April 10, 2025 • 27 mins
In this enlightening episode of Author Nation Interviews, we explore the powerful theme of Authors as Leaders of Change ✍️✨. Join host Melody Ann and special guest Pamela Thompson as they discuss how authors can influence society through their narratives and personal experiences 🌍📚.
🔥 Want to publish and profit from your nonfiction book? Grab my FREE guide - The Publishing Decision: How to Choose the Best Path for Your Book! here: http://authornation.online/publishing
Key Takeaways:
🔥 Want to publish and profit from your nonfiction book? Grab my FREE guide - The Publishing Decision: How to Choose the Best Path for Your Book! here: http://authornation.online/publishing
Key Takeaways:
- Discover how authors can influence society by sharing their unique stories and perspectives 📖🌟.
- Learn the significance of personal transitions in crafting compelling narratives and connecting with readers 🔄🤝.
- Explore the concept of Real Lives Retold and how it can empower authors to address social issues through their writing 🗣️💪.
- Gain practical strategies for embracing your role as a leader of change in your writing journey 🚀✊.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to Author Nation Interviews. Today we're talking about leadership
writing and how as authors we can lead change through
our books. I'm Melody Anne, and I'm here to show
you how to write successfully and create a positive impact
in the world. You can visit authoration dot online at
(00:29):
any time to access a treasure trove of resources just
for you. So whether you're sleeping, your morning coffee or
winding down after a long day, settle in and let
me introduce our guest. Pamela Thompson is a leadership and
transition coach, consultant, author and visionary who has lived and
worked on five continents, including conflict zones. She helps leaders
(00:55):
navigate change without burnout and founded Female Wave of Change Canada,
a non profit advancing feminine leadership. Creator of the Art
of Change framework. She empowers mission driven women through life transitions.
Pamela is the best selling author of Learning to Dance
with Life I love that title and The Exploits of Nerva,
(01:19):
with her latest book, Truths and Contradictions, Life Changing Experiences
and Afagant Afghanistan coming out April eighth, two days ago,
so we're talking about her brand new book today. She
enjoys nature, travel, and inspiring audiences through workshops, podcast and
speaking engagements. Let's welcome Pamela. Hi, Pamela, Welcome to the show.
(01:44):
Thanks so much, Melaniane. I'm excited to be here. Yeah,
I'm thrilled your hair. Let's jump in. I'll see if
I can untie my tongue. It's a little time today.
I want to talk about your new book, Truth and Contradictions,
because we've actually met previously and talked about it and
I was really excited about it. Life changing experiences in Afghanistan.
Now this captures your personal journey. So what inspired you
(02:07):
to write about this chapter of in your life and
what do you hope this book is going to do
for the people who read out?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
What inspired me, Melody Anne was I guess what really
triggered me was when the Taliban took Afghanistan the second
time on August fifteenth, twenty twenty one, and over the
past three years, what's happened in terms of the erosion
of women's and girls' rights in the country, and it's
(02:37):
just like makes my heart break, you know, And so
that's initially what inspired me. And then I also called
to do interviews with Afghan men and women to really
hear their stories because when I was working there for
you know, thirteen months in twenty ten to eleven and
(03:00):
backstopping virtually and then more in twenty fifteen, I didn't
really get a chance to delve deep into their lives, right,
So I really felt inspired to interview my colleagues and
my folleagues and their friends. And the big thing is
that came to me. My why was really to shine
the light on the incredible courage and resilience of the
(03:21):
Afghan people, but also to smell miss there's a whole
bunch of myths about out there about Islam, Afghanistan and Afghans,
particularly Afghan men. So what do I hope readers to
take away. I really hope that they better understand Afghans
and Islam, and they understand what true Islam is and
(03:44):
what the Taliban aer doing isn't so to speak, and
that they really they have hope, and they have an
understanding of how they they themselves can support Afghan women
and girls if they choose to, and also can build
peace and understanding in their own communities, workplaces, and ultimately
I believe that repels out So, you know, and I
(04:07):
guess the theme that runs through is leadership lessons from
living and working in a conflict zone. But I did
not set out for that to be the case. However,
that really my wires is what I told you about
spelling this and shining the light incredible on the Afghan peoples.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, and I think to spelling this is really important
because what we see in our media is you know,
maybe what the government is doing or what the military
is doing, but it doesn't tell us about the day
to day lives of you know, ordinary citizens and what
they think and what they feel, and it could be
in complete contradiction to what we are seeing in our media.
(04:49):
So I think, do you find that in this book?
That's that's really what you're doing. You're saying, look, I
know you heard this and the media, this is what
it's really like.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's part of it. And it's also based on my
my interviews. Would you let me to share an example, Oh?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Absolutely, I'd love love.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
An example would be I actually state I have a
chapter in the book called Truths and Contradictions where I
actually state truths and contradictions, or say I state miss basically,
but I need it to the leader to dispel them.
And one one I don't I won't have the actual
words here, but one one basically says that Afghan women
(05:29):
are meant to be controlled by men and they don't
need to be educated. Something like that. Would you believe
that the prophet Mohammed's wife was a business woman? The
Quran does not say if the Kuran says men were equal.
