October 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Paul Antico joins us today to talk about Rosen Method Bodywork. Think of it as the art of melting away the tension a gentle, listening touch and the power of your own breath. Rosen isn’t about deep tissue or quick fix; it’s about unlocking where your body has been hiding stress, emotion, and old patterns, and giving you the freedom to feel lighter, more connected, and more alive. Paul breaks down how it works, and I share my own session experience. akasajourneys.com/rosen-method-bodywork/
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Fifty Shades of Bullshit is broadcast live Thursdays at 4PM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Fifty Shades of Bullshit TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Fifty Shades of Bullshit Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:22):
to those show hosts. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey everyone, and welcome to Fifty Shades of Bullshit. I'm
your host, Christine Lalan and this is the podcast where
we uncover the truth about online dating. Now let's begin.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey everyone, I'm Christine and this is fifty Shades of Bullshit.
Welcome back. We have another week of fun stuff to
talk about. Today is episode.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Two oh two, and.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's about touch that heals, the Rosin method bodywork. So
on today's episode, we are going to bring back Paul
Antiko and we're going to dive into the world of
Rosin method. Rosen method body work. Think of it as
the art of melting away the tension. You didn't even
realize that you've been carrying using nothing more than a
(01:22):
gentle listening touch and the power of your own breath.
Rosin Rosen I could be saying it wrong. Rosen isn't
about deep tissue or quick fixes. It's about unlocky where
your body has been hiding stress, emotion, and old patterns
and giving you the freedom to actually feel lighter, more connected,
and more alive.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
So Paul is going to come.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
And talk about how to break it down, why it's
so powerful, and I will share my own experiences from
my session yesterday with Paul. So let's bring on Paul
Antigo and welcome him back to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Hey Paul, Hey Christine, good to see you again.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Good to see you a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
No see, I think it's been about twenty four hours.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
Ah, well it is.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's a full last day, a full whole day since
I've seen you.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
So thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yesterday we did a session for is it Rosen or
rosin Rosen?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yeah, Rosen method bodywork?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
All right, Rosen method. So tell us in your words, Paul,
what Rosen method body work is. And then I pulled
up I did some research myself and well we'll start
with that.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
It Rosen is a really challenging thing to describe because
it's it's subtle and it's powerful, and I guess it's
you're you're on a massage table and it's not a
massage at all. There's no there's nothing like regimented about it,
(03:00):
like we're going to start at your toes and work
up to your head. It's it's nothing like that. And
it's a very gentle, listening touch and it allows you know,
the person to experience themselves through the touch. One of
the most powerful things about this work is that when
(03:22):
you're on the table there you have no demands. And
how often are you in a place where you have
no demands on you? You don't have to meditate, you don't
have to do this.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
You have to do you know, very seldom.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You're just.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
So that alone is powerful enough. And then you know,
you have the touch that is tuned and listening touch,
so where it's not trying to manipulate. And so it's
like in places that we have tension, you know, whereas
and we find some of those places and we might
(03:58):
apply a little you know, gentle pressure. We're meeting the
muscle tension that's there. We're not trying to like blast
through it or push through it or anything allowing the
person to really feel themselves. And people are not often
used to the slowness or the gentleness of its surprising
how powerful it can be, you know, just in that environment.
(04:24):
And the nature of the touch is also it's very connecting,
and so you tend to feel more held, you know,
and seen just from the touch's itself. And you know,
through that also people tend to feel a little more safe,
(04:45):
which in turn will allow things to show up more,
you know, because as we you know, getting into polyvehicle
theory a lot a little bit, which was you know,
very prominent right now and for a while, safety is
the cure is how they would say it. And so
when we feel safe, which is something we haven't felt
(05:08):
a lot of often, it allows things to finally come
out right. How can we hold on to that safety?
How can we build that sense of safety within ourselves
in a felt sense way? Okay, so you know that's
kind of again you can get slightly different descriptions from
a different rosan factory, but it's in that same ball.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, I did some research and I pulled up the origins,
like the history of it and the theory and philosophy.
So let's talk about that. I found that Rosen method
was developed by Marion Rosen. She was born in nineteen
fourteen and died in twenty twelve. She lived ninety eight years.
(05:58):
That's wild therapist with a deep interest in the mind
body connection. So rosenk Rosen's work was influenced by an
earlier somatic awareness tradition, the work of let me see
if I can say these names right, Elsa Gindler and
(06:18):
Lucy Hayer. It's like a combination of breath, touch and awareness.
Then I found that in roughly nineteen eighty three, the
Rosen Institute was formed for standard training certificate, certification, ethics
and to maintain the quality in the module of it.
(06:39):
And that there are currently centers and training schools all
over in many countries. So do you go to an
actual training facility, are you taught by the Rosen Institute
or how are you getting your training?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah? So let me just mention one thing about their
Marion Rosen's early work in Germany. In the early days,
she along with Louise Hayes, was working with clients the
same clients that Freud and Young and you know the
psychoanalysts of the day. We're also working with the people
(07:18):
that got the body work, and the psychoanalysis got better faster, wow,
better connection. It's like adding that body piece. And you know,
there was a lot going on at that time with
Wilhelm Reich and he was a big somatic, one of
the early earliest somatic people. I love that anyway, And
(07:41):
getting back to your question. Yeah, so there's the Marion
when she came to the United States, settled in Berkeley,
and so the Berkeley School is one of the main
schools for Rosen and that's where I go for all
my training, supervisions, everything that you know I need to
do because rose it's worldwide, but it's it's a it's sporadic,
(08:03):
so it's like in pockets in Los Angeles, unfortunately, is
where I'm based. There's there's no there's one person that
comes from Santa Barbara once a month, there's another. I'm
still an intern. I've got thirty three hours left to go.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
How many hours do you have to have?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Three hundred and fifty so quite a few.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Wow, that sounds like more than even the regular physical
therapy or massage therapy or any of that. That sounds
like a whole lot more than even just your average
you know, pay fifty to one hundred fifty bucks to
go get a massage.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah I don't I don't actually know the massage requirements
in terms of hours. But yeah, Rosen is one of
those things that you can't learn in your head. You know,
you have to learn it by doing, and they by
transmission almost you know, you're learning from an established practitioner
under their supervisions. So that's why it takes the whole
(09:09):
thing takes three and a half four years. It's not
a quick process, but it's very appropriate, you know, and
it speaks to the depth of the work itself and
how you can't just go off in a few weekends
like nowadays and get some certificate in something right. And
so it's part of what drew me to Rosen was,
(09:30):
you know, that it was such a deep process. And
also I tend to be a little on the intellectual side,
and so this was something that I could not use
my intellect to learn, and so I thought, okay, this
is good. Like putting myself in the environment to learn
in a different way. That very very incredible.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
I bet I.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Want to tell the listeners a little bit more about
this method. So the RAS Rosen method is often framed
as a psycho sematic bodywork or sematic awareness practice.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
Am I right on that?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah? Yeah, that was fair.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So it says that the body holds emotional and psychological experiences,
especially like the unprocessed and unconscious ones. So the chronic
muscle tension, especially around the diaphragm or your core, seems
as like protecting against direct feeling of emotions. Is that
kind of like something that you're learning through.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yes, So think about the diaphragm and breathing is really
an interesting and cool thing. The breath is really important,
you know, the thing that we look at in Rosen
noticing shifts in the breath or how big your breath is.
And think about this, If you take a big breath,
you're actually taking up more space mm. And so it's
(10:54):
it's one of the direct ways to think about do
I feel like I can take more space in the world?
I value myself enough? And am I, you know, fully
as present as I can be? Or am I trying
to hide a power or shrink down somehow? And that's
an example of the chronic muscular tension in process. You know,
(11:15):
we would tend to pull ourselves in and we don't
necessarily even notice it because it's just our standard way
of holding ourselves. So we can become bigger people through
bigger breaths. And then what muscles are holding that diaphragm
from taking bigger breaths, muscles are holding us in a
tighter position. So these are things that we look at
(11:37):
and work with In rosen.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, I also saw that when people hold back feelings
like pain, green finger fear, that your muscular tension restricts
you're breathing and can become habitual and reducing the capacity
for introspective awareness. Also, that diaphragm, like what you were
talking about, is also like an important like gateway to
(12:02):
your breathing and it's key to what your muscles are doing.
