Controversial Films of Faith with Chris Haskell: An Introduction to Wicker Man, The Exorcist

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Film Foundations, the collaborative
show between weirding Way Media and Someone's Favorite Productions. I
am your co host, Ryan Verrel from The Disconnected and
Someone's Favorite Productions.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
And I'm your other co host, Christashy from weirding Way Media.
But if I were to tell you the other places
I'm from, it would be much too vulgar a display
of power for this medium.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Well, speaking of that, on this show, we ask in
to answer four questions about a given topic that is
surrounding either an actor, director, franchise, or, like tonight's topic,
a micro genre. And our job is to entice you
to broaden your horizons on film, encourage you to travel
down film tangents and side roads, and perhaps go to
festivals in Norway that you may never have traveled down otherwise.

(00:53):
Because tonight we have on the show Chris Haskell from
They Live by Film and we are discussing controversial films
of faith. Chris, thanks for coming on with us.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thank you so much for the invitation and welcome pleasure
to meet you all.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Praise be, start to prostlytize, and baby, let's go. We're talking.
We're essentially painting a target on our fucking foreheads with
this episode and saying, hey, not only is it controversial
films of Faith, but you're probably gonna be offended by
some of the things we say because it may not
be what you agree with. So just give me getting

(01:29):
out in front of it now, is what I'm trying to.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Say, Sugar Winnings.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, we don't have to go that far. Our audience
isn't that young, like you know.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Uh so, Chris, before we get into like the crazy
divisional topics, can you tell everybody what they live by
film is and why they should be listening to it.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Thanks so much for asking. Yeah, we're kind of I
guess I've started to refer to us as a hobby podcast,
but I you know, we hope to find some some
like minded hobbyists that just basically love hearing about films.
We're just finishing up the filmography of Lars Benturur as
we talk, going through every single one of his movies.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
What a positive experience that must have been.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Oh, just so delightful. Man.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, did you watch Princess Bride too? At the end
of it when you were done, you're just like, I
need or or or did you did you continue to
just go further down into the hole, because man, that
is a hell of a topic to pick for it.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
It's funny you say that because when we're watching Antichrist,
I thought I was watching Princess Bride too. They're so similar, right.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
It was the genital cutting off that did it for me,
you know.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, Yeah, it's Cole.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
And they Bloody won the peanut and the Bundy won
the penis. Is what it would actually be ya?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh shit, at yeah, we're we're actually recording that episode. Well,
I guess this is probably coming out in like twenty
twenty six at this point, but we're recording that episode
a few days after we record this one, so it'll
be interesting to talk about that movie because wow, but no,
we did Goobrick before that. We try to Basically, the

(03:10):
whole theme of the episode is we all have different
tastes and we forced the other two co hosts to
watch something that we that we like and we discuss
whether or not it's good. And then the other half
of the podcast is kind of just talking to people
in the industry, so people in the boutique blu ray community,
which I'm a collector, so I just talking to other
collectors and people that make the stuff I collect. So

(03:32):
that's they live by film. Yeah, it's been I can't
believe it's been one hundred and like, I don't one
hundred and almost one hundred and fifty episodes in three
years and just it's fun. Yeah, we have a good time.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
It's pretty good. Fifty episodes a year is pretty good.
That's that's good. That's good output.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Man.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, that's consistency as they wis. I mean, hey, as
someone who spent the last decade doing podcasting, the one
thing I always say to anybody is fucking be consistent.
Just find a thing that works for you and post
it out as often as you say you're going to.
Seems to work out. And then you have three weekly
podcasts and you wonder, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah,

(04:11):
the consistency is just off the charts, really, And then
you find someone like Ryan who's has the same problem
of once we do something, we have to be consistent
and now it's a weekly show.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yeah, Ryan's working on his ninth full time podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, boy, ninth. I remember when mys was still single digits.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
God, that was like the podcast version of I remember
my first beer.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Kind of feels like it in a way at this point.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
God, yeah, they live by Film is one of my
favorite personal podcasts, and it's I love it so much.
It's it's on my podcast network. So I'm thrilled to
have you guys, and uh, I've had all three of
you on my channel multiple times. I have been on
your show multiple times. It's just a LoveFest. You guys
are amazing. But tonight we have a different kind of

(05:01):
love fest.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Fancas of love fest.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
I had that transition built in. We're obviously with what
we're talking about time, we're not talking about transitions, but
with controversial films of faith? What what brought on wanting
to discuss that?

Speaker 2 (05:18):
Okay, so fucking god damn it.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
I saw Last Temptation of Christ again, let's just say
like again a couple of years back. And I grew
up a Christian. I have a complicated relationship with faith.
I'm pretty far from from my roots. But I saw
it and I was like, what is the controversy here?
Like this is a movie that was so reviled when

(05:47):
it came out, and then you watch it and you're like, oh,
I don't think they actually saw it all the way
to the end, Like, like, if you actually see this
movie to the end, it's just sort of like a
beautiful story told by a guy who's a you know,
pronounced Catholic. So I started wondering if there's like other
movies that are controversial for reasons they shouldn't be. And

(06:09):
then also I wanted to just generally talk about controversial
films on faith, because you know, we, at least in
the America, we talk about the thin skin on Muslims,
but like, let's be real, Christians have some thin skin.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Man, Like what, wait a second, are you telling me
that a group of people who are in no way,
shape or form should feel marginalized constantly feel marginalized. Wait
a second, hold on.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Hold on, ye, mostly white people the.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Most marginalized group of people on the planet, clearly white men,
even I mean, can you imagine if they were all
based on the tenets of a white guy cheesus Christ.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Literally literally in this kid. So yeah, I thought it'd
be interesting discussion because you know, oh, like we tend
to say, I don't think, oh well, I don't tend
to look at film as like a religious thing, Like
when I go into it, I'm not looking to have
a religious experience. So I'm always interested when people take

(07:14):
a stab at either the faith of their childhood or
the complications of like growing up and not believing the
same way, or like we'll talk about some of the
ones we might talk about, like what about the faith
of a Jewish guy making the story in the Old
Testament who got a lot of shit for including texts
that weren't part of the Torah. So anyways, like there's
just some interesting stuff in here that I feel like

(07:35):
we're kind of in that generation as a country where
most of us are leaving the church. There's still a
few that are part of it, but like this is
all part of our childhood, Like we have this legacy
of like Christianity, and as we flee, like it's still
there in like the back of our mind. Right. So
I thought it might be kind of an interesting discussion,
and so far, based on the emails back and forth

(07:57):
the all Aguri, so that's the all you could do
with it.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, and to be fair, you gave us what I
would consider to be the best email ever, which is
you let us know exactly what we're doing. I'm going
to answer the questions We're like, oh my god, this
is like he's ahead of him, He's far out ahead.
He's further out ahead than even we are.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
At this point we can have a separate conversation about
my attention to detail. But yes, plus you've got some
of that.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the conversation is he has a
lot folks there you go, which is good, Which is
a good thing.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
One thing I kind of wanted to do before we
got into like the history behind the subject. The word
that sticks out the most from this topic idea. Obviously
there's two main words, but the first one we really
should have talked about controversial. So since we are going
through you what does controversial mean for most of these films.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
There have outside of you know, like the again, like
I don't mean to make this about like Muslims or
a sus Christian, but there's this perce that like, you know,
we have to be scared of the Muslims, right, but
nobody has received more death threats than people that have
offended the Catholic Church, right, like they will they get
their troops rallied. And there's some funny stories like Kevin

(09:13):
Smith protesting his own movie, right, Like, there's some there's
some funny stories in here, and there's some stories that
are not so funny where the church has really rallied
their people and and like really threatened folks. And so
I think for me, there's something I want to talk
about here in a minute, which is one of the
best names probably ever for a group called the leg
the Legion of Decency. We'll get into that in just

(09:36):
a second. But you know, there's like a formal effort
around telling the church community like is this a controversial
movie or not. So there's a group of people that
are deciding that, which while they stop now, but they
were deciding that up till the mid eighties, which I
just think is hilarious and kind of wild and speaks
to the control you know that they try to take
over their population. But yeah, I mean to me population.

(09:58):
To me, controversy is just like and it's a movie
that comes out where I'm assuming that the majority of
people that have something to say about it have not
seen it and are just simply responding to, like being
prompted to like hate a specific thing about it. Where one,
you know, usually dude has an opinion that is based

(10:19):
off of maybe he possibly him, not even seeing it,
and then there's just like this ground swallow of hatred
towards it.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
So wait, are you telling me, i's just theoretically here,
twenty sixteen's Ghostbusters, a movie with a female led cast.
You're telling me that it's it's not a bad movie
because it's led by women. Wait a second, here, hold on,
it's a bad movie because it's criminally unfunny and spends

(10:47):
way too much time doing a lot of hand waving
with I guess what we might call improv, But improv
tends to be funny, and that movie is not that.
To your point about controversy, that kind of controversy is horseshit, Like,
that's not the kind of controversy we're talking about here.
That is in a lot of ways. I don't want

(11:10):
to say fake controversy, but it does kind of feel concocted,
because I kind of still believe that Sony knew it
was gonna be a bad movie and tried to find
any way for people to rally behind it. Even if
that is like, oh, you know, it's men versus women.
It's like, that's not a thing, guys, Yeah, exactly, But
that's not the kind of controversy we're talking about. I

(11:31):
just want to like clarify because like you've kind of
alluded to, like we're talking about things where like filmmakers
are getting death threats stuff like that, because Yeah, because
the Catholic Church doesn't have a sense of humor is
what it's really. They don't know how to laugh about themselves, like.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Okay, not known for their improbabilities.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
No, No, Spotlight hell of a comedy though, Yeah, truly,
Like it's it's really up there with like Caddy Shack
at Annie Hall in terms of contemporary comedy classics.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
Fucking Spotlight.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, I mean that's the thing, Like when a movie
like Spotlight came out, it wasn't as controversial as The
Last Temptation of Christ was, like, and it should have
been because it's actually talking about something that is a
real problem, and instead we want to get bogged down
in fictional stories about fictional people that may or may
not have existed, being told a certain way by a

(12:29):
certain director.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
So how does Film Foundations feel about tangents? Are you
pro or anti tangents?

