CR Ep 206: Mandalay Bay Shooting w Mike Turber & Belief and Para-Investigation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
M m m m hm m m m m.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Coming to you from the City of the Weird, exploring.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Topics from the esoteric and unexplored.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
That the intro is flying right now, shining a light
of truth on the darkest corners of our reality. Welcome
to the Curious realm.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
Well, hello everybody, how you doing this Tuesday evening? Chris
Jordan coming at you from Austin, Texas. Oh, man, I
tell you, sometimes the world is the world, and life
is life, and there's nothing you can do but duck
and dodge and dive from the from the artillery fire man.

(01:12):
I hope everybody is doing well tonight. I have some
friends out there that I'm praying hard for right now.
They know who they are. If you have some energy,
just pray for my friends who need praying for. I
don't want to air their things personally on air, but
they definitely need some vibes out there, as it does
a lot of the world. We unfortunately were unable to

(01:36):
connect with our first guests this evening. We were supposed
to have the medium Brook Ashley on to talk about
spiritual connection, connection with the other side, things like that.
So in lou of Brooke Ashley we we have the
always indomitable and stalwart Mike Turber, who literally literally got

(01:59):
a phone call like a minute and a half before
we went live. Uh, welcome back to the show as always,
Mike Turber, How are you my friend?

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Hey?

Speaker 4 (02:09):
But I'm always don't call for the emergency.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
I guess if you needn't know you, you are more
than just a guess. You are a friend of friends.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Dude.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
We have shared so many conversations on the side of
my things, and you know, it's it's been fascinating to
me over the last year, some of the things that
we have covered. But tonight I want to get into
it dawned on me as I called you, and I
was like, what the hell am I going to talk

(02:42):
to Mike Turber about if I call him? Yeah, yeah, right,
he still doesn't know. I just figured it out like
two minutes ago, a minute and a half, like I
called him a minute and a half ago. Thirty seconds
after that is the intro air, and I was like,
I have it. We have never covered the Root ninety

(03:06):
one shooting updates, Michael. It's never happened. And that's quite
literally the beginnings of I mean that happened the anniversary
just passed at the beginning of October, and that is
quite literally what begat our friendship, not only his host guest,
but off air as well, due to our good friend

(03:29):
out there, Shannon Ray Caffey. If you're listening, kudos to you,
my friend. I hope things are well. I hope you
were blessed with your wife as y'all travel across the
country and you're living your best RV life.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
I love getting the pictures from him. I know that.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
He is just out loving all of it. I love that.
I love that for them because it really was for
them and a few people that I know that were
working the concert that night, Mike, it was a life
changing moment, something that I mean, it's And for those

(04:06):
of you that aren't aware, the route in anyone shooting
is is the Vegas shooting, the Mandalay Bay massacre, as
it's supposedly called all kinds of things.

Speaker 4 (04:19):
But I think I think thoughts are called one October
is how the official agencies and whatever they can they
call it one October, But in my mind is like yours,
it's it's the Route ninety one content.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Well, and and it's also not a lot of people
realize it, but it is America's largest mass shooting. It
was it was covered up, swept under the rug, back
to business as usual as fast as possible.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
But the thing about it is it was I mean
not only that it had so many aspects of it
that were not seen and other I mean, it was
like a new chapter for a book of describing uh,
you know, common characteristics of mass shootings, and this one
just broke that mold completely. Yeah, it's not like any

(05:14):
other any other shooting by any stretch of the imagination.
That just by the sheer numbers. You know, all of
the conspiracy stories that came out of it that you know,
some of them had some bite and some of them didn't. Uh.
And then you know, when you look at the effect
it had. But it is Vegas, and Vegas has a

(05:38):
way of getting business back to normal. We will quicker
than say, some other cities. And in doing so, it
created some other issues and a lot of questions that
were not getting answered by the mainstream media. So from
all their outlets, like myself and some others were literally
on the streets trying to get answers to the questions

(05:58):
that were being asked. Some you know, we're able to
do that, some not so not so much. But overall,
I think that one that isn't I certainly changed my life.
I know it changed a lot of people's lives, you know,
but you have to speak from your own personal experience,
and for me, it changed it in a completely new

(06:21):
new direction. And it's it's been an interesting, interesting experience.
But at the same time, I'm you know, when you
look back to what occurred and the the people that
were affected, the sheer number is just overwhelming. Uh, But
a lot of really amazing friendships came out of it.

(06:45):
And wherever there's evil, there's there's also ways to find good.
And I think that's, uh, that's.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
What I pull away from it.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
As best I can. You know, it's an experience that
I wouldn't want to go through again. I'll everyone would
want to give me something like that, but having been
through it, I would not change too many of the
things that I personally did to try to get answers
for questions. But it's it's it's still range as the

(07:17):
as the largest mass reading in the United States history,
and uh, it's it's it's hard to pull away from it.
It's all the all the affected that. You know, it's
the deep one, the deep one.

Speaker 5 (07:30):
It is, it is.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
And you know, you, you and Ram Dennison did an
amazing documentary with Money Machine, and you guys, before that
even happened, you you did some amazing investigative work into
not only the shooting, but the location, the fact that
and you had reported long long before they made it

(07:52):
official that the body had been moved by police, all
kinds of things. So let's let's start breaking some of
that stuff down real quick. I mean, to the point
that you were actively banned from win properties because of
going up the secret elevator in the back of the

(08:13):
hotel to or at least going to the private floor
in the elevator.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yeah, I had a wind something in me just said,
you know, this is this is what you want to do.
I mean, I've done so many different types of you know,
I don't wanna say career choices, but I've basically created
businesses in areas that I thought I would like a
lot more than I actually did when I got into it. Yeah,

(08:44):
but then when I started, uh, you know, because I
was always doing these investigations left and right, uh, you know,
kind of on the side, so to speak. For for
some and and for others, it was more straightforward. But
in working, you know, not being in law enforcement, you
don't have the actual access to some of the evidence.

(09:08):
So it makes it a lot more difficult to try
to determine what has happened or occurred as seeing even
though you have a lot of friends of experience and
well have you, but you don't have access to the evidence.
So you pretty much have a lot of access to
the same evidence that mainstream media has and you have
to decipher that. That's what money machine goes. Some of

(09:31):
the things that we had to do to determine what
actually happened. So some of the key things that were
being asked by the attorneys, which was truly the main motivator,
I started having with what the attorneys were asking and
what the victims of the victims' families and the survivors

(09:53):
were asking, or certain questions that this law enforcement was
not giving them the end and didn't seem like they
would ever probably get those answers. A classic example is
the first one, probably the one that seemed to get
me on the map, so to speak, was how did

(10:13):
he get those weapons to the room and how was
he able to get on that service elevator and so forth,
and so that that's the one that kind of you know,
put me in front of the pack. I guess on
some of that, but you know, they had hired several
investigators to try to figure this out, and then you
know I came up with, you know, with a way

(10:35):
to do that, and I did it fifty seven times
I went and no one has ever stopped me. I
was never questioned nothing. And I have a gift of
doing that due to my penetration testing, whether physical penetration testing,
which is a way that we go into a facility

(10:57):
to determine how strong the the security measures are or
if it's a cyber threat as well. The pintesting is
both you know physical and also you know going through
the cyber door. But you know, doing that with the
going up the elevators, we you know, I think on
the twenty seventh trip or twenty tooth trip, I took

(11:19):
Laura Loomer, we got that that video that we did
together on on Fox News, and you know, it created
some other questions. But the thing was is that when
you brought the win thing earlier, I kind of laugh
every time that comes up. Uh. You know, Steve Wynn,

(11:41):
the guy that basically created Vegas, was on a Sunday
morning show and it was on I believe it was
on Fox, and he basically stated that during the questioning
that no one had ever been on the service elevator
at a Win facility without security, and he had just

(12:04):
bragged about they had spent twenty six million dollars revamping
their security. They had you know, Chris from still Team six,
They had a whole bunch of different things they've done.
It took them over a year to do it to
prevent such a thing from happening. And when he specifically
stated no one had ever been on the service elevator there,

(12:25):
that was the first time that anyone had heard that
Paddick had probably taken the service elevator. So it's kind
of like a leak of information. But I immediately left
and went over to the wind and decided, well, I
have no idea what I'm doing or where I'm going
to go, but I'm going to try to figure out
how to get into.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
The service elevator.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
And I didn't just get on one of the service elevators.
I got them all five And when I left. I
told the security there what had just happened, what I
had done, and gave a card to them. I said,
have you had a security contact me and we can
you know, talk about this and see how we can
help you. And they were mad. They had a security er.

(13:08):
It was a female and she called them and she
basically told me that I was banned in their facilities
for life. And I haven't said I'd offered to tell
them how it was done and waggy, but they were
a little bit upset about that.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
Well, I get it, get and and you know what's funny.
I mean, I work in the events industry. Things like that.
I walk the back hallways of hotels all the time,
all the time. And it's it's a funny thing when
you think about it, because, yeah, when you're talking stop

(13:46):
infiltration in that kind of way, specifically social engineering in
that kind of way where it's like, hey, you know,
if you're seen around and that kind of stuff. If
if you're a familiar face or your face looks like
a familiar face, you know, or amiable, like feel free
to make eye contact, that makes people uncomfortable. Yeah, And

(14:11):
that's just it. Most people are most average people are
not willing to confront somebody in the back hallway saying like, hey,
you know, you don't look like you belong here.

Speaker 4 (14:23):
Yeah. Well, the thing is that once you're back there,
a lot of what I've noticed is that a lot
of people just assume if you're already there, then your
pat you've passed whatever security prodocol they have. Yeah, and
you have a reason to be there, especially if you
you know, if you you have to walk in like
you like you own it. You know, if you walk
out of the elevator, you don't like lean your head

(14:44):
out and look both ways and kind of like poke
around a corner or something like that. Yeah. So, yeah,
just just walked out. And the funny thing is in
the video that I did on doing the Win was
one of the elevators I walked out of went straight
into the back of their main kitchen. And I had
already committed. I had already committed to going into you

(15:06):
know what, you know, walking out and just six born
where I could go. And I walked into the back
of this kitchen and I, you know, those the chefs
were looking at me, and I was kind of like
a little taken.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Aback, but I looked around and right when I got.