(05:51):
It also says that education is extremely valuable and it
should be available to everyone. So that that's an example, right, yes, exactly,
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So just you know, and I think that's really important,
especially in today's world where our information seems to.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Be very selective.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Right, So thank you for that. You mentioned life transitions,
and I want to dig into that a little bit.
Just in my own life, I've had I call them chapters, right,
I've had many chapters in my life, and each new
chapter I see it as something to embrace and learn.
And so I'm wondering about, you know, your work with
(06:32):
life transitions and how you see authors using personal transitions
as a foundation for their own storytelling.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
That's a great question, And if I may, I'd like
to draw the difference in terms of a definition of
what a life change is and what a transition is
because I think it might be useful. So a life
change is typically something external and situational that we can
see like a separation, agreement, draw pink, slip right, Whereas
a transition is something internal and psychological. It's the internal
(07:05):
psychological work we do to reorient and readjust to our
new external environment. And what happens in life is a
lot of people do the life change and then they
don't do the internal work, and so they end up
repeating the same patterns in their lives often and remaining
unhappy and unfulfilled. Heinst people who get married three or
(07:28):
four times the honeyman period, same issues appear, and they
either stay and are not unhappy, or they move on
to the next one because they haven't taken time between
each relationship to decide who they are and they want.
So that's one example. So your question again was how
can we use personal transitions as a foundation for storytelling? Yes,
(07:51):
well I believe that and you know too, When we
write books, we transform ourselves. So those are transitions. And
I actually really like Christine Closers for stages or steps,
I guess you would say our four phase as she
talks about when you write as transformational authors, which many
(08:13):
of us are. I certainly am. You transform yourself, you
transform your business, you transform your your life, your business,
and ultimately the world. I think I've missed one in
there anyway, and an idea being that. Okay, so when
you write, it's a process, and so I guess, can
(08:37):
I use an example of my second book, because it's
two transition. So my second book, as you mentioned at
the outset, is called The Exploits and a Nerve are
reflections of a sixty something woman, right, And what I
chose to do because I've gone through lots of life
transitions and I have a five step model are to
change framework, And what I chose to do is interview
(08:57):
friends and friends of friends about their life trends and
create composite characters so no one would understand, you know.
And I also wanted to share my own, you know.
And these are like separation, divorced, burnout, losing the love
of your life, finding the love of your life. So anyway,
I decided, well, because I was going to do that
with the women and create compisent characters, I had to
(09:20):
create a character for myself, and so I chose to
write through a nerva so it is creative nonfiction, so
nobody ever knows. I found it very liberate to write
through Mi Nerva. And she's actually amused who came to
me about thirty years ago when I was riding out
a bike path in Ottawa and she came up and
I was too busy at that time. I had touched
(09:40):
her down. And then she came back about it four
years ago and said, okay, you have to write about
me now. So I was all said to write my memoir,
so I wrote through her anyway. In that book, it's
all about life transitions. And it also enabled me because
it's also about these six women who are Rudle Women's
Circle and supporting each other over a twenty year span
(10:01):
through a variety of life transitions. And because in our
women's circle we use we have experiential exercises that we
bring and we all do, I was able to integrate
my five step part of Change framework into the book
as well. So a way to integrate creative something that
you do in your business into your book.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, nice, I like that. And talking about a circle
of women. You're the founder of Female Wave of Change
Canada and through that you promote feminine leadership. And so
you know, I asked about the foundation you know, transitions,
the foundation of powerful storytelling. I want to ask a
(10:41):
very similar question around feminine leadership and nonfiction writing. Can
you share some thoughts around around those two and how
they might intersect.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yes, for sure. First of all, I'd like to give
a little background, if I may, to Female with Change.
It's a global social movement where now in over forty
countries around the world, and I was chosen and invited
to be ambassador for Canada of that movement in March
of twenty twenty. It took me a while and then
I said yes, And we believe feminine leadership holds the
(11:18):
key to creating a better world, a more conscious, equitable,
just sustainable and peaceful one. And when I speak about
and feminine leadership, I mean qualities and attributes like you mentioned, creativity, authenticity, collaboration, intuition, inclusiveness,
and these are typically associated with the feminine. That said,
(11:39):
men as well as women can have and learn these qualities.
So how do they translate into writing nonfiction books. It's
an excellent question. Well, here's the thing. One of the authenticity,
to just bring some of them out and give it examples.
(12:01):
I believe that our readers can tell if we're writing
from our hearts in an authentic space. So certainly that's
one way. That's an attribute that comes through when you
write nonfiction books. The other thing is creativity, like, how
do you bring creativity even though it's nonfiction? How do
you bring creative pieces into what you're doing? And for me,
(12:24):
when I'll actually go somewhere else with this, the other
thing is intuition. And a lot of times I am
you know, you know about panthers versus plotters, right, and
I'm a pans I'm one of the other people who
write from the seat of my pants rather than have
(12:46):
to have all the storylined, and it enables me to
use my creativity, but it also invites me, enables me
to use my intuition. So sometimes I was starting out
to write my current book, to some contradiction, I did
not plan to have a chapter at the end about
(13:07):
linking it to what can the international community can do?
What can you do? What can we all do? And
linking it to the broader social issues in the world.
But really that's kind of what happened, right, So that's
just an example of a few and of a few ways.