Speaker 1 (12:35):
This is a show that survives on tangents.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
So I got into my my parents don't listen to
this show, so I got into a big debate with
them because they really my mom was raised Catholic and
she wanted my son to go to a Catholic school.
And I was like, why would we even know, Like
we're not even talking about this, Like why are we
even like why is this even a conversation? Like no,
And she was like why And I was like, because

(12:59):
they publicly stated that five percent of the Catholic church
rapes boys and like they're okay with it, and they're
okay with that, Like they're not saying that five percent
of those those men get fired, they like move them
around and like they're still there, like no, Like I'm sorry,
Like there's no chance then my son is going to
a Catholic school.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
There's a reasonable percentage of rat shit in every Snickers bar. Guys,
come on same, We're operating on the same kind of
logic here with human lives, no less, right, five percent?
I mean, I think with the Boy Scouts of America
it's even higher, and that's even less talked about. And
on top of everything else, the Boy Scouts integrates the

(13:38):
religious part into it, because most religious organizations read that
as church's. Synagogues mosques have some sort of Boy Scout
organization associated with them. I know mine was. I wasn't
part of that percentage, thank fucking god. But I do
know people that were. And to your point, like, if
I had a kid, I would not let them be

(13:59):
in the Boy Scouts. No fucking way, Like it's too risky, right, Yeah,
fuck no, I don't know what other people are up to.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
Yeah, so anyways, where are we talking about Catholics? Yeah,
so there's there's a Catholics are bad at improv. The
priests are bad at improv. I'm sure members of the
Catholic Church are good at it, but priests are generally
batted improv not funny. But yeah, no, I think I

(14:27):
think I'm good with that, bitch. I mean, I just
think there's an interesting conversation for me around reacting to
something like even take a dumb example. I saw Barbie finally,
Like I didn't see it in theater because I had
kind of low interest in seeing it. I finally saw
it on a plane, and I was like, what.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
A white man's statement? What a white man? I didn't
want to see it in theaters, so I watched it
on an airplane.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Oh sorry, I travel.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
I'm kidding.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
I'm kidding just the way you said it, it was like
I had no interest in you know, like, fuck, it
was hilarious.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Serve a meal from my private stuff on my private
was like no, no, no wow no no no, no
no no.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
But I rememb remember he lives in downtown Austin.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, Zaz laugh over here, Jesus Christ and then I
and then the guy I used as my foot rest
had to move out of the way so I could
eat my dinner on top of him as a table.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
No less. I remember watching that movie being like where
the hell is the controversy? Like this is a movie
about like girls can be whatever they want to be,
Like this is fine, Like what so I'm just assuming
that nobody that was pissed at that movie saw it,
which that sucks, right because you know, like there's kind

(15:42):
of like an endemic here, like this thing that that
keeps happening, and so anyways, that's what I hope we
kind of tap into if if we get going on this,
Like it's just this idea that like stuff is controversial
probably for no reason, and like you know, if you
get to the root of something or the intent of something,
usually there's a reason why even something as crazy as Yorderrofski,

(16:02):
which I don't think we're going to get into tonight,
but we can. But even if something as crazy as him,
like he's a sincere dude who's like wrestling with Catholicism
and his stuff is not meant to be controversial. He's
just trying to put shit out there and like get
conversation going, right, So anyways, that's.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Like externalizing the internal conversation. He's happy with himself. I
mean that's I mean, you're Paul Schrader's entire body of
work pretty much that I mean, right? Is it not
like it really is? Like he's pretty much having an
external conversation about grappling with his own faith. So yeah,
I hope that, if anything, we just offend as many

(16:42):
people as possible with this episode by continuing to be ourselves,
which is not anything that's ever going to change. So
if we offend, you know that we're not doing it intentionally.
This is just the way that we are. I'm just
getting out in front of it.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
I poured a double maybe two and a half and
it's empty, So I'm feeling I wouldn't say I'm feeling tipsy,
but I'm feeling loose and relaxed and ready to talk,
so I'm hoping well.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
And the other thing we probably should lay out it's
not just Catholics that there are gonna be other pains
that you talked about tonight, Ryan, There's plenty of films
that have been made for this because in reality, one
of the reasons why this subgenre is going to hit
home for a lot of people is it's fucking relatable.
Like a lot of us were raised in some form

(17:28):
of spirituality, and based on the ages of people that
are gonna be listening to this, you were either raised
in a super religious house or your parents were and
they trickled some of that down to you a little bit,
or you have some sort of tangential relation to that,
and based on that, you're gonna understand why some of
these are controversial, even though on the surface they may

(17:49):
not seem controversial at all. And so we're gonna discuss
some of that. We're gonna go into that, Chris, you
want to share any history on this subgenre of choice,
anything that stuck out to you that you want to share,
any trivia.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
The most interesting thing, as I dug into this, because
this is not a genre of like jolly or something
right where there's sort of like tomes written on this
sort of subgenre or something right, like this is a
this is like my opinion on you know, movies I've
seen where I was like, this is not as controversial
as it should be, and like, you know, my intent

(18:24):
to bring nuance back into film discussion or just discussion
in general. And so the most interesting thing I could
come up with was this Legion of Decency, which was
something started from the Catholic Church in nineteen thirty three
and they first started publishing ratings in nineteen thirty six.
It ran into the eighties and they put a rating

(18:44):
on sixteen thousand movies over the course of their life,
and it was basically three ratings up until the seventies.
It was AB or C C meaning like condemned, and
A meaning it was okay for Christian Catholics, and B
meaning it was like you know, kind of okay the
right in.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
The line it's all right only for people that are
baptized and condemned.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Right the unbaptized as we call them.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
It comes up in confession, but you can watch it.
The interesting thing as I was digging through This is
nineteen thirty six, the first year they started putting this out,
and then for like four years following, there were a
shocking number of exploitation movies that dealt with prostitution. Like
there was a lot of films that I haven't heard of.
So it kind of made me want to go on
like a tangent of just like seeing what was coming

(19:35):
out in nineteen thirty six around like an exploitation movie
around prostitution, because I hadn't heard of any of the movies,
but they were basically there was some you know, like
Pervy Dude, probably just like one of us that was
like in all these theaters that happened to be Catholic,
there was like no, no, no, no, Condemned, and there's
just like going to watch more pornography and I was like, oh, Condemned.

(19:57):
There's like five penises in this movie, like Condemned, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
It's gonna stay for the whole run of the movie. Too.
Really got what a shame this is?

Speaker 3 (20:06):
I know. So there was a whole job in the
Catholic church of just watching like, you know, really super
awesome movies and being like no, no, no, no, no, no,
A good Catholic family shouldn't watch this, so they disbanded.
In the eighties, they were called something else. They had
like a Catholic Motion Picture Associations. They had like a
different name, and they changed it from the B and

(20:30):
the C went away, and it was either A or O.
So basically it became just like every discourse, it became like,
you know, bifurcated, right, it was either like one or
the other, and oh meant you shouldn't watch it. A
meant it was okay, and what did e I mean?
And then oh again at the end, I mean, this

(20:50):
is just.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
So fucking juvenile show.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
I was waiting to even throw back out though that
it was alright and oh no, yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
Oh god, no, you know, but I like, I think
the legacy of that sort of lives on, right, Like
I remember being in high school liking Dogma, being like
identifying as a Christian liking Dogma and feeling guilty about it,
and like as a forty one year old now I'm like, wow,
like that movie's just great, Like it's interesting, like bringing

(21:21):
alanis more set and his God like that was so offensive.
But then like looking back at it now, you know,
it's just like no, that was a super interesting way
to portray this thing that we never has never really
been tightly defined in that way. So anyways, I there's
just there was no nuance at that discussion when I
was sixteen, and I wish there would have been, because
that movie's awesome. I liked it, and I felt guilty

(21:41):
about it for like ten years until finally I was like,
wait a minute, I don't need to feel guilty about this.
That's crazy, Like this movie's great. So that's what I
hope to I don't know, kind of get into here
over time, And oh, I guess you asked about history.
That's the only that was the most interesting piece of
history I could really find that. This is not an
official genre, an official sub genre, until until we decided
to get down and write a book on it with

(22:02):
the three of us, Like, this is no book on this,
you know. This is just hopefully going to bring some
some nuance into film discussion and maybe tap into some
deep subconscious that people haven't dealt with in years and
will be cathartic.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
I hope Chris doesn't know that when things are mentioned
like this around me, they tend to actually happen, which
is not my problem anymore now it's yours. I do
think it's funny though. You mentioned the legion of decency,
which I think was what the legion of Boom was
before Hawk joined Animal.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
But that's what it sounds like.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, right, it does. But what's funny is we have
our own board of censorship that everybody is seemingly okay
with as it is already, which is the MPAA, and
they have their own intricacies of that system, which literally
doesn't allow NC seventeen movies to be advertised or shown
in most theaters. And that's I mean, it's a censorship

(22:57):
on top of censorship on top of censorship. And for
people like ourselves who spend a hell of a lot
of time consuming media, the last thing I want is
someone else telling me what I can and can't fucking watch,
because that's a one way ticket to a very bad
conversation that I'm going to have with you because I
don't appreciate it, and nobody else should either. And when

(23:19):
religious organizations start inserting themselves in the conversation, it's like, look,
the MPAA can go fuck themselves, and now you guys
can go fuck yourselves double because you have an agenda
behind it on top of everything else. The MPAA is
not intended to have an agenda, but they end up
having one anyways. So that's why they could only go
fuck themselves once, doubly for anything else, because again, they're

(23:41):
just doing it from this misplaced sense of morality or
authority or a combination of the two.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
And even the audacity to say they know what's best
for the families that they are like representing, right, which
is just a crazy idea. No, in fact, this is
not related to the topic tonight, but there's a really
interesting documentary about the MPAA. Have you all seen it, right? Yeah,
so secretive, like it's crazy, like, and they're just pretty

(24:10):
regular people. It's like, Wow, they're deciding so much.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Just because just because they can't.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
I love that we're gonna be talking about this, and
I love that this is gonna be in our feed
forever because this is such an interesting concept. And uh,
I mean there's so many different tangents that you could
go down with this. I could easily see us doing
a couple more of these in the future versus others.
But like, we're not even gonna get into I think
it's Mormons that primarily use if either of you are

(24:39):
familiar the software vid angel. Yes, yeah, fucking weird.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
Hey they showed they showed Pinocchio having a thong and
Shrek too. That's inappropriate. We got to edit it out
of the movie. You guys are literally fucking with the
movies now, like, back the back the fuck off? For real?

Speaker 3 (24:57):
Did they did? They? Are they allowed to continue because
there was a period in time where they weren't allowed
to continue?

