I'M BATMAN!! Film Foundations Franchise: An Introduction to Batman- LIVE SHOW REPLAY!!

This week's episode of Film Foundations is a replay of Chris and Ryan discussing the Batman franchise! This was recorded as part of Ryan's show called Re-Connected and this particular episode happened on May 9th, 2024. Do you agree? Disagree? Tell us in the comments!

To watch the entire episode of Re-Connected from May 9th: https://youtube.com/live/sEx7v0sOLak

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Film Foundations is a show co-produced by Weirding Way Media and Someone's Favorite Productions!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
It's time for our live episode.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Of Can I mention one thing though that we didn't
talk about. That was a big announcement today that I
know other people in the in the in the comments
we'll want to talk about or at least chime in on.
We are getting more Lord of the Rings movies.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
It's wild, yeah, and on top.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Of everything else, it's directed by motherfucking Andy Serkis, who
one of my friends on my Facebook. When I posted
about it, they were like, he's just trying to win
that oscar for a CGI actor. You're right, he fucking is,
and he should have won it. He should have won
it for that last Plan of the Apes Movies movie,
but he didn't win it there. So there's a high
percentage chance that this movie pushes that in the right direction.

(00:54):
But holy cow, holy cow, holy cow more Lord of
the Rings move movies with Peter Jackson and Philippa Boyans
and fran Jackson all like involved too, So it's crazy
crazy time. I mean the movie the TV show being
announced was crazy, but now a like live action movie

(01:16):
like holy Cow.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I love Andy Serkis. Andy Serkis is amazing. He
does not get enough credit for his mo cap abilities
and just him being an actor and a director. We
were talking about this earlier. He directed that second Venom movie,
which I enjoyed a fair amount. It's a silly movie,
but it's a fun silly movie. Yeah. No, if anybody's curious,

(01:39):
if you're a fan of Lord of the Rings, Lord
of the Rings Extended and Remastered will be in theaters
in June of this year. And I'm gonna throw this
out there. First Hobbit movies not bad. Second Hobbit movies okay,
third Hobbit movie. Oh, I mean, look that the best
part about those Hobbit movies casting Martin Freeman, his Bilbo.

(02:01):
He's so good as Bilbo. Like, he's so good as Bilbo.
He's kind of the one of the best things of
all of the Lord of the Rings. And as far
as I'm concerned, that might be a hot take. But
if you don't, at least find Martin Freeman charming as Bilbo,
and that can carry you through the first movie. It's
the first movie is fine. Beyond that is just the
second and third ones are just like a cgi fuck fest.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
I've not seen any of the Hobbit films yet.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I mean again, they're fine, but the more you watch them,
the less quality they are. It's gonna be a it's
gonna be a prequel, Sibner. By the way, it's gonna
take place in between well's I guess it's gonna flesh
out all the story from before the first movie where
they they elude. They talk about it in the book

(02:49):
they're looking for Gollam. So I'm excited. I'm personally very excited,
but also with a with a little bit of trepidation
given comments talking about the Hobbit movie, given I've seen
the Hobbit movies in theaters.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
So all right, are we ready for an episode of
Film Foundations attached to an episode of Reconnected.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
We're gonna do this live for everybody, and then we
won't release this.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
For months, but it'll be great and as it comes out,
So we are gonna go through everything and uh so
everybody can understand just in case you haven't heard any
of the first two episodes of Film Foundations, We're gonna
be very explanatory as we're going through here of the
format and how we're doing everything, and gonna do an

(03:36):
actual intro like it's a full episode and everything. So
if you've got questions, and if you've got opinions, we
definitely want to hear this as we go through.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
So we are gonna.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Start the episode and go from here. So hello everyone,
Welcome back to Film Foundations, the collaborative show between weirding
Way Media and Someone's Favorite Productions. I am your co
host Ryan Verrell from the disc Connect did in Someone's
Favorite Productions.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
And I'm your other hop ho host, boy host ho
ho host. I am your other co host Christashu from
weirding Way Media and the Culture Cast, and various other
terrible opinions people think I have on the Internet about movies.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
On this show, we will be asking and answering four
questions about a given topic that is surrounding either an actor, director,
micro genre, or, like tonight's topic, a franchise. Tonight, we
are discussing all of the Batman films. Our job is
to entice you to broaden your horizons on film, encourage
you to travel down film tangents and side roads that

(04:39):
you may have never traveled down otherwise. And Batman's interesting
because there's so many different eras, there's so many different
actors that have played him. This is one of those
things where we started the show to introduce people to
things they likely have never seen any of. But with this,
I think it's very easy to have only seen like
one iteration of Batman, and I never even heard a

(05:01):
lot of discourse on the others because they've kind of
been talked about so many times in the past that
people don't talk about them very much anymore. So we're
gonna do like a light intro to some of these,
We're going to discuss them, going to talk about some
of the history. And on that front, Chris, what's your
history with Batman?

