April 21, 2026 • 30 mins
Recorded live on the floor at ReMA 2026 in Las Vegas, this special edition of Cliff's Notes officially announces Project 74 — Tungco's Urban Mining Initiative and a landmark partnership with Victor Fox of the Chem-Met Company and Furkhat Faizulla of Syram Corporation, built on one powerful premise: converting domestic tungsten scrap into sodium tungstate, the critical intermediate chemical that nearly 100% of all tungsten products must pass through before becoming a finished part, and keeping those strategic units inside the United States.
Cliff, Victor, and Furkhat break down why tungsten has surged 5x in price over the last eight months, how China's export restrictions and zero domestic primary production have created a historic supply squeeze, where tungsten shows up across tool steels, defense, AI chip manufacturing, drone components, and TSA security equipment, and why Project 74's reshoring mission — expanding U.S. processing capacity for scrap that would otherwise leave the country — is exactly what the American industrial base needs right now.
Learn more about Tungco at www.tungco.com.
Learn about Project 74 at www.project74.com
Hosted by Cliff Nance of Tungco — where hard work meets honest talk about leadership, innovation, and what it takes to build something that lasts.
Cliff, Victor, and Furkhat break down why tungsten has surged 5x in price over the last eight months, how China's export restrictions and zero domestic primary production have created a historic supply squeeze, where tungsten shows up across tool steels, defense, AI chip manufacturing, drone components, and TSA security equipment, and why Project 74's reshoring mission — expanding U.S. processing capacity for scrap that would otherwise leave the country — is exactly what the American industrial base needs right now.
Learn more about Tungco at www.tungco.com.
Learn about Project 74 at www.project74.com
Hosted by Cliff Nance of Tungco — where hard work meets honest talk about leadership, innovation, and what it takes to build something that lasts.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Cliff Snows, Cliff Snows.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
All right, welcome to an episode of Cliffs Notes podcast.
We are live at Rima. How's everybody doing out there?
Did you lose any money last night?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Victor? I won money? Last night?
Speaker 4 (00:31):
You won money? How about are you up?
Speaker 5 (00:33):
I'm up about eight hundred bucks. Come home, Dad for
about a stake tonight? Oh?
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Are you buying a baby? Okay?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
All right, well we'll keep that in mind forad. How
you doing, Buddy, I'm doing good. Yeah, all right, it's.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Good to have. Good to have you guys in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I want to give a shout out to Rima for
all the hard work they're doing and for providing a.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Platform for Cliff's Notes.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, yeah, they're doing a great job and having f
one in partnership. I mean the car up there, the
car in the booth right, super.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Cool, super cool, good times. Well, it's good to be
in Vegas and on Cliffs Notes.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
We like to talk about things that are notable, and
I think we got a pretty big announcement to make
that's fairly notable.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Got a project that is a partnership for us that
we're going to be working on that we're pretty excited
to announce here at Rima, and it's called Project seventy four.
Project seventy four is a partnership that we're working on. Victor,
you're the owner and president of the Kimmet Company. For Rod,
you are the owner of Siam Iron Corporation, and we
(01:39):
are partnering together with Tungko and the Urban Mining Initiative
for Project seventy four.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Yeah, why seventy four?
Speaker 6 (01:52):
Oh yeah, it's a little you're asking me, yes to that?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
A little bit of seventy seventy four inside joke, right, yeah.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Saying if perotic a number off to tungusten.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
All right, So.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Seventy four in case you didn't know, that is the
periodic number for tungsten on the periodic table.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
I was surprised that that was lost on you.
Speaker 6 (02:14):
Yeah. Yeah, too much focused on the price, too.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Much, too much focused on all the prize, right, yeah, Victor,
I see you.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Uh, you've already partok in a little bit of the
brown water.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
It's afternoon, so why not, right, you can't drink all
day if you don't start in the morning.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
That's right, is it? You can't drink all day or
you can't be drunk all day if you don't.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I mean we are in Vegas, right, all right, So
I'm gonna I'm gonna get just a little bit.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Yeah, you don't want to drink alone.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
That's that's that's a bad recipe for disaster. So let's
let's talk about Projects seventy four just a little bit. Yeah,
So seventy four we said that that stands for tungsten.
Maybe some people know that, maybe maybe they don't. But
what's the main initiative that we're working on here. Well,
(03:04):
we're resourcing u tungston scrap, all right, yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
And turn it into valuable chemicals tunkston units, so useful units.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Tungsten's got a lot of attention here lately.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, because I mean, if you look at all of
the metals, it is on a meteoric or parabolic rise.
I mean, who would have thought, Victor, your dad was
in the business forever, My dad's been in the business forever.
Who would have thought that we would see the value
of the metal that we're.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Seeing the last talking in the last eight months going
up five times.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
It's it's insane.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So, uh, for rod, where do we think some of
that is coming from? As far as what is the
pressure and the initiative, what is what is the reason
behind this rise in tungsten pricing.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
I think historically maybe Tonglson Press was under value, actually undervalued, yeah,
for a very time, and the last one year geopolitical
become a trigger. Then demand supply was under the pressure
last few years finally come to the one point. Then
(04:16):
shortage happened in the market, and that start with the
China domestically, then spread to the world and after Chinese restriction,
that escalated this market upward. I think that's the major reason.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
It's just a function of supply and demand. I mean,
you've got you've got so little supply and demand is growing.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So that's that's what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So I mean we see tungsten as it's a supply
driven scale of economy, right, it's not.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
It's a limit.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I mean the reason why it's critical is because it's limited,
very limited. It's limited, and it's critical to our everyday use.
