February 25, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode I spoke with Taylor Downing about his latest book " The Army that Never Was: George S. Patton and the Deception of Operation Fortitude ".On May 29th, 1944, General George S. Patton gave a speech in the southeast of England to the men of the U.S. Army where he spoke of the American desire to win and of how losing was hateful to Americans.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Ernie Pole World War
Two Museum Podcast, your podcast of Ernie Pyle, the voice
of the American soldier during World War Two. My name
is Doug has and if returning into this podcast for
the first time. What we do on this podcast to
share with you pieces of Pile's life, from his humble
beginning on an Indiana farm to becoming a politic surprise
(00:36):
winning the American journalists and war correspondent. It was best
known for his stories about ordinary American soldiers during World
War Two. But today we have a very special guest
with us, Taylor Downing, and he's going to be talking
about his book The Army That Never Was, George S.
Patten and the Deception of Operation Fortitude. Taylor, welcome to
(01:00):
the Only Power World War II Museum Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
It's our pleasure and thank you for spending a few
minutes with us today. And I know we're going to
be talking about patent General Patten, who was not I
guess we could say not an ordinary American soldier during
World War Two?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Now? He certainly wasn't. He was a remarkable figure. I mean,
where to begin with his story. He was a great
military historian. He was fascinated by the classical the battles
of antiquity. At one point when he was inactive in Sicily,
at the end of the campaign in Sicily, a local
(01:42):
met him and said, oh, what are you doing, General Patten,
thinking thinking that he'd be planning the next campaign, He said, oh,
I'm reading the classical. I'm reading Theodo. He said, I'm
reading Thucinides and various other classical author about battles of
two thousand years ago, which absolutely astonished the person who
(02:04):
was asking him the question. So he was a very
remarkable man, and he of course had disgraced himself somewhat
in Sicily. Although he led his soldiers very effectively in
conquering the island in the sort of record time, he
had had this incident where he'd slapped too privates in
(02:24):
two separate incidents and abused them, told them, these are
guys suffering from what they called at the time battle fatigue,
we would call it today post traumatic stress disorder. And
he'd slap them and threatened them and said, you know,
get back into line, new yellow cowards, and all this
sort of stuff, which was deeply shocking a three star general,
you know, physically abusing private soldiers and his commanding office
(02:49):
so generalizing how had reprimanded him and effectively taken him
out of the line. And in the following year when
the planning came up for D Day for the big,
biggest operation of the war so far, for the invasion
of northern Europe. In normal circumstances, Patton would have been
(03:09):
playing a leading role, but as I say, he was
in disgrace from these incidents in Sicily, Eisenhare I think
very wisely kept him on his staff. He'd resisted demands
from a lot of newspapers and indeed some congressmen in
the United States to sack Pattern, but he kept him
on command, but he didn't give him a combat role.
(03:33):
And then this dramatic operation Operation Fortitude, to try and
deceive the Germans as to where the invasion was going
to come, came along, and they invented a complete new
army group based in the south east of England that
was pretending it would invade not across the stretch of
(03:54):
the English Channel to Normandy, where we know the invasion
on D Day did happen, and it was pretending it
was going to attack across the shortest stretch of the
English Channel. It's only about twenty miles to the part
of Calais from Dover in southeast of England. You can
actually see the cliffs at the pad of Calais, you know,
it's that close. And so in many ways this was
(04:16):
an obvious place where the invasion would take place, you know,
the smallest amount of sea to cross. But this new
army that they completely invented needed a commander and pattern who,
as I say, was without a job effectively or without
a combat job, was put in charge of this imaginary army,
(04:36):
what I call in the book the Army that never was,
and he played the role brilliantly, no doubt he would
have preferred to be commanding an actual unit planning for
the real invasion. But he was a great showman.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
He always turned up looking immaculate in fantastically you know,
freshly iron smart clothes. He looked every inch the warrior,
standing bolt upright as he gave speeches to his troops,
as he inspected troops and so on, so he looked
the great warrior. He acted the part very very well.
(05:14):
Everywhere he went he was surrounded by cameraman who photographed
him talking to these pretend soldiers that didn't exist. At
one point, even the King George the sixth, the King
of England, turned up to sort of jointly inspect troops
with him. So it was a big charade they put on,
and Patten absolutely rose to the task of the commander
(05:37):
of this great, big army group based in the southeast
of England.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
You know, Tilory, you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Joe Eisenhower, and when I was reading your book, I
kind of got the impression that he had a love
hate relationship with Patten. So he knew he needed Patten
because the Germans kind of feared him in terms of that.