Speaker 2 (05:17):
I think for me, Batman is up there, if not
for me one of my favorite superheroes. I mean, I
have this conversation comes up a lot in terms of
the MCU or d C and where you come down
on it. I think the MCU has I think that
the MCU and the DC, you know, DC and Marvel,

(05:39):
however you want to talk about it, just the comic
books themselves. You know, that tribalization that we see now
has kind of always been around. But I think Batman
was holding up superhero stuff along with Superman for so long,
and then Marvel took that from them in two thousand
and eight with Iron Man and have been doing it

(06:02):
better since then in terms of the ability to craft
a believable world. I mean, look, Marvel has kind of
fallen off too because they've they dug too deep to
quote Lord of the Rings. But I love Batman. I
mean Batman is my Yeah, Batman is my favorite superhero.
I mean, there's people in the conyn your mom's saying it.

(06:25):
I mean it's true. Batman is a He is a
lot of people's favorite.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
I was very fortunate to grow up in the early
nineties and having the Tim Burton films accompanied by Batman
the animated series is a magical way to start a
fascination with a character like.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Batman almost got him Baby, That's like fucking amazing that
episode of the show.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, this is this is gonna be special because Batman's
kind of been there for a long time.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Obviously.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
I look at Batman as somebody that I love because
I've always been fascinated with mysteries and detectives and so
things like your Columbo like we were talking about earlier,
or your Hardy Boys, or your Nancy Drew or Encyclopedia Brown.
I love that shit as a kid, and so many
of the Batman movies and the Batman TV show, especially

(07:21):
like the animated ones, that they've been able to really
flesh out some of these characters with.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
I've just truly loved the way that they've given.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Some of that detective feel, and I think finally they
nailed that with the Matt Reeves Batman. It finally feels
like an actual detective character. But the every iteration has
a lot of high points, there's definitely some low points
in there as well. This all truly starts because of
comic book's obviously way back in the thirties with detective comics,

(07:49):
and that leads to literally DC. That's where we get
DC from. But we really have to kind of start
this with the overarching TV show with Adam West and
Bert Ward from the sixties, which I loved it.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
It is so.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Campy and silly and so fun, and it's it's such
an interesting thing to look at because so many people
nowadays look at it as it's only silly and it's
just let's laugh at this, but like it's so it's
so pure camp when you watch it in the style
of let's make this a comic book show, that's exactly

(08:28):
how they went in on it, and it works. I mean,
Adam West running with the giant bomb off of a
pier is fucking hilarious in all of the best ways.
I really wish people would watch it and give it
to more appreciation because so many people just haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
And Adam West was almost cast as James Bond because
of how good he was as Batman. So that's also
a weird piece of trivia from the time. No Batman
sixty six is it is? It's I don't know, man,
like I'm with you, Like I could totally get someone
watching it today and being like, what the fuck am

(09:06):
I watching? But it's fun It doesn't take itself too seriously,
and it's funny too. As Stan kind of points out,
it's very funny, and that is a thing that I
wouldn't say. People necessarily now know Batman for being funny,
So you know, I get it. And that's the thing.
One of the movies we're going to talk about, I
contend is actually an attempt to recapture the tone of

(09:30):
sixty six Batman. But let's just say people didn't want that.
People didn't know how to deal with it. People weren't
sure how to receive it, and you may know what
I'm alluding to. I'll talk about it when we get
to it. But yeah, Batman and I saw it in
the comments too, which I do want to address the
usage of Batman has always been very interesting because to

(09:51):
some of the comments points, Batman is sometimes a superhero,
Batman is sometimes a detective. And for me and I
would would agree with the comments, I think Batman works
best when he's embracing the detective side of it, because
the superhero side of it is when all of a
sudden things start to blow up and we get these
like big world issues like justice or a crisis on

(10:13):
Infinite Earth's stuff like that, which are these you know,
big world involved things where Superman's there and Wonder Woman's
there and the Justice League is there. So yeah, like
it's weird because Batman, again, for all intents and purposes,
is a detective character, but then he had he is
injected into these bigger stories and he kind of loses
the detective part of it. And some of the movies

(10:35):
do the same thing to great or lesser effect as well.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
So I'm weird.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
My wish for Batman the entire time. I just wish
that somebody took Batman and took some of the smaller
comics that are beloved by people and make a standalone,
single run Batman live action movie out of it that
people can appreciate because it has an incredible story. I
mean give us, Like the Court of Owls run would

