April 17, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode of Author Nation Interviews, host Melody Ann sits down with certified ADHD coach Nikki Kinzer and professional podcaster Pete Wright to explore effective Team-based Authoring Strategies.
In this episode, I share about how Teamwork can benefit nonfiction authors. If you want my FREE Guide: From Overwhelmed to Writing, get it here.
Discover how to navigate creative chaos and maintain productivity through collaboration and innovative writing techniques. ✍️✨
Join us as we dive into practical tips for Keeping Your Focus While Writing and enhancing your Collaborative Writing Process for Authors. Whether you're an experienced writer or just starting out, this conversation is packed with valuable insights to help you thrive in your writing journey! 🚀📚
Key Takeaways:
In this episode, I share about how Teamwork can benefit nonfiction authors. If you want my FREE Guide: From Overwhelmed to Writing, get it here.
Discover how to navigate creative chaos and maintain productivity through collaboration and innovative writing techniques. ✍️✨
Join us as we dive into practical tips for Keeping Your Focus While Writing and enhancing your Collaborative Writing Process for Authors. Whether you're an experienced writer or just starting out, this conversation is packed with valuable insights to help you thrive in your writing journey! 🚀📚
Key Takeaways:
- 🌟 Learn how to create your ideal writing environment to boost focus and creativity.
- 🎯 Discover the importance of setting small, achievable writing goals for consistent progress.
- 🤝 Understand the benefits of accountability partnerships in maintaining motivation and momentum.
- 🎨 Explore techniques to embrace creative chaos and improve your collaborative writing experience.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to Author Nation Interviews. Today we're talking
about how to write a book when your brain doesn't
want to follow the rules that society has set out
for it, especially if you're a navigating creative chaos, the
myth of Perfection or ADHD. I'm your host, Melody and
here to share practical insights and strategies to help you
thrive as an author and make a meaningful impact with
(00:35):
your work. Remember to visit authornation dot online to explore
a wealth of resources created just for you. So whether
you're starting your day or unwinding in the evening, get comfortable.
It's time to meet our guests. Since twenty ten, certified
ADHD coach Nicki Kinzer and a professional podcaster and co
(00:56):
founder of the True Story FFA podcast network. I need
to know more about that. Actually, Pete Wright have been
the co hosts of the award winning podcast Taking Control
the ADHD Podcast, speaking to adults with ADHD all over
the globe. Over thirty seasons and more than six hundred episodes.
(01:18):
Nicki and Pete continue to offer support and strategies for
adults living with ADHD and now you can guess it,
they've decided to write their own book. That's why they're here.
I'm apologetically ADHD, a step by step framework for everyday
planning on your terms. All right, Hello, Pete, Nikki, how
(01:38):
are you guys today?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So good and so grateful to be here?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yes, thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Absolutely, I am absolutely thrilled that you were here. I
really want to just start with a little bit of
your origin story. Let's say, so, how did ADHD podcast
come alive?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
That's that's a great question.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
It actually started with a conversation that Pete and I had.
So Pete has been a part of my business since
day one, and I actually started as a professional organizer,
so the company used to be called Take Control Organizing,
and I was invited to do a weekly radio show,
(02:23):
local radio show on organizing. And because Pete's been with
me since day one, he's also sort of my go
to person of what do you think about this? Would
you know, does this sound like a good idea?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
And he said, no, it doesn't. It doesn't sound like
a good idea.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
And I think, you know, I don't think you should
do a weekly local radio show. I think you should
have a podcast, like let's do a podcast. And this
was back in twenty ten, where I had no idea
what a podcast was.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
They were not very popular.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
He did, thankfully, he knew what it was and he
knew what he was doing. I honestly thought it was
something that was just going to go on the website
like a blog. I thought you would have to go
to the website to listen to it. I didn't realize
that all you had to do was go into iTunes
and go to podcasts and we would be there. If
I had known that, I don't know if I would
(03:16):
have done it, So I'm kind of glad that I didn't.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
No.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
So for a couple of years we did the organizing podcast,
and then at that point I had decided to switch
my focus to ADHDS because most of my clients did
have ADHD and it was a real interest of mine.
I really enjoyed doing the work, and so we switched
everything and went to the organizing podcast to taking control
(03:42):
of the ADHD podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, and then from there that's all she wrote, Yeah, yeah,
and from there to the book Pete right.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, yeah, I mean it was a long road between
there and the book, and you know, the show is
kind of evolved over the years, but we ended up
getting a call into the TCA, you know, Global HQ
from a publisher who said, you know what we I have, ADHD,
(04:11):
and I listened to your show and I love it
and have you ever thought about writing a book? And
so it was they came to us and said, we'd
like to turn this sort of library that you've created
over the last fifteen years into something you know on
page what do you think?
Speaker 5 (04:28):
And it took a bit of thinking.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And I'll just say in all candor, we had written
a book which we had self published back in the day.
It was an organizing book and it was hard.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
It was so hard.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It was so hard, and you know, I think a
lot of things change over the years, the fact that
that our relationship has changed as we've been working together
for so long, and and so you know, if the eventuality,
you know that we said yes to a second book
came with a lot more tools, I think in working
together and and figuring out how to how to write
(05:06):
you know, our our our most important kind of message.
And so we did and now we have this, this
book and apologetically Adhd, and it's it's I hope helping
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I love this title I have I have clients who
are who who work write with ADHD and so I'm
excited for them to have this tool. So that's really exciting.
Now I'm going to say that I think there are
two things that can happen. One, if you try to
write a book the first time, whether you're successful or
it's the beautiful book that you've always wanted or not,
(05:42):
that gives you a lot of experience for your next try.
And secondly that today's the tools we have today to
write a book can really simplify the process in many ways.
And so I'm glad that that first book didn't turn
you off and that and that you took the plant
in you and you decided to write a second book.
(06:03):
So let's talk about your writing process. I know you've
called your writing process creatively chaotic, So can you talk
a little bit about what that means? And then I'd
love to hear from Nikki about her writing process and
see like how did they work together or didn't they
or you know, how did we work together?