Speaker 1 (25:02):
But are they back as far as I'm aware?

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, Oh wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
This is a real group of people that have no
sense of humor.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Oh my god, have you all ever heard Well, I
don't want to get into Mormon bashing, but have y'all
heard of this new trend where you can put the
penis inside the vagina and then a friend jumps.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
It's not a new trend, baby, Soaking has been around
for a long time. Soaking, we're soaking.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Oh my god, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
I mean, hey, if you're gonna somehow confuse God and
that you're not having sex? Is isn't it weirder for
most people to have a third person in the bedroom
with you? Not everybody's like me? And and is a
pervert and is okay with it? Like plenty of people
be like, oh so, God's okay with you having somebody
jump on the bed to hump somebody else, Like it
seems like it's more problemat they know what they're doing.

(25:55):
It's yeah, so soaking another group of people that have
no sense of humor. But hey, they like to drink
soda with cream in it. So that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
If you do soaking like five times, do you get
upgreated with being called a super soaker?

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Dan? Can we say that on the air?

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Anyways, this is the perfect time to get into our
first question, because man, we are off the rails and
I love it. Chris Rich Texas, Chris Not, Chris Tasher,
mister Haskell, what do you think is what you would
say is the foundational title for this subject tonight? What
is the first one that if somebody's never felt like

(26:33):
they've watched a controversial film of faith, what should they
watch first?

Speaker 3 (26:36):
So, yeah, I'm sure someone who is like actually knowledgeable
of film history is going to come back and refute this.
The earliest one that I've seen is a Danish film.
You know, Denmark is an interesting country because they're extremely
atheists now, but they have a very strong history of Christianity.
But specifically, oh, what's the one. I'll think of the

(27:02):
name here in a second. It's like a sect of Christianity.
They're very strong. Comes from Denmark and Sweden, but they
there's a guy named Carl Theodor Dreyer who made a
bunch of movies, most famously Passion of Joan of Arc
but he made a movie about faith. It's just called
or Debt, and I think it translates to just like

(27:24):
the word or something, but it's I loved it because
it's a it's a scathing critique on the different disciplines
of Christianity, bickering over bullshit, like not important stuff. And
the movie it doesn't matter if we're talking about spoilers, right,
this is not like this is like a okay, the
movie ends with an actual miracle. Like there's a woman

(27:48):
who dies and one of their crazy sons who sort
of like in the looney bin, kind of like like
he's off the rails, neurodivergent individual believes he's Jesus Christ,
and they spend them movie kind of dismissing him. I
don't want to say openly making fun of him, but
certainly dismissive of him. He comes back to the house
performs an actual miracle, and you have this moment in

(28:10):
the film where you have to reconcile with the fact that,
like everybody that's been bickering over non important stuff is
not able to pull off a miracle, and here's somebody
who's like pulling off miracles and actually bringing somebody back
from the dead, and like, how do you reconcile that?
And I like it because it's calling out the hypocrisy

(28:31):
that's in the church community and in like the discussion
of faith and like the discussion of theology, and you know,
the idea at least as a child, I remember the
beauty of Christianity and I'm sure Islam and I'm sure Judaism,
the beauty of these faiths. You help people, and you
love people, and you're kind like like there's these ideals

(28:51):
that you learn in you're like seven that are like beautiful, right,
and you kind of like God is loving and like
you like and so you it's cool because as you
you know, as you get old or like, you learn
that that's not what happens inside of these church bodies.
So here's this guy coming around in the forties and
calling it out, being like, y'all are so busy just bickering,
you're missing a like actual a miracle, and nobody knows

(29:11):
what to do with it. And even as the audience,
you don't know what to do with it because you're
just like, well, was that real? Like that you know,
and they leave it open, they don't answer that question.
So I love it. And I think that was one
of the earliest examples I could think of of somebody
who is openly, openly negotiating his own faith and like

(29:33):
working through his own faith in his own complications, getting
to a point of being hypercritical of it, but having
that background and so sort of like m calling out
people right and being like this is this is what
you look like? And I think it's a really great film.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Wow, that's a lot. I think all of these are
going to be a heavy discussion tonight. Yeah, this and
one other cool thing about the passion of Joan of Arc.
We should probably bring up the story of why we
even can see the film. Do you remember that, Chris,
do you want to share that?

Speaker 3 (30:11):
Oh? You mean it got it got discovered in somebody's
like garage or add it.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
It was in a closet in a mental hospital basically
in like Europe, in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
All of the film elements were just sitting in a closet.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah yeah, And so yeah, I think that that's kind
of like, I know, we've been joking a lot. I'm
happy to go back to that, But that's that's kind
of like the thing I was thinking about when I
was thinking about this topic was you know movies like
that that sort of you watch and you're just like, oh, yeah,
like this is somebody who's angry at the church or

(30:50):
or maybe their childhood or maybe like something in their past,
but there's so intellectual about the way that they're approaching it,
and like and you know, it requires a discussion afterwards
of like talking through it and figuring out what just happened.
And so that those are the kind of ones that
I really really love. There's a bunch more that we
can get into, but that was the earliest one for

(31:12):
me that kind of jumped out like that.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Chris any thoughts.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
I haven't seen it, but I mean sounds like it's
in terms of being right up my Alley. I think
it would be obviously any movie that's willing to have
those kind of uncomfortable conversations out loud, because I mean, yeah,
questioning your own faith is something that people struggle with internally,
let alone trying to externalize it, right, Yeah, So it's

(31:41):
not easy to do. It's not easy to do internally,
and it's even harder to do it externally. It's even
harder to do it externally. That allows other people to
resonate with it, like you know, how many hump, how
many humps, how many hoops have you jumped through at
that point to be successful? It's a lot.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, this this topic alone is going to be difficult
to just come to one of these to watch first,
because really it can be a vibe thing. It can
be you know, what are you familiar with that, what
type of genres already are you already into, what is
your background with faith? That might dictate what is more

(32:16):
appealing to you to watch first. And I think Passion
in general, Marc is a is a great choice. I
also see how you could make the argument for Dogma easily.
This is what I was going to say is Dogma
is sort of the quintessential one from the last twenty
five years that people have grabbed onto for just the

(32:37):
weirdest of reasons, Like the fact that this movie was
picketed to begin with is so stupid. It is so
funny that we have a movie where Alanis Mori set
plays God and you want to picket this movie as
if it's actually impacting your faith, Like there's so many
issues on the face of that, let alone the fact

(32:58):
that you're taking it that seeri that you organize in
response to it.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
To me, Doghen was a great example of one that
I bet none of them saw, right.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
They wouldn't have picketed it if they had seen it.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
No, right, Nah, it's harm like it's a there's a
poop monster in it.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
It's the best, one of the best parts of the
entire movie.

Speaker 3 (33:23):
Yeah, it's the movie's fine.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
I mean to think that they spent their time picketing
the movie with the ship monster is the funniest part.
I mean, it is.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
Like, what, you know, what twelve year old kid is
watching that being like I'm questioning everything, Like no, it's
like dick and fart jokes and it's funny and like,
you know, we're dick and poop jokes in this case,
and every bike, every guy probably had a crush on.
Every head of sexual male probably had a crush on
h Was it some a hyaker that was the stripper?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, I mean I had a crush on Into Fiorentino.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
But oh yeah, she's just great. Yeah, wrestling with her faith?

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Well, and hey, she worked, didn't she work at an
abortion clinic?

Speaker 3 (34:11):
Isn't that?

Speaker 2 (34:12):
That was the thing about the movie that really made
them Catholics mad. Well, that and the fact that it
was Jay and style of Bob saying every terrible thing
known to man. So well, they already don't like Kevin
Smith's movies, Like, what the fuck are they think is
gonna happen if he makes a religious movie? Oh we
love this movie. This is for us, Like, couldn't be
further from the fucking truth.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
But typical Kevin Smith. The movie opens, well, it opens anyways.
One of the early scenes is Ben Affleck and Matt
Damon arguing with a nun and convincing her that God's
not real but it is.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
I believe that is the opening of the movie.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
That is right, even though they met good So yeah,
it's just it's that kind of movie, like it's funny.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, and then he waits thirteen or fourteen years and
makes another religious movie that pisses people off. So yeah,
I just love that guy.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Zach and Miriam make a porto.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
I was getting a red state. But people were saying,
oh god, I'm both of them.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
That is your answer, Dogma, Ryan, My answer is Dogma.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
I think it's the cast alone makes this super approachable
for people. And I think it's like it's kind of
like a warm hug of a controversial film, because again,
on the surface, there's no reason this should be controversial.
But the fun thing is it does lead to discussions
about faith. There's lots of stuff in this that is
rooted in real beliefs, in the real tenets of these churches.

(35:39):
And when you have people like Matt Damon and Ben
Affleck and people that we've loved seeing for years and
music and film and Alan Rickman, like, there's so much
that you can you can relate to and go, oh, like,
that's snape. Let's just sit down and have a discussion
about this. Because I like this actor and the stuff
that they talked about. It hit home a little bit

(36:01):
and maybe you know the way I was raised let's
discuss on why that felt like sort of last miss
last Phoenix.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
That's not a word, last fimitis.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
Last I had a case of that last week. So
it's it is something that can lead to great discussions.
And yeah, that's absolutely why I would pick this one.
What about you, mister Statue?

Speaker 2 (36:30):
So I didn't pick either one of these. First off,
other Chris never even heard of it. Ryan, I kind
of wondered if you had picked Dogma. I picked a
movie that I consider to be a perfect movie. We
did an episode on it on the Culture Cast a
couple of years ago, I want to say twenty nineteen,
twenty twenty. The movie is still banned in Finland, or

(36:55):
was up until two thousand and one. Like I said,
I genuinely consider this to be a perfect movie. It's
controversial about faith, I guess. I mean, it's controversial about
a lot of things. But Ken Russell's The Devils, I
think for me, is kind of it checks all the
boxes because a it's an Oliver Reid movie, and who

(37:16):
doesn't love a guy who has a tattoo of Falcon
talents on the tip of his dick? I mean, really,
who doesn't. First off, speaking of controversial. Oliver Reid alone
is a controversial human being. But the movie talks about
faith and the use of faith and how faith can
be used against people, especially and like you kind of

(37:37):
already talked about Chris within the church itself, using it,
you know, circling back on itself, and using the tools
within the church to deal with people within the church
you don't personally agree with, or that are not pushing
the message in the direction that you wanted to go.
So The Devil's kind of talks a little bit about that.

