Primal Dating: The Modern Answer to Dating (Based on Evolutionary Psychology)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
We're all a little depraved and debaucherous. Here is the
King of podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
My next guest in the program is an acknowledged authority
on evolutionary psychology, persuasion, and he best selling author of
four books including Unleash Your Primal Brain, Give Mystifying How
we Think and Why We Act. My guess also holds
dual degrees in cognitive science and commuter engineering. And there's
much more to his background, given the fact that I
have gotten the chance to produce podcasting for him, and

(00:33):
I've known him my guests for roughly twenty years now
of in the space of podcasting in general. So he's
here join me about his latest book here on our program,
called Primal Dating, The Unflinching Evolutionary Psychology Guide to Modern Relationships.
He's ripping the band aid off the modern dating world,
providing an unflinching guide for men based on evolutionary psychology

(00:57):
modern dating narratives, encouraging men to focus on solf and
become proven winners in the dating market. Listen, I've read
at least two hundred books in my lifetime. In my
audible eye, right, I just look to have twenty three
books on dating psychology, and so many other areas. That's
not counting other areas that are related to it. This
by far might be the arguably the most influential book

(01:19):
on dating I have read to date. So I'm here
with Tim Ash author proanel Dating. Tim, thanks for being.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
On absolutely my friend. Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Those are very kind words, especially as I know you're
of all of this and I have devoted a lot
of time to it. So thank you for your words
about primal dating.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
So I've gotten through almost all the book, but from
what I've gotten so far, I got up to the
typish for men. So the area is about what mean
should be doing to apply what the book talks about.
That's where I've gotten to that point. But the thing is,
it's such a raw truth that's said there. And the
thing is it's not happy talk. You are not going

(01:58):
to feel like, wow, I've been doing so like you
might realize there are certain things you have progressed along
in your dating journey. If you're like me, who has
been a chronic dater all my life, I have not
a serious relationship. For those who listened to the praise
and the rogers for all these years, you know a
lot of my story because I have shared it. But
the thing is, if I had this book years ago,

(02:21):
maybe it could be a game changer. Honestly it is,
and for the audience I have right now, a younger audience,
you need to go pick up this book. It's not
even it should be required reading, per requisite before you
get to the dating world. You should find this book now,
Tim The book emphasizes the importance of it understanding the
fundamental biological differences between men and women, the psychology that

(02:43):
men a lot of times don't really understand. And there
were certain books in the psychology I've read that I've
been able to try to incorporate on how you're supposed
to communicate with women and the sut of communication that
women might give to a man that we might not
understand right away because we're based on logic. Women might
be more based on passion through their heart. But you argue,
the inherent behaviors that men and women have are superseding,

(03:06):
superseded modern cultural narratives, that our biology still at the
end of the day identifies who we are and we're
still going to respond to that. So elaborate for me
on how a man's pursuit of a woman and a
woman's selective nature are deeply rooted in our evolutary past,
and all the cultural stuff that comes in doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, well, let's think about it this way. We have
a certain wiring as an animal, as an animal species,
you know, And to say that men and women are different,
I mean, that's about as obvious as gravity. But I
mean there are other species where the males and females
are basically the same. They're the same size, they act
the same. We're not one of those. For example, men
are twenty five percent larger than women on average. We

(03:48):
have fifteen to twenty times the testosterone, which leads to
aggression and taking a pretty active part in the world.
So obviously we're there for different functional purposes. Now, this
isn't about which is better thing, because we evolve for
complementary needs. But the main point that my Cope by
brilliant call author the more Godly b and I wanted

(04:08):
to make in the book is that you can't just
take your cultural crap and put it on top of
two three hundred thousand years of human evolution.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
You have to look at what we evolve for.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
And now will give you some real strong clues on
why we behave the way we do and why there
are these massive asymmetries. So to kind of give you
the cartoon version, which we're all familiar with, we're on
the planes of East Africa and there's we're in a
tribe of a few dozen people, and who are you
going to send hunting? Well, is it going to be
the twenty five percent smaller women that have less aggression. No,

(04:40):
if you want to survive, you send the men off
the hunt, and the women are taking care of big headed,
useless babies. We are the most helpless species on the
planet when we're born, and our big evolutionary advantage is
being able to learn the cultural package of the tribe
around us, and that's kind of a life hack that
helped us evolve as a species. So babies take a