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, we don't need them to work together. That would
be sthodistically chaotic, I.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Think is what we would call it.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
No, I you know this, my.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Writing process is typically just just churn out as much
as I can and in short, short sprints. And that
has been a lesson hard one over the years. We'll
talk about that in a little bit, I imagine, so
I find at least, you know, for the process of
the book. You know, I would absolutely just try to
change context, try to leave the day job office, go
(06:53):
someplace else, set up my computer and an environment that
is different and stimulating. I always need some i'm you know,
in order to silence all of the different sort of
distracting voices I have in my head. I have to
have some background noise going on and and and then
you know, get to work and write in short, very
(07:14):
very short sprints. And you know, I mean the old
saw always always end mid sentence, right, always end knowing
the next thing I'm going to write, and so that
I always come back not feeling completely lost. And the
way this book came together, the structure of the book is,
you know, it's very much like our podcast. I imagine.
(07:36):
There may not be a lot of people listening to
your show who have already crossed over to the ADHD podcast.
I invite you to come listen to us. If you
live with AC we'd love you to find a second home.
But the you know, the the book attempts to capture
our voice as much as possible. So Nicky is writing
the coaching stuff and the real meat and substance and
(07:56):
and sort of tutelage comes from Nicky's experience as a
coach without ADHD. And my stuff is, look, I live
with ADHD, And here's how it feels like all the
stuff Nicky's writing about, Here's how it feels to live that.
And here are some of the things I do for
myself to to help accommodate that as such, Like we
had a lot of flexibility to do sort of a
(08:18):
call and response to each other as we're writing the book,
and that I think that made it really fun.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah. I like how you talk about just getting words
on paper, not thinking it through, but just allowing things
to get out rather than trying to be perfect, which
and we can talk about that later if you want.
I also love that you finish mid sentence. I often
say that to my author's Look, if you have trouble
starting again, finishment sentence, finishment thought, finishment paragraph, because then
(08:47):
when you come back and you read it back, it'll help, right,
So thank you for that. Pete Nicky what about you.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yes, some some similarities for sure, and a little bit
different because he he was his part of the book
is definitely more like an essay. He's a storyteller, and
I'm much more this is how to do this or
these are some ways to do this. It's it's a
very nonfiction part. Not that his is fiction, because it's not.
(09:14):
It's all him, it's real, it's him, but it was
a different kind of writing than what he's doing right.
So for me, what was really important was I that
I wrote about something I knew a lot about and
that I was very comfortable with. I had a lot
of experience with and so when we picked the planning
(09:37):
and systems and how to plan your week, how to
plan your day, that is something that I work with
my clients every day.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I have a membership that's based around that.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
So I was pulling off of a lot of experience,
which was really helpful. I've done a lot of presentations
around planning and time management. So what I the very
first that I started doing was looking at these old
blog posts, these old podcast scripts that we've done in
(10:07):
the past around planning, the presentations that I've done and
started to like really gather the information into one spot
and start putting it together. So it was almost like
a puzzle for me was you know, what is the
first step, what's the second step, and so trying to
figure out what all.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
That looked like.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Like Pete, I found very quickly that I needed to
leave the house. I could not write in my office
where I do my regular work. I was interrupted way
too much with my family, interrupted by work stuff that
would draw me in and it just was not a
good environment.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So I would leave the house.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
I would go There was a couple of different coffee
shops that I enjoyed going to. Like Pete, I had
to have noise, but I couldn't listen to the people
around me because I'd be listening to their conversations because
that's more fun than writing, right.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
So we're did we mention that, like I want to
know what's going on?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So I actually found a couple of playlists on classical
music and music to study, you know, to study to work,
And that was that was not anything I ever expected.
I did not realize that that would be so helpful
for me, but it certainly was. I would get that
music on, I would start listening to that piano and
(11:30):
if it started like raising its intensity and like I
felt my intensity getting really rubbed up and like excited
about what I was writing about.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
And that made a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah. I love that you recognize that you needed to
get out of the house and that you found the
right the right noise, right, some of us need noise,
some of us need silence. You needed noise, but you
found the right noise for that. And I also have
to say that, you know, Neil Gaiman was it is
saying that he goes to a coffee shop to write,
and he considers writing the actual act of writing, daydreaming
(12:07):
about what he might write, or listening in to other
people's conversations to get good dialogue ideas. So just suggesting,
just letting you know, Nikki, not so bad.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
If you're not such a bad idea.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, bad idea? Yes, all right? Add and deadlines can
be a messy combo. I mean I struggle with deadlines.
I think we all struggle with deadlines. But there's this
extra layer, right, So how did you use external accountability
to keep your yourselves moving along with this book?
Speaker 4 (12:42):
I couldn't have written the book without it? Fair enough,
that's my I mean, and I don't have ADHD.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I'll be fair, but like I don't.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
But it was critical for me to have these deadlines.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah yeah, And so how did they help?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Well, well, yeah, I mean, I I deadlines are critical.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
I felt like that too.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I had external sort of reminders my task management system,
my work management system. They were constantly pinging me reminding me.
One of the muscles I've been really developing is breaking
down requirements in my task management system to a very
small level, like just just complete this tiny section today,
or the intro to this particular essay, get it done today.
(13:27):
The smaller sort of atomic element of a particular project
that I made it the easier it was, to just
move the ball down the field just a little bit
at a time. The other thing that helped me, though,
and this is I'd be lying if I said it
was just all roses. I didn't have any trouble with
deadlines on this book, but in my life a lot.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Of other things slipped.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Right.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
There's a cost to everything.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I was laid on all kinds of things because I
was sitting at the coffee shop writing this book. And
that's that's just the reality of doing the project for
me is that I did have some you know, ADHD
related balls that fell to the floor, so it happened.
The other thing that was great about this one, which
is not necessarily actionable for everybody, but I was in
(14:17):
the middle of Nano Raimo when Nicki started writing the book,
and so this was now over a year ago, right
in twenty twenty three, and so Nicki was already well
on the road to getting the book written when I
had to jump in. And as someone, you know, I
think everybody kind of recognizes this, but maybe with ADHD
(14:39):
you might live this more, have a better grasp of this.
The adrenal deadline is legitimate. Like coming in and already
feeling like you're behind starts that a drenal system going,
and that helps motivate you toward a goal much more quickly.
It's not a healthy way to live, it's not a
healthy way to writ right, but it is sometimes the
(15:02):
tool that's that's required, and that definitely came in for me.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, No, that makes perfect sense. And I like how
you talked about, you know, having enough of an outline
that you can say, Okay, I'm just tackling this segment today.