But he also was and they were friends. For disclosure,
they knew each other prior to World War Two. But
(06:08):
he was also getting a little tired of trying to
protect his friend. I believe he said that, I don't
forget if it was Marshall or Bradley that he was
talking to in a letter that said he was getting
really tired of that. But I kind of got the
impression at the end of the day, the need outweighed
(06:30):
the discussion, the risk.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
The risk.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, I think that's a great way of saying that, yeah, yeah, no,
I think you're absolutely right. I mean, Eisenhower was very frustrated,
outraged by some of some of the things Pattern said.
He had the ability, you know, to really to put
his foot in it, right, even when he was in England,
you know, being fairly passive before taking on his job
(06:54):
as the commander of this imaginary army, he managed to
to alienate the US Press Corps with a speech he
gave to a group of women. In fact, you know,
every time he seemed to open his mouth, you know,
he put his foot in it sort of thing. And
Eisenhower was getting increasingly exhausted by sort of having to
(07:15):
defend him. But he rightly knew that Pattern.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Was a great general.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
He had a fantastically aggressive spirit. He'd understood the strategy,
the tactics of armored warfare right from the First World War.
He led a tank brigade in the First World War,
you know, the first ever US armored unit to go
into action in nineteen eighteen. He'd been right there in
the front then, so he really knew his staff did patten.
(07:43):
And I think Eisenhower was absolutely right. He made the
right call in defending his friend and fellow general, although
a more junior general than he and kept him on.
And of course, you know later in the war, after
the day after the invasion, after the deception campaigns was over,
(08:05):
Patteren did indeed go on to lead the US Third Army,
which advanced an incredible speed across northern France in the
late summer of nineteen forty four and then across Germany
in nineteen forty five. One of the lovely messages that
I like to recall that Pattern sent was that I
(08:27):
think it was in March, might have been early April
nineteen forty five, Patten was leading an army actually reporting
this time too Bradley and Bradley wanted them to move
quickly and not be distracted with capturing towns, all of
which would take several days to overwhelm the town and
then bring order to the sort of chaos in Germany.
(08:49):
And Bradley sends to Pattern a message saying avoid Trier,
the German city of Trier, and just carry on. Aplies
to Bradley saying I've already captured Treere, do you want
me to give it back?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
So he.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Was a very aggressive commander. He went all out for speed,
for offensive tactics. And again this as well as the
role I describe in my book in nineteen forty four,
the later actions of Pattern in the war absolutely justified
Eisenhower's defense of his colleague and justifying keeping him on
(09:32):
the staff. He added a lot to the latter phases
of the war in Europe.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You know, you also mentioned in your book about Bradley,
who just basically had the opposite opinion of Pattern. I
kind of got the impression that he understood the value
of Pattern, but he even said in the book where
he said, if I've been his superior, I would have dismissed.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Him and sitting him home, basically because he.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Got tired of the show, for lack of a better word,
that Patten was having.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Think in the book it describes it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
He had the flag with the three stars on it,
and he had the bodyguards, and he had a press
and all that, and Bradley was, as we all know,
was more of a simple man and didn't like the
attention to him that Pattern obviously created.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
They were men a very very different personality and character,
and they did manage to get along sort of. But
I think you're absolutely right Bradley was annoyed by the
sort of flamboyance, the extravagance that went with Pattern everywhere
he drove. He drove in a convoy vehicles at high speed,
as you say, with his three star flags flying and
(10:45):
pressman leaping out every time the jeep stopped to take
photographs and record film footage and so on, whereas Bradley
just wanted to get on with the job and concentrate
on defeating the enemy in the most efficient way possible.
So they were very, very, very different. But you know,
armies need all these different types to be successful. It
needs the cool hand of an Eisenhower, it needs the
(11:09):
sort of forensic approach to the details of war of
a Bradley, and sometimes it needs the flamboyants and the
aggressiveness of a Pattern. And they all, in the end,
you know, fitted in with each other very well.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Absolutely. Now you know, when it comes to the army
that never was in your opinion, obviously it was pretty effective.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I mean, the Germans kind of took debit, if you will.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
We know during the invasion on D Day that even
Hitler was afraid to release some of his troops because
he was really anticipating patent. It's really kind of remarkable
that to be twenty miles away from the shore that
they could really pull this operation off and have the
(11:57):
success that they did.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, it was an extraordinary successful operation. And creating an
imaginary army of two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand men,
you know, it's not an easy operation. So what were
the key elements of that. Well, first of all, there
were a few troops that were genuine forces that were
training for D Day that were allocated to this imaginary group,
(12:22):
the First US Army Group FUSAG, it was called as
its acronym, So there were some genuine troops, and there
was a whole signaling units that was allocated that sent
out endless signals that would have been generated by an
army of this size, an army of a quarter of
a million men. These were sort of messages going down
(12:43):
the system, as it were, from the high command to
the unit saying, you know, on Tuesday, we're having an
exercise doing this, and on Thursday, these number of men
will report here to that this officer to carry out
this exercise, and there'll be training regimes for this, that
and the other. And then there was also mesages sort
of going back up the command asking questions, and they
(13:05):
very sense ofbly included bits of gossip in all these messages.
