November 13, 2025 • 9 mins
Rock and roll is not rock and roll without a beat. John Lingan's new book, BACKBEATS: A History of Rock and Roll in 15 Drummers (Scribner; Publication date: November 11, 2025) is an electrifying journey through the history of rock and roll, told through the lives of fifteen iconic drummers and their percussion rivals-from John Bonham and Charlie Watts to Ringo Starr and Questlove.Rock and roll thrives on rhythm, but the drummers who drive that pulse often stay in the shadows. In BACKBEATS, acclaimed music historian John Lingan brings these unsung heroes into the spotlight, delivering a fascinating journey through six decades of rock history.Lingan's deep research and vivid storytelling explores the lives of fifteen pathbreaking drummers and their fellow timekeepers-men and women who together laid down the beat of an era. From Bernard Purdie's legendary work with Aretha Franklin to Dave Grohl's funk- and punk-indebted swing for Nirvana, these drummers redefined what was possible in pop music. Iconic figures like Ringo Starr, whose inventive style transformed the Beatles, and Charlie Watts, the steady backbone of the Rolling Stones, take center stage. But Lingan doesn't stop there-he also shines a light on Hal Blaine, the backbone of the LA studio scene's "Wrecking Crew," groundbreaking, underappreciated talents like Maureen Tucker of The Velvet Underground, whose minimalist beats rewrote the rulebook, and Sam Lay, a pivotal figure in rock's evolution from the blues.Packed with insider stories and exclusive interviews-from Robert Plant's reflections on Led Zeppelin's legendary sessions to revered recording engineer Steve Albini's behind-the-scenes accounts-BACKBEATS offers an eye-opening glimpse into some of rock's most unforgettable moments, including the seismic shift of Bob Dylan going electric at Newport, James Brown's explosive creation of funk in the late sixties, and Slayer's role in the birth of LA thrash metal in the early eighties.More than just a tribute to an unrecognized group of virtuosos, this book is a love letter to the art of drumming itself. BACKBEATS shows how these remarkable artists not only kept the beat but drove rock and roll forward. It's a must-read for any music lover, offering a fresh and thrilling perspective on a story we only thought we knew.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-like-it-s-live--4113802/support.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/arroe-collins-like-it-s-live--4113802/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We live in a society where there is so much
going on all at one time. How are you expected
to keep up? Arro dot netret net not one podcast,
there are seventeen to choose from because it deals with
everyday life and how we are moving through it. Aro
dot net thank you so much for your support. How
are you doing today? John?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Doing great? How are you guys?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Absolutely fantastic. I gotta ask you a question right off
the top here, because it was the drummer of Anthrax
that sat down with me one time and he goes,
you have no idea what it's like to behind what
it's like to be behind that drum set in the
way that it is my mother's heartbeat that I'm bringing
to life. How many times have you heard that from
a drummer?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
No, I have to say never.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I mean, that's a very particularly, a very particular passionate exercise.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
But I absolutely believe that.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, those thrash metal drummers were really bringing it, So
there's definitely some passion in there for sure.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well there's something back there, because I mean, how do
you explain what it is that they're doing? Because if
you think that Eddie van Halen got lost playing that
guitar or or even Jimmy Page. Oh my god, just
just look at the drummers that we've had over the years,
such as John Bonham, who totally got lost on their instruments.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, you know, I think the difference is, you know,
drummers kind of have to even when they get a
little lost, you still have to keep it together, you know,
Like you know, like Jimmy Page, it's great to watch
him solo and everything, but he does hit some boem
notes occasionally, and that's just part of the fun. With
John Bonham though, It's like you can't really have He's
got to be the rock solid part of that. So,
(01:34):
you know, even though he he was not rock solid
in his personal life, for you know, as far as
what he was doing on stage, his drumming always was
so at least had to keep that, you know, that
that steady beat going on.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The book we're talking about his back Beats, A History
of Rock and Roll. I was with one of the
performers on this edition of NBC's The Voice yesterday. He's
a drummer, and I asked him, I said, what are
you doing to get to the front of the stage?