(05:00):
long time to develop. Adult brains aren't even matured till
the age of twenty five fully. So women had to
take care of those helpless blobs and turn them into
actual human beings. So men and women have very very
different roles, and so women basically their approach is to
find their one best choice, the one guy that can
show up every day and continue to provision and provide

(05:23):
and support, and men were bred to compete for that,
in other words, to be the best option, to be
the best risk taker, the best provider, and so on. Again,
that's a cartoonish version, but that's essentially what made us
the way we are, and that has a lot of
implications which I'm happy to go into.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
The bottom line is that the book is telling you
to strip away all this gobbledegook, all this preconceived notions
and narrative that we have. We see on social media
that we've been hearing of delusional, whether it's on the
men or women's side of what men or women are
supposed to be, whether places are in dating, two relationships,
to marriage, and so on exactly.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
So let me give you some examples, if I may, so.
All of the following things are cultural concepts. Men are
all rapers, women are less logical than men. Marriage is
the what God intended for us, the structure of how
to be in relationships. So you know, I have a

(06:26):
soulmate out there who's just waiting to find Okay, all
of those are cultural concepts. So if you want to
really strip it down to our evolutionary psychology and biology,
you have to look at is this thing around across
all human societies, across all time. That's the kind of
foundational stuff we're talking about. And you got to kick
off all of this modern bullshit, whether it's feminism or

(06:47):
red pill crap or pick up artists techniques or you know,
all that stuff is learn culture. Some of it's rooted
in a warped way and evolutionary psychology. But you really
have to dump all of your preconceptions if you're gonna
get clear and do things reality based.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Now, one of the things is very clear is that
in the book you state that women want proven winners,
not projects. Now, I gotta make this point across clerk too.
So and the delusional messaging we hear, oh, we a
lot of women want that point one percent of men
that are out there that are available, they are you know,
six foot tall, six figure income or more, and you know,

(07:26):
well endows six inches or more whatever that the whole
thing is, and.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
A six pack, the four to six and.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
So the thing is it comes down to the fact that, okay,
you can say all that, but there's still some truth
to the messaging of the fact that a woman wants
someone that they can feel secure and safe that's gonna
be They're gonna be provided for, and they're gonna be
able to have kids with, and they're gonna be able
to have a life with and they're never gonna lose
that person. They're gonna be able to rely on that
person and stay true to that person. That's what it

(07:53):
comes down to. And for men, they want someone that is,
you know, the end of They wouldn't want someone that
has not been and overly promiscuous, you know, possibly a
virgin and some of the traditional traits we see out
there would still be good today. But one of the
things that is a problem that we do need to
address is that what kind of emotional baggage does some

(08:14):
of these people come from on both sides. Where if
people are you know, mentally stable and are you know,
they've been able to go through a proper background, you know,
mother and father, they've seen the role model of what
a good marriage or relationship or what you know, just
what men and women are supposed to be and how
they're supposed to act, what masscin and feminine means. But

(08:36):
what about if you think you're trying to get yourself
in with somebody but you don't know what kind of
background they come from, what kind of trauma they might
have suffered, if they came from a single family home, dysfunctional,
or came through some various psychological or sexual trauma. What
do you say about those people entering into the space
and trying to filter out to make sure that you know,

(08:57):
you're not falling into a project of the woman being
a project or you being a project.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, well, you know, you mentioned something very important that
a lot of people are traumatized at various degrees of
trauma out there. I mean, that's basically being human. Nobody's
got some perfect upbringing. But I want to focus more
on tendencies because the individual stuff. I can give you
some tactics later, but I want to talk about kind
of those asymmetries. So here's a couple of asymmetries. Men

(09:23):
and women select and attract differently. Okay, that's absolutely true,
and then each men and women also have different short
and long term mating strategies. You mentioned like you don't
want the woman to have a high body count, so
we have like, as men, this what we call it
Madonna horror complex, Right, we want that nasty woman in bed,
but then she's the perfect mother and you know she's

(09:45):
just walks on water and we worship her. Well, that
has evolutionary roots. So I want to talk about like
why that's the case. Because in the short term, we
want to take advantage of sexual opportunity. So we want
the quote unquote you know, loose women right in the
long term, and we want somebody who is we're going
to invest in, and who's going to be faithful to
us and invest in our children and be a good mother.