Speaker 4 (15:22):
Out the elevator, I'd seen some French bowl uh you know,
French onion soup type bowls that you know you must
the cheese on top. I was only have you I
don't know if there's a certain name for him.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
And the chef.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
He looked at me and he says, can I help you?
I said, yeah, I just want to make certain that
you've got the the bowl cups and he goes, bowl cups,
Uh yeah, the bowl cups for the French onion.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Souper and he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they came
in there over here. I said, okay, great, all right,
well thank you, have a good night, and I walked
walked back into the latter. Oh man, I could believe it,
you know, that was that was the funniest but also
a scary moment for me.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
Because I've thought, oh, this is going to be ruined
right here. Someone is going to be changed me around
the back halls of the wind Casino. But uh, you know,
it is a it is a it's like the front
trying to be the Frank abog neil I want to
uh me if you can, yeah, trying to do that.

(16:26):
I did meet him a couple of times. And it's
interesting in some of the stories and some of the
stories over the years that I've had or you know,
somewhat some of them. Some of the things you have
to do. They have to be well rounded in several
different subject fields to be able to you know, get into,
you know, several situations or get yourself out of several

(16:47):
situations as you try to get in and capture the flags.
We kind of jokingly call it the penetration testing. You
generally have a goal to get to and once you
get there, it's basically you grabbed the flag, just like
in a video game y you come out and show
them that you got it, but that you know, that's

(17:10):
one aspect of it. There was a there's a couple
of things that, you know, to update the listeners on
some of the things that occurred that were a little interesting,
just to recap the shooting occurred and the the investigation
that occurred by the Las Vegas Metro Police that was

(17:33):
Sheriff Lombardo and also with the FBI. When you go
back to it, that was a year that was an
election year, so you had de Lombardo was running again
for sheriff and that created a series of events that

(17:53):
the public is not most of the public is not
very aware of. And the the the Sheriff's department was
too or Las Vegas Metro Police was supposed to release
all of their video there, you know, basically everything like
a four year request would have, and they were holding

(18:17):
it back, saying that it was going to cost, you know,
half a million dollars and all these different things, and
you just reason after reason to hold back to doing
but you have to. That's that's what the law is.
And and as they were finally admonished and in the
courts in the Supreme Court of California of Nevada basically

(18:40):
told them to h begin releasing, they started releasing it
in an odd order. It wasn't biologically, they didn't, you know,
it was like, okay, we got a batch the first
the first day, we got four videos and some other stuff.
And then and then it just came out in these
little little chunks every Wednesday, a ton of we had

(19:00):
to be down there and grab the CD and and
and head head back and and uh and then tried
to de stock for what we're looking at because there's
there's nothing realately came with it. It's just a redacted
you know, body worm camera video, which you know that
was you know, as far as the public side, that

(19:21):
was what every That was what we saw and that's
what is we remember. But as as an investigator, we
try to piece together the story that we're being told
by all of the video and audio that's coming out
as to what happened, and we're trying to rebuild those moments.
They had their narrative which was obviously being questioned in
the beginning about uh, the time that Face's campos made

(19:45):
it to the room, did he go up this elevator,
down the elevator, did he was on the thirty first floor,
was on the thirty third floor, which is in between
the thirty second floor where Padick was.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
So there's all these different questions.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
That were that we were trying to get Answesty that
we I felt that some of that video would give,
but we weren't receiving it in order. The one of
the key videos that we didn't get until.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
After the election, which really keyed in.

Speaker 4 (20:14):
On a problem, was when I think his officer meets
and memory serves on his name, and because this was
that moment, I don't remember exactly because he had he
was an officer that was on the thirty first floor,
just below the floors of the shooting, and he was
a training officer, so he had another officer with him

(20:35):
that was that was being trained, and he froze. He
literally had a moment where he was in the doorway.
You had this security from the Mandala Bay, which is
the Indian security there and uh and he pros in
that doorway and he had an opportunity or you know

(20:58):
it can be argued back and forth to get to
that room quickly and probably prevent some of these I
don't want to use the word carnage, but did for
lack of a better termament or some thing that came
to mind that was happening outside and and in training
for this type of an event, you do after a

(21:23):
couple other events occurred that they changed how they approached
mass shooting events of this nature. Is he goes directly
to the shooter and stop it, you know, regardless, and
that's what and he's a training officer that he should
have known known this, but he did freeze. That was
a key point that we felt that, Okay, this is

(21:44):
kind of proof that they have withheld other information as
well till after the election. An dedication point was we
were told that Officer Levi Hancock, who was the first
officer to the door when they breached the door into
into Patty's room.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
He was the first office to the door, and.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
We were told that he did not have his body
war on camera, that he had kept it. Well he did.
That video was just released about two and a half
months ago, well after I mean we're talking years after
the time it was supposed to be released. We were

(22:28):
never even told that it even existed. But you know,
our mutual friends that you remember, we're go and LVS
a Las Vegas. I can't stay his real name on
the air because he doesn't want to want that done.

(22:49):
But you know, he did some incredible work and he
did a four request and got that video. So we
now have the legal Hancock video. It sells a whole
another story about what happened. But yeah, I know you
and I have been to Vegas many many times, and
in Vegas did change a little bit after that. But

(23:15):
I think in some ways, and I hate to say it,
but I think security, you know, rams up a little bit,
but then it goes back to business as usual. And
that's that for me, is I have a problem with
that once you put some certain security protocols, not too

(23:35):
much where you're invasive in place that there are ways
to to you know, keep the public, say especially in
a public events that could be looked at. You know,
we learned from me to these events, and sometimes we
don't learn from me to these events. And that's that's

(23:56):
where we need to be a little bit more vigilant
and uh and unders why these things occur and how
to prevent them.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
In I will definitely say that I've seen a uh
more so, because yeah, I do. I do go a
few times a year, not as much as I once
did whenever we first met, Like I was in Vegas
ten to twelve weeks a year for work and now
I'm there about four weeks something like that. But even
at the various properties that I stay at while I'm there,

(24:29):
I've noticed a difference in the way that security is
handled going up the elevators and getting to your room.
And in addition to that, I've also noticed the fact
that uh there there seems to be at least more
more presence in back hallways of security than than there

(24:54):
ever was before. And that's a good thing. That's a plus. Ye,
but uh, it was. It was interesting whenever you guys
did the documentary, uh to to a talk to Stephen Paddock,
because y'all were basically the only ones that got exclusive
interviews with him.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
Things like that with their Eric yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Pat, Eric Paddick, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (25:18):
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah that it came about in a
in a in an odd way, but it is how
I I tend to do. Whenever I do an investigation,
I try to get as close to the sources of
information that would be most you know, detrimental or you know,

(25:39):
whatever it is for the case, to the answers of
the people that are asking me to do it. Normally
it's attorneys, or it's a family that that needs answer
as to why something happened and so forth. And these
are sadic events. I normally do, you know, very high
profile cases and and you know, you do some medium

(26:02):
profiles as well. But in between those, you start to
learn that there's a certain way to get to the
person that has what you do, what you need as
far as nine times out of ten, it's just information.
And in this case, it was you know, I felt
that Steven Paddock's brother Eric was going to be the

(26:24):
best source of information, but he was very elusive. There
was only the interviews he did the day dead and
the day after the shooting. That was it there. He
didn't do any interviews. He didn't want to talk to
anyone and what have you. But I called and left
a couple of messages, and I guess one of the messages,

(26:46):
you know, made sense to him, and he called me
back and he says, uh, you know, why should I
be talking to you? And we had a we had
a talk and I talked to him for about an
hour and he saw that I guess I was in
it for the right reasons. I charged nobody a dime

(27:06):
for the investigative services that I did, and I just
felt like it was important. And he he was on board,
you know, and he gave information that you know, that
explained exactly what happened. We had the motive, which is
the most elusive thing that the media kept placing on

(27:28):
on this particular event, was the motive was missing. They
couldn't figure out why he did it. Sixty four year
old man seemed to be relatively successful, had a girlfriend,
loves going to Vegas. Blah, blah blah. Isn't that you know,
why would he why would he do this? You know,
he didn't have a note that he left behind. There
was no manifesto of any sort, nothing that would be

(27:51):
an indicator as to as to why it happened. And
that was one of the first areas I explored with Eric,
and we have since become, you know, pretty good friends.
And in talking to him, you know, it's it's kind
of weird because when you're with him, you and you
have the presence the very it looks very similar to

(28:12):
his brother, and so it's it creates a whole nother
aura of a conversation. But that's kind of like a
private thing, I guess, But I just wanted to make
the public because it can explain some of the these
things that you go through as an investigator where you're
trying to get to the crux of the situation and

(28:34):
you're trying to get down into the meat of it
to find out, you know, why this's happened in the
motive with it, the FBI can figure it out. They
had this the behavioral analysis in the beau come in
and do something with twenty five different experts that they
hired from outside and they came up with the basically

(28:55):
the same conclusion that we did, you know, two years prior.
But that was a whole nother event if you remember correctly,
when they when they did reveal what the motive was.
And I can do that as well, if any please please, Yeah,
the the whenever you receive a report from any agency

(29:20):
about a event such as this, you're expecting to see
a large report. You know, the Las Vegas Metro they had,
you know, their report that they came out with that
was fairly fairly well done. There was some you know,
quite a few errors in it, but but you know,
we could They came out with a preliminary report and

(29:43):
then they had their their final report, but they couldn't
do they couldn't put the motives together. And all of
these reports that come out, you generally expect to see
a rather large report. The BAU their report was two
and a half pages. That was it, and it read
like a top ten list as to, you know, why

(30:06):
this happened, and it had that era of a like
a late night TV show, top ten reasons why this
event occurred kind of thing, and that was it, and
that was the two and a half pages. It was just,
you know, each a little aspect of it which kind
of mirrored what Eric and I had determined previously, which

(30:26):
was he had a man he was sixty four years old,
obviously had some issue which is never determined to be
diagnosed or anything as far as him having a true
mental issue, but he had he had an issue, and
he his experience was was in going to casinos. He

(30:49):
got into a pattern where he was doing quite well.
He wasn't like a super big hitter, but he was.
He was in the upper echelon of of where they
would be, and they started changing his reward. They did
it in Reno when he was he was you know,
the larger, larger fish in Reno because it was a

(31:09):
much you know, smaller pond. But as they as this
came back, it create it created a whole new scenario
and he would have his points taken away, or he
wouldn't make as many points, or or what have you,
because you know, the casino just kind of changed the game.

(31:32):
And that happened in Reno, and so he switched to
Vegas and started happening there. So that was an aspect
he was also his passion was flying and so he enjoyed,
you know, having his plane and taking it and you know,
going wherever he wanted to go with his family or wherever.

(31:53):
And once he was diagnosed with high blood pressure, the
medication that was given to him, what his medication that
he could not handle, apparently did not. It created more issues.
That's just go that way. And in doing so, since
he couldn't take that, then that meant that he couldn't

(32:16):
pass his flight physical for you know, for the for
the f A, and that created another issue where they
removed his.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
License from him, so he couldn't fly.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
The other problems with the medication is that he couldn't
uh well just they performed in the bedroom to the
to the degree that he once could. So that created
that issue. And so it was just one thing after
another after another, just the main things that were given
him drive to to do what every wanted to do.