And so when you're helders or your breath is shallow,
or you hold it and restrict it, it affects your
nervous system.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
It affects you.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Know, how you emotionally are accessible to your emotions, and
you know, it really kind of like shifts that it
to keep like when you're not relaxed, it's just like constricting.
And when you do the ROSA method are you helping
with that kind of like relaxation of the muscle.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
Is that what's happening.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Yeah, I mean, that's what's happening. It's not like a
direct thing. Okay, we push on here and then that relaxes.
It's not like that. We're again we're bringing attention through
touch without trying to fix this, the listening touch so
that someone can be more aware of their own holding
and it's through their own awareness of the restriction and
(13:03):
this can be very unconscious this whole process. They can
learn to what if it's okay to let go a
little bit more, and thoughts and memories can and you know,
images can come up during sessions, which is part of
you know, how we've been holding things around that And
Rosen has a talking component to it as well, where
(13:27):
we're working with people verbally and that is not a
verbally trying to fix or explain, but it's a more
let's be present with what's going on with you. You know,
that must have been very hard when you felt that
things along those lines that are keeping people where they
are in their healing.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So there are a couple of more points with their
theory philosophy of it.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Tell me what you think of this.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
There is the therapeutic relationship they say is central that
the practitioner provides. And this is what you were just
talking about listening touch, which is a non demanding, non
manipulative while using verbal reflection or descript or description to
support the client and noticing the shifts and the tension
(14:15):
or softening or breathing changes. And then it also talks
about the intention of not to fix or manipulate in
a mechanical way, but rather to awaken the client's internal awareness,
which was I think important for me yesterday, which support
releases an unconscious tension and allows integration of the body,
(14:37):
emotion and awareness. Is that kind of like where your
clients tend to feel or shift when you do this.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good description. And another example is
I had someone who was saying that they feel like
whenever they start to get close to an emotion that
they close it down. And so, you know, I was
responding with along the lines of, you know, it's okay
(15:08):
to stay at the door, so to speak, of the
emotions you don't have to get through, you know, and
you don't have to open the door. There's a reason
why it's so protected, so to speak. You know why
that door is so challenging. It's totally okay to stay
at the door, and that's fine. And so that was
kind of giving a permission to be where they are.
(15:30):
And right after that they just started crying because that
allowed the opening to be present. So, you know, that
doesn't happen all the time. As far as that kind
of a you know, quick response, shall we say, but
you're because you're doing this over time? Usually it's usually not.
It's not just in one session. We have to think
(15:53):
about how long did our issues get? You know, how
long were we ad environments that these issues go put
into us? And we have to kind of honor that.
It's like, we can't just whip through it. I wish
we could leave.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Me right just talking about it once and then it's
all gone. Boy do I wish that. I think that.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
It also says that over a time, the idea is
that the client gains a greater access to feeling, sensations, emotions.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
It's like that they before that.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
It becomes a chronic tension or pain to lead to
more of a self regulation, resilience and flexibility in their life.
I think that yesterday for me I didn't really know
what to expect. I didn't know how to think or feel.
I just thought, well, I'm just gonna, you know, go
with the flow and see what happens.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
And I felt safe.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I felt relaxed more so than normal, even though it
wasn't really like a massage massage, Like sometimes I get
a full body massage and I leave and I think,
did that really even do anything saying I'm still really tight,
really sore, and really whatever.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
But yesterday I felt like it wasn't about that.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
It didn't feel like my muscles were anticipating, you know.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
A massage.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I felt also that there were certain things that kind
of popped into my head when you were laying your
hand on certain muscles on my back or on my
neck or on my head, you know, through here. And
I think a couple of those key words for me
yesterday was I was trying to remember what I said.
(17:32):
I think it was at one point it kind of
came to me that I always felt not adequate enough,
not good enough, Maybe that I was holding on to
thinking that I never could really get there, you know,
with pleasing people or whatever, you know what I mean,
And I realized that was just ridiculous that I was
(17:54):
holding onto something that was silly to hang on too.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
It's not really silly. We're kind of, you know, challenging.
But it's good to notice those things. And the other
thing to notice about them is are we judging ourselves
for them? The judgment is what makes everything very sticky,
you know, That's what you know, if we could let
go of the judgment, say okay, why I don't feel adequate,
(18:20):
and then we go and I'm bad for not feeling adequate. Rather,
I don't feel adequate and how did that get there?
And I'm not a bad person. I just feel that way.
You know. Most likely we got it from childhood from
people telling us that, right, and that's just a belief
(18:41):
that we've adopted.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I do have to say though, when that was happening,
I do have to say, it wasn't as if I
was feeling it like it was real. It was kind
of like, oh, here's the thing that pops up with
that muscle tension. But I could recognize it for what
it was and let it go.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Oh good, yeah, yeah, yeah. It gives you the opportunity
to feel what's there in whatever capacity. It's like sometimes
we have gotten through certain things, but we don't know
it really until we've like tested a little bit, so
to speak. And that's what gives you a deeper felt
sense that you have or haven't wherever you are gotten
(19:29):
through something, right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I was looking at what some of the claims were
on the benefits and evidence, you know, from people talking
about their experiences with Rosen method, and I found that
some practitioners were the reporting that such benefits were increased
(19:52):
body awareness, introception, introception. I don't know that word, which
is I guess a few ing internal body, your internal
body is feeling.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Interoception is knowing like where your body is, or that's appropriateception.
There's yeah, interception, appropriate reception, neurrosception. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
It also says that especially tension based pain, you feel
more relief of that, like a chronic pain relief or
a reduced muscular tension. Also improved improved deep breath like
it freers your diaphragm movement.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Emotional release.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, like what you were saying with set client that
just kind of had the water.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Works emotional release and then also the diaphragm release as well,
like who you want the diaphragm relaxed.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
You know.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
The diaphragm is kind of the link between the upper
and the lower body. Yeah, yeah, I can see that connector.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Plus, when you're not deep breath, it's like you're not
getting enough oxygen in your body to really go throughout
your entire body for what it needs. It's like when
you're breathing shallow, you're not getting as much oxygen, and
so your muscles may tend to tighten up a little
bit more.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
I don't think that.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I don't know if they're tightening up because of lack
of oxygen, but it's kind of like one of those
things that goes hand in hand up a bit.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I think when I deep when I do shallow breaths,
I feel like I'm more you know, tight, more tense more,
you know, I feel like you can't breathe and everything
just feels claustrophobic and tight.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I realize that I feel that quite a bit. So
I think learning that deep breath is more helpful to
your own you know.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Yeah. Yeah. The breath is a key element in so
many disciplines as well, you know, yoga and pontiama, so
many things that work with the breath.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
It also says that they have Practitioners have reported that
people have a better self regulation, reduce anxiety, reduce stress relief,
improved resilience, and for some even an improved posture and
movement and kind of vitality.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Yeah, you're tuning in more to yourself. You're becoming more
authentic in a felt sense way. That creates a little
more ease and a little less tension all around. And
you know, as you're willing to take up more space
in the world in your life, it shows and so
(22:40):
that's part of that whole process.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So can you tell us what some of the strengths
that it can can you know, give you well, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
More than what we've already talked about, because you've kind
of covered a lot of good things.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
So light.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I mean, it makes you feel more in yourself, It
makes you feel more yourself, more authentic, I was just
saying over time, you know, and you also learn to
feel your body more, which makes you feel more present
in the world, you know, because often we're walking around
like just our heads. Ask a lot of people what
(23:22):
are they feeling in their body? I don't know, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah, because they're ignoring their body and only.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Staying in their head.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Yeah, so you become more present in a very felt
sense way through this kind of work.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I can see where it can you go hand in.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Hand with breath work, like it's.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, I kind of like the idea of doing
breath work and doing this kind of you know, in
the same kind of vein that maybe one can help
the other.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Yes, And it's also really good as an integration pro
you know, we've talked about psychedelics in the past, and
as an integration practice, it's very powerful, very useful.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
So tell us, Paul, I would like to kind of
go through and kind of what happens in a session,
like so people can kind of get an idea and
then they go, oh, that sounds simple, it sounds easy.
