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November 19, 2025 10 mins
In Captain’s Dinner: A Shipwreck, an Act of Cannibalism, and a Murder Trial That Changed Legal History, acclaimed legal historian and New York Times bestselling author Adam Cohen masterfully reconstructs the ill-fated 1884 voyage of the yacht Mignonette.  On May 19, 1884, the yacht set sail from England to Australia. Soon, Captain Thomas Dudley and his crew found themselves adrift in a tiny lifeboat when their vessel sank in the Atlantic. Unfortunately, no one had thought ahead to stock the lifeboat with fresh water and food, and as days turned to weeks, the men faced an unthinkable choice: starve to death or resort to cannibalism. Their decision to sacrifice the youngest, 17-year-old cabin boy Richard Parker, ignited a firestorm of controversy upon their rescue. Instead of being hailed as heroes and survivors, Dudley and his crew found themselves at the center of a landmark murder trial that would transform law and ethics forever. In CAPTAIN’S DINNER, Cohen brings to life both the harrowing weeks at sea and the subsequent sensational trial. Through this Victorian tragedy, Cohen reveals an enduring conflict between humanity's primal instincts and its highest moral principles, forcing readers to ask how far they would go to stay alive? 

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, if you're like me, you get a little tired
of searching for your favorite podcast on one of those
streaming outfits. You type something in and they say, oh,
did you mean this? No, the only place to go
is ero dot net A R r oe dot net.
All seventeen of my podcasts are waiting for you to
enjoy and to learn something. Thanks for supporting me throughout
the years. Hello, and good morning, Adam. How are you

(00:20):
doing today?

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Very well? Thank you?

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Dude. I got to talk to you about this book
because this is a conversation starter and this I gotta
tell you. I spent a long time since my wife
and I have shared a book and we're struggling to
get it from each other's hands and that and that's
what's great about this book is that we were coming
in with our own interpretations. You're giving us this information.
And dude, did you feel like that people took sides too?

(00:45):
Is it cannibalism or is it legal? I mean, you
really hit a hot subject here, dude.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
People are strongly on both sides as far as I candel.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Oh my god, and how did you even bump into
this project? Because I mean we're talking about eighteen eighty four.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Here, Adam, Well, the story is first year of law school,
my law school roommate and I gave a Halloween party,
come as your favorite case or legal doctrine, and my roommate,
who is now a federal judge in New York, dressed
up as the cannibal a captain. He went to the
supermarket and he got raw chicken and he spattered it
with ketchup and he wore it around his neck. And

(01:20):
you know, that made a big impression on me.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
But you know what's really interesting about this, Adam, is
that the way that the laws were written in eighteen
eighty four versus where we are presently in twenty twenty five,
I think it could sway in any direction because it
is a little bit more lenient and or understandable when
it comes to things like this.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, you know, eighteen eighty four was actually a really
interesting time because England was changing its mind because for
centuries England allowed cannibalism, and see they never prosecuted it.
Suddenly in eighteen eighty four, with this case, they decided,
you know what, we made a mistake. This is barbaric
and it's murder. We're not going to allow it anymore.
So we really see the beginning of the modern age there,
which then comes all the way up our time.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
But you know, Adam, we have all been locked into
those conversations of what would you do if you were
on a plane, if you were on a ship. I mean,
every one of us have to have gone through this
question period, absolutely, and you know you're torn.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Even if you believe, as some people do utilitarians, you
know it's better to kill one person that three people
can live. Some people don't believe that, ky you would
you really be able to go up to the seventeen
year old cabin boy who you've been sailing within a
boat for months and take a knife and slit his
throat and begin drinking his blood, Even if you believe
in it in theory, it's really gross and difficult to

(02:35):
think about in practice.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Well, where my heart stopped was that Captain Dudley had
to really do a real gut check here because he thought, well,
we're going to be remembered as heroes. That just did
not happen. For mister Dudley, That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
He was telling the story proudly. He was taking back souvenirs,
made them. He made the boat the rescue and take
back the lifeboat because he wanted to tell the story
really well. And he was shocked when he got to
fell with England that they slapped handcuffs on him and
accuse him of murder.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh my god, I just when you think you're doing
right once again. It's a position that no wonder people
are addicted to this book when we think we're doing right,
and it's the opposite attraction.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's exactly right, and you can think like, of course
I'm doing the right thing, and then suddenly you go
home and everyone says you just killed a seventeen year
old boat boy dragons flood. You know that's not so great.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
See. And that's that's why I needed to talk to you,
because because my head is not on straight when it
comes to this book, because I know what my side is,
I know what my wife's side is, and I need
someone with your clear focus to give me direction.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Here I am on the side of the cabin boy
had the right to live. Every morning he woke up
in that boat saying, perhaps today's the day we're going
to see land, or we're going to be rescued by
a boat. He had the right to live his life
as long as he could, hoping to be rescued, and
no one had the right to come along and say,
you know, we've done some calculations and it'd be better

(03:58):
for humanity if we save three lives by killing you.
He did not, and the katy did not have the
right to do that as far as I see it.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Wow, now in this day and age, because you know
how addicted we are to true crime, is this looked
upon as being a true crime story or are we
talking about a survivalist guide here.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
It's a little bit of both. But I will say
I was very pleased when I looked at on Amazon
the Amazon page, this is the first book I've written
that is actually listed in the category of murder and mayhem.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
It was Okay, how do you deal with that? Because
my first two books went into a category that I
did not give them permission to put me in. How
did you deal with that going into that category? Because
I mean, we all have visions as authors that oh,
this is where I'm going to be, this is my
section of the bookstore. We miss out.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, I will say, I'm going to give Amazon some credit.
They put you in multiple categories, so I think it's
mainly thought of as a legal book, and I see
it's mainly listed in legal history. That's first. But they
put murdered Mayhem in there as well. And you know what,
if it attracts readers who are are partial that category,
I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
Please do not move. There's more with Adam Cohen coming
up next, the name of the book, Captain's Dinner. We're
back with author and historian Adam Cohen. You know, one
of the things that I was really afraid of after
I got past this unbelievable front cover was I was
so afraid that you were going to turn it into
a journalist news story. Not so much. No, you went

