September 30, 2024 • 55 mins
In the latest episode of the Smith Publicity podcast, Sandy Smith, CEO of Smith Publicity, sits down with publishing veteran and expert Debra Englander. Debra's vast experience in working with business and non-fiction authors discusses:
- Navigating working with publishers,
- Importance of building an author brand/platform
- What publishers are looking for in decising which authors to sign on--platform vs good content–what is more impactful
- Setting realistic goals for your book
- Working with a business book publicist
- Leveraging pre-order book sales strategies
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast,
offering tips, insights, and advice from the best in the
publishing industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi everyone, and welcome to Smith Publicity's All Things Book
Marketing podcast with us today is a longtime friend, Deborah
Englander or Debbie. I've known Debbie. I think I look
back in my Notes today correspondence going back to at
least twenty twelve, so maybe even longer. But Debbie is
(00:37):
a writer, editor, and book cost coach based in New
York with more than a thirty years experience in the
publishing industry. Debbie's written the Savvy Self Publisher column in
Poets and Writers for a decade, and she's held staff
positions at Cosmopolitan Money magazine and manages as when I
(00:59):
met her, a business book program for more than seventeen
years at John Wiley. Debbie's currently works as a consulting
editor for Post Hill Press and also coaches authors through
the publishing process. And I know over the years, when
someone says, do you know what you want in the
business space that can help me? I know that Debbie
(01:22):
is always on the first name we think of. So
thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Oh my pleasure I love talking about publishing business and
how authors can work with everybody to make their books
a success.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
And it's important I.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Want authors to be informed because I think the publishing
business has changed so dramatically over the last decade or so,
and so there seems to be a little bit of
a disconnect sometimes in terms of expectations or what authors
think whether they're working with their publisher or a company
like yours, and so I always feel, hey, let's educate
(02:02):
everybody and then work will go a lot smoother through
the process.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
That makes sense. And because we've both been in this
industry for a few years, I've seen so many dramatic
changes in publishing paths and opportunities for authors. But I
want to hear from you, Debbie, what do you think
some of the biggest changes are in the publishing space
(02:29):
for authors? And to try to keep it be positive,
what are the good things that are happening for authors?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I think the positive thing is that, let's say a
decade ago, maybe a little bit longer, if you had
a book and you couldn't get either an agent or
a publisher, you sort of put your book away because
you didn't have a lot of options and then largely
because of Amazon. But this notion of indie publishing or
self publishing, which used to really cause everybody to turn
(03:01):
their noses up as if it was a terrible thing.
You couldn't find a publisher there for your self publishing's
that's no longer true. So in my mind when I
look at the path, so let's say there's traditional publishers,
there's hybrid publishers, and then they're self publishing, and there
are advantages and disadvantages to all three types. But for me,
(03:25):
the fact that authors can self publish is really a positive.
For some authors there's a smaller marketplace for their their book,
or maybe they're really writing a legacy memoir and it
deserves to be published, but to a much smaller audience
and a large you know, as Simon and Schuster or
(03:46):
a random house is just not going to take that on.
So to me, when you're thinking about publishing, you have
to say, you know, think about what are your goals.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Do you want to wait a very.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Long time perhaps to get a yes from an agent
or a publisher, or are you ready to do what
it takes to publish your book independently? But have it
really be as good as if it came from a
traditional publisher. So I think where authors sort of go, oh, yeah,
I can just self publish. I'll write it, I'm pretty
good with tech, I'll get it up online. And I
(04:23):
want to remind author is that it's kind of like
there's the writing part of it where you've got your
author hat on, but when you self publish, then you
really have your publisher's hat on, and so you have
to think about doing or working with people who would
do all the tasks that a traditional publisher would do.
So that's the editing of the interior design, the cover design,
(04:46):
understanding why your copy on Amazon is so important, why
you have to choose the right categories, and very few
people can do that on their own. And so that's
where recognizing that sometimes you'resembling a team, but it doesn't
mean it's you know, I know very few authors who
are spending six figulous to self publish. I think most
(05:09):
authors can create a budget and stick within that budget
and have a terrific book that looks professional and that
they can sell.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
So it's all about.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Sort of educating yourself a little bit and also having
realistic expectations of you know, why do you want to
publish your book and what do you expect to.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Happen, Debbie. That's one of the questions of from when
I put my book publicist hat on and we're working
and talking through a potential client. The one question I
say is, Okay, your book's a year old. How are
you define that you look back and say, Wow, this
was a success, I'm so glad I did this, And
(05:53):
that question kind of pauses them like, wow, I've never
really thought of it that way. But if they don't,
if authors don't, I'm understand what they're looking for in
this whole process. It's going to be hard for them
to find the best partners to focus their time, their money,
their attention and creating a book that is going to
(06:14):
match their goals, their expectations, and make the book hopefully
work for them a bit, especially if it's a business
book that they're using to continue to share their ideas,
help people grow their thought, leadership and brand. And as
you said, it doesn't have to be with a big
(06:34):
giant publisher behind the scene. It can be beautifully done
through indie, self published, or the beautiful hybrid options that
are out there now.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I think authors tend to think sales like I need
to sell five thousand books, ten thousand books. That's a
pretty lofty number these days. I mean, I look at
book scan for post Till, which is a traditional smaller publisher. Sure,
but when I report them book scan numbers to some
of our authors, they're sure that I'm leaving off digits,
(07:08):
Like even new books sales can be modest.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So they can be.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Modest, you know, And that's true with Random House and
Simon and Schuster and lots of other publishers. So you
can't just think in terms of book sales in terms
of success. And so I often say, you're going to
be talking about this book far into the future, what
do you expect, what do you expect to happen, and
what will you be doing? And like you people go, well,
(07:37):
I just wanted to sell. And I'm like, yes, we
all want that, but specifically, what do you want happen?
Speaker 4 (07:44):
And when pressed sometimes it will.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Be particularly for business authors, well I'd like to get
a higher a bigger honorarium if I'm going out to speak,
or I'd like to have a book that I can
hand out every time I'm at a large company meeting
to spread the word about my philosophy or what I'm doing,
(08:08):
and those are very realistic goals. But in fact, maybe
you don't sell as many books online or through Amazon,
but you're speaking regularly, and whoever invites you to speak
is buying hundreds, maybe thousands of books. Well that's I mean,
from a publisher's point of view, that's a very successful
(08:31):
book because those speaking gigs are likely to last for
a very long time. So I often tell my authors
it's a long tail. It is a marathon. It's not
a sprint. Yes, certainly you expect for a second week's
sales when you're launching and getting publicity.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
You'd like those numbers to be good.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
But I've certainly had books that have sold modestly and
then a year later, just like the author's promised, suddenly
they're getting more speaking gigs, and I'm starting to see
weeks where we're selling five hundred, seven hundred copies, and
the publisher says, like, what happened, Like, you know, we
didn't have the author on a show or anything, and
(09:14):
I'm like, well, no, finally some of the bookings he
had been pursuing came through, and they've been buying the
books for everyone who's attending, and that to me is great.
So this notion of just focusing on those first couple
of weeks or I really have to hit a best
seller list, to me is it takes a lot of effort,
(09:35):
a lot of time, and it's just sort of not
playing the game well in my view.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And it's very shortsighted too. Your book, especially these non
fiction books, they have evergreen topics. It's not like three
weeks after the publication date, it's like, Okay, that's done
and on to the next. That book is going to
last you for a long time. The exposure of the
credibility this book, if you do it right, and even
(10:02):
our slice of the world with media, when you get
those media placements, whether it's before, during, or after a
book launch, you add those to your bio, to your website,
to your Amazon page. As you said earlier, your Amazon
page is such an important tool for algorithms and find
people finding you that the credibility that a book brings
(10:26):
in any media attention that a book brings, that's going
to last three years. And so the book then is
part of your part of your bio, part of your brand,
and we see that every day because we work on
book launches, yes, and we try to get that pre
launch and get as much excitement around we call the
birthday of the book and publication date. But we have
(10:49):
clients that we've been working with Debbie since twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, the same book because we getting them media
attention for their idea in their work, and they've got
this book that's drawing new opportunities for them, whether it's speaking,
new clients, higher fees, growing their network, growing their thought leadership,
(11:11):
and their book is a beautiful asset that goes well
beyond the publication date. And you mentioned, you know, the
bulk book sales. That is something we tell every author.
Make sure on your website that people know that your
book is available for bulk purchases and how to do
it to make it as easy as possible for people
(11:33):
to buy your books in bulk.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Because that those sales really make a difference.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
And in the best of all worlds, when someone's a
very good speaker, they're speaking, everybody at the event is
getting a book. But then we've seen Amazon sales also,
you know where BookScan scales for that week very high.
Why because the speaker, the author as speaker was so
(12:00):
effective that people then spread the word and say.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Hey, I'm you know, I'm in my corporate retreat.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
You've got to buy this book. You know, it's so good,
this will help you. And so it's just word of
mouth and we've had a few authors where that continues.
So not only is it one of our best selling
books each week, but we're also getting you know, the
bonus of the bulk sales.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, it's wonderful. Now going back to your point, especially,
I think about the traditional agent path for the different
the different types of publishing and the traditional publishing, there's
the hybrid publishing and the self publishing. Big general categorizations there.