(10:07):
You can't just like spread your seed everywhere and run away.
Those babies aren't going to survive because they don't have
the support of the fathers. I mean, some people take
that strategy and try to plan as much seed as
they can. But the point is that men and women
do things for different reasons, and short term and long
term strategies are very different. So for women, it's the
same around ovulation. They want those square jawed, genetically superior guys, right,

(10:31):
but then they go and snuggle up to the guy
who's going to be a good provider and take care
of their kids. So it's kind of like this portfolio
diversification for women. So we have these tensions not just
as men and women, but also in short term and
long term strategies for how we select and provide and
women select men are simple. We basically like, it is

(10:52):
she hot, we can tell that by visual inspection, wasteed
hip ratio, that's basically fertility cues, and will she produce
healthy babies?

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Right? And isitia pain in the ass?

Speaker 3 (11:02):
And that comes in very different flavors, but it's basically
a tugo war between those two things. Whereas women, they
actually select on two completely separate axes. One is the
good genes and the other is provisioning, the ability for
you to continually provision, whether that's emotional support, financial support,
showing up, helping, whatever that looks like. And so you know,

(11:24):
we call it the diamond of women's selections. So at
the bottom you have like low provisioning and low attractiveness.
Basically you're invisible to women. If you go over to
high attractiveness side, you're the bad boy. So like we
hope you'll graduate into a useful real man. But you
have good genes and you have confidence and swagger, and
that's where all the pickup artists and red pill guys focus,

(11:46):
Like how do I bang as many women as I
can by being quote unquote attractive, right, But if that
doesn't materialize into long term relationships, then those bad boys
are usually cut loose. Usually women experiment with them earlier
in life. On the other side, you have the friend zone,
which is like I can provision you and I'll do

(12:07):
everything for you, but you don't find me attractive. And
once a man gets into the friend zone, there's no
getting out. So one of the things we suggest, by
the way in the book for men is stay away
from the friend zone. Every interaction you have as soon
as you end up there, it's like a Jenga tower.
Once it collapses, you're in there forever.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
And then I would put it you into that other
aspect is effected that if you have those friend zones,
and I know that's real experience that if you have
someone from the friend zone that tries to come back
and reapproach you, oh after they've had children or after
a couple of years and they've gotten older, then you know,
the thing is if you're not gonna be able to
go and be able to attract and be able to
go ahead and secure a relationship with that person that
you're interested in that puts in the friend zone, get out.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah, yeah, yah know, it's what I was saying.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
So yeah, So a real quick obvious advice is, if
you're ever friend zoned, you're done. You will never be
a sexual option for that woman. So if you didn't
make your attracting this clear and your desire worry an
intimate relationship clear as part of the of the entry point,
it's never going to flip.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
That's only in movies that that happens.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
And then again, at the top of women's selection, diamond
is high attractive, as high provisioning. Those are the alphas
or other the prince charmings, the husband material. But every
woman is chasing those guys, so they have a lot
of optionality. So basically, if I kind of some up
modern dating, what you have right now is most men
are invisible to women for a variety of reasons, happy

(13:28):
to talk about them, highly educated women are really frustrated,
and the chads are going to town.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, now let's go talk about the part of a
clear distinction to promul dating. The book talked about when
it comes to short term sexual pursuits and long term
partners for marriage and family. I know the normal sense
would be okay, I remember thinking about the fact of
a marriage of family would be something twenties and u thirties.
That's like the first attempt, you want to find something
that you want to be in a commitment, in a

(13:55):
relationship with, but then things change you realize, well, if
that's not going to be the case. You know the
guys you know it's not. That's the other part of
the understanding is that you know the biological differences. You know,
guys can go ahead and you know, spread their seat
along and it's like it doesn't make a difference. They're
kind of built for the fact that they can good
have sexual conquests whatever women they want. For women, there's

(14:16):
consequences to it for whoever they sleep with because of
being pregnant.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
And yes, that's a massive risk.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
So basically women are risk averse if you look at it,
just about every psychological dimension, men and women quote unquote
are the same on average, But if you look at
the spread of that the bell curve, women tend to
tightly cluster, whereas men have these really flat, wide bell curves.
In other words, there are more risk takers and cowards
among men. There are more geniuses and freaking idiots among men.