Is that No.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
That's that's excellent, and that also explains what you mean
by feminine leadership as well, so that you know, I
think for our audience that those putting those two together
will be will be clear for them.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I really appreciate that. And if you're like you when
you hear out there, go visit Pamela hyphen Thompson dot
com to learn more about Pamela and I bet there's
a link there as well to the nonprofit, but if not,
I will make sure there is one in the show
notes along with this link as well. Thank you, Pamela.
(13:58):
I want to like, I just want to like, Actually,
let's talk about your book. So your books all tend
to tackle kind of personal growth, leadership, self discovery, and
yet you know, what we often want from books like
that is, you know, actionable insights like something I want
to change my life. I want my own transformation. I
(14:20):
you know, I want to you know, I want you
to tell me what to do. But also storytelling is
really important. See can you talk a little bit about
your books and that balance between you know, information storytelling,
you know, telling people what to do or not telling
them what to do.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's a big question. It's a good way, sorry, wor
no worries. When I think about it, I'll just it
might be helpful to share a little bit about my
process at first. How do I balance the storytelling with
all these other bits? Well, one of the things is
my broader mission Melanie, and is to help build peace
(14:57):
and understanding in the world. So I screen every thing
I do through that. If you know what I'm saying
as well as you know what is my why for
writing the book? Who is my primary target audience and
what are their needs and wants? Yeah, and then how
can I creatively integrate my life experiences or others people
(15:19):
I interview into to meet those needs? Right? And the
other thing is FYI. I used to be an academic
at one point, and I love linking theory with practice.
And one of the reasons I loved academia was because
I was not I didn't like just staying in the theory.
I wanted to ground it is like, how do we
then link that and make a positive difference in people's lives?
(15:40):
So I have that natural interest in that. Plus I'm
qualitative researchers, so I love interviewing people. I used to
do focus groups and in depth interviews and roll them
up for organizations. Right, So I sort of integrate that
in and it's I find those are different ways that
I do it, and yeah, what else can I share there?
(16:03):
I guess I have been blogging for a number of years,
over ten years, and you know, when you blow my
blogs tend to be short, like five hundred and seven
hundred words. And I found when I switched to research
and writing program at Policy Doctors in all field, writing
reports on focus groups or in depth interviews, that it
made me really change my writing style and focus on
(16:26):
stuff that was interesting that why or others might be experiencing,
or something that was in the news, for example. But
then to link it to what can you do? You know,
not leave people hanging out there? Well that's very nice,
but then you know, then what can I do? So
I guess for a number of reasons, and because of
my background and experiences, I really enjoy linking theory with
(16:51):
practice and offering really practical strategies and insights in the
work that I do.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, and I think that can be the magic of Anne.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Can I sorry? Can? I don't mean to interrupt you?
Can I just share a little bit about learning to
dance with life and how I did that. Yes, absolutely,
because it's just it might be helpful to people. Yeah,
what happened is I had in December of twenty twelve.
I was just like exhausted, and I've been working for
this international nonprofit that promoted women's and children's rights around
(17:25):
the world, Melody In and I ended up being offered
to continue to sign a new contract and I asked
to sleep on the decision. And when I awoke, and
I felt just like a lemon that had been squeezed, dried,
squeezed and try, and I realized in my body that
(17:46):
I had to take a break. So I told them no,
like as a consultant, when you turned down work for
six months, And they said why, and I said, it's
because I want to create more balance in my life.
I had no idea what that meant. However, I started
twenty thirteen with nothing on my plate, and I took
about five months off, studied mindfulness, reconnected the family and friends.
(18:09):
Because I've been traveling a lot for the last few years,
a couple of years, and I went to this event,
a virtual event called the Transformational Author Experience that Christine
put on where she had you might have known it,
and she interviewed different types of literary agents and book publishers,
(18:31):
traditional and non traditional, and authors from different genres. And
at the end of it, I got off those and
I listened to about twenty of them in ten days.
I got off that call or that series of that
series of interviews, and it's like I just ended a
brain dump, and it was like these puzzle pieces of
my life came together, and I all of a sudden
(18:52):
got seven keys to what I call creative living, seven
keys to consciously cultivating improved health, happiness with filment and
piece in your life. And that really ended up I
started to develop when I was writing the book. Then
I started to write about those keys and flesh them out.
And when I was doing that, I was at the
(19:13):
same time moderating or facilitating a group coaching program called
Staying Healthy and Body Minded, Spirit All Living Your Passion.
So those actually questions and exercises are woven through the book.
And so it was it was, and then I ended
uping high achieving women so different ways to you know,
link practical strategies and balance out your creative stuff with
(19:37):
stuff that is reeling can some people in their daily lives.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, And earlier you said I don'tt to misquotes and
give you like a I'll summarize. You said something along
the lines of writing a book is a is a transformation,
is a transition, And so that sounds like what that
book was for you. It was this beautiful transition in
terms transition, but also an external change in what you
(20:04):
were doing and how you were serving people. So that's
I think that's really totally And just before we wrap up,
I just want to comment that earlier to my audience, earlier,
Pamela was talking about qualitative research versus quantitative research. So
you can you can do a questionnaire of ten thousand
(20:24):
people or you can deeply interview five. And I just
want to point out that if you were thinking about
writing a book, doing qualitative research with five people who
would be ideal readers for the book can bring you
so many insights. So I just because Pamela mentioned mentioned that,
I just wanted to throw that out there. And I know, Pamela,
(20:47):
you interviewed people for this latest book, so talking about
you know research, right, you did some in depth interviews
and it's so I just want people to know that
you can. You can just go out and talk to
someone and say you'd be a perfect reader for my book.