It's not something to be afraid to go do. I
want to talk about the intake, Like what happens when
(24:33):
the person first.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Comes in, Well, they would fill out an intake form
first on my website, for example, so just give me
some basic general information. But when they come in, you know,
I typically would ask people is there anything that I
should know about physically? Like someone might say, you know,
(24:54):
I sprain my ank collar or arm or something, or
they might have some chronic you know, so thing that
I should be aware of, like don't touch here or
something like that, right extra tender spots. And then I
also ask them what brought them here and how did
they hear about rosen and so give me just some
(25:15):
general sense of what they're looking for and what they're
here for. And so from there then I will describe
if they don't already know the process, which is, you know,
we have the massage table with rosen. We don't use
like a massage table you'd use the face creatle that
you put your face down into with rosin, we don't
(25:36):
use that. And we primarily don't use your heads turned
because we like to see your face. We want to
see a bit of potential reactions. You know, people can
have physiological reactions that maybe they're not as aware of,
but that give us some information, you know, for example,
like fluttering eyelids. You know that there's something going on
emotionally there and they may or may not be as
(25:58):
aware of it, but it lets us know that maybe
we're on the right track with what we're doing. One
of those clues and anyway, so the person would be
lying on the table, we start face down.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
And they're fully clothed or lightly clothed or something like
that as well.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Right, So that was I was just going to say,
they're completely undressed except for their underwear. Okay, because a
lot of rosen is really they talk about skin on
skin contact as far as the hands and touching the
body because you know, it's a really solid connection the
(26:39):
value of the skin on skin contact, and people don't
have to get undressed if they're not comfortable. So basically
what I say is, get as undressed as you're comfortable,
leave your d or on, and then you know, it
depends on how comfortable someone is as to how undressed
they want to get. So it's totally up to them
(26:59):
as far is that, because you know, we're not doing
any you know, sexually oriented or private part touching at
all in any way, so there's nothing none of that.
You know, it really has a lot to do with
how comfortable someone is where and if someone says, well
I'm not comfortable, you don't touch my hips or or
(27:21):
my lower back or wherever. Really that's fine. We don't
have to. You know, there's no like rules about the rule.
The rule is what makes you feel the most comfortable
and the most safe. That's the rule. And so you know,
the recommended way is like I say, you know, without
(27:45):
clothes except for your underwear. But again that's not you know,
a requirement. So from there then we would you know,
to get start on the stomach and then that's where
you know, I put my hands on and I you know,
maybe a little bit of talking and you know, at
first we're just getting to know each other. If it's
a new person, you know, I'm getting to know them,
(28:07):
they're getting to know me. It takes a while to
settle on the table. I mean that can take ten,
fifteen minutes or longer, depending and that's fine. That's part
of the process, you know. It's like allowing that space.
We don't often allow ourselves that time to be comfortable
in a situation or a new situation. And a big
part of it is how the whole session is held,
(28:30):
is part of a person getting to learn that it's
okay to be slower, it's okay to just be present
without any demands, you know, and just experience that.
Speaker 5 (28:42):
That's what I liked about it yesterday.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, it was great. So from there, at a
certain point, you know, roughly halfway through, could be shorter
or longer, depending on what's going on. We will turn
the person over onto their back, and then we tend
to work a little bit more on the head in
that position, or you know, we can slide a hand underneath,
(29:07):
you know, and still continue with parts of the back,
maybe a little bit on the stomach. So it just
depends as far as you know. That's that part of
the session. And then from there, you know, kind of
winds up toward the end and give a little bit
of notice. You know, it's like we're gonna end in
(29:28):
a few minutes here, or we only have a few
minutes left. You give people some morning rather than just
all of a sudden, okay, I'm gone, Yeah, be a
little abrupt. So we're you know, thoughtful about that. And
that's you know, what a session can look like. And
you're you're covered with a sheet, you know, as far
(29:49):
as you know, when you're on the table on your
back or you or something, and we pull down the
sheet of when we're working on your back because we
want that skin on skin. For women, we have a
drape for the breasts and so we can build out
a sheet, but there's still the drape there, so you know,
(30:09):
no one's uncovered in that way, right, And that's pretty
much what a session, you know, could look like, aside
from you know, the little talking back and forth. Someone
could be emoting. Some people have a lot of emotions
come up, can there can be movement. There can be
you know, involuntary or not, you know, like twitches or movement.
(30:32):
It's all welcome. You know, we like to say that
all parts of you are welcome in a session. You know,
whatever's going on, whatever feelings, emotions, thoughts, it's all welcome,
you know, really creating that safe container to just be
with the person as they are.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
It's funny because yesterday I noticed that when something would
pop up, I would kind of chuckle chuckle because I'm like, huh,
that's still there. I didn't know that was still there
kind of thing. And every time I chuckled, you were like, oh, so,
what are you feeling now? And I was like, well,
(31:10):
this came up, and I'm surprised, you know, I was
really surprised with some of the things that would still
that surfaced yesterday because I thought I'd work through them,
and you know, I guess, I guess I don't know
when something like what I think of right now is
what you'd said earlier. How long did it take to
go through all the trauma? How long have you been
(31:32):
holding on to it? It's like, how can you expect
one thing to do a fix? Whereas you know, I've
been doing breath work, shadow work, inner child work, talk therapy,
somatic therapy, I've done anger management, I've done everything. I've
tried everything. Now I'm trying you know, the rose In method,
(31:54):
and I find it funny that some of these things
still popped up. And I just I thought it was funny.
I thought it was interesting, and I thought, huh, it's
just another reminder that I still have work to do
and it's okay. And sometimes we hold onto things longer
than we think, because sometimes I go, what is still
(32:15):
wrong with me? But I thought it was funny because
I didn't expect it, and you were, you know, you
work through that with me, and it was it was
really fun.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
It was interesting. I liked it. It was good for me.
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Yeah, it's a wonderful practice. I've had some powerful emotional
experiences on the table myself, you know, because part of
the training is you have to receive a lot, and
you wouldn't have to smarm to receive a lot because
I love it anyway, so I want to do more
and so but it is the only uh somatic modality
(32:51):
that I've experienced where I was able to actually have
some real powerful emotional releases and get in touch with
some things. Just allows that space, you know, the nurturing
acceptance nature of it is really quite striking. And I
(33:11):
think a lot of not every modality connects physiologically somatically
in that way. And so that's where I think it's
very valuable because and so much of the stuff we
do is very heavy, you know, Like I'd like to
say it was all in your head, I'd be enlightened,
you know, twenty times by now, But yo, right, I'm
(33:37):
not there.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Yeah, And you know, I think that, you know, I
think a lot about how much work it takes to
get through things, and sometimes it is not all done
in the exact same way that people think or they
think that, you know, talk therapy is the only way
(34:00):
and you'll finally eventually get over it. I think that
our body holds a lot more than our minds sometimes
and sometimes our minds will let things go, like I
thought I'd let it go, but then I found that
it's still the body's still holding.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
On to it.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Yeah, and the body, you know, there's a title of
Bessel vander Kulch's famous book, The Body keeps the scar
and it is. It really is in the body. That's
where that's where it all lives.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
You know. Yeah, it doesn't. I didn't realize how much. So,
which is kind of funny, because I thought that all
of our interesting I just had some some epiphanies when
I think about it, I think about you know, all
the memories, all the feelings, all the thoughts, it's all
(34:50):
in your head. It's all here, it's in your brain.
You know, time is not linear, so it just it
comes and goes, ins and outs. It is what it is, right,
So that's why I thought that.
Speaker 5 (35:01):
It was just in your mind.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
But then what the epiphany for me was is that
a lot of the abuse that I've been through, or
the trauma in my life has been physical, not just mental,
and so it only makes sense that our bodies hold
onto things. And yeah, so this is amazing that there's
(35:24):
something that people can turn to to try to release that.
I mean, massage is one thing. Yeah, and massage is
the muscle. Maybe relaxes the muscle for a minute and
a half, but it's about releasing what is trapped in there.
And I think your mind and your muscles kind of
your whole body just works together, your one energetic thing.
(35:46):
So how can we think that only the mind is
going to be held or only the body needs to
be held. It all kind of has to be healing together, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
And one thing that's really a good way to think
about the body stuff is that, you know, there's a
when we're really young, they call that pre verbal, and
pre verbal basically means before you learn how to talk, right, right,
So before you learn how to talk, you didn't know anything.