(14:42):
Every dimension, Remember, women bred us to be more risk taking,
and they are looking for safety and their best bet.
That's basically the asymmetry you're talking about, because if you
have a baby with the wrong guy, or if he
runs off and doesn't help support you biologically, evolutionarily speaking,
that was death to you and your child.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
But there's now have been a lot of societal factors
that have also come into play that have made the
dating aspect to relationships very difficult for guys. Then there's
the risk averse. If you decide to get into a
relationship and you have children with a woman and divorce
comes into play. You know, the way that the estate
is set now is fifty percent goes to the woman

(15:23):
and who knows what kind of child support or any
kind of other you know, payments you're gonna have to
go pay back. I mean, I just read about what
the basketball player Anthony Edwards. What are the five hundred
dollars dollars child support and some of the things for
the father, for the mother of his child, and like
the kind of and of course, because these million dollars,
you know, multimillion dollar athlete, the guy is now screwed

(15:45):
for life because he asked for child support, she asked
for child support for or actually was all the money
for life.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
So he's done.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
It's like there's another risk on that side. But there's
the part where you know it makes everything impossible to
create marriage and then for well.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
You're absolutely right that marriage formation is down, divorce is up,
relationships are down, and even sex is down. Here's a
shocking stat. Ten years ago, ten percent of men under
thirty had had sex in a year. So ten percent
we're not having any sex in the pasture. In this
past decade, it is now climbed to thirty percent. It's

(16:24):
tripled in a decade. Something is really, pardon me, fucked
if people aren't even fucking right, right, I mean, so,
there's a massive breakdown in relationship formation, and there are
several reasons for that. If you want to get into it,
I'll be happy to list them off. So the first
is that first all most stuff is happening through online dating.

(16:44):
That's where more than half our relationships now start. So
that's where you're playing in that online dating. You have
twice as many men and women on dating sites. That's
such a massive numbers and balance, right, And then here's
a couple of compounds things Men always make the approach.
There's really three decisions in any relate, long term relationship.

(17:06):
Men have to approach the woman, the woman has to
decide to have sex with them, and the man has
to decide whether to provision or continue to invest resources, time, money,
and attention into that relationship.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
So three choices.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well, so men are always going to make the approach
that's almost universal. And so what happens when the approach
is really easy, when you have thousands of women, you
can swipe right on right where there's no rejection, where
you think you're choosing him in a vacuum, and you
have a shot with them. Well, basically men's approach goes
to eleven or actually one hundred and eleven on a
scale of one to ten. And as a result, women

(17:39):
have these full inboxes and every unattractive, undesirable woman still
has hundreds of people in her inbox, so she thinks
she's all that and a bag of chips when it's
not really true. And then to make things even worse,
women's one of their most fundamental things that we talked about,
One of their fundamental needs is a safety, safety, feeling

(18:00):
of safety, and so they naturally have stranger danger. Any
man who's not familiar to them is going to get downgraded. Well,
guess what, when you approach women online, you're automatically a stranger.
So women are rating you on a ten point scale
a couple points lower just because they don't know you.
And then you add to that the fact that women
are doing great financially. Sixty percent of Bacher's degrees are women.

(18:25):
Women are out earning men in large metro areas until
they decide to step off the rat race and have
some kids. Right, So that's great for women, But the
problem is that again, women are choosing men that are
going to upgrade their life. They're looking for men that
are doing even better, and that's becoming very, very difficult
for men to compete with. Just in a couple of generations,

(18:46):
women are doing so much better that effectively men for
all of these reasons, have now become invisible societal norms.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
And you brought up first of all, to dating apps,
and I'll tell you this is the antithesis of what
this program is all about. So women that find themselves
in toxic relationships where you know, if they're in a
broken relationship or they're in a broken family or other
trauma that came into their lives and they find someone else,
a man who has has his own trauma that's able
to go in and be an artisistic, controlling, manipulative and

(19:15):
toxic relationships really put somebody through a lot of damage.
Professional women that feel like, well, you know, they want
to go and just abandon then the whole idea of
dating relationships in general and just find their career when
it'll be too late if they want to go and
think about kids relationship. Then there's also the areas about
the visual aspect. I look at tim where okay, tattoos