Can I can we sit down and do an in
depth interview? And there's so much information you can gather
from that you can write a much better book, even
(21:09):
you know, recording it and using people's language and you
know whatnot. So I just wanted to throw that out there.
Thank you, Pamela.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, that's a great tip as well for people.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Absolutely. So I want to talk about your guide. You
have a guide five leadership lessons for resilience and growth.
So can you just briefly and I know you have
in a sent shared some of those lessons, but can
you just briefly talk about how this could help authors?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Sure, well, I'll share a couple of them if I may. Yeah,
you want me to just share a couple of them, Yes,
that'd be beautiful thing. Okay. So one of them is
embrace our shared humanity. And one of the things I've
learned from living and working in any countries and cultures
is that we're really all the same. We want them
(21:57):
pretty well all the same. We want to belong, we
want to be loved, we want to be valued, We
want to be respected, and most of us care about family.
So imagine if we viewed everyone through that same lens,
irregardless of their skin color, their language, their ethnicity, their religion.
We would not have war, we would not have open conflict.
(22:19):
We might have some you know, disagreements, but and instead
of judging people, we would come from a place of
curiosity and say, isn't that interesting? I wonder why they
did that, rather than judging them and saying, why did
they do that? That's really silly or whatever like that. Right, So, yes,
embrace our shared humanity. And I think, you know, when
(22:41):
we're writing, if we had and met, most of us,
I think want to make a positive difference in the world.
So I think that's really helpful for authors. The other
one is prioritizing self care. You know, sometimes I'm very passionate.
I know you are too, And many of his authors
want to like rump it and get ourself out. And
(23:01):
you know, some people I know, you know, they'll do
things like say I want to work. I want to
write three hours a day, six days a week. I'm like,
oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
What a flog?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Right, no, no, no, no, I do my best work in
forty five minute intervals, and I don't need to I
don't need to write every day in terms of a
book that i'm writing on. My last book I wrote
in about six months, and before I went to a
writing workshop, I had your prologue and the introduction. I
knew the voice I was going to write through, right,
(23:32):
but other than that, I didn't have it. And so
everybody's different, right, But anyway, prioritizing self care, do I
have time to share one more?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes, you have time to share one more?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Hey, staying flexible and open to possibilities. I think if
you are more of a plotter and you have your outline,
your I think your tendency might not be to stay
flexible right because you've got it all sorted right. But
what I find is it's really wonderful when you're going along.
(24:08):
And I mean after a certain point I do have
have a chapter outlined, like I don't just write the
whole thing about it, because otherwise you can't remember what's what.
But so I have to. You know, I'm learning with
each book how long I can actually not have a
chapter outline, right, but staying open and flexible. It's like
then when new ideas come in, you can say, how
(24:29):
do I fit that in? Would that really work here?
Does that really serve my overall mission? And the people
who want to you know, do I need to interview
any more people? Like in my book? It's like how
many people do I need to interview? Like maybe eleven
or twelve is enough. I don't need to interview twenty five. Yeah,
just going with your gut and sitting with it, and
(24:50):
so like I have, I do a morning practice. There's
a bunch of things I do. I meditate every day,
I do yoga regularly. But I think all these practices
that help us get out of our heads and into
our bodies authors help us then learn to listen to
a trust in their body's wisdom and thereby then stay
open and flexible. Yeah exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Thank you. And I want to say that, you know,
talking about outlines, we don't call it a table of
contents because the table of contents is what you have
when you're finished, and it's set. But an outline the
best way to describe an outline as a working outline.
It's a it's a set of guide posts. Yet you're
allowed to go off. You know, you think hiking right.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
You.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
You know, there's this main trail in your hiking along,
but then there are all these other little trails, and
it's okay to go down these other little trails and
explore because you won't get lost, because you'll come back
to that main that main hiking trail. That's how I
think of a working outline is something that allows you
to explore without getting lost and writing one hundred thousand
(25:49):
words you don't need. Thank you, Pamela. And where can
we find five leadership lessons for resilience and growth?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Okay, it's on my website at Pamela hyphen Thompson dot
com for Slash Leadership hyphen lessons or an easy way
lesson dot com and or lessons. And an easy way
to find it is just go to Pamela hyphen Thompson
dot com ford Slash books because there's actually a link
on the books page.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Okay, perfect, I'll put that link in the show notes
as well. Pamela, thank you so much for joining me today.
It's been lovely chatting with you. I'm really excited about
your book.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And just by the way, it's April the eighth that
is coming out.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yes, it comes out April April eighth. That was two
days ago. So yes, it's already out there and you
can go go find it and grab it today. It's ready,
all right. Thank you much, thank you, thank you for
joining us today on Author Nation Interviews. We hope this
conversation has provided you with some really valuable insights but
also some inspiration for for you for your nonfiction writing journey.