(11:04):
be incredible to see in a live action film, Hush
would be incredible to see in a live action film.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
It don't have to be three movies, but Hush would
be like or Or or The Batman, the Elseworld's Batman,
like Vampire Batman. Good give me that fucking inject that
shit into my veins.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
Man.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
I showed Long Halloween earlier.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
It would be incredible to see a proper live action
Long Halloween done. Yeah, Like, with enough money to put
into it that they're not expecting a franchise, but just
let's make a good movie like that would be incredible.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah. No. And again Stan's point about the character being
incredibly elastic. He is, and that's what makes Batman such
an interesting character because you can take him all over
the place and you can make him into what you want.
You can take away certain things. And I'm not saying
all characters like that. In comic books aren't incredibly elastic,
as Stan mentioned, but Batman seems to move within genre

(11:59):
zeri easily compared to some of the other ones. I mean,
you don't see like a superhero. Well, I guess there's
Superman versus Alien, Superman versus Predator, but those always felt
weird like Batman versus Alien is That comic is certifiably
fucking insane and if you've never read it, you should
go check it out. And then they did I think
at least one more, possibly two more. But in the

(12:22):
second one they start breeding the aliens with DNA from
the rogues gallery of Batman's people, so there's like a
Joker alien and a two face alien and it's ridiculous.
But again, it works because Batman, I think, has always
been not horror adjacent, but because of what you expect
from his stories. It always feels like the horror world

(12:43):
is always just touching Batman because of Killer Croc, because
of Scarecrow, because his villains are monsters for the most part,
like a lot of them are literally monsters. So yeah,
I love Batman.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
After Batman sixty six and the TV show, we had
a a bit of a break. It wasn't until nineteen
eighty nine that we got Tim Burton's Batman, and it completely,
like really busted open the whole superhero thing in a
way that was super accessible for everybody. Incredible cast. Nicholson
is great, Taffedo is amazing. The really important thing, though,

(13:20):
is because it's Burton, you get a character in Gotham,
it feels like Gotham. And then of course you get
Keaton as Batman, which is the iconic thing. A lot
of us grew up on Keaton playing Batman. How do
you feel about Burton's Batman?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Uh? I reserve my answer for later. See that's the
thing though, like, here's the thing that I get gets
lost in the conversation. Go back and look at the
reception to Michael Keaton being cast as Batman. People went
fucking nuts. And I'm not saying they were happy. It
was like the backlash of backlashes they were. People were

(14:01):
writing into starlog about how pissed off they were that
Michael Keaton, a short guy, was cast as Batman. I mean, yeah,
it's insanity for how good those movies end up being. Yeah,
Batman nineteen eighty nine, Like I said, I don't want
to give too much away, but it might be an
answer here.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Devido wasn't in that first one. I know, I brought
him up. He is in the next one, which is
also directed by Tim Burton. That's Batman Returns. And then
we get Michelle Pfiffer's Catwoman in that one, which did
fairly well.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
And then of.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Course, just logically, that has to lead to Batman Forever,
which a lot of people are very used to throwing
darts at because they don't love it very much. Not
quite as bad as Batman and Robin, but yeah, a
lot of people hated these. These are these are the
ones that I grew up on. I watched these probably

(14:50):
more than any of these other Batman movies because I
was the right age. I was like ten years old
when these were coming out, and just loved seeing the
character I loved on the big screen and seeing it
played in a movie like that. And then, of course
around this time, because the animated series, we also get
the animated masterpiece. In my opinion of Batman maskt phantasm.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh yeah, hell yeah, Batman Forever is fucking great. Like
I get it. I get that people don't vibe with it,
but it came out in the nineties, yo like like
and you know what, Actually the best thing about Batman
Forever is the story that Jim Carrey tells about how
much Dobby Lee Jones hates him, which I do. I forget,
I don't tolerate your tomfoolery or whatever, something to that effect.