(37:58):
But I mean, it's a movie that talks about a
lot of things. I mean, sexual repression is one of them,
because of Vanessa Redgraves character at one point masturbates with
Oliver Reed's femur. At least in the uncut version of
the movie. Oliver Reed was cut. From what I've heard though,
And I mean, I think, you know, Ken Russell would

(38:21):
have approved of that joke. I've seen Listomania. There's enough
Wieners in that movie to stack it to steck end
on end to the moon. But something like The Devil's
I think, kind of straddles the line between being entertaining
a story worth telling, performance is worth talking about because
Ken Russell knows how to get the best out of

(38:43):
Oliver Reed and Vanessa Redgrave. I think it's my favorite
thing I've seen Oliver Reed, and personally, Will Dodson is
shaking his head somewhere about Oliver Twist, but Oliver Reed
in The Devils is genuinely one of the best parts
of the movie. And again, what the movie is talking
about usage of religion on the people within the church,

(39:03):
I think is just as interesting a conversation to have
as the one that Dogma has or the one that
the film you were talking about has Chris, which is exteriorly,
how is religion being consumed and used by people? But
I think for me a more personally interesting conversation is
the corruption within the church and how that plays out

(39:26):
amongst itself. Because nothing I love more than leopards eating
their own fucking faces, as it were, and The Devils
is a great example of this. Is what happens when
religion is used against religious people for negative consequences, Because
if you can't guess, Oliver Reed's character doesn't make it
to the final reel if somebody's masturbating with his femur.

(39:47):
So again, it's a hard movie to watch too. There's
a lot going on. I don't want to say it's
like it's a fun, upbeat movie. It's not. That's the
other thing, like, it's it's a doubter of a movie
compared to Dogma.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Have you seen the version where they have the rape
of Christ scene? Yeah, okay, I haven't seen that.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, it's I mean again, like in a movie that's
already kind of out there, like it's just one more
drop in the bucket of castles stuff, you know. Yeah,
And there were other things that I wanted to answer here,
but this is kind of the thing that when I
kept thinking about it, and as we approached the evening
of this recording, I was like, that's kind of the
thing that for me stands out because I don't think

(40:27):
it's controversial. I think to go further into the idea
that you were getting at, which I don't think necessarily
all of our ideas had to check the box of
not actually controversial, but this one does check that box.
This is not really that controversial. And the fact that
it's still like really hard to get a hold of
is another thing that I think bears mentioning, because it's

(40:48):
still really hard to get an unrated version of the movie,
damn near impossible. I'm not even sure there is one available.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Easily, not a legal way.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
No.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, so there you go, which, in and of it itself,
like that level of censorship and oppression should speak volumes
to the content of the movie contained.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
What's funny too, is I completely agree with you. Obviously
it's not that controversial. But the funny thing is, it's
when you try to explain how controversial it is. You
could just say it's directed by Ken Russell and that
explains enough. Like he's an out there surrealist director. That's
sort of what you get with everything with him.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah, pretty much. Again, if you watch it expecting it's
going to be a straightforward, fun movie, you clearly haven't
seen a lot of Ken Russell's stuff.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
So he did he wasn't he Layer of the White Worm?
Wasn't that him as well? Sure that's a good answery
to Ken Whissel.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, well, definitely is not. I saw that movie. I
still don't understand what the fucking point was like other
than it being a vehicle for that one guy to
go I want to fuck you in the ass, which
is a funny line in and out of context, but
the movie can't make it an hour and a half
on that alone.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
It's built up to that.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
On that note, let's let's go over to our question too, then,
because I feel like this is where we're going to
get the most in depth on this specific subgenre here. So,
mister Haskell, could you recommend a lesser known film within
this brand new fake subgenre that we made up for
tonight which might not be like a great first time

(42:27):
watching for somebody that could turn somebody away potentially, but
still is a really great movie.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
So I didn't realize that I had not seen Breaking
the Waves from Lars of Wind sure in a long time.
I saw recently. Like I said, we're going through some
movies on the on the podcast, and as we as
we were talking about it in processing it, we had
Celeste on that episode actually, which is she's always awesome.

(42:54):
But as we were processing it really hold that this
is an allegory for the christ figure as told through
basically somebody who's kind of skeptical saying like, okay, Christians,
you believe this stuff, but like, have you ever thought
about what it's like to sacrifice for something all the

(43:17):
way to the death, like, like, have you ever thought
about what that actually like would look like? Like that's
kind of fucked up, And so he just goes on
this journey of like a woman who kind of takes
the role of the Christ's figure from the Bible, and
she there's a the movie is all about her believing

(43:38):
that there's a there's a there's a bunch of backstory here.
But her husband is paralyzed and he wants her to
have sex with other men, like to feel it. She
can't justify that because she's from a conservative like religious background.
So the way that she kind of does some mental
gymnastics just to please her husband is that she starts

(43:59):
to believe it's going to heal him. And like, as
the story goes on, he actually starts getting better. And
as the movie sort of the big moment is he
gets better, but it's at the ultimate sacrifice. And so
it's this moment where you're like, wait, like you're watching
the degradation of a human and it's horrible and it's

(44:19):
hard to watch, but from her perspective, it's this like
beautiful act of sacrifice. So she's willing to go through
anything for this act of sacrificing so that her husband
can walk again, and it's just gets confusing, and as
you kind of start to unpack it, you're like, oh, yeah,
I think he's and so anyway, so I did some
research on the back of that episode, and it turns

(44:40):
out that he is a sort of a Christian person
who has like a complicated relationship with the church, and
he does put a lot of Christian allegories into into
his movies, and so there's a good chance that this
that's what this actually is about, although he's never stated
it officially. He's not the kind of director that's going
to come out and say like, here's the five steps
of what my movie is about, you know. But so

(45:04):
I'm gonna put Breaking the Waves as my choice of
a movie that people don't talk about in this context.
But I think as you really start to like digest
what the movie is about, it becomes a super interesting
look at like what it would be for a human
to actually go through this type of sacrifice and how

(45:24):
messed up it is. And it's like it's not a
glamorous thing. It's really hard to watch and it sucks.
So I'm gonna that's my lesser known.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
One other, Chris, have you have you seen Breaking the Waves?

Speaker 2 (45:36):
I have not.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
It's a great movie on top of it all, Like
I mean, it's like a you know, award winning type,
but but for a good reason, like it's it's a
good movie.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
I've never seen it either. I've truthfully only seen probably
just a few large von Truer films, and most of
them in preparation for recording with you here soon. Other
than that, yeah, it's not one that has been like
on the forefront of conversations kind of anywhere, not even

(46:08):
just on this topic.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
No, And it took you know, forty minutes with some Luckily,
Celeste has a bigger brain than me, and we were
just dissecting and we were like, hold that. And then
as we started to go deeper into that analogy, a
lot of stuff in the movie collect But yeah, so
I'm claiming that as a faith film.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
This is an interesting one and one that I've been
meaning to watch ever since this UK company, Crizone put
out the Lars von Truer said, I've been really wanting
to dive through everything. It's just intimidating, obviously, and you
guys are leading the way and putting it out there
is something that's great to do, so I appreciate that.
But yeah, this is from what I hear. It's a
great film. I'm eager to see it, and I wish

(46:52):
I had more eloquent things to say about it. But
lars On Druer, I feel like you could kind of
find that whole religious thing in literally pretty much everything
he creates. It's just sort of this ongoing, underlying big tone,
at least of where it's affecting the film that he's making.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
Similar to Chris Sashu, if you can get past the
extremely offensive words, you see a deep heart and someone
who's a deep thinker. And no, I don't know, I
was trying to make something work it.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
But no, I think I think you know you know Chris.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
I think, yeah, I don't know how many you've seen
films of his you've seen, but from the forty eight
minutes that I've known you now, I feel like you
would like his movies because there's a ton of nuance
in them. And I don't know about House that Jack Build.
I haven't seen that yet, so I'm bracing myself for that.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
But I like that movie a fair amount.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
Actually awesome.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
It's a masterpiece.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
It's really good. I mean, you're you're a fucking monster
for saying it's a masterpiece. Varah, you know why. It's
a hard it's a hard movie to like, let's put
it that way.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Yeah, but good, right, But you all are sitting here
talking about how good it is.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yet I feel like I could say you will enjoy it,
but to make a blanket statement that everybody would enjoy
it is not something I'm willing to do. It might be
the most approachable of the Lars von Truer stuff I've
seen in terms of like the the conceit being imminently approachable,
Like it's a story about a serial killer and we're

(48:38):
talking to him directly. Like that's kind of at the
forefront of a lot of people's minds because everybody wants
to be into that six shit, you know, with Jeffrey Dahmer.
And it's like, for me, the house that Jack built
kind of is part and parcel with a whole host
of like things that are just diving a little further
into the human psyche than most people are probably comfortable with.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
H Yeah, yeah, I think I'll like it.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yeah yeah, I mean it's it's weird and it's I
think it's like the best thing I've seen Matt Matt.
Is it Matt Dylan in that movie?

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Sure is.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, Kevin Dylan's.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
So he's the delayed brother.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
Von Cheer has a movie called The Idiots that is
very on theme for that joke, and it was probably
the most uncomfortable two hours of my life. But we
won't get into that right now. What about y'all?

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Have you?

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Did you come up with the title for the Underappreciated One?

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Look at you hosting?

Speaker 3 (49:37):
I love it?

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Uh, mister statue, you got an answer for us?

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I do, and it's not something that either one of
y'all of it are going to answer. I can guarantee
you that because neither one of y'all watch Indian cinema
as much as I do. So I'm actually going to
sit here and be a little bit of a self
advocate for Indian cinema. The film that came out in
twenty fourteen, p K, which stars Amir Khan as an

(50:02):
alien who comes to Earth and then tries to because
people keep telling him, go ask God for help and
he'll help you. So he goes to Christianity, Hinduism, Islam,
and I think at least one or two others, and
then he starts essentially having openly the conversation about, you know,
everybody who claims that they can talk to God actually can't.

(50:25):
And I'm not saying that I can, but they can't,
and where that kind of that's part and parcel with
the movie. I would say that the movie is not
necessarily super controversial. It's pretty controversial in India for reasons
that our people in this country would find to be
kind of I don't know, passe like, he's naked on

(50:47):
the poster, but he's holding a boombox in front of himself.
That was a big problem. But the conversation of the
movie has about religion, I think is an interesting one
because again it's a movie made in India for a
culture that is relatively conservative right now, the regime that's
in charge, I would use the regime because they're rather oppressive.