Rather than sitting down and saying, well, I'm writing a book,
which is just it's so it's it's huge and abstract
and we just can't sit down and write a book.
So yeah, I'm glad that you said that. I have
(15:26):
clients who they tell me exactly what section of the
book they're working on, and then that's and i'm that
external accountability. But you know, breaking things down, that's that's
really really important. So thank you for that. So did
you have any you know with this book, any new
like tricks or tools that that helped you write the book,
(15:47):
anything new that that you found useful.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
It was all new because even though we had written
a book so long ago, it was such a different
process for me. Like I don't really read remember writing
the first book all that much, like I do, but
I don't like it felt like it was still that
book to me felt like an extended blog post, right
(16:12):
that had a story that was around it, where this
book felt like there was more at stake because we
were working with a publisher and so they it felt
all very new. So like the tools and things that
you're talking about, like all of it was new to
me and trying to figure out like you know, how
(16:36):
how to use this platform?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
What was the one that we used before we went
to Microsoft Word.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We used ulysses to write the initial draft of the book. Yeah,
and as soon as it was hugely helpful because it's
definitely a distraction free kind of environment. As soon as
the as we had to turn in our first draft
for edits, you know, the publisher uses word we migrated
everything the words.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Sure, but I think for that initial piece it was
helpful because we could look at it just by chapter
and I could see, you know, where things were falling
and where things needed to move and.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Change and around. So, yeah, it was an experience, but
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Like. That's the thing I think that was the most
surprising to me is that I never really considered myself
an author. I wasn't really like we were lucky that
we weren't necessarily looking for this. This opportunity came and
we were grateful for it, and we knew that, you know,
we wanted to do something with it. And so I
(17:39):
had to kind of like convince myself like I am
an author, Like I can do this, like I can
write this.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
And you know, get my head around that a little bit.
That was new.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That was new, And that's a big step, Nicky, right
to go from well, I've written a couple of things too.
Oh no, wait a minute, I am an author. That's
a huge mindset shift for you. And how did it
feel to finally get there? Or are you there?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
I'm not sure if I'm there, Like I have the book,
I see it, and you know it's behind me right like, uh,
but it's still very surreal and uh, it's it's it's
one of those things that you put your heart and
soul in it. And I know we're going to talk
a little bit about perfectionism, but man, that gets in
the way, doesn't it, Like, because you don't know exactly
(18:33):
when to stop or when to let go of it.
But there's still this like balance of I'm not ready
to let go of this yet. And one of the
examples I have of that is we're having a meeting
with our contact and she is praising us about how
wonderful we are to work with and how we've met
all of our deadlines and we're doing all of these
(18:54):
great things, and then at the very end of the conversation,
I say, so, I really would like to add another chapter.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I don't think it's over yet. I need a I
need the last chapter.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
And I didn't know what she was gonna say, but
she was like, okay, like we'll make that happen. If
you think that we need another you know this, I
needed to wrap it up a little differently than what
I had. I knew that that I really wanted that
to happen for me to feel like it was complete.
So I think there's a fine line between you know,
what feels good, what what, and then Windy you let
(19:30):
it go or what does need improvement? And in that moment,
I really felt like I needed to push for something
to change.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And then after we had it and it was all completed,
it felt good.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
It felt good to let it go and say, Okay,
we're bringing it out to the world.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Let's see what he I love that, all right. So
check out their book Take Control, adhd dot com, forward
slash ADHD book, and Nikki and Pete have also talked
about their podcast and the community, so I make I
will make sure to get those links from them and
they will also be in the show notes. Right just
(20:09):
before we dive into perfection, I want to talk about
the structure of the book. Was that an intentional choice
to kind of merge that personally, say storytelling with with uh,
you know hard this is what you do content?
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Absolutely, it was intentional because that is that's exactly how
the podcast is, is that I'm coming from the ADHD
coach perspective. He's coming from somebody that was living with ADHD.
So it was actually really important to us that it
was a distinction so that when you read the book
you can see what where I'm speaking and where Pete
is speaking. It was so important that they have to
(20:45):
redo the audio book.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
For sure, voices on the audio because.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
They didn't do it correctly on the on the audio,
and and we said, we need to change this because
it's critical to the book that you know when Pete
is sing and when I'm speaking, and so they and
they're going to.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Make that happen.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
But it makes the book so much more interesting. If
you were just to have a how to book with
you know, this is how you plan with ADHD, that's boring,
but you get to in every chapter you get to
read this essay from Pete who is a wonderful writer,
creative writer.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And be able to really relate to it.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
And then you know, kind of and you get to
process that, think about it, and then you can move
into Okay, what's the next step.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, no, I love that. I think it's I think
it's I believe non fictional authors, uh, nonfiction book should
always have stories and personalities weave through. This is this
is my belief part of what what I do. All right,
let's talk about perfectionism. Isn't a scam?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Who's who's making money? At what end of the deal
of a perfectionism? I think everybody loses?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
They sure do.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
Yeah, we we eat quite a bit about that, the about.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Just the the way we we let our brains take
advantage of us by convincing us that that you know,
if it's not if if whatever our work product is,
it is not living up to some arbitrary level of
perfect that we've set in our own heads that are
probably more influenced by our parents and what their parents
(22:26):
taught them, that we're somehow failures are imposters, and it's
a huge impediment to the creative process.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
It's just massive.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It's it's an impediment to the productivity process too, like
it becomes an impediment to just life. But but at
the macro scale or at the micro scale for our conversation. Yeah,
I think it gets in the way of actually releasing stuff.
And I say that as somebody with five novels in
the drawer like I. That's my life, right is figuring
(22:56):
out how to get unstuck.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah. So, Peter, do you talk to yourself around it?