(32:51):
We're we're being taken away from him and uh, you know,
the average person may get through it in their own way.
The we you know, you don't go out and do
what he did. Yeah, but for him, he wanted to
get back at the gaming community for creating the series

(33:12):
of events that he felt that I guess uh, you know,
affected him. And you know, he had done well, but
he had lost some quite a bit of money, you know,
in the two years leading up to this. But but
he was still quite well off. I mean, he had

(33:32):
plenty to carry on. There's even a thirty three thousand
dollars you know, uh slot machine or you know, take
it because he played video poker, so they produced like
just like slot machines. Ticket it was in his room,
that was part of the inventory. So he was doing well,
and he gambled over a million dollars the week that

(33:53):
led up to the shooting. But the way it was
carried out out was unlike anything anyone had ever seen.
There was just you know, it's it's difficult enough to
try to profile and determine if that person coming through

(34:13):
your door that's running a room is going to be
the next you know, uh, you know Las Vegas shooter,
or if it's going to be you know, you have
a guy and so some people, you know, there is
no iron clad way to determine that. But there are
some measures to put in place that won't be invasive

(34:37):
and won't really change the customer's overall experience at their facilities.
But they need to be done. And unfortunately, uh, you know,
we still have a very high rate of of mass
shooting events, and you know, we haven't found the.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Well, we found a couple of answers.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
But implementing them across the board is another thing. Because
our country enjoys its freedoms, our second Amendment is obviously
a key. And uh, you know that's not going to
go anywhere any tension. I don't expect it too, and
I I mean, personally I don't want it to.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
But yeah, I was going to say, the whole, the
whole bump stock situation came, and and impending lawsuits that
came after that for bump stock and everything else came
came from this yase it did it is bump stocks
in the shooting.

Speaker 4 (35:38):
Yeah, and and and that's also where a lot of
people thought that it was fully automatic gunfire. But you know,
technically it wasn't, but it may as well have been
because it fired at a very similar rate to like
I saw two forty or something. But the the the
bump stock, the the creator of the bump stock, he

(36:00):
was sued and they ended up the Supreme Court basically
banned that device like they had done many Before that,
there's been many devices that basically.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Convert your average.

Speaker 4 (36:17):
I almost say average, because for some people in AR
fifteen is not average. But you take an air fifteen
and you add a device to it, and it essentially
creates what becomes a fully automatic weapon, or that gives
you the feel of the sense of a fully automatic weapon,
when in fact, you know you still have to pull

(36:37):
the trigger and you still have to do other things
to make it function in a way that causes it
to seem like an automatic, and you also lose your accuracy.
You know, you're not going to be super accurate with
the bump stock. But the problem is is that he
had the advantage of elevation on the thirty second floor.

(37:00):
He was aiming down into a concert which had been
reported to have twenty two thousand people on it at
that event, but that evening was around ten or maybe
twelve thousand, because it's close to the end, and it
was you know, the third day and the Sunday night
and so forth. But the you know, from that advantage,

(37:22):
you know, using those weapons and instead of changing out clips,
which would you know, create another issue that possibly him
jamming the weapon, he just would grab another weapon he
had twenty three with them in the room. That's a lot.
So and with that, Yeah, and he he was able
to expend. There were eleven hundred rounds. You know, he

(37:44):
injured over eight hundred and some other people, four hundred
directly with weapon fire and some indirectly by the you know,
by the events that occurred after the weapon fired. You know,
he had fifty eight people that died that night. He
had two more that has died since then due to
some various complications. I don't want to get into the

(38:06):
details of it because it's private for the individuals, but
you know, they should come to this event as well.
So it's the you know, the number of sixty because
everybody wants to know how many there are. Fifty eight
and then became sixty. So we don't ever want to

(38:26):
see something like that again. And it's there's no contest
here for someone to have the highest come out. But
I'm I'm happy that it has not occurred.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
But again, in any mass shooting scenario, you do know,
you you'll hear your Valdie, You'll you'll hear you know, Florida,
You'll still hear Columbine. Yeah, and Sandy hook All kinds
of things you don't hear, but the largest you don't

(39:00):
you know, you know, on October you don't, you don't
hear it. It is the forgotten and the unsung. Nobody
talks about it, and it is it is literally the
largest mashoot once again, sixty people ultimately dead from the
actions just of him, just of him. That and that
doesn't include the other people that were injured due to

(39:24):
trampling all kinds of things, shrapnel and and let's let's
get into some of the cause. The theories and hypotheses
were wild out there and hey, hey, I have him
out there too, feel free to go listen to dudes
and beer folks. But I remember my hypothesis of you know,

(39:49):
he was at one point in accountant at Lockheed Martin
and and had flown on Janet planes things like that.
So it was like, what if, what if he was
part of the disclosure movement and had had seen things
and wanted to wanted to release it, you know, I

(40:11):
wanted to come clean, so to speak.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
And there was quite a few scenarios that were that
were put out and part of the reason that there
were so many different uh I hate he using term
conspiracy theories, but that that is they were. There's so many, Yeah,
there's so many conspiracy theories that were that were being
brought forward because you know, NG almost controlling the narrative.

(40:38):
They weren't letting information come out. And so if people,
you know, don't.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Kept changing timelines like every other day.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
Yeah yeah, and he even you know, you know, to
La Marti's credit, he did say that that would change.
But the problem is it's not that it was changing,
it's who was causing the change and who was basically
in control at that point. It wasn't the Sheriff's department.
It was clearly MGM was managing that timeline. When my

(41:10):
when the video, the only video that exists outside of
Mandaliba or MGM as far as the shooting is concerned,
that CCTV footage is the footage that I acquired, and
that you know that that footage, which unfortunately shows the
demise of an individual, of a female for names Melissa Ramirez.

(41:34):
I don't want to not say her name because she
needs to be honored. But the the the the scenario
that played out that allowed me to get that video
was an exact situation that since we weren't getting information,
don't no one was releasing anything. We had to start
looking for ourselves. I literally was looking for evidence as

(41:58):
if I was working inside the FBI, are working inside
any agency or Las Vegas Metro And I was going
in places to see what I could find out that,
you know, going up and down the elevators. That was
a question that the attorneys had, you know, and the
the attorney had that was Craig Island, and he used
to be a senator in Texas and he was on Foxing.

(42:19):
He says, we want to know how we got the
weapons to the room. Okay, here's your answer. So I
contacted them and let him know, Hey, here's the video
of me doing the actual going up and down the
service elevators and using the exact same one that did
the eatcuse. And I was never confronted. So that was

(42:42):
an answer. The other question was, you know, obtaining video
of this some of the very important part of this
event that you spoke about Janet Airlines, the camera that
was actually throwing towards the two tanks that he had
fired at, the two big big field tanks, and also

(43:03):
Janet Airlines is literally right behind it.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah, yeah, and that was that was part of the
reason of my hypothesis was was that you know, he's
he's shooting directly in the area of of the fuel
tanks and actually one of the fuel tanks.

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Yeah, that that was one that brought up a lot
of stuff. The automatic gun fire people saying that especially
the the bumpstock gunfire echoing inside of that cube of
buildings brought up numerous questions about multiple shooters. There was

(43:42):
a shooter in the tunnel of of the tram system
going between properties that that the Saudi the Saudi royal
family was involved, like it got thick.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
And oh yeah, and you know, the ownership of the
Four Seasons Hotel of top because you know, when people
saw where the what the shooting was coming from, you know,
they assumed it was higher than it was, but it was,
you know, just the thirty second four the Four Seasons
starts tall higher than that. And also some of when

(44:17):
the autopsy report came out and basically was identifying the
the wounds that these people were having, you know, some
being shot, you know what would seem to be vertical
from from you know, a shot coming from the head
through the torso and out you know lower they were
thought they were being shot from overhead. And so the

(44:40):
helicopter theory, which is probably the most predominant theory, and
that's put forward by a person of the name of
John Colin and uh me and him has had many
rounds of of the beef that we have had for years.
Uh yeah, it's quite comical to some degree, but it's
all a very serious At the other end of putting

(45:03):
out accurate information, it's very difficult to do when you
have a lot of people that are knocking at yours Andy, Hey,
you know we've got proof to shot. You know, people
were shot by helicopters, and and when they looked at
the proof, they don't look at it from a forensic
standpoint that a lot of people were bending over to

(45:23):
try to avoid being shot. So naturally, yes, people would
would have the bullet entry when come in pathways through
the front if your head's towards the Mandali Bay and
you're rearing.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
The other direction, and yeah, that's going to happen.

Speaker 4 (45:38):
And you know, from all intensive purposes, and people visualize
these things after they get a description of the wound,
and yeah, it sounds like the person was shot from overhead.
So that that fuel you know, that theory, and then
you had ninjas in the trees, and I mean, there
was just so many. In fact, the entire algorithm of
YouTube was changed, which destroyed my channel, but the YouTube

(46:03):
was changed. The algorithm was changed on YouTube to address
the concerns of the people that were being shown all
these different conspiracy theories. It was just too much, you know,
and so YouTube made the decision to just basically ban
any information that didn't had anything to do with the
Las Vegas shooting and they didn't have time to filter

(46:25):
it to determine, you know, what the other events were,
but that that was that's what happened.