And that is his goal because he wants to make
sure that the guy that's or the girl that's always
in the back of the stage starts getting some love upfront.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, you know, and interesting, one of the one of
the drummers in this book that that sort of originated
that as a guy named Bernard Purdy who went by
Pretty Purdy in the in the sixties and seventies, and
he was, you know, he started his career, I mean,
he was a he was a session musician who played
like in the Brill Building in the nineteen sixties and
(02:30):
then eventually became like a side man for Steely Dan
and Aretha Franklin and a bunch of other people. And
he was really an icon not only with his drumming,
but in terms of like pushing for greater recognition, like
name recognition for studio musicians. And you know, I think
it's terrific that that there's people out there who, you know,
(02:54):
want to keep doing that and want to make sure
that you know, those those those session musicians who make
these shows go on, you know, don't get lost in
the in the dark lights at the back of the stage.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, I'm so glad that you brought up Bernard Pretty
and the reason Why is because I've always believed that
Bernard was one of those musicians, those drummers that would
not have been recognized if it wasn't for the pied
pipers of rock and roll. Those are the late night
disc jockeys that would sit down with these songs that
radio wouldn't play, and damn if they didn't play them,
and they would get in there and they would tell
the stories of people like Bernard and say, you gotta
(03:25):
listen to this guy in the drums. This is what
he's doing, and that's the connection that seems to be
missing until you get your book, John.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
There you go. Yeah, I mean he was. He was
a great example.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
He was really there was an era of time when
a musician would go in perform on our song and
then it would come out and their name wouldn't be
anywhere on it. He was really one of the people
that would you know, he wasn't like a union leader
or anything like that, but he would really advocate for
like greater visibility for people, and that included like in
(03:59):
liner no and that kind of thing. And yeah, absolutely
with disc jockeys in terms of this, uh, in terms
of this stuff, I mean it really you uh you had,
you had to be a person who knew who these
players were to really understand them. Another guy like who
is he has a chapter in the book is Al
Jackson Junior from Booker T and the MGS. So like,
(04:20):
he's a guy. So maybe if you followed Booker T
and the MGS, you would know him, but at that
time you wouldn't know necessarily that they were also the
house band at Stax Records. So if you were listening
to any number of Stax artists like Carla Thomas or
you know, Sam and Dave, you know that kind of thing,
(04:41):
you're hearing his You're you're hearing his drumming too. That's
the same guy from Green Onions. And so I'm as
absolutely with you that it was like it was musicians
and disc jockeys that sort of kept the flame alive
for those kinds of musicians for a long time.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Please do not move. There's more with John Lingen coming
him next. The name of the book Back Beats, A
History of Rock and Roll. We are back with John Lingen.
How didn't James Brown's drummer just get up and walk out?
Because James had his own funk in his own beat,
and that meant that drum better be in tune with
James imagination.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Well he event I mean, we're talking about the James
Bown drummer that's that has a chapter here is Clyde Stubblefield,
who did eventually leave, but it did take him a while,
you know, but like he, you know, he Brown was
tough man and like he, I mean, that's like one
of the most fun bands to listen to and what
(05:39):
sounds like one of the least fun bands to play
in because like you know, as as guys were playing,
if they missed a note or misplayed or whatever, he
would sort of just like point to them, and that
meant you were fine. Like he was taking money out
of your out of your uh your bill that night
and uh your payment that night, and like, yeah, that
was and it's pretty disrespectful. And he was also pretty
(06:00):
disrespectful in the way that like his songwriting.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Credits went down.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Like for example, this guy we're talking about, Clyde Stubblefield,
is the drummer on a track called Funky Drummer by
James Brown, which was, you know, not even a big
single or anything, but later became a formative hip hop sample.
So there's a drum break in this song, not even
like the actual melody, but just the solo drum break
(06:26):
that becomes one of the most sampled beats of all time.
And all of the money from that goes to James
Brown because he's listed as the composer of the song.
And like that's sort of an example of what we're
talking about of like it's not just a matter of
like who gets credit in the liner notes and who
gets credit like in terms, it's like this is really
(06:48):
life and death for a lot of people, and like
you know who gets who gets paid, and who gets
you know, artistic credit for these creations. And you know,
we absolutely should give James Brown, you know, all of
his uh like his credit for the for the breakthroughs
he went, but like his his bands and in particular
(07:10):
his drummers really deserve a lot of that credit as well.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And going through your book and talking so wide open
with this book with other people, the first there was
a new mantra that was planted in my heart when
it comes to the word talent. Yeah, I've got the talent,
but talent isn't talent. It's somebody else's reason to make money.
