August 13, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode, host and Smith Publicity Vice President Corinne Moulder chats with Sally Ekus, a senior literary agent at JVNLA, about the evolution and specialization of the culinary publishing market.
Sally shares her journey growing up in the world of cookbook publishing, her expertise in representing culinary authors, and the shifts in the industry toward niche, hyper-targeted cookbooks.
They also discuss the importance of leveraging backlists for ongoing success, the impact of platforms like Substack on the publishing industry, and the future trends in culinary and nonfiction publishing. The episode provides valuable insights for authors, publicists, and anyone interested in the culinary literary space.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:14 Sally Ekus' Background and Career Journey
01:57 The Evolution of Culinary Publishing
04:37 The Shift Towards Niche and Specialized Cookbooks
07:18 Successful Examples of Hyper-Targeted Cookbooks
13:14 The Importance of Backlist Promotion
23:16 Sally Ekus' Role and Future Plans
28:18 The Impact of Substack and Newsletter Platforms
33:06 Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts
Sally Ekus is a Senior Literary Agent at JVNLA where she spearheads The Ekus Group, a boutique culinary division representing a wide range of culinary, health, wellness, and lifestyle talent. On the non-culinary side, Sally represents books about caregiving and parenting, and is expanding into select other non-fiction genres. From concept to contract, she has brokered over 300 book deals with top publishers including Penguin Random House, HarperCollins, Hachette, Simon & Schuster, and numerous indie publishers. Sally hosts an online community called How to be a Cookbook Author and writes the bestselling Substack Newsletter, Not So Secret Agent.
For more information about book publicity, visit Smith Publicity.
Sally shares her journey growing up in the world of cookbook publishing, her expertise in representing culinary authors, and the shifts in the industry toward niche, hyper-targeted cookbooks.
They also discuss the importance of leveraging backlists for ongoing success, the impact of platforms like Substack on the publishing industry, and the future trends in culinary and nonfiction publishing. The episode provides valuable insights for authors, publicists, and anyone interested in the culinary literary space.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:14 Sally Ekus' Background and Career Journey
01:57 The Evolution of Culinary Publishing
04:37 The Shift Towards Niche and Specialized Cookbooks
07:18 Successful Examples of Hyper-Targeted Cookbooks
13:14 The Importance of Backlist Promotion
23:16 Sally Ekus' Role and Future Plans
28:18 The Impact of Substack and Newsletter Platforms
33:06 Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts
Sally Ekus is a Senior Literary Agent at JVNLA where she spearheads The Ekus Group, a boutique culinary division representing a wide range of culinary, health, wellness, and lifestyle talent. On the non-culinary side, Sally represents books about caregiving and parenting, and is expanding into select other non-fiction genres. From concept to contract, she has brokered over 300 book deals with top publishers including Penguin Random House, HarperCollins, Hachette, Simon & Schuster, and numerous indie publishers. Sally hosts an online community called How to be a Cookbook Author and writes the bestselling Substack Newsletter, Not So Secret Agent.
For more information about book publicity, visit Smith Publicity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast,
offering tips, insights and advice from the best in the
publishing industry. Hi everyone, and thanks for joining today. I'm
your host Krin Mulder and joined today by our guest
Sally Echis.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Karen Hi, Sally.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
A little bit about Sally for some background here. Sally
Echis is a senior literary agent at JBNLA, where she
spearheads the Echis Group, a boutique culinary division specializing in
cookbook and lifestyle titles. She represents a wide range of culinary, health,
wellness and lifestyle talent, from first time cookbook authors to chefs,
(00:44):
restaurant owners, professional food writers and journalists. From concept to contract.
She has broken over three hundred book deals with top publishers.
She is on the advisory council for the Julia Child
Foundation and an active member of the International Association Culinary Professionals,
Women's Media Group, Shout Out, the Association of American Literary Agents,
(01:06):
and the Cherry Bomb Bomb Squad, among other organizations. She
is a mom, taco lover, and improviser.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Really, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Thank you so much for having me. It's such an
honor to chat with you and hang out with the
Smith Publicity crew.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, definitely, And I have to say this is a
very fun topic for us. We've invited agents to be
on the podcast in the past, but it's always fun
to hear more about that corner of the world. But
you're the first to bring a very specific focus to
culinary publishing, a topic we've not explored, a topic we
(01:43):
absolutely love and I do feel it's just a great
time to chat here. So with the Gift Guide submissions
and holidays kind of weighing on us already. Yeah, So
really love to hear more about you, Sally, and seeing
that you grew up in this world with your mom
Lisa starting the ECUs group what over forty years ago. Yeah,
(02:08):
give us a little background on the history of pulinary
publishing and how you've seen it change. I think it'd
be a great starting point.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, I really grew up in cookbook publishing without
realizing that's the area of focus that I was growing
up in. So Lisa founded what at the time was
a publicity firm before we were an agency, and she
really carved out a specialized category of cookbook publicity very
(02:37):
early on, and this was over forty years ago, back
in what I consider the good old days quote unquote
of publishing, when publishers had big budgets. They were sending
everyone out on multi city media tours, radio, television, print,
tons of print. There were escorts in different cities that
would meet authors and bring them around to a bunch
(02:58):
of different media outlets, and really it was a robust
publicity market. And so I grew up with that framework
of what publicity was and really can be in its
evolution today, and never had any pressure. It wasn't a
family business at the time. If you had asked me,
you know, twenty five years ago, what does my mom do,
I'd say something with food and books. And so I
(03:20):
was on a different career trajectory to get a master's
in social work. I was trained in active listening, crisis counseling,
and negotiation. And so I kind of half jokingly say
that I use those skills every day as.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
An agent and you were destined to be Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, So you know, hat did a breakup, left a
bad decision, moved back home, started helping out at the agency.
At that point, the agency evolved from a PR firm
to a literary agency, primarily, but also with some talent
management support and representation at the time and media training,
and so I started helping out. We had a couple
(03:58):
projects out on submission and I really loved it. I
realized that I've been informally training for this my whole life,
and I can bring this historical knowledge of the publishing
industry to modern day agent ing. And so that's kind
of how my career evolved. And we've always had a
hyper specialization in cookbooks and that has been such a gift.
(04:21):
And also now that I'm sixteen years into the publishing industry,
I realize also, you know, I have some other interests
in the nonfiction space, so I've started to dabble and
explore and really always with a nonfiction focus though.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, so exciting.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I love that your training definitely set you up.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yes, yes, yeah, all of it. Therapist in this world
right exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
When we had connected recently, Sally, we started to talk
about some of the shifts that we're seeing just in
general across the bar and the exculinary market is no
difference to it, and you said the term generalist, how
it's harder and harder to be or to really be
the generalist, and why you are seeing culinary you know,
(05:08):
publicity and marketing and publishing kind of narrowing its focus.