(12:47):
You mentioned timeline. What do you see is the timeline
if you have someone who says, I have a book
and I want to get it published traditionally, what are
you seeing as what do you tell people is the
likely publication date? You're looking at twelve months, eighteen months,
(13:07):
two years, three years.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Unfortunately, something between eighteen months and two years, because part
of it is the scheduling of a publisher. So most
traditional publishers when they get their manuscript, it's eighteen months
to two years.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
But till you get a yes.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Or if you're trying to first get an agent, which
in some cases is advantageous because an agent then can
then submit your book to you know, all sorts of publishers,
regional university presses, all the traditional publishers. So you know,
you need a proposal and that will take a little time.
(13:52):
And then let's say you send it to half a
dozen agents and you wait, you know, hoping that you'll
get a yes. If you get a yes, the agent
may still ask for revisions to the proposal. Then the
agent would send it out. It used to be I
would tell folks, oh, you'll usually hear between six.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Weeks and two months.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Nope, publishers are taking much, you know, even first for
the agents. But publishers used to respond in kind of
a two month fashion, and now I'm finding that that's elongated.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
I don't know if it's smaller staff or you know, sometimes.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
The editors are wearing multiple hats and doing different things,
so you could have, you know, I hate to say
it as long as a year, sort of in that
stop and start where you're waiting to hear it's been submitted.
So when an author comes to me, I will usually say,
what's your preference, and most authors, understandably will say, well,
(14:54):
i'd really like to find a traditional publisher, and I'll say, okay,
it's as long as you're going to be patient. And
then I'll say, I still think you should have a
sort of time frame. So let's say I've worked with them,
we have a great proposal, they submit it to agents,
they get some nose. They'll say, okay, let's can we
(15:17):
try some others. I'll say yes, depending on whether we're
getting any positive feedback of agents sort of saying look,
it's not right for me because I've had a similar
subject a client writing on the same subject. If they're
getting no feedback at all or negative feedback, then I
(15:38):
will usually say, look, we could keep doing this, but
you're close to finishing your book.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You want to have it so.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
That you can speak, or you want to use it
in some online training.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Can we should We start to think about self publishing,
and some authors are very open to it.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
You know, some authors kind of in their heels and say,
you know, I don't care how long it takes. We
can submit to fifty different agents, you know many many publishers,
and you do you know, I'm online and on social media.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
There will be people.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Who say, yes, I had fifty five rejections, but then
I found, you know, the perfect agent for my book
and it's out on submission now, and that's fine.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
But not everybody wants to wait.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Sure, especially if your book is on AI for example,
and what's happening in two years is likely very irrelevant
to what's we're writing today versus what a book in
two years is going to say, unless you're really in
theory as opposed to actuality. But yeah, there's there's not
(16:47):
many books that an author is that I've spoken with
who want to wait that two plus years to get
their ideas out. They've got, as you said, conferences, they've
got goals, they've got plans for this book, and they
often have more than one book. So to get that
path started, there's options besides.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Traditional even I will say in post Hill does this,
We will do some books print on demand. Particularly one
of my colleague colleagues publishes a lot of sort of
current affairs books, and in fact, he had some books
related to the Israeli conflict and there was you know,
even waiting six.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Months or nine months would have hurt the book.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So he essentially says we will publish it as quickly
as as we can. It will be available online if
we do it through Ingram bookstores can also order it.
And interestingly, the author said, well, but couldn't I do
that myself? And our response is yes, you could. But
(17:54):
essentially we are getting it out quickly. You still have
a publish Sure's name, which mattered to this author. And
other than the speed to market, we're still doing the editorial,
the you know, the cover design, the online listing, and
all the things that the author would have had to
(18:16):
handle himself. And I think other publishers are. They're certainly
doing this sometimes when it's a question of should we
keep the book in print, you know, maybe it's an
older title, they are doing print on demand and it's
it's good because it keeps the book around. And then
some publishers are saying, yeah, we have to you know,
we're going to rush out this book for the election.
(18:38):
The only way to do it really is print on
demand because printers are backed up for months and you
can't immediately kind of rush that process or bump someone.
You know, another publisher maybe has book the printer because
they're doing two hundred thousand copies of a best selling
novelist on his tenth book, right, So, I think, you know,
(18:58):
even authors who are talking to publishers and agents, if
there's a very compelling reason why they need the book
out sooner, they should say, hey, just so you know,
I understand this is your normal schedule. I've moved books
up sometimes on you know, not print on demand. But
(19:19):
an author said, hey, I just I'm doing a ten
X talk. Any chance we could get the book out
two months sooner or I'm on a panel at south
By Southwest. I didn't know about it till they sent
me an acceptance. Can we move it up? We can't always,
but that's the kind of information that authors should be sharing,
whether it's agent or a publisher an editor, because that
(19:43):
can make a difference in the scheduling.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Sure, from a publicity perspective, I've had conversations with publishers.
There was one PCOS Awareness Month, which is I think
polycystic ovarian syndrome. I can't remember the exact few years
back now, and the book was coming out in October,
but PCOS Awareness Month was September and I said, is
(20:06):
there any way we can move it up six weeks
or so? And the publisher was able to and we
were able to get an enormous amount of media building
up to that because of the awareness month. And it
would have been so sad if we had all this
coverage coming and it was yes, check back in in
six weeks to get this book. So it's it's so
(20:27):
nice when publishers they want to make the book a
success too.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
So and it's finding out about a month. You know,
you can you can google you know, almost any any
any condition, any ailment, any situation. And essentially, I mean
I do that depending on the topic of a book,
I will ask the author, you know, is there what's
your ideal time or is there something I should know about,
(20:53):
whether it's a mental health awareness month or some you know,
challenge related promotion, And of course you want to tie
into it, and that's usually not so difficult, but authors,
you know, it's important that authors understand.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
The schedule is there. Yes, some of it is.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
A larger company publishing a lot of books and they're
scheduling them and you don't want say, three personal finance
books coming out the same month, so they're you know,
they're looking at a lot of things versus an author
who just sort of says, hey, I want to get
my book out there. But authors have to understand if
you rush to market, they have to step up as well,
(21:38):
because they will have less time to review the copy
edited manuscript, less time to do the final proofread and.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Along the way. You know, if you.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Shorten a nine month process to three months, sometimes you
know a few more errors get in, even though you
know fifteen people may have read it, looked at the copy,
and there are still mistakes.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
You know, and you can correct them. I mean authors
should understand.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Sometimes if I have an author read and the last
version of the manuscript, let's say they're recording the audio,
I know that I'm going to get an email of
all the word changes they'd like to make, and they're
simply the manuscript has been proved several times, but somehow
reading it, they're like, oh that's the worst word.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I have to.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Change this word, or I've left out a preposition or something.
And then what I say is, look, when we do
a reprint, we'll correct it, but we can correct it
immediately in the E version, which is good.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I just had an author recently tell me multiple multiple
time published author that she now insists on reading doing
the audiobook recording ahead of time for that exact reason,
because she's had so many things she'd like to change
or to do once she's done that. But then it
(23:04):
got me to thinking, maybe you should do this not
officially as the audiobook, but as exercise yourself, as if
you are recording the audiobook, just to see how it sounds.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
I will tell authors, particularly authors who are self publishing,
when you get that final version, ask someone else not
so familiar with the book to do the actual proof reading.
But then you read it aloud, because that's the best
way to catch any errors. So if I've worked on
a book for months and I've been talking to the author,
(23:37):
when I look at it the pages, I will miss
things because I'm reading what I think is there from
having looked at earlier versions. I mean, every once in
a while will when for a really important book, I
will have to ask my husband, like, who hasn't read
the book at all? Could you look at this proof
because evitably will find things. And I think it's the
(24:02):
same thing with the authors. When you're looking at the page,
you're seeing what you think you've written, but you know
maybe in the you know several stages between you turning
it in and it's getting into pages. You know, mistakes
can happen.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And that actually brings me to a question I had
for you. What one of the themes we're doing here
is talking with I'm calling them heroes behind the book,
the people that you know make the authors look great,
and you know, editors are right at the top of
that hero list in the book world. Tell me, Debbie,
(24:40):
what what a typical day looks like for you? And
you can You've got you wear so many hats, so
maybe pick your editing hat or your book coach hat.
But I'd love to hear I have authors here what
what you do on a day to day basis.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
So wearing my editor's hat, it'll be check my inbox,
and so some of it will be new proposals, so
I'll spend some time reading. I might immediately go back
and say, you know, I think I'm interested, but maybe
I have some questions. So, for example, in the marketing plan,
they might have said, you know, I speak regularly, and
(25:19):
I might.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Ask the author, what does regularly speak?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Like?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Can you send me I mean, you know stuff that
I want to know, like are you speaking once a
month to twenty people or do you have a calendar
the past six months, the upcome the next six months?
What when you say you're active on social media, please
tell me and be honest.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
I mean I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yes, sometimes I will go look on LinkedIn, but or
I'll go to the author website.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
But I want the ammunition.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I need to decide whether I can then take this
to our editorial meeting and is this something I want
to pursue?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
And then you know, the emails.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Will be everything from I hate my back cover copy,
can we revise it? Or we've sent out some versions
of a cover and the author gives feedback of you know,
I like this one, but I really like the type
on the other one, and can we change the this?