What do you what do you do for it? What
strategies have you found useful for yourself.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I love the concept of speaking truth to power, and
sometimes I have to I'm the power. I have to
I have to brainstorm with with my wife, with my
business partner.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
I have to say out loud.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Look, I think I'm The word I tend to use
is I'm back pocketing success. I've worked really hard creating
this thing, whatever it is. Maybe it's a new podcast,
maybe it's a book. But I put it in my
back pocket even after I believe it's finished, because I'm
afraid of it not being not living up to perfection,
of it not being the thing that I think everyone
(23:45):
expects of me. And the truth of the matter is,
and what I'm explicitly asking for in return is, Hey, Pete,
nobody is thinking about you right now. Nobody expects anything
from you right now, just released the book, and uh,
and I think that's the that's the mantra I've sort
of had to had to take on over the years,
(24:07):
and it's it's you know, it's what allows us to
put new things, you know, in the world every day.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, it reminds me of that. You know, sometimes you're
your teenagers talking to and you want to turn around
and go believe it or not, you're not the center
of the universe.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Right, But our lizard brain doesn't like to hear that, right.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Our brain really thinks you under a spotlight exactly.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Well, And there were definitely a couple of conversations where
Pete and I would have to reassure each other that
the editors would tell us if this is really bad,
right like they would tell us, and so kind of
having faith that all right, somebody else mini editors are
watching this, are reading this and putting their hands on it,
and if it was really bad, we would know.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
So first, I think the great, the great one, our
first editor, Amy is just amazing. We just love Amy,
and she gave us she was our line editor r right.
She was doing so much work for us, and when
she wrote back after her first pass and said, hey,
you guys, I'm a legit fan of this book, and
then proceeded to show up to all of our sort
of media and launch events like she was always there,
(25:14):
And that was a real signal that this is getting
through to someone who spends all day looking at books
and doing these things, but this one helped her in
a way that just reminded us, Oh, maybe we are
in the right place here. We're in the right place
for this message right now.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I love that. That's excellent. I'm glad you were well
supported by the publisher, because you hear, you know, you
hear some authors are really well supported and some authors
are not. So I'm really I'm thrilled to hear that
you were well supported by the publisher. Will at least
by this one editor, but I'm assuming a publisher. Sounds
like they had a really good supporting support the author culture, right,
(25:52):
so absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, and certainly on the front end, on the front
end of the actual writing process, the publishing process.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Right yeah, good, good. So I'm going to ask you
for three takeaways or actions. But before I asked that,
I want to ask you is anything we've missed? Is
there anything you want to talk about anything that's important
that you that you want to say before we wrap up.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
You know, there's just one thing that I would say
that we didn't really touch on.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
There are a lot of rewrites.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
And that is the thing that I never expected, and
that really surprised me is that when when the first
draft was due, I was feeling like that had to
be the draft that was going to be published, right.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
No one told me that that wasn't the case.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
I didn't realize that that we would have three to
four more editors going through this process, and that I
would even have the opportunity to say, wait, I want
to put in an extra chapter or I want to
change this round. I didn't Those were the things I
didn't know. And once you learn that because you're living it.
(27:03):
I realized looking back, like there were so many opportunities
and we use them to rewrite and to move things around,
and really is so much like a puzzle. And that's
the one thing I would, you know, say that I
just learned that I just wasn't expecting, is like how
much rewriting would would happen, and to expect that, and
(27:24):
it's good, it's a good thing. It's a very positive thing.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, lots and lots and lots of rewrites.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
And I think it helps with the perfectionism because you
know that what you're writing doesn't have to be the
final draft.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
You know that other eyes are going to be on it.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
There's going to be other ideas, there's going to be
things that you might want to add or ends up
getting dumped, all the you know, all together whatever. But
I think that it kind of releases that pressure of
perfectionism a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
My favorite writing professor in college said to me, Look, look, Pete,
writing doesn't start until the second draft. And I've always
kept that in my you know, again, in my quite
heavy back pocket that you know, I'm feeling really stressed
about a first draft. Just get words on page. You know,
the real craft will start when you look at it
(28:17):
the second.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Time, exactly. And what I always say to my clients is,
I can't help you if it's in your head. Yeah,
I can't edit what's in your head. I can only
help you once it's on the page. It doesn't matter
if it's if it looks like coal and you want
a diamond, just you know, get the coal out and
we'll pressurize it into a diamond later. But until there's coal,
(28:40):
you can't make diamonds, right, So something I always say
to the authors, okay, anything else before we wrap up.
We're good, excellent, thank you, yeah, thank you so much.
So three action items are takeaways from our conversation that
will help the audience kind of you know, break through
their their creative chaos.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Nikki, you have them?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Do you have their?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Do you want three each? Or do we have to share?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
No?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Three?
Speaker 5 (29:07):
Three total?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Three total? Okay, will you go first? Eat?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
All right?
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I think that for me as somebody who I write,
I think I write more than Nikki. I'm part of
a number of sort fiction projects. For me, have multiple
things going at the same time. I find having a
startup and a cool down project that I can work
on that isn't the primary project I'm moving toward, you know,
(29:33):
completion is really nice just to be able to change voice,
to get myself warmed up. So taking ten minutes before
I actually start the work of the primary project to
just say what does Joe think about living in the city,
you know, and just start a new start, a new
creative kind of dump there is very very useful have
(29:54):
multiple things going.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I like that thing great, multiple things going.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
I would say, if you don't know already, figure out
where you write best at, you know, try a couple
of different places, like a coffee shop or a library.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
I tried the library.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
That didn't work as well for me, but the coffee
shop definitely did.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
But kind of.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Figure out where you like to write. When you like
to write. Are you a morning person afternoon person? When
do you feel you know, most motivated, and just really
lean into that and if it seems strange to somebody else,
that doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's whatever works best for you.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
Nice, Thank you, Yes, go ahead, I guess I have
one more, because we have three we need.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I am a huge believer in falling in love with
the tool that you use to write. I think that
it's really important to love whatever keyboard tool, whatever you use,
whatever software application you use, that you love it so
much you can get really intimate with it. You know
all the keyboard shortcuts, you know how to just move
fast to reduce friction getting words from your head to page.
(31:00):
However you do it, love it, love it, love it
to the point that you know it inside and out.
You know how many times do you run into people
who were like, I know I had to use Scrivener.
Everybody told me I had to use Scrivener, but I
just can't make sense of it. You know, well, go
ahead and just get a pen and paper and see
how that works, right, try things.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I love that, And I'm going to add to that
because you said, you know, everyone told me to use Scrivener.
I want to add to that that you can just
use Microsoft Word or a journal or Google Docs or
you know, we're always, you know, we get this feeling
that we have to go use something fancy in order
to be an author, or we need to have the
top line running shoes before we can run. It's not true.
(31:41):
Just just get started, use the simplest thing you can
find and get started. That's I'm just going to add
that to the mix.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Well, and it's it's such a mantra.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's what ended us up at Ulysses because it's so simple.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
It's just absolutely basic. There are no buttons, there's no fonts.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You just right just.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Write exactly, nothing to have to memorize and learn and
become an expert. And when you're really just what you
want to do is write Thank you so much for
both of you. I really appreciate your conversation today. I've
had a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Absolutely and thank you for joining us today on author Nation.