(27:02):
And remember to go visit authonation dot online for a
wealth of resources designed to support your growth as a
successful nonfiction author.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And of course I.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Always appreciate your feedback and your support. Thank you for listening,
and if you've enjoyed this episode, consider leaving a comment
or a review. And I know you know somebody who
needs to hear this, so share it with them, because
your participation helps us continue delivering insights and tools you
need to succeed. So keep writing, keep creating, and continue
(27:33):
to share your unique stories with the world.
Welcome to Author Nation Interviews. Today we're talking about leadership
writing and how as authors we can lead change through
our books. I'm Melody Anne, and I'm here to show
you how to write successfully and create a positive impact
in the world. You can visit authoration dot online at
(00:29):
any time to access a treasure trove of resources just
for you. So whether you're sleeping, your morning coffee or
winding down after a long day, settle in and let
me introduce our guest. Pamela Thompson is a leadership and
transition coach, consultant, author and visionary who has lived and
worked on five continents, including conflict zones. She helps leaders
(00:55):
navigate change without burnout and founded Female Wave of Change Canada,
a non profit advancing feminine leadership. Creator of the Art
of Change framework. She empowers mission driven women through life transitions.
Pamela is the best selling author of Learning to Dance
with Life I love that title and The Exploits of Nerva,
(01:19):
with her latest book, Truths and Contradictions, Life Changing Experiences
and Afagant Afghanistan coming out April eighth, two days ago,
so we're talking about her brand new book today. She
enjoys nature, travel, and inspiring audiences through workshops, podcast and
speaking engagements. Let's welcome Pamela. Hi, Pamela, Welcome to the show.
(01:44):
Thanks so much, Melaniane. I'm excited to be here. Yeah,
I'm thrilled your hair. Let's jump in. I'll see if
I can untie my tongue. It's a little time today.
I want to talk about your new book, Truth and Contradictions,
because we've actually met previously and talked about it and
I was really excited about it. Life changing experiences in Afghanistan.
Now this captures your personal journey. So what inspired you
(02:07):
to write about this chapter of in your life and
what do you hope this book is going to do
for the people who read out?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
What inspired me, Melody Anne was I guess what really
triggered me was when the Taliban took Afghanistan the second
time on August fifteenth, twenty twenty one, and over the
past three years, what's happened in terms of the erosion
of women's and girls' rights in the country, and it's
(02:37):
just like makes my heart break, you know, And so
that's initially what inspired me. And then I also called
to do interviews with Afghan men and women to really
hear their stories because when I was working there for
you know, thirteen months in twenty ten to eleven and
(03:00):
backstopping virtually and then more in twenty fifteen, I didn't
really get a chance to delve deep into their lives, right,
So I really felt inspired to interview my colleagues and
my folleagues and their friends. And the big thing is
that came to me. My why was really to shine
the light on the incredible courage and resilience of the
(03:21):
Afghan people, but also to smell miss there's a whole
bunch of myths about out there about Islam, Afghanistan and Afghans,
particularly Afghan men. So what do I hope readers to
take away. I really hope that they better understand Afghans
and Islam, and they understand what true Islam is and
(03:44):
what the Taliban aer doing isn't so to speak, and
that they really they have hope, and they have an
understanding of how they they themselves can support Afghan women
and girls if they choose to, and also can build
peace and understanding in their own communities, workplaces, and ultimately
I believe that repels out So, you know, and I
(04:07):
guess the theme that runs through is leadership lessons from
living and working in a conflict zone. But I did
not set out for that to be the case. However,
that really my wires is what I told you about
spelling this and shining the light incredible on the Afghan peoples.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, and I think to spelling this is really important
because what we see in our media is you know,
maybe what the government is doing or what the military
is doing, but it doesn't tell us about the day
to day lives of you know, ordinary citizens and what
they think and what they feel, and it could be
in complete contradiction to what we are seeing in our media.
(04:49):
So I think, do you find that in this book?
That's that's really what you're doing. You're saying, look, I
know you heard this and the media, this is what
it's really like.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's part of it. And it's also based on my
my interviews. Would you let me to share an example, Oh?
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Absolutely, I'd love love.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
An example would be I actually state I have a
chapter in the book called Truths and Contradictions where I
actually state truths and contradictions, or say I state miss basically,
but I need it to the leader to dispel them.
And one one I don't I won't have the actual
words here, but one one basically says that Afghan women
(05:29):
are meant to be controlled by men and they don't
need to be educated. Something like that. Would you believe
that the prophet Mohammed's wife was a business woman? The
Quran does not say if the Kuran says men were equal.
(05:51):
It also says that education is extremely valuable and it
should be available to everyone. So that that's an example, right, yes, exactly,
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So just you know, and I think that's really important,
especially in today's world where our information seems to.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Be very selective.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Right, So thank you for that. You mentioned life transitions,
and I want to dig into that a little bit.
Just in my own life, I've had I call them chapters, right,
I've had many chapters in my life, and each new
chapter I see it as something to embrace and learn.