Why do you think the marketplace and publishers are so
much more drawn to niche and these highly specific books
these days.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I think it's partially because there's so much noise across
any category, and so for talking about food, the flip
side of this is that food has been is more
popular than ever. It's like crossing all kinds of different
markets and avenues. However, with all of that noise, it's
(05:40):
just like how do we break through and having a
deep expertise or an area of focus, whether it's a technique,
an ingredient, a topic just like that passion that drives
a person and then layering on the career expertise of
that is a way to stand out in in that
(06:00):
sort of If you have a finite shelf for cookbooks,
then you have an area of focus with a specific
like hyperdniche area of specialized expertise.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, and we truly see that again in every genre
where right, just gravitating towards the very specific content. We're
doing more micro angling these.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, and I know, so what do you mean by
micro angling because I think of like the micro influencer. Yeah,
is that a smith terms? I think it might be.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So we'll look at a project and you know, we'll
find the broad concepts right under that we'll start to
identify if it can be an offshoot to a specific
seasonal tie in. Yeah, exactly, if there's an element sally,
you know, this of the author's background that more of
a front you know, front show to what the book
is about, into more of the author story.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And I think, yeah, yeah, I would say that that's
a great distinction of how the cookbook genre has evolved
and grown too. Is that the story behind the author
and of where they came from and why this is
their passion or expertise is more it's maybe it's always
been interesting to the reader, but it's more of a
(07:18):
requirement and a celebration of part of that story to
tell now. And that's something that publishers are really leaning
into and it's wonderful to see.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
What are some recent examples where you've seen the granular
or hyper targeted cookbooks kind of punched through and just
as an example of what made them work?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
To answer your second question, first, I think what we've
been talking about. They work because they're so specialized and
so they're discoverable. So somebody is going online and looking
for healthy vegetarian bean recipes, they're going to google those,
or they're going to search for those keywords. And if
you are marketing and publicizing your book or your brain
trust successfully, you're going to be in those search results.
(08:04):
And so that's how people are discovered for writing books,
That's how their content is discovered as an as a
real expert on the marketplace. But then also that's what
publishers are looking to publish because they have such a
clear way of like promoting them and marketing them to sales.
You know, it's not if that vegetarian being book. You know,
(08:24):
it's not for people that are looking to center animal
based proteins at the middle of their plate. But we
know what it is and we know what it isn't,
and we're not trying to pretend like the book is
something it's not. We worked on a I worked on
a book that came out this past spring by this
woman Sapna who wrote a book called Dhal Chaval, which
is celebrating vegetarian pulses and rice across Indian her Indian heritage,
(08:50):
and it's a really homey, comforting meal that both Indians
and Americans alike will identify with. It's also very clear
what this book is and what it isn't and so
it was it's just a beautiful celebration of this comfort
food told through an our vedic lens. So there's like
different layers that you can market there and the book.
(09:10):
Once you open the book, there's a lot to be
consumed and learned and for the reader to be educated about.
And it's very clear what the book is topically and
the title in the marketing and the SEO across the board.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and I had pulled a couple ideas together too,
and we did a book last year that was The
Sandwiches of History, huh, And again it was very specific
what was inside. It was a very fun creative platform
and you know, author behind the project. And another was
the the Anime Cafe that we have again very specific
(09:47):
and recipes together from anime characters. And yeah, those definitely
found their their niche audience for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah. We did an unofficial title for actually it's like
fan fiction for food, and it's the Feast of Thorns.
And Roses, which is a fan food book of this
Aqatar series. And so you know, it's like it looks
from a co merching merchandising standpoint, it fits really nicely
(10:16):
along with the series. Barnes and Noble did a special
edition of it where they put it out with the
Aquatar series, and it's like very clear what this book
is and what it's not. And I think the more
we can lean into making it just abundantly obvious for
the consumer, both from a discoverability standpoint, a market standpoint,
and like a product format visual standpoint, the more success
(10:38):
you'll have with a book.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yeah. That brings me back to our We did a
book so many years ago, the Unofficial Harry Potter Cookbook.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
But yeah, I have not thought about that.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah, I also I also, you know, it does
kind of like break my heart when people pitch me
books that have these like ethereal titles and a lot
of like heart and vagueness behind them, because I think,
you know, from a creative standpoint, we want those books
to just slail through the production process as is, and
(11:10):
it's a compromise along the way of what is going
to actually break through that noise, And so that's kind
of what I'm always trying to hold space for as
an agent.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah. Oh, I love that, Sally, And you did bring
that up when we when we recently were speaking, you said,
you do like the generalist books and the books that
encompass so much. What do you think it would take
for those to gain traction again? And I guess my
next question to that then it might fold right in,
is what challenges and shifts do you see happening in
(11:45):
the next one three years in the industry.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I mean, I think let's see, uh, I mean, Solfat
Acid Heats book is a great example of a book
that like has become a ref and a book that
everyone wants on their shelf. And so like, she's created
a both a topic a book and like a sales
(12:09):
history and a personal brand and expertise that people have
rallied behind. And that didn't happen overnight, but it did
get a lot of momentum quickly, and so you know,
that carves out the opportunity for her to do more
broad spectrum books that like cover a lot of content.
(12:31):
Those are just always have been fewer and far between.
And you know, thirty forty fifty years ago in the
cookbook space, there was more space for the definitive book
on XYZ. It's harder to have that now. But I
do think like to counterbalance the side of the scale
that has all of the niche, single subject or like
very dialed in topics, you have the opportunity to like
(12:53):
swing the pendulum to the other side. Every now and then,
it just doesn't happen as often. And that's okay, you know,
I'm okay with that. It makes it that more special
when it does.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, oh, I love that perspective. You know.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Another big topic, and this was at the US Book Show,
was you know, a bigger discussion point. I feel like
it's happening more and more sometimes in silos, sometimes across
the bigger team meetings that we'll sit on.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Is leveraging the backlist.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I know for cookbook authors and even just the
nonfiction authors that you work with, most are coming in
with a you know, a goal to continue to write. Right, So,
how does the backlist promotion aid in specifically in the
new culinary marketing and publicity campaigns? And I'd love to
(13:44):
just hear your takeaway.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, I have a real sauce spot for the backlist
I'm all about the backlist, and because the frendlist is
short lived, like it's only here for three months six
if you're lucky. And when we talk about backlist, we're
talking about new titles that are coming out each season
from the publisher. So there's like a various Every house
kind of defines it slightly differently, And I'd be curious, like,
at Smith Publicity, how do you guys decide determine like
(14:08):
what is a front list title when people are coming
you to hire you for campaigns. For me, I find
that generally speaking, you can define the backlist is anything
after a year, for sure, but that your publisher is
really going to be prioritizing your book three months prior
to it publishing and three months post pub so you
(14:28):
have this like six month span, which means like you're
there with your book after six months for as long
as it's in print, So why would you abandon it?