So it's books had written. My authors are at various stages,
(26:23):
from about to be published or very early on. Maybe
somebody's sending me three chapters and saying can you give
me some feedback? And I will usually do sort of
big picture of is it understandable? You know, do you
have a great way to open and close chapters? I
(26:44):
think one of the mistakes authors make is particularly first
time authors, They've got a lot to say, and so
I get ten pages single spaced with no subheads, no
sidebar boxes, no call outs, you know, no subheads. And
so I'll say, hey, remember this is not like a
novel where people want to turn the pages. This will
(27:07):
be a design book and you really don't want to
have page after page of just type. So we need
to come up with interesting ways to have your book
be more user friendly.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
And then it could be you know, a call with.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
A publicist and the author to make sure we're on
the same page thinking about do they have are they
going to be doing any traveling? So let's say, if
an author is already going to a particular city for work,
could we piggyback? Could we arrange a book signing and
then maybe get them on a local morning show to
(27:45):
promote the signing.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
The next day. Sometimes it's help I want to have.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
I'm speaking at a church and I'm actually dealing with
this right now. I've got an event before three hundred
people at a church in Connecticut.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Can you get books there and somebody to sell them to?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Which I say, well, no, Like, we can't get someone
up to Connecticut because most of the staff is in Nashville.
And what I'm trying to do is see if I
can get a local indie bookstore to come to the
event to sell books because or else the author is like,
if I'm going there, I want to sell books. So
(28:26):
I think I think the days of an editor just
spending his or her time looking for wonderful books to
publish and then sitting back with you know, the electronic
version of the red pencil editing books or writing cover
copy that's not quite accurate these days. That's a small
(28:48):
part of my job, and the rest of the time
I'm you know, working with the designers in house. I'm
working with my publicity team. I'm talking to the publisher about, Hey,
I think there's an opportunity have come. It's not yet
up on Target or Walmart. You know, maybe some folks
want to order the book there. So I think that
(29:09):
I think most editors are now wearing well, have you've.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Got your your talent acquisition hat, you have your day
to day editing and concept and making the book as
good as it can, making sure the book is being
marketed and publicized, and then all the details behind the
scenes of the day to day questions from the book cover,
the back cover copy, and the distribution team and the
(29:37):
retail channel so that's your your day must feel very
you know what am I doing this this exact minute.
I like working that way.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I like I think it makes it more it's more interesting.
And you know, I sort of have my some of
my favorite authors who you know, who are just delightful
to work with and are very glad to sort of
be partners in the process. And what I tell authors is,
you've worked really hard on your book.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
The actual publishing.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Process can be complicated, but it should not be painful.
And I'd like to think that people along the way
will be helpful and we'll ask, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
We'll answer questions.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
So I always tell my authors the only stupid questions
are the ones you don't ask and you try to
guess that. So, you know, we might be just shortly
before publication and we'll have our publicity call and press
releases approved. The author understands, you know, f us pitching podcasts.
(30:41):
We're waiting to see if the trades have reviewed the book,
and then I'll sort of remind them, you know, hey,
if somebody throws you a curveball question, please come back
to us. And they're like, well, what do you mean,
I'm like, well, you're talking about your book. What if
somebody asks you to speak and you're not, and it's
right before the pub date, Well maybe we could ship
(31:01):
the books from the printer and get them there in time.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
So it's you know, gee, if it's.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
A charity that wants to order fifty books but Amazon
isn't discounting, you could order it from the publisher and
I can probably get authorization to offer a higher discount
to make that sale happen. So authors shouldn't be you know,
shouldn't try to figure everything out themselves. I know, sometimes
(31:28):
it's tough to reach people. You know, sometimes I have
a you know, fifteen emails when I check my mail early.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
In the morning.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
But it really is partnership and we all want books
to succeed. So communication is key. And this is really
probably what I complain about the most is for a
business of communication, people can be.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
So bad at it. So I have authors who literally go.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
And and you know, it's sometimes I think, Okay, the
manuscript's going to be late. I'm disappointed, but we'll reschedule,
but we'll send version of the manuscript and say we
need this back by this date. If we're going to
keep the pup date oh, no, answer you now, my
(32:22):
production editor reminds them. I send an email saying, hey,
come on, I understand if there's been some emergency and
you're going to know, yes, please tell me and we
will adjust the schedule.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
I know.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I tend to pick up the phone and talk to
people sometimes. My colleagues, particularly production editors, are really busy
because they might be managing fifty titles at a time,
so they tend to communicate via email. So I will
actually tell authors I'll say, look, copy me on everything.
Certain details are handled by the production editor, but if
(32:59):
you're really stick, you can call me and I'll at
least get you in answer.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
And the same.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I often have authors say why can't we talk to
the designer, because the process normally is we ask authors,
did you have something in mind? You know, what did
you envision for the jacket? Do we need to match
certain colors on your website or a typeface? And some
authors are incredibly specific and they'll say, here's three covers
(33:29):
on Amazon. I really like, can you try to model these?
Or here's the exact and they give us the exact
number of the color they want. But then they'll, you know,
maybe we show them as a design that they don't like,
and they're like, it really would be easier if I
could talk to the designer, and I have to say,
you know, we tried that when we were publishing fewer books,
(33:49):
and then the designers fell behind. So no, I'm sorry,
but you need to use words to communicate about what
you like or don't like or what you want in
the jacket. And I know sometimes that's frustrating because authors
just feel like it will just be a five minute conversation,
and I have to say, unfortunately, it would be a
five minute conversation for every author, and my designers would
(34:12):
not have any time to design. So there's there can
be issues along the way, but I just think communicate.
Send an email, you know, emergency, send a text. I mean,
I don't love getting text. But I have authors who
will be like, you know this happened, or I went
into a bookstore and I'm doing the event tomorrow and
they say, the books never arrived. Well, if you don't
(34:34):
tell me that, you can't help them exactly. I mean
I may not be able to, but I need to
be armed with the with the information, and I just
you know, industrywide, I just wish people would recognize that
a long time ago, we didn't have cell phones, we.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Couldn't communicate via text.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
And somehow we published a lot of books, which meant
that people actually you know, wrote emails or picked up
the phone to call. And sometimes I think we could
accomplish a lot more like just have a five minute
phone call rather than half a dozen emails going back
and forth.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yes, it can cut so many questions and write to
the chase and all the tone and questions, and a
five minute phone call can save an hour of back
and forth by email, for sure.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yeah, And I think some of it is we are
so accustomed because we're working in many cases virtually Yes,
and you know, I'm dealing with authors who are all
around the world. But even so, it comes down to
your person. I'm a person, we're publishing the book. Let's
figure out a way to communicate effectively. And it's not
(35:50):
I mean I have to I have to say. I
will call out some agents as well, who don't always respond.
So agents can be very responsive when they're negotiating a
contract or waiting for a and an offer on a book,
but sometimes when there's a major issue with the author,
and I'd really like a little support. And I understand
(36:11):
the agent is the author's advocate, but when publisher and
author are really at loggerheads, I want the agent involved,
even if it's just to be kind of a middle
person to help negotiate and navigate a tricky situation.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
As you said, DeBie, everybody wants the book to succeed.
So let's all get our communicative brains together and get
to get to some solutions instead of not asking the
questions and missing opportunities. And you know that's something we
see here too, is are authors your authors, they're brilliant
(36:50):
in their field, they're they're usually top top notch experts
in a particular area. They just don't know publicity. They
don't no publishing world. They don't know all the ins
and outs. And that's okay. And so those questions of
the opportunities and to navigate this getting a book from
(37:13):
idea concept to out the door, Yeah, those questions. As
you said, there's no bad questions. Just ask them please,
because we can't help you if you're not if we're
not all on the same page. And one question that
I have for you too, you said earlier looking at
(37:35):
a book proposal and talking about the platform and the speaking.
This might be a very complicated answer, but would you
prefer an author with a decent book and outstanding platform,
lots of followers, lots of big newsletter lists, big brand,
(37:57):
or a truly remarkable book and idea with a modest brand.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Oh tricky question.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I have to say that honestly, because the business is
so competitive these days. Unfortunately, content can be secondary to
the platform. So if it's a really strong platform, I
will have an easier job getting my publisher and colleagues
to say, yes, let's publish this book. And then really
(38:31):
it's my job to work with the author to perhaps
improve the book and make sure it's the best that
it can be. You know, sometimes there is a spectacular
book and I will spring it to editorial meeting and
I will really be ready for a little bit of
(38:51):
a fight, as the publisher says, but you know, deb
the author has really modest social media and I'll like,
I get it.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
But book is the.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Content is so strong that I'm willing to work with
the author and tell him or her that these are
the six things they need to do well before the
book is out. And sometimes it's enough, but it is
much easier for me to get a yes when there's
already a platform, And I think, frankly that's that's the
(39:24):
challenge for many authors of good idea. But how will
the publisher help to have the book stand out and
sell a lot? The platform is just important these days,
and you know, for better or worse, some people have
huge platforms. And so that's the comparison of okay, if
(39:47):
you're not already doing this. I mean, I think the
mistake that authors make is underestimating their platforms. So authors
will say, well, I'm only on LinkedIn, and I'm like,
don't say only on LinkedIn, because in fact, LinkedIn, I
think is a great way to mention books. You know,
are you contributing on LinkedIn? You know, are you posting
(40:10):
some articles? So okay, you're on LinkedIn, you're not on
the other social platforms, That's fine, what else can you
be doing? And so sometimes I will literally press an
author you know who perhaps the marketing section is the
weakest part of the proposal, and I'll say, hey, you,
you know, you have three graduate degrees.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Do you think one of your alumni magazine would feature you?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Particularly if they've done something notable And they're like, well, Actually,
I'm active in the alumni association, so I bet they would.
I'm like, okay, we now have another bullet in the
marketing platform. So sometimes authors are only thinking of you know,
do I have a TV show? Do ivery radio show?
Do I have you know, one hundred thousand fans or followers? No,
(40:57):
there are other aspects to a platform, but authors should
never say when the book is published, I will do
the following or after I sign a publishing agreement. I
will that to me. I mean, I get those proposals
and I'm putting an X next to it, because that
shows me that we you haven't done any research about
(41:20):
the business and that you're going to rely solely on
the publisher's efforts. And that doesn't work these days anymore.