Speaker 3 (46:33):
And you know, it's interesting. I just brought that up
to somebody the other day. They made a post about
how their Instagram was or their TikTok rather was was
banned yep, you know, and free speech was being canceled,
and I was like, you know, the funny thing is,
and they were, they were putting a lot of stuff

(46:55):
out about three I Atlas things like that. It's like,
you know, there are some platforms that eventually the algorithm
gets you when you are posting things that seem to
be false against the actual against the actual science that's
reported things like that, and that was that was something

(47:17):
that even happened on Google to alternative health sites and
and even even even even like spiritual healers things like
that that I know after COVID because of the algorithms
changing to get rid of medical disinformation, and they just

(47:40):
they said all like, no, no, I'm going to help
heal you. You use the word heal. Algorithm caught youa
and it delisted your mediumship site, you know where where
you have spiritual direction and spiritual healing.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
Yep. And it's extremely frustrating on a on a content
creator's end, and that you put a lot they don't
realize that there's a lot of time and effort that
goes into doing these. In my case, you know, the
investigative side was, you know, I wasn't reporting on what
someone else had done. It's kind of odd, you know,

(48:18):
kind of in a different category, I guess. And that
not only was a reporting on what was happening, I
was going to get the information and then doing so,
I actually became the story to some degree. And and
and that you know allowed me to get you know,
as accurate of information as you can possibly get so
I felt like the information I was putting out and

(48:41):
to this day I still feel, you know, it has
been proven time and time again that the information was accurate.
That YouTube decided to basically wipe the board of everybody,
which you know, took away those accounts, So there's a
lot of you know, some of the stuff, you know,
say five percent of the people that were affected were

(49:05):
you know, probably legitimate, where ninety five percent of the
information was coming out during the preliminary parts of the
investigation in Las Vegas were essentially people just grasping at
straws or making up their own stories, like the helicopter
theory and some of these other things that came out.
But it also showed that there were some people that

(49:27):
were trying to do these things, but they just were
not necessarily in a position to determine, like the audio
of of of the things, you know, the weapons being
shot and carrying the echoes and knowing that the echoes
are echoes of the exact same shot that was just
fired off of another building, and that created the sense

(49:50):
of multiple shooters, which we talked about earlier, and that
was that was probably the key conspiracy at the beginning
of it was that there were multiple years, you know,
he had them on top of those those two towers
that were across the street from Endo La Bay. And
you know, I decided, Hey, I'm I'm gonna I'm going
to jump the fence and go in there, and I'm

(50:11):
going to go inside and see if it's possible that
someone would have done it from this location. And of
course I go in there and no one else had
done this. They talked about those two towers and someone
was shitting at the top of the towers, but they
didn't go to the towers to see if someone could
even get to the top of the towers. It's just
all these things weren't weren't after another, you know, which

(50:32):
which hampered a lot of people getting answers to the
questions they were asking. Yeah, and the families deserve to know,
you know, what really happened. I mean, no one wants
to be a part of the situation that they later
find out was completely false, fabricated, you know, you know,

(50:53):
like Alex Jones situations, you know, with Sandyok as a
parent or as a family member, as a parent of
obviously say of victim or a family member of someone
from Las Vegas. We don't want that premise to prevail

(51:13):
that you know, that a odd situation occurred that turns
into the chief conspiracy theory that is not true. But
there are these situations that occur that we have to remember.
So a lot of times we are being told things
and the conspiracy theory is no longer a theory, it

(51:35):
actually becomes the fact. So all this information has to
exist together. You just have to weed through it to
find out, you know, which ones are the answers that
are correct for you under your particular situation. And you know,
a lot of times it goes one way or another.

(51:55):
But the ones that we remember are the ones that
you know down the road were actually true, you know,
and you know more more often than not, and.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Involves the government.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
So uh, you know, we have to take that with
a grain of salt. I guess sometimes depending on you know,
who's doing the reporting and what's being reported on.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
I'd love to disagree with you on that fact, you know.
But it's like we say on the show all the time,
like it's they it's hard to hold them accountable because
anytime they go before Congress, they pretty much hold their
hand up and straight up lie and it's one of
those what do you expect them to do? That's literally

(52:36):
what they do.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
Yeah, it's almost that that that's the that's their m
O when they when they go into something, it's we're
going to create a situation or a situation has already
been created that we didn't create, but we're going to
allow it to fester and to turn into something bigger
by either answering questions or not answering questions. Either way
they go, they tend to want to add to the
dis info. And yet we have this the Senate, you know,

(53:04):
and the House that both have to committees to prevent
this very kind of thing, but they even in.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Some places propeculate, so you never know, you never know.

Speaker 4 (53:16):
It's very difficult, you know, but you know, over time
we will generally correct most of the issues that go
south on us, you know, as far as getting the
correct information. But in the beginning throws of like the
Las Vegas shooting, it was incredibly difficult with the amount
that was coming out to try to try to get

(53:40):
to the meat of it. That's why I did the
audio forensics as fast as I could, because I wanted
to have that done before the FBI did their version
of it. I was able to determine the moments of
certain shots that were there, that were fired in certain
locations and directions, and including I was the only person
that came out with the time of the actual got

(54:04):
where Paddick had. I don't know whether there's any go
on your video, but unlived themselves. I kind of that
term just doesn't sit well with me.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
But you know, that was an important question for the attorneys,
and I got.

Speaker 4 (54:19):
That answer for them, and apparently the FAI had never
been able to figure it out, so got it for
them too, I guess. But you know, there's so many
I guess a lot of times people don't realize how
complex an investigation can become, all all of the nuances

(54:40):
and the little little things that go along with it,
especially when you're a one man band and you do
your own audio furnsis, you do your video forensics, and
you're going up in your actually retrieving physical evidence, which
I shouldn't have been able to do. But you know,
to this day, I still have you know, glass from
from that room, and I wanted to test it to

(55:02):
determine if the you know, if the windows had been
shot out that they had been hammered out or what
have you, and was able to do that, and that
that's kind of odds. It's not a common scenario where
you can do it. But you know that happened. You know,
there's just so much that investigation it was. It was
three years of digging through thousands of hours of video,

(55:30):
uh and audio determined I actually occurred.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
And once again, it was almost two years before we
had any kind of official report for anything, and even
then it was uh cursory at best.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
With what we've got. Yeah, the report from Las Vegas
and the report from Las Vegas Metro, you know, their
preliminary and I called it the fit report because the
fifth team is who did that part of the infiations
And normally you would think it would be the Homicide division,

(56:10):
but it ended up seeing a different division. But in
the same thing with the FBI, the FBI didn't have
their own report team out there. They hired twenty five
different experts to go through the evidence that had been acquired.
There's basically the same evidence that most of us had
access to to determine what had happened, but they didn't.

(56:31):
It was one of the questions I asked Eric I said,
you know, wouldn't it make sense that you would be
you know, like just like I'm doing it as a reporter,
so as an investigator class journalist, I'm trying to determine
what actually occurred, and I would go to the closest
person to Steven to determine, you know, how this occurred.

(56:52):
That would be his brother Eric, And in doing so,
that would make sense that the FBI would do the
same thing. But they didn't. They only to him that
one time, maybe a couple of calls, follow up a
little bit, but you know, he was rather upset when
he went there because there was a lot of things
going wrong, so their their meetings were not way. Maybe

(57:19):
that has something to do with it. I don't know,
but I'm proud of what proud of what I did.
I was very uh satisfied with the answers that I
was able to come up with. And it's nothing like
going into a family member or survivor and them saying, hey,

(57:43):
did this, did this happen this way? Or am I
being told? You know what? Am I being told here?
And to be able to give them the answers that
they're looking for and that that that for me was
probably the biggest thing. And I'm I can't take that
experience away from anyone, and I if I can make

(58:07):
the situation better in some way to get people answers.
So what happened, And that's enough for me. I'm happy
about that.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Well, and you guys, you, you and Ram definitely got
some answers, uh, and even even you know, as far
as where the money from the relief fund win things
like that, Like this story goes so deep and it
has so many tendrils into so many different facets of
the Las Vegas community.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
Yeah, because there was the there was the whole Vegas
Strong movement and everything else, and that that literally the
money from that just went away. They finally, they finally
ended up getting a memorial put up, but it's not
on the site.

Speaker 4 (59:01):
It's the only one like that I've ever seen where
where a memorial of you know, especially with such an
event like this, is not only not at the site,
it's nowhere near the site. It's nine it's like nine
miles away. It's literally downtown. It's right next to an

(59:21):
adult you know, toy store.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
If you want to call it that, I mean, you're
hard not to, Like you could put a baby food
store in Vegas and it'd be next to an adult
toy store.

Speaker 4 (59:33):
All right, Yeah, that's true. I will say the memorial
just there is very It was very touching, very heartwarming,
and it was very well done as far as what
they had to work with. But now that they're you
know that they have put the community together to put
the memorial where it basically you know, it should be,

(59:55):
which is at that site. You know, I appreciate that
the fact that they finally got around to doing that,
because it was very frustrating is for a lot of
people that they would they would go there and they'd
go to where this event occurred, and there's and they
would see nothing. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
You know, we put up the Melissa Ramirez.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Memorial, which is you know, at the site that where
she actually passed. And you know that that was just
a self funded, uh group of people. We all got
together and and and made that happen.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
And uh, you know, there's a.

Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Lot of frustrating events that occurred during this trying to
get people to do what we you know, everyone would
think would be the right thing, but it's Vegas and
that kind of made it made it different because that
Vegas doesn't want a lot of attention towards up such

(01:01:00):
a stuff of this, and I kind of understand it,
but at the same time, it did happen, you have
to address it, and it needs to be done in
a way that you know, it works where the family
is involved and the survivors and so forth. It can't
be just you know, some you know, some government committee

(01:01:20):
and making a decision well let's put it nine miles
awayte of out of sight, out of mind kind of thing.
And so I'm glad that that's coming back to where
it should be.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Absolutely me too, And Mike, I want to thank you
as always for making time for me in your life
as well as making time for the show, but also
for all the work that you've done for these victims,
all the work that you do for victims all over
the place of human trafficking, all kinds of stuff. You

(01:01:56):
are always out there working behind the scenes. I want
to hardily thank you, uh for coming mo tonight and
talking about this. I'm glad we finally got to do
it because it's something that, uh, it made me sad
the last couple of times where we didn't even get
to touch it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
Yeah, yeah, well yeah, I had what I thought it
was three boys and ended up being something else. But
oh yeah it was. It was a rough few weeks
and it happened right over the March over weekend.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Man, this is I need to be on this story.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
We had planned to do it and I just couldn't.
I couldn't even speak. I mean I had a new voice.
Yeah yeah, but yeah, I'm glad we got to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
Absolutely absolutely. Let everybody know where they can go to
follow you, where they can go to keep up with
everything that is Mike turber in five by five minutes.

Speaker 4 (01:02:53):
Uh, probably your your your your your best way to
keep current it's going to be, you know, through x
formerly known as Twitter, also YouTube, which I still am
affected by the algorithm problems that they have, so you know,
I have to deal with that. But those two spots
and also on under my own name on TikTok, you

(01:03:17):
can also see some of the stuff that I that
I do there, which is Mike turb or t orbr
and that would be the best. But if anyone needs
to reach out to me for any reason or what
have you, each of those locations just send me a DM.
I do answer all my dms, and you have to
have a question about the shooting or or any of

(01:03:38):
the investigations I've done, and I'll be more than happy
to talk to you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
Absolutely. And while you're online checking all that out, folks,
make sure to stop on by IMDb. That's where you
can see the trailer for money Machine, Behind the Lies,
the one October cover up.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
You can find that on Apple TV, all kinds of platforms,
and of course don't forget to stop on by Curious Research.
Curiousresearch dot org is where you can find everything Curious Research.
That's also where you can find links to Curious Realm,
where you can like, follow, subscribe in our videos page
where you can find all of the video platforms, all

(01:04:19):
of the YouTube channels of our guests, including five by
five and Mike Turber. Mike Turber, once again, thank you
so much again, buddy, you take care. We will be
in touch with links all that kind of good stuff
as usual. When we get back from this quick break, everybody,
we will be joined by our good friend a Selene.