And so I'm wondering about, you know, your work with
(06:32):
life transitions and how you see authors using personal transitions
as a foundation for their own storytelling.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
That's a great question, And if I may, I'd like
to draw the difference in terms of a definition of
what a life change is and what a transition is
because I think it might be useful. So a life
change is typically something external and situational that we can
see like a separation, agreement, draw pink, slip right, Whereas
a transition is something internal and psychological. It's the internal
(07:05):
psychological work we do to reorient and readjust to our
new external environment. And what happens in life is a
lot of people do the life change and then they
don't do the internal work, and so they end up
repeating the same patterns in their lives often and remaining
unhappy and unfulfilled. Heinst people who get married three or
(07:28):
four times the honeyman period, same issues appear, and they
either stay and are not unhappy, or they move on
to the next one because they haven't taken time between
each relationship to decide who they are and they want.
So that's one example. So your question again was how
can we use personal transitions as a foundation for storytelling? Yes,
(07:51):
well I believe that and you know too, When we
write books, we transform ourselves. So those are transitions. And
I actually really like Christine Closers for stages or steps,
I guess you would say our four phase as she
talks about when you write as transformational authors, which many
(08:13):
of us are. I certainly am. You transform yourself, you
transform your business, you transform your your life, your business,
and ultimately the world. I think I've missed one in
there anyway, and an idea being that. Okay, so when
you write, it's a process, and so I guess, can
(08:37):
I use an example of my second book, because it's
two transition. So my second book, as you mentioned at
the outset, is called The Exploits and a Nerve are
reflections of a sixty something woman, right, And what I
chose to do because I've gone through lots of life
transitions and I have a five step model are to
change framework, And what I chose to do is interview
(08:57):
friends and friends of friends about their life trends and
create composite characters so no one would understand, you know.
And I also wanted to share my own, you know.
And these are like separation, divorced, burnout, losing the love
of your life, finding the love of your life. So anyway,
I decided, well, because I was going to do that
with the women and create compisent characters, I had to
(09:20):
create a character for myself, and so I chose to
write through a nerva so it is creative nonfiction, so
nobody ever knows. I found it very liberate to write
through Mi Nerva. And she's actually amused who came to
me about thirty years ago when I was riding out
a bike path in Ottawa and she came up and
I was too busy at that time. I had touched
(09:40):
her down. And then she came back about it four
years ago and said, okay, you have to write about
me now. So I was all said to write my memoir,
so I wrote through her anyway. In that book, it's
all about life transitions. And it also enabled me because
it's also about these six women who are Rudle Women's
Circle and supporting each other over a twenty year span
(10:01):
through a variety of life transitions. And because in our
women's circle we use we have experiential exercises that we
bring and we all do, I was able to integrate
my five step part of Change framework into the book
as well. So a way to integrate creative something that
you do in your business into your book.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, nice, I like that. And talking about a circle
of women. You're the founder of Female Wave of Change
Canada and through that you promote feminine leadership. And so
you know, I asked about the foundation you know, transitions,
the foundation of powerful storytelling. I want to ask a
(10:41):
very similar question around feminine leadership and nonfiction writing. Can
you share some thoughts around around those two and how
they might intersect.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yes, for sure. First of all, I'd like to give
a little background, if I may, to Female with Change.
It's a global social movement where now in over forty
countries around the world, and I was chosen and invited
to be ambassador for Canada of that movement in March
of twenty twenty. It took me a while and then
I said yes, And we believe feminine leadership holds the
(11:18):
key to creating a better world, a more conscious, equitable,
just sustainable and peaceful one. And when I speak about
and feminine leadership, I mean qualities and attributes like you mentioned, creativity, authenticity, collaboration, intuition, inclusiveness,
and these are typically associated with the feminine. That said,
(11:39):
men as well as women can have and learn these qualities.
So how do they translate into writing nonfiction books. It's
an excellent question. Well, here's the thing. One of the authenticity,
to just bring some of them out and give it examples.
(12:01):
I believe that our readers can tell if we're writing
from our hearts in an authentic space. So certainly that's
one way. That's an attribute that comes through when you
write nonfiction books. The other thing is creativity, like, how
do you bring creativity even though it's nonfiction? How do
you bring creative pieces into what you're doing? And for me,
(12:24):
when I'll actually go somewhere else with this, the other
thing is intuition. And a lot of times I am
you know, you know about panthers versus plotters, right, and
I'm a pans I'm one of the other people who
write from the seat of my pants rather than have
(12:46):
to have all the storylined, and it enables me to
use my creativity, but it also invites me, enables me
to use my intuition. So sometimes I was starting out
to write my current book, to some contradiction, I did
not plan to have a chapter at the end about
(13:07):
linking it to what can the international community can do?
What can you do? What can we all do? And
linking it to the broader social issues in the world.
But really that's kind of what happened, right, So that's
just an example of a few and of a few ways.
Is that No.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
That's that's excellent, and that also explains what you mean
by feminine leadership as well, so that you know, I
think for our audience that those putting those two together
will be will be clear for them.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I really appreciate that. And if you're like you when
you hear out there, go visit Pamela hyphen Thompson dot
com to learn more about Pamela and I bet there's
a link there as well to the nonprofit, but if not,
I will make sure there is one in the show
notes along with this link as well. Thank you, Pamela.