So I'd rather if it's I'm waiting until the book
is published, that's almost always a reason to reject the book.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
I'd rather see I have a website.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
It will get updated as I start doing bookings related
to the book. I am also active on LinkedIn, So
everybody has to start while they're writing to be building
their platform, not waiting until a month before the pub date.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
No, No, that is the worst time to begin. I
get well. I guess no time is too late. But
if you have big goals and you're investing your time
and energy in a book, your brand and your platform
have to come first as you are planning this launch.
And another asset that authors tend to forget is there
(42:19):
what we call your friends in high places? Who do
you know who we can borrow their social clout. So
if you are friends with in the publishing world, for example,
Dori Clark, she's got a beautiful name, and when my
book comes out, she is going to promote it and
to kind of put this list together, whether it's household
(42:42):
names or people influential in their field, let's get their
names together. What is the ask and what's the timing
of the ask? Because we can borrow from other people's platforms,
hopefully as you're continuing to build your own very aggressively.
And we do like authors who are on social media,
but I'd rather have one go deep into one platform
(43:04):
than do a little bit on all of them.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Absolutely agree with that. Yeah, And it depends what you know.
Pick one that you're comfortable with. So I understand a
lot of people are find X difficult these days, or
maybe it's too political, so just do LinkedIn, or if
you've got you know, more of a lighter subject, then
(43:26):
maybe it's Instagram because you can post, you know, photos
related to the book. So just think, you know, thinking
about that also thinking about particularly for business authors, sometimes
they'll say, well, I've been written about, I have good
journalistic contacts, and then sometimes we'll actually say, okay, let's
(43:47):
have a list of your ten contacts. Do you want
to you have one ask? Do you want to ask
for an endorsement or would you rather see if they
would post about your book on their social platform? So
sometimes authors haven't quite They're like, but this is a
really big name and I'm like, yes, but you have
(44:09):
some other wonderful endorsers. Would you ask this person to
promote when the book is available or to have you
on his or her show. Maybe that's more valuable than
the back cover endorsement.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Exactly what is the ask is that maybe they have
a podcast, right, maybe they have a social platform. There's
all different ways that people can support an author beyond
the blurb. So that is that's something we work with
because especially if an author has a podcast, they're often
networked with many other podcast hosts and let let's put
(44:44):
that to work for you so that we're getting as
many people supporting the book. And most people, when you
are friends with them and professional friends and admire the work,
they want to help you. So that's something we work
with to really help an author understand and all the
different paths and assets they have to build awareness and
(45:05):
visibility for their book, and they just, oh, I haven't
thought about that.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
And really one of the most important things and you
must see this is I mean, you want to tell
people about your book. But I have authors who say, oh, great,
I just signed the contract, I'm delivering the book in
a month.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
Can I start talking about it?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
And I usually say no, because no one can buy
the book yet. So to me, a lot of the
activity has to wait until the book is available online
for pre sale, and then even you know, we'll talk about, Okay,
what's the strategy and you don't want to assault people.
(45:45):
I'm not a big fan of make my book a
bestseller emails to friends, but talking about it too soon,
what can someone do If there's no call to action,
then you've kind of wasted your pitch, your promotion. So
what we'll do is once it's available for sale and
that's roughly six months before the pub date. We'll send
(46:08):
the link to the author and then that really starts
a conversation.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
And I wish I.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Could say there's a formula for tell everybody to buy
the book, like I think six months ahead of time
is a long time.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Like other than.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Other than tickets, there aren't too many things that people
will will purchase, you know, month. But we also want
to see pre sales because we're setting the print run
for the book about four months before pub date. So
we'll look at a handful of pre orders and the
publisher will say, well, how many do you want me
(46:45):
to print? Like we've seen so little activity, and because
we're a smaller publisher, we tend to be more conservative
in our in our print runs. So I tell authors
you need to tasteless promote it. We want to see
some pre orders because that's really important these days.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
And I'm sorry, but the timing is.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
A business decision around the production. Yep, that's that is
a great point, because I understand that the biggest swell
of pre orders comes in maybe three weeks before pub date.
Because of that exact point you brought up, the people
really going to wait six months or four months. But
(47:29):
I know that there are very creative ways that authors
can you get the pre order confirmation, then you can
come to the website and download a workbook.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Or there are ways.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
There are ways to make it work and to incentivize readers,
you know, to purchase the books. But I mean the
main thing, and this is true for all publishers, is
really because Amazon accounts for the majority of sales these days,
you need to see pre orders on Amazon. When Amazon
starts to see let's say steady, even if they're modest numbers,
(48:03):
Amazon is thinking, oh, there's there's interest in this book.
We need to take in a decent number of books
to have them available at pub date. If you're just
seeing a handful of pre orders, Amazon might say, you know,
let's see what happens if there's a big publicity hit,
or we'll just wait to see if the book sells.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
And you don't want that.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
You want Amazon well stocked so that it's ready should
there be a big publicity hit and everybody's ordering the book.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Right right, That's a that's a great point. It's a
there's so much behind the scenes that authors in the
general public just don't realize. The fine balance of that
magic eight ball, the magic ball that that in the
publishing world, we need to try to make decisions today
(48:53):
that will really support the success of a book. But
it's hard, it's it's a lot of a lot of gut,
I would say, right.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
And guessing and guessing, and then really authors need to
understand that even when everything seems to be going well,
it's out of our control. So I'm thinking of all
the authors who had terrific morning shows books right around
(49:24):
last October seventh, or you know, during the pandemic, or
you know, during the start of the Ukraine War where
for days not only were you know, authors just were
canceled because it was all about current events. But then
people weren't necessarily buying books either because they just were
(49:46):
not in a good frame of mind. So we can
plan everything well, but then you know, it's kind of
like you plan a vacation and you're not expecting a
hurricane during the off season.
Speaker 4 (49:57):
But it happens. So you just have you know, you
have to plan and plan and be ready and then
you learn to pivot.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
I mean, fortunately these days there are still things that
you can do online. Much things do get rebooked, but
you know, I've had authors who are like, oh, it's
ruined now because this show. You know, No, it's not ruined.
And just so you know, I think you know, you're
in a group of many authors but the same pubdate
(50:25):
who also had media that was canceled. So some of
it will get rescheduled and we'll do the best we can,
but there's no point getting angry at editor or publicist.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
It's out of our control as well. It's just world events.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Right, and that and that big show shouldn't be the
only measure of success because that's in realistic, real life
one media parents. While it's fantastic, that should be one
pin on many that are going to move the book.
And we often tell authors, especially in the lifestyle consumer space,
(51:03):
We've had many on Good Morning America Today show and
sometimes book sales come up after sometimes they don't. And well,
we had one author on an affiliate ABC show that
then got sent out to twenty other shows and sold
seven thousand books in forty eight hours. And that was
(51:24):
not nearly as quote impressive as say the Today Show,
but boy it packed much more of a punch. So
we can really look at the niche media the other
opportunities to keep things going, and that was long after
the publication date, and the publisher was quite happy and
just unexpected because you don't know. Something could go a
(51:46):
media placement and magic happens, and other times it can
be the best media placement, but the public says not interested.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
So you've had that, and it's so disappointing when authors
in a one of my colleagues had an author on
sixty Minutes this summer and we thought great, it was
a brief lift and it was such a small number
of books that we were really surprised because a few
years ago sixty minutes you would have sold lots of books.
(52:16):
So we you know, no appearance, you can't guarantee book
sales will reach a certain level for any appearance.
Speaker 4 (52:24):
You hope the author does well.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
It's certainly you now have a clip that you can
use to get some more media, but we can't say
if you appear on this show, we're going to sell
X number of books.
Speaker 4 (52:37):
There's no way to guarantee that.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
No, No, that's a that's a kind of a good
note as we at time here, but it's a it's
good for authors to educate themselves on the potential of
a book that doesn't come just right at pub date,
there's so much more hope and planning and to start
(53:01):
as early as possible in your author brand because that's
going to give your book the best chance for success
at the agent publishing world, and then of course after,
because the publisher is not the one who's going to
do the heavy lifting when it comes to book sales.
And something that you said, and I would love it
(53:23):
to be a big quote somewhere, perhaps on on every
author's website is see if I can get this right
from earlier in the conversation today, the publishing process is complicated,
but it shouldn't be painful.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
Yes, and I'll stick with that. I'll stick with that.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
You stick with that, and especially when you have someone
like you, Debbie on your side, might it might be complicated,
but your job is to help them not to be
as painful of a process. So so thank you for
those those wide words. I think that that's good, a
beautiful quote for authors who are looking to educate themselves
(54:04):
on how to best navigate getting a book out to market.
But I want to thank you Debbie Englander, who can
be found on x or Twitter at Deborah d e
b R a Englander or on LinkedIn it's Devorah again
the e b r a Englander consulting editor Post Tail Press.
(54:28):
And if you have a book that you'd like to
perhaps have some help with, Babe DeBie can be your advocate,
helping you through all the different phases of a book.
Because your your hat's making me tired, from designed to
distribution to finding a good home. But as always wanted
(54:50):
to think, thank the listeners. Here at All Things Book
Marketing you can find more episodes and invite you to
come to this Smith Publicity website we have our newsletter.