So let's let's just take a second here and we
can nerd out a little bit on the detail of
where is tungsten used.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Because I have.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
People will come up to me and they'll ask, hey,
is tungsten in this or is tungsten in that. It's
actually not in a lot of what we use, but
it goes into the manufacturing.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So let's let's unpack that just a little bit.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Yeah, Victor, well tool steels, is that what you're talking about?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Yeah, it could be tool steels manufacturing.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Yeah, yeah, into making things hardening steels, So we need
we need tungsten to make things.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
Yeah, in general, tool steals maybe seventy to eighty percent
of the market application and also, if you want to
explain the recent price change, maybe you'll have to forcast
a little bit more on the defense application. Okay, that's
maybe twenty of the whole the amount.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, you can't really talk about today's economy
without talking about defense. There are a few major conflicts
going on. Yeah, So so tungsten is used. I think
I think one of the coolest things I ever saw
that I first remembered, like, oh my god, that is
a very cool tungsten piece. It was a tank penetrator. Yeah,
(06:09):
and it was about it was about the size of
that water bottle and they probably weigh what about ten
to twelve pounds a piece. Absolutely, Yeah, And so that
that is a projectile that tanks would shoot at each other.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Uh yeah for armor penetration.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, So so defense is a big one. I think
another one that is could be of interest with the
rise of AI. We're at the RIMA event and there's
a lot of conversation about AI and technology, and we
don't have the chips and everything that we have without tungsten.
So tungsten goes into the creation of those chips in
(06:47):
a very high tech manner and very lightweight. But but
whenever you're talking about the scale that we're dealing with
on AI today, there's no way that we have that
production without tungue.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
So there is added demand.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
In fact, if you look at you can just if
you're interested, you can just google this or AI. But
it looks like the cager rate for tungsten over the
next five to six years is somewhere in the low
range of four percent and the high range of seven
to eight. Now, if you were a startup, you'd be like, yeah, no,
that performance is complete shit, I'm not interested in that.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
But we're not in a startup.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
We're in a very very mature Tungsin has been around
for over one hundred years, so to have that kind
of growth right now, it's pretty substantial. So for us
in our Project seventy four, one of the goals that
we're looking at is reshoring for the industrial and the
defense base. Right, so let's just talk about when we
say reshore. That might be self explanatory, but maybe not.
(07:48):
So when we're saying reshoring, what are we trying to
do there?
Speaker 6 (07:54):
Especially recent years. If you look at last ten years,
there's a five to six time group companies in the world.
They began to circle all material within the group. So
there's a less material available in the free market. And
we used to trade apt a lot like ten twenty
thousand tones. Now maybe major trading items become a scrap
(08:18):
and the recycling and that portion. There is an unknown
portion in the US. Still, you may no better than
me are shaping out from the US to the Asia
or the other countries and portion coming back as a
processed material portion not And the reason for that is
(08:38):
US lack of processing capability over there. So what we
try to do is use existing resource to add some
processing capability and serve the market here.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, so when you're saying we have a little bit
of a capacity issue, let's just let's hang out there
for just a second. Because all scrap is not created equal.
It doesn't matter if you're talking copper, stainless, tungsten, molly whatever,
it's all a little bit different. So if we all
of a sudden said hey, well let's just keep all
(09:14):
of the tungsten scrap in the United States, would we
even have the capacity to be able to handle all that?
Speaker 6 (09:22):
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Yeah, and some of.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
The how about the capacity to handle the high quality scrap,
all the high quality scrap, I don't.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I personally don't think we have capacity to even handle
the good material, much less the bad material.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Right, because even with no active tungsten minds in this country.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Correct, because one of the misunderstandings, like you'll you'll hear
somebody say, well, I only buy a tungsten virgin material. Right,
that's pretty that's pretty tough, especially if you're in the West,
because the only mind that we have, really, really really
active in the West come out of Bolivia, right, Portugal
and Spain, and and yeah, there's some volume there. But
(10:09):
to be able to say, oh, okay, well my material
is only from primary coming out of the ground, that
that's that's a pretty tough lift because as Farat mentioned,
you only have a handful of producers in the West
and they're largely running on scrap.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Well, Cliff, you know this very well that you know
my my industry making tungsten chemicals is primarily based on
virgin matreus and virgin material. It's very very difficult, especially
now increasingly difficult to get virgin material.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
So it is there in your space, Victor, Is there
is there a slot where you can use scrap?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
You have to be primary owned.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
No, it can be, it can be scrap derived.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It's just got to be low impurities, you know, clean scrap,
which is available.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
Also, based on the demands supply situation, a lot of
manufacturerly balanced the primary material and the secondary material, and
one demands low. A lot of more secondary material go outside.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Of the US.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
One is tightly less go out. But in my estimation
at least maybe ten to twenty percent or to recycling
material at this moment going out from US to the
other countries, and maybe only half of them less a
half of them coming back. So we are targeting this
portion of the resource here.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Cliff, A question people talking about scrap band if there
was processing capability for all the scrap in the United.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
States to stay in the United States. Would the scrap
band be a good thing.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
It would make more sense. Yeah, it would make more sense.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
But today what we experience is we don't have the capacity.
Even if we push the stop button and DJT signs
and says no more scrap going anywhere.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, that's just how he sounds.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, it's just we've got scrap here. Yeah, we don't
have the ability.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So Projects seventy four what we're trying to do is
actually expand the scrap production, expand the capacity so that
if indeed that does happen, or it doesn't matter if
it doesn't happen, then what we're doing is is we
have the capacity is for Rots Mentioning to be able
to take these units that are leaving. That's where the
reshore comes into play, that we have these units that
(12:37):
are leaving that now we can say, okay, we have
the capacity, and hopefully it's not just us. Hopefully there
are other players that come to the table, because for
us to really be critically independent, we can't just do
one or two projects.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
We need minds that come online.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
We need projects like Project seventy four to be stood
up so that we are making sure that we're in
control of our own destiny to a degree of what's
going on with these materials, because right now, again we're
kind of flying over the fact that there is no toungue.