You know, have you heard that Captain so and so
has just been court martialed for this and the utter,
or you know Colonel so and so has been caught
with a mistress in wherever it might be, and so on,
So there was lots of gossip including it. Now, the
Germans picked up some of this, and actually because it
was all in relatively simple code, so the Germans picked
(13:28):
up some of it, but they also just picked up
the volume of traffic that was going back with some force.
They didn't need to sort of decode every word of
it to know that there was a big group of
troops apparently gathering in the southeast of England. So that's
one thing. So there's a few general actually real troops,
a lot of signaling messages signifying a much bigger group.
(13:51):
And then they brought in the film industry, which is
one of the areas that I researched and got really
quite excited about in my book. They brought in the
film to create a whole series of as it were, props,
They created dummy tanks. These were things that from the
air from aerial reconnaissance looked absolutely real, but it actually
was just made rubber on a steel or on a
(14:13):
wooden frame. These Sherman A four tanks that would normally
be about thirty thirty six tons, you know, four men
could lift up and carry around and put down somewhere else.
And they produced hundreds of these, and they lined them
up in giant assembly depots, just like the depots that
were being put together in the southwest of England for
the real invasion. They built dummy landing craft. These were
(14:39):
much much bigger things made of steel and canvas that
floated on the in the coastal waters around the southeast
of England. Again, over two hundred and fifty of these
landing craft were produced.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
When you got up.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Close to them, they didn't look anything like the real thing,
but they were intended to be photographed from from aerial
reconnaissance so that they would look real. And the genius
of employing these film technicians, you know, it's like sort
of taking Hollywood to war. Almost. It was one particular
studio in the west of London, Sheperdon Studios, but it
was like taking Hollywood to war. What are these what
(15:16):
do these guys do for real. They produce artificial sets,
artificial props that look good on camera but are completely unreal.
And so they managed to produce literally, as I say,
hundreds of tanks, hundreds of landing craft. They produced aircraft
that they put on put on sort of dummy runways
and dummy airfields. They produced an entire apparently a fuel
(15:40):
depot near Dover, the port of Dover on the coast
in the southeast of England, that again, on the ground,
looked like a stage set, but from above it was
just made of canvas and scaffolding and old, old piping
from from from the bomb the remains of bombed London.
From the ground it looked completely unconvincing, but from the
(16:01):
air it looked good. And then what they did very
cleverly they adopted a policy of what was called, I
think rather nicely discrete display. So they would allow German
reconnaissance aircraft very occasionally to fly over the southeast of
England to take their photographs to record these apparently vast
(16:21):
numbers of tanks and landing craft and aircraft gathering. There
was no point doing all this if the Germans didn't
know about it, so they had to in the southwest
of England, where the real army was preparing for the
real invasion. There was total camouflage, no aircraft, no reconnaissance
aircraft were allowed over But this lovely concept of discrete
(16:42):
display meant that every now and again they would, oh,
dear goodness me, there's a reconnaissance aircraft flying overhead. Well
never mind, you know, let them take their photographs. And
then the photo interpreters back in occupied Europe or in Germany,
you know, looked at these photographs and said, my goodness,
but only we got one of the most famous Allied
commanders in charge. They've got hundreds of landing craft, thousands
(17:04):
of tanks, a whole air armada to back them up.
And so this became very, very convincing, and it does
seem to have going back to your point, it does
seem to have completely impressed or convinced the German intelligence
community that yes, there was this very large army gathering.
(17:27):
The target was going to be the part of Calais,
which is the stretch of French coasts from about sort
of Dunkirk de Boulogne. If your listeners know that the
geography of that part of France northwest France, there was
an army. There are a large army, the fifteenth Army
will gather there, the German fifteenth Army gathering that they
(17:49):
dug in they produced. They built these huge concrete defenses,
giant gun emplacements along the tops of the cliffs. Some
of them are so enormous you can still see them today.