(15:34):
And it's like, oh man, this must have been a
weird set. But hey, speaking of dodging a bullet with
Bill Murray not being cast in eighty nine's Batman, talk
about dodging a bullet with Billy Baldwin being Batman Forever's
Batman good Night. I don't dislike Batman Forever. I get it, though,
I get the dislike. But to your point, I was

(15:55):
the right age. I was like five years old when
it came out. They had toys at McDonald's. They had
those cups at McDonald's, those glass cups at McDonald's. Yeah,
Batman was inescapable in the nineties.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
I will say the nineties was Batman like. It was
the decade of Batman for sure. And then because those
were like I mean, obviously they started great and then
it's waned by the end, we got no Batman for
a little while. Again, it's another eight year break, and
then Christopher freakin' Nolan comes in and makes a trilogy

(16:28):
of Batman films with Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, and
The Dark Knight Rises. There are countless people that look
at The Dark Knight as literally the the quintessential comic
book movie, which I know that we're going to be
getting into in a little while because I know at
least one of us disagrees with that. And of course,
around all of this, Christopher Nolan is not known for

(16:50):
a franchise type of film like this, so that this
was an odd time for him and odd time for
fans of his. I still think it's, you know, interesting
that he made a couple of but I mean, his
best movie was made during that period, but it wasn't
one of those movies. I still think he should have
stayed a little bit away. But then we get the

(17:10):
brand new DCEU stuff. We get Batman Versus Superman, Justice League,
Zack Snyder's Justice League version where they changed it up,
and then he was just in the flash last year, right.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Zack Snyder's Justice League is where they turned the movie
that was two hours into four hours. That's what they did,
and I watched the whole damn thing and did a
live stream about it, and then I had comments on
my iTunes about how I'm a hater for Batman versus Superman,
Justice whatever. Zack Snyder, you know what good for you
that people are willing to go out on a ledge
for you on the internet and are willing to make

(17:44):
their opinions so well known that they're gonna walk around
and scream Snyder, cut now, but god, insufferable bullshit. Frankly, like,
I'm sorry. It started an uncomfortable trend of things that
I don't really like, and I think you would agree,
which is pandering and allowing people to do things that's

(18:05):
like the world is not better off with or without this,
It doesn't really matter. And yeah, the Prestige, I think, yeah,
Nolan peaked early Baby. Prestige is an amazing even at
look Ryan already alluded to it. I'm not the biggest
fan of Chris Nolan, but the Prestige, how could you
not love that movie?

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Really, it's his best film.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Five Flour agreed, And to Paul's point, the four hour
Justice League is somehow actually better than the two hour
Justice League.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
The last thing that we can really talk about. We
did get a brand new Matt Reeves directed Batman in
March of twenty twenty two. There is a second one
coming in October of twenty twenty six. Currently that's when
it's dated. I that's a long wait, first of all,
and then also, I guess technically in Joker, Bruce Wayne
is mentioned and hinted at, but it's not a Batman

(18:58):
movie in any way, but that those are the theatrical
Batman's that we've gotten throughout the years, and it's been
such it's been such an up and down ride for
a lot of people that a lot of people have
checked out. And so that's kind of why we want
to talk about it. I feel like it's a good
one for the chat to, you know, step in here.
So we're gonna get into our questions. The first question

(19:20):
on film foundations is always what do you consider the
foundational title for our topic tonight, which is Batman? And
so essentially, what do you think if somebody has never
seen any Batman movie, what do you think is the
first one that they should watch?

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Chris, Wow, you're just gonna put me on the spot.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Ah on the spot, Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, I deserve it, I mean, because I don't know. Again,
this is this is polarizing, but uh yeah, I'm gonna
go with Batman nineteen eighty nine all the way. And
you know what, I've never seen Batman returns. It's on
my list of things to watch. I'm watching it later
this year in September. Uh for you've never seen September.

(20:01):
So we are, we're finally getting around to it. I
am but man, Michael Keaton is Batman just he's amazing.
Jack Nicholson's amazing. Everything about the movie is well thought out.
I mean, they had the right director at the right time,
doing the right thing, making the kind of movie that
needed to come out then. But at the same time,

(20:24):
it's it's a starting place for Batman that gets through
all the stuff. For those of you that have never
seen it as well, that's the thing that has to
be taken into consideration here. I can't in good conscience
suggest the second movie in a trilogy as the foundational film,
because that's yeah. I know you might, but in my mind,
that's that doesn't make sense, you know what I mean,

(20:46):
That's what I'm getting at. No, Ryan's leading the discussion,
not me.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Similar This is kind of the point we are No,
it's okay, it's okay.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
We want a gatekeep right, isn't that the point of this?
I'm just kidding. Oh wait, is this a gatekeeping showy?
I know that's yes.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
You haven't watched all of them, Like I haven't seen
any of the DCEU ones, but I have a feeling
those weren't gonna be answers for any of these.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Uh what if they were? Though?

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Never?