Or if you have a book and you're curious about
what media attention, publicity branding can do for your book
(55:12):
or author brand, we'd love to hear from you at
a website Smith Publicity dot com or Info at Smith
Publicity And thank you all.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Smith
Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast. To reach us and
learn about our many services, visit Smith Publicity dot com
or send us an email to info at Smith Publicity
dot com.
Welcome to the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast,
offering tips, insights, and advice from the best in the
publishing industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi everyone, and welcome to Smith Publicity's All Things Book
Marketing podcast with us today is a longtime friend, Deborah
Englander or Debbie. I've known Debbie. I think I look
back in my Notes today correspondence going back to at
least twenty twelve, so maybe even longer. But Debbie is
(00:37):
a writer, editor, and book cost coach based in New
York with more than a thirty years experience in the
publishing industry. Debbie's written the Savvy Self Publisher column in
Poets and Writers for a decade, and she's held staff
positions at Cosmopolitan Money magazine and manages as when I
(00:59):
met her, a business book program for more than seventeen
years at John Wiley. Debbie's currently works as a consulting
editor for Post Hill Press and also coaches authors through
the publishing process. And I know over the years, when
someone says, do you know what you want in the
business space that can help me? I know that Debbie
(01:22):
is always on the first name we think of. So
thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Oh my pleasure I love talking about publishing business and
how authors can work with everybody to make their books
a success.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
And it's important I.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Want authors to be informed because I think the publishing
business has changed so dramatically over the last decade or so,
and so there seems to be a little bit of
a disconnect sometimes in terms of expectations or what authors
think whether they're working with their publisher or a company
like yours, and so I always feel, hey, let's educate
(02:02):
everybody and then work will go a lot smoother through
the process.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
That makes sense. And because we've both been in this
industry for a few years, I've seen so many dramatic
changes in publishing paths and opportunities for authors. But I
want to hear from you, Debbie, what do you think
some of the biggest changes are in the publishing space
(02:29):
for authors? And to try to keep it be positive,
what are the good things that are happening for authors?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I think the positive thing is that, let's say a
decade ago, maybe a little bit longer, if you had
a book and you couldn't get either an agent or
a publisher, you sort of put your book away because
you didn't have a lot of options and then largely
because of Amazon. But this notion of indie publishing or
self publishing, which used to really cause everybody to turn
(03:01):
their noses up as if it was a terrible thing.
You couldn't find a publisher there for your self publishing's
that's no longer true. So in my mind when I
look at the path, so let's say there's traditional publishers,
there's hybrid publishers, and then they're self publishing, and there
are advantages and disadvantages to all three types. But for me,
(03:25):
the fact that authors can self publish is really a positive.
For some authors there's a smaller marketplace for their their book,
or maybe they're really writing a legacy memoir and it
deserves to be published, but to a much smaller audience
and a large you know, as Simon and Schuster or
(03:46):
a random house is just not going to take that on.
So to me, when you're thinking about publishing, you have
to say, you know, think about what are your goals.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Do you want to wait a very.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Long time perhaps to get a yes from an agent
or a publisher, or are you ready to do what
it takes to publish your book independently? But have it
really be as good as if it came from a
traditional publisher. So I think where authors sort of go, oh, yeah,
I can just self publish. I'll write it, I'm pretty
good with tech, I'll get it up online. And I
(04:23):
want to remind author is that it's kind of like
there's the writing part of it where you've got your
author hat on, but when you self publish, then you
really have your publisher's hat on, and so you have
to think about doing or working with people who would
do all the tasks that a traditional publisher would do.
So that's the editing of the interior design, the cover design,
(04:46):
understanding why your copy on Amazon is so important, why
you have to choose the right categories, and very few
people can do that on their own. And so that's
where recognizing that sometimes you'resembling a team, but it doesn't
mean it's you know, I know very few authors who
are spending six figulous to self publish. I think most
(05:09):
authors can create a budget and stick within that budget
and have a terrific book that looks professional and that
they can sell.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
So it's all about.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Sort of educating yourself a little bit and also having
realistic expectations of you know, why do you want to
publish your book and what do you expect to.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Happen, Debbie. That's one of the questions of from when
I put my book publicist hat on and we're working
and talking through a potential client. The one question I
say is, Okay, your book's a year old. How are
you define that you look back and say, Wow, this
was a success, I'm so glad I did this, And
(05:53):
that question kind of pauses them like, wow, I've never
really thought of it that way. But if they don't,
if authors don't, I'm understand what they're looking for in
this whole process. It's going to be hard for them
to find the best partners to focus their time, their money,
their attention and creating a book that is going to
(06:14):
match their goals, their expectations, and make the book hopefully
work for them a bit, especially if it's a business
book that they're using to continue to share their ideas,
help people grow their thought, leadership and brand. And as
you said, it doesn't have to be with a big
(06:34):
giant publisher behind the scene. It can be beautifully done
through indie, self published, or the beautiful hybrid options that
are out there now.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
I think authors tend to think sales like I need
to sell five thousand books, ten thousand books. That's a
pretty lofty number these days. I mean, I look at
book scan for post Till, which is a traditional smaller publisher. Sure,
but when I report them book scan numbers to some
of our authors, they're sure that I'm leaving off digits,
(07:08):
Like even new books sales can be modest.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
So they can be.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Modest, you know, And that's true with Random House and
Simon and Schuster and lots of other publishers. So you
can't just think in terms of book sales in terms
of success. And so I often say, you're going to
be talking about this book far into the future, what
do you expect, what do you expect to happen, and
what will you be doing? And like you people go, well,
(07:37):
I just wanted to sell. And I'm like, yes, we
all want that, but specifically, what do you want happen?
Speaker 4 (07:44):
And when pressed sometimes it will.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Be particularly for business authors, well I'd like to get
a higher a bigger honorarium if I'm going out to speak,
or I'd like to have a book that I can
hand out every time I'm at a large company meeting
to spread the word about my philosophy or what I'm doing,
(08:08):
and those are very realistic goals. But in fact, maybe
you don't sell as many books online or through Amazon,
but you're speaking regularly, and whoever invites you to speak
is buying hundreds, maybe thousands of books. Well that's I mean,
from a publisher's point of view, that's a very successful
(08:31):
book because those speaking gigs are likely to last for
a very long time. So I often tell my authors
it's a long tail. It is a marathon. It's not
a sprint. Yes, certainly you expect for a second week's
sales when you're launching and getting publicity.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
You'd like those numbers to be good.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
But I've certainly had books that have sold modestly and
then a year later, just like the author's promised, suddenly
they're getting more speaking gigs, and I'm starting to see
weeks where we're selling five hundred, seven hundred copies, and
the publisher says, like, what happened, Like, you know, we
didn't have the author on a show or anything, and
(09:14):
I'm like, well, no, finally some of the bookings he
had been pursuing came through, and they've been buying the
books for everyone who's attending, and that to me is great.
So this notion of just focusing on those first couple
of weeks or I really have to hit a best
seller list, to me is it takes a lot of effort,
(09:35):
a lot of time, and it's just sort of not
playing the game well in my view.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And it's very shortsighted too. Your book, especially these non
fiction books, they have evergreen topics. It's not like three
weeks after the publication date, it's like, Okay, that's done
and on to the next. That book is going to
last you for a long time. The exposure of the
credibility this book, if you do it right, and even
(10:02):
our slice of the world with media, when you get
those media placements, whether it's before, during, or after a
book launch, you add those to your bio, to your website,
to your Amazon page. As you said earlier, your Amazon
page is such an important tool for algorithms and find
people finding you that the credibility that a book brings
(10:26):
in any media attention that a book brings, that's going
to last three years. And so the book then is
part of your part of your bio, part of your brand,
and we see that every day because we work on
book launches, yes, and we try to get that pre
launch and get as much excitement around we call the
birthday of the book and publication date. But we have
(10:49):
clients that we've been working with Debbie since twenty fifteen,
twenty sixteen, the same book because we getting them media
attention for their idea in their work, and they've got
this book that's drawing new opportunities for them, whether it's speaking,
new clients, higher fees, growing their network, growing their thought leadership,
(11:11):
and their book is a beautiful asset that goes well
beyond the publication date. And you mentioned, you know, the
bulk book sales. That is something we tell every author.
Make sure on your website that people know that your
book is available for bulk purchases and how to do
it to make it as easy as possible for people
(11:33):
to buy your books in bulk.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Because that those sales really make a difference.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
And in the best of all worlds, when someone's a
very good speaker, they're speaking, everybody at the event is
getting a book. But then we've seen Amazon sales also,
you know where BookScan scales for that week very high.
Why because the speaker, the author as speaker was so
(12:00):
effective that people then spread the word and say.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Hey, I'm you know, I'm in my corporate retreat.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
You've got to buy this book. You know, it's so good,
this will help you. And so it's just word of
mouth and we've had a few authors where that continues.
So not only is it one of our best selling
books each week, but we're also getting you know, the
bonus of the bulk sales.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Oh, it's wonderful. Now going back to your point, especially,
I think about the traditional agent path for the different
the different types of publishing and the traditional publishing, there's
the hybrid publishing and the self publishing. Big general categorizations there.
(12:47):
You mentioned timeline. What do you see is the timeline
if you have someone who says, I have a book
and I want to get it published traditionally, what are
you seeing as what do you tell people is the
likely publication date? You're looking at twelve months, eighteen months,
(13:07):
two years, three years.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Unfortunately, something between eighteen months and two years, because part
of it is the scheduling of a publisher. So most
traditional publishers when they get their manuscript, it's eighteen months
to two years.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
But till you get a yes.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Or if you're trying to first get an agent, which
in some cases is advantageous because an agent then can
then submit your book to you know, all sorts of publishers,
regional university presses, all the traditional publishers. So you know,
you need a proposal and that will take a little time.