And I don't get any of it. And that's what
I got out of your book is that all of
these drummers, man, even with the group Toto and Slayer
(07:32):
and you can go right down this list, they did
not get the kudos they deserve. Even Ringo Star.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, you know, there's some some did better than others, absolutely,
but you know, there's it's uh, yeah, I mean, I
don't think many people have picked up drumsticks with the
intention of getting rich, you know, and uh, you know
which just and but that's you know, and and then
on top of that, yeah, it's music, it's entertainment. It's
(08:02):
an exploitative industry, and you know, drummers I think I
think the sampling thing in particular is really tough because
you know, it was drummers largely who were you know,
like when we talk about those sort of foundational hip
hop beats and that kind of stuff, those were drum beats.
They were sampling more than like horn lines necessarily, and
(08:23):
so you know, it was really it was like these
guys sort of the the understanding of what their music
was and what their instrument was really expanded years after
they died sometimes, you know, and it was like, you know,
they had a whole sort of second legacy after their
careers were over in some cases. So you know, it's
always a fight to get people the right amount of
(08:43):
credit and to make people understand everything that goes into
great music and great.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Art like this. Dude, you've got to come back to
this show. We're just scratching the surface on this thing.
I want to talk with you even more in the future,
so please make your way back.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Love it. Sure excellent.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Will you be reallyant today?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Okay, John, thanks so much, you guys. This is really fun.
We live in a society where there is so much
going on all at one time. How are you expected
to keep up? Arro dot netret net not one podcast,
there are seventeen to choose from because it deals with
everyday life and how we are moving through it. Aro
dot net thank you so much for your support. How
are you doing today? John?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Doing great? How are you guys?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Absolutely fantastic. I gotta ask you a question right off
the top here, because it was the drummer of Anthrax
that sat down with me one time and he goes,
you have no idea what it's like to behind what
it's like to be behind that drum set in the
way that it is my mother's heartbeat that I'm bringing
to life. How many times have you heard that from
a drummer?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
No, I have to say never.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I mean, that's a very particularly, a very particular passionate exercise.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
But I absolutely believe that.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, those thrash metal drummers were really bringing it, So
there's definitely some passion in there for sure.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well there's something back there, because I mean, how do
you explain what it is that they're doing? Because if
you think that Eddie van Halen got lost playing that
guitar or or even Jimmy Page. Oh my god, just
just look at the drummers that we've had over the years,
such as John Bonham, who totally got lost on their instruments.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Yeah, you know, I think the difference is, you know,
drummers kind of have to even when they get a
little lost, you still have to keep it together, you know,
Like you know, like Jimmy Page, it's great to watch
him solo and everything, but he does hit some boem
notes occasionally, and that's just part of the fun. With
John Bonham though, It's like you can't really have He's
got to be the rock solid part of that. So,
(01:34):
you know, even though he he was not rock solid
in his personal life, for you know, as far as
what he was doing on stage, his drumming always was
so at least had to keep that, you know, that
that steady beat going on.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The book we're talking about his back Beats, A History
of Rock and Roll. I was with one of the
performers on this edition of NBC's The Voice yesterday. He's
a drummer, and I asked him, I said, what are
you doing to get to the front of the stage?
And that is his goal because he wants to make
sure that the guy that's or the girl that's always
in the back of the stage starts getting some love upfront.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, you know, and interesting, one of the one of
the drummers in this book that that sort of originated
that as a guy named Bernard Purdy who went by
Pretty Purdy in the in the sixties and seventies, and
he was, you know, he started his career, I mean,
he was a he was a session musician who played
like in the Brill Building in the nineteen sixties and
(02:30):
then eventually became like a side man for Steely Dan
and Aretha Franklin and a bunch of other people. And
he was really an icon not only with his drumming,
but in terms of like pushing for greater recognition, like
name recognition for studio musicians. And you know, I think
it's terrific that that there's people out there who, you know,
(02:54):
want to keep doing that and want to make sure
that you know, those those those session musicians who make
these shows go on, you know, don't get lost in
the in the dark lights at the back of the stage.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, I'm so glad that you brought up Bernard Pretty
and the reason Why is because I've always believed that
Bernard was one of those musicians, those drummers that would
not have been recognized if it wasn't for the pied
pipers of rock and roll. Those are the late night
disc jockeys that would sit down with these songs that
radio wouldn't play, and damn if they didn't play them,
and they would get in there and they would tell
the stories of people like Bernard and say, you gotta
(03:25):
listen to this guy in the drums. This is what
he's doing, and that's the connection that seems to be
missing until you get your book, John.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
There you go. Yeah, I mean he was. He was
a great example.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
He was really there was an era of time when
a musician would go in perform on our song and
then it would come out and their name wouldn't be
anywhere on it. He was really one of the people
that would you know, he wasn't like a union leader
or anything like that, but he would really advocate for
like greater visibility for people, and that included like in
(03:59):
liner no and that kind of thing. And yeah, absolutely
with disc jockeys in terms of this, uh, in terms
of this stuff, I mean it really you uh you had,
you had to be a person who knew who these
players were to really understand them. Another guy like who
is he has a chapter in the book is Al
Jackson Junior from Booker T and the MGS. So like,
(04:20):
he's a guy. So maybe if you followed Booker T
and the MGS, you would know him, but at that
time you wouldn't know necessarily that they were also the
house band at Stax Records. So if you were listening
to any number of Stax artists like Carla Thomas or
you know, Sam and Dave, you know that kind of thing,
(04:41):
you're hearing his You're you're hearing his drumming too. That's
the same guy from Green Onions. And so I'm as
absolutely with you that it was like it was musicians
and disc jockeys that sort of kept the flame alive
for those kinds of musicians for a long time.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Please do not move. There's more with John Lingen coming
him next. The name of the book Back Beats, A
History of Rock and Roll. We are back with John Lingen.