You can see the remains of them if any of
your listeners traveled in that part of France. There is
still a lot of evidence of this huge section of
(18:10):
the Atlantic Wall. And so this fifteenth Army spent the
whole of June and until about mid July twiddling its fingers,
waiting for the invasion to come. Because this wasn't just
to deceive the Germans before the invasion where it's going
(18:30):
to become after the invasion had taken place. They wanted
to pretend that the Normandy landings were just a faint
were just a sort of side show, and the real McCoy,
the real show was still to come two hundred miles
away in the part of la So the German commanders yes,
fell for it and kept this fifteenth Army. There were
(18:52):
two panzer divisions. There was different numbers at different times,
but at least ten other infantry divisions twiddling their fingers
in the part of Kla while some of the most
decisive battles of the Second World War were being fought
two hundred miles away in Normandy. Goodness knows what difference
it would have made. It's one of the big what
ifs of history. Had Hitler and the High Command just said, right,
(19:17):
you know, this is the invasion in Normandy. Get every
man we can into the Normandy battlefields. You know, it
could have made a very, very big difference. We'll never know.
But the point was that this Operation Fortitude, this deception campaign,
was completely successful in keeping the fifteenth Army the huge
(19:39):
number of troops in the part of Kla. And I
should just add that there was another deception. They invented
an army, the British fourth Army, in Scotland, in the
north of Britain, that was apparently going to invade Normandy.
And again all sorts of leaks, apparent leaks were let
out that that this army was practicing in Scotland landing
(20:03):
and they were using ski troops and they were going
to land in Norway and try and strike at the
Swedish iron ore fields that were supplying Germany with a
lot of its iron ore, and again that was successful
and in keeping about one hundred and eighty thousand men
in the Norwegian garrison Idle. You know, these men, both
(20:24):
in the part of la and in Norway could have
been very effectively used in Normandy or even on the
Eastern Front and might well have turned the Tider battle.
But these deception campaigns were absolutely crucial, and they stayed
these troops stayed in the wrong place while well the
(20:44):
really decisive battles were being fought and won in and
around Normandy.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Absolutely Tinlor, I know we're getting closer on Ty, but
I do have one last question for you. During the
writing and the research of this book, what surprised you?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I think a lot of things surprised me. It was
a lovely book to research and write because a lot
of the stories that these deception people came up with,
these deceibits came up with, were more like fiction than fact.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Doug.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You know, they were so inventive in some of their stories.
You know, at one point they found a lookerike, a
man who looked like General Montgomery, who they sent to Gibraltar,
knowing that the Germans had a based in Spain. Gibraltar's
a little outpost really within Spain. Spain was neutral, but
was overall fairly sympathetic to the Germans, and they knew
(21:39):
that there was a unit not far from Gibraltar airfield
with very powerful telescopes and they would pick up who
came and went from the airfield at Gibraltar. And they
sent this look alike to pretend to be Montgomery just
before D Day to inspect troops at Gibraltar, and again
(22:00):
to deceive the Germans that well, how you know, obviously
they're not planning the armies that Montgomery leading are planning
some other attack, maybe in North Africa or in the
south of France or something completely different. So a lot
of the ideas they came up with were wonderfully inventive
and creative and as I say, more like fiction than fact.
(22:24):
So that really did fascinate me a lot. You know,
would we have people with that sort of creativity, you know,
an influence at the top of the command structures today?
I don't know that we would. But anyway, it was
very impressive what they came up with. Not only this
army in Southeast England, this army in Scotland. But you know,
(22:45):
all sorts of other tricks that were constantly being played
on the Germans, all of which added up to a
sort of very major deception campaign through the war. But
the other thing I've already mentioned, I was absolutely fascinated
to see how the film industry, the British film industry,
was called upon to create the props, if you like,
to give the sort of the visual evidence, or the pretend,
(23:10):
the phony visual evidence of the existence of these military units.
And how simple these these modeled tanks and aircraft and
so on were, but how effective they were. All they
had to do was look good from twenty thousand feet
from an aircraft twenty thousand feet photographing them below. And
(23:33):
they did. They did look just the part, and so
on so many levels. This was a very creative period
in a very bitter, intense and hard fought war.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Absolutely well, Taylor, thank you so much for coming on
and spinning a few minutes with us today, And to
our listeners, please go out and get a copy of
Taylor's book, The Army That Never Worked Us. George S.
