April 23, 2024 • 51 mins
This week Flick talks with Nicholas Hooper, who was the composer for the iconic score you hear in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix and Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.
Check out Nicholas work (that we discuss at the end of the episode) here:
Dawnings - https://wordandnote.com/dawnings/
Books - https://wordandnote.com/shop/
Check out Nicholas work (that we discuss at the end of the episode) here:
Dawnings - https://wordandnote.com/dawnings/
Books - https://wordandnote.com/shop/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hello, and welcome to episode fourof Behind the wand my name's Flick Miles
and I was Emma Watson's double andHarry Potter films. In this podcast,
I speak to other people who workedon the films about their experience and what
life was like behind the scenes.I always am really interested. I start
(00:29):
every podcast with that little intro,but I don't know whether the same people
listening do I still need to doit. I don't know, but I'm
still doing it anyway. This weekwe have Nicholas Hooper on the podcast.
He was the composer for the fifthand sixth film, so The Order of
the Phoenix and The Half Blood Prince. It was so brilliant interviewing him.
(00:52):
I had very little musical knowledge orknowledge of what it takes to score a
film, so it was super interestinghearing his stories. And also he had
to score some really important moments likethe death of Sirius Black and the death
of Dumbledore, so I was reallyexcited to speak to him about that.
So you will hear us talking aboutthat a few little things. We talk
(01:15):
about David a lot in this episodebecause he is very good friends with David
Yates and had worked with David Yateson every single one of his projects,
bar one before Harry Potter. Soit does get a little bit confusing because
there's obviously David Hayman, but ifwe're just saying David, it's normally is
David Yates, and if we're talkingabout David Hayman, we'll say David Hayman.
(01:38):
And also, there is a beepingsound of my dishwasher alarm that like
sporadically goes off, so that ison the audio. I don't want anybody
being sent mad trying to find wherea beeping sounds coming from in their house
to find out it's actually on recording. So if you're hearing the odd beep,
that is from the recording. Anyway, let's get on with this week's
(01:59):
episode. I hope you enjoy it. So my first question, which hopefully
is an easy one, is canyou sort of outline what a composer does
when working in the film industry.Ah, well, there are various ways
of doing it. So from thepoint of view of a small film,
(02:21):
quite often the composer will get thefine cut or almost the fine cut of
the film and then maybe have amonth or a couple of weeks to come
up with music for it, andthat would be not a big job,
probably be done electronically mostly maybe oneinstrument, and then it will expand to
(02:43):
the composed being involved earlier on,sometimes even before filming or the rough cut
stage, and therefore it will bemuch more looking at different sequences and writing
music for that and developing themes.So it's a much longer process. And
in the case of a big filmlike Harry Potter, particularly for me and
(03:05):
David working on a big film togetherfor the first time, we really got
in a year before it needed tobe recorded, and so that's a long
process of working with theme stories.I'd sell you on the drama front because
I did start off doing nature filmsand now well from the two thousands I
(03:30):
was doing dramas. Mostly that itwas very important to read the script.
So I would not take on adrama without reading the script because sometimes i'd
read the script now I'd say,I know where this is going, I'm
not very interested, and I wouldn'tdo it. So I liked the story
(03:53):
was absolutely tuned about for me,and I think probably for lots of film
composers. You need to be thrilledby the story really inspired by it in
order to actually come up with thegoods. Well, yeah, absolutely.
I guess if it's something that you'renot interested in, it's hard to feel
creative about it. I can sitaway. So he sort of said,
you'd worked with David Yates before?Yes? So did he just sort of
(04:17):
how did it? How did hefirst bring up Harry Potter to you?
Did he just approach you and sayI'm doing this and I'd love you to
come on board? And was thatthe beginning of the journey for you to
Yes? Well, of course wework right from when he was a student
way back in the nineties and thendone everything except one film called Sex Traffic
(04:38):
because it had to have to bea Canadian composer. So we just done
The Girl in the Cafe with BillNye, which a lovely little film.
And I hadn't heard from a bit. And I was walking along pavement in
Whitney, my local town, andhe said, Nick, I got Harry
(05:00):
Potter stripped over the raised bit ofpayment in front of me. I couldn't
believe it. I couldn't believe itbecause also because he I had always sort
of him as a sort of quitea sick. Well, I'm not saying
how imports serious, but he'd donemore of the fringe films will be very
successful. They've been very successful,and I think looking back, he was
(05:24):
a brilliant choice because he really wastaking it in away from the sort of
blockbuster direction into something more serious asactually the stories also get deeper and darker.
So I probably said too much,so I agree, and I was
(05:46):
absolutely true. So there we were. He just asked me to do it,
and then it was just a caseof persuading Warner Brothers that it was
a good idea to take a riskon a posa they'd never really seen before
do a big film. And wedid it very, very gradually by finding
(06:09):
all the best sort of bits ofbig orchestral music I've done before, quite
a lot from them from animal fromnatural history films, and then we actually
we did this is the earliest piecewe did for that, for the Order
of the Phoenix. I had thestoryboard. I noticed you work the storyboard
(06:30):
writer, the same guy I gota storyboard of Harry's entrance into the Ministry
of Magic, right, yeah,And it's just something that would start small
and swells to something huge. Andthat was the first piece of music I
wrote, and we actually recorded itin every road. It's totally thrilling.
(06:56):
Well, I'm not sure. Ithink I might well have been more or
less on board, but you knowit was just a demonstration of what I
could do, and that was it. We were we were in. So
you'd seen that, I mean,had you read the Harry Potter books,
had you seen the films? Wereyou coming to it fresh or you sort
of were aware of the previous four? Well, to start off with us
Harry Potter fan so from the ninetieswas a friend of mine said, have
(07:23):
you seen this book, Harry?It's amazing. And she was a writer
herself and she said, just amazingwriting. And as I've always been interested
in stories and writing, I pickedit up and then I was hooked.
So I was hooked with the bookscompletely from where I go. I'd get
them out as soon as they Iget by them, as soon as they
came out. Everyone. So thefilms. When I first saw the first
(07:50):
one, as I was outraged becauseI wanted to do it, I had,
I had to confess say it wasjob really, who is you know?
Phenomenal and be you know that therewas no way I was going to
do it, so I thought,well, I sort of put a wish
up there that maybe one day i'ddo it. So how does your process
(08:13):
work? So you said you youhad about a year working on Was that
the same for the fifth and thesixth? The year you sort of breezed
through from one year to the next. Were the fifth we took a year
over, I think probably partly becausewe were we needed to find our way.
Yeah. Of course we were goingwell away from the John Williams type
(08:33):
of style, so we changed thestyle both of them, his directing and
from my writing. And so whenhe came to the second one, we
did wonder whether by the end therewas a sort of fatigue setting in or
we worried that there was. Actuallyit wasn't adrenaline, but I think we
(08:58):
decided to make it a bit shorter, so it was more like six months.
Yeah, And actually it was reallyhard at the end because things were
changing so rapidly with the film thatI was struggling to keep up. Yeah,
but I managed anido. It's veryfunny that film would be when it
(09:24):
has to be the best film I'veever written, where the best music school
I've ever done? Would be thehalfl the plnce in my opinion. Yeah,
so's the first step you reading thescript? Then is that how it
worked? And then do you haveconversations with David and then go up and
sort of start putting stuff together.How does it? How does it work?
(09:46):
And how does it then work ina team? I guess there's you
and so that's I guess two questions. What's your process and then what does
the team look like? Yes?And how does it work? Well,
it's very interesting because it's thinking back. Lots of conversation with David early on
and we would meet he he usedto live in the next village to me
in Oxfordshire, but he was oftencoming down from London at that point of
(10:11):
course, but we would meet andtalk early on and maybe come up with
some ideas. But also both DavidBarron and David Hayman were very involved as
well. They have a lot ofinput and they were incredibly encouraging and supportive.
You know, it's not the usualexperience I think of doing blockbusters.
(10:35):
You probably experienced it yourself. Itwas a real family, really well well
supported feeling to it. So therewould be that there would be the point
where we started getting rushes, andsometimes David let me see some of the
rushes and even even send a veryvery you know, a very early cut
(11:00):
of something for me to try trysome themes. So for instance, you
know, I might I might getsomething like that and this I can remember
it more in the first one ofall the Phoenix that I'd get to get
a cut, and then I wouldwrite, what has about six ideas?
(11:22):
Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, But I was a fast writer.
I'm a sort of throw the paintof the wall, see what happens kind
a composer. And I remember theUmbradge one in particular. It was that
I did six and when I wasgetting to the end, I thought,
(11:45):
let's try something completely off the wall. You won't like this at all.