(01:04:42):
We will be talking about the topic of belief and
paranormal investigation, how that affects our investigations, how that affects
the way we look at things. How that also affects
the way that we experience things. We will be talking
about belief and Paara investigation with Anseline right after this.

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
Folks.

Speaker 5 (01:05:14):
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(01:06:37):
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part of fifty dollars or more. Our guest in this
segment is our amazing and good friend and Selene. You
can find all of her work not only at medium

(01:07:47):
dot com Everything Else, but also at ansolene dot com.
She is a research into paranormal Fortian studies. Things like
that and I wanted to have her on to discuss
one of the topics that I hold near and dear
to my heart, the idea of belief, especially when it
comes to the paranormal. And you know, it's interesting, I

(01:08:12):
say it on the show pretty regularly. I'm a former
Catholic seminary and I spent one year study a whole
grand year everybody study is studying to be a Catholic seminarian.
But there's something fascinating about the Church that has always
been that still is that a lot of people do
not realize. And I'll start off right now with what

(01:08:36):
I believe before we get into how belief affects paranormal
and paranormal investigations. Growing up Roman Catholic, we said the
nice see and Creed the beginning of every Mass. We
still say the niceye in Creed. It's a reformed nice
see in Creed as of a few probably about ten

(01:08:57):
years ago now, but it begins with we believe in
One God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and Earth,
of all things seen and unseen. Like that is the
opening salvo of the nice see in Creed, the creator

(01:09:18):
of all things seen and unseen. So by definition, by
the very definition of the pillars of faith of the
Catholic Church. And then it goes into Jesus Christ, the
only Son eternally we gotten to the Father, God, from God, life,
from Light, true God, from true God. We've gotten, not
made one in being with the Father. Through him, all
things were made for us men, and for our salvation.

(01:09:40):
He came down from heaven, and so forth and so forth.
But that first part, all things seen and unseen like
that means we are hip deep in the paranormal. Was
Catholics to begin with. We begin with the fact that

(01:10:00):
the paranormal is real and our Creator created that. Yeah,
and that's that's an interesting thing to lean on as
a Catholic. It's an interesting thing. It allows for miracle,
it allows for all kinds of things. And but when

(01:10:20):
you're talking specifically about the experience of paranormal, as we
talk about all the time with you and with other people,
it really is about that acceptance of experience, you know,
and the the ability to accept that you've had an experience,
whether you can explain it or not through phenomenology what

(01:10:43):
have you. That that's totally different.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
But like we say all the time, it doesn't remove
the experience.

Speaker 6 (01:10:51):
Right exactly. And first of all, I want to thank
you so much for having me back on. It's always
an honor to be here. And you know, I wasn't
aware of the creed or that it said also the unseen,
So that's that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
And I'll bring up the new nice and Creed just
so we are clear, folks of all things visible and invisible,
all right. So it didn't really change, right, reframed some
of the phraseology because now instead of you know, being,

(01:11:29):
instead of the old nice and Creed where it's you know,
eternally begotten of the Father, it's phrased differently things like that,
but it still says visible and invisible.

Speaker 6 (01:11:40):
Right right, No, And that's incredible. And you know, the
thing about belief is that I mean, for me in
my belief right, it's it affects absolutely every fabric of
our lives. And I think or believe rather that you know,

(01:12:04):
we talk about manifestation all the time, and so the
different things that I think or feel or project are
then brought back to me. And so I believe that
our belief completely makes up our whole reality. You change
one simple thought, you can change your entire reality. Now

(01:12:25):
when we go into the paranormal and how do I
want to open this up.

Speaker 4 (01:12:31):
I think.

Speaker 6 (01:12:32):
We'll open it up with a harder topic, which is,
you know, my personal experience that I know that I've
shared before one time on here where I was a
child and I had a very traumatic experience, and I
thought that, I mean, for most of my life, I
believed that it could have been an alien encounter, that

(01:12:54):
there was an alien in my room, that it touched
my back. However, I would find out much later, a
year or so ago, that it was not any kind
of a paranormal event. It was a very real human event. However,
the human mind is so adaptable but also very fallible.

(01:13:20):
So if we have the building blocks for a certain
type of belief, and we have a traumatic experience, then
our brain can pull from these different pools within our
mind and put these puzzle pieces together to create this
new memory. And then so but we have to have

(01:13:41):
the building blocks of that particular belief before the brain
will create that new memory.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:49):
Yeah, this is quite literally the flaw that I have
with Stephen Greer saying that the Betty and Barney Hill
abduction episode was a case of my labs where they
were taken by a rogue Air Force unit, and memories
implanted to the fact that I actively had our friend

(01:14:14):
Kathleen Martin on the show, the niece of Betty and
Barney Hill, to refute his claims because there were things like,
wait a minute, how about that star map that she
came back with a binary star system that we didn't
know was binary at the time. How about like also
just the fact of it's a biracial couple, you know,
who wasn't trying to draw attention to themselves in the

(01:14:37):
nineteen fifties, a biracial couple. They were trying to like
make news headlines about, hey, we were abducted by aliens.
But you also have the issue of you have to
have a trope that is acceptable to the mind to
begin with, to be able to implant it exactly. And

(01:14:57):
when alien abduction wasn't really like a hot button topic,
It wasn't in tabloid magazines or anything like that. So
how are you going to implant a memory for a
trope that isn't really out there right right?

Speaker 6 (01:15:14):
Which is which is so important to note. And and this,
you know, this line of thinking, this line of talking
can really help us get closer to the truth and
to the things that are really genuine. I want to
add in something else that I know that I've brought
up before as well. This is the night myopia. So

(01:15:35):
you know, of course, our eyes do not see anything
like any kind of animal does. We have a very
hard time seeing as soon as it gets dark outside,
so then we become near sighted and we're going to
see shadows. That's just how it works, because our eyes
are focusing, refocusing, and just you know, kind of like
a like the camer lens, you know, and our brains

(01:15:59):
don't underderstand what we're seeing. So if we're out in
the woods and we're searching for sasquatch or dog man
or whatever it is, then we have So that's the
seed of belief right right there. We're out there searching
for X. So then our eyes and our physiology starts

(01:16:20):
doing something funny and our brain goes, hey, what's going on.
We have to adapt, We have to watch for you know,
things that could harm us. Now we're alert. Now we're
you know, and the mind is racing. So to survive,
we need our brain needs to put those puzzle pieces

(01:16:41):
together and create a story so that we don't break,
so the adrenaline doesn't get too high so that you
know whatever it is. So then all of a sudden,
those shapes that we think we're seeing are now the
shape of whatever it is that we were out there
to try to find. And then further, if we have

(01:17:04):
the building blocks of say the more wu side of things,
if that's an okay terminology with the Sasquatch being abducted
by aliens or mind speaking or uh, what is that?
Like the teleporting and the invisibility. Yeah, now we are

(01:17:25):
going to be like, oh, when those shapes come in
and out, right, when the shadows go in and out,
now we're going to say that it's it's teleporting, especially
if we look over in a different area and now
we're seeing another shadow, but that the shadow is the
same thing over here now that it was over here. Yeah,
it's just the way that our brain and eyes are

(01:17:46):
talking to each other using the seeds of the belief
that we've had.

Speaker 3 (01:17:54):
Yeah, yeah, precisely, because that is that is our greater
frame of reference, is what we hold to be true
within the fabric of our reality, and and that maybe
goes beyond what we have even just been exposed to
and and you know that brings us, of course where

(01:18:16):
we normally go with this, which is that that dangerous point,
especially with investigation of you know, the the cognitive dissonance
and not allowing something that goes against what you believe,
but that that before we even get there, that idea
of belief once again informs so much. It even informs

(01:18:40):
whether or not you are out investigating, yes, you know,
and if you're willing to investigate, because there there are
two different camps even with that, and that is the
fact of you believe so much that you don't need
to investigate, and and those that leave so little that

(01:19:01):
they investigate to want to find out more possibly and
and yeah, that's that even in and of itself, brings
about a didactic of mentality, right.

Speaker 6 (01:19:18):
Yeah, you know, And that's that's the thing, is when
we have an experience that maybe goes against our beliefs,
it's it's interesting how we search for the answers to
try to come up with you know, we try to
put it in the box even when it doesn't fit.

(01:19:40):
And this is where I think things can become dangerous
for the field, is when we're trying to force our
beliefs onto a situation, a research topic of you know,
an investigation, or another person, or even our audience. It
really does a disservice to ourselves and the field as

(01:20:01):
a whole. However, our beliefs are so ingrained in us
that to have a belief system, how do you say,
deconstructed maybe or poked at or questioned. It's like the
fabric of the whole of the person is being questioned.

(01:20:23):
It is this entire rejection dysphoria that is now taking
over and they feel threat It's like you're being chased
by a lion. Yeah, and so that's where it gets
really and here again, if I may go ahead, this
is also why I advocate so much for therapy. It's

(01:20:43):
not that nobody needs to just go because there's something
wrong with them, but to know thyself, to be able
to really understand yourself, understand your triggers and all that
kind of thing, because we don't want to bleed our
wounds onto the field, onto our audience.

Speaker 4 (01:21:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:05):
So well, well, because there is the imposition of thought,
you know, and and it you know, it comes into play,
and a lot of things it comes into play. It's
one of the reasons why I say not just personally
all the time to people the investigative wise, to people,

(01:21:26):
stop having the conversation on the way to the table. Yeah,
go to that table as blank slate as possible. You
know why you're going to the table. You know what
the general conversation is going to be. But don't have
the conversation in the car while you're sitting in traffic
on the way to the meeting at Starbucks or something

(01:21:48):
like that, because at that point you are imposing upon
that person what you think they're going to say, which
means you're actively like mixing the mortar to help build
the wall before you ever get there. Because naturally, after
you hear that person respond in your head, you're going

(01:22:08):
to salvo back, and then before you know it, there's
an actual conversation going on right that the steiny's you
being able to just hear the person on the grounds
that they are because now you've put a voice into
their head already and into their mouth. Then you've put

(01:22:29):
you've put emotion behind that voice, and you've put motivations
behind that voice.