Patton and the Deception of Operational Fortitude You're not going
to be disappointed. This was just a tip of the
iceberg of what's in there in that book, and I
(24:09):
think you're really going to enjoy it. You pick it
up wherever you purchase your books. And again, Taylor, thank
you so much for spending just a few minutes with
us today to talk about your latest book.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Thank you very much, Doc, thanks for having me well.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ernie
Power World War Two Museum Podcast.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Thank you for listening, and we will see you soon.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Ernie Pole World War
Two Museum Podcast, your podcast of Ernie Pyle, the voice
of the American soldier during World War Two. My name
is Doug has and if returning into this podcast for
the first time. What we do on this podcast to
share with you pieces of Pile's life, from his humble
beginning on an Indiana farm to becoming a politic surprise
(00:36):
winning the American journalists and war correspondent. It was best
known for his stories about ordinary American soldiers during World
War Two. But today we have a very special guest
with us, Taylor Downing, and he's going to be talking
about his book The Army That Never Was, George S.
Patten and the Deception of Operation Fortitude. Taylor, welcome to
(01:00):
the Only Power World War II Museum Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
It's our pleasure and thank you for spending a few
minutes with us today. And I know we're going to
be talking about patent General Patten, who was not I
guess we could say not an ordinary American soldier during
World War Two?
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Now? He certainly wasn't. He was a remarkable figure. I mean,
where to begin with his story. He was a great
military historian. He was fascinated by the classical the battles
of antiquity. At one point when he was inactive in Sicily,
at the end of the campaign in Sicily, a local
(01:42):
met him and said, oh, what are you doing, General Patten,
thinking thinking that he'd be planning the next campaign, He said, oh,
I'm reading the classical. I'm reading Theodo. He said, I'm
reading Thucinides and various other classical author about battles of
two thousand years ago, which absolutely astonished the person who
(02:04):
was asking him the question. So he was a very
remarkable man, and he of course had disgraced himself somewhat
in Sicily. Although he led his soldiers very effectively in
conquering the island in the sort of record time, he
had had this incident where he'd slapped too privates in
(02:24):
two separate incidents and abused them, told them, these are
guys suffering from what they called at the time battle fatigue,
we would call it today post traumatic stress disorder. And
he'd slap them and threatened them and said, you know,
get back into line, new yellow cowards, and all this
sort of stuff, which was deeply shocking a three star general,
you know, physically abusing private soldiers and his commanding office
(02:49):
so generalizing how had reprimanded him and effectively taken him
out of the line. And in the following year when
the planning came up for D Day for the big,
biggest operation of the war so far, for the invasion
of northern Europe. In normal circumstances, Patton would have been
(03:09):
playing a leading role, but as I say, he was
in disgrace from these incidents in Sicily, Eisenhare I think
very wisely kept him on his staff. He'd resisted demands
from a lot of newspapers and indeed some congressmen in
the United States to sack Pattern, but he kept him
on command, but he didn't give him a combat role.
(03:33):
And then this dramatic operation Operation Fortitude, to try and
deceive the Germans as to where the invasion was going
to come, came along, and they invented a complete new
army group based in the south east of England that
was pretending it would invade not across the stretch of
(03:54):
the English Channel to Normandy, where we know the invasion
on D Day did happen, and it was pretending it
was going to attack across the shortest stretch of the
English Channel. It's only about twenty miles to the part
of Calais from Dover in southeast of England. You can
actually see the cliffs at the pad of Calais, you know,
it's that close. And so in many ways this was
(04:16):
an obvious place where the invasion would take place, you know,
the smallest amount of sea to cross. But this new
army that they completely invented needed a commander and pattern who,
as I say, was without a job effectively or without
a combat job, was put in charge of this imaginary army,
(04:36):
what I call in the book the Army that never was,
and he played the role brilliantly, no doubt he would
have preferred to be commanding an actual unit planning for
the real invasion. But he was a great showman.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
He always turned up looking immaculate in fantastically you know,
freshly iron smart clothes. He looked every inch the warrior,
standing bolt upright as he gave speeches to his troops,
as he inspected troops and so on, so he looked
the great warrior. He acted the part very very well.
(05:14):
Everywhere he went he was surrounded by cameraman who photographed
him talking to these pretend soldiers that didn't exist. At
one point, even the King George the sixth, the King
of England, turned up to sort of jointly inspect troops
with him. So it was a big charade they put on,
and Patten absolutely rose to the task of the commander
(05:37):
of this great, big army group based in the southeast
of England.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
You know, Tilory, you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Joe Eisenhower, and when I was reading your book, I
kind of got the impression that he had a love
hate relationship with Patten. So he knew he needed Patten
because the Germans kind of feared him in terms of that.