I could never tell with David,for sure, you know, because he
was always he was thinking so manydimensions at once, the completely bruant guy,
you know, extraordinary. Yeah,but I guess that's a great thing
(12:09):
for you that you can give somany, like, so many options like
that. Yes, that was mytechnique. I mean even before Potter,
it was my technique to give themoptions. It was my way of finding
my way in actually as well,because you know, a director can't tell
you what to write. It's onething they can't do. Actually, they're
(12:31):
really there's only one director I've metwho who had who was a musician,
and that was nice. But thatgood thing or a bad thing? Is
it? In this case it wasYes, it was James Halles, who's
really coming on now as the director. You've probably heard of him. But
(12:54):
they're all very musical. But butI have to find a language, a
way of what is going on intheir brain. And sometimes yes, so
there is the business of giving themlots of choices. Yeah, then gradually
holding things down till we begin tonarrow things down to something that's really working
(13:16):
for the whole film. And sometimeswe think something was really good and then
later on to say no, thatwe need something different. Yeah, was
that? So? I guess arethere any sort of I don't know if
the words like phrases or terms orthat sort of David, I mean David
Jakes, David Homan, and DavidBarron, all the David gave you in
terms of the films, Like we'vealways sort of said that they're definitely get
(13:39):
darker as they go on, especiallyHalfler Prints obviously but then I'd say,
like when I listen to the music, there is also lightness in it,
so there's you know, it's notit's not always dark and sinister. Can
you remember sort of any specific thingsthat they were sort of hoping to get
from from the score, Well,I mean the one of've there be another
(14:05):
podcast as well, because it's themost it's the most popular piece of music
I've written, which is The Dumbledore'sFarewell. And the word was dig deep,
dig deeper, dig deeper, Andit took it took really a long
(14:26):
time to come up with something that'sactually very simple. Ah, But that
that was one because they just wantedme to dig to the deepest sadness I
could find to bring that through,So that that was the sad one.
I think with the Journey down theRiver in the first one with the Order
(14:48):
of the Phoenix, that was muchmore about we need more energy, we
need more excitement, we need moreand that was quite a quite tricky one
to get right in the Yeah,and then I think with some give the
first one, the Dementors on theUnderpass, Yeah, that kept on comedia
(15:11):
it darker, but can we makethe bit where he does the lighter well,
that's the Yeah. I mean,I was actually just thinking about because
actually, for you had two verypoignant moments in when Serious Black dies and
when Dumbledore dies, which you knoware absolutely heartbreaking moments. And also we
(15:35):
hadn't really I guess, like CedricDiggery at the end of the fourth we
hadn't actually had like a big momentin terms of like death that with.
But then I was like, Iwas listening. I was listening to them
the other the other day, andit's I mean, it's quite a challenge
because especially with Serious and it's obviouslylike this whole fight going on, and
(15:56):
there's the drama of it, andthen it's suddenly goes to sort of him
dying in front of Harry and theSlowMo. So they must be quite challenging.
There must be a pressure to sortof score that those moments, but
also quite a challenge to have thatlike juxtaposition of action action, action and
then real heartbreak. Yes, andwhat I'm saying, I'm not sure I
(16:17):
do understand. And actually the twoare very different. I think the two
deaths because the first one was ashock. It's a shock, isn't it
because you're not expecting it it's outof the blue, somebody's dead, somebody's
just going back into the veil andhe's gone. And the we did try
(16:37):
you know, some big music barbersI dang you, you know that sort
of thing, but gradually pulled itright back, so it's terribly gentle and
rather sad leaving it really very muchto the acting. Harry's acting, yeah,
or Damn's acting, as might callit, and just fabulous. I
(16:59):
mean, Dan was so amazing inthat film. Whereis his eyes? And
I looked at his eyes a lot, and that really helped. What's interesting
is that the the big moment forCyrus's death in a way, or the
big emotional moment is is when whenHarry expels Voldemort from his head. Yeah,
(17:23):
fight was doumbledore ye, which Icall possession, one of my favorite
pieces actually I've ever ever wrote.And that is where, in a way,
all the emotion comes out. Mit's the emotional piece O. Yeah,
film, I think so it's it'sa delayed reaction in a way.
(17:45):
And I've been given that permission,you know, after all that stuff.
And initially we didn't score the fighteither, remember it was just sound effects.
We did look into it. Wedisappinted that actually was better to have
bish ban bongi and then just gointo this into into and it really worked
because I could have scored it,but it would just be like another scored
(18:07):
fight. Yeah yeah, yeah,you sort of want, like I said,
I think I said, but likeyou want a bit of light and
shade with the natural sound and thenthe scored moment. Yeah. So do
you have a favorite scored end?Yeah, it is the half Blood Prince
and actually coming to the Dumbodare's deathand that it was interesting because that was
(18:32):
a gradual build quite a few minutes, and it's actually it's run on it's
run on this machine. It's almostlike a musical. It's like Beethoven,
sort of building up, building up, building up gradually gradually, then leaving
a gap again and then bang,he's dead. Then it's all the bag
bag bang that got to dash afterHarry and it's all just fury. And
(18:55):
then of course once again the bigemotional moment comes when they find them in
the courtyard doubledore. Yeah. Yeah, so again it's delayed, it seems
true. So do you kind ofhave I guess you have that thought process
then when you are scoring that you're, like you said, you're not laying
it all on the line in thoseexact moments where Dumbledore dies, because you
(19:18):
sort of know that there's some afterit's going to be, you know,
the bit where they will hold upthere once that's that's actually maybe I guess
that's how you have to assess it, Like, which is the point where
you need the crescendo of heartbreak?I guess yeah, flex yes, I
think that's absolutely right. And whatDavid was very good at and what he
taught me and anybody else did thatyou don't have to you know, you
(19:42):
don't have to reinforce what the audienceis already saying. You need to be
giving them something else, and don'ttell them what to think because they don't
like it, you know, itcan you know, over gilding the lily,
making it all you know? ActuallyI was think, yeah, it's
a bit of a turn off.Really, it's distracting me from the film.
(20:04):
So it's all about the film really, But then for some odd reason,
the music lives on its own afterwardsand it's a strange thing. But
absolutely don't just just don't hit onthe nail. He never liked me hitting
things on the nail. Yeah,And then so when you I mean not
(20:26):
to be negative, but is thereanything that you when you've watched back since
you thought, oh I do thatslightly different or I think I could have
done gone in a different direction withthat, and maybe it would have worked.
Well, it's difficult now. Imean, I think probably if I'd
done the Order of Phoenix after theHalf Blood Prince, I would have made
it more monothematic, because the greatthing about the Half Blood Princes is actually
(20:51):
this this piece that goes through itstarts. It started as a piece called
in Nocktown. If you heard theCD, it's on the front and it's
required and we couldn't use it becausethe thing it was written for was taken
out the classing it. But itwas the first piece I wrote for that
film, and but we used itas the DNA for the whole score.
(21:15):
So it underscores everything. It justkeeps appearing. It. It appears every
time you see Dumbledore. It appearson the Journey of the Cave, that's
the biggest expression of it, andthen it appears on the cello at Dumbledorees
when you know, at Dumble's farewellso I would like to have perhaps done
(21:37):
another score that was like that,but the way that score happened was so
inexplicable. I'm not sure I couldhave done. I'm not I'm not a
person who writes, you know,in a very organized way. I'm organized
enough, but you know it,I think that would be one thing that
(22:00):
I love. I don't because Ithink the order Pen's is a lovely score
and I like it a lot,but it thematically, it's it's more varied,
it's bit of that way. Yeah, I'm trying to think of anything
else. I think there were justone or two places where I like to
have been a bit more punchy maybe, But you know, I think my
(22:23):
strength is in in the emotional yeah, rather than in the action, if
you like. I was about tosay, do you have a favorite?
Do you prefer those, like wesaid, potentially darker, more heavy moments
to the the lighter moments. Doyou prefer to score those moments more?
(22:45):
Yeah? I mean, I'm veryhappy to go for emotional beauty as well,
So you know, I love scoringsomething like that. There's were some
places in the film for those sortsof bits of beauty as well. Yeah.
Having said that I'm thinking back.You know, there were one or
two things I really enjoyed doing,like this the quidditch match in where I
(23:11):
took John Williams's three note sting thathe had for quidditch and then turned into
something that sounded a bit like Stravinsky. And I really enjoyed that hugely,
and it somehow it came alive ofits own accord. Yeah. The Ones
Who Are Fireworks is another one thatjust sort of Fireworks is one of my
favorites. I love I love thatpiece of music. It's just got a
(23:36):
real I guess this is so ridiculous, say, but it's just a real
magical element to it, like justa rhythm through it, which I really
really enjoy So I guess it's quiteSo. Did you sort of have any
intentions and obviously we'd have John Williamsdo the first three films. Did you
want to keep some continuity to thator were you keen to just take it
(24:00):
in a different direction? How?How how does it feel like? How
does it work when you're taking overon the same franchise from somebody from somebody
else? Yes? Terrifying, Imean yeah, I can imagine. I
was also terribly pleased, and Iwas going to learn to write like John
Williams, I thought. But wetried a bit going in that direction,
(24:25):
but found that it wasn't really mystyle and I wouldn't do it as well
as he would. Who would really, So I think David was quite keen
to taking a different direction as well, So we just said, do what
I do. Yes, that's whatI did. You know. It was,
(24:48):
yeah, that's but I think that'slike perfect, And I actually think
it was such a good decision becausethe film's just mature so much over the
over the series. You know,if you think about the first I would
say, think about the first twovery and none of these things I think
a negative, but it's a veryglossy, bright picture, you know,
(25:11):
magical. Then the third one weobviously take a darker tone, and they
slowly get darker. And I actuallythink it would have been detrimental to the
films if they hadn't have kept evolvingkey members of the crew, like the
director, composer, because also alot of people were growing up as well
watching the films and they needed thosedifferent elements. And you know, so
(25:33):
I feel like you can appreciate eachfilm and everyone who works in individually,
but also appreciate the evolution of HarryPotter from you watch the first one,
you watched the last one, thejourney that you go on, and you
know, the music for the firstfilm would not necessarily be the right vibe
for the fifth, sixth, seventhyear. No, not even from the
(25:56):
third really, which is the thirdfavor to the first three scores. No,
but anyway, I can do it. I didn't have that skill.