Speaker 6 (01:22:35):
Yeah, well think of it as well. On the way
to an investigation, be it for sasquatch or a haunted house.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:22:43):
Yeah, that's especially because now you can really affect the
outcome of the investigation. You can plant those seeds. I mean,
we all have fear. We all have I mean, no
matter what, the fear of the unknown is at the
root of everything. So whenever we're in a dark place,

(01:23:04):
we're always going to have a level of fear because
we can't see, we have senses that are you know, damp,
and because of our environment and so belief then in
regards to what you were saying, can completely affect and
re route if you will, the outcome of an investigation

(01:23:27):
before it's ever started.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
Yeah. Yeah, And and they granted, folks, this is this
is no admonition upon the people of faith. I'm a
person of faith, and the you know, uh big, big question,
and what do you believe? Like personally, spiritually, what do

(01:23:54):
you believe?

Speaker 6 (01:23:56):
Okay, So I grew up, so let's see my whole history.
So I was raised by my grandparents and my dad
and my grandparents came from a family that always went
to the first Christian church. So when I was born,
I was dedicated to the first Christian church in that

(01:24:18):
little town. And then when we moved from there and
we moved to a different part of Oregon about four
hours away. My grandparents my dad didn't really attend church
the same way that they did when Grandma's mom and
dad were alive, because Grandma Lina was the matriarch of

(01:24:39):
the family and she had, you know, a love for
the church and she dedicated her time, and so everybody
had to go. So when we moved and everything, they
traveled all over. They were giving hearing tests and CPR,
first aid for linemen and everything. They were always on

(01:25:01):
the road. And it wasn't until I was a teen
and they retired from being on the road that we
had a Methodist church in town, and so I went
to the Methodist church with my grandfather. Now I had friends,
though that had different beliefs. I had one really good
friend who her father was the I know, they all

(01:25:24):
have different names. I'm not sure if it's a pastor
preacher of the Mormon church. And then my neighbor who
I was always babysat by was They were all Catholic,
and so I also grew up with a Catholic background
because I kind of lived at my neighbors more than
I lived at my house, and so I always, you know,

(01:25:45):
partook in the services and you know, when the nuns
would come over and everything. I was included in the
talks and everything, and so I was very lucky. I
think that I was very lucky to be able to
grow up in multiple different belief systems and that's where

(01:26:06):
I learned to really ask. Like I remember going to
a Lutheran church and I went I talked to somebody
who was of Jewish faith, and I love asking what
is it about your faith that inspires you, that makes
you want to keep going, that really fills you with

(01:26:28):
that faith. Everybody's answer is different, but that's the whole thing.
When you can sit there and see the light in
somebody's eyes and on their face when they talk about
their faith, you know that that's the right faith for them,
and that is a beautiful thing. And so but I
knew that I still needed to find that for me.

Speaker 3 (01:26:48):
Where is that?

Speaker 4 (01:26:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:26:50):
So as I got older, and I started to go
to a healing group when I was fifteen, So this
is where we would go and we'd talk about all
things esoteric, and you know, we'd do reiki and talk
about different beings from different star systems. And everything. So
from the time I was fifteen until I was in

(01:27:11):
my late twenties, I loved the lessons that I learned
there and hearing about the different spiritual aspects of life,
and and you know, between gosh, it was I mean,
there's Eastern spirituality and the yoga and meditation, and I

(01:27:35):
guess I just kind of became a quilt. And so
there's just a lot of things over the course of
my life, over the course of all the different belief
systems that make sense. I think they're all beautiful in
their own way, from at least the ones that I've so,

(01:27:56):
I mean, and then I got lucky that I have
a dad that believed in the paranormal. I mean, he
had a very religious experience where he was he was
down by the river, and I forget what he was
going through in life. At the time, we were still

(01:28:17):
going to healing group. So he was down by the
river and he was rock counting, because I come from
generations of rock hounders. And he stopped to sit on
a rock and he saw somebody kind of off the
corner of his eye, and he kind of walked down
to the river by my dad, and this guy had

(01:28:40):
long brown hair, and he was kind of wearing you know,
like some just loose almost like yoga clothes kind of
a thing, and some sandals. And my dad was, you know, like, oh, hi,
how's it going, you know, and talked to him about
rock counting and that's what he was there for.

Speaker 3 (01:29:00):
And he.

Speaker 6 (01:29:01):
The guy said, I think my dad asked him, what, like,
what brings you down here or something like that. I
can't remember because I was in high school at the time,
and I remember my dad telling me. And my dad
never cried ever, and he said. The man kind of
looked up at the corner and he said, Oh, I'm

(01:29:22):
just staying with my friend Mary over there. And he
was like, oh, that's cool, you know. And then my
dad had gotten up and he bent over to you know,
something caught his eye in the in the river. He
was going to look to see if it was a naggot.
And he stood up and the guy was gone, and

(01:29:42):
to my father, through tears, he believed that he met Jesus,
you know, and that's his belief, and that was that
was beautiful. And who am I to judge or say otherwise?
Why should anybody judge and say otherwise? You know, Yeah,

(01:30:04):
and it was a transformative moment. So I don't know,
I don't know. That doesn't really answer, that doesn't really
give you a good answer what I believe though, So
I'm all over the place.

Speaker 3 (01:30:20):
Yeah, And and you know, it's it's one of those
I've I've never personally ascribed to the a whole didactic
of heaven and hell.

Speaker 4 (01:30:36):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:30:37):
I fully knew my my Catholic roots. I knew, I knew,
uh the where my Catholicism came from, uh right, and
and it's Judaic root. And I understood that that had
its roots in Zoroastrianism, and that that is where Mono

(01:30:59):
Thee got it got its real kickstart was was that
was Zoroastrianism. And you know that that led me down
all kinds of roads later in life. But I never
ascribed to the hard heaven and Hell, you know, and
I've felt I always prayed extra for the people who

(01:31:21):
had that hard black and white line, because I think
there's a lot more to reality, There's a lot more
to spirituality, And much like a black and white TV,
feel free to feel free to turn that contrast knob
all the way down and pull it off if you
want to see a black and white image, because a

(01:31:42):
black and white image without gray is almost indistinguishable. You
can barely tell what the image actually is without shades
of gray. So that hard black and white and the
fact that they're especially after studying world religion things like that,

(01:32:04):
I came to a much larger spiritual window. But for me,
when it comes to belief in what I believe, I
firmly believe in my God, the Creator, the prime mover
of the universe, and the fact that I take part

(01:32:24):
in that frequency. And I'm much like any bell. My
frequency cannot be unwrung. That energy cannot be made. It
can only transform, it can only change form. It can
only vibrate higher or lower. And it is my decision
as to what frequency I am vibrating on. When I

(01:32:48):
vibrate to the different frequency enough either high or low,
that this coil and physicality is shed, and it's only
pure frequency. And whatever happen happens to that frequency, whether
it's higher low vibration for the rest of eternity is
utterly up to me and where I'm resonating personally. When

(01:33:09):
that ends, right, I mean, that's a fiery damnation. But
I definitely think there's a different part of the spectrum,
no different than infrared. Ultraviolet are two totally different vibrational levels,

(01:33:30):
the opposite ends of the spectrum. So I don't and
I think if you want to call that hell, okay,
because sure, I guess, it's removal from the higher frequency,
no different than hell. By the Christian doctrine, is the
removal of one from God's grace. Where you are now

(01:33:53):
at a point where your sufficient grace is gone. You
have you have sacrificed what would be your sufficient grace,
which is what always gives you right to salvation, right
that that kernel that you can never get rid of.
And and the day that you sacrifice that, then you're

(01:34:14):
in a little piece of trouble because well, yeah, you've
now made it to where you can't save yourself because
that's always you doing that. Yeah, God's but it's you
making that decision to do it.

Speaker 6 (01:34:29):
And that's the hard part is accountability.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
It is it is but even even and to bring
this back, the idea of this is a filter through
which we all see the world. Is this realm of belief,
you know, And when you're approaching an investigation, you have
to you have to be willing to set that belief aside.

(01:34:56):
I believe, and and and that even comes to point
of like over my left shoulder is the right of exorcism, right, right,
And there's a lot that it asks and exorcists to
set aside in their preliminary investigation when it comes to faith,

(01:35:18):
and it's like, let's don't go there, let's don't touch
that yet, Let's go into some physical things. Let's go
into these, because it's like, have you exhausted medical means.

Speaker 6 (01:35:32):
Right, mental health and emination.

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
Things like that. So and once you've hit that wall, now,
you know, do you start getting into things like the
person having knowledge knowledge of things unknown, you know, things
that they couldn't possibly know, that kind of stuff. That's

(01:35:55):
where you start getting into the paranormal at that point.
But and the unseen as once again is prefaced by
the rights of Catholic faith exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:36:10):
Well, and here's the other thing too, regardless of I mean, okay,
take an example. I remember seeing this one time. It
went on an investigation and we all had EMF readers, right,
So we're standing in a circle and we've got that
We've got two yeah, I think two at the time
EMF readers and the question is asked, you know, turn

(01:36:33):
it to red for yes, you know, green, no, whatever
it was, and there was a response. And then the
next question was can you turn both of it? You know,
both of these two? I think it's the red.

Speaker 4 (01:36:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:36:50):
I just le say it gets some messed up, So okay,
so can you turn both of these red? And then
they both turned red? And then it was like, okay,
can you turn the left one right and then the
right one read?

Speaker 1 (01:37:03):
And it did that.

Speaker 6 (01:37:05):
But here's the thing, did it whatever it was, do
it or was it the collective of how much these
people or myself with them wanted that answer, wanted that proof?
So did we do it ourselves somehow manifest it? You

(01:37:27):
know whatever. I'm sure that there's a probably a very
scientific explanation with that in regards to you know, the
frequencies and all that kind of thing that that is.

Speaker 3 (01:37:38):
That is literally what quantum science is all about, and right,
and you know what we bring up regularly at this point,
I'm sure the audience is like in remote viewing, yeah,
you know, because that that's what the the paper written
by how put Off so many years ago, positive was

(01:37:59):
our are scientists affecting their experiment when they go home
and think about it. Oh right, and.

Speaker 6 (01:38:06):
Didn't we bring up there was this one where if
you okay, if you look at it, and this is
like in science, like something about a tube, something about it,
if you look at it, it won't happen. But if
you're not looking at it, then that there's evidence that it.
It's like in a it's like a particle. Have you
heard of that?

Speaker 4 (01:38:26):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:38:27):
Well, well, there's there's the idea that that a particle
has to know it's being observed in order to be observed.
The whole idea of how do you take a picture
of an electron?

Speaker 6 (01:38:44):
Right right?