Or you know, the flip side is that what else
can you do to leverage them amunting you've gotten from
a from a publicity standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, to
(14:49):
keep the tail and the life of that book as
robust as possible for as long as possible, and that
could be speaking engagements, that could be new relationships that
had the door open when you landed when your book
first came out, Like, Oh, I landed this article or
this relationship with a podcast who had me on to
(15:09):
talk about the book, but now they know I'm an
expert on X y Z subjects, so they have me
back regularly or whatever it is. And you're not necessarily
doing another interview promoting the book that you wrote, but
you're evolving the relationships that that book enabled for the
longevity of your career. Like the backlist is really just
(15:32):
the path that runs parallel to your career and you're
just kind of jogging side by side. I am like
all about the backlist. I wrote a big newsletter about it.
There's a bunch of tips in there on different ways
for people to leverage backlist opportunities because it really is
also so author dependent and book dependent, Like what works
(15:52):
for one author, whether we're talking about the backlist, front list,
or anything does. It's not like a turnkey solution. So
you really want to think about, you know, what speaks
true to who you are, what you know, and how
can you expand that for the life of your book.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
You know, we love having the support when we have
an author who has their own backlist too. Yes, yeah,
so many individual authors on a one to one basis. Yeah,
it's just its content and like right, exactly, Yeah, it's
you know, part of my shtick is in speaking with
prospective authors and clients. It's really you know, the new
(16:30):
book is what brings us together and right, you know,
kind of creates the opportunity to have this conversation. Yeah,
but everything under your brand is bear game. So we're
looking at the content from the backlist. We're looking at
you know, even speaker outlines and coursework that we can
can well.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And things that are old are new again and vice versa.
And so you know, if you have a book that
came out five ten years ago and it's still in print,
as it's selling at least somewhat steadily, and so your
publishers keeping it in print, and so who knows what's
going to pop up in the zeitgeist or who needs
a quote from what you have an expertise in And
(17:14):
that book is out there hopefully working for you, and
you're working for the book, and that to go hand
in hand and the way that it works for you,
like how you were discoverable. You know, if your book
came out five years ago, discoverability looked very different, and
so constantly feeding that discoverability in today's marketplace is part
of supporting the backlist.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, this is a little bit of a specific question,
but sure, because you have borne a publicist hat, an agent.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Hat as well.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
What role can publisis, agents and maybe even authors play
in keeping the backlist titles alive? Now you mentioned for
authors you have you know, repurposing for speaking or for
consulting services, but agents and publicists too, you know, just
curious on how we can all rally and you know,
kind of keep pushing it.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I think that if the more somebody can be a
resource to the industry as a contributor, the more we
are doing a service to our industry. And so what
I mean by that is like if somebody comes to
me and asks, you know, what's the hot new cookbook?
I could maybe answer that, but I'm also going to offer,
(18:29):
like I have an opportunity to remind or plug, or
support or celebrate something that may not be considered quote
unquote new, but is still completely appropriate to be inserting
into that conversation because it is the legacy of those
that have come before and carved the path of that expertise.
And so that to me is there's like almost this
(18:51):
moral obligation it when appropriate or sometimes even pushing that
envelope a little to say, you know, here's the answer
and X y Z. And that's where we have an opportunity,
whether our role is agent, publicist, editor, author, any anyone
really across all all the production points of publishing.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Well and Sally, you also had previously discussed even the
consumer response. Yeah, y pulling the new book off the shelf. Yeah,
take a look at the other books that are on
there as well, and maybe make another purchase of a
book that's already been Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
I think lately I've been toying with the idea of
reminding people to buy things that are not new. And
I don't necessarily mean purchase like a consumer to purchase
a new product, but taking a look at what are
the books or what is the thing that you're shopping
for that is maybe not the hottest new thing, because
(19:48):
that's going to get the automatic attention or there you
know that there's like a team mobilizing behind it to
get some attention on the thing. You know, go to
your indie bookstore and in addition to like the hot
new releases, ask the bookseller or the person working there, like,
what's a book that you read last year that you
really loved? Or you know, what is a what's a
(20:10):
book that has been sitting on your nightstand forever that
you haven't picked up? It doesn't really matter when it
came out, and certainly we all can relate to like
an over abundant nightstand I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yes, for sure, for sure and swap it.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Around like talk about the you know, talk about those books.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, we're kind of touching a little bit on on
you know, the pitching and the positioning of the books
and the brand. So while we're here, I do just
want to, you know, ask for any insights you would
have for publishers as they are kind of considering this
submissions for holidays, because again Christmas in July is a
real thing. We are starting to really think through that
(20:53):
is it appropriate for publishers to even pitch for those
gift guides and bring that into the mix. I'm curious
on your I.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Mean, I think the publisher's rule is different than what
I'm talking about is like the consumer recommendation or even
my recommendation as an agent, Like publishers have departments that
prioritize certain seasons or certain lists, and so they're really
thinking about what is front list that they need to promote.
I mean, I would love to see a world in
(21:22):
which the industry, like for every for every three new
things they promote, they include one backlist. I would love that.
Let this podcast be the catalyst for that idea. To
anybody listening, how realistic that is? You know, I understand
that there are considerations across the industry that are you know,
practical financial and need to support the mechanism of publishing
(21:44):
at large, which is something that I also support.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Sure, but you.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Know, throwing a little crazy and that's a secret agent idea.
And here I heard it here first.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, and it is true. All it is new again.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, you know, you know I talked to there's a
public Sure, this is an independent publisher that I that
I've worked with before who has pretty hard and fast
rules about how and when they put books out of
print and not. And they they really don't put books
out of print unless you know, very specific. Everyone has
(22:18):
a threshold. But this is a pretty aggressive is not
the right word, but like a pretty clear boundary around it.
And it's because they've lived through enough things popping back
up in the zeitgeist that having that book available has
really served them and served the author from a sales standpoint.
The flip side of that is, I once sold a
(22:39):
book that you know, was published two years later and
then was out of print within a year, which was absurd.
We were all furious. That is certainly an outlier that
doesn't happen often. But what's the point of even publishing
that book if you're going to put it out of
print after a year? Like a book, a cookbook, you
know it, they take time to get some traction. There's
(22:59):
there's often in a big splash because authors more often
than not are sort of required to have a platform
that their promoting and so they have a community. You
might see a big splash around publication, great pre orders,
but give the book time to find its audience and
its momentum, and it's word of mouth or a word
of you know, word of mouth in the kitchen, so
to speak, in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yes, yes, I feel that's a whole other conversation. Yeah,
into there, but you started to touch a little bit
on brand, and I do want to bring it back
to you, Sally, because I have been a loyal follower here.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
So with e merging up the ECUs Group and JV
and LA in twenty twenty four, how has your role
changed and what did you find yourself leaning into these days.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, so just a tiny bit of history. I joined
the ECUs Group sort of uh in, and I'm like,
I didn't know that that was going to be my
career path. A few years in, Lisa, my mom and
I started talking about if that would be the succession plan.