You didn't have any culture, you didn't have anything. But
(36:16):
all you have are you're feeling and your surroundings. And
so if things are happening to you that are not
let's say, things that humans need to grow, you know, appropriately,
it gets twisted up into feelings. And a simple example
(36:37):
would be let's say you're hungry and you're not being fed,
you're being neglected. Let's say you know, I'm talking over time,
not just like one time or something, but and then
you know, you would start crying and then it would
be like terror because all you're knowing is you're hungry
and you're not getting fed. And that's like painful terror
(37:00):
of death actually, right from that perspective from someone that
doesn't know anything, has no language, doesn't know what's going
on at all, you know, like we know as adults,
that's just terror of death.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Right because you don't know if you'll ever get food
or attention or yeah, you don't know if you're alone
or abandoned. Yeah, the unknown is is can be exceedingly overwhelming, especially.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
In a child. Yeah, it's very powerful. Yeah, and it
feels like you can feel that right now if I'm
tuning in. So that is an example. And so when
we get that young, we start to you know, if
it happens repeatedly, we shut down. That's when we start
to you know, lock ourselves in. And then we start
(37:47):
to think that, well, there's something wrong with us. Why
are we not getting all this? And it's a false belief,
you know, it's it's based on our surroundings. And so
when you talk about the body, it's like you know,
rose or you know, other modalities that can get into
that to that pre verbal area, which is that's where
a lot of things can be stuck. We don't have
(38:09):
the line, but we didn't have a cognitive memory of
an event. It's just the feeling.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Our brains don't quite come online until around four years oldish,
so we don't have that piece, right. So it's a
lot of the felt sense stuff and that's what's you know,
can be in the body and we don't have a
story to go with that particular feeling, right.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Yeah, that's interesting because our brains, dude, still capture thoughts, feelings,
and emotions when we can't verbalize, Like you said, as children,
I hear kids like cry and need something, and I
hear the parent. This is in my building alone, I
hear the parents freaking out, yelling at the kids freak
(38:54):
you know, and it.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
Is I think about that, and I think, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
You know, a parent is not only adding on to
that trauma by by not stopping to try to understand
what the problem is, to try.
Speaker 5 (39:08):
To you know, deduct what could be the issue and
figure it out.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Instead, a lot of people tend to just emotionally get
distraught and get they're irritated with the crying, and they
they're frustrated with not knowing, so they lash out and
all that does is cause additional trauma to the child
who can't verbalize, and then they feel even more deeper
(39:33):
unknown process unprocessed, unknown feelings far far.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah, it's like the Charlie Brown bubble, you know when
you talk about the parents or wah wah wah, wah wah,
you know, and they're just feeling the energy, the energy
of the anger. It doesn't even have to be directed
at the child, but if there's anger between the parents,
it's themselves. That energy is like, you know, scary. A
(40:06):
little kid is totally just feeling that, you know, and
they don't know what it is or have any words
for it, but they're feeling it and that's you know,
and they're typically you know, not getting soothed, they're not
getting held, they're not you know. That's how we learn
to regulate over time through coregulation with our caregivers, and
(40:27):
a lot of times that's just not present, no, no, sad.
That's kind of how that all some of that gets
in there, you know, gets into your body. It's not
just something happened when I was for you know, which
could still happen, but you know, adds to it. But
there's a lot, a lot of ways. So working with
(40:47):
the body basically is important. It's not just it's never
just in your head. And usually what's in your head
is some kind of reflection or justification based on what
your body's feeling.
Speaker 5 (41:00):
Feeling exactly. Yeah, the mind and body go to get well,
your body can't do shit without your mind.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Well either way, well you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
I mean, think about it with your mind not being
able to uh send the signals to tell your body
what to do and not to do, and then your
body sending back signals that you're that you're subconscious is
then just gathering up and making it like this thing
you know, it's not. I do think that it would
(41:32):
be amazing if people started to realize that it's just
more than just what's in your head, that it is
also your body, and that there are ways to work
with that, there are ways to try to heal and
I don't know, teach you how to self regulate maybe,
or how to handle things better when you're not Like,
(41:54):
if you think about it, fear, what does your body
do when your mind thinks fear? It tenses, it tightens,
it it's on alert.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
It's like, wow, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
It's like your body and mind you're speaking to each
other constantly. And so when that happens and you're not
healing your body, your body's still going into your head
saying I still have all these fears, I still have
all these triggers, I still have all this.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Trauma, and your head's going, hey, fool.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
We talked about this, right, So I think it's interesting
that people don't put those two things together more often
and think that if I'm going to go on a healing.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
Journey, I should heal my body and my mind.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Kind Of yeah, I think it's easy to underestimate the
depth of the stuff that's held in the body as
opposed to you know, the mind. And that example, like
when we're afraid, we're like you're saying, we tense up.
And if that's chronic because there's always been a lot
of fear in our household growing up, and that's been
(42:57):
our environment, you know, we can become hyper vigilant, which
is like we're always on the alert. Is there something
going to happen? You know, someone gonna yell or whatever
is going whatever happened to us in some way, and
that hypervigilance, you know, affects our whole lives and we
don't often even know that that's what we're doing. And
so how can we get in touch with that and
(43:19):
learn to relax it, learn to let the body say
it's safe. Now. You know, someone's not going to just
walk up and you you know, like they might have
had as a child if that was your environment.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Interesting, there's a lot.
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Of things that can create that, including you know, neglect,
and yeah, just yelling and just not being seen is
extremely debilitating for it can't be well.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
You know what's funny is that I find that there
were things in life that if something happened, I would flinch.
If a man walked by or was in my vicinity
and he raised in quickly, I would flinch, or I
would cower, or I would be afraid, or There'd.
Speaker 5 (44:06):
Be lots of little things like that throughout life.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
And I realized that I was holding on to a
lot more things than I thought, physically than mentally, because
I thought that I had gotten past that. So I
was I think kind of hardening myself, like saying, be stronger,
don't show that don't you know.
Speaker 5 (44:26):
So I was hiding it.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
I was holding onto it and hiding it, and my
mind was letting it go and thinking, oh, this is
invaluable or important to me anymore.
Speaker 5 (44:35):
I'm getting past it. But then my body was still
holding on to it.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
And then I was hardening myself and protecting myself, which
only made it worse and it didn't allow for, you know,
further healing or further growth. And I think that your
obsession I had yesterday really kind of took a moment
for me to really think that, ah, maybe I've hardened
(44:59):
a little too hard. Maybe I need to release and
relax and let things, you know. Release it from my body,
not just my mind, but my body. My mind released
it in my my mind released it, and my body
hung onto it. So now I'm my mind and my
self assurance is trying to tell it you can let
that go. And you made that, you know, more aware
(45:21):
for me yesterday.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
Yeah, And that's a key a lot of key things
you said there, and that is one big piece of
rosin is to make people aware of their process so
that they can then, as we like to say, soften.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Well, it's a good example like the flinching, that shows
us how embedded you know, those things are. And so
we want to be kind to ourselves about that because
we're kind of unlearning that vigilance and fear about always
being ready for something.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Oh my god, I think I've I Uh, that's a
challenge that I'm working on now. Is that not trying
trying to not always be holding on to.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
What's going to happen next to me?
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Just breathe, take that deep diaphragm breath and really just
open up and relax. Well, we've run out of time.
You have been such an amazing guest again today. Thank
you for talking to us about the Rosen Method.
Speaker 5 (46:28):
I love it very much.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It's exciting and I and I want to come back
and do it again because I know that it takes
more than one session.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
So I'm down.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
So just though everybody knows, I know, the last two
weeks you've probably all come and thought, huh, how come
they're not answering any of my questions? How come they're
not you know, chatting with us like normal. Well, unfortunately
the last couple of weeks we have had to pre
record it. But I am back live for sure, next week,
so please come back next week we are live. Janice
(46:59):
is coming and we are going to do some bicy episode.
We're going to talk about some sex, sex and more
crazy stuff, so come back and join us.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
Thank you for.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Coming again today, Paul, I really appreciate you, and thank
you for my my session yesterday.