Speaker 3 (01:38:45):
You know you you have to then predict the orbit
of the electron and have a camera that's technically faster
than the electron. It's good luck with that. So so
there's the whole laundry of does the electron know it's
being observed and slow down to have its picture taken?

(01:39:09):
And it's a valid thought experiment, you know, it's definitely
one of those physics thoughts thought experiments that's out there.
But that's also where a lot of science comes from,
is that wandering yeah things, and that allow that allowment.

(01:39:29):
But but that is the direct opposite and antithesis of belief,
you know. And and I think the belief would really
come more after the gathering of data and things like that.
In science, it would be the hypothesis would be the

(01:39:49):
closest to belief, like I believe this is the case,
and from there you experiment and you find out more
things like that. So that would that would be the
closest in investigation, would be that moment of hypothesis where
it's like, I've gathered enough data that I think this
may be what we're looking at. And and even that though,

(01:40:15):
comes down to the point of what are what are
you willing to put on the table? You know, there's
a We've been having a lot of conversation not just
online but on the show about three I Atlas and
and the the rampant belief that it's it's an alien

(01:40:36):
mothership or an alien ship or something like that. And
this is a hard belief from a lot of people.
And they say, like abvi Low believes this avvy Low
hypothesized hyperbolically the way science is supposed to. He's like,

(01:40:56):
with its origin coming from the same area generally generally
as the Wow signal in seven, what was that seventy
two or seventy seven? But of the famous Wow signal,
maybe like maybe there's a small percent of a channel,
like a two to three percent chance that maybe is

(01:41:17):
alien technology. Well he said that about a muamua, the
first interstellar object one I Atlas and no signal, no,
no technology, you know, so one hundred percent miss on that.
He said, possible eady alien technology. Once again with the

(01:41:42):
with the sphracles that were recovered from the ocean floor.
Jury's still out on that. So I'll give him fifty percent.
So he's shooting a fifty percent right now, and at
a at a fifty percent, I don't think it's a
I don't it's a comment, right, Is there a two

(01:42:04):
to three chance? Sure? Maybe, But that's exactly what he said.
And with belief and faith in aliens and hope, things
have been turned into something else. And it's it's fascinating
to see how quickly and rampantly it takes over. It's

(01:42:26):
fascinating to see that and even even I think very
litmus testing to allow it to continue, you know, go ahead.

Speaker 6 (01:42:40):
My question is my question is what what would you
say is the how do I want to phrase it?
The Okay, so we have this need, we're showing this
need for alien life form to find some thing to
find answers to have. So what purpose does that need fill?

(01:43:07):
If aliens were to be found to be completely real
and now they're a part of our reality, what need
does that fill?

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
I think that I think the need that that fills
is right at the same need that that religion fills
for so many, which is that connection to something greater
than yourself, that that pure involvement with something greater than yourself, right,

(01:43:46):
you know, in that in that kind of way, I
think that's a very human want. Yeah, there's I mean,
since it's since the time of Moon Dancer the eighth
from two thousand and one, man has looked at the sky,

(01:44:07):
We've looked at the great beyond, We've wandered. That's what
That's what separates us from other animals things like that
is is that a the sense of wonder and awe
but b which which is one of the gifts of
the spirit biblically oddly enough, but the idea that we

(01:44:33):
want to believe in something else, And yeah, you have
to you have to wonder where that want comes from right,
and and what the source of that is, and when
that want of belonging becomes so great, so great. In
my lifetime, I remember a couple instances. I mean, number one, Waco,

(01:45:00):
I'll never forget that that happened just before I entered
the seminary, The incident of Mount Carmel happened, Ruby Ridge.
And on the heels of all that, within a couple
few years was hail Bop in Heaven's Gate.

Speaker 4 (01:45:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
And it's something that I tell my wife all the time.
I love this world, I love her, I love my son,
I love all kinds of things. But I fully understand
the heart of the true believer in that kind of
way where when you are so convicted to a belief

(01:45:51):
that that step that somebody else would go, WHOA wait
a minute, that's way too far is is just the
logical next step. And I say that because because yes,
I was willing to wear a collar for the rest
of my life. Man, I'm now married, I have a kid,

(01:46:12):
things like that. But there was a point in my
life at the age of seventeen, where I made a
commitment and a decision that I was ready to say
whatever you want, folks, drink the kool aid, what have you.
But I was ready to commit my life to my

(01:46:36):
God and my belief right at seventeen.

Speaker 6 (01:46:43):
Yeah, I'm always call it crazy if you want.

Speaker 3 (01:46:47):
I've counseled numerous other people that now wear the collar, right.
One of them works in vocations and things like that
and brings brings other kids that are questioning into the
world of finding out if they want to follow that
spiritual path. And it's great. But that's a different realm

(01:47:09):
of belief, you know. That's that's believing things on a
different scale, right, So I understand when people believe things
so hard that they are willing to let logic go
by the wayside.

Speaker 6 (01:47:26):
See, it's so sad because we actually son Ken ends
up watching things on the anniversary of so like we've
watched the movies about Titanic and April I think it
was when it is and this month synchronistically enough, it's odd.

(01:47:47):
And just yesterday we found a brand new documentary on
the jonestown. Yeah, so I think it was done by
the National Geographic It's on Hulu, and the belief there
and the testimonies from those people. It's that It's interesting
because you mentioned drink koulid. Yeah, I was actually going

(01:48:09):
to bring it up before you said that, and so,
but to see these people and the need and then
when things started and everything and just how it got
as far as it did. I mean, belief is the
most powerful.

Speaker 4 (01:48:31):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:48:32):
It's the most powerful motivator in the world, quite literally,
and then it leads to horrible, horrifying tragedy, yeah, as
well as great conquering and beautiful things. And once again,
this is no an admiration toward anybody of belief, toward
anybody of faith. Please go every Wednesday, Go every Thursday, going, yes, Sundays,

(01:48:54):
that is what you are called to do. Folks. However,
we have to underst stand that these beliefs, these things
that we hold near and dear and sacred to us,
may also come into conflict with what we are investigating.
It may keep us from looking at data in the

(01:49:15):
right kind of way, and it may also send us
down a road of investigation that doesn't need to be done.

Speaker 6 (01:49:26):
Right right, No, that's true, And I mean, like you said,
there's so many beautiful beliefs out there, and if it
raises your spirit and it makes you feel peace, then
you know by all means, but you know, to know
and to accept that belief has two sides to it,

(01:49:47):
you know, two sides the sword, and to have the
discipline to be able to know when to not allow
it to completely blindfold you. Yeah, you know, and to
know when to leave it at the door, so to speak.

Speaker 3 (01:50:07):
You know, well, and and you know it's it's interesting
because all of two weeks ago, you get the invites
for the show. I know, because your name's within a
certain range of the alphabet. Whenever I whenever I hit
the invite on my on my events on Facebook, it
hits five hundred people out of my friends list, all right.

(01:50:31):
And one of those friends contacted me about a week
or so ago. It was like, what's this about? And
I'm like, well, you know, and it was, uh, I
guess animal spirits or something like that was the topic
that and then it was Chester Moore and the Lost
Lost Tribes. Very full. Yeah, so I mentioned those topics

(01:50:54):
and very very right Christian Catholic lady, and and she's like, well,
you know, all I need is the Holy Spirit. It's like, okay,
I guess, never mind the unseen, let's creating it once again.

(01:51:18):
But okay, right, because once again it's it's one.

Speaker 4 (01:51:24):
Of those.

Speaker 3 (01:51:26):
Right there in the belief in the In the Article
of Faith it says things seen and unseen the Holy
Spirit later most definitely, But but it's it's that belief
in the scene and unseen to begin with. So the

(01:51:49):
idea that you aren't even open minded to the conversation, Uh, well,
go ahead.

Speaker 6 (01:51:58):
The hard part is here too. It's started to jump in.
But like when you say the unseen, well, I think
that some people could ascribe it to well, of course
the unseen. You can't see the Holy Spirit. You can't
see God's love. There are examples of it, sure, those

(01:52:18):
are examples. That's not the actual. So then it's it's
taking and ascribing, you know, putting a belief within a
belief and making I mean, this is why you can
go and have the same book. Right, You've got your Bible,
but go to ten different churches and have ten different

(01:52:42):
pastors read the exact same passage. Every one of them
is going to say it different.

Speaker 4 (01:52:48):
Yeah, I saw that happen, you know, So.

Speaker 6 (01:52:54):
It's hard. So the unseen, if you have a certain
belief there, it's they're not gonna be able to necessarily
compute that the unseen could mean the stuff from our
world they're going to ascribe it to. You know, you
can't see God, you can't see Jesus, you can't see

(01:53:14):
their love, you can't see the Holy Trinity, you can't
see angels necessarily in their world.

Speaker 4 (01:53:21):
Yep. You know.

Speaker 3 (01:53:22):
So yeah, hard, yeah, yeah. And it's just funny to
me though, to draw a line when it comes to unseen.

Speaker 4 (01:53:34):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (01:53:36):
To have such a hard, divisive line, John, It's like, yeah, no, no, no,
not that unseen, that's not there, what is right?

Speaker 1 (01:53:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:53:54):
Okay, Yeah. That was something that I brought up to
a spiritual director many years ago which was a big
point of departure for me, which was and I've shared
it with you on the show before, my shadow person experience,
which I firmly believe was basically a primordial me wanting

(01:54:16):
wanting me to continue down the road of horrible activity
in my life that I was doing to myself, not
wanting to meet me to leave and be free of
those self imposed tortures. But when I mentioned that to
my spiritual director at the time, a priest, he was like, well,

(01:54:39):
you know, Chris, we don't really have a teaching on that,
and I'm like, well, wait a minute, because you know,
of course, the church doesn't have opinions. It doesn't think things.
It teaches. That's what the catechism is, is the teachings
of the Church. And I'm like, wait a minute. You
teach me that you know there are dark things stalking

(01:55:00):
around each corner waiting for my soul. But when I
tell you some dark thing reached out and grabbed me,
You're like, hey, man, I'm at a loss. I don't
know what to tell you. Yeah, and that's a that's
a shark. I don't know if I can jump. Yeah,
you know, like I don't know if I could jump that,

(01:55:21):
because that like you asked me to have faith and
belief in the scene, but when given evidence of something unseen,
you have no faith. So that's tough.