I got my own skills, butI didn't have that sort of amazingly detailed
orchestral zooming about skill that John Williamshas. So yeah, you're right,
(26:23):
and I think I think I thinkwe did exactly the right thing. And
I think what's extraordinary about it isthat I can't think of any other film
series where that's quite happened, wherethe film has grown up with the actors
and the audience. So you're watchinga children's film gradually telling to a young
(26:47):
youth film into an older youth film. It's really quite an adult film Lord
of the Rings sort of style atthe end. You know, Yeah,
definitely, it's very interesting that hAnd I think that's great. And I
was also thinking, if you thinkabout the story. The pivotal point.
(27:07):
It's just it was when in thegraveyard, when Digger is killed, that's
the point, that's the return ofYeah, properly. So everything pivots on
that point. And what was thegenius of David Hayman? I think,
who is the genius behind the wholeseries? JK. Rowling was was you
(27:33):
must have seen you know, thishas just changed. Everything's different now.
Yeah. The end of that filmis just where it's awful. Yeah.
Yeah, and then yeah, youhave to pick straight back up off that
once it turns back corner. There'sno going back. Is there no going
back? There's knowing back, goingback. The whole thing is now going
(27:53):
darker and darker. There's no wayback. Yeah, I think, I
think, I think I have tosay David Hayman is just extraordinary. And
I think back at back at whathe managed and how and how he has
this childish playfulness in him and yethe can go very dark and he's he's
got all the sort of shades ofwhat's needed. Yeah. Absolutely. Was
(28:18):
there any other sort of you know, films or anything that sort of inspired
you that you'd seen sort of thoughtall that. I like that sort of
vibe and sound that you brought toHarry Potter or do you not work like?
Is that just not how you howyou'd work else? Well, I
mean I took going back to bepre Potter. I'm just trying to think
(28:44):
what I Wasn't a great film person? Really not not a huge one of
the films I loved, you know, I don't really think they are.
They would apply the Deer Hunter,you know, what's a phenomenal film.
Maybe that has got some of thethat's got the darkness in it, hasn't
it. Yeah, I'm going toremember something at the end. Probably I
(29:11):
can't. I can't think of whatwas coming just before it? Would it
would have instanced be I mean,obviously if someone John warning Williams's scores I
heard before were fantastic. There wasone called I think The Pale Rider.
I think it was. It wasa Clint Eastwood directed film. It's quite
extraordinary. Was it's really I can'tremember. Wonderful school and I thought I'd
(29:34):
love to write a school like that. Yeah, very different from the Potter
schools. Yeah, and did youhave any conversations with John Williams or was
it do you just not work likethat because you don't want that influence.
And it's actually a clean, abetter to have sort of a I think
I sort of I would have likedto have had one, but I got
(29:56):
the impression nobody really to organize it. Yeah, yeah, so and I
think, you know, he wasbusy, and I think it would have
just been I can't good luck ofcourse, I mean, yeah, I
get it. And also, likeyou said, you really have to take
(30:19):
it in your own direction, andI think that's the best thing. There
was no point anything to do animitation of what before said. It needs
to keep moving and its own directionas the story does, so just to
really like break it down, whichagain this is probably going to sound really
unmusical minded. That so when youfirst have an idea, what you do
(30:41):
do you set at a piano andwrite something and and then you take it
to an orchestra and then you'd playit and record. Like how if you
break it down, what are thesort of states the technical stuff it's I
had a keyboard attached to a computer, so I mean way back in the
eighties. I worked late eighties.When I started, I worked out how
(31:03):
to use samples because that's all Iwas going to have the money for.
So I was using samplers with akeyboard and a computer. It's called programming
really, but it's I'm playing thepiano or the piano keyboard and putting stuff
in as I think of it,and maybe building it up in layers.
So I'd have a little tune ormaybe a chord sequence are put in first,
(31:27):
and then there would be another bitsto add on the top, and
maybe something else. Layer it upin bits and pieces until there was something
that sounded like like sort of pieceof music it should be for that.
I think once the first layer gonedown, that was the really throwing the
(31:48):
paint of the wall, and thenthe other layers sort of had to follow
that pattern. When you're saying layer, Sorry again, this might be really
question when you're saying layering, isit all the sound of the keyboard or
you layering or sound different? Wouldyou be like and then this is some
flutes, and then this is ohyes absolutely yes, so so yeah,
I could start maybe with the strings, and I would add a horn tune
(32:09):
on the top, and then Iwould and I had a flute at some
point. Yes, yes, differentis being layered gradually. Yes, it'd
be built that way. That wayalways actually, because I I had this,
I had this whole sampled orchestra towork with grad that sounds so fun.
(32:30):
It was fun. It was alot of fun. And then I
would I would send that to Inthis case too, when I sent it
to David, it would be sentvia a motorcycle because nothing was on the
internet. Oh my goodness, wow, yeah, anybody. If anybody cracked
into it, it would be allover the place. So look, this
(32:52):
is the music we'll be hearing soon, you know, And it wouldn't because
it was probably the piece that wedidn't use. You know. It must
be a huge appetite leak to musicfrom from filming, absolutely, but particularly
that one, I think, becausethere was such an expectation by the time
we got to film five and six. So a motorbike master motorcyclist would turn
(33:14):
over my door, I'd give hima drive and he'd take take it away
and to David he'd come back.Yes, no, you know, well
we could do that on the phone, of course. But and then once
we'd agreed on something that would beleft till near the end of the whole
(33:34):
process, right, so we geta build up of all all recorded electronically
on something called MIDI using media Idon't know if you've heard of MIDDI,
but it's just it's is just away of messaging what the sequences are so
that the computer knows what notes toplay. Really, but you can then
convert your middy into into into mediafile. The place then tells you what
(34:01):
notes to play. That's very easy, so that can be converted into a
score and then then you can youconvert you listen to the way the US
been played and you put in allthe dynamics, which is the louds and
soft and accents and all those bitsand pieces. So the the the instruments
(34:22):
already there, is already done onthe computer and the notes are there,
and that's pretty easy to to exchange. You have you have to be very
complicated, but you have to makesure the notes are bang on time and
in the right place, and soyou have to what's called quantize them,
(34:43):
which makes them fit exactly into theright space, so the computer knows,
oh, that's that's the second crop. I've got a crotch it four four
bar not not some odd note that'skind of slightly out of place. So
that's well, that's all sorted,and it's a bit of a job in
itself, and then an orchestrator willcome along and their job, which must
(35:09):
be hard, it's really hard,is they've already got all the notes,
they know what instruments are for,and then they had to listen carefully to
what I've actually done where I've playedit, because that's really important, the
actual performance I give. He givesit the sort of sense, the feeling,
(35:29):
and then she they put the dynamics, and then we all sit down
at the end in the studio hopingthat's worked out. And the MUSICI didn't
have the music on their stands,having been printed out by another company that
do that. And a conductor actuallyI worked with was the main orchestrator as
well as Alistair King, totally wonderfulguy, and he would conduct mostly.
(35:57):
He would conduct the orchestra, andI'd sit with David and we'd listen and
find a take we liked. We'dkeep that take, and then that would
be recalled, kept and put onthe film and mixed later. It's very
complicated, and the other thing,just to make it even more complicated is
in order to be able to doa very very precise mix at the end
(36:24):
when it was going on a film, they wanted all the instruments recorded separately.
So so well, you'd have thestrings, right, forty string players
that would be one, then thebrass and the horns and would wind,
and then the percussion. There wasa choir, the choir and it all.
(36:46):
What would happen is these amazing musicianswould well, whoever started off first
would just be on their own,and then the next one would have those
people in their headphones and they'd playto it, and so so you could
build it up again. It wasbuilt in layers. I'm sort of on
average? Or is this I mean, are they or is there a certain
(37:07):
length that you would have create apiece of music for. Is it sort
of two minutes? Is it sixminutes? Is it twelve minutes? Yeah,
well, I mean three and ahalf minutes average. I think there
aren't very many long pieces. Imean probably six to seven minutes would be
the longest. Yeah, yeah,generally speak yeah. And then do you
(37:29):
have do you have like a favoriteinstrument that you like to add into your
Is there one that you sort oflook forward to You're like, oh,
I'm going to put that a flutein because that's my favorite, or do
you not? After the flute wasprobably second cello? Cello. Why why
the cello, Well, my fatherwas a cellist. He was he was
very keen amateur cellist. Almost thebest kind of cellists father have because he
(37:53):
would play me all these all thislovely cello music and idea talk Tillier and
public as and the bark cello sweetsand so I had a lot of cello
music in my life when I wasyoung. But I think it also is
and it sings like a voice,and it covers emotionally, it covers so
(38:14):
such a wide variety of feeling.But generally it's a very emotional instrument.