There is zero tungsten primary production in the US. So
(13:17):
when somebody says, hey, I want to ban on the surface,
if you don't understand the logistics of the supply.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Chain, it makes sense exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
But when you get into it and you're like, well,
that's not really going to do anything for us, because
we can't do anything with that material. All that's going
to do is a complete disruption of the supply chain
and pricing.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
The whole deal.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
As for Rod mentioned, we do have materials that leave,
but often they do come back. One of the other
things that we're not even really talking about is that.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
We need deregulation.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So when we talk about, okay, let's stand up a
mind or let's stand up a project seventy four, am
I ating for ourself that we need less regulation. Yes,
one hundred percent, I am advocating for that because that's
where the other nations beat us to. The finish line
is because they're less regular. It doesn't We're not saying
(14:14):
that you need to throw rules to the wayside or
just not consider the environment or do anything like that.
That's not what we're saying.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
What we're saying one of the most friendly administrations to
mining and manufacturing ever, and it's still not enough.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
So what we're saying is is, hey, can we just
work together to solve this problem and not go through
a thousand checklist? You got to have a thousand yeses,
and every thousand yeses has a thousand answers with It's
it's the red tape.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
You're eventually going to get there.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But that's why it's taking us ten years to stand
up a tungsten mind, and people in the Far East
can stand up a tungsten mind in six months.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
So that's where that's where I think.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And to answer your question about whereas where does the
tungsten band stand for me?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Or a scrap band? Where does that stand?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Gotcha?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
That's where that's where that's at for me.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Man.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
All right, let's talk about the criticality.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Maybe we've touched on that just a little bit of tungsten,
but let's just talk about critical raw materials in general,
is Molly on the list? No, so nicols on. I
mean we are at a scrap convention. So Nickel is
on the list, Copper is on the list. Yeah, So
let's just talk about where that's at, the attention that
(15:33):
that's getting now.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I mean, there's a.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Lot of attention around rare earth and the battery process,
but let's just talk about it at large.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
What does it mean for a metal to or an
element to be critical?
Speaker 6 (15:45):
In my opinions, like, for example, in case of Congerstan
the geopolitically, yea concentrate in few countries on the supply,
that's the problem for the whole market. For example, Tungerston's
seventy eighty percent supplied from China. So if you see
the whole wall, that's a very unbalanced thing. So what
(16:07):
we do is we increase our supply capability in the West.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Okay, Victor, any thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, you're probably the best person to answer that question.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Oh that's a good dodge.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Go ahead and go ahead and pull on that bottle
a little bit. While I'm answering this question, I'm answering
my own question. Yeah, I mean, for me, when I
think about the criticality of it.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
It's just what is it it?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
It's so critical to everyday life. Yeah, of course that
if it, if it gets to a level of massive
market disruption, it can really impact the way we live.
So all of those elements that are on there, and
actually the US government has solidified I believe it's sixty
that we have right now. And if you haven't heard
(16:51):
about the about the Vault, no matter where you're at
politically from a jd Vance or Trump perspective, you need
to do a little bit of R and D on
the vault because if you're in the metals world, that's
going to impact all of us from pricing floors to regulation.
It's not going to make it less regulated, it's going
(17:12):
to actually make it more regulated. So definitely definitely check
out the Vault. We haven't mentioned sodium tung state.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Now.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
A lot of people are talking about ammonium pair of
tunk state. We could do a quiz with the audience
and be like, hey, who knows what ammonium pair of
tunk state is. But since our project is revolving around
sodium tung state, let's be a little selfish and talk
about sodium tung state. So Victor, we were talking about sodium.
Last night at dinner, we were talking about sodium tung state.
(17:42):
What was the other thing that dihydrate? Debbie had a
Debbie had a huge question about that, and I'm like, okay,
we've we've talked about st but this is the first
time I've heard about the d in it.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So give us a little rundown. What that is is
that the two on the end? Oh okay, So yeah,
I failed chemistry.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah yeah, that was That was one of my father's
main disappointments, is my lack of interest or effort in chemistry.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
So that the comes down to shelf life. That's what
we're looking looking for, the longest shelf life of tungsten
units for storage for for whatever purpose.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
That's what we're shooting for. That's what we're shooting. But
let's talk about what is it like. So we're we're
at a scrap convention. So if we're like, hey, guys,
we're doing sodium tung state, how many people are gonna be.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Like, yep, I know what that guy is talking about.
So let's just we're on cliffs notes.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
So like when you want I never read Romeo and Juliet,
but I did read the cliffs Notes version of it.
So give us the cliffs Notes of the chemistry version of.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Sodium state n A two W O four plus two
H two. Oh's that's the the chemical.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
That feels like romeo and juliet.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah, So it's a crystal.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
It's a crystaline free flowing chemical white and color that.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Is three.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Okay, So where is it We don't necessarily necessarily have
to talk about the value chain of it, but let's
talk about where is that at in making tungsten. So
if that bottle right there was tungsten before we even
get to a finished part. Right, where where does sodium
tung state fit.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
In the in the spectrum?
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Well, that'd be from from scrap to to sodium tung
state then to uh W three to powder.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
To metal.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
So would we still call that an intermediate Yes, yes,
so it's it's not a metal powder that we will
be making chemical chemical powder. So it's so it's a
chemical powder, but it's but it's critical and the production
of getting to that if that were a tungsten bottle
or the tank penetrator that we were talking about, it's
critical to getting it.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's a it's a necessary step yes, for sure at
the moment. Right.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
No, based on the existing technology, I think almost one
hundred percent tungsten products have to go through the process
to be at sodium tungsten.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Then go end up with the products. Yeah, that's a
great point for ROD.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So what we're saying is, at some point in its
life a tungsten molecule is going to become sodium tungstate.
Whether it starts out as a primary or a secondary,
it's going to get to sodium tungstate.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
All the tungsten scrap that we'd be using was sodium
tungstate at some point.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
At some point.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, full circle.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, So when we're talking about circular economy, yeah, and
reshoring everything. What we want to do right now with
Project seventy four is we want to take units that
are twofold. We don't have capacity to be able to
produce it. But some of the major producers also don't.