(51:08):
But similarly to our country, there are plenty of Hindus
and other people who live in India that are falling
out with their faith just like people here are. And
PK is kind of having that conversation of what does
it look like to be spiritual without the religious part
of it, and I don't know. It's also a good movie.
Amir Khan's great and I think more people should watch

(51:32):
Indian cinema unless time I checked, it's on Netflix. And
I'm an advocate for Indian cinema because I think everybody
should be able to enjoy films from all over the place,
and subtitles should not be a barrier to entry. But
I understand why they are, but they shouldn't be, and
so I will always take an opportunity to advocate for
non English primary English, because there is some English in

(51:53):
Indian cinema, but non primarily English cinema. I will always
advocate for it where I can. So PK is my answer. However,
if I wanted to be me an answer for a
Western film, I would just say The Exorcists because I
think it's it. Speaking of it being overrated, it has
no reason and right to be controversial, I mean other
than the part where she masturbates with the cross, which

(52:15):
I get it is a big deal. But another movie
that didn't need any controversy to help it be successful,
that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Yeah, for sure, this one is is.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
I mean the Extorcist specifically is one of those that
obviously it got picketed because of course, but it's it's
so tame when you watch it back now and it's like, man,
life has changed. And then you watch other films that
were controversial for other storylines around that time, and it's like, well,
so little has changed, so how is this so controversial? Anyways,
it's it again at least to weird discussions like that.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
But the best thing, I mean, Exorcist has this beautiful
dialogue between science and religion, right, which it doesn't really
it kind of gets lost in the controversy, but like
that's a very eloquently like written, Like there's this the
mother who is like honestly trying both, like she doesn't know,
she's just trying to help her daughter out.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
And I it's not for the goddamn patriarchy she would
have been able to help, you know, I mean God,
man talk about talk about God.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
Fuck God damn always stepping in and ruining thing.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
I know.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Right, it's like we had The Exorcist for how long
and nobody made a sequel, and then we're just like,
let's make a sequel, like a real sequel. I'm not
saying two and three aren't real sequels. But like in
terms of what Exerssis Believer was trying to be, those
aren't the same kind of sequel.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
God.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Anyways, I'm gonna throw out my answer because I'm gonna
I'm gonna share one that was actually kind of off
putting for me the first time I watched it, which
I love talking about those types of films on this show.
I watched Aeronofsky's Mother for the first time and hated
that movie, and uh, for some reason approaching it a

(53:59):
couple years later, more separated from faith, more separated from
my hometown where I'd grown up sort of oppressed in
my own ways due to my shitty family, but also
the bigger thing is more understanding of cinema and the
allegories that come through it. I appreciate this movie a
whole hell of a lot more and I understand why
some people would hate it. But I think if you

(54:21):
are experienced with film and you've never seen this, I
think there's a lot to love about Aeronofsky's Mother, And
there's some things that are sort of up in the air,
whether it's an allegory for the Christ's story or whether
it's the whole woo woo spirituality of like Mother Earth
type of story, but there's some things that are fairly

(54:42):
explicitly about the actual story of Christ and the way
they depict it. I think the Aeronofsky really pulled it
off in this And obviously the acting from the two
leads is compelling from start to finish and terrifying in
certain scenes and just really emotional through and through, whether

(55:02):
that be the relief they feel in some scenes, the
agne they feel in the other scenes, and the spectrum
that they live on during this entire film is just
something that in itself is shows the accomplishments that they
put on screen for this film.

Speaker 3 (55:19):
I've never seen Mother.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
It's a tough one to get into because a lot
of people are are off put by multiple things about
a lot of people just plain hate Aeronofski. A lot
of people hate Aeronofski. A lot of people hate Jennifer
Lawrence too. That's sadly one of the other big ones.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
But that's where I come in at it. That's why
I've never seen it. I just me and I don't
get it.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Have you watched the movies that she's actually like great
in though, or have you watched the mainstream shit that
she's known for.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
I yes, probably both. I mean that's the thing, like
I've probably seen a handful of both. The acting stylings
of and for Lawrence just aren't something that I personally
find compelling, but I understand what other people do. It's
not like I don't get it. It's not like, oh,
why why do people find her compelling? I don't know,
Like I get it. I totally get it.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
I would.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
I guess at this point Aeronovsky being a stumbling block
I understand more just given the kinds of stuff that
he normally makes, which is pretty broad to say the least.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
Yeah, I just remember like he's one of these foundational
sort of directors for me, coming out of watching like
whatever summer blockbuster came out, and just being kind of
wrecked by recuem for a dream, just like seeing a
needle go into an open, festering wound and the camera
just holding it, just being like the fuck and like
just feeling that for like a day afterwards, you know,

(56:46):
just be like that movie is heavy. So I kind
of have a soft spot for him, and I do
want to see Mother. I guess I haven't seen all
of his movies, but the stuff he was doing when
I was in college, which is like early two thousand
and I have a soft spot for a lot of
that kind of stuff, I guess just because that's what
I was like learning to love movies.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
I guess I like that you mentioned that because one
of the things for him that I've always appreciated is
he does not let his viewers off the hook. There.
If he wants you to fill an emotion, you are
going to feel the weight of that emotion no matter what.
And he's done that even you know, through the Whale.
There's so many different things that could have been, like

(57:26):
I'm gonna give you an out in this scene, but nope,
we're gonna let you to seal your word. We're gonna
let you fester in it for a minute.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Oh did he direct the Whale with Brendan Fraser? Yeah, okay, interesting, Yeah,
maybe have five percent more interested in seeing it then.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
It's not like from zero to five percent.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Yeah, basically yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
And I love Brendan Fraser. But even I was like,
I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
I mean, I'm sure it's great.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
And that's the problem, right, Like, I'm sure it's great.
I'm sure it is like right, Like do does me
watching it need to confirm its greatness? Like it's fine, right,
Like I don't know. I don't want to be bummed
out by Brendan Fraser in a fat suit for two hours?
Like is that is that okay to say as someone
who watches film like I don't want to actively put

(58:18):
myself through the emotional ringer. I do a good job
of it enough on my own daily, Like I don't
need a movie to do it for me.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
That's the point of the show that we completely are
anti gatekeeping. You don't want to watch a movie, don't watch.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
It, That's my point, Like I said, like you don't
want too cool like good shouldn't feel bad for not
wanting to watch Home Alone at Christmas time?

Speaker 3 (58:37):
Okay, now hold on that.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
I've never seen Home Alone, just so you know whoa
is it? WHOA?

Speaker 3 (58:48):
I mean, I have no idea how to separate that
from nostalgia. I can't answer that question.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
See that that should be a fucking micro genre of films.
You can't separate from nostalgia.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Crystal, come back to do that soon.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Yeah, Home Alone is, like I'm sure up there for
a lot of people, I wanted to mention one that
none of us mentioned. But can we get a little
love for Dan Brown, a little bit of love for
the Da Vinci Code.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Never seen it?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Oh wow, Well you're not not better off for it.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
I mean, well, I'm also not in the demographic at
all like Dad's.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
Yeah, kind of are right.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
And kind of our dog like it came out now, sure,
but it came out. When did that first one come out?
Like two thousand and six? Yeah, I was, I was
nineteen writing on trains.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
You were a daddy then, but not a dad.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
I certainly was not that. I was a pudgy fuck.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Jesus a community for everyone.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Yeah, bro, you were a pudgy fuck that didn't want
to watch Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code. That's what
you're saying. Okay, true.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
My dad was reading the book at the time, so
it was just off putting for me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
That's fair. I mean, that's the thing. Like it's it
was fucking unavoidable, like the book was. The book was
so unavoidable that I used to have a close friend
who we would make a joke anytime we would go
to like a little library or to like a used
bookstore like or Goodwill, like fuck and Dan Brown's The
DaVinci Code always a copy, more than likely the hardcover

(01:00:22):
even so, Yeah, like the DaVinci Code. Another movie that
like doesn't deserve to have any controversy around it because
it's all based on Okay, anybody who thinks the Divintion
goes real? First Off, it's not. Secondly, it's based off
of bad information from three other ding Dongs who wrote
Holy Blood, Holy Grail, which is also a poorly researched

(01:00:43):
book about nonsense. So to you, but to your point
Chris earlier about Dogma, like the fucking hey, idiots, did
you watch the movie? Like? There's nothing here like it,
if anything, Like the movie is essentially saying like Jesus
Christ existed, Like is that what you assholes always wanted
with somebody to go? Jesus existed? Okay, we all agree.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Right, Yeah, the da Vinci Code isn't that. I had
a crush on Audrey Tetto for a while after Emily
and so I saw that movie. I think she's in
that right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
It's also directed by Ron Howard. Actually, all three of
the Dan Brown stories are directed by Ron Howard. Because
apparently somebody locked he got locked in.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Hard is that part of the Grinch universe.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
It all takes place on the same snowflake. Actually, that's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
And and at.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
The god damn it now, I want this so bad.
Dan Brown's the Grinchy coat. That's what I want. Boy
Ron Howard, he's a man of many talents. He knows
how to get great performances out of Jim Carrey and
Tom Hanks's long hair in the that was all speaking

(01:01:59):
of consal that's the most controversial thing about that movie.
Tom Hanks with long hair, with something that nobody asked for.
Nobody asked for. That that's the cont The real controversy
is Tom Hanks's hair piece. Actually, what the funny thing
with the Divintion Code is like the Divintion Code ultimately
is just like boring Indiana Jones, like Indiana Jones for

(01:02:20):
like even bigger Nerds, because Indiana Jones in and of
itself is kind of offensive. I mean, the first movie
is about the Ark of the Covenant, the last movie
is about the Holy Grail, and both of those are
essentially mcguffins, and both of those things actually have rather
large places within the Christianity. Mytho says it were but Hey,

(01:02:40):
it's being trivialized by Harrison Ford blowing up Nazis with it.
You know, that's what the arc was made for. You
can find controversy and fucking anything is kind of my point.
I mean, anything can be controversial. But to your point, Chris,
this entire idea of people in the world of faith
don't have a sense of humor.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
I think Indiana Jones would get a B rating. I
don't think it's a full sea.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
No, no, they would. How much? How much would that
Mormon movie cutting thing cut out of the movie for
five minutes, ten minutes. Isn't it a bit by the Mormons,
isn't it? This is not me saying this, this is
just reality.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
No, no, they know no fushback. I meant, I don't
know if this is going too off topic, But you
said something, Chris, that was kind of like central to
my God. That sounds so pretentious, but like central to
my whole thesis. Here is this idea of reacting to
something and kind of missing the point of it, and