I hope this conversation has reminded you that your writing
process does not have to look like some traditional writing
process to be powerful. It's you finding the right strategies
and the support for you to get your book written.
So remember to visit authoration dot online for resources to
(32:39):
support your nonfiction journey. And if you love this episode,
which I knew you did, leave a review, share it
with a friend and tell someone who needs it that
they should listen to it. Your support helps us continue
bringing you valuable content. So keep writing, keep creating, and
continue sharing your unique store worries with the world.
Hello, everyone, Welcome to Author Nation Interviews. Today we're talking
about how to write a book when your brain doesn't
want to follow the rules that society has set out
for it, especially if you're a navigating creative chaos, the
myth of Perfection or ADHD. I'm your host, Melody and
here to share practical insights and strategies to help you
thrive as an author and make a meaningful impact with
(00:35):
your work. Remember to visit authornation dot online to explore
a wealth of resources created just for you. So whether
you're starting your day or unwinding in the evening, get comfortable.
It's time to meet our guests. Since twenty ten, certified
ADHD coach Nicki Kinzer and a professional podcaster and co
(00:56):
founder of the True Story FFA podcast network. I need
to know more about that. Actually, Pete Wright have been
the co hosts of the award winning podcast Taking Control
the ADHD Podcast, speaking to adults with ADHD all over
the globe. Over thirty seasons and more than six hundred episodes.
(01:18):
Nicki and Pete continue to offer support and strategies for
adults living with ADHD and now you can guess it,
they've decided to write their own book. That's why they're here.
I'm apologetically ADHD, a step by step framework for everyday
planning on your terms. All right, Hello, Pete, Nikki, how
(01:38):
are you guys today?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So good and so grateful to be here?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yes, thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Absolutely, I am absolutely thrilled that you were here. I
really want to just start with a little bit of
your origin story. Let's say, so, how did ADHD podcast
come alive?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
That's that's a great question.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
It actually started with a conversation that Pete and I had.
So Pete has been a part of my business since
day one, and I actually started as a professional organizer,
so the company used to be called Take Control Organizing,
and I was invited to do a weekly radio show,
(02:23):
local radio show on organizing. And because Pete's been with
me since day one, he's also sort of my go
to person of what do you think about this? Would
you know, does this sound like a good idea?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
And he said, no, it doesn't. It doesn't sound like
a good idea.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
And I think, you know, I don't think you should
do a weekly local radio show. I think you should
have a podcast, like let's do a podcast. And this
was back in twenty ten, where I had no idea
what a podcast was.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
They were not very popular.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
He did, thankfully, he knew what it was and he
knew what he was doing. I honestly thought it was
something that was just going to go on the website
like a blog. I thought you would have to go
to the website to listen to it. I didn't realize
that all you had to do was go into iTunes
and go to podcasts and we would be there. If
I had known that, I don't know if I would
(03:16):
have done it, So I'm kind of glad that I didn't.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
No.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
So for a couple of years we did the organizing podcast,
and then at that point I had decided to switch
my focus to ADHDS because most of my clients did
have ADHD and it was a real interest of mine.
I really enjoyed doing the work, and so we switched
everything and went to the organizing podcast to taking control
(03:42):
of the ADHD podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, and then from there that's all she wrote, Yeah, yeah,
and from there to the book Pete right.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, yeah, I mean it was a long road between
there and the book, and you know, the show is
kind of evolved over the years, but we ended up
getting a call into the TCA, you know, Global HQ
from a publisher who said, you know what we I have, ADHD,
(04:11):
and I listened to your show and I love it
and have you ever thought about writing a book? And
so it was they came to us and said, we'd
like to turn this sort of library that you've created
over the last fifteen years into something you know on
page what do you think?
Speaker 5 (04:28):
And it took a bit of thinking.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And I'll just say in all candor, we had written
a book which we had self published back in the day.
It was an organizing book and it was hard.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
It was so hard.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It was so hard, and you know, I think a
lot of things change over the years, the fact that
that our relationship has changed as we've been working together
for so long, and and so you know, if the eventuality,
you know that we said yes to a second book
came with a lot more tools, I think in working
together and and figuring out how to how to write
(05:06):
you know, our our our most important kind of message.
And so we did and now we have this, this
book and apologetically Adhd, and it's it's I hope helping
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I love this title I have I have clients who
are who who work write with ADHD and so I'm
excited for them to have this tool. So that's really exciting.
Now I'm going to say that I think there are
two things that can happen. One, if you try to
write a book the first time, whether you're successful or
it's the beautiful book that you've always wanted or not,
(05:42):
that gives you a lot of experience for your next try.
And secondly that today's the tools we have today to
write a book can really simplify the process in many ways.
And so I'm glad that that first book didn't turn
you off and that and that you took the plant
in you and you decided to write a second book.
(06:03):
So let's talk about your writing process. I know you've
called your writing process creatively chaotic, So can you talk
a little bit about what that means? And then I'd
love to hear from Nikki about her writing process and
see like how did they work together or didn't they
or you know, how did we work together?
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, we don't need them to work together. That would
be sthodistically chaotic, I.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Think is what we would call it.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
No, I you know this, my.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Writing process is typically just just churn out as much
as I can and in short, short sprints. And that
has been a lesson hard one over the years. We'll
talk about that in a little bit, I imagine, so
I find at least, you know, for the process of
the book. You know, I would absolutely just try to
change context, try to leave the day job office, go
(06:53):
someplace else, set up my computer and an environment that
is different and stimulating. I always need some i'm you know,
in order to silence all of the different sort of
distracting voices I have in my head. I have to
have some background noise going on and and and then
you know, get to work and write in short, very
(07:14):
very short sprints. And you know, I mean the old
saw always always end mid sentence, right, always end knowing
the next thing I'm going to write, and so that
I always come back not feeling completely lost. And the
way this book came together, the structure of the book is,
you know, it's very much like our podcast. I imagine.
(07:36):
There may not be a lot of people listening to
your show who have already crossed over to the ADHD podcast.
I invite you to come listen to us. If you
live with AC we'd love you to find a second home.