(13:58):
I want to like, I just want to like, Actually,
let's talk about your book. So your books all tend
to tackle kind of personal growth, leadership, self discovery, and
yet you know, what we often want from books like
that is, you know, actionable insights like something I want
to change my life. I want my own transformation. I
(14:20):
you know, I want to you know, I want you
to tell me what to do. But also storytelling is
really important. See can you talk a little bit about
your books and that balance between you know, information storytelling,
you know, telling people what to do or not telling
them what to do.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's a big question. It's a good way, sorry, wor
no worries. When I think about it, I'll just it
might be helpful to share a little bit about my
process at first. How do I balance the storytelling with
all these other bits? Well, one of the things is
my broader mission Melanie, and is to help build peace
(14:57):
and understanding in the world. So I screen every thing
I do through that. If you know what I'm saying
as well as you know what is my why for
writing the book? Who is my primary target audience and
what are their needs and wants? Yeah, and then how
can I creatively integrate my life experiences or others people
(15:19):
I interview into to meet those needs? Right? And the
other thing is FYI. I used to be an academic
at one point, and I love linking theory with practice.
And one of the reasons I loved academia was because
I was not I didn't like just staying in the theory.
I wanted to ground it is like, how do we
then link that and make a positive difference in people's lives?
(15:40):
So I have that natural interest in that. Plus I'm
qualitative researchers, so I love interviewing people. I used to
do focus groups and in depth interviews and roll them
up for organizations. Right, So I sort of integrate that
in and it's I find those are different ways that
I do it, and yeah, what else can I share there?
(16:03):
I guess I have been blogging for a number of years,
over ten years, and you know, when you blow my
blogs tend to be short, like five hundred and seven
hundred words. And I found when I switched to research
and writing program at Policy Doctors in all field, writing
reports on focus groups or in depth interviews, that it
made me really change my writing style and focus on
(16:26):
stuff that was interesting that why or others might be experiencing,
or something that was in the news, for example. But
then to link it to what can you do? You know,
not leave people hanging out there? Well that's very nice,
but then you know, then what can I do? So
I guess for a number of reasons, and because of
my background and experiences, I really enjoy linking theory with
(16:51):
practice and offering really practical strategies and insights in the
work that I do.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, and I think that can be the magic of Anne.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Can I sorry? Can? I don't mean to interrupt you?
Can I just share a little bit about learning to
dance with life and how I did that. Yes, absolutely,
because it's just it might be helpful to people. Yeah,
what happened is I had in December of twenty twelve.
I was just like exhausted, and I've been working for
this international nonprofit that promoted women's and children's rights around
(17:25):
the world, Melody In and I ended up being offered
to continue to sign a new contract and I asked
to sleep on the decision. And when I awoke, and
I felt just like a lemon that had been squeezed, dried,
squeezed and try, and I realized in my body that
(17:46):
I had to take a break. So I told them no,
like as a consultant, when you turned down work for
six months, And they said why, and I said, it's
because I want to create more balance in my life.
I had no idea what that meant. However, I started
twenty thirteen with nothing on my plate, and I took
about five months off, studied mindfulness, reconnected the family and friends.
(18:09):
Because I've been traveling a lot for the last few years,
a couple of years, and I went to this event,
a virtual event called the Transformational Author Experience that Christine
put on where she had you might have known it,
and she interviewed different types of literary agents and book publishers,
(18:31):
traditional and non traditional, and authors from different genres. And
at the end of it, I got off those and
I listened to about twenty of them in ten days.
I got off that call or that series of that
series of interviews, and it's like I just ended a
brain dump, and it was like these puzzle pieces of
my life came together, and I all of a sudden
(18:52):
got seven keys to what I call creative living, seven
keys to consciously cultivating improved health, happiness with filment and
piece in your life. And that really ended up I
started to develop when I was writing the book. Then
I started to write about those keys and flesh them out.
And when I was doing that, I was at the
(19:13):
same time moderating or facilitating a group coaching program called
Staying Healthy and Body Minded, Spirit All Living Your Passion.
So those actually questions and exercises are woven through the book.
And so it was it was, and then I ended
uping high achieving women so different ways to you know,
link practical strategies and balance out your creative stuff with
(19:37):
stuff that is reeling can some people in their daily lives.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, And earlier you said I don'tt to misquotes and
give you like a I'll summarize. You said something along
the lines of writing a book is a is a transformation,
is a transition, And so that sounds like what that
book was for you. It was this beautiful transition in
terms transition, but also an external change in what you
(20:04):
were doing and how you were serving people. So that's
I think that's really totally And just before we wrap up,
I just want to comment that earlier to my audience, earlier,
Pamela was talking about qualitative research versus quantitative research. So
you can you can do a questionnaire of ten thousand
(20:24):
people or you can deeply interview five. And I just
want to point out that if you were thinking about
writing a book, doing qualitative research with five people who
would be ideal readers for the book can bring you
so many insights. So I just because Pamela mentioned mentioned that,
I just wanted to throw that out there. And I know, Pamela,
(20:47):
you interviewed people for this latest book, so talking about
you know research, right, you did some in depth interviews
and it's so I just want people to know that
you can. You can just go out and talk to
someone and say you'd be a perfect reader for my book.