(13:52):
And then let's say you send it to half a
dozen agents and you wait, you know, hoping that you'll
get a yes. If you get a yes, the agent
may still ask for revisions to the proposal. Then the
agent would send it out. It used to be I
would tell folks, oh, you'll usually hear between six.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Weeks and two months.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Nope, publishers are taking much, you know, even first for
the agents. But publishers used to respond in kind of
a two month fashion, and now I'm finding that that's elongated.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
I don't know if it's smaller staff or you know, sometimes.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
The editors are wearing multiple hats and doing different things,
so you could have, you know, I hate to say
it as long as a year, sort of in that
stop and start where you're waiting to hear it's been submitted.
So when an author comes to me, I will usually say,
what's your preference, and most authors, understandably will say, well,
(14:54):
i'd really like to find a traditional publisher, and I'll say, okay,
it's as long as you're going to be patient. And
then I'll say, I still think you should have a
sort of time frame. So let's say I've worked with them,
we have a great proposal, they submit it to agents,
they get some nose. They'll say, okay, let's can we
(15:17):
try some others. I'll say yes, depending on whether we're
getting any positive feedback of agents sort of saying look,
it's not right for me because I've had a similar
subject a client writing on the same subject. If they're
getting no feedback at all or negative feedback, then I
(15:38):
will usually say, look, we could keep doing this, but
you're close to finishing your book.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
You want to have it so.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
That you can speak, or you want to use it
in some online training.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Can we should We start to think about self publishing,
and some authors are very open to it.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
You know, some authors kind of in their heels and say,
you know, I don't care how long it takes. We
can submit to fifty different agents, you know many many publishers,
and you do you know, I'm online and on social media.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
There will be people.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Who say, yes, I had fifty five rejections, but then
I found, you know, the perfect agent for my book
and it's out on submission now, and that's fine.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
But not everybody wants to wait.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Sure, especially if your book is on AI for example,
and what's happening in two years is likely very irrelevant
to what's we're writing today versus what a book in
two years is going to say, unless you're really in
theory as opposed to actuality. But yeah, there's there's not
(16:47):
many books that an author is that I've spoken with
who want to wait that two plus years to get
their ideas out. They've got, as you said, conferences, they've
got goals, they've got plans for this book, and they
often have more than one book. So to get that
path started, there's options besides.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Traditional even I will say in post Hill does this,
We will do some books print on demand. Particularly one
of my colleague colleagues publishes a lot of sort of
current affairs books, and in fact, he had some books
related to the Israeli conflict and there was you know,
even waiting six.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Months or nine months would have hurt the book.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
So he essentially says we will publish it as quickly
as as we can. It will be available online if
we do it through Ingram bookstores can also order it.
And interestingly, the author said, well, but couldn't I do
that myself? And our response is yes, you could. But
(17:54):
essentially we are getting it out quickly. You still have
a publish Sure's name, which mattered to this author. And
other than the speed to market, we're still doing the editorial,
the you know, the cover design, the online listing, and
all the things that the author would have had to
(18:16):
handle himself. And I think other publishers are. They're certainly
doing this sometimes when it's a question of should we
keep the book in print, you know, maybe it's an
older title, they are doing print on demand and it's
it's good because it keeps the book around. And then
some publishers are saying, yeah, we have to you know,
we're going to rush out this book for the election.
(18:38):
The only way to do it really is print on
demand because printers are backed up for months and you
can't immediately kind of rush that process or bump someone.
You know, another publisher maybe has book the printer because
they're doing two hundred thousand copies of a best selling
novelist on his tenth book, right, So, I think, you know,
(18:58):
even authors who are talking to publishers and agents, if
there's a very compelling reason why they need the book
out sooner, they should say, hey, just so you know,
I understand this is your normal schedule. I've moved books
up sometimes on you know, not print on demand. But
(19:19):
an author said, hey, I just I'm doing a ten
X talk. Any chance we could get the book out
two months sooner or I'm on a panel at south
By Southwest. I didn't know about it till they sent
me an acceptance. Can we move it up? We can't always,
but that's the kind of information that authors should be sharing,
whether it's agent or a publisher an editor, because that
(19:43):
can make a difference in the scheduling.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Sure, from a publicity perspective, I've had conversations with publishers.
There was one PCOS Awareness Month, which is I think
polycystic ovarian syndrome. I can't remember the exact few years
back now, and the book was coming out in October,
but PCOS Awareness Month was September and I said, is
(20:06):
there any way we can move it up six weeks
or so? And the publisher was able to and we
were able to get an enormous amount of media building
up to that because of the awareness month. And it
would have been so sad if we had all this
coverage coming and it was yes, check back in in
six weeks to get this book. So it's it's so
(20:27):
nice when publishers they want to make the book a
success too.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
So and it's finding out about a month. You know,
you can you can google you know, almost any any
any condition, any ailment, any situation. And essentially, I mean
I do that depending on the topic of a book,
I will ask the author, you know, is there what's
your ideal time or is there something I should know about,
(20:53):
whether it's a mental health awareness month or some you know,
challenge related promotion, And of course you want to tie
into it, and that's usually not so difficult, but authors,
you know, it's important that authors understand.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
The schedule is there. Yes, some of it is.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
A larger company publishing a lot of books and they're
scheduling them and you don't want say, three personal finance
books coming out the same month, so they're you know,
they're looking at a lot of things versus an author
who just sort of says, hey, I want to get
my book out there. But authors have to understand if
you rush to market, they have to step up as well,
(21:38):
because they will have less time to review the copy
edited manuscript, less time to do the final proofread and.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Along the way. You know, if you.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Shorten a nine month process to three months, sometimes you
know a few more errors get in, even though you
know fifteen people may have read it, looked at the copy,
and there are still mistakes.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
You know, and you can correct them. I mean authors
should understand.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Sometimes if I have an author read and the last
version of the manuscript, let's say they're recording the audio,
I know that I'm going to get an email of
all the word changes they'd like to make, and they're
simply the manuscript has been proved several times, but somehow
reading it, they're like, oh that's the worst word.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I have to.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Change this word, or I've left out a preposition or something.
And then what I say is, look, when we do
a reprint, we'll correct it, but we can correct it
immediately in the E version, which is good.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I just had an author recently tell me multiple multiple
time published author that she now insists on reading doing
the audiobook recording ahead of time for that exact reason,
because she's had so many things she'd like to change
or to do once she's done that. But then it
(23:04):
got me to thinking, maybe you should do this not
officially as the audiobook, but as exercise yourself, as if
you are recording the audiobook, just to see how it sounds.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
I will tell authors, particularly authors who are self publishing,
when you get that final version, ask someone else not
so familiar with the book to do the actual proof reading.
But then you read it aloud, because that's the best
way to catch any errors. So if I've worked on
a book for months and I've been talking to the author,
(23:37):
when I look at it the pages, I will miss
things because I'm reading what I think is there from
having looked at earlier versions. I mean, every once in
a while will when for a really important book, I
will have to ask my husband, like, who hasn't read
the book at all? Could you look at this proof
because evitably will find things. And I think it's the
(24:02):
same thing with the authors. When you're looking at the page,
you're seeing what you think you've written, but you know
maybe in the you know several stages between you turning
it in and it's getting into pages. You know, mistakes
can happen.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
And that actually brings me to a question I had
for you. What one of the themes we're doing here
is talking with I'm calling them heroes behind the book,
the people that you know make the authors look great,
and you know, editors are right at the top of
that hero list in the book world. Tell me, Debbie,
(24:40):
what what a typical day looks like for you? And
you can You've got you wear so many hats, so
maybe pick your editing hat or your book coach hat.
But I'd love to hear I have authors here what
what you do on a day to day basis.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
So wearing my editor's hat, it'll be check my inbox,
and so some of it will be new proposals, so
I'll spend some time reading. I might immediately go back
and say, you know, I think I'm interested, but maybe
I have some questions. So, for example, in the marketing plan,
they might have said, you know, I speak regularly, and
(25:19):
I might.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Ask the author, what does regularly speak?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Like?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Can you send me I mean, you know stuff that
I want to know, like are you speaking once a
month to twenty people or do you have a calendar
the past six months, the upcome the next six months?
What when you say you're active on social media, please
tell me and be honest.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
I mean I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yes, sometimes I will go look on LinkedIn, but or
I'll go to the author website.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
But I want the ammunition.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
I need to decide whether I can then take this
to our editorial meeting and is this something I want
to pursue?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
And then you know, the emails.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Will be everything from I hate my back cover copy,
can we revise it? Or we've sent out some versions
of a cover and the author gives feedback of you know,
I like this one, but I really like the type
on the other one, and can we change the this?
So it's books had written. My authors are at various stages,
(26:23):
from about to be published or very early on. Maybe
somebody's sending me three chapters and saying can you give
me some feedback? And I will usually do sort of
big picture of is it understandable? You know, do you
have a great way to open and close chapters? I
(26:44):
think one of the mistakes authors make is particularly first
time authors, They've got a lot to say, and so
I get ten pages single spaced with no subheads, no
sidebar boxes, no call outs, you know, no subheads. And
so I'll say, hey, remember this is not like a
novel where people want to turn the pages. This will
(27:07):
be a design book and you really don't want to
have page after page of just type. So we need
to come up with interesting ways to have your book
be more user friendly.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
And then it could be you know, a call with.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
A publicist and the author to make sure we're on
the same page thinking about do they have are they
going to be doing any traveling? So let's say, if
an author is already going to a particular city for work,
could we piggyback? Could we arrange a book signing and
then maybe get them on a local morning show to
(27:45):
promote the signing.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
The next day. Sometimes it's help I want to have.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
I'm speaking at a church and I'm actually dealing with
this right now. I've got an event before three hundred
people at a church in Connecticut.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Can you get books there and somebody to sell them to?