Then we put a plan in place that evolved. I
eventually took over ownership. Lisa has now retired, and so
(24:07):
about a year after her retirement, I started thinking about
how to offer just more support into the kind of
day to day operations as an agency. And it was
really fun running my own agency, and now it's really
fun merging that and being a part of another agency
and having a team and colleagues. And so in twenty
twenty four, the eCos Group merged with JV in LA
(24:30):
and the JVNLA really had not done a ton in
the culinary space, so It's fun in that I get
to continue to oversee and really spearhead the culinary titles
and lifestyle titles that we have, and I really, you know,
I'm in the middle of my career. I have so
much left to do in terms of representation for my
(24:52):
authors and the list that I'm building, and so I
have more hands on time with my clients, and I
get to really because I have experience as a talent
manager and was trained by a publicist, which means I
think strategically about an author's career, but reply in the
time like in a timely way like a publicist would.
(25:13):
I feel like I bring a unique lens to agenting,
and so I get to do more of that with
my clients. I get to think more big picture. I
get to think about their goals and how it relates,
like how a book fits into the mechanism of everything
they want to do, and walk them through the production
of their book in a little bit more of a
(25:33):
dedicated way. I also tend to attract clients that leve
a lot of communication, high touch handholding, So that's something
that I really enjoy with my clients, and so now
I get to do more of that and being a
part of Java and LA means that I have access
to this brain trust of my colleagues and the global
publishing market. We really at the Echis Group did not
(25:56):
do much in the global market before, and now I
have access and I'm sort of drinking from a fire
hose learning about that side of the industry, which has
been such a delight.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
And Sally, you also have tilted into your sub stack.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Oh right, and I have time to write a new newsletters.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yes, put yourself out there. You are the Not So
Secret Agent. Yeah, yeah, we're here today, and I feel
like that's also been a nice way for you to share. Yeah,
you know what, you just shared your evolution and maybe
even a little evolution that we might see in Agent
as well with some Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
So, I've always loved sharing information about publishing and cookbook publishing.
So I you know, I teach workshops, I speak, and
I've always wanted to have a newsletter, and until we merged,
I really didn't see theoretically time for it. Now it's
still like after very much after hours project. But I
(27:01):
have a newsletter on subsec and it's called Not So
Secret Agent, and I share information primarily about nonfiction publishing
through the lens of my expertise as a cookbook agent.
That being said, though there's a lot of culinary specific
information on my newsletter, I always try to include some
not so secret agent side notes or other information or
(27:23):
context about publishing at large. And there's great agents and
publishing information in the subseac ecosphere, Like there's a bunch
of awesome people writing about publishing stuff, and it's just
been an absolute delight to connect with people and be
a part of that ecosystem.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, it's been fun.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I've enjoyed following along and thank you you know that
opportunity there, And I'm sure as an agent it's interesting
now to be on the content side.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
It is as I am just a walking cliche, let
me tell you, because oh.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
My gosh, I actually have an appreciation.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I don't know how. Yeah, any author that's listening that
writes and then gets feedback or goes through an editorial process,
I vow to you, Yes, I really like I thought
I was like actively listening and supporting my authors before,
but now I understand there's like a new lens that
has been added to the equation. And I really I
(28:20):
don't know why anybody writes books. But kudos to you guys.
Great job out there.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Gosh, I'm sure your clients really appreciate that. Though, speaking
from a place of understanding and from the agent perspective,
not your own content perspective. In general, how are you
seeing substack kind of stack up unintended?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It's been great. I mean, see what was the Instagram
following and engagement is now the newsletter subscriber base and
open rate. It's been It's an it's not a new platform,
but certainly the droves of people that have gone to
substack and helped help it really evolve to what it's become.
(29:01):
It's the plot. It's a place that publishers are paying
a lot of attention to. We're looking at subscriber numbers,
open rate, rate of growth, content comments, reshares, followers, all
of that data that substack supports publishers.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And I think Sally, you had shared with me and
I'd love for you to elaborate on it a little
bit more. You obviously primarily work in culinary yes, yeah,
but you do other nonfiction acquisition as or you know,
agenting as well, and what would take you out of
that comfort zone of culinary, like what are you looking
for when you see metrics where it's like want, I
(29:42):
want to be a potent.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah. I just signed and sold a project by someone
who has been writing on substack for less than two years,
and they had an over two hundred and fifty percent
rate of subscriber growth and they had multiple newsletters go viral,
get hundreds of comments on each of their posts, and
so that was appealing to me. You know both, I mean,
(30:06):
first and foremost for the content, but then also because
they have sort of cracked the code on how to
expand their voice exponentially in this digital platform. And so
the same way I might scout on Instagram or on
TikTok and look at followers, which evolve to engagement, which
involved to like conversion to supporting products of some kind,
(30:29):
now I'm looking at that in the newsletter space and
so I'm scouting there.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah. Yeah, and so our publishers.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, that's important for our listeners to hear. And it's
not easy, right, no, you know, to start out, As
you said.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
The flip side of that, though, is like I've always
been an agent that doesn't get just caught up in
the numbers, Like I will take on people with smaller
quote unquote platforms because I love their idea, I love
their expertise. Often people, you know, when we talk about
the history of cookbook publishing, you didn't necessarily need to
have a social platform to be shown as an expert
(31:05):
in a certain topic in the quote unquotete old days
of cookook publishing. And so I was raised with that.
I know it to be true. I know you can
get a book deal without that, and so I represent
that way still to this day. Is it harder, Yes,
it is, but for your listeners. And from a publicity standpoint,
In almost every M and P call marketing and publicity
call that I have with my authors, we're talking about
(31:27):
newsletter platforms, like what newsletters are reaching the intended audience
or reader of this book, and numbers are a part
of it. But you know, my substack has over it
has less than six thousand people subscribing right now, or
what I would consider like five thousand people are reading
or you know, getting this delivered to them, though that
(31:48):
is a very small number in the publishing world of
what platform is defined as From a numeric standpoint, as
the person living and breathing the comments coming in, I
can feel what sort of core and true audience I have,
And so I am now thinking about what are the
(32:09):
other outlets that my authors can be running excerpts on
or doing interviews with that are newsletter outlets that maybe
they don't have. Maybe they have three thousand people that
read that, maybe they have ten, maybe they have one
hundred and twenty thousand, which obviously is a larger quantity,
but if it reaches the intended audience of your book,
(32:29):
newsletters are a wonderful outlet for publicity opportunities for authors.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
And Sally full circle. That is why we say micro
angling because.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yes, exactly right, yeah, exactly right, right, you're having like
a cookbook agent on. It couldn't be more specialized from
a publishing standpoint, but you can, you know, search and
replace the topic and what we're talking about completely applies.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Right, And it's not just that you can, it's that
you should exactly. You know, when you have the generalist
idea that the broad strokes that's going to be the
bigger push for you know, big big media. But when
you're really looking to connect with those decision makers and
those that will likely pick the book up, it is
when you get so much more granular Soeah.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
I love.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Well before we wrap here, Sally and I know we
had our infamous meeting at the Step and Repeat a
couple of years at the Women's Media event in New York.