It's not that they don't have the ability, but let's
(20:56):
just say they're not set up to deal with some
of the lower grade type units that we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
So we're taking those units for ROD that you mentioned,
and we will reshore those and we will turn them
into a sodium tunk state, and then that sodium tung
state can be used by all of the major producers
in the West, right, that's right. So in general, just
to kind of put a cap on everything, we're not
(21:25):
necessarily saying we're for against this, but what we are
saying is is we are very much serious about keeping
tungsten units in the United States.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yes, very very serious about that.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
So we increase sodium tungsten production capacity in the US
by using the existing old material in the US, and
we supply the existing customer in the US.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
It's a win, right, it's a it's a dead win, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So what we're hoping for in the coming years with
Projects seventy four is that we work with these partners
that you're mentioning. We're able to provide them the raw
material that was previously leaving America but staying now we
wanted to stay, but we set up the capacity for
that to be able to be processed. At the same time,
(22:20):
we support minds being stood up, right, I think every
I mean, Victor, you mentioned you have to have that right.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, absolutely, we would love to have talks and minds
in the States.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So that would just how would that help you. What
are some of the challenges that you're facing right now
with the squeeze tariffs. So we got tariffs, but you
also have export restrictions out of China.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yeah, you can't get I mean it's very very difficult
to a couple places in the world. You can get
virgin tuncson right now into the States, and it's most
of it's not allowed, which goes back to the pricing
jumps that we've seen. When you have almost ninety percent
of the world's tungsten not allowed to leave, you know,
enter the United States, what's a big squeeze.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah, and demand going up at the same time.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, and so the market is definitely feeling the pain
of that, and that's gonna eventually, Uh, that's gonna eventually
have a trickle down effect to the consumer. We were
we were in Las Vegas about a month ago at
kanag Expo, and that's in the construction and agriculture world,
and it's we're talking about various areas where the where
(23:24):
recycled or sorry, where tungsten carbide is used and it's
it's used heavily in mining and construction.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
And we did a cliffs notes pod while we were there.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I would say over half of the guests that were
on the pod said that they are already looking for
substitution products for tungsten.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I don't know that they exist.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Well, that's a great question.
Speaker 6 (23:47):
Yeah, very difficult. Very small portion of the chemical tanist
and chemical can be replased to buy them all over
the and a very small portion maybe tungusten carbide can
be placed to buy the ceramics things. But I think
ninety percent cannot be replaced because of the time there's
(24:08):
some very unique character as a metal.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
For what could be what could be a replacement for
toxic carbide.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Ceramic diamond, right, yeah, but it's maybe.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
With the heatwithstanding, Yeah, it's still very weak on other aspects, right,
but we can replace certain portion, very little portion.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, so if you if you search that, if you Gemini,
that Gemini will tell you that there's other things like shielding.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So if you're ever in TSA waiting in line, Yeah,
and you see a machine there, most of those machines
have tungusen inside of them because the shielding is replacing lead.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think certain things like that are irreplaceable. But I
literally foraud I had we had a customer tell us.
They were like, look, we would rather just go with
steel and just replace the part everything and just replace
the part more. Really, so again, it's not you can't
(25:15):
say that. It's I mean, it's no more replaceable than
can can I turn this water into bourbon.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
It's not possible. The water is not gonna do for
me what the bourbon does. And feel me down there victory.
It's not you.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
You can't swap it. But they're saying, I don't, I
don't care what. I don't care what it's gonna do
because the cost has has become so high. I'm willing
to substitute and just change the part out. So I
do think as an industry, as a tungsten industry, that's
something we need to be concerned about that we could
price ourselves out of viability for certain areas. Now that
(25:54):
doesn't mean you're going to find a part. You asked him,
what's going to replace it? I'm not arguing that it's replaceable.
I'm arguing, is that all of a sudden, now it's
value replaceable. It's what we would say, it's good enough,
like I don't have to have a ferrari. We won't
mention some car brands. Maybe that's bad because we're we
got some car guys here Farima. But I don't have
(26:16):
to have this level. I could take another a lower level.
Yeah right, it would be just good enough. So that
that's the concern that I have. I mean, but for
your area, Victor, you're saying, hey, I can't get that material.
Is there a replacement for you or no?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
There's not.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
Not with when you're talking about pure you know, very
very low in purities, there's nothing. I mean, you can't
use off the shelf scrap, just like I was gonna
mention the aerospace industry. Okay, frispace industry can't use scrap.
You know they need pure pure tungsten.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Are you sure about that?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Well, for most most of them, not all of them.
Speaker 6 (26:56):
I want to add what I'm playing for that talk pic.
We're talking replacement. We have to look at there's a
lot of existing possibility of existing things. Tongue is actually
replacing other materials. I give you example, just a few
years ago, layers no tonguestone wire for cutting the silicon ingot.
(27:20):
Right now tongston wire totally repairs to stainless wire, and
that demount is ten thousand ton a year.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Okay, So that and you're talking about for what product? Again,
the wire is for cutting.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
Solar panel, for the silicon ingot you have to cut
that slices. They used to use stainless wire, not on
use tongue stone wire. Way efficient, way, long lasting, way thinner.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So let me just play, let me steal man this
just a little bit. So is there a chance, though
I know that that's the new technology, is there a
chance that tungsten becomes so expensive that they would return
to the stainless wire.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
I think it depends on the how much tongue cent
and the total cost.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
Still, like even in the cutting industry, cutting tool industry,
if you see the tongue unit press in the total
unit press of the cutting tools stills less than five percent,
So less than five percent costs increase a lot, being
almost nothing to the total costs.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
So what we're saying is, while it could be replaced
in certain areas, this cager growth that we expect to
see of five to eight percent over the next five
to six years, we feel like that's pretty solid, irregardless
of what happens with the price.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
That's right, And I.
Speaker 6 (28:58):
Mentioned a little bit like defense. Every drawn you have
to use tungston.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Every drone has to use tungsten from a few hundred
ground to fuel kilogram.