So you will find you might thisis quite a bit of cello. Yeah,
I'm so not musically eared, LikeI don't even know what the right
just think lowist string instrument that singsout. Yeah, I wasn't thinking that.
(38:38):
So I guess do you have sortof slightly moving away from from Harry
Potter, but do you have anyadvice for anybody who wants to get into
sort of the music world when itcomes to sort of TV and film.
I'm guessing I'm guessing sort of composerslike right up there. But I guess
there's a few steps that you woulddo before composing films. Composing music for
(39:00):
Harry Pointer. Yes, I mean, I think just to getting into doing
films at all is a really trickyjourney. I would I can only talk
from what what happened to me iswhen when I got into films, it
was it was far less composers around, and it was just after the BBC
(39:22):
started opening their doors to other composersrather than they're in house composers. And
I wrote ten letters, I thinkwith very very because I've had quite a
career as both a guitarist and acomposer and even a conductor you know at
(39:46):
certain points. So but certainly theother two and I detailed that all down.
And you know, out of theten letters, I had three interviews
because I was already quite experienced.And out of those three interviews, somebody
wanted a guitar score. Me beinga guitarist brilliant, I can do that.
(40:07):
I can do that. So butI think my advice to everybody who's
asked me, because I get askeda lot, is get as wider variety
experience as you possibly can be ableto write in a wide variety of styles,
because what can happen is that youwill get You'll get a film because
(40:30):
somebody really likes your style, andthen when it comes to doing another film,
they're doing another film, they wanta different style and you can't do
it, so they go to someoneelse and you've lost them. Whereas what
I did, I developed friendship witha lot of directors that would then have
(40:50):
me back because I could do adifferent style for the different film. I
probably was a great iView even wantedsomebody really rocky poppy. I wasn't the
man, but I could do folky, I could do Jersey, I could
do you know, lots of differentclassical styles, modern and old and plastiche
(41:10):
and the rest of it. Iloved all that stuff, and I've done
lots of it, you know,played around with it until I was in
my thirties. So I'd say WIwide, wide breadths. The other thing
is to be able to write fastspeeders of the essence, because the faster
you can write, the sooner youcan find what you're really looking for.
(41:32):
Yeah, and how many so howmany instruments can you play? Just half
interest? Oh? Not really?No, I mean guitar, piano,
ukulele, banjo, mouth organ.Amazing. Well, I did. I
did play the chellow and the violinwhen I was young, but not not
(41:57):
to any not to any standard atall. But I guess like it's not
just about knowing how to play theinstrument for you for your job. It's
just sort of understanding an instrument aswell and the total So it's not having
to be a professional in every singleyes, and it is. It is
about rubbing shoulders with lots of othermusicians and it's a great part of those
(42:22):
recording experiences was going to the cafeat Abbey Road and meeting with the musicians
who are who were recording in thebreak and just chatting, and I found
out all sorts of stuff about whatwas working and why why what I was
doing was working, usually about whyit wasn't working. It was sometimes very
(42:52):
hard on the string players, makingthem play very very high mm hmm.
You could say, you can seeafter the third take they were sort of
beginning to think, you know,yeah, of course, you know,
they did it brilliantly and it waswork work, so and I could sing
(43:12):
as well, So yeah, Imean, I'm really jealous. I wish
I could sing and play more musicalinstruments. I think with my son,
I'm definitely going to get him intomusic because I just think it's just,
even on a casual basis, it'sjust so lovely that someone could sit down
at a piano or bring out aguitar and play some music. It's always
just such a lovely thing to beable to do. Get him into doing.
(43:38):
Take up the ukulele, one ofthe simplest instruments for small fingers.
It's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, that'strue. I think that ukulele. I
will tell husband. So, doyou have a favorite memory from your whole
time working on on Harry Potter?Probably I've got lots of them. I
(44:02):
mean, very very hard. Imean there's yeah, that's hard, that
one. I know everyone always saysthe same thing. Introduced more more on
the first film than the second,because the second was so such hard work
and it was just like went on, But of course it ended up being
(44:22):
Yeah, but in the first film, I would say the first thing that
came to my head was David Yatesand me at a bar somewhere in the
center of London with a pint inour hand. I think we did it.
(44:44):
Yeah, when we finished, itwas just at the moment I'll never
forget that must just be such anamazing, amazing feeling, not just because
it's great to the feeling of finishinga film, but also just working I
guess on something like Harry Potter andlike you said, you were a fan,
and I just feel like you musthave slept really well that night and
(45:06):
woken up in like a really goodmood, like, yes, yeah,
it was. It was very verygood, very good feeling. Yeah,
indeed. Yeah. And just lastly, your you're sort of but you've now
moved into writing novels. That's right, isn't it. You've taken a different
a change. Yes, yes,yeah, I was when I was working
(45:30):
on the second film, and I'mstruggling, but you know, getting there
in Abby Ray, just trying tocatch up with where we were, and
I just began to feel this wishthat I could just write my own story.
M hmm, because I was writingmusic for everybody else's stories and it
was time I wrote my own.And I wrote a novel about my daughter
(45:55):
who has got Sabella hypoplasia, whichmeans she's got a small, underdeveloped cerebellum,
which has affected everything in her life. And she's nineteen now, but
you know, she's still having towork hard. She can she can walk
and talk and write and do allsorts of things, but it's she's she's
earned every part of it. Sothat's that I wrote this book. It
(46:17):
was a fiction about that called Abovethe Void, and then I followed by
writing three detective novels about a detectivecalled Arnold who's an old duffer at the
end of his career and he justwants a peaceful life. And he was
an artist, a painter when hewas young, and then he went to
(46:40):
the police force because he wanted toeard money and have a safe life,
anything for a quiet life. Andit's he gets laed out of this into
the darkness where he has to hasto survive. And I'm very proud of
them. They are, you know, little bit rough at the edges,
(47:00):
but people who read them love them. It sounds sounds brilliant. When you're
writing novels, does music play anddoes music come into it? Do you
ever do you have sort of musicin your head whilst you're writing? Can
you escape your musical Oh? Yeah, the music does come in. It's
always a bit vague and not notterribly precise. But I've got something to
(47:22):
add, actually, if I may, at the end, because I've always
got up very early in the morning, and every morning since late November year
before last, I've got up andI've written a short piece of prose or
a poem for about fifteen minutes.Then I'm onto my piano and recorded an
(47:43):
improvisation that's fantastic. Wow. Andthey're out on the you can get them
on the on the internet. Youcan find dawnings they call dawnings. So
would that be what people would googledawnings Nicholas. Yeah, they did,
dawnings Nicholas who. They'll find them. They might even find my website,
which is unfortunately called word and Note, which nobody's going to remember. Well,
(48:07):
I can. I can link stuffin the podcast notes. I'm sure
people will love to listen and listento that. Listen link anyway. I'll
send you a link anyway, it'dbe great. I think that's all my
questions. And I always said,is there any is there anything really glaringly
obvious that you're like, I cannotbelieve she's not asked me that that is
(48:28):
a huge. Well, I mean, like I said, it was a
wonderful family feel to it. Dadhas to stand out as being quite an
extraordinary person, so kind considered everybody, as was Malfoy. Yeah, just
(48:50):
such a nice guy. No,have you ever had anybody where you've created,
Like I know, it's obviously thereis music for characters, like there's
a one you did for Malfoy,isn't there. Yeah, when you sort
of when they hear that, areyou always sort of thinking, I hope
it's not like this is this howthey're feeling the cat because I guess there's
a similar like there's a balance inthe music reflecting the character and what they're
(49:10):
bringing to the screen music. MM. That's quite a difficult question actually,
because of course Harry would be amain I've often wondered what Anna Rickman
sort of the snake music greater aroundand Rickman never really talked to him.
(49:31):
He was quite a shy character.I wonder what he thought, But you
don't because they do turn into thecharacter. You know. Umbradge, you
know, was definitely the most horrificallyirritating person that we've known, numberdges in
(49:53):
our lives. I think so thatwas Nicholas Hooper. Like we said,
I think in the podcast notes thereis the link to his Dawnings project,
which is brilliant, so definitely definitelycheck that out. I'm also like super
(50:13):
embarrassed because when I first obviously whenI speak to a guest, we have
a little chat before we start recording, just so I can explain a little
bit more about the podcast and justyou know, warm up a little bit.