(19:36):
are such a such a normal cultural norm now in
the last twenty years, more than ever, and for me,
I'm just not into it. It's just not I mean,
especially if it's just so like if you get sleeves
across the board, I think it's you know, it's a
big change and it's a lot to go and adapt
to when you're getting older. Then there's all the technology
when I think about right now, Okay, dating apps, if
you know, and you put a lot of work the

(19:57):
talking about well to do on communicating in dating apps
and trying to go and create you know, a connection
which I don't believe dating apps could do anymore. So
I would want to know about how much to try
to rely on dating apps versus the real life, because
in real life, you'll be their phones regularly, so they're
not gonna get you're not gonna get their attention really quickly.
And if they're wearing air pods, okay, if you.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
Will, Yeah, yeah, they're they're tuned out. It's that this
is the zombie apocalypse. Everybody is just a zombie at
this point. Yeah, so all right, let me let me,
let me attack some of the stuff that you just
talked about. So, first of all, you're right, there are
some damaged people out there. And the one thing that
people aren't telling you about dating apps is healthy people
with secure attachment styles and resources and having done some personal.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Development work aren't on them.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
And the best people aren't on them because the guys
are having the best guys are having women throw themselves
at them. They don't need anymore, and the best women, well,
here's your choice. Someone's offering to fly you to Dubai
for the weekend, or you can go meet some schmuck
in a bar and have a beer with them to
see if you like them. I mean, the opportunity cost
is just too high for their really high value women.

(21:00):
So the best people aren't on there at all, Okay,
just to be clear about that, healthy and desirable people
are not on dating sites, okay. And that's why, you know,
maybe twenty years ago Tinder was hot and all these
dating sites.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Now everyone's having such an awful time with them.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
That matchmaking is actually coming to the four and having
people introduced to you in real life. And yeah, we
definitely suggest going offline and doing real world stuff. So
one of the things we talk about is you're really
in a bunch of different sexual marketplaces.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
One is work, one is your gym.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
One is online dating sites, or you know, maybe if
you go to faith community like a church or whatever.
Those are all different, actually sexual marketplaces, and you have
to figure out which ones work for you. And it
may be some of the dating sites, it might be
none of the dating sites. There's you know a lot
of people look down and say passport bros. Men who
will go to other countries where women don't have the

(21:51):
same attitudes about careers and their self importance and so on,
and finding relationships there. That's just a smart because you're
just picking a different sexual marketplace to play in, one
that you're more likely to be successful in.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Now, one of the things that's the very important that
I think most other dating books do not touch upon enough. Listen,
we might hear the alpha male mindset about you know,
getting yourself together, being rich, getting yourself in shape, and
being the best version of you. That's great, But then
there's also the part where the dating mark you say
is conditional must be continutely proven. So there's a part

(22:32):
about where you need to go make you gotta love yourself,
make yourself the best version of yourself. But then it's
also the fact of where women, you know, we don't
it's the part of they want to show they want
to continue to test you and prove that you know
your value and you prove your value to them, and
you have to continue to do that, and it's a
constant thing. And I know for me that is difficult

(22:55):
to going to do, and it's to keep that up
on a regular basis. It can be a bit disheartening,
and you know, I can thought I always could try
to get set back by it. But tell me about
that importance of trying to continue to understand You've got
to make yourself the best version of yourself all. She realized,
you don't need to be chasing. You need to realize
how you could be looked at and how women should
be coming to you, because the best version of you

(23:18):
is attractive.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yes, okay, so let's let's talk about the you know,
some of the red pill stuff. I happen to be
somebody recommended like, I guess it's The Rational Nail by
Rollo Tamasi and he's got a bazillion likes, you know,
you know Amazon reviews. It's a horrible book. He's got
some evolutionary psychology in there, but it's mixed with a
bunch of shits, so it's like digging through shit to
find a gold.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Nugget or two. I'm sorry, I don't like this. I agree.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
Anyway, so you know, the premise is that you should
all be alpha's, Well you can't. The whole point is
alpha is somebody was dominant and you and they have
to be subordinate. So look, all of a sudden, everyone's
in alpha and they're gonna be banging chicks right and left,
and that seems to be the goal. There's no you know,
the guy's actually marry and has two kids, as I
understand it, and he's not really practicing that or advocating,