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Which I say, well, no, Like, we can't get someone
up to Connecticut because most of the staff is in Nashville.
And what I'm trying to do is see if I
can get a local indie bookstore to come to the
event to sell books because or else the author is like,
if I'm going there, I want to sell books. So
(28:26):
I think I think the days of an editor just
spending his or her time looking for wonderful books to
publish and then sitting back with you know, the electronic
version of the red pencil editing books or writing cover
copy that's not quite accurate these days. That's a small
(28:48):
part of my job, and the rest of the time
I'm you know, working with the designers in house. I'm
working with my publicity team. I'm talking to the publisher about, Hey,
I think there's an opportunity have come. It's not yet
up on Target or Walmart. You know, maybe some folks
want to order the book there. So I think that
(29:09):
I think most editors are now wearing well, have you've.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Got your your talent acquisition hat, you have your day
to day editing and concept and making the book as
good as it can, making sure the book is being
marketed and publicized, and then all the details behind the
scenes of the day to day questions from the book cover,
the back cover copy, and the distribution team and the
(29:37):
retail channel so that's your your day must feel very
you know what am I doing this this exact minute.
I like working that way.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
I like I think it makes it more it's more interesting.
And you know, I sort of have my some of
my favorite authors who you know, who are just delightful
to work with and are very glad to sort of
be partners in the process. And what I tell authors is,
you've worked really hard on your book.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
The actual publishing.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Process can be complicated, but it should not be painful.
And I'd like to think that people along the way
will be helpful and we'll ask, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
We'll answer questions.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
So I always tell my authors the only stupid questions
are the ones you don't ask and you try to
guess that. So, you know, we might be just shortly
before publication and we'll have our publicity call and press
releases approved. The author understands, you know, f us pitching podcasts.
(30:41):
We're waiting to see if the trades have reviewed the book,
and then I'll sort of remind them, you know, hey,
if somebody throws you a curveball question, please come back
to us. And they're like, well, what do you mean,
I'm like, well, you're talking about your book. What if
somebody asks you to speak and you're not, and it's
right before the pub date, Well maybe we could ship
(31:01):
the books from the printer and get them there in time.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
So it's you know, gee, if it's.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
A charity that wants to order fifty books but Amazon
isn't discounting, you could order it from the publisher and
I can probably get authorization to offer a higher discount
to make that sale happen. So authors shouldn't be you know,
shouldn't try to figure everything out themselves. I know, sometimes
(31:28):
it's tough to reach people. You know, sometimes I have
a you know, fifteen emails when I check my mail early.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
In the morning.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
But it really is partnership and we all want books
to succeed. So communication is key. And this is really
probably what I complain about the most is for a
business of communication, people can be.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
So bad at it. So I have authors who literally go.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
And and you know, it's sometimes I think, Okay, the
manuscript's going to be late. I'm disappointed, but we'll reschedule,
but we'll send version of the manuscript and say we
need this back by this date. If we're going to
keep the pup date oh, no, answer you now, my
(32:22):
production editor reminds them. I send an email saying, hey,
come on, I understand if there's been some emergency and
you're going to know, yes, please tell me and we
will adjust the schedule.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
I know.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I tend to pick up the phone and talk to
people sometimes. My colleagues, particularly production editors, are really busy
because they might be managing fifty titles at a time,
so they tend to communicate via email. So I will
actually tell authors I'll say, look, copy me on everything.
Certain details are handled by the production editor, but if
(32:59):
you're really stick, you can call me and I'll at
least get you in answer.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
And the same.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I often have authors say why can't we talk to
the designer, because the process normally is we ask authors,
did you have something in mind? You know, what did
you envision for the jacket? Do we need to match
certain colors on your website or a typeface? And some
authors are incredibly specific and they'll say, here's three covers
(33:29):
on Amazon. I really like, can you try to model these?
Or here's the exact and they give us the exact
number of the color they want. But then they'll, you know,
maybe we show them as a design that they don't like,
and they're like, it really would be easier if I
could talk to the designer, and I have to say,
you know, we tried that when we were publishing fewer books,
(33:49):
and then the designers fell behind. So no, I'm sorry,
but you need to use words to communicate about what
you like or don't like or what you want in
the jacket. And I know sometimes that's frustrating because authors
just feel like it will just be a five minute conversation,
and I have to say, unfortunately, it would be a
five minute conversation for every author, and my designers would
(34:12):
not have any time to design. So there's there can
be issues along the way, but I just think communicate.
Send an email, you know, emergency, send a text. I mean,
I don't love getting text. But I have authors who
will be like, you know this happened, or I went
into a bookstore and I'm doing the event tomorrow and
they say, the books never arrived. Well, if you don't
(34:34):
tell me that, you can't help them exactly. I mean
I may not be able to, but I need to
be armed with the with the information, and I just
you know, industrywide, I just wish people would recognize that
a long time ago, we didn't have cell phones, we.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Couldn't communicate via text.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
And somehow we published a lot of books, which meant
that people actually you know, wrote emails or picked up
the phone to call. And sometimes I think we could
accomplish a lot more like just have a five minute
phone call rather than half a dozen emails going back
and forth.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yes, it can cut so many questions and write to
the chase and all the tone and questions, and a
five minute phone call can save an hour of back
and forth by email, for sure.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yeah, And I think some of it is we are
so accustomed because we're working in many cases virtually Yes,
and you know, I'm dealing with authors who are all
around the world. But even so, it comes down to
your person. I'm a person, we're publishing the book. Let's
figure out a way to communicate effectively. And it's not
(35:50):
I mean I have to I have to say. I
will call out some agents as well, who don't always respond.
So agents can be very responsive when they're negotiating a
contract or waiting for a and an offer on a book,
but sometimes when there's a major issue with the author,
and I'd really like a little support. And I understand
(36:11):
the agent is the author's advocate, but when publisher and
author are really at loggerheads, I want the agent involved,
even if it's just to be kind of a middle
person to help negotiate and navigate a tricky situation.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
As you said, DeBie, everybody wants the book to succeed.
So let's all get our communicative brains together and get
to get to some solutions instead of not asking the
questions and missing opportunities. And you know that's something we
see here too, is are authors your authors, they're brilliant
(36:50):
in their field, they're they're usually top top notch experts
in a particular area. They just don't know publicity. They
don't no publishing world. They don't know all the ins
and outs. And that's okay. And so those questions of
the opportunities and to navigate this getting a book from
(37:13):
idea concept to out the door, Yeah, those questions. As
you said, there's no bad questions. Just ask them please,
because we can't help you if you're not if we're
not all on the same page. And one question that
I have for you too, you said earlier looking at
(37:35):
a book proposal and talking about the platform and the speaking.
This might be a very complicated answer, but would you
prefer an author with a decent book and outstanding platform,
lots of followers, lots of big newsletter lists, big brand,
(37:57):
or a truly remarkable book and idea with a modest brand.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Oh tricky question.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
I have to say that honestly, because the business is
so competitive these days. Unfortunately, content can be secondary to
the platform. So if it's a really strong platform, I
will have an easier job getting my publisher and colleagues
to say, yes, let's publish this book. And then really
(38:31):
it's my job to work with the author to perhaps
improve the book and make sure it's the best that
it can be. You know, sometimes there is a spectacular
book and I will spring it to editorial meeting and
I will really be ready for a little bit of
(38:51):
a fight, as the publisher says, but you know, deb
the author has really modest social media and I'll like,
I get it.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
But book is the.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Content is so strong that I'm willing to work with
the author and tell him or her that these are
the six things they need to do well before the
book is out. And sometimes it's enough, but it is
much easier for me to get a yes when there's
already a platform, And I think, frankly that's that's the
(39:24):
challenge for many authors of good idea. But how will
the publisher help to have the book stand out and
sell a lot? The platform is just important these days,
and you know, for better or worse, some people have
huge platforms. And so that's the comparison of okay, if
(39:47):
you're not already doing this. I mean, I think the
mistake that authors make is underestimating their platforms. So authors
will say, well, I'm only on LinkedIn, and I'm like,
don't say only on LinkedIn, because in fact, LinkedIn, I
think is a great way to mention books. You know,
are you contributing on LinkedIn? You know, are you posting
(40:10):
some articles? So okay, you're on LinkedIn, you're not on
the other social platforms, That's fine, what else can you
be doing? And so sometimes I will literally press an
author you know who perhaps the marketing section is the
weakest part of the proposal, and I'll say, hey, you,
you know, you have three graduate degrees.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
Do you think one of your alumni magazine would feature you?
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Particularly if they've done something notable And they're like, well, Actually,
I'm active in the alumni association, so I bet they would.
I'm like, okay, we now have another bullet in the
marketing platform. So sometimes authors are only thinking of you know,
do I have a TV show? Do ivery radio show?
Do I have you know, one hundred thousand fans or followers? No,
(40:57):
there are other aspects to a platform, but authors should
never say when the book is published, I will do
the following or after I sign a publishing agreement. I
will that to me. I mean, I get those proposals
and I'm putting an X next to it, because that
shows me that we you haven't done any research about
(41:20):
the business and that you're going to rely solely on
the publisher's efforts. And that doesn't work these days anymore.