But he also was and they were friends. For disclosure,
they knew each other prior to World War Two. But
(06:08):
he was also getting a little tired of trying to
protect his friend. I believe he said that, I don't
forget if it was Marshall or Bradley that he was
talking to in a letter that said he was getting
really tired of that. But I kind of got the
impression at the end of the day, the need outweighed
(06:30):
the discussion, the risk.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
The risk.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, I think that's a great way of saying that, yeah, yeah, no,
I think you're absolutely right. I mean, Eisenhower was very frustrated,
outraged by some of some of the things Pattern said.
He had the ability, you know, to really to put
his foot in it, right, even when he was in England,
you know, being fairly passive before taking on his job
(06:54):
as the commander of this imaginary army, he managed to
to alienate the US Press Corps with a speech he
gave to a group of women. In fact, you know,
every time he seemed to open his mouth, you know,
he put his foot in it sort of thing. And
Eisenhower was getting increasingly exhausted by sort of having to
(07:15):
defend him. But he rightly knew that Pattern.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Was a great general.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
He had a fantastically aggressive spirit. He'd understood the strategy,
the tactics of armored warfare right from the First World War.
He led a tank brigade in the First World War,
you know, the first ever US armored unit to go
into action in nineteen eighteen. He'd been right there in
the front then, so he really knew his staff did patten.
(07:43):
And I think Eisenhower was absolutely right. He made the
right call in defending his friend and fellow general, although
a more junior general than he and kept him on.
And of course, you know later in the war, after
the day after the invasion, after the deception campaigns was over,
(08:05):
Patteren did indeed go on to lead the US Third Army,
which advanced an incredible speed across northern France in the
late summer of nineteen forty four and then across Germany
in nineteen forty five. One of the lovely messages that
I like to recall that Pattern sent was that I
(08:27):
think it was in March, might have been early April
nineteen forty five, Patten was leading an army actually reporting
this time too Bradley and Bradley wanted them to move
quickly and not be distracted with capturing towns, all of
which would take several days to overwhelm the town and
then bring order to the sort of chaos in Germany.
(08:49):
And Bradley sends to Pattern a message saying avoid Trier,
the German city of Trier, and just carry on. Aplies
to Bradley saying I've already captured Treere, do you want
me to give it back?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
So he.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Was a very aggressive commander. He went all out for speed,
for offensive tactics. And again this as well as the
role I describe in my book in nineteen forty four,
the later actions of Pattern in the war absolutely justified
Eisenhower's defense of his colleague and justifying keeping him on
(09:32):
the staff. He added a lot to the latter phases
of the war in Europe.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You know, you also mentioned in your book about Bradley,
who just basically had the opposite opinion of Pattern. I
kind of got the impression that he understood the value
of Pattern, but he even said in the book where
he said, if I've been his superior, I would have dismissed.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Him and sitting him home, basically because he.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Got tired of the show, for lack of a better word,
that Patten was having.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Think in the book it describes it.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
He had the flag with the three stars on it,
and he had the bodyguards, and he had a press
and all that, and Bradley was, as we all know,
was more of a simple man and didn't like the
attention to him that Pattern obviously created.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
They were men a very very different personality and character,
and they did manage to get along sort of. But
I think you're absolutely right Bradley was annoyed by the
sort of flamboyance, the extravagance that went with Pattern everywhere
he drove. He drove in a convoy vehicles at high speed,
as you say, with his three star flags flying and
(10:45):
pressman leaping out every time the jeep stopped to take
photographs and record film footage and so on, whereas Bradley
just wanted to get on with the job and concentrate
on defeating the enemy in the most efficient way possible.
So they were very, very, very different. But you know,
armies need all these different types to be successful. It
needs the cool hand of an Eisenhower, it needs the
(11:09):
sort of forensic approach to the details of war of
a Bradley, and sometimes it needs the flamboyants and the
aggressiveness of a Pattern. And they all, in the end,
you know, fitted in with each other very well.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Absolutely. Now you know, when it comes to the army
that never was in your opinion, obviously it was pretty effective.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I mean, the Germans kind of took debit, if you will.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
We know during the invasion on D Day that even
Hitler was afraid to release some of his troops because
he was really anticipating patent. It's really kind of remarkable
that to be twenty miles away from the shore that
they could really pull this operation off and have the
(11:57):
success that they did.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Yeah, it was an extraordinary successful operation. And creating an
imaginary army of two hundred and fifty three hundred thousand men,
you know, it's not an easy operation. So what were
the key elements of that. Well, first of all, there
were a few troops that were genuine forces that were
training for D Day that were allocated to this imaginary group,
(12:22):
the First US Army Group FUSAG, it was called as
its acronym, So there were some genuine troops, and there
was a whole signaling units that was allocated that sent
out endless signals that would have been generated by an
army of this size, an army of a quarter of
a million men. These were sort of messages going down
(12:43):
the system, as it were, from the high command to
the unit saying, you know, on Tuesday, we're having an
exercise doing this, and on Thursday, these number of men
will report here to that this officer to carry out
this exercise, and there'll be training regimes for this, that
and the other. And then there was also mesages sort
of going back up the command asking questions, and they
(13:05):
very sense ofbly included bits of gossip in all these messages.