(24:03):
but he's advocating it. I think that's really short sighted,
is to think of women as just sexual gratification and variety.
That's not what this book is about. And we're just
unpacking what we evolve for. And like I said, we
have complementary needs. It's not like one side of the
gender war is going to win. If one side wins,
there's no more relationships.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
We all lose. The human race goes away. You know.
That's it's as simple as that. It's that fundamental anyway.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
But to back to that earlier thing that you were saying,
one of the important things for men to understand, or
for everyone understands, is that there's a crossing of curves.
We have a whole chapter about this in the book.
In other words, you can't just talk about men and women.
You have to talk about life stage. So here's the deal.
Women get their sexual marketplace value instantly, that's handed to them.

(24:48):
Your highest desirability, whatever that means, is at eighteen to twenty,
and it goes down the rest of their lives. For women,
whereas for men, it starts slow because think about it, like, Okay,
you're figuring out a put on your zip cream and
stuff like that, or not look awkward in high school photos.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
I mean you're useless.

Speaker 3 (25:06):
You're useless to young women because they're getting propositioned by
much higher resource, better established men. And you're useless to
other men because you don't know shit. And so for
the first twenty years of your existence as an adult,
you have to grind in two directions. Now, this part
is largely correct. You have to learn how to attract
women and enter into relationships. That's practice, nothing more and

(25:28):
nothing less. So if you're stuck in your phone, you're
not getting any practice.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
The second thing you have to do is create a
lifestyle that's going to be attractive to women, which means
that men work for their power. So men's sexual marketplace
value peaks at fifty there's a wide peak from forty
to sixty. So the way to think about it is
that men should be just working for their power for
decades and not jump at the first person off from

(25:55):
SAX and marry them, whereas women should actually try to
lock in as a strategy the highest value guide possible
as early as possible. Yeah, before their sexual marketplace value
declines the crossover points in thirty. After thirty, men have
a sustained, on average and growing advantage. By the time
you get to forty to middle age men have a
permanent advantage for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
I'll tell you what I and you could quote me
on this. The book is a man's wake up call
on how they need to go approach dating relationships and
how do you approach your life in general. Because by
putting yourself in the best form of yourself honestly, emotionally, spiritually, physically,
you realize you know the right people come to you,

(26:39):
the right people and friends in life, and the women
that you want to be with, they will find you
and you will attract them. So I love the fact
that you bring this all across. And the thing is
dating and psychology books out there that I've read and
others are out there therapeutic positive adducing. If you do this,
you will get this. No, why don't just realize the

(26:59):
fact that you know you should be doing all this,
that you should try to self improve and love yourself.
And for guys, this is where you need to go
and realize whatever books do you have out there as
you make mention of other books that you know, it's
happy talk.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, exactly. So here's the here's the hard truth.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
And to sum it up for men's path in life
and by the way we do as men, everything everything
we do is to have sexual optionality to breed with
the best people. That is such a strong life force.
If you try to frustrate that, you can say Arab
societies and stuff like that, like young men can't.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Get access to sex.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
That leads to you know, polarization violence we're seeing in
our own society as well. So the everything men do
is to get sexual optionality with women. Let's just be
super clear about that. That is the basic drive to
improve your ass and get off the couch in the basement,
stop playing Fortnite, and actually go do something meaningful in
the world. So that's really important to understand. It's sublimated

(27:58):
sex drive. And so the here's the thing that men
need to understand. You get competent at something, and then
you get confidence without being competent at something, without having
some kind of agency in the world, without being useful
to other men or women, and usually it kind of

(28:18):
ends up being the same if you're you know, career
wise or something like that, that there's no way to
fake it. That's why I have a problem with all
these pickup artists tricks. You know, it's like, hey, just
act like a swaggering asshole and women will fall all
over themselves. Only the really damaged, fucked up ones.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Well okay, but if.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
You want to actually have that genuine confidence, you have
to build competence.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
And that's the part is that there have been so
many books and so many different techniques about pickup artists
or various approaches to go ahead, and you know, kind
of backhanded combots, all these different things that have been
out there.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
There's no short cutricks. They're just tricks.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
And maybe you might sleep with a couple of girls
in the other day, but that doesn't give you fulfilling relationships,
fulfilling anything interactions.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
And by the way, when we talk about relationships, there
are actually three different chemical systems that bond men and women,
and they don't always happen in order, and if you're
in different stages of bonding, they could be pretty painful
depending on who you are in the relationship, but basically
you're there. The first one is lust, Okay, I just
I want to screw you. The second one makes you