Can I can we sit down and do an in
depth interview? And there's so much information you can gather
from that you can write a much better book, even
(21:09):
you know, recording it and using people's language and you
know whatnot. So I just wanted to throw that out there.
Thank you, Pamela.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Well, that's a great tip as well for people.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Absolutely. So I want to talk about your guide. You
have a guide five leadership lessons for resilience and growth.
So can you just briefly and I know you have
in a sent shared some of those lessons, but can
you just briefly talk about how this could help authors?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Sure, well, I'll share a couple of them if I may. Yeah,
you want me to just share a couple of them, Yes,
that'd be beautiful thing. Okay. So one of them is
embrace our shared humanity. And one of the things I've
learned from living and working in any countries and cultures
is that we're really all the same. We want them
(21:57):
pretty well all the same. We want to belong, we
want to be loved, we want to be valued, We
want to be respected, and most of us care about family.
So imagine if we viewed everyone through that same lens,
irregardless of their skin color, their language, their ethnicity, their religion.
We would not have war, we would not have open conflict.
(22:19):
We might have some you know, disagreements, but and instead
of judging people, we would come from a place of
curiosity and say, isn't that interesting? I wonder why they
did that, rather than judging them and saying, why did
they do that? That's really silly or whatever like that. Right, So, yes,
embrace our shared humanity. And I think, you know, when
(22:41):
we're writing, if we had and met, most of us,
I think want to make a positive difference in the world.
So I think that's really helpful for authors. The other
one is prioritizing self care. You know, sometimes I'm very passionate.
I know you are too, And many of his authors
want to like rump it and get ourself out. And
(23:01):
you know, some people I know, you know, they'll do
things like say I want to work. I want to
write three hours a day, six days a week. I'm like,
oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
What a flog?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Right, no, no, no, no, I do my best work in
forty five minute intervals, and I don't need to I
don't need to write every day in terms of a
book that i'm writing on. My last book I wrote
in about six months, and before I went to a
writing workshop, I had your prologue and the introduction. I
knew the voice I was going to write through, right,
(23:32):
but other than that, I didn't have it. And so
everybody's different, right, But anyway, prioritizing self care, do I
have time to share one more?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes, you have time to share one more?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Hey, staying flexible and open to possibilities. I think if
you are more of a plotter and you have your outline,
your I think your tendency might not be to stay
flexible right because you've got it all sorted right. But
what I find is it's really wonderful when you're going along.
(24:08):
And I mean after a certain point I do have
have a chapter outlined, like I don't just write the
whole thing about it, because otherwise you can't remember what's what.
But so I have to. You know, I'm learning with
each book how long I can actually not have a
chapter outline, right, but staying open and flexible. It's like
then when new ideas come in, you can say, how
(24:29):
do I fit that in? Would that really work here?
Does that really serve my overall mission? And the people
who want to you know, do I need to interview
any more people? Like in my book? It's like how
many people do I need to interview? Like maybe eleven
or twelve is enough. I don't need to interview twenty five. Yeah,
just going with your gut and sitting with it, and
(24:50):
so like I have, I do a morning practice. There's
a bunch of things I do. I meditate every day,
I do yoga regularly. But I think all these practices
that help us get out of our heads and into
our bodies authors help us then learn to listen to
a trust in their body's wisdom and thereby then stay
open and flexible. Yeah exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Thank you. And I want to say that, you know,
talking about outlines, we don't call it a table of
contents because the table of contents is what you have
when you're finished, and it's set. But an outline the
best way to describe an outline as a working outline.
It's a it's a set of guide posts. Yet you're
allowed to go off. You know, you think hiking right.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
You.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
You know, there's this main trail in your hiking along,
but then there are all these other little trails, and
it's okay to go down these other little trails and
explore because you won't get lost, because you'll come back
to that main that main hiking trail. That's how I
think of a working outline is something that allows you
to explore without getting lost and writing one hundred thousand
(25:49):
words you don't need. Thank you, Pamela. And where can
we find five leadership lessons for resilience and growth?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Okay, it's on my website at Pamela hyphen Thompson dot
com for Slash Leadership hyphen lessons or an easy way
lesson dot com and or lessons. And an easy way
to find it is just go to Pamela hyphen Thompson
dot com ford Slash books because there's actually a link
on the books page.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Okay, perfect, I'll put that link in the show notes
as well. Pamela, thank you so much for joining me today.
It's been lovely chatting with you. I'm really excited about
your book.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
And just by the way, it's April the eighth that
is coming out.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yes, it comes out April April eighth. That was two
days ago. So yes, it's already out there and you
can go go find it and grab it today. It's ready,
all right. Thank you much, thank you, thank you for
joining us today on Author Nation Interviews. We hope this
conversation has provided you with some really valuable insights but
also some inspiration for for you for your nonfiction writing journey.
(27:02):
And remember to go visit authonation dot online for a
wealth of resources designed to support your growth as a
successful nonfiction author.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And of course I.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Always appreciate your feedback and your support. Thank you for listening,
and if you've enjoyed this episode, consider leaving a comment
or a review. And I know you know somebody who
needs to hear this, so share it with them, because
your participation helps us continue delivering insights and tools you
need to succeed. So keep writing, keep creating, and continue
(27:33):
to share your unique stories with the world.
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