You know, have you heard that Captain so and so
has just been court martialed for this and the utter,
or you know Colonel so and so has been caught
with a mistress in wherever it might be, and so on,
So there was lots of gossip including it. Now, the
Germans picked up some of this, and actually because it
was all in relatively simple code, so the Germans picked
(13:28):
up some of it, but they also just picked up
the volume of traffic that was going back with some force.
They didn't need to sort of decode every word of
it to know that there was a big group of
troops apparently gathering in the southeast of England. So that's
one thing. So there's a few general actually real troops,
a lot of signaling messages signifying a much bigger group.
(13:51):
And then they brought in the film industry, which is
one of the areas that I researched and got really
quite excited about in my book. They brought in the
film to create a whole series of as it were, props,
They created dummy tanks. These were things that from the
air from aerial reconnaissance looked absolutely real, but it actually
was just made rubber on a steel or on a
(14:13):
wooden frame. These Sherman A four tanks that would normally
be about thirty thirty six tons, you know, four men
could lift up and carry around and put down somewhere else.
And they produced hundreds of these, and they lined them
up in giant assembly depots, just like the depots that
were being put together in the southwest of England for
the real invasion. They built dummy landing craft. These were
(14:39):
much much bigger things made of steel and canvas that
floated on the in the coastal waters around the southeast
of England. Again, over two hundred and fifty of these
landing craft were produced.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
When you got up.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Close to them, they didn't look anything like the real thing,
but they were intended to be photographed from from aerial
reconnaissance so that they would look real. And the genius
of employing these film technicians, you know, it's like sort
of taking Hollywood to war. Almost. It was one particular
studio in the west of London, Sheperdon Studios, but it
was like taking Hollywood to war. What are these what
(15:16):
do these guys do for real. They produce artificial sets,
artificial props that look good on camera but are completely unreal.
And so they managed to produce literally, as I say,
hundreds of tanks, hundreds of landing craft. They produced aircraft
that they put on put on sort of dummy runways
and dummy airfields. They produced an entire apparently a fuel
(15:40):
depot near Dover, the port of Dover on the coast
in the southeast of England, that again, on the ground,
looked like a stage set, but from above it was
just made of canvas and scaffolding and old, old piping
from from from the bomb the remains of bombed London.
From the ground it looked completely unconvincing, but from the
(16:01):
air it looked good. And then what they did very
cleverly they adopted a policy of what was called, I
think rather nicely discrete display. So they would allow German
reconnaissance aircraft very occasionally to fly over the southeast of
England to take their photographs to record these apparently vast
(16:21):
numbers of tanks and landing craft and aircraft gathering. There
was no point doing all this if the Germans didn't
know about it, so they had to in the southwest
of England, where the real army was preparing for the
real invasion. There was total camouflage, no aircraft, no reconnaissance
aircraft were allowed over But this lovely concept of discrete
(16:42):
display meant that every now and again they would, oh,
dear goodness me, there's a reconnaissance aircraft flying overhead. Well
never mind, you know, let them take their photographs. And
then the photo interpreters back in occupied Europe or in Germany,
you know, looked at these photographs and said, my goodness,
but only we got one of the most famous Allied
commanders in charge. They've got hundreds of landing craft, thousands
(17:04):
of tanks, a whole air armada to back them up.
And so this became very, very convincing, and it does
seem to have going back to your point, it does
seem to have completely impressed or convinced the German intelligence
community that yes, there was this very large army gathering.
(17:27):
The target was going to be the part of Calais,
which is the stretch of French coasts from about sort
of Dunkirk de Boulogne. If your listeners know that the
geography of that part of France northwest France, there was
an army. There are a large army, the fifteenth Army
will gather there, the German fifteenth Army gathering that they
(17:49):
dug in they produced. They built these huge concrete defenses,
giant gun emplacements along the tops of the cliffs. Some
of them are so enormous you can still see them today.