Speaker 6 (29:09):
Okay, and a few years ago we never see John
in the anywhere, No every sence.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Everywhere, everywhere.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So I think there's a solid demount
grooves for Dunderston.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
So what it sounds like is Project seventy four has
a pretty bright future, absolutely absolutely all right. So boys,
just to kind of put a cap on it, it's
exciting that we're celebrating the announcement and the launch of
Projects seventy four. We're going to be making sodium tung
state for the United States industrial base. Yes, while we're
(29:45):
keeping material in the United States, making sure that it's
not leaving here going other places, but we're using it.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
I think I think it would make DJT proud.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Serve super exciting stuff.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Absolutely all right, DJT, if you're listening, give us a
shout out on Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
But this has been another episode of Cliff's Notes. Farad Victor,
thanks for the partnership. Excited about Project seventy four. We'll
see you next time for you next
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Time, Cliff Snows Cliff snows, cliff snows, cliff snows
Cliff Snows, Cliff Snows.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
All right, welcome to an episode of Cliffs Notes podcast.
We are live at Rima. How's everybody doing out there?
Did you lose any money last night?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Victor? I won money? Last night?
Speaker 4 (00:31):
You won money? How about are you up?
Speaker 5 (00:33):
I'm up about eight hundred bucks. Come home, Dad for
about a stake tonight? Oh?
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Are you buying a baby? Okay?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
All right, well we'll keep that in mind forad. How
you doing, Buddy, I'm doing good. Yeah, all right, it's.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Good to have. Good to have you guys in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I want to give a shout out to Rima for
all the hard work they're doing and for providing a.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Platform for Cliff's Notes.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, yeah, they're doing a great job and having f
one in partnership. I mean the car up there, the
car in the booth right, super.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Cool, super cool, good times. Well, it's good to be
in Vegas and on Cliffs Notes.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
We like to talk about things that are notable, and
I think we got a pretty big announcement to make
that's fairly notable.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Got a project that is a partnership for us that
we're going to be working on that we're pretty excited
to announce here at Rima, and it's called Project seventy four.
Project seventy four is a partnership that we're working on. Victor,
you're the owner and president of the Kimmet Company. For Rod,
you are the owner of Siam Iron Corporation, and we
(01:39):
are partnering together with Tungko and the Urban Mining Initiative
for Project seventy four.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Yeah, why seventy four?
Speaker 6 (01:52):
Oh yeah, it's a little you're asking me, yes to that?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
A little bit of seventy seventy four inside joke, right, yeah.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Saying if perotic a number off to tungusten.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
All right, So.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Seventy four in case you didn't know, that is the
periodic number for tungsten on the periodic table.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
I was surprised that that was lost on you.
Speaker 6 (02:14):
Yeah. Yeah, too much focused on the price, too.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Much, too much focused on all the prize, right, yeah, Victor,
I see you.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Uh, you've already partok in a little bit of the
brown water.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
It's afternoon, so why not, right, you can't drink all
day if you don't start in the morning.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
That's right, is it? You can't drink all day or
you can't be drunk all day if you don't.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I mean we are in Vegas, right, all right, So
I'm gonna I'm gonna get just a little bit.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Yeah, you don't want to drink alone.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
That's that's that's a bad recipe for disaster. So let's
let's talk about Projects seventy four just a little bit. Yeah,
So seventy four we said that that stands for tungsten.
Maybe some people know that, maybe maybe they don't. But
what's the main initiative that we're working on here. Well,
(03:04):
we're resourcing u tungston scrap, all right, yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
And turn it into valuable chemicals tunkston units, so useful units.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Tungsten's got a lot of attention here lately.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, because I mean, if you look at all of
the metals, it is on a meteoric or parabolic rise.
I mean, who would have thought, Victor, your dad was
in the business forever, My dad's been in the business forever.
Who would have thought that we would see the value
of the metal that we're.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Seeing the last talking in the last eight months going
up five times.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
It's it's insane.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So, uh, for rod, where do we think some of
that is coming from? As far as what is the
pressure and the initiative, what is what is the reason
behind this rise in tungsten pricing.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
I think historically maybe Tonglson Press was under value, actually undervalued, yeah,
for a very time, and the last one year geopolitical
become a trigger. Then demand supply was under the pressure
last few years finally come to the one point. Then
(04:16):
shortage happened in the market, and that start with the
China domestically, then spread to the world and after Chinese restriction,
that escalated this market upward. I think that's the major reason.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
It's just a function of supply and demand. I mean,
you've got you've got so little supply and demand is growing.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So that's that's what it is. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So I mean we see tungsten as it's a supply
driven scale of economy, right, it's not.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
It's a limit.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I mean the reason why it's critical is because it's limited,
very limited. It's limited, and it's critical to our everyday use.
So let's let's just take a second here and we
can nerd out a little bit on the detail of
where is tungsten used.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Because I have.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
People will come up to me and they'll ask, hey,
is tungsten in this or is tungsten in that. It's
actually not in a lot of what we use, but
it goes into the manufacturing.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
So let's let's unpack that just a little bit.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Yeah, Victor, well tool steels, is that what you're talking about?
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Yeah, it could be tool steels manufacturing.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
Yeah, yeah, into making things hardening steels, So we need
we need tungsten to make things.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
Yeah, in general, tool steals maybe seventy to eighty percent
of the market application and also, if you want to
explain the recent price change, maybe you'll have to forcast
a little bit more on the defense application. Okay, that's
maybe twenty of the whole the amount.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, you can't really talk about today's economy
without talking about defense. There are a few major conflicts
going on. Yeah, So so tungsten is used. I think
I think one of the coolest things I ever saw
that I first remembered, like, oh my god, that is
a very cool tungsten piece. It was a tank penetrator. Yeah,
(06:09):
and it was about it was about the size of
that water bottle and they probably weigh what about ten
to twelve pounds a piece. Absolutely, Yeah, And so that
that is a projectile that tanks would shoot at each other.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Uh yeah for armor penetration.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, So so defense is a big one. I think
another one that is could be of interest with the
rise of AI. We're at the RIMA event and there's
a lot of conversation about AI and technology, and we
don't have the chips and everything that we have without tungsten.