(01:03:36):
so last simptation of Christ for me, that's the point
of that's the one that I that started this whole
kind of thing. The spiral for me, because the whole
controversy is around there's the story of the Christ. He
goes up on the cross and then he gets down
and he has like a life and he marries Mary
Maximen and they have kids, and like he gets caught

(01:03:57):
up in like a suburban dad kind of life and
like he's miserable. And then the movie like swoops closed.
He's back on the cross and he's like he sees
the temptation in front of him and he chooses to die.
That's literally just like Christian dogma. Like there's nothing controversial.
Scorsese just showed Temptation. Now, granted he showed it for

(01:04:19):
thirty minutes, so most people probably got bored.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Like that's the real controversy, righty fucking boring movie. There
were no devo needle drops. That's the real problem with it, right,
So that's.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
A good crime here. But if you actually watch it
to the end, he shows the Christ figure who gets
tempted and chooses to die, and it's a very humanizing way,
like the struggle of somebody who was supposed to be
partially human, right, And I just I remember seeing it
just be like, well that is so disappointing, Like there's
nothing controversial about this movie, and it's made out to

(01:04:57):
be this one of the prime examples of like you know,
oh wow, like the church pick getted in and you know,
I just I just don't think anyone saw to the
end because they got bored by the long kind of
like dream sequence.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
I mean, I think I think the real problem goes
back to kind of the way things are consumed now.
Things are consumed headline only and not not the actual
content of whatever is being written. And to your point,
like the Last Temptation of Christ is just telling the story,
that's all it's doing. I mean, it's it's telling the
story of what if the human side of Jesus Christ

(01:05:33):
won out? What would that have looked like as opposed
to the side who again felt it felt obligated to die,
which again, like to your point, like, even as someone
who is very spiritual but not religious, that's that's a
hard concept to grapple with here, just sitting and thinking
about it for two seconds, because I wouldn't die for podcasting,

(01:05:55):
Let's put it that way. Like I've never found anything
in my life that I would be like, I'd be
okay dying for this idea or concept, and to get
to that point and to have that conversation openly about
Jesus is I don't know why that's controversial. It's just
nobody's having that conversation and somebody wanted to. I'm glad

(01:06:17):
it was in the hands of Martin Scorsese and not
I don't know, throw out any number of people that
could have directed it poorly. Jesus age Christ, Rennie Harlan.
I'm glad it wasn't a Ready.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
Harlan movie, Reddy Harlan.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
Can you imagine that Last Temptation of Christ as directed
by Rennie Harlan? Oh boy, god, how many does he do?

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Two?

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
One two?

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
Two?

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
One?

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
No too? He did the second one and the third?
Did he do the third one too?

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
It's Nick Tiernan then Harlan. But I don't know what
happens after that, Christ hard.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
I mean again, like that's that is what would be
offensive now, is like doing something ridiculous like Book of Mormon.
I mean even the Mormon Church had to respond to
the Book of Mormon and they were like, yeah, they're
kind of right, Like that was essentially their whole statement
is like they're not wrong. We can actually laugh at ourselves,
like the Mormons can at least laugh at themselves, unlike

(01:07:11):
the scientologists. I mean a bunch of groups of people
that aren't. I mean, we didn't mention going clear Battlefield Earth,
but you know, there you go. They got mentioned you're welcome.
Isn't that sacrilege for scientologists? Like Battlefield Earth is a
bad movie. It is a poor example of everything that
they believe. Isn't Battlefield Earth like about what they believe in?

(01:07:34):
It is right? Like this isn't me grasping its strong
they do.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
It's very tied today.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
Yeah, so like that's probably bad for them because it's
a terrible movie.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
Dude. I saw I'm a big fan of south Park
growing up, and my wife and I happened to be
in New York the opening like season or whatever a
Book of Mormon, and I was like, we're going, And
I was like, you know, we got tickets that were
like in like if you imagine the theater, it had
like a pillar kind of on the side of both sides,

(01:08:07):
and there were seats that were half behind the pillar,
and they were one hundred and eighty each and we
were like not in a position to afford that early
in our careers, but I was like, we're doing it.
So we saw we got to see it the first
the first thing run. I don't know if I've ever
laughed harder in a in a musical like that, just
so I don't know in that movie that that production

(01:08:28):
is amazing, and I was stunned. The Mormon Church kind
of supported it in a way of being like yeah,
I mean it's you know, they go a little far,
but it's funny because there's that's the stuff in there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Well, and they and they lambasted the Mormon Church directly,
like yeah, so the Catholic Church sometimes they're not even
being addressed directly and they find a way to be
like offended. And it's like, guys, like, what are you
doing when you're not being offended? Like, don't answer that.
We already know five percent. We found out. We know,
like we know what you're doing when you're not doing
I'm not I'm not saying that's what I'm not saying

(01:09:01):
that's what they're doing. But Spotlight's a movie you can
go and watch with Shrek on stages on Brian Darcy James, what.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
A deep reference there. We're kind of already getting into
it and this is already shaping up to be our
longest episode ever. So let's dive into our third question, what, Chris,
do you think is the biggest impact that this topic
has had on pop culture as a whole. Now, again,
this doesn't have to be like a specific title. It
can be something philosophical. But I have a feeling that

(01:09:31):
you've got an actual answer for this one.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
No, I mean I think, actually, you know, I think
we've been kind of dancing around it and maybe even
to some point talking about it directly. But I just
think this is the earliest example that I can think of.
Probably race would be another one that's up there of
a topic that requires nuance where nuance was not allowed

(01:09:56):
into the discussion. And for me, that's a shame because
you know, like I just I happened to not grow
up in the US. So as part of that upbringing,
I had friends from different cultures and we ragged on
them for being from different countries constantly. Like my Indian friends.
I reminded them they were Indian every day and like

(01:10:18):
made fun of them ruthlessly for it, but there was
zero malice in it. Like these were like my best friends,
Like I would die for them, and they made fun
of me for being a stupid American and like they
were right, you know, like I was the dumbest one
in the group. And like so coming back to the
US in college and like seeing I remember I made

(01:10:39):
good friends with this guy from Mexico and I started
ragging on him for being Mexican in Texas and he
was like, yo, like you can't do that. I was like, oh,
I'm sorry, why, Like what do you mean? Like, I'm
obviously like we're friends, right, I was just saying, you know,
you stink and stuff like whatever. Like I was just
like whatever, I'm just being like, you know, and he
was like so the usual, you know, and he was

(01:10:59):
like no, no, no, no, no, like you can't like what
do you like? So he explained racism to me.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
And that was the day that you learn what racism was.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
H I was like, oh, man, I've been doing that
for years.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
This is one of the great stories I've ever heard.
Just my god, where did you grow up that racism?
Where where no one saw the color of each other's skin,
darly racism?

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
It just looked different. I grew up in Indonesia, right,
And so in Indonesia, if you're Indonesian, you like hate
the Chinese. It's like not in the funny way. It's
like like like they attack Chinese owners.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
I mean as opposed to people who hate Chinese for
the funny reasons because they put MSG in their food, right,
Like has nothing to do with the constant oppressive regime
that they're under over there, right that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
Man?

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
I love that you just brought up the MSG thing
because I just topped my wife why that was racist
like last week.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
Yeah, and people still fucking think it too, which is like, hey, everybody,
like you know who came up with that? White people?
You know why? Because they were scared of food that
tasted like something. Apparently I don't know what it is.
This food tastes good. There must be something about it
that they're doing to it that makes it taste that way.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
Yeah, I wish she is good, but if we did,
there's one takeaway from this episode. MSG is amazing. Yeah,
but no, there was certainly racism, of course, but like
there was just a more comfort comfort in like mixing racism,
Like there wasn't that same like three hundred years of
institutional oppression that made a casual joke about black people

(01:12:41):
in America like not funny just like fundamentally if I
tell it, just fundamentally like not funny, but like that's
what I had to kind of like catch up on.
I was like, no, no, like Texas and Mexico is
not like friendly like all the time. You can't just
like be so casual with that kind of stuff. That's
that's sort of what you know. I just kind of
got caught up on some of the history. How was
that related to anything we were talking about? What I

(01:13:05):
was racist until I was twenty two. I probably still am.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
By the way, Chris is twenty three and a half.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
Yea, how old are you?

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
So?

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Yeah, This again can have many, many, many different answers,
and it can have many different ways to interpret this question.
In regards to controversial films of faith, I think what
I'm going to bring up here is I think that
the sub genre as a whole that we made up
tonight has sort of banded together to help subvert the

(01:13:40):
feelings of a lot of people that were raised in
our generation and have started to make people question things
about their life. And it's not most of the time,
a movie is not the sole inspiration for questioning some
of these things. But there's movies like Jesus Camp. That
made a lot of people go, oh, I'm religious and

(01:14:03):
I'm watching this and this is crazy. How do people
do this? And somebody next to them goes, I felt
the same way going to your church and they go WHOA,
that makes me feel super weird. And suddenly somebody's questioning
something because they saw it through somebody else's perspective. And
the crazy thing, that's how I have fallen in love
with movies, Like there's so many things that I never

(01:14:25):
would have been able to experience without films. It's my
passport around the world to be able to celebrate cultures
through cinema that I never would have been able to
see because I'm poor. And so it's a way for
me to appreciate beliefs and cultures and feelings and adventures
that other people can feel. And when you're talking about

(01:14:47):
in terms of spirituality one hundred percent, you are literally
boring into something that is so deep within somebody that
if they start to question it, you are absolutely changing
their life. And so the way that I'm going to
say this is affected pop culture. I think that quite
a few of these have likely played a pretty big
part in some people questioning their beliefs and seeing our

(01:15:09):
generation making about face away from the church and two
things like science and good karma and just finding a
way to leave the planet a better place than we
found it. I silenced them.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
The movie that comes to mind when we talk about
that is Mighty Python's Life of Brian. Yes, like it's
just a you know, like the behind the scenes the
commentary for that is really interesting. I like the behind
the scenes where they talk about them prepping for that
because they went to Morocco and just got stoned for
like six weeks. But like they read the Bible like

(01:15:48):
like deeply.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Stone, what kind of stone are we talking about here?

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
Or you got to define this?