And I felt it was right totell Nicholas that I had Grade four
clarinet, which now I just havelike embarrassment over the fact I felt the
(50:34):
need to tell him that, buthe was super lovely about it. But
I just feel a little bit embarrassedabout that anyway. So there's going to
be a couple weeks break now beforethe next episode, just because I think
some of you might know. Ihad a baby, a little baby girl
called Iris. So I haven't beenable to record over the last couple of
weeks because obviously I've been in theNewborn world. But be assured we will
(50:59):
be bad. I will definitely letyou know when I'm back, and if
you listen to the bonus episodes,the bonus episodes will continue, so please
carry on to carry on sending inyour questions. I absolutely love receiving them,
I love reading them. So yeah, I think that's everything for this
week and just want to say Ihave a brilliant week and we'll see you
(51:21):
in a couple of weeks time.Bye bye
Hello, and welcome to episode fourof Behind the wand my name's Flick Miles
and I was Emma Watson's double andHarry Potter films. In this podcast,
I speak to other people who workedon the films about their experience and what
life was like behind the scenes.I always am really interested. I start
(00:29):
every podcast with that little intro,but I don't know whether the same people
listening do I still need to doit. I don't know, but I'm
still doing it anyway. This weekwe have Nicholas Hooper on the podcast.
He was the composer for the fifthand sixth film, so The Order of
the Phoenix and The Half Blood Prince. It was so brilliant interviewing him.
(00:52):
I had very little musical knowledge orknowledge of what it takes to score a
film, so it was super interestinghearing his stories. And also he had
to score some really important moments likethe death of Sirius Black and the death
of Dumbledore, so I was reallyexcited to speak to him about that.
So you will hear us talking aboutthat a few little things. We talk
(01:15):
about David a lot in this episodebecause he is very good friends with David
Yates and had worked with David Yateson every single one of his projects,
bar one before Harry Potter. Soit does get a little bit confusing because
there's obviously David Hayman, but ifwe're just saying David, it's normally is
David Yates, and if we're talkingabout David Hayman, we'll say David Hayman.
(01:38):
And also, there is a beepingsound of my dishwasher alarm that like
sporadically goes off, so that ison the audio. I don't want anybody
being sent mad trying to find wherea beeping sounds coming from in their house
to find out it's actually on recording. So if you're hearing the odd beep,
that is from the recording. Anyway, let's get on with this week's
(01:59):
episode. I hope you enjoy it. So my first question, which hopefully
is an easy one, is canyou sort of outline what a composer does
when working in the film industry.Ah, well, there are various ways
of doing it. So from thepoint of view of a small film,
(02:21):
quite often the composer will get thefine cut or almost the fine cut of
the film and then maybe have amonth or a couple of weeks to come
up with music for it, andthat would be not a big job,
probably be done electronically mostly maybe oneinstrument, and then it will expand to
(02:43):
the composed being involved earlier on,sometimes even before filming or the rough cut
stage, and therefore it will bemuch more looking at different sequences and writing
music for that and developing themes.So it's a much longer process. And
in the case of a big filmlike Harry Potter, particularly for me and
(03:05):
David working on a big film togetherfor the first time, we really got
in a year before it needed tobe recorded, and so that's a long
process of working with theme stories.I'd sell you on the drama front because
I did start off doing nature filmsand now well from the two thousands I
(03:30):
was doing dramas. Mostly that itwas very important to read the script.
So I would not take on adrama without reading the script because sometimes i'd
read the script now I'd say,I know where this is going, I'm
not very interested, and I wouldn'tdo it. So I liked the story
(03:53):
was absolutely tuned about for me,and I think probably for lots of film
composers. You need to be thrilledby the story really inspired by it in
order to actually come up with thegoods. Well, yeah, absolutely.
I guess if it's something that you'renot interested in, it's hard to feel
creative about it. I can sitaway. So he sort of said,
you'd worked with David Yates before?Yes? So did he just sort of
(04:17):
how did it? How did hefirst bring up Harry Potter to you?
Did he just approach you and sayI'm doing this and I'd love you to
come on board? And was thatthe beginning of the journey for you to
Yes? Well, of course wework right from when he was a student
way back in the nineties and thendone everything except one film called Sex Traffic
(04:38):
because it had to have to bea Canadian composer. So we just done
The Girl in the Cafe with BillNye, which a lovely little film.
And I hadn't heard from a bit. And I was walking along pavement in
Whitney, my local town, andhe said, Nick, I got Harry
(05:00):
Potter stripped over the raised bit ofpayment in front of me. I couldn't
believe it. I couldn't believe itbecause also because he I had always sort
of him as a sort of quitea sick. Well, I'm not saying
how imports serious, but he'd donemore of the fringe films will be very
successful. They've been very successful,and I think looking back, he was
(05:24):
a brilliant choice because he really wastaking it in away from the sort of
blockbuster direction into something more serious asactually the stories also get deeper and darker.
So I probably said too much,so I agree, and I was
(05:46):
absolutely true. So there we were. He just asked me to do it,
and then it was just a caseof persuading Warner Brothers that it was
a good idea to take a riskon a posa they'd never really seen before
do a big film. And wedid it very, very gradually by finding
(06:09):
all the best sort of bits ofbig orchestral music I've done before, quite
a lot from them from animal fromnatural history films, and then we actually
we did this is the earliest piecewe did for that, for the Order
of the Phoenix. I had thestoryboard. I noticed you work the storyboard
(06:30):
writer, the same guy I gota storyboard of Harry's entrance into the Ministry
of Magic, right, yeah,And it's just something that would start small
and swells to something huge. Andthat was the first piece of music I
wrote, and we actually recorded itin every road. It's totally thrilling.
(06:56):
Well, I'm not sure. Ithink I might well have been more or
less on board, but you knowit was just a demonstration of what I
could do, and that was it. We were we were in. So
you'd seen that, I mean,had you read the Harry Potter books,
had you seen the films? Wereyou coming to it fresh or you sort
of were aware of the previous four? Well, to start off with us
Harry Potter fan so from the ninetieswas a friend of mine said, have
(07:23):
you seen this book, Harry?It's amazing. And she was a writer
herself and she said, just amazingwriting. And as I've always been interested
in stories and writing, I pickedit up and then I was hooked.
So I was hooked with the bookscompletely from where I go. I'd get
them out as soon as they Iget by them, as soon as they
came out. Everyone. So thefilms. When I first saw the first
(07:50):
one, as I was outraged becauseI wanted to do it, I had,
I had to confess say it wasjob really, who is you know?
Phenomenal and be you know that therewas no way I was going to
do it, so I thought,well, I sort of put a wish
up there that maybe one day i'ddo it. So how does your process
(08:13):
work? So you said you youhad about a year working on Was that
the same for the fifth and thesixth? The year you sort of breezed
through from one year to the next. Were the fifth we took a year
over, I think probably partly becausewe were we needed to find our way.
Yeah. Of course we were goingwell away from the John Williams type
(08:33):
of style, so we changed thestyle both of them, his directing and
from my writing. And so whenhe came to the second one, we
did wonder whether by the end therewas a sort of fatigue setting in or
we worried that there was. Actuallyit wasn't adrenaline, but I think we
(08:58):
decided to make it a bit shorter, so it was more like six months.
Yeah, And actually it was reallyhard at the end because things were
changing so rapidly with the film thatI was struggling to keep up. Yeah,
but I managed anido. It's veryfunny that film would be when it
(09:24):
has to be the best film I'veever written, where the best music school
I've ever done? Would be thehalfl the plnce in my opinion. Yeah,
so's the first step you reading thescript? Then is that how it
worked? And then do you haveconversations with David and then go up and
sort of start putting stuff together.How does it? How does it work?
(09:46):
And how does it then work ina team? I guess there's you
and so that's I guess two questions. What's your process and then what does
the team look like? Yes?And how does it work? Well,
it's very interesting because it's thinking back. Lots of conversation with David early on
and we would meet he he usedto live in the next village to me
in Oxfordshire, but he was oftencoming down from London at that point of
(10:11):
course, but we would meet andtalk early on and maybe come up with
some ideas. But also both DavidBarron and David Hayman were very involved as
well. They have a lot ofinput and they were incredibly encouraging and supportive.
You know, it's not the usualexperience I think of doing blockbusters.
(10:35):
You probably experienced it yourself. Itwas a real family, really well well
supported feeling to it. So therewould be that there would be the point
where we started getting rushes, andsometimes David let me see some of the
rushes and even even send a veryvery you know, a very early cut
(11:00):
of something for me to try trysome themes. So for instance, you
know, I might I might getsomething like that and this I can remember
it more in the first one ofall the Phoenix that I'd get to get
a cut, and then I wouldwrite, what has about six ideas?
(11:22):
Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, But I was a fast writer.
I'm a sort of throw the paintof the wall, see what happens kind
a composer. And I remember theUmbradge one in particular. It was that
I did six and when I wasgetting to the end, I thought,
(11:45):
let's try something completely off the wall. You won't like this at all.