I'd love to ask if there are any other events
that you're looking forward to this year because you've been busy.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, there's some really wonderful publishing focused events on the
food side. I attend the ICP Summit, which is in
New York in November, and prior to that, on September
seventeenth is the People of Publishing Conference that the ALA
is putting on, and that is for the industry, by
(33:55):
the industry, So it's not necessarily for authors to attend,
but it's for agents, public editors, publicity, marketing, sales, the
data analysis people at publishing houses. It's really an industry
event and it'll be a day of panels, networking and
professional development and full disclosure, I'm on the planning committee,
(34:16):
so please come and hang out with me.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yes, we're smith. Publicity will be there.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah. Yeah, all that break out and we had to
be there. No fomo here.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Well, Sally, we covered so much here.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Is there anything else that you want to want our
listeners to hear or the best way to connect with you.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
We'll post links as well as your bio.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with
you and connect with your listeners. The best way to
stay in touch is through my newsletter where I write
about publishing and cookbooks. Not So Secret Agent.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Yes, thank you so much, Sally, Thanks Karin, Thank you
for listening to this episode of the Smith Publicity All
Things Book Marketing podcast. To reach us and learn about
our many services, visit Smith Publicity dot com or send
us an email to info at Smith Publicity dot com.
Welcome to the Smith Publicity All Things Book Marketing podcast,
offering tips, insights and advice from the best in the
publishing industry. Hi everyone, and thanks for joining today. I'm
your host Krin Mulder and joined today by our guest
Sally Echis.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Karen Hi, Sally.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
A little bit about Sally for some background here. Sally
Echis is a senior literary agent at JBNLA, where she
spearheads the Echis Group, a boutique culinary division specializing in
cookbook and lifestyle titles. She represents a wide range of culinary, health,
wellness and lifestyle talent, from first time cookbook authors to chefs,
(00:44):
restaurant owners, professional food writers and journalists. From concept to contract.
She has broken over three hundred book deals with top publishers.
She is on the advisory council for the Julia Child
Foundation and an active member of the International Association Culinary Professionals,
Women's Media Group, Shout Out, the Association of American Literary Agents,
(01:06):
and the Cherry Bomb Bomb Squad, among other organizations. She
is a mom, taco lover, and improviser.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Really, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Thank you so much for having me. It's such an
honor to chat with you and hang out with the
Smith Publicity crew.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, definitely, And I have to say this is a
very fun topic for us. We've invited agents to be
on the podcast in the past, but it's always fun
to hear more about that corner of the world. But
you're the first to bring a very specific focus to
culinary publishing, a topic we've not explored, a topic we
(01:43):
absolutely love and I do feel it's just a great
time to chat here. So with the Gift Guide submissions
and holidays kind of weighing on us already. Yeah, So
really love to hear more about you, Sally, and seeing
that you grew up in this world with your mom
Lisa starting the ECUs group what over forty years ago. Yeah,
(02:08):
give us a little background on the history of pulinary
publishing and how you've seen it change. I think it'd
be a great starting point.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, I really grew up in cookbook publishing without
realizing that's the area of focus that I was growing
up in. So Lisa founded what at the time was
a publicity firm before we were an agency, and she
really carved out a specialized category of cookbook publicity very
(02:37):
early on, and this was over forty years ago, back
in what I consider the good old days quote unquote
of publishing, when publishers had big budgets. They were sending
everyone out on multi city media tours, radio, television, print,
tons of print. There were escorts in different cities that
would meet authors and bring them around to a bunch
(02:58):
of different media outlets, and really it was a robust
publicity market. And so I grew up with that framework
of what publicity was and really can be in its
evolution today, and never had any pressure. It wasn't a
family business at the time. If you had asked me,
you know, twenty five years ago, what does my mom do,
I'd say something with food and books. And so I
(03:20):
was on a different career trajectory to get a master's
in social work. I was trained in active listening, crisis counseling,
and negotiation. And so I kind of half jokingly say
that I use those skills every day as.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
An agent and you were destined to be Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, So you know, hat did a breakup, left a
bad decision, moved back home, started helping out at the agency.
At that point, the agency evolved from a PR firm
to a literary agency, primarily, but also with some talent
management support and representation at the time and media training,
and so I started helping out. We had a couple
(03:58):
projects out on submission and I really loved it. I
realized that I've been informally training for this my whole life,
and I can bring this historical knowledge of the publishing
industry to modern day agent ing. And so that's kind
of how my career evolved. And we've always had a
hyper specialization in cookbooks and that has been such a gift.
(04:21):
And also now that I'm sixteen years into the publishing industry,
I realize also, you know, I have some other interests
in the nonfiction space, so I've started to dabble and
explore and really always with a nonfiction focus though.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, so exciting.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I love that your training definitely set you up.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yes, yes, yeah, all of it. Therapist in this world
right exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
When we had connected recently, Sally, we started to talk
about some of the shifts that we're seeing just in
general across the bar and the exculinary market is no
difference to it, and you said the term generalist, how
it's harder and harder to be or to really be
the generalist, and why you are seeing culinary you know,
(05:08):
publicity and marketing and publishing kind of narrowing its focus.
Why do you think the marketplace and publishers are so
much more drawn to niche and these highly specific books
these days.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I think it's partially because there's so much noise across
any category, and so for talking about food, the flip
side of this is that food has been is more
popular than ever. It's like crossing all kinds of different
markets and avenues. However, with all of that noise, it's
(05:40):
just like how do we break through and having a
deep expertise or an area of focus, whether it's a technique,
an ingredient, a topic just like that passion that drives
a person and then layering on the career expertise of
that is a way to stand out in in that
(06:00):
sort of If you have a finite shelf for cookbooks,
then you have an area of focus with a specific
like hyperdniche area of specialized expertise.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, and we truly see that again in every genre
where right, just gravitating towards the very specific content. We're
doing more micro angling these.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, and I know, so what do you mean by
micro angling because I think of like the micro influencer. Yeah,
is that a smith terms? I think it might be.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So we'll look at a project and you know, we'll
find the broad concepts right under that we'll start to
identify if it can be an offshoot to a specific
seasonal tie in. Yeah, exactly, if there's an element sally,
you know, this of the author's background that more of
a front you know, front show to what the book
is about, into more of the author story.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And I think, yeah, yeah, I would say that that's
a great distinction of how the cookbook genre has evolved
and grown too. Is that the story behind the author
and of where they came from and why this is
their passion or expertise is more it's maybe it's always
been interesting to the reader, but it's more of a
(07:18):
requirement and a celebration of part of that story to
tell now. And that's something that publishers are really leaning
into and it's wonderful to see.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
What are some recent examples where you've seen the granular
or hyper targeted cookbooks kind of punched through and just
as an example of what made them work?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
To answer your second question, first, I think what we've
been talking about. They work because they're so specialized and
so they're discoverable. So somebody is going online and looking
for healthy vegetarian bean recipes, they're going to google those,
or they're going to search for those keywords. And if
you are marketing and publicizing your book or your brain
trust successfully, you're going to be in those search results.