So I'd rather if it's I'm waiting until the book
is published, that's almost always a reason to reject the book.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
I'd rather see I have a website.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
It will get updated as I start doing bookings related
to the book. I am also active on LinkedIn, So
everybody has to start while they're writing to be building
their platform, not waiting until a month before the pub date.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
No, No, that is the worst time to begin. I
get well. I guess no time is too late. But
if you have big goals and you're investing your time
and energy in a book, your brand and your platform
have to come first as you are planning this launch.
And another asset that authors tend to forget is there
(42:19):
what we call your friends in high places? Who do
you know who we can borrow their social clout. So
if you are friends with in the publishing world, for example,
Dori Clark, she's got a beautiful name, and when my
book comes out, she is going to promote it and
to kind of put this list together, whether it's household
(42:42):
names or people influential in their field, let's get their
names together. What is the ask and what's the timing
of the ask? Because we can borrow from other people's platforms,
hopefully as you're continuing to build your own very aggressively.
And we do like authors who are on social media,
but I'd rather have one go deep into one platform
(43:04):
than do a little bit on all of them.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Absolutely agree with that. Yeah, And it depends what you know.
Pick one that you're comfortable with. So I understand a
lot of people are find X difficult these days, or
maybe it's too political, so just do LinkedIn, or if
you've got you know, more of a lighter subject, then
(43:26):
maybe it's Instagram because you can post, you know, photos
related to the book. So just think, you know, thinking
about that also thinking about particularly for business authors, sometimes
they'll say, well, I've been written about, I have good
journalistic contacts, and then sometimes we'll actually say, okay, let's
(43:47):
have a list of your ten contacts. Do you want
to you have one ask? Do you want to ask
for an endorsement or would you rather see if they
would post about your book on their social platform? So
sometimes authors haven't quite They're like, but this is a
really big name and I'm like, yes, but you have
(44:09):
some other wonderful endorsers. Would you ask this person to
promote when the book is available or to have you
on his or her show. Maybe that's more valuable than
the back cover endorsement.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Exactly what is the ask is that maybe they have
a podcast, right, maybe they have a social platform. There's
all different ways that people can support an author beyond
the blurb. So that is that's something we work with
because especially if an author has a podcast, they're often
networked with many other podcast hosts and let let's put
(44:44):
that to work for you so that we're getting as
many people supporting the book. And most people, when you
are friends with them and professional friends and admire the work,
they want to help you. So that's something we work
with to really help an author understand and all the
different paths and assets they have to build awareness and
(45:05):
visibility for their book, and they just, oh, I haven't
thought about that.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
And really one of the most important things and you
must see this is I mean, you want to tell
people about your book. But I have authors who say, oh, great,
I just signed the contract, I'm delivering the book in
a month.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
Can I start talking about it?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
And I usually say no, because no one can buy
the book yet. So to me, a lot of the
activity has to wait until the book is available online
for pre sale, and then even you know, we'll talk about, Okay,
what's the strategy and you don't want to assault people.
(45:45):
I'm not a big fan of make my book a
bestseller emails to friends, but talking about it too soon,
what can someone do If there's no call to action,
then you've kind of wasted your pitch, your promotion. So
what we'll do is once it's available for sale and
that's roughly six months before the pub date. We'll send
(46:08):
the link to the author and then that really starts
a conversation.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
And I wish I.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Could say there's a formula for tell everybody to buy
the book, like I think six months ahead of time
is a long time.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Like other than.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Other than tickets, there aren't too many things that people
will will purchase, you know, month. But we also want
to see pre sales because we're setting the print run
for the book about four months before pub date. So
we'll look at a handful of pre orders and the
publisher will say, well, how many do you want me
(46:45):
to print? Like we've seen so little activity, and because
we're a smaller publisher, we tend to be more conservative
in our in our print runs. So I tell authors
you need to tasteless promote it. We want to see
some pre orders because that's really important these days.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
And I'm sorry, but the timing is.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
A business decision around the production. Yep, that's that is
a great point, because I understand that the biggest swell
of pre orders comes in maybe three weeks before pub date.
Because of that exact point you brought up, the people
really going to wait six months or four months. But
(47:29):
I know that there are very creative ways that authors
can you get the pre order confirmation, then you can
come to the website and download a workbook.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
Or there are ways.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
There are ways to make it work and to incentivize readers,
you know, to purchase the books. But I mean the
main thing, and this is true for all publishers, is
really because Amazon accounts for the majority of sales these days,
you need to see pre orders on Amazon. When Amazon
starts to see let's say steady, even if they're modest numbers,
(48:03):
Amazon is thinking, oh, there's there's interest in this book.
We need to take in a decent number of books
to have them available at pub date. If you're just
seeing a handful of pre orders, Amazon might say, you know,
let's see what happens if there's a big publicity hit,
or we'll just wait to see if the book sells.
Speaker 4 (48:22):
And you don't want that.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
You want Amazon well stocked so that it's ready should
there be a big publicity hit and everybody's ordering the book.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Right right, That's a that's a great point. It's a
there's so much behind the scenes that authors in the
general public just don't realize. The fine balance of that
magic eight ball, the magic ball that that in the
publishing world, we need to try to make decisions today
(48:53):
that will really support the success of a book. But
it's hard, it's it's a lot of a lot of gut,
I would say, right.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
And guessing and guessing, and then really authors need to
understand that even when everything seems to be going well,
it's out of our control. So I'm thinking of all
the authors who had terrific morning shows books right around
(49:24):
last October seventh, or you know, during the pandemic, or
you know, during the start of the Ukraine War where
for days not only were you know, authors just were
canceled because it was all about current events. But then
people weren't necessarily buying books either because they just were
(49:46):
not in a good frame of mind. So we can
plan everything well, but then you know, it's kind of
like you plan a vacation and you're not expecting a
hurricane during the off season.
Speaker 4 (49:57):
But it happens. So you just have you know, you
have to plan and plan and be ready and then
you learn to pivot.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
I mean, fortunately these days there are still things that
you can do online. Much things do get rebooked, but
you know, I've had authors who are like, oh, it's
ruined now because this show. You know, No, it's not ruined.
And just so you know, I think you know, you're
in a group of many authors but the same pubdate
(50:25):
who also had media that was canceled. So some of
it will get rescheduled and we'll do the best we can,
but there's no point getting angry at editor or publicist.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
It's out of our control as well. It's just world events.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Right, and that and that big show shouldn't be the
only measure of success because that's in realistic, real life
one media parents. While it's fantastic, that should be one
pin on many that are going to move the book.
And we often tell authors, especially in the lifestyle consumer space,
(51:03):
We've had many on Good Morning America Today show and
sometimes book sales come up after sometimes they don't. And well,
we had one author on an affiliate ABC show that
then got sent out to twenty other shows and sold
seven thousand books in forty eight hours. And that was
(51:24):
not nearly as quote impressive as say the Today Show,
but boy it packed much more of a punch. So
we can really look at the niche media the other
opportunities to keep things going, and that was long after
the publication date, and the publisher was quite happy and
just unexpected because you don't know. Something could go a
(51:46):
media placement and magic happens, and other times it can
be the best media placement, but the public says not interested.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
So you've had that, and it's so disappointing when authors
in a one of my colleagues had an author on
sixty Minutes this summer and we thought great, it was
a brief lift and it was such a small number
of books that we were really surprised because a few
years ago sixty minutes you would have sold lots of books.
(52:16):
So we you know, no appearance, you can't guarantee book
sales will reach a certain level for any appearance.
Speaker 4 (52:24):
You hope the author does well.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
It's certainly you now have a clip that you can
use to get some more media, but we can't say
if you appear on this show, we're going to sell
X number of books.
Speaker 4 (52:37):
There's no way to guarantee that.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
No, No, that's a that's a kind of a good
note as we at time here, but it's a it's
good for authors to educate themselves on the potential of
a book that doesn't come just right at pub date,
there's so much more hope and planning and to start
(53:01):
as early as possible in your author brand because that's
going to give your book the best chance for success
at the agent publishing world, and then of course after,
because the publisher is not the one who's going to
do the heavy lifting when it comes to book sales.
And something that you said, and I would love it
(53:23):
to be a big quote somewhere, perhaps on on every
author's website is see if I can get this right
from earlier in the conversation today, the publishing process is complicated,
but it shouldn't be painful.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
Yes, and I'll stick with that. I'll stick with that.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
You stick with that, and especially when you have someone
like you, Debbie on your side, might it might be complicated,
but your job is to help them not to be
as painful of a process. So so thank you for
those those wide words. I think that that's good, a
beautiful quote for authors who are looking to educate themselves
(54:04):
on how to best navigate getting a book out to market.
But I want to thank you Debbie Englander, who can
be found on x or Twitter at Deborah d e
b R a Englander or on LinkedIn it's Devorah again
the e b r a Englander consulting editor Post Tail Press.
(54:28):
And if you have a book that you'd like to
perhaps have some help with, Babe DeBie can be your advocate,
helping you through all the different phases of a book.
Because your your hat's making me tired, from designed to
distribution to finding a good home. But as always wanted
(54:50):
to think, thank the listeners. Here at All Things Book
Marketing you can find more episodes and invite you to
come to this Smith Publicity website we have our newsletter.
Or if you have a book and you're curious about
what media attention, publicity branding can do for your book
(55:12):
or author brand, we'd love to hear from you at
a website Smith Publicity dot com or Info at Smith
Publicity And thank you all.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Smith
Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast. To reach us and
learn about our many services, visit Smith Publicity dot com
or send us an email to info at Smith Publicity
dot com.
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