Speaker 5 (47:17):
It was amazing.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
For those of you who come back every week, please
come back again next week, same time, same place, and
until then, let's just keep this shit real. If you
enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends, like and
follow us on Instagram at fifty Shades of Underscore Bullshit
and Facebook at fifty Shades of Bullshit. Thanks so much
(47:42):
for listening and we really hope to see you again
next week
The following show contains adult content. It's not our intent
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if you are a child under the age of eighteen
or get offended easily, this next show may not be
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shows are solely the choice of your show hosts and
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(00:22):
to those show hosts. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey everyone, and welcome to Fifty Shades of Bullshit. I'm
your host, Christine Lalan and this is the podcast where
we uncover the truth about online dating. Now let's begin.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Hey everyone, I'm Christine and this is fifty Shades of Bullshit.
Welcome back. We have another week of fun stuff to
talk about. Today is episode.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Two oh two, and.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
It's about touch that heals, the Rosin method bodywork. So
on today's episode, we are going to bring back Paul
Antiko and we're going to dive into the world of
Rosin method. Rosen method body work. Think of it as
the art of melting away the tension. You didn't even
realize that you've been carrying using nothing more than a
(01:22):
gentle listening touch and the power of your own breath.
Rosin Rosen I could be saying it wrong. Rosen isn't
about deep tissue or quick fixes. It's about unlocky where
your body has been hiding stress, emotion, and old patterns
and giving you the freedom to actually feel lighter, more connected,
and more alive.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
So Paul is going to come.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
And talk about how to break it down, why it's
so powerful, and I will share my own experiences from
my session yesterday with Paul. So let's bring on Paul
Antigo and welcome him back to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Hey Paul, Hey Christine, good to see you again.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Good to see you a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
No see, I think it's been about twenty four hours.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
Ah, well it is.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's a full last day, a full whole day since
I've seen you.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
So thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yesterday we did a session for is it Rosen or
rosin Rosen?
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yeah, Rosen method bodywork?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
All right, Rosen method. So tell us in your words, Paul,
what Rosen method body work is. And then I pulled
up I did some research myself and well we'll start
with that.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
It Rosen is a really challenging thing to describe because
it's it's subtle and it's powerful, and I guess it's
you're you're on a massage table and it's not a
massage at all. There's no there's nothing like regimented about it,
(03:00):
like we're going to start at your toes and work
up to your head. It's it's nothing like that. And
it's a very gentle, listening touch and it allows you know,
the person to experience themselves through the touch. One of
the most powerful things about this work is that when
(03:22):
you're on the table there you have no demands. And
how often are you in a place where you have
no demands on you? You don't have to meditate, you don't
have to do this.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
You have to do you know, very seldom.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You're just.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
So that alone is powerful enough. And then you know,
you have the touch that is tuned and listening touch,
so where it's not trying to manipulate. And so it's
like in places that we have tension, you know, whereas
and we find some of those places and we might
(03:58):
apply a little you know, gentle pressure. We're meeting the
muscle tension that's there. We're not trying to like blast
through it or push through it or anything allowing the
person to really feel themselves. And people are not often
used to the slowness or the gentleness of its surprising
how powerful it can be, you know, just in that environment.
(04:24):
And the nature of the touch is also it's very connecting,
and so you tend to feel more held, you know,
and seen just from the touch's itself. And you know,
through that also people tend to feel a little more safe,
(04:45):
which in turn will allow things to show up more,
you know, because as we you know, getting into polyvehicle
theory a lot a little bit, which was you know,
very prominent right now and for a while, safety is
the cure is how they would say it. And so
when we feel safe, which is something we haven't felt
(05:08):
a lot of often, it allows things to finally come
out right. How can we hold on to that safety?
How can we build that sense of safety within ourselves
in a felt sense way? Okay, so you know that's
kind of again you can get slightly different descriptions from
a different rosan factory, but it's in that same ball.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, I did some research and I pulled up the origins,
like the history of it and the theory and philosophy.
So let's talk about that. I found that Rosen method
was developed by Marion Rosen. She was born in nineteen
fourteen and died in twenty twelve. She lived ninety eight years.
(05:58):
That's wild therapist with a deep interest in the mind
body connection. So rosenk Rosen's work was influenced by an
earlier somatic awareness tradition, the work of let me see
if I can say these names right, Elsa Gindler and
(06:18):
Lucy Hayer. It's like a combination of breath, touch and awareness.
Then I found that in roughly nineteen eighty three, the
Rosen Institute was formed for standard training certificate, certification, ethics
and to maintain the quality in the module of it.
(06:39):
And that there are currently centers and training schools all
over in many countries. So do you go to an
actual training facility, are you taught by the Rosen Institute
or how are you getting your training?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah? So let me just mention one thing about their
Marion Rosen's early work in Germany. In the early days,
she along with Louise Hayes, was working with clients the
same clients that Freud and Young and you know the
psychoanalysts of the day. We're also working with the people
(07:18):
that got the body work, and the psychoanalysis got better faster, wow,
better connection. It's like adding that body piece. And you know,
there was a lot going on at that time with
Wilhelm Reich and he was a big somatic, one of
the early earliest somatic people. I love that anyway, And
(07:41):
getting back to your question. Yeah, so there's the Marion
when she came to the United States, settled in Berkeley,
and so the Berkeley School is one of the main
schools for Rosen and that's where I go for all
my training, supervisions, everything that you know I need to
do because rose it's worldwide, but it's it's a it's sporadic,
(08:03):
so it's like in pockets in Los Angeles, unfortunately, is
where I'm based. There's there's no there's one person that
comes from Santa Barbara once a month, there's another. I'm
still an intern. I've got thirty three hours left to go.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
How many hours do you have to have?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Three hundred and fifty so quite a few.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Wow, that sounds like more than even the regular physical
therapy or massage therapy or any of that. That sounds
like a whole lot more than even just your average
you know, pay fifty to one hundred fifty bucks to
go get a massage.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah I don't I don't actually know the massage requirements
in terms of hours. But yeah, Rosen is one of
those things that you can't learn in your head. You know,
you have to learn it by doing, and they by
transmission almost you know, you're learning from an established practitioner
under their supervisions. So that's why it takes the whole
(09:09):
thing takes three and a half four years. It's not
a quick process, but it's very appropriate, you know, and
it speaks to the depth of the work itself and
how you can't just go off in a few weekends
like nowadays and get some certificate in something right. And
so it's part of what drew me to Rosen was,
(09:30):
you know, that it was such a deep process. And
also I tend to be a little on the intellectual side,
and so this was something that I could not use
my intellect to learn, and so I thought, okay, this
is good. Like putting myself in the environment to learn
in a different way. That very very incredible.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
I bet I.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Want to tell the listeners a little bit more about
this method. So the RAS Rosen method is often framed
as a psycho sematic bodywork or sematic awareness practice.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
Am I right on that?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah? Yeah, that was fair.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So it says that the body holds emotional and psychological experiences,
especially like the unprocessed and unconscious ones. So the chronic
muscle tension, especially around the diaphragm or your core, seems
as like protecting against direct feeling of emotions. Is that
kind of like something that you're learning through.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
Yes, So think about the diaphragm and breathing is really
an interesting and cool thing. The breath is really important,
you know, the thing that we look at in Rosen
noticing shifts in the breath or how big your breath is.
And think about this, If you take a big breath,
you're actually taking up more space mm. And so it's
(10:54):
it's one of the direct ways to think about do
I feel like I can take more space in the world?
I value myself enough? And am I, you know, fully
as present as I can be? Or am I trying
to hide a power or shrink down somehow? And that's
an example of the chronic muscular tension in process. You know,
(11:15):
we would tend to pull ourselves in and we don't
necessarily even notice it because it's just our standard way
of holding ourselves. So we can become bigger people through
bigger breaths. And then what muscles are holding that diaphragm
from taking bigger breaths, muscles are holding us in a
tighter position. So these are things that we look at
(11:37):
and work with In rosen.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, I also saw that when people hold back feelings
like pain, green finger fear, that your muscular tension restricts
you're breathing and can become habitual and reducing the capacity
for introspective awareness. Also, that diaphragm, like what you were
talking about, is also like an important like gateway to
(12:02):
your breathing and it's key to what your muscles are doing.
And so when you're helders or your breath is shallow,
or you hold it and restrict it, it affects your
nervous system.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
It affects you.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Know, how you emotionally are accessible to your emotions, and
you know, it really kind of like shifts that it
to keep like when you're not relaxed, it's just like constricting.
And when you do the ROSA method are you helping
with that kind of like relaxation of the muscle.