(08:04):
And so that's how people are discovered for writing books,
That's how their content is discovered as an as a
real expert on the marketplace. But then also that's what
publishers are looking to publish because they have such a
clear way of like promoting them and marketing them to sales.
You know, it's not if that vegetarian being book. You know,
(08:24):
it's not for people that are looking to center animal
based proteins at the middle of their plate. But we
know what it is and we know what it isn't,
and we're not trying to pretend like the book is
something it's not. We worked on a I worked on
a book that came out this past spring by this
woman Sapna who wrote a book called Dhal Chaval, which
is celebrating vegetarian pulses and rice across Indian her Indian heritage,
(08:50):
and it's a really homey, comforting meal that both Indians
and Americans alike will identify with. It's also very clear
what this book is and what it isn't and so
it was it's just a beautiful celebration of this comfort
food told through an our vedic lens. So there's like
different layers that you can market there and the book.
(09:10):
Once you open the book, there's a lot to be
consumed and learned and for the reader to be educated about.
And it's very clear what the book is topically and
the title in the marketing and the SEO across the board.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and I had pulled a couple ideas together too,
and we did a book last year that was The
Sandwiches of History, huh, And again it was very specific
what was inside. It was a very fun creative platform
and you know, author behind the project. And another was
the the Anime Cafe that we have again very specific
(09:47):
and recipes together from anime characters. And yeah, those definitely
found their their niche audience for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah. We did an unofficial title for actually it's like
fan fiction for food, and it's the Feast of Thorns.
And Roses, which is a fan food book of this
Aqatar series. And so you know, it's like it looks
from a co merching merchandising standpoint, it fits really nicely
(10:16):
along with the series. Barnes and Noble did a special
edition of it where they put it out with the
Aquatar series, and it's like very clear what this book
is and what it's not. And I think the more
we can lean into making it just abundantly obvious for
the consumer, both from a discoverability standpoint, a market standpoint,
and like a product format visual standpoint, the more success
(10:38):
you'll have with a book.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yeah. That brings me back to our We did a
book so many years ago, the Unofficial Harry Potter Cookbook.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
But yeah, I have not thought about that.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah, I also I also, you know, it does
kind of like break my heart when people pitch me
books that have these like ethereal titles and a lot
of like heart and vagueness behind them, because I think,
you know, from a creative standpoint, we want those books
to just slail through the production process as is, and
(11:10):
it's a compromise along the way of what is going
to actually break through that noise, And so that's kind
of what I'm always trying to hold space for as
an agent.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah. Oh, I love that, Sally, And you did bring
that up when we when we recently were speaking, you said,
you do like the generalist books and the books that
encompass so much. What do you think it would take
for those to gain traction again? And I guess my
next question to that then it might fold right in,
is what challenges and shifts do you see happening in
(11:45):
the next one three years in the industry.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I mean, I think let's see, uh, I mean, Solfat
Acid Heats book is a great example of a book
that like has become a ref and a book that
everyone wants on their shelf. And so like, she's created
a both a topic a book and like a sales
(12:09):
history and a personal brand and expertise that people have
rallied behind. And that didn't happen overnight, but it did
get a lot of momentum quickly, and so you know,
that carves out the opportunity for her to do more
broad spectrum books that like cover a lot of content.
(12:31):
Those are just always have been fewer and far between.
And you know, thirty forty fifty years ago in the
cookbook space, there was more space for the definitive book
on XYZ. It's harder to have that now. But I
do think like to counterbalance the side of the scale
that has all of the niche, single subject or like
very dialed in topics, you have the opportunity to like
(12:53):
swing the pendulum to the other side. Every now and then,
it just doesn't happen as often. And that's okay, you know,
I'm okay with that. It makes it that more special
when it does.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah, oh, I love that perspective. You know.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Another big topic, and this was at the US Book Show,
was you know, a bigger discussion point. I feel like
it's happening more and more sometimes in silos, sometimes across
the bigger team meetings that we'll sit on.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Is leveraging the backlist.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I know for cookbook authors and even just the
nonfiction authors that you work with, most are coming in
with a you know, a goal to continue to write. Right, So,
how does the backlist promotion aid in specifically in the
new culinary marketing and publicity campaigns? And I'd love to
(13:44):
just hear your takeaway.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, I have a real sauce spot for the backlist
I'm all about the backlist, and because the frendlist is
short lived, like it's only here for three months six
if you're lucky. And when we talk about backlist, we're
talking about new titles that are coming out each season
from the publisher. So there's like a various Every house
kind of defines it slightly differently, And I'd be curious, like,
at Smith Publicity, how do you guys decide determine like
(14:08):
what is a front list title when people are coming
you to hire you for campaigns. For me, I find
that generally speaking, you can define the backlist is anything
after a year, for sure, but that your publisher is
really going to be prioritizing your book three months prior
to it publishing and three months post pub so you
(14:28):
have this like six month span, which means like you're
there with your book after six months for as long
as it's in print, So why would you abandon it?
Or you know, the flip side is that what else
can you do to leverage them amunting you've gotten from
a from a publicity standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, to
(14:49):
keep the tail and the life of that book as
robust as possible for as long as possible, and that
could be speaking engagements, that could be new relationships that
had the door open when you landed when your book
first came out, Like, Oh, I landed this article or
this relationship with a podcast who had me on to
(15:09):
talk about the book, but now they know I'm an
expert on X y Z subjects, so they have me
back regularly or whatever it is. And you're not necessarily
doing another interview promoting the book that you wrote, but
you're evolving the relationships that that book enabled for the
longevity of your career. Like the backlist is really just
(15:32):
the path that runs parallel to your career and you're
just kind of jogging side by side. I am like
all about the backlist. I wrote a big newsletter about it.
There's a bunch of tips in there on different ways
for people to leverage backlist opportunities because it really is
also so author dependent and book dependent, Like what works
(15:52):
for one author, whether we're talking about the backlist, front list,
or anything does. It's not like a turnkey solution. So
you really want to think about, you know, what speaks
true to who you are, what you know, and how
can you expand that for the life of your book.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
You know, we love having the support when we have
an author who has their own backlist too. Yes, yeah,
so many individual authors on a one to one basis. Yeah,
it's just its content and like right, exactly, Yeah, it's
you know, part of my shtick is in speaking with
prospective authors and clients. It's really you know, the new
(16:30):
book is what brings us together and right, you know,
kind of creates the opportunity to have this conversation. Yeah,
but everything under your brand is bear game. So we're
looking at the content from the backlist. We're looking at
you know, even speaker outlines and coursework that we can
can well.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
And things that are old are new again and vice versa.