(29:23):
want to lock into exclusivity. I found a really good
one and I'm going to put all of my focus
and attention on them. And the third bonding system kicks
in long term attachment, and again that's usually when you
have kids. So men and women, these things again happen independently,
and they don't have to happen in that order. And
if men and women are in different stages of that,

(29:43):
it is good to hurt psychologically a lot because there's
a mismatch in the bonding systems. But it's all just
freaking chemistry. Basically, if someone's standing in front of you
under the right circumstances, all of a sudden you love
them and you think they walk on water and they're
the best thing that you've ever met. It's just a
chem reaction designed to have you be together long enough

(30:04):
to have helpless babies for a few years. By the way,
we're not monogamous as a species, and we bond for
long enough to have vible offswings. So from an evolutionary standpoint,
it's brutal. It's this sorting thing. You find someone roughly
in your ballpark, and you bond with them and you
have kids with them to the point where they can

(30:24):
in turn grow up to be somebody that can have
kids of their own.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
That's it.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Anything else that you want to put on top of
that is not evolution, and evolution doesn't give a shit
about anything else. Like your soul made your happiness in midlife.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Good luck with all of that stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
And I also want to make the point that you
have a great counterbalance in this book because your co author,
doctor Lamore Gottlieb, PhD Psychology also evolutionary psychologists and her
own right and her own right, and you know the
balance that was able to come off of this book.
I want to make sure to make that point across.
Tell me about how important doctor Lamore was to help
giving you that balance that you needed for them.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Moore is an amazing person and just an incredible scientist
as well. In her work in evolutionary psychology actually focused
on relationships, non monogamy, intimate partner violence, so she is
the evolutionary psychology of relationships. So this is a gold
mine to have found her through our mutual friend Susan Bratton,
whom you know of course, and so it was really

(31:22):
fun writing the book. She kept me honest on the science.
I was out in front of my skis a few times,
but she reined me back in. So the book is
really solid. But by the way, it's not like some
popular science book. It's a self help book. We wrote
it with a lot of humor. It should be really
an easy read. But the basic setup of the book
is we talk about the evolutionary psychology, jealousy, non monogamy,

(31:45):
hypurgam me again, women selecting for the best, and so
on in the asymmetries between men and women. Then we
talk about the modern dating healthscape and how modern society,
which we weren't designed to live and distorts it. And
then we have a guide for women from the men's
perspective and the guide for men from the women's perspective,
And you should really read both. One will give you
self knowledge and one will help you understand the other gender.

(32:07):
And because they're so radically different and asymmetric, you need
to understand both perspectives.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
And to make the point once again, I'm talking about
from the men's at that point, because I think the men,
in my opinion, really need a lot of the help
that really have the understanding where that comes away from
this book. But as you said, this book for both genders.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
So and it's for it's not just for dating.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
It's anyone that wants to have a you know, if
you're married or you have a long term relationship and
you want to improve it, it's really good to understand
this stuff. So for example, like one of the things
you said was that women will always test you. Yeah, well, again,
that is evolutionary psychology roots because before you didn't know
about your four oh one k or your big house.
You were running around and trying not to get eaten
by lions. So she wanted a man who could provide

(32:52):
every day. And so she's going to test you to
see if she's got your full attention and your full provisioning,
your time, your resources, and emotional support. And if you
start slipping on that, she's got a monkey branch over
the next tree and find somebody who's better. So women
will never stop testing. And if you hope that you've
paid your dues and done all the right things and
now you're in a good relationship, and that stops no way,

(33:14):
because their psychology is telling them they need to make
sure that the provisioning from their man is not slipping.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
And could you also I always think about this too,
And then this doesn't get stressed enough. When you look
at couples that are out there that are very happy relationships,
very happy marriages, how many of those are to both
partners are in shape, they're both very active, they're both
very much Whereas if if that guy was being tested
to prove he can still prove himself to his wife