So tungsten goes into the creation of those chips in
(06:47):
a very high tech manner and very lightweight. But but
whenever you're talking about the scale that we're dealing with
on AI today, there's no way that we have that
production without tungue.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
So there is added demand.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
In fact, if you look at you can just if
you're interested, you can just google this or AI. But
it looks like the cager rate for tungsten over the
next five to six years is somewhere in the low
range of four percent and the high range of seven
to eight. Now, if you were a startup, you'd be like, yeah, no,
that performance is complete shit, I'm not interested in that.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
But we're not in a startup.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
We're in a very very mature Tungsin has been around
for over one hundred years, so to have that kind
of growth right now, it's pretty substantial. So for us
in our Project seventy four, one of the goals that
we're looking at is reshoring for the industrial and the
defense base. Right, so let's just talk about when we
say reshore. That might be self explanatory, but maybe not.
(07:48):
So when we're saying reshoring, what are we trying to
do there?
Speaker 6 (07:54):
Especially recent years. If you look at last ten years,
there's a five to six time group companies in the world.
They began to circle all material within the group. So
there's a less material available in the free market. And
we used to trade apt a lot like ten twenty
thousand tones. Now maybe major trading items become a scrap
(08:18):
and the recycling and that portion. There is an unknown
portion in the US. Still, you may no better than
me are shaping out from the US to the Asia
or the other countries and portion coming back as a
processed material portion not And the reason for that is
(08:38):
US lack of processing capability over there. So what we
try to do is use existing resource to add some
processing capability and serve the market here.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, so when you're saying we have a little bit
of a capacity issue, let's just let's hang out there
for just a second. Because all scrap is not created equal.
It doesn't matter if you're talking copper, stainless, tungsten, molly whatever,
it's all a little bit different. So if we all
of a sudden said hey, well let's just keep all
(09:14):
of the tungsten scrap in the United States, would we
even have the capacity to be able to handle all that?
Speaker 6 (09:22):
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Yeah, and some of.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
The how about the capacity to handle the high quality scrap,
all the high quality scrap, I don't.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I personally don't think we have capacity to even handle
the good material, much less the bad material.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Right, because even with no active tungsten minds in this country.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Correct, because one of the misunderstandings, like you'll you'll hear
somebody say, well, I only buy a tungsten virgin material. Right,
that's pretty that's pretty tough, especially if you're in the West,
because the only mind that we have, really, really really
active in the West come out of Bolivia, right, Portugal
and Spain, and and yeah, there's some volume there. But
(10:09):
to be able to say, oh, okay, well my material
is only from primary coming out of the ground, that
that's that's a pretty tough lift because as Farat mentioned,
you only have a handful of producers in the West
and they're largely running on scrap.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Well, Cliff, you know this very well that you know
my my industry making tungsten chemicals is primarily based on
virgin matreus and virgin material. It's very very difficult, especially
now increasingly difficult to get virgin material.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
So it is there in your space, Victor, Is there
is there a slot where you can use scrap?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
You have to be primary owned.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
No, it can be, it can be scrap derived.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It's just got to be low impurities, you know, clean scrap,
which is available.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
Also, based on the demands supply situation, a lot of
manufacturerly balanced the primary material and the secondary material, and
one demands low. A lot of more secondary material go outside.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Of the US.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
One is tightly less go out. But in my estimation
at least maybe ten to twenty percent or to recycling
material at this moment going out from US to the
other countries, and maybe only half of them less a
half of them coming back. So we are targeting this
portion of the resource here.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Cliff, A question people talking about scrap band if there
was processing capability for all the scrap in the United.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
States to stay in the United States. Would the scrap
band be a good thing.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
It would make more sense. Yeah, it would make more sense.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
But today what we experience is we don't have the capacity.
Even if we push the stop button and DJT signs
and says no more scrap going anywhere.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, that's just how he sounds.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Yeah, it's just we've got scrap here. Yeah, we don't
have the ability.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So Projects seventy four what we're trying to do is
actually expand the scrap production, expand the capacity so that
if indeed that does happen, or it doesn't matter if
it doesn't happen, then what we're doing is is we
have the capacity is for Rots Mentioning to be able
to take these units that are leaving. That's where the
reshore comes into play, that we have these units that
(12:37):
are leaving that now we can say, okay, we have
the capacity, and hopefully it's not just us. Hopefully there
are other players that come to the table, because for
us to really be critically independent, we can't just do
one or two projects.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
We need minds that come online.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
We need projects like Project seventy four to be stood
up so that we are making sure that we're in
control of our own destiny to a degree of what's
going on with these materials, because right now, again we're
kind of flying over the fact that there is no toungue.
There is zero tungsten primary production in the US. So
(13:17):
when somebody says, hey, I want to ban on the surface,
if you don't understand the logistics of the supply.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Chain, it makes sense exactly.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
But when you get into it and you're like, well,
that's not really going to do anything for us, because
we can't do anything with that material. All that's going
to do is a complete disruption of the supply chain
and pricing.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
The whole deal.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
As for Rod mentioned, we do have materials that leave,
but often they do come back. One of the other
things that we're not even really talking about is that.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
We need deregulation.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
So when we talk about, okay, let's stand up a
mind or let's stand up a project seventy four, am
I ating for ourself that we need less regulation. Yes,
one hundred percent, I am advocating for that because that's
where the other nations beat us to. The finish line
is because they're less regular. It doesn't We're not saying
(14:14):
that you need to throw rules to the wayside or
just not consider the environment or do anything like that.