And so you know, if you have a book that
came out five ten years ago and it's still in print,
as it's selling at least somewhat steadily, and so your
publishers keeping it in print, and so who knows what's
going to pop up in the zeitgeist or who needs
a quote from what you have an expertise in And
(17:14):
that book is out there hopefully working for you, and
you're working for the book, and that to go hand
in hand and the way that it works for you,
like how you were discoverable. You know, if your book
came out five years ago, discoverability looked very different, and
so constantly feeding that discoverability in today's marketplace is part
of supporting the backlist.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, this is a little bit of a specific question,
but sure, because you have borne a publicist hat, an agent.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Hat as well.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
What role can publisis, agents and maybe even authors play
in keeping the backlist titles alive? Now you mentioned for
authors you have you know, repurposing for speaking or for
consulting services, but agents and publicists too, you know, just
curious on how we can all rally and you know,
kind of keep pushing it.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I think that if the more somebody can be a
resource to the industry as a contributor, the more we
are doing a service to our industry. And so what
I mean by that is like if somebody comes to
me and asks, you know, what's the hot new cookbook?
I could maybe answer that, but I'm also going to offer,
(18:29):
like I have an opportunity to remind or plug, or
support or celebrate something that may not be considered quote
unquote new, but is still completely appropriate to be inserting
into that conversation because it is the legacy of those
that have come before and carved the path of that expertise.
And so that to me is there's like almost this
(18:51):
moral obligation it when appropriate or sometimes even pushing that
envelope a little to say, you know, here's the answer
and X y Z. And that's where we have an opportunity,
whether our role is agent, publicist, editor, author, any anyone
really across all all the production points of publishing.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Well and Sally, you also had previously discussed even the
consumer response. Yeah, y pulling the new book off the shelf. Yeah,
take a look at the other books that are on
there as well, and maybe make another purchase of a
book that's already been Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
I think lately I've been toying with the idea of
reminding people to buy things that are not new. And
I don't necessarily mean purchase like a consumer to purchase
a new product, but taking a look at what are
the books or what is the thing that you're shopping
for that is maybe not the hottest new thing, because
(19:48):
that's going to get the automatic attention or there you
know that there's like a team mobilizing behind it to
get some attention on the thing. You know, go to
your indie bookstore and in addition to like the hot
new releases, ask the bookseller or the person working there, like,
what's a book that you read last year that you
really loved? Or you know, what is a what's a
(20:10):
book that has been sitting on your nightstand forever that
you haven't picked up? It doesn't really matter when it
came out, and certainly we all can relate to like
an over abundant nightstand I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yes, for sure, for sure and swap it.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Around like talk about the you know, talk about those books.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, we're kind of touching a little bit on on
you know, the pitching and the positioning of the books
and the brand. So while we're here, I do just
want to, you know, ask for any insights you would
have for publishers as they are kind of considering this
submissions for holidays, because again Christmas in July is a
real thing. We are starting to really think through that
(20:53):
is it appropriate for publishers to even pitch for those
gift guides and bring that into the mix. I'm curious
on your I.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Mean, I think the publisher's rule is different than what
I'm talking about is like the consumer recommendation or even
my recommendation as an agent, Like publishers have departments that
prioritize certain seasons or certain lists, and so they're really
thinking about what is front list that they need to promote.
I mean, I would love to see a world in
(21:22):
which the industry, like for every for every three new
things they promote, they include one backlist. I would love that.
Let this podcast be the catalyst for that idea. To
anybody listening, how realistic that is? You know, I understand
that there are considerations across the industry that are you know,
practical financial and need to support the mechanism of publishing
(21:44):
at large, which is something that I also support.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Sure, but you.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Know, throwing a little crazy and that's a secret agent idea.
And here I heard it here first.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, and it is true. All it is new again.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, you know, you know I talked to there's a
public Sure, this is an independent publisher that I that
I've worked with before who has pretty hard and fast
rules about how and when they put books out of
print and not. And they they really don't put books
out of print unless you know, very specific. Everyone has
(22:18):
a threshold. But this is a pretty aggressive is not
the right word, but like a pretty clear boundary around it.
And it's because they've lived through enough things popping back
up in the zeitgeist that having that book available has
really served them and served the author from a sales standpoint.
The flip side of that is, I once sold a
(22:39):
book that you know, was published two years later and
then was out of print within a year, which was absurd.
We were all furious. That is certainly an outlier that
doesn't happen often. But what's the point of even publishing
that book if you're going to put it out of
print after a year? Like a book, a cookbook, you
know it, they take time to get some traction. There's
(22:59):
there's often in a big splash because authors more often
than not are sort of required to have a platform
that their promoting and so they have a community. You
might see a big splash around publication, great pre orders,
but give the book time to find its audience and
its momentum, and it's word of mouth or a word
of you know, word of mouth in the kitchen, so
to speak, in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yes, yes, I feel that's a whole other conversation. Yeah,
into there, but you started to touch a little bit
on brand, and I do want to bring it back
to you, Sally, because I have been a loyal follower here.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
So with e merging up the ECUs Group and JV
and LA in twenty twenty four, how has your role
changed and what did you find yourself leaning into these days.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, so just a tiny bit of history. I joined
the ECUs Group sort of uh in, and I'm like,
I didn't know that that was going to be my
career path. A few years in, Lisa, my mom and
I started talking about if that would be the succession plan.
Then we put a plan in place that evolved. I
eventually took over ownership. Lisa has now retired, and so
(24:07):
about a year after her retirement, I started thinking about
how to offer just more support into the kind of
day to day operations as an agency. And it was
really fun running my own agency, and now it's really
fun merging that and being a part of another agency
and having a team and colleagues. And so in twenty
twenty four, the eCos Group merged with JV in LA
(24:30):
and the JVNLA really had not done a ton in
the culinary space, so It's fun in that I get
to continue to oversee and really spearhead the culinary titles
and lifestyle titles that we have, and I really, you know,
I'm in the middle of my career. I have so
much left to do in terms of representation for my
(24:52):
authors and the list that I'm building, and so I
have more hands on time with my clients, and I
get to really because I have experience as a talent
manager and was trained by a publicist, which means I
think strategically about an author's career, but reply in the
time like in a timely way like a publicist would.
(25:13):
I feel like I bring a unique lens to agenting,
and so I get to do more of that with
my clients. I get to think more big picture. I
get to think about their goals and how it relates,
like how a book fits into the mechanism of everything
they want to do, and walk them through the production
of their book in a little bit more of a
(25:33):
dedicated way. I also tend to attract clients that leve
a lot of communication, high touch handholding, So that's something
that I really enjoy with my clients, and so now
I get to do more of that and being a
part of Java and LA means that I have access
to this brain trust of my colleagues and the global
publishing market. We really at the Echis Group did not
(25:56):
do much in the global market before, and now I
have access and I'm sort of drinking from a fire
hose learning about that side of the industry, which has
been such a delight.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
And Sally, you also have tilted into your sub stack.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Oh right, and I have time to write a new newsletters.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yes, put yourself out there. You are the Not So
Secret Agent. Yeah, yeah, we're here today, and I feel
like that's also been a nice way for you to share. Yeah,
you know what, you just shared your evolution and maybe
even a little evolution that we might see in Agent
as well with some Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
So, I've always loved sharing information about publishing and cookbook publishing.