I could never tell with David,for sure, you know, because he
was always he was thinking so manydimensions at once, the completely bruant guy,
you know, extraordinary. Yeah,but I guess that's a great thing
(12:09):
for you that you can give somany, like, so many options like
that. Yes, that was mytechnique. I mean even before Potter,
it was my technique to give themoptions. It was my way of finding
my way in actually as well,because you know, a director can't tell
you what to write. It's onething they can't do. Actually, they're
(12:31):
really there's only one director I've metwho who had who was a musician,
and that was nice. But thatgood thing or a bad thing? Is
it? In this case it wasYes, it was James Halles, who's
really coming on now as the director. You've probably heard of him. But
(12:54):
they're all very musical. But butI have to find a language, a
way of what is going on intheir brain. And sometimes yes, so
there is the business of giving themlots of choices. Yeah, then gradually
holding things down till we begin tonarrow things down to something that's really working
(13:16):
for the whole film. And sometimeswe think something was really good and then
later on to say no, thatwe need something different. Yeah, was
that? So? I guess arethere any sort of I don't know if
the words like phrases or terms orthat sort of David, I mean David
Jakes, David Homan, and DavidBarron, all the David gave you in
terms of the films, Like we'vealways sort of said that they're definitely get
(13:39):
darker as they go on, especiallyHalfler Prints obviously but then I'd say,
like when I listen to the music, there is also lightness in it,
so there's you know, it's notit's not always dark and sinister. Can
you remember sort of any specific thingsthat they were sort of hoping to get
from from the score, Well,I mean the one of've there be another
(14:05):
podcast as well, because it's themost it's the most popular piece of music
I've written, which is The Dumbledore'sFarewell. And the word was dig deep,
dig deeper, dig deeper, Andit took it took really a long
(14:26):
time to come up with something that'sactually very simple. Ah, But that
that was one because they just wantedme to dig to the deepest sadness I
could find to bring that through,So that that was the sad one.
I think with the Journey down theRiver in the first one with the Order
(14:48):
of the Phoenix, that was muchmore about we need more energy, we
need more excitement, we need moreand that was quite a quite tricky one
to get right in the Yeah,and then I think with some give the
first one, the Dementors on theUnderpass, Yeah, that kept on comedia
(15:11):
it darker, but can we makethe bit where he does the lighter well,
that's the Yeah. I mean,I was actually just thinking about because
actually, for you had two verypoignant moments in when Serious Black dies and
when Dumbledore dies, which you knoware absolutely heartbreaking moments. And also we
(15:35):
hadn't really I guess, like CedricDiggery at the end of the fourth we
hadn't actually had like a big momentin terms of like death that with.
But then I was like, Iwas listening. I was listening to them
the other the other day, andit's I mean, it's quite a challenge
because especially with Serious and it's obviouslylike this whole fight going on, and
(15:56):
there's the drama of it, andthen it's suddenly goes to sort of him
dying in front of Harry and theSlowMo. So they must be quite challenging.
There must be a pressure to sortof score that those moments, but
also quite a challenge to have thatlike juxtaposition of action action, action and
then real heartbreak. Yes, andwhat I'm saying, I'm not sure I
(16:17):
do understand. And actually the twoare very different. I think the two
deaths because the first one was ashock. It's a shock, isn't it
because you're not expecting it it's outof the blue, somebody's dead, somebody's
just going back into the veil andhe's gone. And the we did try
(16:37):
you know, some big music barbersI dang you, you know that sort
of thing, but gradually pulled itright back, so it's terribly gentle and
rather sad leaving it really very muchto the acting. Harry's acting, yeah,
or Damn's acting, as might callit, and just fabulous. I
(16:59):
mean, Dan was so amazing inthat film. Whereis his eyes? And
I looked at his eyes a lot, and that really helped. What's interesting
is that the the big moment forCyrus's death in a way, or the
big emotional moment is is when whenHarry expels Voldemort from his head. Yeah,
(17:23):
fight was doumbledore ye, which Icall possession, one of my favorite
pieces actually I've ever ever wrote.And that is where, in a way,
all the emotion comes out. Mit's the emotional piece O. Yeah,
film, I think so it's it'sa delayed reaction in a way.
(17:45):
And I've been given that permission,you know, after all that stuff.
And initially we didn't score the fighteither, remember it was just sound effects.
We did look into it. Wedisappinted that actually was better to have
bish ban bongi and then just gointo this into into and it really worked
because I could have scored it,but it would just be like another scored
(18:07):
fight. Yeah yeah, yeah,you sort of want, like I said,
I think I said, but likeyou want a bit of light and
shade with the natural sound and thenthe scored moment. Yeah. So do
you have a favorite scored end?Yeah, it is the half Blood Prince
and actually coming to the Dumbodare's deathand that it was interesting because that was
(18:32):
a gradual build quite a few minutes, and it's actually it's run on it's
run on this machine. It's almostlike a musical. It's like Beethoven,
sort of building up, building up, building up gradually gradually, then leaving
a gap again and then bang,he's dead. Then it's all the bag
bag bang that got to dash afterHarry and it's all just fury. And
(18:55):
then of course once again the bigemotional moment comes when they find them in
the courtyard doubledore. Yeah. Yeah, so again it's delayed, it seems
true. So do you kind ofhave I guess you have that thought process
then when you are scoring that you're, like you said, you're not laying
it all on the line in thoseexact moments where Dumbledore dies, because you
(19:18):
sort of know that there's some afterit's going to be, you know,
the bit where they will hold upthere once that's that's actually maybe I guess
that's how you have to assess it, Like, which is the point where
you need the crescendo of heartbreak?I guess yeah, flex yes, I
think that's absolutely right. And whatDavid was very good at and what he
taught me and anybody else did thatyou don't have to you know, you
(19:42):
don't have to reinforce what the audienceis already saying. You need to be
giving them something else, and don'ttell them what to think because they don't
like it, you know, itcan you know, over gilding the lily,
making it all you know? ActuallyI was think, yeah, it's
a bit of a turn off.Really, it's distracting me from the film.
(20:04):
So it's all about the film really, But then for some odd reason,
the music lives on its own afterwardsand it's a strange thing. But
absolutely don't just just don't hit onthe nail. He never liked me hitting
things on the nail. Yeah,And then so when you I mean not
(20:26):
to be negative, but is thereanything that you when you've watched back since
you thought, oh I do thatslightly different or I think I could have
done gone in a different direction withthat, and maybe it would have worked.
Well, it's difficult now. Imean, I think probably if I'd
done the Order of Phoenix after theHalf Blood Prince, I would have made
it more monothematic, because the greatthing about the Half Blood Princes is actually
(20:51):
this this piece that goes through itstarts. It started as a piece called
in Nocktown. If you heard theCD, it's on the front and it's
required and we couldn't use it becausethe thing it was written for was taken
out the classing it. But itwas the first piece I wrote for that
film, and but we used itas the DNA for the whole score.
(21:15):
So it underscores everything. It justkeeps appearing. It. It appears every
time you see Dumbledore. It appearson the Journey of the Cave, that's
the biggest expression of it, andthen it appears on the cello at Dumbledorees
when you know, at Dumble's farewellso I would like to have perhaps done
(21:37):
another score that was like that,but the way that score happened was so
inexplicable. I'm not sure I couldhave done. I'm not I'm not a
person who writes, you know,in a very organized way. I'm organized
enough, but you know it,I think that would be one thing that
(22:00):
I love. I don't because Ithink the order Pen's is a lovely score
and I like it a lot,but it thematically, it's it's more varied,
it's bit of that way. Yeah, I'm trying to think of anything
else. I think there were justone or two places where I like to
have been a bit more punchy maybe, But you know, I think my
(22:23):
strength is in in the emotional yeah, rather than in the action, if
you like. I was about tosay, do you have a favorite?
Do you prefer those, like wesaid, potentially darker, more heavy moments
to the the lighter moments. Doyou prefer to score those moments more?
(22:45):
Yeah? I mean, I'm veryhappy to go for emotional beauty as well,
So you know, I love scoringsomething like that. There's were some
places in the film for those sortsof bits of beauty as well. Yeah.
Having said that I'm thinking back.You know, there were one or
two things I really enjoyed doing,like this the quidditch match in where I
(23:11):
took John Williams's three note sting thathe had for quidditch and then turned into
something that sounded a bit like Stravinsky. And I really enjoyed that hugely,
and it somehow it came alive ofits own accord. Yeah. The Ones
Who Are Fireworks is another one thatjust sort of Fireworks is one of my
favorites. I love I love thatpiece of music. It's just got a
(23:36):
real I guess this is so ridiculous, say, but it's just a real
magical element to it, like justa rhythm through it, which I really
really enjoy So I guess it's quiteSo. Did you sort of have any
intentions and obviously we'd have John Williamsdo the first three films. Did you
want to keep some continuity to thator were you keen to just take it
(24:00):
in a different direction? How?How how does it feel like? How
does it work when you're taking overon the same franchise from somebody from somebody
else? Yes? Terrifying, Imean yeah, I can imagine. I
was also terribly pleased, and Iwas going to learn to write like John
Williams, I thought. But wetried a bit going in that direction,
(24:25):
but found that it wasn't really mystyle and I wouldn't do it as well
as he would. Who would really, So I think David was quite keen
to taking a different direction as well, So we just said, do what
I do. Yes, that's whatI did. You know. It was,
(24:48):
yeah, that's but I think that'slike perfect, And I actually think
it was such a good decision becausethe film's just mature so much over the
over the series. You know,if you think about the first I would
say, think about the first twovery and none of these things I think
a negative, but it's a veryglossy, bright picture, you know,
(25:11):
magical. Then the third one weobviously take a darker tone, and they
slowly get darker. And I actuallythink it would have been detrimental to the
films if they hadn't have kept evolvingkey members of the crew, like the
director, composer, because also alot of people were growing up as well
watching the films and they needed thosedifferent elements. And you know, so
(25:33):
I feel like you can appreciate eachfilm and everyone who works in individually,
but also appreciate the evolution of HarryPotter from you watch the first one,
you watched the last one, thejourney that you go on, and you
know, the music for the firstfilm would not necessarily be the right vibe
for the fifth, sixth, seventhyear. No, not even from the
(25:56):
third really, which is the thirdfavor to the first three scores. No,
but anyway, I can do it. I didn't have that skill.