But the you know, the the book attempts to capture
our voice as much as possible. So Nicky is writing
the coaching stuff and the real meat and substance and
(07:56):
and sort of tutelage comes from Nicky's experience as a
coach without ADHD. And my stuff is, look, I live
with ADHD, And here's how it feels like all the
stuff Nicky's writing about, Here's how it feels to live that.
And here are some of the things I do for
myself to to help accommodate that as such, Like we
had a lot of flexibility to do sort of a
(08:18):
call and response to each other as we're writing the book,
and that I think that made it really fun.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah. I like how you talk about just getting words
on paper, not thinking it through, but just allowing things
to get out rather than trying to be perfect, which
and we can talk about that later if you want.
I also love that you finish mid sentence. I often
say that to my author's Look, if you have trouble
starting again, finishment sentence, finishment thought, finishment paragraph, because then
(08:47):
when you come back and you read it back, it'll help, right,
So thank you for that. Pete Nicky what about you.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yes, some some similarities for sure, and a little bit
different because he he was his part of the book
is definitely more like an essay. He's a storyteller, and
I'm much more this is how to do this or
these are some ways to do this. It's it's a
very nonfiction part. Not that his is fiction, because it's not.
(09:14):
It's all him, it's real, it's him, but it was
a different kind of writing than what he's doing right.
So for me, what was really important was I that
I wrote about something I knew a lot about and
that I was very comfortable with. I had a lot
of experience with and so when we picked the planning
(09:37):
and systems and how to plan your week, how to
plan your day, that is something that I work with
my clients every day.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I have a membership that's based around that.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
So I was pulling off of a lot of experience,
which was really helpful. I've done a lot of presentations
around planning and time management. So what I the very
first that I started doing was looking at these old
blog posts, these old podcast scripts that we've done in
(10:07):
the past around planning, the presentations that I've done and
started to like really gather the information into one spot
and start putting it together. So it was almost like
a puzzle for me was you know, what is the
first step, what's the second step, and so trying to
figure out what all.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
That looked like.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Like Pete, I found very quickly that I needed to
leave the house. I could not write in my office
where I do my regular work. I was interrupted way
too much with my family, interrupted by work stuff that
would draw me in and it just was not a
good environment.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
So I would leave the house.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
I would go There was a couple of different coffee
shops that I enjoyed going to. Like Pete, I had
to have noise, but I couldn't listen to the people
around me because I'd be listening to their conversations because
that's more fun than writing, right.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
So we're did we mention that, like I want to
know what's going on?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So I actually found a couple of playlists on classical
music and music to study, you know, to study to work,
And that was that was not anything I ever expected.
I did not realize that that would be so helpful
for me, but it certainly was. I would get that
music on, I would start listening to that piano and
(11:30):
if it started like raising its intensity and like I
felt my intensity getting really rubbed up and like excited
about what I was writing about.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
And that made a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah. I love that you recognize that you needed to
get out of the house and that you found the
right the right noise, right, some of us need noise,
some of us need silence. You needed noise, but you
found the right noise for that. And I also have
to say that, you know, Neil Gaiman was it is
saying that he goes to a coffee shop to write,
and he considers writing the actual act of writing, daydreaming
(12:07):
about what he might write, or listening in to other
people's conversations to get good dialogue ideas. So just suggesting,
just letting you know, Nikki, not so bad.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
If you're not such a bad idea.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, bad idea? Yes, all right? Add and deadlines can
be a messy combo. I mean I struggle with deadlines.
I think we all struggle with deadlines. But there's this
extra layer, right, So how did you use external accountability
to keep your yourselves moving along with this book?
Speaker 4 (12:42):
I couldn't have written the book without it? Fair enough,
that's my I mean, and I don't have ADHD.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I'll be fair, but like I don't.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
But it was critical for me to have these deadlines.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah yeah, And so how did they help?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Well, well, yeah, I mean, I I deadlines are critical.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
I felt like that too.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
I had external sort of reminders my task management system,
my work management system. They were constantly pinging me reminding me.
One of the muscles I've been really developing is breaking
down requirements in my task management system to a very
small level, like just just complete this tiny section today,
or the intro to this particular essay, get it done today.
(13:27):
The smaller sort of atomic element of a particular project
that I made it the easier it was, to just
move the ball down the field just a little bit
at a time. The other thing that helped me, though,
and this is I'd be lying if I said it
was just all roses. I didn't have any trouble with
deadlines on this book, but in my life a lot.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Of other things slipped.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Right.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
There's a cost to everything.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I was laid on all kinds of things because I
was sitting at the coffee shop writing this book. And
that's that's just the reality of doing the project for
me is that I did have some you know, ADHD
related balls that fell to the floor, so it happened.
The other thing that was great about this one, which
is not necessarily actionable for everybody, but I was in
(14:17):
the middle of Nano Raimo when Nicki started writing the book,
and so this was now over a year ago, right
in twenty twenty three, and so Nicki was already well
on the road to getting the book written when I
had to jump in. And as someone, you know, I
think everybody kind of recognizes this, but maybe with ADHD
(14:39):
you might live this more, have a better grasp of this.
The adrenal deadline is legitimate. Like coming in and already
feeling like you're behind starts that a drenal system going,
and that helps motivate you toward a goal much more quickly.
It's not a healthy way to live, it's not a
healthy way to writ right, but it is sometimes the
(15:02):
tool that's that's required, and that definitely came in for me.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, No, that makes perfect sense. And I like how
you talked about, you know, having enough of an outline
that you can say, Okay, I'm just tackling this segment today.
Rather than sitting down and saying, well, I'm writing a book,
which is just it's so it's it's huge and abstract
and we just can't sit down and write a book.