(33:44):
or this partner on a regular basis, because it just
doesn't matter. There's something can be said about where you.
You know, if you get married, you don't let yourself
go off to the honeymoon. The woman should not let
herself go. You need to keep yourself in the best
possible conditions.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
You can't and the man too should remain unknown in
some sense and attractive to other women. You don't want
to be her therapist and her best friend. Like women
are always saying, you be my best friend. Well, if
the mystery's gone and they think that they've got you
in the bag, they and you never have to They never.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Have to worry about you.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
They should be worrying about you, at least on a
subconscious level. That will make them more attracted to you.
If they think, wow, I bet he's attractive to other
women as well. That should be kind of an unstated
thought in their minds all the time. That doesn't mean
be a dick or actually cheat when whatever your relationship
goals are. But the point is you should be mysterious
and remain an option for other women. Because actually the

(34:39):
way women select men is they use a shortcut. Just
like men can visually inspect the women, women look at
men who are surrounded by other attractive women. That is
what is like their due diligence. It's like this shortcut
that says, Okay, someone spend time with them and deciety
is worth having. Or like if you have a wedding ring,
you're notoriously more attractive women because somebody said that was

(35:01):
their best option, right, So women are using that as
a way to evaluate potential partners. So always remain attractive
to other women. Doesn't mean you have to act on it,
but you should. That should be your mindset.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
One thing I want to mention Tim. We're going to
wrap things up and tell people how to get the book,
but it's the one part you had talked about where
guys will talk about that the wife or their girlfriend
as their better half, or that you're looking for someone
that completes you. That is bullshit. Yeah, that I felt
like a slapped in the face because you said it
exactly right and I and it was like that really

(35:35):
got my attention to it. I was like, man, you
got to just be the best version of yourself. And
this is the part where this is a lot of
work I got to continue to do on myself. When
I read this book, I'm saying, shit, I got a
lot of work to do, man, so much work to do.
And it's like, what if I'm wasting my time on
I'm like, damn it, man, you really I wish this
book was out center. But I'll tell you we're going

(35:55):
to stop right here because people need to go pick
up this book. Highly endorse it. You have to pick
up this book. It's not even a question. I implore
all men out there, go pick up this book. It's
over you know again. Primal dating dot Com is the
main website, and of course all places where you find
books find it out paperback. You can find.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
Out favorite back in the books.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Some people have been asking about the audiobook version, but
we're not planning that for at least another year. And
by the way, you're gonna want to take notes all
over those books. I suggest actually buying the paperback or
and then you can do that in kindle take notes
as well. But get something where you can take notes,
because this is your workbook for relationships.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
No, and I guarantee you you're gonna have to read
it again and again because you're not gonna get it
all in the first shot. You're gonna have to go
back one more time and read it again to make
sure you get everything is being said. Because this is
a guide to life. Absolutely is. I'm not this is
not smoking mirrors. I mean it. When I read this book,
there's maybe only one other book I ever read on
dating that really changed the way I look at things.

(36:58):
And that's it. This book right here, you have to
go get I don't plug anything on this program like that,
but I'm telling you got to go find this book.
The book once again, tim Ash, doctor Lamore Gottlieb. It
is Primal Dating, the unflinching evolutionary psychology guide to modern Relationships.
Go get the book, now, go get it. You have to.

(37:20):
It's going to change your life. Tim Ash once Again,
author promal dating. Thanks for being on my program, and
I really appreciate it. I'm glad we got the chance
to go talk about this, and man, I can't believe
that you know, after all this time we will get
to this point to talk about a book like this
and you would get to go and expand on the career.
You had to do something like this and tap into
the psychology work you've done in the past and bring

(37:40):
a great book like this to the masses. Thank you
for that.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, my pleasure.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
It was.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
You know. Our hope with doctor Godlieb is that this
will open some eyes and like I said, dear Relationships
reality Base, so you'll have more piece, more insights, and
better success hopefully in what you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
So go do it. Thank you again, Tim, I appreciate
you being on the program.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
As always, it was my pleasure, brother,

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Primal Dating: The Modern Answer to Dating (Based on Evolutionary Psychology)

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