I got my own skills, butI didn't have that sort of amazingly detailed
orchestral zooming about skill that John Williamshas. So yeah, you're right,
(26:23):
and I think I think I thinkwe did exactly the right thing. And
I think what's extraordinary about it isthat I can't think of any other film
series where that's quite happened, wherethe film has grown up with the actors
and the audience. So you're watchinga children's film gradually telling to a young
(26:47):
youth film into an older youth film. It's really quite an adult film Lord
of the Rings sort of style atthe end. You know, Yeah,
definitely, it's very interesting that hAnd I think that's great. And I
was also thinking, if you thinkabout the story. The pivotal point.
(27:07):
It's just it was when in thegraveyard, when Digger is killed, that's
the point, that's the return ofYeah, properly. So everything pivots on
that point. And what was thegenius of David Hayman? I think,
who is the genius behind the wholeseries? JK. Rowling was was you
(27:33):
must have seen you know, thishas just changed. Everything's different now.
Yeah. The end of that filmis just where it's awful. Yeah.
Yeah, and then yeah, youhave to pick straight back up off that
once it turns back corner. There'sno going back. Is there no going
back? There's knowing back, goingback. The whole thing is now going
(27:53):
darker and darker. There's no wayback. Yeah, I think, I
think, I think I have tosay David Hayman is just extraordinary. And
I think back at back at whathe managed and how and how he has
this childish playfulness in him and yethe can go very dark and he's he's
got all the sort of shades ofwhat's needed. Yeah. Absolutely. Was
(28:18):
there any other sort of you know, films or anything that sort of inspired
you that you'd seen sort of thoughtall that. I like that sort of
vibe and sound that you brought toHarry Potter or do you not work like?
Is that just not how you howyou'd work else? Well, I
mean I took going back to bepre Potter. I'm just trying to think
(28:44):
what I Wasn't a great film person? Really not not a huge one of
the films I loved, you know, I don't really think they are.
They would apply the Deer Hunter,you know, what's a phenomenal film.
Maybe that has got some of thethat's got the darkness in it, hasn't
it. Yeah, I'm going toremember something at the end. Probably I
(29:11):
can't. I can't think of whatwas coming just before it? Would it
would have instanced be I mean,obviously if someone John warning Williams's scores I
heard before were fantastic. There wasone called I think The Pale Rider.
I think it was. It wasa Clint Eastwood directed film. It's quite
extraordinary. Was it's really I can'tremember. Wonderful school and I thought I'd
(29:34):
love to write a school like that. Yeah, very different from the Potter
schools. Yeah, and did youhave any conversations with John Williams or was
it do you just not work likethat because you don't want that influence.
And it's actually a clean, abetter to have sort of a I think
I sort of I would have likedto have had one, but I got
(29:56):
the impression nobody really to organize it. Yeah, yeah, so and I
think, you know, he wasbusy, and I think it would have
just been I can't good luck ofcourse, I mean, yeah, I
get it. And also, likeyou said, you really have to take
(30:19):
it in your own direction, andI think that's the best thing. There
was no point anything to do animitation of what before said. It needs
to keep moving and its own directionas the story does, so just to
really like break it down, whichagain this is probably going to sound really
unmusical minded. That so when youfirst have an idea, what you do
(30:41):
do you set at a piano andwrite something and and then you take it
to an orchestra and then you'd playit and record. Like how if you
break it down, what are thesort of states the technical stuff it's I
had a keyboard attached to a computer, so I mean way back in the
eighties. I worked late eighties.When I started, I worked out how
(31:03):
to use samples because that's all Iwas going to have the money for.
So I was using samplers with akeyboard and a computer. It's called programming
really, but it's I'm playing thepiano or the piano keyboard and putting stuff
in as I think of it,and maybe building it up in layers.
So I'd have a little tune ormaybe a chord sequence are put in first,
(31:27):
and then there would be another bitsto add on the top, and
maybe something else. Layer it upin bits and pieces until there was something
that sounded like like sort of pieceof music it should be for that.
I think once the first layer gonedown, that was the really throwing the
(31:48):
paint of the wall, and thenthe other layers sort of had to follow
that pattern. When you're saying layer, Sorry again, this might be really
question when you're saying layering, isit all the sound of the keyboard or
you layering or sound different? Wouldyou be like and then this is some
flutes, and then this is ohyes absolutely yes, so so yeah,
I could start maybe with the strings, and I would add a horn tune
(32:09):
on the top, and then Iwould and I had a flute at some
point. Yes, yes, differentis being layered gradually. Yes, it'd
be built that way. That wayalways actually, because I I had this,
I had this whole sampled orchestra towork with grad that sounds so fun.
(32:30):
It was fun. It was alot of fun. And then I
would I would send that to Inthis case too, when I sent it
to David, it would be sentvia a motorcycle because nothing was on the
internet. Oh my goodness, wow, yeah, anybody. If anybody cracked
into it, it would be allover the place. So look, this
(32:52):
is the music we'll be hearing soon, you know, And it wouldn't because
it was probably the piece that wedidn't use. You know. It must
be a huge appetite leak to musicfrom from filming, absolutely, but particularly
that one, I think, becausethere was such an expectation by the time
we got to film five and six. So a motorbike master motorcyclist would turn
(33:14):
over my door, I'd give hima drive and he'd take take it away
and to David he'd come back.Yes, no, you know, well
we could do that on the phone, of course. But and then once
we'd agreed on something that would beleft till near the end of the whole
(33:34):
process, right, so we geta build up of all all recorded electronically
on something called MIDI using media Idon't know if you've heard of MIDDI,
but it's just it's is just away of messaging what the sequences are so
that the computer knows what notes toplay. Really, but you can then
convert your middy into into into mediafile. The place then tells you what
(34:01):
notes to play. That's very easy, so that can be converted into a
score and then then you can youconvert you listen to the way the US
been played and you put in allthe dynamics, which is the louds and
soft and accents and all those bitsand pieces. So the the the instruments
(34:22):
already there, is already done onthe computer and the notes are there,
and that's pretty easy to to exchange. You have you have to be very
complicated, but you have to makesure the notes are bang on time and
in the right place, and soyou have to what's called quantize them,
(34:43):
which makes them fit exactly into theright space, so the computer knows,
oh, that's that's the second crop. I've got a crotch it four four
bar not not some odd note that'skind of slightly out of place. So
that's well, that's all sorted,and it's a bit of a job in
itself, and then an orchestrator willcome along and their job, which must
(35:09):
be hard, it's really hard,is they've already got all the notes,
they know what instruments are for,and then they had to listen carefully to
what I've actually done where I've playedit, because that's really important, the
actual performance I give. He givesit the sort of sense, the feeling,
(35:29):
and then she they put the dynamics, and then we all sit down
at the end in the studio hopingthat's worked out. And the MUSICI didn't
have the music on their stands,having been printed out by another company that
do that. And a conductor actuallyI worked with was the main orchestrator as
well as Alistair King, totally wonderfulguy, and he would conduct mostly.
(35:57):
He would conduct the orchestra, andI'd sit with David and we'd listen and
find a take we liked. We'dkeep that take, and then that would
be recalled, kept and put onthe film and mixed later. It's very
complicated, and the other thing,just to make it even more complicated is
in order to be able to doa very very precise mix at the end
(36:24):
when it was going on a film, they wanted all the instruments recorded separately.
So so well, you'd have thestrings, right, forty string players
that would be one, then thebrass and the horns and would wind,
and then the percussion. There wasa choir, the choir and it all.
(36:46):
What would happen is these amazing musicianswould well, whoever started off first
would just be on their own,and then the next one would have those
people in their headphones and they'd playto it, and so so you could
build it up again. It wasbuilt in layers. I'm sort of on
average? Or is this I mean, are they or is there a certain
(37:07):
length that you would have create apiece of music for. Is it sort
of two minutes? Is it sixminutes? Is it twelve minutes? Yeah,
well, I mean three and ahalf minutes average. I think there
aren't very many long pieces. Imean probably six to seven minutes would be
the longest. Yeah, yeah,generally speak yeah. And then do you
(37:29):
have do you have like a favoriteinstrument that you like to add into your
Is there one that you sort oflook forward to You're like, oh,
I'm going to put that a flutein because that's my favorite, or do
you not? After the flute wasprobably second cello? Cello. Why why
the cello, Well, my fatherwas a cellist. He was he was
very keen amateur cellist. Almost thebest kind of cellists father have because he
(37:53):
would play me all these all thislovely cello music and idea talk Tillier and
public as and the bark cello sweetsand so I had a lot of cello
music in my life when I wasyoung. But I think it also is
and it sings like a voice,and it covers emotionally, it covers so
(38:14):
such a wide variety of feeling.But generally it's a very emotional instrument.