So yeah, I'm glad that you said that. I have
(15:26):
clients who they tell me exactly what section of the
book they're working on, and then that's and i'm that
external accountability. But you know, breaking things down, that's that's
really really important. So thank you for that. So did
you have any you know with this book, any new
like tricks or tools that that helped you write the book,
(15:47):
anything new that that you found useful.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
It was all new because even though we had written
a book so long ago, it was such a different
process for me. Like I don't really read remember writing
the first book all that much, like I do, but
I don't like it felt like it was still that
book to me felt like an extended blog post, right
(16:12):
that had a story that was around it, where this
book felt like there was more at stake because we
were working with a publisher and so they it felt
all very new. So like the tools and things that
you're talking about, like all of it was new to
me and trying to figure out like you know, how
(16:36):
how to use this platform?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
What was the one that we used before we went
to Microsoft Word.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
We used ulysses to write the initial draft of the book. Yeah,
and as soon as it was hugely helpful because it's
definitely a distraction free kind of environment. As soon as
the as we had to turn in our first draft
for edits, you know, the publisher uses word we migrated
everything the words.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Sure, but I think for that initial piece it was
helpful because we could look at it just by chapter
and I could see, you know, where things were falling
and where things needed to move and.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Change and around. So, yeah, it was an experience, but
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Like. That's the thing I think that was the most
surprising to me is that I never really considered myself
an author. I wasn't really like we were lucky that
we weren't necessarily looking for this. This opportunity came and
we were grateful for it, and we knew that, you know,
we wanted to do something with it. And so I
(17:39):
had to kind of like convince myself like I am
an author, Like I can do this, like I can
write this.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
And you know, get my head around that a little bit.
That was new.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That was new, And that's a big step, Nicky, right
to go from well, I've written a couple of things too.
Oh no, wait a minute, I am an author. That's
a huge mindset shift for you. And how did it
feel to finally get there? Or are you there?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
I'm not sure.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
I'm not sure if I'm there, Like I have the book,
I see it, and you know it's behind me right like, uh,
but it's still very surreal and uh, it's it's it's
one of those things that you put your heart and
soul in it. And I know we're going to talk
a little bit about perfectionism, but man, that gets in
the way, doesn't it, Like, because you don't know exactly
(18:33):
when to stop or when to let go of it.
But there's still this like balance of I'm not ready
to let go of this yet. And one of the
examples I have of that is we're having a meeting
with our contact and she is praising us about how
wonderful we are to work with and how we've met
all of our deadlines and we're doing all of these
(18:54):
great things, and then at the very end of the conversation,
I say, so, I really would like to add another chapter.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I don't think it's over yet. I need a I
need the last chapter.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
And I didn't know what she was gonna say, but
she was like, okay, like we'll make that happen. If
you think that we need another you know this, I
needed to wrap it up a little differently than what
I had. I knew that that I really wanted that
to happen for me to feel like it was complete.
So I think there's a fine line between you know,
what feels good, what what, and then Windy you let
(19:30):
it go or what does need improvement? And in that moment,
I really felt like I needed to push for something
to change.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
And then after we had it and it was all completed,
it felt good.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
It felt good to let it go and say, Okay,
we're bringing it out to the world.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Let's see what he I love that, all right. So
check out their book Take Control, adhd dot com, forward
slash ADHD book, and Nikki and Pete have also talked
about their podcast and the community, so I make I
will make sure to get those links from them and
they will also be in the show notes. Right just
(20:09):
before we dive into perfection, I want to talk about
the structure of the book. Was that an intentional choice
to kind of merge that personally, say storytelling with with uh,
you know hard this is what you do content?
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Absolutely, it was intentional because that is that's exactly how
the podcast is, is that I'm coming from the ADHD
coach perspective. He's coming from somebody that was living with ADHD.
So it was actually really important to us that it
was a distinction so that when you read the book
you can see what where I'm speaking and where Pete
is speaking. It was so important that they have to
(20:45):
redo the audio book.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
For sure, voices on the audio because.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
They didn't do it correctly on the on the audio,
and and we said, we need to change this because
it's critical to the book that you know when Pete
is sing and when I'm speaking, and so they and
they're going to.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Make that happen.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
But it makes the book so much more interesting. If
you were just to have a how to book with
you know, this is how you plan with ADHD, that's boring,
but you get to in every chapter you get to
read this essay from Pete who is a wonderful writer,
creative writer.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And be able to really relate to it.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
And then you know, kind of and you get to
process that, think about it, and then you can move
into Okay, what's the next step.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Yeah, no, I love that. I think it's I think
it's I believe non fictional authors, uh, nonfiction book should
always have stories and personalities weave through. This is this
is my belief part of what what I do. All right,
let's talk about perfectionism. Isn't a scam?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Who's who's making money? At what end of the deal
of a perfectionism? I think everybody loses?
Speaker 3 (21:58):
They sure do.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
Yeah, we we eat quite a bit about that, the about.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Just the the way we we let our brains take
advantage of us by convincing us that that you know,
if it's not if if whatever our work product is,
it is not living up to some arbitrary level of
perfect that we've set in our own heads that are
probably more influenced by our parents and what their parents
(22:26):
taught them, that we're somehow failures are imposters, and it's
a huge impediment to the creative process.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
It's just massive.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It's it's an impediment to the productivity process too, like
it becomes an impediment to just life. But but at
the macro scale or at the micro scale for our conversation. Yeah,
I think it gets in the way of actually releasing stuff.
And I say that as somebody with five novels in
the drawer like I. That's my life, right is figuring
(22:56):
out how to get unstuck.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yeah. So, Peter, do you talk to yourself around it?
What do you what do you do for it? What
strategies have you found useful for yourself.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I love the concept of speaking truth to power, and
sometimes I have to I'm the power. I have to
I have to brainstorm with with my wife, with my
business partner.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
I have to say out loud.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Look, I think I'm The word I tend to use
is I'm back pocketing success. I've worked really hard creating
this thing, whatever it is. Maybe it's a new podcast,
maybe it's a book. But I put it in my
back pocket even after I believe it's finished, because I'm
afraid of it not being not living up to perfection,
of it not being the thing that I think everyone
(23:45):
expects of me. And the truth of the matter is,
and what I'm explicitly asking for in return is, Hey, Pete,
nobody is thinking about you right now. Nobody expects anything
from you right now, just released the book, and uh,
and I think that's the that's the mantra I've sort
of had to had to take on over the years,
(24:07):
and it's it's you know, it's what allows us to
put new things, you know, in the world every day.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yes, it reminds me of that. You know, sometimes you're
your teenagers talking to and you want to turn around
and go believe it or not, you're not the center
of the universe.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Right, But our lizard brain doesn't like to hear that, right.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Our brain really thinks you under a spotlight exactly.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Well, And there were definitely a couple of conversations where
Pete and I would have to reassure each other that
the editors would tell us if this is really bad,
right like they would tell us, and so kind of
having faith that all right, somebody else mini editors are
watching this, are reading this and putting their hands on it,
and if it was really bad, we would know.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
So first, I think the great, the great one, our
first editor, Amy is just amazing. We just love Amy,
and she gave us she was our line editor r right.