(05:22):
the way of a narrative. No wonder. I feel so
comfortable inside your paragraphs.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, thanks so much. I really love being able to
tell the story about being on the open sea, which
is it's almost a movie like story, being out there,
first in the yacht, seeing the big wave that comes
and shipwrecks that boat, escaping just narrowly in a lifeboat,
trying to survive in that life boat. When the first
night there in the lifeboat, a shark becomes it begins

(05:48):
at hitting them from underneath and tries to capsize them.
So it really is a drama that I really felt
cried out to be written in dramatic form.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Now, Adam, you know how we are. We like to
judge our books by their cover. And I'll tell you what,
when we think of that ocean in the middle of
the night, we don't think of the waves that you've
got on this picture on the front cover of this book,
because I mean, you totally forget that that ocean is
a monster. It does want to devour you. And if
it's sending out a shark to me in my heart,
that was a warning sign.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
I think that's right. And also remember they were in
a much larger boat. They were in a yacht that
was destroyed by a wave, and then they go in
this tiny, little lifeboat. What are their chances in a
little lifeboat if the bigger boat was just destroyed by
a storm. They were very nervous, and were right to
be nervous that their lives could end at any minute
in that boat.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
So in a position like this, to me, the captain
is no longer the captain. You are now one of us.
We have got to become one in order to survive
on this on this life boat.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
That's exactly right. And you know the captain normally had
you know, he had unchecked power on a boat, but
once they were in that lifeboat, he really didn't feel
he needed to talk to the others about what they
should do. And ye, he didn't kill the cabin boy
told his mate agreed with him, So you're right, it
became a little bit more collaborative. Although they never talked
to the cabin boy, They never asked him how he

(07:05):
felt about being killed.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, but can you imagine being a fly on the
wall when they were discussing this, because you know, it's
one of those and I'll bet you they asked it
a million times. What do you want to do? So,
what do you think we should do? Oh? You think
we should contact somebody? What do you want to do?
And because once again we've been in that position where
we want to know, but we're relying on other people
to give us that guidance.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
That's right. And you know, the first suggestion the captain
made was to draw lots, to draw straws would have
an equal chance of dying, but the mate didn't go
along with that. The mate only went along with killing
someone once the captain said, well, we're not going to
draw lots, We're just going to kill the cabin boy.
Then suddenly the maid was like, okay, I'm fine with that.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
See I'm a firm believer that before anything happens, there's
a story beforehand. And you prove that inside these pages
that the captain was given all of these warning signs
before even hitting that water, but he didn't follow his
gut feeling.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
That's exactly right. And a lot of people were saying,
you know, so it is too far to go from
England to Australia in a yacht. I mean, it had
been done before, but it was dangerous. There were big waves,
there were icebergs. A lot of people told all four
of the men not to go, but honestly, they wanted
the money and they also wanted to see Australia because
all four of them were thinking about maybe moving from

(08:17):
England to Australia, so they had some incentives to go,
and it made them overlook the real dangers of this trip,
which they probably should not have undertaken.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, Noe to listeners and readers eighteen eighty four. There
were no digital devices on board. They had to do
it the old fashioned way in order to survive going
to Australia, and that, to me, that's a wake up
call for you, for us right here in twenty twenty five,
when we could lose.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
It all exactly. What first step is Always make sure
your ship is big enough.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, I would love to see your research, because I
am a show prep pig, I really do. I've got
to categorize it, I've got to use continuity. I would
love to see how you scribbled this into place and
then it became this unbelievable book that is so attractive.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
You know. I had a lot of fun going to
the National Archives in London where all these papers are,
where you can actually read the accountant and the captain
wrote in his own handwriting about what happened. It really
takes you to the place in time to be able
to hold these documents and realize this is actually what
the cannibal captain wrote after he got back to England.
It's really quite a mind blower.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Can you, Adam? Could you handle that being called cannibal? Adam?
I don't think I can live with that. I mean,
the cannibal captain, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
You know, it was worse than that this was an
international story, so he was known as a cannibal captain everywhere.
But also while this was going on, Madam Tusson's made
a wax figure of him and put him in their
Chamber of Earths. He was actually vilified at the time.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
So do you think the question has been answered? Because
I mean, I can sit there and talk with my
wife all day about this and we're still going to go.
I don't know when it comes to survival and can
murder be justified when it comes to having just a
bite to eat?

Speaker 2 (10:00):
You know, this case is taught in many law school classes,
also many moral reasoning classes, and from what I see,
there really is a breakdown. Students take both sides and
often still very strongly. There's no easy answer. And a
professor at Harvard Laschool said to me. I asked him
why did they like this case so much at Harvard?
And what he said to me was he said, it's
an impossible dilemma. This is like Harvard like impossible dilemmas.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Wow, where can people go to find out more about you, Adam?
Because I want them to dive into your research and
your journey forward.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, I've got my own writer's page, so you can
just google me Adam Cohen writer, Adams Coen writer. Also
there's some on the Amazon page. There's a biography of
me there.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
I love it. Please come back to this show anytime
in the future. The door is always going to be
open for you, sir.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
I enjoyed it, Darrow very much.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Will you be brilliant? Okay, thank you
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