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Yeah, you got to make sure.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
A new Testament, Like what are we talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Right, old Testament only baby. I like it when they
do the corporal stuff. Really, it's when you really know
that they're not fucking around.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
This is when it turns into a kink episode.

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
Kink dot com The Armory in San Francisco? Is that
what you're talking about? Kink? Okay, favorite kink movies? Well
not just kidding. Yeah, there's too many for me to pick.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):
Yeah, but they knew what they were talking about, like
they researched a lot of like, so that movie is
both funny, but also if you're coming to it as
a Christian, it's like, oh, they really understand this, Like
they're not sort of just lampooning it. I mean they
are but coming from a place of like deep knowledge
of it, which is different, which is more comforting I

(01:16:47):
think in a way, because you're laughing from like a
place of being known as opposed to like an outsider
kind of coming in and laughing at you. And so
I think that that's one movie when you just said that,
that's one movie that jumps to mind that really does
a good job with that of making like film discussion
about some of the crazy stuff that happens in this
text feel like safe.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
True, I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
So I guess my answer I think is kind of
similar to what y'all have kind of alluded to, which
is not to get deeply personal. But this is going
to sound weird, But for someone who watches a lot
of cinema, movies don't really get me in terms of
like a real emotional response, the thing that does is music.

(01:17:36):
For me. Music I can hear a song and just boom,
it'll like shut me down completely, So cinema doesn't have
that effect on me personally. But my answer to this
question is taking into account for a lot of people
I know it does. The transformative nature of cinema can
allow you to actually change the way you feel about
something that so many people for so long never even questioned,

(01:18:00):
never even had the idea that that could possibly not
be the way things are. And to your point, Ryan,
and to your point, Chris, what has allowed.

Speaker 4 (01:18:08):
Us to do that bullshit? Making shit up? And that's
because we're making shit up, to make shit up to
explain the shit that we've already made up to explain
that shit. How many more things do we have to
make up to explain things we already made up? That
is cinema talking about religion, because it's made up shit
talking about made up shit, And that's kind of a

(01:18:28):
weird thing, But those things are more transformative than anything
else is. And I would go as far as to say, look,
if we want to say the Bible is five percent
real and ninety five percent homilies, and you know, and
anecdotes and all sorts of just moral nonsense that is
comforting for some people to get involved in. That is

(01:18:51):
a fictional text, and so the things that are talking
about it are just talking about a fictional text fictionally,
because again we're not sure the veracity of any of
the Bible outside of someone named Jesus Christ probably existed,
but plenty of people probably had a name like that
or similar to that. So again, it just comes down
to this idea of the transformative nature of media. Can

(01:19:13):
transform you into a believer, but it can also transform
you away from it in a different direction. And I
don't know what other things can do that, Like, I
don't really you know, having conversations with people is one thing,
but for some people, myself included, like engaging with media
can feel what.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Some people might call a religious experience. I wouldn't call
it that because it's more just making me feel a
certain way. But I'm pretty sure that's what religious experiences
are feeling a certain way about something that maybe you
wouldn't feel a certain way about otherwise because you haven't
ascribed meaning to it. And you know, I've said this
before on another podcast, I'll say it here. I kind

(01:19:55):
of wish that we just prayed to J. R. R.
Tolkiens the Cimarillion as the Bible as opposed to the
Bible being the Bible because it's a lot more fun,
it's a lot more interesting, there's a lot more stuff
going on that is actively exciting. And it also doesn't
talk about subjugating people that exist now because it's all
about people that don't exist anymore. And oh wait, that

(01:20:19):
is what the Bible's doing. So it's really hard for
me to sit and talk to people that are like
hardcore right wing conservative Christians because they want to believe
the religion veracity of the Bible is one to one
and if we can't even get past that, like we're
gonna have a hard time. But stuff like movies and
TV shows and music help erode that away and make

(01:20:43):
people more amenable. So it's really for me the transformative
nature of the medium, which in this case is film.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
There's a story, Ryan, you share this publicly, so I
hope you don't mind if I bring it up. Worry
about Ryan breaking away from a flat earth philosophy growing up.
That really jumps out to me, wasn't it flat earth
that your dad had?

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
Was the fact that the moon landing was fake?

Speaker 3 (01:21:10):
Moon landing was fake?

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Moonland was it was faked?

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
Uh? And And like like the process of separating from
family belief. That story always stuck out to me from
from when you told it, even if I had the
the the action rod, but like that that idea that
you had this deeply held kind of family belief that
then you had to find your own way out of.
There's another story that comes to mind about how people

(01:21:36):
have been putting textbooks inside Minecraft for countries that don't
allow textbooks. So you can play Minecraft and like you
can unlock like certain worlds that allow you to research,
you know, find certain books, and they're they're passing literature
and things through in banned countries. And I think that's
the beauty of kind of cinema, if we're going to

(01:21:57):
talk about it in this lens, is you get the
better as the more movies you watch, you get the
benefit of like all the education that every screenwriter has
ever had. And you know, they might posit like a
certain idea and you're like, you don't even get it first,
and then you watch something three years later and you
have this moment of like, wait a minute, that's what
they were talking about. Oh hell yeah. Then you go

(01:22:19):
back and it sends you down a rabbit hole. So
you know, like it's it forces you to just like
see the world differently, right, which I think we all
we all need and needs to be a constant thing,
because the more we get stuck in what we already know,
we just become boring or we become republican.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Maybe it's a complacency thing, like being okay with complacency.
I don't know, Like filmmakers when they get complacent make
things like Ready Player one and Bridge of Spies like
they've become You've become complacent as a filmmaker. Yeah, you know,
And I think a lot of the consumption of media
in this day and age kind of relies on complacency

(01:23:00):
to rewatch the things you've seen a million times and
don't go watch anything new, because if you were to
go watch something new, it might actually challenge your preconceived
notions on things. And you know what's not going to
watching The Office for the fifth time all the way through.
It's not going to challenge anything. And I know people
don't want to be challenged all the time. But pushing
yourself to consume media that asks more of you as

(01:23:21):
a viewer is important for me. And I'm not saying
it should be important for everybody. But I think challenging
yourself while engaging with something on the level that it
wants to engage on it with you is important. And
that's why the three of us do what we do
collectively together right now but also separately in our creative endeavors,
because we want more people to engage with this creative

(01:23:44):
medium of film and it can literally change the way
you perceive religion, which again to my point from before
cave men were talking about hundreds of thousands of years
ago trying to explain why the sun was up in
the fucking sky, and they started concocting religion from that
question alone. Why does water run downhill? Why does the
sun rise in the morning and then the moon comes

(01:24:06):
up at night? Those were questions that had religious meaning
ascribed to them, and now has continued to create. I mean,
I'm not gonna say we have Joel osting because a
caveman asked why the sun is high in the sky,
But I mean there is a correlation that can be
drawn from point A to point you know, triple D
whatever it would be.

Speaker 3 (01:24:25):
Some would say he hasn't. That's the word evolved much
from the intelligence of the Caveman, but that's a separate discussion.
You know, we asked about foundational movies. This just reminds
me the way you phrase that, Hackson is probably a
really good one to bring into this as well. That
was That's one that I would point people to as well,
because even though it's a silent film, it's almost more

(01:24:47):
of like a documentary in a lot like a documentary
plus re enactment, and it questions a lot of the
views and like opinions on witchcraft throughout the ages. Obviously
religions tightly you know, associated with all the all of that,
so they're they're very tightly kind of connected. But that's
that came out before or Debt. So maybe Hackson is

(01:25:09):
the answer, right just from question number one. The more
I think about it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Well, as we talked about broadening everybody's horizons, let's get
to our fourth question here, because again, a lot of
what we want to do through the show, but specifically
through this conversation tonight, is to make you uh again,
make you feel inspired to check out something new that
you may not have chosen to before. So our fourth question,

(01:25:35):
as always is what is a cinematic bridge to our
topic in your mind. So basically, what is something that
if somebody's already interested in it would clue them into
the fact that they may be interested in watching these
types of films.

Speaker 3 (01:25:51):
I there's a movie that came out Bodies, Bodies, Bodies Amazing, Right, Yeah.
I think I'm going to use that as an example,
And it's a weird one to tie in, but I
think there's a way to watch that movie where you're
not really thinking too much about it and you're just
sort of being like, what the hell is happening? Like

(01:26:13):
the loud music and like people yelling all the time,
and it doesn't make sense, and you're kind of kind
of rejecting like what's on the screen because it just
doesn't fit into something you've seen before, like you know whatever.
And I think if you tend to watch movies like
that in that way of saying, you know, I don't

(01:26:35):
understand what's going on, I'm just gonna shut this down
and say this movie is dogshit and go write like
a three letter like a three word quip on letterboxed
about it. That's the opposite of kind of what we're
talking about here, right. I think we've talked about music
a little bit tonight. You know, there used to be
this thing in old CDs where you would it would
list out like similar bands, and it wouldn't say here's

(01:26:58):
similar bands, but it would say thing, thank you, and
it was a thank you to like twelve bands, and
then you could go on a rabbit hole, you know,
and go find those bands. And I think if you're
the kind of person that watches Bodies Bodies bodies and
wants to go learn about slasher movies and understand like
the commentary on slasher movies, or you listen to music
and you want to go understand the influence on that,

(01:27:18):
if you have that kind of curiosity, and you and
you want, and you and you're you know, you're open
to saying like not only what was immediately being said,
like on that kind of first level, but then go
a level down and being like what was this referring
to what was the influence on this? Why does this
movie exist? Like like what what led to like this

(01:27:39):
movie existing? To me, that's the cinematic bridge to get
down to being able, being able to be intellectually curious
enough about yourself to then go into a topic like
this and view other people's reaction to their experience with faith,
and they're things they liked and didn't like, and the

(01:28:00):
critiques and the things that you know, whatever, like kind
of to bring it all together into making like a
nuanced conversation. As as much as I've said that word tonight,
but that that's one thing for me, it's a good choice.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
It's also it's important to have nuanced conversation about many
of these things, So nothing wrong with that. The one
thing that's been in my mind all night, like since
since before we started recording is how much watching some
of these films to me now feels surreal. Which is
going to be my answer here is if you are

(01:28:35):
fans of surrealist films, if you're a Hooter asci fan,
if you are a fan of Boots Riley, there's so
many things that you can go, from some of the
oldest filmmakers to some of the newest filmmakers that if
you're a fan of some of these things that bridge
this weird, you know, connection between the real and the