Speaker 5 (12:40):
Is that what's happening.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Yeah, I mean, that's what's happening. It's not like a
direct thing. Okay, we push on here and then that relaxes.
It's not like that. We're again we're bringing attention through
touch without trying to fix this, the listening touch so
that someone can be more aware of their own holding
and it's through their own awareness of the restriction and
(13:03):
this can be very unconscious this whole process. They can
learn to what if it's okay to let go a
little bit more, and thoughts and memories can and you know,
images can come up during sessions, which is part of
you know, how we've been holding things around that And
Rosen has a talking component to it as well, where
(13:27):
we're working with people verbally and that is not a
verbally trying to fix or explain, but it's a more
let's be present with what's going on with you. You know,
that must have been very hard when you felt that
things along those lines that are keeping people where they
are in their healing.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
So there are a couple of more points with their
theory philosophy of it.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
Tell me what you think of this.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
There is the therapeutic relationship they say is central that
the practitioner provides. And this is what you were just
talking about listening touch, which is a non demanding, non
manipulative while using verbal reflection or descript or description to
support the client and noticing the shifts and the tension
(14:15):
or softening or breathing changes. And then it also talks
about the intention of not to fix or manipulate in
a mechanical way, but rather to awaken the client's internal awareness,
which was I think important for me yesterday, which support
releases an unconscious tension and allows integration of the body,
(14:37):
emotion and awareness. Is that kind of like where your
clients tend to feel or shift when you do this.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good description. And another example is
I had someone who was saying that they feel like
whenever they start to get close to an emotion that
they close it down. And so, you know, I was
responding with along the lines of, you know, it's okay
(15:08):
to stay at the door, so to speak, of the
emotions you don't have to get through, you know, and
you don't have to open the door. There's a reason
why it's so protected, so to speak. You know why
that door is so challenging. It's totally okay to stay
at the door, and that's fine. And so that was
kind of giving a permission to be where they are.
(15:30):
And right after that they just started crying because that
allowed the opening to be present. So, you know, that
doesn't happen all the time. As far as that kind
of a you know, quick response, shall we say, but
you're because you're doing this over time? Usually it's usually not.
It's not just in one session. We have to think
(15:53):
about how long did our issues get? You know, how
long were we ad environments that these issues go put
into us? And we have to kind of honor that.
It's like, we can't just whip through it. I wish
we could leave.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Me right just talking about it once and then it's
all gone. Boy do I wish that. I think that.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
It also says that over a time, the idea is
that the client gains a greater access to feeling, sensations, emotions.
Speaker 5 (16:22):
It's like that they before that.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
It becomes a chronic tension or pain to lead to
more of a self regulation, resilience and flexibility in their life.
I think that yesterday for me I didn't really know
what to expect. I didn't know how to think or feel.
I just thought, well, I'm just gonna, you know, go
with the flow and see what happens.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
And I felt safe.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I felt relaxed more so than normal, even though it
wasn't really like a massage massage, Like sometimes I get
a full body massage and I leave and I think,
did that really even do anything saying I'm still really tight,
really sore, and really whatever.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
But yesterday I felt like it wasn't about that.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
It didn't feel like my muscles were anticipating, you know.
Speaker 5 (17:10):
A massage.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I felt also that there were certain things that kind
of popped into my head when you were laying your
hand on certain muscles on my back or on my
neck or on my head, you know, through here. And
I think a couple of those key words for me
yesterday was I was trying to remember what I said.
(17:32):
I think it was at one point it kind of
came to me that I always felt not adequate enough,
not good enough, Maybe that I was holding on to
thinking that I never could really get there, you know,
with pleasing people or whatever, you know what I mean,
And I realized that was just ridiculous that I was
(17:54):
holding onto something that was silly to hang on too.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
It's not really silly. We're kind of, you know, challenging.
But it's good to notice those things. And the other
thing to notice about them is are we judging ourselves
for them? The judgment is what makes everything very sticky,
you know, That's what you know, if we could let
go of the judgment, say okay, why I don't feel adequate,
(18:20):
and then we go and I'm bad for not feeling adequate. Rather,
I don't feel adequate and how did that get there?
And I'm not a bad person. I just feel that way.
You know. Most likely we got it from childhood from
people telling us that, right, and that's just a belief
(18:41):
that we've adopted.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
I do have to say though, when that was happening,
I do have to say, it wasn't as if I
was feeling it like it was real. It was kind
of like, oh, here's the thing that pops up with
that muscle tension. But I could recognize it for what
it was and let it go.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Oh good, yeah, yeah, yeah. It gives you the opportunity
to feel what's there in whatever capacity. It's like sometimes
we have gotten through certain things, but we don't know
it really until we've like tested a little bit, so
to speak. And that's what gives you a deeper felt
sense that you have or haven't wherever you are gotten
(19:29):
through something, right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I was looking at what some of the claims were
on the benefits and evidence, you know, from people talking
about their experiences with Rosen method, and I found that
some practitioners were the reporting that such benefits were increased
(19:52):
body awareness, introception, introception. I don't know that word, which
is I guess a few ing internal body, your internal
body is feeling.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Interoception is knowing like where your body is, or that's appropriateception.
There's yeah, interception, appropriate reception, neurrosception. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
It also says that especially tension based pain, you feel
more relief of that, like a chronic pain relief or
a reduced muscular tension. Also improved improved deep breath like
it freers your diaphragm movement.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Emotional release.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, like what you were saying with set client that
just kind of had the water.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Works emotional release and then also the diaphragm release as well,
like who you want the diaphragm relaxed.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
You know.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
The diaphragm is kind of the link between the upper
and the lower body. Yeah, yeah, I can see that connector.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Plus, when you're not deep breath, it's like you're not
getting enough oxygen in your body to really go throughout
your entire body for what it needs. It's like when
you're breathing shallow, you're not getting as much oxygen, and
so your muscles may tend to tighten up a little
bit more.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
I don't think that.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I don't know if they're tightening up because of lack
of oxygen, but it's kind of like one of those
things that goes hand in hand up a bit.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I think when I deep when I do shallow breaths,
I feel like I'm more you know, tight, more tense more,
you know, I feel like you can't breathe and everything
just feels claustrophobic and tight.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I realize that I feel that quite a bit. So
I think learning that deep breath is more helpful to
your own you know.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Yeah. Yeah. The breath is a key element in so
many disciplines as well, you know, yoga and pontiama, so
many things that work with the breath.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
It also says that they have Practitioners have reported that
people have a better self regulation, reduce anxiety, reduce stress relief,
improved resilience, and for some even an improved posture and
movement and kind of vitality.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Yeah, you're tuning in more to yourself. You're becoming more
authentic in a felt sense way. That creates a little
more ease and a little less tension all around. And
you know, as you're willing to take up more space
in the world in your life, it shows and so
(22:40):
that's part of that whole process.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So can you tell us what some of the strengths
that it can can you know, give you well, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
More than what we've already talked about, because you've kind
of covered a lot of good things.
Speaker 5 (23:00):
So light.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I mean, it makes you feel more in yourself, It
makes you feel more yourself, more authentic, I was just
saying over time, you know, and you also learn to
feel your body more, which makes you feel more present
in the world, you know, because often we're walking around
like just our heads. Ask a lot of people what
(23:22):
are they feeling in their body? I don't know, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Yeah, because they're ignoring their body and only.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Staying in their head.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Yeah, so you become more present in a very felt
sense way through this kind of work.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
I can see where it can you go hand in.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Hand with breath work, like it's.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Yeah, yeah, I kind of like the idea of doing
breath work and doing this kind of you know, in
the same kind of vein that maybe one can help
the other.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
Yes, And it's also really good as an integration pro
you know, we've talked about psychedelics in the past, and
as an integration practice, it's very powerful, very useful.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
So tell us, Paul, I would like to kind of
go through and kind of what happens in a session,
like so people can kind of get an idea and
then they go, oh, that sounds simple, it sounds easy.