That's not what we're saying.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
What we're saying one of the most friendly administrations to
mining and manufacturing ever, and it's still not enough.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
So what we're saying is is, hey, can we just
work together to solve this problem and not go through
a thousand checklist? You got to have a thousand yeses,
and every thousand yeses has a thousand answers with It's
it's the red tape.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
You're eventually going to get there.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But that's why it's taking us ten years to stand
up a tungsten mind, and people in the Far East
can stand up a tungsten mind in six months.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
So that's where that's where I think.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And to answer your question about whereas where does the
tungsten band stand for me?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Or a scrap band? Where does that stand?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Gotcha?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
That's where that's where that's at for me.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Man.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
All right, let's talk about the criticality.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Maybe we've touched on that just a little bit of tungsten,
but let's just talk about critical raw materials in general,
is Molly on the list? No, so nicols on. I
mean we are at a scrap convention. So Nickel is
on the list, Copper is on the list. Yeah, So
let's just talk about where that's at, the attention that
(15:33):
that's getting now.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I mean, there's a.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Lot of attention around rare earth and the battery process,
but let's just talk about it at large.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
What does it mean for a metal to or an
element to be critical?
Speaker 6 (15:45):
In my opinions, like, for example, in case of Congerstan
the geopolitically, yea concentrate in few countries on the supply,
that's the problem for the whole market. For example, Tungerston's
seventy eighty percent supplied from China. So if you see
the whole wall, that's a very unbalanced thing. So what
(16:07):
we do is we increase our supply capability in the West.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Okay, Victor, any thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, you're probably the best person to answer that question.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Oh that's a good dodge.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Go ahead and go ahead and pull on that bottle
a little bit. While I'm answering this question, I'm answering
my own question. Yeah, I mean, for me, when I
think about the criticality of it.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
It's just what is it it?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
It's so critical to everyday life. Yeah, of course that
if it, if it gets to a level of massive
market disruption, it can really impact the way we live.
So all of those elements that are on there, and
actually the US government has solidified I believe it's sixty
that we have right now. And if you haven't heard
(16:51):
about the about the Vault, no matter where you're at
politically from a jd Vance or Trump perspective, you need
to do a little bit of R and D on
the vault because if you're in the metals world, that's
going to impact all of us from pricing floors to regulation.
It's not going to make it less regulated, it's going
(17:12):
to actually make it more regulated. So definitely definitely check
out the Vault. We haven't mentioned sodium tung state.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Now.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
A lot of people are talking about ammonium pair of
tunk state. We could do a quiz with the audience
and be like, hey, who knows what ammonium pair of
tunk state is. But since our project is revolving around
sodium tung state, let's be a little selfish and talk
about sodium tung state. So Victor, we were talking about sodium.
Last night at dinner, we were talking about sodium tung state.
(17:42):
What was the other thing that dihydrate? Debbie had a
Debbie had a huge question about that, and I'm like, okay,
we've we've talked about st but this is the first
time I've heard about the d in it.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So give us a little rundown. What that is is
that the two on the end? Oh okay, So yeah,
I failed chemistry.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah yeah, that was That was one of my father's
main disappointments, is my lack of interest or effort in chemistry.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
So that the comes down to shelf life. That's what
we're looking looking for, the longest shelf life of tungsten
units for storage for for whatever purpose.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
That's what we're shooting for. That's what we're shooting. But
let's talk about what is it like. So we're we're
at a scrap convention. So if we're like, hey, guys,
we're doing sodium tung state, how many people are gonna be.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Like, yep, I know what that guy is talking about.
So let's just we're on cliffs notes.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
So like when you want I never read Romeo and Juliet,
but I did read the cliffs Notes version of it.
So give us the cliffs Notes of the chemistry version of.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Sodium state n A two W O four plus two
H two. Oh's that's the the chemical.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
That feels like romeo and juliet.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah, So it's a crystal.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
It's a crystaline free flowing chemical white and color that.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Is three.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Okay, So where is it We don't necessarily necessarily have
to talk about the value chain of it, but let's
talk about where is that at in making tungsten. So
if that bottle right there was tungsten before we even
get to a finished part. Right, where where does sodium
tung state fit.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
In the in the spectrum?
Speaker 5 (19:24):
Well, that'd be from from scrap to to sodium tung
state then to uh W three to powder.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
To metal.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
So would we still call that an intermediate Yes, yes,
so it's it's not a metal powder that we will
be making chemical chemical powder. So it's so it's a
chemical powder, but it's but it's critical and the production
of getting to that if that were a tungsten bottle
or the tank penetrator that we were talking about, it's
critical to getting it.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
It's a it's a necessary step yes, for sure at
the moment. Right.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
No, based on the existing technology, I think almost one
hundred percent tungsten products have to go through the process
to be at sodium tungsten.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Then go end up with the products. Yeah, that's a
great point for ROD.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So what we're saying is, at some point in its
life a tungsten molecule is going to become sodium tungstate.
Whether it starts out as a primary or a secondary,
it's going to get to sodium tungstate.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
All the tungsten scrap that we'd be using was sodium
tungstate at some point.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
At some point.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Yeah, full circle.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, So when we're talking about circular economy, yeah, and
reshoring everything. What we want to do right now with
Project seventy four is we want to take units that
are twofold. We don't have capacity to be able to
produce it. But some of the major producers also don't.