So you will find you might thisis quite a bit of cello. Yeah,
I'm so not musically eared, LikeI don't even know what the right
just think lowist string instrument that singsout. Yeah, I wasn't thinking that.
(38:38):
So I guess do you have sortof slightly moving away from from Harry
Potter, but do you have anyadvice for anybody who wants to get into
sort of the music world when itcomes to sort of TV and film.
I'm guessing I'm guessing sort of composerslike right up there. But I guess
there's a few steps that you woulddo before composing films. Composing music for
(39:00):
Harry Pointer. Yes, I mean, I think just to getting into doing
films at all is a really trickyjourney. I would I can only talk
from what what happened to me iswhen when I got into films, it
was it was far less composers around, and it was just after the BBC
(39:22):
started opening their doors to other composersrather than they're in house composers. And
I wrote ten letters, I thinkwith very very because I've had quite a
career as both a guitarist and acomposer and even a conductor you know at
(39:46):
certain points. So but certainly theother two and I detailed that all down.
And you know, out of theten letters, I had three interviews
because I was already quite experienced.And out of those three interviews, somebody
wanted a guitar score. Me beinga guitarist brilliant, I can do that.
(40:07):
I can do that. So butI think my advice to everybody who's
asked me, because I get askeda lot, is get as wider variety
experience as you possibly can be ableto write in a wide variety of styles,
because what can happen is that youwill get You'll get a film because
(40:30):
somebody really likes your style, andthen when it comes to doing another film,
they're doing another film, they wanta different style and you can't do
it, so they go to someoneelse and you've lost them. Whereas what
I did, I developed friendship witha lot of directors that would then have
(40:50):
me back because I could do adifferent style for the different film. I
probably was a great iView even wantedsomebody really rocky poppy. I wasn't the
man, but I could do folky, I could do Jersey, I could
do you know, lots of differentclassical styles, modern and old and plastiche
(41:10):
and the rest of it. Iloved all that stuff, and I've done
lots of it, you know,played around with it until I was in
my thirties. So I'd say WIwide, wide breadths. The other thing
is to be able to write fastspeeders of the essence, because the faster
you can write, the sooner youcan find what you're really looking for.
(41:32):
Yeah, and how many so howmany instruments can you play? Just half
interest? Oh? Not really?No, I mean guitar, piano,
ukulele, banjo, mouth organ.Amazing. Well, I did. I
did play the chellow and the violinwhen I was young, but not not
(41:57):
to any not to any standard atall. But I guess like it's not
just about knowing how to play theinstrument for you for your job. It's
just sort of understanding an instrument aswell and the total So it's not having
to be a professional in every singleyes, and it is. It is
about rubbing shoulders with lots of othermusicians and it's a great part of those
(42:22):
recording experiences was going to the cafeat Abbey Road and meeting with the musicians
who are who were recording in thebreak and just chatting, and I found
out all sorts of stuff about whatwas working and why why what I was
doing was working, usually about whyit wasn't working. It was sometimes very
(42:52):
hard on the string players, makingthem play very very high mm hmm.
You could say, you can seeafter the third take they were sort of
beginning to think, you know,yeah, of course, you know,
they did it brilliantly and it waswork work, so and I could sing
(43:12):
as well, So yeah, Imean, I'm really jealous. I wish
I could sing and play more musicalinstruments. I think with my son,
I'm definitely going to get him intomusic because I just think it's just,
even on a casual basis, it'sjust so lovely that someone could sit down
at a piano or bring out aguitar and play some music. It's always
just such a lovely thing to beable to do. Get him into doing.
(43:38):
Take up the ukulele, one ofthe simplest instruments for small fingers.
It's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, that'strue. I think that ukulele. I
will tell husband. So, doyou have a favorite memory from your whole
time working on on Harry Potter?Probably I've got lots of them. I
(44:02):
mean, very very hard. Imean there's yeah, that's hard, that
one. I know everyone always saysthe same thing. Introduced more more on
the first film than the second,because the second was so such hard work
and it was just like went on, But of course it ended up being
(44:22):
Yeah, but in the first film, I would say the first thing that
came to my head was David Yatesand me at a bar somewhere in the
center of London with a pint inour hand. I think we did it.
(44:44):
Yeah, when we finished, itwas just at the moment I'll never
forget that must just be such anamazing, amazing feeling, not just because
it's great to the feeling of finishinga film, but also just working I
guess on something like Harry Potter andlike you said, you were a fan,
and I just feel like you musthave slept really well that night and
(45:06):
woken up in like a really goodmood, like, yes, yeah,
it was. It was very verygood, very good feeling. Yeah,
indeed. Yeah. And just lastly, your you're sort of but you've now
moved into writing novels. That's right, isn't it. You've taken a different
a change. Yes, yes,yeah, I was when I was working
(45:30):
on the second film, and I'mstruggling, but you know, getting there
in Abby Ray, just trying tocatch up with where we were, and
I just began to feel this wishthat I could just write my own story.
M hmm, because I was writingmusic for everybody else's stories and it
was time I wrote my own.And I wrote a novel about my daughter
(45:55):
who has got Sabella hypoplasia, whichmeans she's got a small, underdeveloped cerebellum,
which has affected everything in her life. And she's nineteen now, but
you know, she's still having towork hard. She can she can walk
and talk and write and do allsorts of things, but it's she's she's
earned every part of it. Sothat's that I wrote this book. It
(46:17):
was a fiction about that called Abovethe Void, and then I followed by
writing three detective novels about a detectivecalled Arnold who's an old duffer at the
end of his career and he justwants a peaceful life. And he was
an artist, a painter when hewas young, and then he went to
(46:40):
the police force because he wanted toeard money and have a safe life,
anything for a quiet life. Andit's he gets laed out of this into
the darkness where he has to hasto survive. And I'm very proud of
them. They are, you know, little bit rough at the edges,
(47:00):
but people who read them love them. It sounds sounds brilliant. When you're
writing novels, does music play anddoes music come into it? Do you
ever do you have sort of musicin your head whilst you're writing? Can
you escape your musical Oh? Yeah, the music does come in. It's
always a bit vague and not notterribly precise. But I've got something to
(47:22):
add, actually, if I may, at the end, because I've always
got up very early in the morning, and every morning since late November year
before last, I've got up andI've written a short piece of prose or
a poem for about fifteen minutes.Then I'm onto my piano and recorded an
(47:43):
improvisation that's fantastic. Wow. Andthey're out on the you can get them
on the on the internet. Youcan find dawnings they call dawnings. So
would that be what people would googledawnings Nicholas. Yeah, they did,
dawnings Nicholas who. They'll find them. They might even find my website,
which is unfortunately called word and Note, which nobody's going to remember. Well,
(48:07):
I can. I can link stuffin the podcast notes. I'm sure
people will love to listen and listento that. Listen link anyway. I'll
send you a link anyway, it'dbe great. I think that's all my
questions. And I always said,is there any is there anything really glaringly
obvious that you're like, I cannotbelieve she's not asked me that that is
(48:28):
a huge. Well, I mean, like I said, it was a
wonderful family feel to it. Dadhas to stand out as being quite an
extraordinary person, so kind considered everybody, as was Malfoy. Yeah, just
(48:50):
such a nice guy. No,have you ever had anybody where you've created,
Like I know, it's obviously thereis music for characters, like there's
a one you did for Malfoy,isn't there. Yeah, when you sort
of when they hear that, areyou always sort of thinking, I hope
it's not like this is this howthey're feeling the cat because I guess there's
a similar like there's a balance inthe music reflecting the character and what they're
(49:10):
bringing to the screen music. MM. That's quite a difficult question actually,
because of course Harry would be amain I've often wondered what Anna Rickman
sort of the snake music greater aroundand Rickman never really talked to him.
(49:31):
He was quite a shy character.I wonder what he thought, But you
don't because they do turn into thecharacter. You know. Umbradge, you
know, was definitely the most horrificallyirritating person that we've known, numberdges in
(49:53):
our lives. I think so thatwas Nicholas Hooper. Like we said,
I think in the podcast notes thereis the link to his Dawnings project,
which is brilliant, so definitely definitelycheck that out. I'm also like super
(50:13):
embarrassed because when I first obviously whenI speak to a guest, we have
a little chat before we start recording, just so I can explain a little
bit more about the podcast and justyou know, warm up a little bit.
And I felt it was right totell Nicholas that I had Grade four
clarinet, which now I just havelike embarrassment over the fact I felt the
(50:34):
need to tell him that, buthe was super lovely about it. But
I just feel a little bit embarrassedabout that anyway. So there's going to
be a couple weeks break now beforethe next episode, just because I think
some of you might know. Ihad a baby, a little baby girl
called Iris. So I haven't beenable to record over the last couple of
weeks because obviously I've been in theNewborn world. But be assured we will
(50:59):
be bad. I will definitely letyou know when I'm back, and if
you listen to the bonus episodes,the bonus episodes will continue, so please
carry on to carry on sending inyour questions. I absolutely love receiving them,
I love reading them. So yeah, I think that's everything for this
week and just want to say Ihave a brilliant week and we'll see you
(51:21):
in a couple of weeks time.Bye bye
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
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