It's not something to be afraid to go do. I
want to talk about the intake, Like what happens when
(24:33):
the person first.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Comes in, Well, they would fill out an intake form
first on my website, for example, so just give me
some basic general information. But when they come in, you know,
I typically would ask people is there anything that I
should know about physically? Like someone might say, you know,
(24:54):
I sprain my ank collar or arm or something, or
they might have some chronic you know, so thing that
I should be aware of, like don't touch here or
something like that, right extra tender spots. And then I
also ask them what brought them here and how did
they hear about rosen and so give me just some
(25:15):
general sense of what they're looking for and what they're
here for. And so from there then I will describe
if they don't already know the process, which is, you know,
we have the massage table with rosen. We don't use
like a massage table you'd use the face creatle that
you put your face down into with rosin, we don't
(25:36):
use that. And we primarily don't use your heads turned
because we like to see your face. We want to
see a bit of potential reactions. You know, people can
have physiological reactions that maybe they're not as aware of,
but that give us some information, you know, for example,
like fluttering eyelids. You know that there's something going on
emotionally there and they may or may not be as
(25:58):
aware of it, but it lets us know that maybe
we're on the right track with what we're doing. One
of those clues and anyway, so the person would be
lying on the table, we start face down.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
And they're fully clothed or lightly clothed or something like
that as well.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Right, So that was I was just going to say,
they're completely undressed except for their underwear. Okay, because a
lot of rosen is really they talk about skin on
skin contact as far as the hands and touching the
body because you know, it's a really solid connection the
(26:39):
value of the skin on skin contact, and people don't
have to get undressed if they're not comfortable. So basically
what I say is, get as undressed as you're comfortable,
leave your d or on, and then you know, it
depends on how comfortable someone is as to how undressed
they want to get. So it's totally up to them
(26:59):
as far is that, because you know, we're not doing
any you know, sexually oriented or private part touching at
all in any way, so there's nothing none of that.
You know, it really has a lot to do with
how comfortable someone is where and if someone says, well
I'm not comfortable, you don't touch my hips or or
(27:21):
my lower back or wherever. Really that's fine. We don't
have to. You know, there's no like rules about the rule.
The rule is what makes you feel the most comfortable
and the most safe. That's the rule. And so you know,
the recommended way is like I say, you know, without
(27:45):
clothes except for your underwear. But again that's not you know,
a requirement. So from there then we would you know,
to get start on the stomach and then that's where
you know, I put my hands on and I you know,
maybe a little bit of talking and you know, at
first we're just getting to know each other. If it's
a new person, you know, I'm getting to know them,
(28:07):
they're getting to know me. It takes a while to
settle on the table. I mean that can take ten,
fifteen minutes or longer, depending and that's fine. That's part
of the process, you know. It's like allowing that space.
We don't often allow ourselves that time to be comfortable
in a situation or a new situation. And a big
part of it is how the whole session is held,
(28:30):
is part of a person getting to learn that it's
okay to be slower, it's okay to just be present
without any demands, you know, and just experience that.
Speaker 5 (28:42):
That's what I liked about it yesterday.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, it was great. So from there, at a
certain point, you know, roughly halfway through, could be shorter
or longer, depending on what's going on. We will turn
the person over onto their back, and then we tend
to work a little bit more on the head in
that position, or you know, we can slide a hand underneath,
(29:07):
you know, and still continue with parts of the back,
maybe a little bit on the stomach. So it just
depends as far as you know. That's that part of
the session. And then from there, you know, kind of
winds up toward the end and give a little bit
of notice. You know, it's like we're gonna end in
(29:28):
a few minutes here, or we only have a few
minutes left. You give people some morning rather than just
all of a sudden, okay, I'm gone, Yeah, be a
little abrupt. So we're you know, thoughtful about that. And
that's you know, what a session can look like. And
you're you're covered with a sheet, you know, as far
(29:49):
as you know, when you're on the table on your
back or you or something, and we pull down the
sheet of when we're working on your back because we
want that skin on skin. For women, we have a
drape for the breasts and so we can build out
a sheet, but there's still the drape there, so you know,
(30:09):
no one's uncovered in that way, right, And that's pretty
much what a session, you know, could look like, aside
from you know, the little talking back and forth. Someone
could be emoting. Some people have a lot of emotions
come up, can there can be movement. There can be
you know, involuntary or not, you know, like twitches or movement.
(30:32):
It's all welcome. You know, we like to say that
all parts of you are welcome in a session. You know,
whatever's going on, whatever feelings, emotions, thoughts, it's all welcome,
you know, really creating that safe container to just be
with the person as they are.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
It's funny because yesterday I noticed that when something would
pop up, I would kind of chuckle chuckle because I'm like, huh,
that's still there. I didn't know that was still there
kind of thing. And every time I chuckled, you were like, oh, so,
what are you feeling now? And I was like, well,
(31:10):
this came up, and I'm surprised, you know, I was
really surprised with some of the things that would still
that surfaced yesterday because I thought I'd work through them,
and you know, I guess, I guess I don't know
when something like what I think of right now is
what you'd said earlier. How long did it take to
go through all the trauma? How long have you been
(31:32):
holding on to it? It's like, how can you expect
one thing to do a fix? Whereas you know, I've
been doing breath work, shadow work, inner child work, talk therapy,
somatic therapy, I've done anger management, I've done everything. I've
tried everything. Now I'm trying you know, the rose In method,
(31:54):
and I find it funny that some of these things
still popped up. And I just I thought it was funny.
I thought it was interesting, and I thought, huh, it's
just another reminder that I still have work to do
and it's okay. And sometimes we hold onto things longer
than we think, because sometimes I go, what is still
(32:15):
wrong with me? But I thought it was funny because
I didn't expect it, and you were, you know, you
work through that with me, and it was it was
really fun.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
It was interesting. I liked it. It was good for me.
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (32:28):
Yeah, it's a wonderful practice. I've had some powerful emotional
experiences on the table myself, you know, because part of
the training is you have to receive a lot, and
you wouldn't have to smarm to receive a lot because
I love it anyway, so I want to do more
and so but it is the only uh somatic modality
(32:51):
that I've experienced where I was able to actually have
some real powerful emotional releases and get in touch with
some things. Just allows that space, you know, the nurturing
acceptance nature of it is really quite striking. And I
(33:11):
think a lot of not every modality connects physiologically somatically
in that way. And so that's where I think it's
very valuable because and so much of the stuff we
do is very heavy, you know, Like I'd like to
say it was all in your head, I'd be enlightened,
you know, twenty times by now, But yo, right, I'm
(33:37):
not there.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Yeah, And you know, I think that, you know, I
think a lot about how much work it takes to
get through things, and sometimes it is not all done
in the exact same way that people think or they
think that, you know, talk therapy is the only way
(34:00):
and you'll finally eventually get over it. I think that
our body holds a lot more than our minds sometimes
and sometimes our minds will let things go, like I
thought I'd let it go, but then I found that
it's still the body's still holding.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
On to it.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Yeah, and the body, you know, there's a title of
Bessel vander Kulch's famous book, The Body keeps the scar
and it is. It really is in the body. That's
where that's where it all lives.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
You know. Yeah, it doesn't. I didn't realize how much. So,
which is kind of funny, because I thought that all
of our interesting I just had some some epiphanies when
I think about it, I think about you know, all
the memories, all the feelings, all the thoughts, it's all
(34:50):
in your head. It's all here, it's in your brain.
You know, time is not linear, so it just it
comes and goes, ins and outs. It is what it is, right,
So that's why I thought that.
Speaker 5 (35:01):
It was just in your mind.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
But then what the epiphany for me was is that
a lot of the abuse that I've been through, or
the trauma in my life has been physical, not just mental,
and so it only makes sense that our bodies hold
onto things. And yeah, so this is amazing that there's
(35:24):
something that people can turn to to try to release that.
I mean, massage is one thing. Yeah, and massage is
the muscle. Maybe relaxes the muscle for a minute and
a half, but it's about releasing what is trapped in there.
And I think your mind and your muscles kind of
your whole body just works together, your one energetic thing.
(35:46):
So how can we think that only the mind is
going to be held or only the body needs to
be held. It all kind of has to be healing together, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
And one thing that's really a good way to think
about the body stuff is that, you know, there's a
when we're really young, they call that pre verbal, and
pre verbal basically means before you learn how to talk, right, right,
So before you learn how to talk, you didn't know anything.