It's not that they don't have the ability, but let's
(20:56):
just say they're not set up to deal with some
of the lower grade type units that we're talking about.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
So we're taking those units for ROD that you mentioned,
and we will reshore those and we will turn them
into a sodium tunk state, and then that sodium tung
state can be used by all of the major producers
in the West, right, that's right. So in general, just
to kind of put a cap on everything, we're not
(21:25):
necessarily saying we're for against this, but what we are
saying is is we are very much serious about keeping
tungsten units in the United States.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yes, very very serious about that.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
So we increase sodium tungsten production capacity in the US
by using the existing old material in the US, and
we supply the existing customer in the US.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
It's a win, right, it's a it's a dead win, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So what we're hoping for in the coming years with
Projects seventy four is that we work with these partners
that you're mentioning. We're able to provide them the raw
material that was previously leaving America but staying now we
wanted to stay, but we set up the capacity for
that to be able to be processed. At the same time,
(22:20):
we support minds being stood up, right, I think every
I mean, Victor, you mentioned you have to have that right.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, absolutely, we would love to have talks and minds
in the States.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So that would just how would that help you. What
are some of the challenges that you're facing right now
with the squeeze tariffs. So we got tariffs, but you
also have export restrictions out of China.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
Yeah, you can't get I mean it's very very difficult
to a couple places in the world. You can get
virgin tuncson right now into the States, and it's most
of it's not allowed, which goes back to the pricing
jumps that we've seen. When you have almost ninety percent
of the world's tungsten not allowed to leave, you know,
enter the United States, what's a big squeeze.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah, and demand going up at the same time.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, and so the market is definitely feeling the pain
of that, and that's gonna eventually, Uh, that's gonna eventually
have a trickle down effect to the consumer. We were
we were in Las Vegas about a month ago at
kanag Expo, and that's in the construction and agriculture world,
and it's we're talking about various areas where the where
(23:24):
recycled or sorry, where tungsten carbide is used and it's
it's used heavily in mining and construction.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
And we did a cliffs notes pod while we were there.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I would say over half of the guests that were
on the pod said that they are already looking for
substitution products for tungsten.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I don't know that they exist.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Well, that's a great question.
Speaker 6 (23:47):
Yeah, very difficult. Very small portion of the chemical tanist
and chemical can be replased to buy them all over
the and a very small portion maybe tungusten carbide can
be placed to buy the ceramics things. But I think
ninety percent cannot be replaced because of the time there's
(24:08):
some very unique character as a metal.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
For what could be what could be a replacement for
toxic carbide.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Ceramic diamond, right, yeah, but it's maybe.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
With the heatwithstanding, Yeah, it's still very weak on other aspects, right,
but we can replace certain portion, very little portion.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, so if you if you search that, if you Gemini,
that Gemini will tell you that there's other things like shielding.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
So if you're ever in TSA waiting in line, Yeah,
and you see a machine there, most of those machines
have tungusen inside of them because the shielding is replacing lead.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think certain things like that are irreplaceable. But I
literally foraud I had we had a customer tell us.
They were like, look, we would rather just go with
steel and just replace the part everything and just replace
the part more. Really, so again, it's not you can't
(25:15):
say that. It's I mean, it's no more replaceable than
can can I turn this water into bourbon.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
It's not possible. The water is not gonna do for
me what the bourbon does. And feel me down there victory.
It's not you.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
You can't swap it. But they're saying, I don't, I
don't care what. I don't care what it's gonna do
because the cost has has become so high. I'm willing
to substitute and just change the part out. So I
do think as an industry, as a tungsten industry, that's
something we need to be concerned about that we could
price ourselves out of viability for certain areas. Now that
(25:54):
doesn't mean you're going to find a part. You asked him,
what's going to replace it? I'm not arguing that it's replaceable.
I'm arguing, is that all of a sudden, now it's
value replaceable. It's what we would say, it's good enough,
like I don't have to have a ferrari. We won't
mention some car brands. Maybe that's bad because we're we
got some car guys here Farima. But I don't have
(26:16):
to have this level. I could take another a lower level.
Yeah right, it would be just good enough. So that
that's the concern that I have. I mean, but for
your area, Victor, you're saying, hey, I can't get that material.
Is there a replacement for you or no?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
There's not.
Speaker 5 (26:33):
Not with when you're talking about pure you know, very
very low in purities, there's nothing. I mean, you can't
use off the shelf scrap, just like I was gonna
mention the aerospace industry. Okay, frispace industry can't use scrap.
You know they need pure pure tungsten.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Are you sure about that?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Well, for most most of them, not all of them.
Speaker 6 (26:56):
I want to add what I'm playing for that talk pic.
We're talking replacement. We have to look at there's a
lot of existing possibility of existing things. Tongue is actually
replacing other materials. I give you example, just a few
years ago, layers no tonguestone wire for cutting the silicon ingot.
(27:20):
Right now tongston wire totally repairs to stainless wire, and
that demount is ten thousand ton a year.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Okay, So that and you're talking about for what product? Again,
the wire is for cutting.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
Solar panel, for the silicon ingot you have to cut
that slices. They used to use stainless wire, not on
use tongue stone wire. Way efficient, way, long lasting, way thinner.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So let me just play, let me steal man this
just a little bit. So is there a chance, though
I know that that's the new technology, is there a
chance that tungsten becomes so expensive that they would return
to the stainless wire.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
I think it depends on the how much tongue cent
and the total cost.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (28:18):
Still, like even in the cutting industry, cutting tool industry,
if you see the tongue unit press in the total
unit press of the cutting tools stills less than five percent,
So less than five percent costs increase a lot, being
almost nothing to the total costs.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
So what we're saying is, while it could be replaced
in certain areas, this cager growth that we expect to
see of five to eight percent over the next five
to six years, we feel like that's pretty solid, irregardless
of what happens with the price.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
That's right, And I.
Speaker 6 (28:58):
Mentioned a little bit like defense. Every drawn you have
to use tungston.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Every drone has to use tungsten from a few hundred
ground to fuel kilogram.
Speaker 6 (29:09):
Okay, and a few years ago we never see John
in the anywhere, No every sence.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Everywhere, everywhere.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Yeah yeah, yeah, So I think there's a solid demount
grooves for Dunderston.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
So what it sounds like is Project seventy four has
a pretty bright future, absolutely absolutely all right. So boys,
just to kind of put a cap on it, it's
exciting that we're celebrating the announcement and the launch of
Projects seventy four. We're going to be making sodium tung
state for the United States industrial base. Yes, while we're
(29:45):
keeping material in the United States, making sure that it's
not leaving here going other places, but we're using it.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
I think I think it would make DJT proud.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Serve super exciting stuff.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Absolutely all right, DJT, if you're listening, give us a
shout out on Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
But this has been another episode of Cliff's Notes. Farad Victor,
thanks for the partnership. Excited about Project seventy four. We'll
see you next time for you next
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Time, Cliff Snows Cliff snows, cliff snows, cliff snows
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