(01:28:56):
fantasy and you get this weird, uncanny valley of a
film that you feel at home in. I bet you
would like a lot of these because it gives you
that sort of what is real, what is supernatural? What
is fantastical? Feeling as you're going through these and even
even you know the thing that we talked about like
Jesus Camp, where it's a literal non fiction documentary, to

(01:29:19):
many people that have never been in that situation, it
will feel surreal to watch the thing be like, what
the fuck this is crazy? So it's it feels sort
of demeaning to answer like this, and I mean it
with the ulmust respect. But if you are, if you're
somebody that likes surrealist films, I bet going down a

(01:29:40):
rabbit hole of controversial religious films will probably make you
feel a little fulfilled at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
Yep, mister statue, Well, the good answers were already taken,
so I don't know how to answer at this point.
Now I'm kidding, I think maybe to kind of tie
both of y'alls into mine. And again, not that my
answer is somehow more creative, but again I think it's

(01:30:08):
just that I'm walking down the same path that y'all are.
You just started a little earlier than I did. I
think in terms of like being willing to be open
to watching movies that on the face of it are
not what they seem. I mean, I don't know how
you would put that any other way than like someone
like a Terrence Malick or a Yodorowski or an Aronofski

(01:30:30):
or a Cronenberg or a Kubrick or a larzvon Trier.
So many of these directors are operating both fuck was
that shit? Oh did you scare yourself? Sorry? My cat
scared himself underneath my desk. Those filmmakers, they spend a

(01:30:52):
lot of time with the subtext in the movie and
making sure that you, as a film goer cans somewhat
engage with the subtext easily. But it's more for those
who are going to sit and rewatch the movie and
pick it apart and ask themselves what did that mean?
And not only what did it mean, but what is
the filmmaker trying to get at? And what are they

(01:31:14):
trying to convey to me? And what is the screenwriter
trying to convey to me? Because sometimes screenwriter and director
are not the same person more times often than not.
And again. Passion to the Christ is a movie that
is directed by Mel Gibson about the crucifixion and torture

(01:31:35):
of Jesus. It's not a movie I want to watch
for a number of reasons. I understand why other people
want to watch it and engage with it at the
level that it asks to engage with it. As an
audience member, I have no interest in that, but I
know plenty of people that do. And I know that
there is a part of certain people that are religious

(01:31:55):
that ask themselves what would that look like if I
got to see it? And I think that those are
the peace people that when we talk about this kind
of question and the kind of answer here, I think
if you're amenable to asking questions about what you're watching
in the intent behind it, yeah, you're going to find
something of value in controversial faith films of faith. But again,

(01:32:16):
they're controversial only because they're wanting to have a dialogue
about things that we should be having a dialogue about.
It's just it's an uncomfortable Nobody wants to have the
uncomfortable questions. That's why people don't go to therapy. That's
why people don't do a lot of things. That's why
people are in religion their entire lives, even if they're
gay and they don't want to ever come out because

(01:32:38):
they're afraid of all these terrible things happening, and a
lot of it's real and a lot of it's perceived.
But I think if you're the kind of person who's
willing to ask more of the things that you listen
or watch or engage with, so an active listener, I
think that these are the movies for you. But to
be fair, I think that you're already listening to this

(01:32:58):
if you're that person, because we're not engaging with films
on a surface level. I don't think any one of
us is on what we're doing here or what we're
doing separately, and so many people that's what they want,
and they kind of get put off by when they
listen to something like what you do, Ryan, or what
I do or you do, Chris, which is people engaging

(01:33:19):
with something in a way that's not just regurgitating the
goddamn movie. I can't tell you how many people I've
talked to that are like, I wish you would talk
more about the movie on the thing that you do,
and it's like, I'm not gonna tell you the plot
of the movie, like you should have come in with
it watched, or if you're not having it watched, this
is trying to sell you on it. So I'm not
gonna just tell you, beat for beat what happened in

(01:33:41):
the movie. I want you to engage with the movie
the way I'm engaging with it. And if you're not
able to do that yet, let's figure out if that's
something you actively are interested in. And if you're not,
don't tell me what I'm doing isn't what you like
because you weren't interested anyways, is my point. And so
that's the thing, Like, if you're gonna sit and watch here,
I'll do it. Ryan, You're welcome. If you're interested in

(01:34:02):
only watching MCU movies and that's the kind of stuff
that you watch, and you watch nothing else, and you're
not engaging with your media any deeper than that, these
movies are not going to be for you. But if
you want more from the things that you consume, these
movies will be for you. But I think that kind
of goes for any sort of controversial films in general.

Speaker 3 (01:34:23):
Yeah, I think it's very well said. You know, we're
in a culture right now that's actively banning books again, and.

Speaker 2 (01:34:30):
Fun, isn't it fun. I'm waiting for them to burn
them again. That's what I'm really waiting for.

Speaker 3 (01:34:34):
You right, and they they'll have different color armbands this time.
But it's just, you know, it's it's it's weird that
it's controversial now to be somebody who wants to learn,
and a lot of the books that they're banning, Like
I was talking to my wife about this yesterday. There's
a school district that's banning Where the Wild Things Are.

(01:34:56):
Literally how like there's nothing, there's barely any words in that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:01):
Book, Man and Beasts living Together. The Bible says it's
it's unclean, you know it. Yeah, man shall not lie
with beast.

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
It says it. You know. I want the world to
be a place where you, like, you read that and
then you make a decision or whether or not you're
into it. Right, That's like that's kind of it, right,
Like it's it's way simple. We make it so much
more complicated. Like if there's if there's a book that
has wild rape of something and you're not into rape,

(01:35:32):
like don't read that book, but don't ban it, like
like you know what I mean. Anyways, that's kind of
a weird example to use, But I.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Like to read that version of Where the Wild Things Are,
to be honest with you, boy, yeah, boy, where he's
he didn't live long enough to make that. That was
that's on the Ken Russell Unrealized Projects.

Speaker 3 (01:35:53):
Page the fan fiction Yeah all of a sudden.

Speaker 2 (01:35:59):
Yeah more, I want to find out how many of
them are cut by the end of it. I like that.
We've made that joke several times on this podcast, and
it wasn't just me doing it. Ryan did it on
an episode of the show a couple times ago, talking
about cut and uncut. What the fuck is going on?
Why is that? Why is that soaking getting mentioned in
this episode? That's not very Christian of us?

Speaker 3 (01:36:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:36:21):
Yes, if people are listening to this and think we're Christian, boy, God,
I got some swamp land in Florida to sell.

Speaker 3 (01:36:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
Anyways, this has been enlightening on multiple levels. Chris, you
are fantastic once again. Can you can you share where
people could find you on this wonderful internet that makes
people enraged enough to ban books?

Speaker 3 (01:36:46):
You know? Funny enough. I was just thinking about this today.
We've done everything wrong as far as promoting ourselves. So
right now we are wherever you podcast you can find
us through the wonderful Something Weird production. We have a
speaker page so if you're interested in going to spreaker
and searching, and they live by film. That's one way

(01:37:07):
to find this. Otherwise, wherever you podcast, we should be
there under they live by film. I mean someone's favorite productions.

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):
Wait, I was gonna you threw out something weird productions
and it's kind of kind of made a company.

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
Yeah, you just you just did it?

Speaker 3 (01:37:25):
Did it?

Speaker 2 (01:37:25):
There you go?

Speaker 3 (01:37:26):
I think Lisa might have something to say about it. Lisa,
someone's favorite productions we have? Yeah? No, I mean, you know,
I'm on Instagram and I think it's called personal history,
and I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:37:43):
On Reddit history of film, by the way.

Speaker 3 (01:37:45):
Personal history of film. Thank you. Reddit is where I
spend most of my time. Personal history of film.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:37:52):
You know, if you do a thrill on Reddit, view
to a thrill on Reddit, which was a name I
made thinking I was being clever making a Bond which
didn't aid.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
I thought it was funny.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:38:04):
Is that your favorite James Bond movie too?

Speaker 3 (01:38:07):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:38:08):
Well, now I'm disappointed. Speaking of nazis.

Speaker 3 (01:38:16):
It's easy. Yeah, but I spent a lot of my
time on Reddit and letterboxed under. That's where I write.
I used to write three hundred and fifty reviews a year.
It slowed down a lot. I might hit two hundred
this year if I push. But I like to write,

(01:38:36):
so I'm happy to chat with any of y'all that
that have made it this far, any ode and I
would like to engage. I'm always game.

Speaker 1 (01:38:46):
How about you, Nebraska, Chris, you want to share with us?

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
Nebraska? Gotta put the R at the end, buddy. Yeah,
you can find me at Weirdingwaymedia dot com where everything
I work on, other than the James Bond podcast that
we do month with Mike White and Richard had them
the three of us over on Patreon. Both mine and
Mike White's do a monthly Bond thing where we sit
and job James Bond for hour, hour and a half

(01:39:10):
depending on how long the conversation or the alcohol lasts.
And yeah, three can find all the things that I do.
What about you, Ryan Verel?

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
I am everywhere under the name The Disconnected. I've got
physical media on the brain at all times. If you'd like,
I've got a magazine you can check out called The
Physical Media Advocates, available on Amazon in both digital and
print versions, available in a handful of retail stores, but
beyond that just come hang out. I do a live
show every Thursday night, going over all the physical media announcements,
and we talked about movies for a spell. It's a

(01:39:41):
good time, just like tonight has been. Chris, you've been fantastic.
Other Chris, you've been pretty great as usual.

Speaker 2 (01:39:49):
This don't clarify which one either. That's the fun part.

Speaker 1 (01:39:52):
That was the boy. This conversation could have gone in
a lot of different directions, and if we said, hey,
there was an air and recording, let's do it again,
it would have ended up completely differently. And that's why
I love topics like this when we talk about micro genres.
I'm always excited to see where our conversation is going
to go. And it did not disappoint, so I think
he picked wonderfully. Thanks for coming on with us.

Speaker 3 (01:40:14):
Thank you over having me. What a fun conversation. I'm
great to spend some time with you.

Speaker 1 (01:40:18):
Well as usual, we hope you check out our next
episode and that you continue to push your boundaries of
your interests in film until next up.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Ruthie's Table 4

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Controversial Films of Faith with Chris Haskell: An Introduction to Wicker Man, The Exorcist

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Ruthie's Table 4

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Controversial Films of Faith with Chris Haskell: An Introduction to Wicker Man, The Exorcist

On Purpose with Jay Shetty