She was doing so much work for us, and when
she wrote back after her first pass and said, hey,
you guys, I'm a legit fan of this book, and
then proceeded to show up to all of our sort
of media and launch events like she was always there,
(25:14):
And that was a real signal that this is getting
through to someone who spends all day looking at books
and doing these things, but this one helped her in
a way that just reminded us, Oh, maybe we are
in the right place here. We're in the right place
for this message right now.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I love that. That's excellent. I'm glad you were well
supported by the publisher, because you hear, you know, you
hear some authors are really well supported and some authors
are not. So I'm really I'm thrilled to hear that
you were well supported by the publisher. Will at least
by this one editor, but I'm assuming a publisher. Sounds
like they had a really good supporting support the author culture, right,
(25:52):
so absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, and certainly on the front end, on the front
end of the actual writing process, the publishing process.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Right yeah, good, good. So I'm going to ask you
for three takeaways or actions. But before I asked that,
I want to ask you is anything we've missed? Is
there anything you want to talk about anything that's important
that you that you want to say before we wrap up.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
You know, there's just one thing that I would say
that we didn't really touch on.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
There are a lot of rewrites.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
And that is the thing that I never expected, and
that really surprised me is that when when the first
draft was due, I was feeling like that had to
be the draft that was going to be published, right.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
No one told me that that wasn't the case.
Speaker 4 (26:43):
I didn't realize that that we would have three to
four more editors going through this process, and that I
would even have the opportunity to say, wait, I want
to put in an extra chapter or I want to
change this round. I didn't Those were the things I
didn't know. And once you learn that because you're living it.
(27:03):
I realized looking back, like there were so many opportunities
and we use them to rewrite and to move things around,
and really is so much like a puzzle. And that's
the one thing I would, you know, say that I
just learned that I just wasn't expecting, is like how
much rewriting would would happen, and to expect that, and
(27:24):
it's good, it's a good thing. It's a very positive thing.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, lots and lots and lots of rewrites.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
And I think it helps with the perfectionism because you
know that what you're writing doesn't have to be the
final draft.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
You know that other eyes are going to be on it.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
There's going to be other ideas, there's going to be
things that you might want to add or ends up
getting dumped, all the you know, all together whatever. But
I think that it kind of releases that pressure of
perfectionism a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
My favorite writing professor in college said to me, Look, look, Pete,
writing doesn't start until the second draft. And I've always
kept that in my you know, again, in my quite
heavy back pocket that you know, I'm feeling really stressed
about a first draft. Just get words on page. You know,
the real craft will start when you look at it
(28:17):
the second.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Time, exactly. And what I always say to my clients is,
I can't help you if it's in your head. Yeah,
I can't edit what's in your head. I can only
help you once it's on the page. It doesn't matter
if it's if it looks like coal and you want
a diamond, just you know, get the coal out and
we'll pressurize it into a diamond later. But until there's coal,
(28:40):
you can't make diamonds, right, So something I always say
to the authors, okay, anything else before we wrap up.
We're good, excellent, thank you, yeah, thank you so much.
So three action items are takeaways from our conversation that
will help the audience kind of you know, break through
their their creative chaos.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Nikki, you have them?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Do you have their?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Do you want three each? Or do we have to share?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
No?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Three?
Speaker 5 (29:07):
Three total?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Three total? Okay, will you go first? Eat?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
All right?
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I think that for me as somebody who I write,
I think I write more than Nikki. I'm part of
a number of sort fiction projects. For me, have multiple
things going at the same time. I find having a
startup and a cool down project that I can work
on that isn't the primary project I'm moving toward, you know,
(29:33):
completion is really nice just to be able to change voice,
to get myself warmed up. So taking ten minutes before
I actually start the work of the primary project to
just say what does Joe think about living in the city,
you know, and just start a new start, a new
creative kind of dump there is very very useful have
(29:54):
multiple things going.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I like that thing great, multiple things going.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
I would say, if you don't know already, figure out
where you write best at, you know, try a couple
of different places, like a coffee shop or a library.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
I tried the library.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
That didn't work as well for me, but the coffee
shop definitely did.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
But kind of.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Figure out where you like to write. When you like
to write. Are you a morning person afternoon person? When
do you feel you know, most motivated, and just really
lean into that and if it seems strange to somebody else,
that doesn't matter.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It's whatever works best for you.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
Nice, Thank you, Yes, go ahead, I guess I have
one more, because we have three we need.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I am a huge believer in falling in love with
the tool that you use to write. I think that
it's really important to love whatever keyboard tool, whatever you use,
whatever software application you use, that you love it so
much you can get really intimate with it. You know
all the keyboard shortcuts, you know how to just move
fast to reduce friction getting words from your head to page.
(31:00):
However you do it, love it, love it, love it
to the point that you know it inside and out.
You know how many times do you run into people
who were like, I know I had to use Scrivener.
Everybody told me I had to use Scrivener, but I
just can't make sense of it. You know, well, go
ahead and just get a pen and paper and see
how that works, right, try things.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
I love that, And I'm going to add to that
because you said, you know, everyone told me to use Scrivener.
I want to add to that that you can just
use Microsoft Word or a journal or Google Docs or
you know, we're always, you know, we get this feeling
that we have to go use something fancy in order
to be an author, or we need to have the
top line running shoes before we can run. It's not true.
(31:41):
Just just get started, use the simplest thing you can
find and get started. That's I'm just going to add
that to the mix.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Well, and it's it's such a mantra.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's what ended us up at Ulysses because it's so simple.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
It's just absolutely basic. There are no buttons, there's no fonts.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
You just right just.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Write exactly, nothing to have to memorize and learn and
become an expert. And when you're really just what you
want to do is write Thank you so much for
both of you. I really appreciate your conversation today. I've
had a lot of fun. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Absolutely and thank you for joining us today on author Nation.
I hope this conversation has reminded you that your writing
process does not have to look like some traditional writing
process to be powerful. It's you finding the right strategies
and the support for you to get your book written.
So remember to visit authoration dot online for resources to
(32:39):
support your nonfiction journey. And if you love this episode,
which I knew you did, leave a review, share it
with a friend and tell someone who needs it that
they should listen to it. Your support helps us continue
bringing you valuable content. So keep writing, keep creating, and
continue sharing your unique store worries with the world.
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