You didn't have any culture, you didn't have anything. But
(36:16):
all you have are you're feeling and your surroundings. And
so if things are happening to you that are not
let's say, things that humans need to grow, you know, appropriately,
it gets twisted up into feelings. And a simple example
(36:37):
would be let's say you're hungry and you're not being fed,
you're being neglected. Let's say you know, I'm talking over time,
not just like one time or something, but and then
you know, you would start crying and then it would
be like terror because all you're knowing is you're hungry
and you're not getting fed. And that's like painful terror
(37:00):
of death actually, right from that perspective from someone that
doesn't know anything, has no language, doesn't know what's going
on at all, you know, like we know as adults,
that's just terror of death.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Right because you don't know if you'll ever get food
or attention or yeah, you don't know if you're alone
or abandoned. Yeah, the unknown is is can be exceedingly overwhelming, especially.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
In a child. Yeah, it's very powerful. Yeah, and it
feels like you can feel that right now if I'm
tuning in. So that is an example. And so when
we get that young, we start to you know, if
it happens repeatedly, we shut down. That's when we start
to you know, lock ourselves in. And then we start
(37:47):
to think that, well, there's something wrong with us. Why
are we not getting all this? And it's a false belief,
you know, it's it's based on our surroundings. And so
when you talk about the body, it's like you know,
rose or you know, other modalities that can get into
that to that pre verbal area, which is that's where
a lot of things can be stuck. We don't have
(38:09):
the line, but we didn't have a cognitive memory of
an event. It's just the feeling.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Our brains don't quite come online until around four years oldish,
so we don't have that piece, right. So it's a
lot of the felt sense stuff and that's what's you know,
can be in the body and we don't have a
story to go with that particular feeling, right.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Yeah, that's interesting because our brains, dude, still capture thoughts, feelings,
and emotions when we can't verbalize, Like you said, as children,
I hear kids like cry and need something, and I
hear the parent. This is in my building alone, I
hear the parents freaking out, yelling at the kids freak
(38:54):
you know, and it.
Speaker 5 (38:55):
Is I think about that, and I think, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
You know, a parent is not only adding on to
that trauma by by not stopping to try to understand
what the problem is, to try.
Speaker 5 (39:08):
To you know, deduct what could be the issue and
figure it out.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Instead, a lot of people tend to just emotionally get
distraught and get they're irritated with the crying, and they
they're frustrated with not knowing, so they lash out and
all that does is cause additional trauma to the child
who can't verbalize, and then they feel even more deeper
(39:33):
unknown process unprocessed, unknown feelings far far.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah, it's like the Charlie Brown bubble, you know when
you talk about the parents or wah wah wah, wah wah,
you know, and they're just feeling the energy, the energy
of the anger. It doesn't even have to be directed
at the child, but if there's anger between the parents,
it's themselves. That energy is like, you know, scary. A
(40:06):
little kid is totally just feeling that, you know, and
they don't know what it is or have any words
for it, but they're feeling it and that's you know,
and they're typically you know, not getting soothed, they're not
getting held, they're not you know. That's how we learn
to regulate over time through coregulation with our caregivers, and
(40:27):
a lot of times that's just not present, no, no, sad.
That's kind of how that all some of that gets
in there, you know, gets into your body. It's not
just something happened when I was for you know, which
could still happen, but you know, adds to it. But
there's a lot, a lot of ways. So working with
(40:47):
the body basically is important. It's not just it's never
just in your head. And usually what's in your head
is some kind of reflection or justification based on what
your body's feeling.
Speaker 5 (41:00):
Feeling exactly. Yeah, the mind and body go to get well,
your body can't do shit without your mind.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Well either way, well you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
I mean, think about it with your mind not being
able to uh send the signals to tell your body
what to do and not to do, and then your
body sending back signals that you're that you're subconscious is
then just gathering up and making it like this thing
you know, it's not. I do think that it would
(41:32):
be amazing if people started to realize that it's just
more than just what's in your head, that it is
also your body, and that there are ways to work
with that, there are ways to try to heal and
I don't know, teach you how to self regulate maybe,
or how to handle things better when you're not Like,
(41:54):
if you think about it, fear, what does your body
do when your mind thinks fear? It tenses, it tightens,
it it's on alert.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
It's like, wow, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
It's like your body and mind you're speaking to each
other constantly. And so when that happens and you're not
healing your body, your body's still going into your head
saying I still have all these fears, I still have
all these triggers, I still have all this.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Trauma, and your head's going, hey, fool.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
We talked about this, right, So I think it's interesting
that people don't put those two things together more often
and think that if I'm going to go on a healing.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
Journey, I should heal my body and my mind.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Kind Of yeah, I think it's easy to underestimate the
depth of the stuff that's held in the body as
opposed to you know, the mind. And that example, like
when we're afraid, we're like you're saying, we tense up.
And if that's chronic because there's always been a lot
of fear in our household growing up, and that's been
(42:57):
our environment, you know, we can become hyper vigilant, which
is like we're always on the alert. Is there something
going to happen? You know, someone gonna yell or whatever
is going whatever happened to us in some way, and
that hypervigilance, you know, affects our whole lives and we
don't often even know that that's what we're doing. And
so how can we get in touch with that and
(43:19):
learn to relax it, learn to let the body say
it's safe. Now. You know, someone's not going to just
walk up and you you know, like they might have
had as a child if that was your environment.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Interesting, there's a lot.
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Of things that can create that, including you know, neglect,
and yeah, just yelling and just not being seen is
extremely debilitating for it can't be well.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
You know what's funny is that I find that there
were things in life that if something happened, I would flinch.
If a man walked by or was in my vicinity
and he raised in quickly, I would flinch, or I
would cower, or I would be afraid, or There'd.
Speaker 5 (44:06):
Be lots of little things like that throughout life.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
And I realized that I was holding on to a
lot more things than I thought, physically than mentally, because
I thought that I had gotten past that. So I
was I think kind of hardening myself, like saying, be stronger,
don't show that don't you know.
Speaker 5 (44:26):
So I was hiding it.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
I was holding onto it and hiding it, and my
mind was letting it go and thinking, oh, this is
invaluable or important to me anymore.
Speaker 5 (44:35):
I'm getting past it. But then my body was still
holding on to it.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
And then I was hardening myself and protecting myself, which
only made it worse and it didn't allow for, you know,
further healing or further growth. And I think that your
obsession I had yesterday really kind of took a moment
for me to really think that, ah, maybe I've hardened
(44:59):
a little too hard. Maybe I need to release and
relax and let things, you know. Release it from my body,
not just my mind, but my body. My mind released
it in my my mind released it, and my body
hung onto it. So now I'm my mind and my
self assurance is trying to tell it you can let
that go. And you made that, you know, more aware
(45:21):
for me yesterday.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
Yeah, And that's a key a lot of key things
you said there, and that is one big piece of
rosin is to make people aware of their process so
that they can then, as we like to say, soften.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (45:38):
Well, it's a good example like the flinching, that shows
us how embedded you know, those things are. And so
we want to be kind to ourselves about that because
we're kind of unlearning that vigilance and fear about always
being ready for something.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Oh my god, I think I've I Uh, that's a
challenge that I'm working on now. Is that not trying
trying to not always be holding on to.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
What's going to happen next to me?
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Just breathe, take that deep diaphragm breath and really just
open up and relax. Well, we've run out of time.
You have been such an amazing guest again today. Thank
you for talking to us about the Rosen Method.
Speaker 5 (46:28):
I love it very much.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It's exciting and I and I want to come back
and do it again because I know that it takes
more than one session.
Speaker 5 (46:34):
So I'm down.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
So just though everybody knows, I know, the last two
weeks you've probably all come and thought, huh, how come
they're not answering any of my questions? How come they're
not you know, chatting with us like normal. Well, unfortunately
the last couple of weeks we have had to pre
record it. But I am back live for sure, next week,
so please come back next week we are live. Janice
(46:59):
is coming and we are going to do some bicy episode.
We're going to talk about some sex, sex and more
crazy stuff, so come back and join us.
Speaker 5 (47:10):
Thank you for.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
Coming again today, Paul, I really appreciate you, and thank
you for my my session yesterday.
Speaker 5 (47:17):
It was amazing.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
For those of you who come back every week, please
come back again next week, same time, same place, and
until then, let's just keep this shit real. If you
enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends, like and
follow us on Instagram at fifty Shades of Underscore Bullshit
and Facebook at fifty Shades of Bullshit. Thanks so much
(47:42):
for listening and we really hope to see you again
next week
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