How didn't James Brown's drummer just get up and walk out?
Because James had his own funk in his own beat,
and that meant that drum better be in tune with
James imagination.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Well he event I mean, we're talking about the James
Bown drummer that's that has a chapter here is Clyde Stubblefield,
who did eventually leave, but it did take him a while,
you know, but like he, you know, he Brown was
tough man and like he, I mean, that's like one
of the most fun bands to listen to and what
(05:39):
sounds like one of the least fun bands to play
in because like you know, as as guys were playing,
if they missed a note or misplayed or whatever, he
would sort of just like point to them, and that
meant you were fine. Like he was taking money out
of your out of your uh your bill that night
and uh your payment that night, and like, yeah, that
was and it's pretty disrespectful. And he was also pretty
(06:00):
disrespectful in the way that like his songwriting.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Credits went down.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Like for example, this guy we're talking about, Clyde Stubblefield,
is the drummer on a track called Funky Drummer by
James Brown, which was, you know, not even a big
single or anything, but later became a formative hip hop sample.
So there's a drum break in this song, not even
like the actual melody, but just the solo drum break
(06:26):
that becomes one of the most sampled beats of all time.
And all of the money from that goes to James
Brown because he's listed as the composer of the song.
And like that's sort of an example of what we're
talking about of like it's not just a matter of
like who gets credit in the liner notes and who
gets credit like in terms, it's like this is really
(06:48):
life and death for a lot of people, and like
you know who gets who gets paid, and who gets
you know, artistic credit for these creations. And you know,
we absolutely should give James Brown, you know, all of
his uh like his credit for the for the breakthroughs
he went, but like his his bands and in particular
(07:10):
his drummers really deserve a lot of that credit as well.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And going through your book and talking so wide open
with this book with other people, the first there was
a new mantra that was planted in my heart when
it comes to the word talent. Yeah, I've got the talent,
but talent isn't talent. It's somebody else's reason to make money.
And I don't get any of it. And that's what
I got out of your book is that all of
these drummers, man, even with the group Toto and Slayer
(07:32):
and you can go right down this list, they did
not get the kudos they deserve. Even Ringo Star.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, you know, there's some some did better than others, absolutely,
but you know, there's it's uh, yeah, I mean, I
don't think many people have picked up drumsticks with the
intention of getting rich, you know, and uh, you know
which just and but that's you know, and and then
on top of that, yeah, it's music, it's entertainment. It's
(08:02):
an exploitative industry, and you know, drummers I think I
think the sampling thing in particular is really tough because
you know, it was drummers largely who were you know,
like when we talk about those sort of foundational hip
hop beats and that kind of stuff, those were drum beats.
They were sampling more than like horn lines necessarily, and
(08:23):
so you know, it was really it was like these
guys sort of the the understanding of what their music
was and what their instrument was really expanded years after
they died sometimes, you know, and it was like, you know,
they had a whole sort of second legacy after their
careers were over in some cases. So you know, it's
always a fight to get people the right amount of
(08:43):
credit and to make people understand everything that goes into
great music and great.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Art like this. Dude, you've got to come back to
this show. We're just scratching the surface on this thing.
I want to talk with you even more in the future,
so please make your way back.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Love it. Sure excellent.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Will you be reallyant today?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Okay, John, thanks so much, you guys. This is really fun.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.