You can see the remains of them if any of
your listeners traveled in that part of France. There is
still a lot of evidence of this huge section of
(18:10):
the Atlantic Wall. And so this fifteenth Army spent the
whole of June and until about mid July twiddling its fingers,
waiting for the invasion to come. Because this wasn't just
to deceive the Germans before the invasion where it's going
(18:30):
to become after the invasion had taken place. They wanted
to pretend that the Normandy landings were just a faint
were just a sort of side show, and the real McCoy,
the real show was still to come two hundred miles
away in the part of la So the German commanders yes,
fell for it and kept this fifteenth Army. There were
(18:52):
two panzer divisions. There was different numbers at different times,
but at least ten other infantry divisions twiddling their fingers
in the part of Kla while some of the most
decisive battles of the Second World War were being fought
two hundred miles away in Normandy. Goodness knows what difference
it would have made. It's one of the big what
ifs of history. Had Hitler and the High Command just said, right,
(19:17):
you know, this is the invasion in Normandy. Get every
man we can into the Normandy battlefields. You know, it
could have made a very, very big difference. We'll never know.
But the point was that this Operation Fortitude, this deception campaign,
was completely successful in keeping the fifteenth Army the huge
(19:39):
number of troops in the part of Kla. And I
should just add that there was another deception. They invented
an army, the British fourth Army, in Scotland, in the
north of Britain, that was apparently going to invade Normandy.
And again all sorts of leaks, apparent leaks were let
out that that this army was practicing in Scotland landing
(20:03):
and they were using ski troops and they were going
to land in Norway and try and strike at the
Swedish iron ore fields that were supplying Germany with a
lot of its iron ore, and again that was successful
and in keeping about one hundred and eighty thousand men
in the Norwegian garrison Idle. You know, these men, both
(20:24):
in the part of la and in Norway could have
been very effectively used in Normandy or even on the
Eastern Front and might well have turned the Tider battle.
But these deception campaigns were absolutely crucial, and they stayed
these troops stayed in the wrong place while well the
(20:44):
really decisive battles were being fought and won in and
around Normandy.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Absolutely Tinlor, I know we're getting closer on Ty, but
I do have one last question for you. During the
writing and the research of this book, what surprised you?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I think a lot of things surprised me. It was
a lovely book to research and write because a lot
of the stories that these deception people came up with,
these deceibits came up with, were more like fiction than fact.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Doug.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You know, they were so inventive in some of their stories.
You know, at one point they found a lookerike, a
man who looked like General Montgomery, who they sent to Gibraltar,
knowing that the Germans had a based in Spain. Gibraltar's
a little outpost really within Spain. Spain was neutral, but
was overall fairly sympathetic to the Germans, and they knew
(21:39):
that there was a unit not far from Gibraltar airfield
with very powerful telescopes and they would pick up who
came and went from the airfield at Gibraltar. And they
sent this look alike to pretend to be Montgomery just
before D Day to inspect troops at Gibraltar, and again
(22:00):
to deceive the Germans that well, how you know, obviously
they're not planning the armies that Montgomery leading are planning
some other attack, maybe in North Africa or in the
south of France or something completely different. So a lot
of the ideas they came up with were wonderfully inventive
and creative and as I say, more like fiction than fact.
(22:24):
So that really did fascinate me a lot. You know,
would we have people with that sort of creativity, you know,
an influence at the top of the command structures today?
I don't know that we would. But anyway, it was
very impressive what they came up with. Not only this
army in Southeast England, this army in Scotland. But you know,
(22:45):
all sorts of other tricks that were constantly being played
on the Germans, all of which added up to a
sort of very major deception campaign through the war. But
the other thing I've already mentioned, I was absolutely fascinated
to see how the film industry, the British film industry,
was called upon to create the props, if you like,
to give the sort of the visual evidence, or the pretend,
(23:10):
the phony visual evidence of the existence of these military units.
And how simple these these modeled tanks and aircraft and
so on were, but how effective they were. All they
had to do was look good from twenty thousand feet
from an aircraft twenty thousand feet photographing them below. And
(23:33):
they did. They did look just the part, and so
on so many levels. This was a very creative period
in a very bitter, intense and hard fought war.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Absolutely well, Taylor, thank you so much for coming on
and spinning a few minutes with us today, And to
our listeners, please go out and get a copy of
Taylor's book, The Army That Never Worked Us. George S.
Patton and the Deception of Operational Fortitude You're not going
to be disappointed. This was just a tip of the
iceberg of what's in there in that book, and I
(24:09):
think you're really going to enjoy it. You pick it
up wherever you purchase your books. And again, Taylor, thank
you so much for spending just a few minutes with
us today to talk about your latest book.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Thank you very much, Doc, thanks for having me well.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ernie
Power World War Two Museum Podcast.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Thank you for listening, and we will see you soon.
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