So I you know, I teach workshops, I speak, and
I've always wanted to have a newsletter, and until we merged,
I really didn't see theoretically time for it. Now it's
still like after very much after hours project. But I
(27:01):
have a newsletter on subsec and it's called Not So
Secret Agent, and I share information primarily about nonfiction publishing
through the lens of my expertise as a cookbook agent.
That being said, though there's a lot of culinary specific
information on my newsletter, I always try to include some
not so secret agent side notes or other information or
(27:23):
context about publishing at large. And there's great agents and
publishing information in the subseac ecosphere, Like there's a bunch
of awesome people writing about publishing stuff, and it's just
been an absolute delight to connect with people and be
a part of that ecosystem.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Well, it's been fun.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
I've enjoyed following along and thank you you know that
opportunity there, And I'm sure as an agent it's interesting
now to be on the content side.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
It is as I am just a walking cliche, let
me tell you, because oh.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
My gosh, I actually have an appreciation.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I don't know how. Yeah, any author that's listening that
writes and then gets feedback or goes through an editorial process,
I vow to you, Yes, I really like I thought
I was like actively listening and supporting my authors before,
but now I understand there's like a new lens that
has been added to the equation. And I really I
(28:20):
don't know why anybody writes books. But kudos to you guys.
Great job out there.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Gosh, I'm sure your clients really appreciate that. Though, speaking
from a place of understanding and from the agent perspective,
not your own content perspective. In general, how are you
seeing substack kind of stack up unintended?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
It's been great. I mean, see what was the Instagram
following and engagement is now the newsletter subscriber base and
open rate. It's been It's an it's not a new platform,
but certainly the droves of people that have gone to
substack and helped help it really evolve to what it's become.
(29:01):
It's the plot. It's a place that publishers are paying
a lot of attention to. We're looking at subscriber numbers,
open rate, rate of growth, content comments, reshares, followers, all
of that data that substack supports publishers.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And I think Sally, you had shared with me and
I'd love for you to elaborate on it a little
bit more. You obviously primarily work in culinary yes, yeah,
but you do other nonfiction acquisition as or you know,
agenting as well, and what would take you out of
that comfort zone of culinary, like what are you looking
for when you see metrics where it's like want, I
(29:42):
want to be a potent.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah. I just signed and sold a project by someone
who has been writing on substack for less than two years,
and they had an over two hundred and fifty percent
rate of subscriber growth and they had multiple newsletters go viral,
get hundreds of comments on each of their posts, and
so that was appealing to me. You know both, I mean,
(30:06):
first and foremost for the content, but then also because
they have sort of cracked the code on how to
expand their voice exponentially in this digital platform. And so
the same way I might scout on Instagram or on
TikTok and look at followers, which evolve to engagement, which
involved to like conversion to supporting products of some kind,
(30:29):
now I'm looking at that in the newsletter space and
so I'm scouting there.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah. Yeah, and so our publishers.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, that's important for our listeners to hear. And it's
not easy, right, no, you know, to start out, As
you said.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
The flip side of that, though, is like I've always
been an agent that doesn't get just caught up in
the numbers, Like I will take on people with smaller
quote unquote platforms because I love their idea, I love
their expertise. Often people, you know, when we talk about
the history of cookbook publishing, you didn't necessarily need to
have a social platform to be shown as an expert
(31:05):
in a certain topic in the quote unquotete old days
of cookook publishing. And so I was raised with that.
I know it to be true. I know you can
get a book deal without that, and so I represent
that way still to this day. Is it harder, Yes,
it is, but for your listeners. And from a publicity standpoint,
In almost every M and P call marketing and publicity
call that I have with my authors, we're talking about
(31:27):
newsletter platforms, like what newsletters are reaching the intended audience
or reader of this book, and numbers are a part
of it. But you know, my substack has over it
has less than six thousand people subscribing right now, or
what I would consider like five thousand people are reading
or you know, getting this delivered to them, though that
(31:48):
is a very small number in the publishing world of
what platform is defined as From a numeric standpoint, as
the person living and breathing the comments coming in, I
can feel what sort of core and true audience I have,
And so I am now thinking about what are the
(32:09):
other outlets that my authors can be running excerpts on
or doing interviews with that are newsletter outlets that maybe
they don't have. Maybe they have three thousand people that
read that, maybe they have ten, maybe they have one
hundred and twenty thousand, which obviously is a larger quantity,
but if it reaches the intended audience of your book,
(32:29):
newsletters are a wonderful outlet for publicity opportunities for authors.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
And Sally full circle. That is why we say micro
angling because.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yes, exactly right, yeah, exactly right, right, you're having like
a cookbook agent on. It couldn't be more specialized from
a publishing standpoint, but you can, you know, search and
replace the topic and what we're talking about completely applies.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Right, And it's not just that you can, it's that
you should exactly. You know, when you have the generalist
idea that the broad strokes that's going to be the
bigger push for you know, big big media. But when
you're really looking to connect with those decision makers and
those that will likely pick the book up, it is
when you get so much more granular Soeah.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
I love.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Well before we wrap here, Sally and I know we
had our infamous meeting at the Step and Repeat a
couple of years at the Women's Media event in New York.
I'd love to ask if there are any other events
that you're looking forward to this year because you've been busy.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, there's some really wonderful publishing focused events on the
food side. I attend the ICP Summit, which is in
New York in November, and prior to that, on September
seventeenth is the People of Publishing Conference that the ALA
is putting on, and that is for the industry, by
(33:55):
the industry, So it's not necessarily for authors to attend,
but it's for agents, public editors, publicity, marketing, sales, the
data analysis people at publishing houses. It's really an industry
event and it'll be a day of panels, networking and
professional development and full disclosure, I'm on the planning committee,
(34:16):
so please come and hang out with me.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yes, we're smith. Publicity will be there.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah. Yeah, all that break out and we had to
be there. No fomo here.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Well, Sally, we covered so much here.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Is there anything else that you want to want our
listeners to hear or the best way to connect with you.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
We'll post links as well as your bio.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with
you and connect with your listeners. The best way to
stay in touch is through my newsletter where I write
about publishing and cookbooks. Not So Secret Agent.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Yes, thank you so much, Sally, Thanks Karin, Thank you
for listening to this episode of the Smith Publicity All
Things Book Marketing podcast. To reach us and learn about
our many services, visit Smith Publicity dot com or send
us an email to info at Smith Publicity dot com.
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