Speaker 6 (01:55:40):
It is because I remember growing up and when I
first started, So when I first started in the field,
this is before twenty fifteen, so I was in healing
group and everything, and I actually went to do house cleansings.
I don't ever really talk about it, but I would
help with clearing houses properties as well as we had

(01:56:07):
people come who said that they had attachments or it's
not like that traditional exorcism type stuff, but you could,
like sometimes they used the word in regards to that
and so and so that's where I got my start.
And I remember hearing other people talking and everything, and
I remember they would say that, oh, well, we don't

(01:56:31):
believe in ghosts here, or we don't you know, x
y Z. And they're telling their children, you know, these
things don't exist. But yet they believed in in Jesus
and angels and all these other things. And then sometimes,
you know, I saw that a child might have had

(01:56:51):
a you know, an encounter, and they're extra scared now
because their entire belief system. Oh this doesn't exist, this
doesn't exist, and then all of a sudden they have
an experience. Now it's more traumatic and it's more compacted
because of the beliefs and everything. And it doesn't make

(01:57:12):
sense to me how you can say, we believe in
all of this, but all of this if we were
to believe in this, and then we don't have faith,
but it goes together, you.

Speaker 3 (01:57:23):
Know, so yeah to me, to me, they are inseparably congruent. Yeah,
that's that's just how I see it. And I will
sit and debate any show or any host about that fact, gladly, gladly.

(01:57:44):
But to me, the paranormal and the Bible things like
that are absolutely congruent with each other. And once again,
that idea of belief and faith, then what how how
does that a inform our investigations but but b affect

(01:58:08):
them as well? And are we able to put belief
in faith aside right in in that kind of way
when looking at and examining information and data, because we've
we've got to be willing to and we've got to
be able to, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:58:27):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:58:28):
And and there are there are a few topics that
spring to mind the whole and and don't get me wrong,
not saying ain't a thing definitely spoken of and in
the Big Book all kinds of things. However, the concept
of disembodied demonic nephyline. Sure, I'll talk about it, uh,

(01:58:55):
but but I don't know that everything is that, you know,
And it's kind of like saying that every light you
can't explain in the sky is a UFO. And it
really comes down to the point of wait a minute.
If you're posting twenty videos a week on social media

(01:59:16):
that you recorded in your backyard, well, odds on favorite
period now as none of them are UFOs. Yeah, yeah,
because it's no longer a phenomena now right, it's a
regular occurrence, right, and that.

Speaker 6 (01:59:34):
Wishes it over into a totally different category. One thing
that I think would help, when we're talking about putting
belief aside to be able to look at things more objectively,
it's curiosity.

Speaker 5 (01:59:51):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:59:51):
So if we can sit there and go, if I
was able to take my belief out of this, I'm
curious what what I look through it? Now? What could
I see with new eyes? And so instead of because
I think the big thing here is that when people
take their belief or they think about taking their belief

(02:00:12):
out of something, fear is what takes place, and it's
it's very unknown, it's it's it's scary. So instead of
going to fear, if we can then go to curiosity,
I think that that could really help.

Speaker 3 (02:00:29):
I think you're absolutely right there, because that is I mean,
that's that's where science goes, that's where that's I mean,
we say it all the time on the show. We
need more Magellan's. Yeah, there was a guy who was like,
give me a ship, give me a fleet of ships,
and some guys and We're going to sail to that
tiny thin line, and I'll tell you whether or not

(02:00:49):
the world is round, yeah, because if it is, I'll
come back right and come from the other direction, yeah,
not not not return the same way I came.

Speaker 4 (02:01:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:01:05):
But but we've got to be willing to do that.
And and we've got to be willing to but fearlessly
cast aside what what we know and hold to be
true when we are investigating these things, because otherwise, on
on either side, you become unyieldable. And it's either it's

(02:01:27):
either the side of I will I will believe in
nothing and nothing is real and nothing is like everything
about all these things is fake and false and falsified,
which I follow more than one person in those camps
on more than one community, a couple of them right

(02:01:49):
down the road for me in San Antonio. And and
at the same right, you'll if you take it the
opposite direction, and you will be sucked down the rabbit
hole of any topic to the extreme. And then that's
where you start coming into things like three I Atlas

(02:02:12):
and stuff like that. And and I saw I saw
today somebody post about a famous channeler who was like,
you know, oh, it's it's an actual comment with alien
technology embedded in it. Okay, I like the way you're

(02:02:36):
exactly of the same frequency that was not for hers.
But literally I'm like, okay, way to way to make
a statement that is in no way, shape or form
testable or provable by any means. Right, So you're not
wrong as the challenge as the channeler, Yeah at all.

Speaker 6 (02:03:01):
Exactly. Well, And that's the hard thing is that here again,
belief isn't just about religion or you know whatever. We
can have these personal beliefs that if we're wrong about something,
then all of a sudden, we are you know X,

(02:03:22):
and then there's this domino effect.

Speaker 3 (02:03:24):
I'd rather be wrong. I'd rather be wrong. Yeah that's
just me.

Speaker 6 (02:03:31):
Well, no, exactly me too. Like I'll come like I
can come on the podcast and I can say, well,
I don't know or I've been corrected before, and that's
totally fine because I and I and I welcome that
because I want to grow and I want to understand
other people's points of view. And I also have a

(02:03:52):
bad habit of jumping over things or talking too fast
and forgetting stuff. And I feel so lucky to know
people that will say they'll kind of back up and
be like, you know, to clarify and different stuff like that.
And being able to have that kind of growth and
humility and curiosity though, and being willing to have that

(02:04:15):
is so freeing. But you have to let go of
the fear to be able to get to that point.

Speaker 3 (02:04:21):
Yeah, and some people.

Speaker 6 (02:04:24):
Never will unfortunately, but we all have the ability to
do it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:32):
Yeah. Yeah, and you know it does take that openness. Yeah,
I'm not going to blow it because I've got the
closing of the show coming up here in just a
couple of minutes. We're all safe anyway. But yeah, it
is that idea of being willing to step outside of

(02:04:52):
your box, being willing to step outside of your comfort zone,
being willing to step outside of what you may feel
you are expert in and let new data and new
information come in, because without that we can get lost,
we can get mired down and become so myopics so fast.

Speaker 4 (02:05:15):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:05:16):
One of the one of the favorite things that I
will say that I heard and say what you want
folks about the hearings that are going on in Congress
about UFO u AP disclosure, what have you transparency actually
not disclosure but George Knapp was like, I'm sure by now,

(02:05:37):
He's like, all these all these contractors are just doing
the job that they are paid to do. Their job
as a contractor is to work on things, reverse engineer things. Hey,
here's a here's a down to Russian jet. What technology
can we back engineer and use it our jets?

Speaker 4 (02:05:59):
You know?

Speaker 3 (02:06:01):
Now, shut up about it. He's like, that's their job.
So they're doing their job, and they're doing it amazingly. Well, however,
I'm sure at this point, and this is where you
have to get with religion and belief and everything else,
everybody is I'm sure at this point they are looking

(02:06:22):
for an off ramp. I'm sure at this point they
are looking for an off ramp with which they can
meet other people and collaborate. Because when you've got it
doesn't matter the amazing technology, when it is locked inside
of a vacuum, right for so long, yeah, you can't

(02:06:44):
go anywhere with it. You need competition, You need healthy
competition to make things grow fast. That's how we got
rovers on the moon within a decade. That's like, competition
is how we do that, not locked away secrets.

Speaker 6 (02:07:00):
Right, you know, come in and everybody bring your knowledge.

Speaker 3 (02:07:04):
Yeah yeah, So if you are so encamped behind your
wall of belief and faith that you cannot step out
into a broader light, into a broader spectrum of light,
if you cannot share that data in a way that
can cooperatively be looked at and researched, then we're hindering things.

(02:07:30):
We aren't helping them. We aren't helping them with our closed,
closed mindset of belief at that point, you know, and
we're all supposed to be here as researchers to help
these communities, not hinder them. So have your personal beliefs,
hold them, hold them strong, but do not let them.

Speaker 4 (02:07:55):
Work.

Speaker 3 (02:07:56):
Yeah yeah, yeah, And I think that's the caveat to
go out on you, is that that idea of once again,
hold what you believe dear to you, but don't let
it cloud your judgment when it comes to research.

Speaker 6 (02:08:14):
So and definitely don't weaponize it.

Speaker 3 (02:08:16):
Yes, yes, that as well, And thank you so much
for your time. It's always great breaking topics like this
down with you. Before we let you go, Let everybody
know where they can go to find your medium, where
they can go to find your website, where they can
go to find all things and Selene. I know you
have new works coming out.

Speaker 6 (02:08:37):
I do.

Speaker 3 (02:08:37):
Those are things, so let everybody know.

Speaker 6 (02:08:40):
Yes, so I'm republishing my first book and that I
will announce about on my Facebook page, which you can
find me under just an Selene. And then also my
website is anslene dot com and that right from there
is where you can find my Medium because it's I
think on the very front page that there's it uploads

(02:09:02):
my different blogs that I that I write. So and
again you know medium dot com, forward slash at entomology
and yeah, I mean I'm most active on Facebook, So
find me there, send me a message, and yeah, I
hope to connect. This has been absolutely incredible.

Speaker 3 (02:09:24):
Absolutely it's always great having you on and I always
love our conversations. Once again, we really do go places
with it. Hold the line, real click while we close
things out with the audience. Well, you are online checking
out everything from an Selene, everybody, make sure to stop
on by Curious Realm. Curious Realm dot com is where

(02:09:46):
you can like, follow, subscribe. That is where you can
find the videos channel, which has all of the embedded
channels of our guests and friends, people like King Gerhard,
all kinds of fun folks. That is also where you
can find your link to Curious Research. Curiousresearch dot Org
is our endeavor to bring the worlds of science and

(02:10:11):
paranormal research together, and in that spirit, we have an
amazing free tools section Curious research dot Org Forward slash
Tools all kinds of great free online tools that you
can use for you know, photography analysis, video analysis, all
kinds of things, So stop on by check that out.

(02:10:33):
Thank you so much for your open hearts, your open
minds tonight everybody. That is what makes the conversation. And
without the conversation, humanity does not march forward. So remember,
take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and
stay curious. We'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (02:10:50):
B Thank you for tuning into this episode of the
Curious Realm. Stay tuned for more guests forbidden Topics and
Hidden truth. Follow us on social media by searching Curious Realm.
To download the official Curious Realm app and view the
Knowledge Vault, or become a sponsor of Curious Realm. Visit

(02:11:14):
our website at curious realm dot com. Curious Realm is
available on your favorite podcast and video services Curious realm
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and the official Curious Realm app for Roku devices. Curious

(02:11:34):
Realm is a proud member of the ground zero Media
family of podcasts. For more shows and members only content,
visit ground zero plus dot com today. Thanks for listening,
stay curious, and remember the other side is always watching

(02:11:56):
the

Speaker 1 (02:12:02):
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