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Ah see, Yeah, I get it. I mean, look, I
understand the the I understand that sentiment, and I don't
think that you have an inappropriate opinion saying you guys
are talking about this and you've never seen Returns. I
literally just explained to you I'm watching Returns later this
year because someone asked me to watch it for a
month for them. So let me reiterate, at the end
of the day, if I've never seen Batman Returns, that's

(21:37):
fine because at the end of the day, I love
Batman nineteen eighty nine. It doesn't detract from my love
of that movie. And at the same time, to answer
the question you asked, Batman nineteen eighty nine does the
origin story, It does the villain of Batman that everybody knows. Look,
I'm not gonna say done the best, because I think
Keith Ledger is the best version of the Joker. But

(22:00):
Jack Nicholson's amazing in that movie. For what is needed
for that movie. The tone of that movie is needed
to be a Jack Nicholson type because again, like it's
a very much an elevated tone and it's a comic
book brought to life. I mean, that's the thing that
I love about the movie is that it's a comic
book brought to life and you can see that on

(22:21):
the screen. So yeah, I love Batman nineteen eighty nine.
That's my choice here.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Before I get into Batman nineteen eighty nine, I do say,
I do want to say that when you watch Batman Returns,
I'm very curious to see what you think, because it
is it's a Christmas movie. Yeah, it's got Honestly, like
what they do with Michelle Pfeiffer is amazing in that movie.
Some of the way that they I mean, it's Tim Burton,

(22:48):
so he knows how to capture people in a way
that feels larger than life.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
Obviously.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Oh yeah, everything that he's done. So yeah, I think
you'll you'll really like it. I think that you have
a pick and I couldn't really argue with it. I
think it is a very still beloved title in the
entire franchise. I think it's one that a lot of people,
you know, base their love on this character of simply

(23:13):
from this movie. I think it's a great title. My
my pick. I've already alluded to it. I I will say,
I think The Dark Knight is the best one for
somebody to watch first, and it's it's interesting to make
that as a choice because it is the second and
it's not an origin story, and I get that, But
my argument against that is I think the Batman origin
it's just kind of zeitgeist knowledge at this point.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Like everybody at this point though, Yeah, and that's that's
what no I know, right right exactly, Like to your
point though, like it's a fair answer, because like you said,
it's it's like, look, it's the same fucking thing with
Spider Man. They don't have to show the Spider Man
origin story anymore, guys, Like, we're good unless you're doing

(23:56):
like Miles Morales or when it's a twenty different nine.
Yeah exactly. But if look, I only say like I say,
it covers the origin of Batman. I think it covers
it in the most straightforward, obvious way. I mean, to
your point, twenty twenty two's Batman doesn't do it either.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, you're right, it is something that people are Yeah,
it's divisive.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
I totally get that.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Sibbonner says, are we talking best film or for someone
not knowledgeable to understand the story? If you don't do
the origin for that person, they won't get it. And
that's why I just defended that. First off, we're not
answering what is the best film or for someone not
knowledgeable to understand the story here, because the origin is
literally just like public knowledge at this point.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
Well, but part of it is is making it the
most approachable thing. That is what we're getting at, honestly,
sibn Er, You'll what you'll realize very quickly is our
second answer is often our favorite thing. That it's kind of,
you know, our second favorite.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
The second answer is usually the most interesting part of
the conversation. So yeah, we will be discussing that one soon.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
The Dark Knight.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
I don't want to say too much about it because
I know it's something that is overly discussed. I don't
think it's a perfect movie. I think it's a very
great movie. I think that Heath Ledger is probably the
best visage of a villain that we're ever going to
see on screen for a Batman story.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
Probably.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
I think it's great that we also get a probably
the best version of two face in any of these movies,
you know, unless we start talking about the animated, which
is very different of course.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Mean you like him better than Tommy Lee Jones, Yeah,
I do. I think Tommy Lee Jones fits the tone
of Batman Forever just fine.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
He does, He absolutely fits it.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
But yeah, I mean, I honestly find The Dark Knight's
usage of two Face to be kind of an afterthought
me personally. But I get where you're coming from. I
totally get it. Like The Dark Knight is a movie
that I have a very weird history with, that being
I loved it when it came out, and since then
it has depreciated in value to the point where I

(26:11):
don't even want to watch it anymore. Like Heath Ledger's great,
and that's kind of where I leave it. Like Sibner
is Sibner and I I think are on the same
page because I get it, Like Dark Knight. I understand
it's appeal. I understand why people like it. Like I said,
I loved it when it came out. I literally went
saw it opening night at midnight with my friends. I

(26:35):
get it, like we all a lot of us got
swept up in the excitement of Batman and that was
a big deal, especially like for what it was being
advertised as the fact that it was Heath Ledger. But yeah,
like for me, Dark Knight, I mean, you said it best,
like Chris Nolan had no right being around this franchise.
And you know what, they're great movies, but are they

(26:55):
great Batman movies? That's the question I always put to anybody,
is like, they're great movies, well made, well shot, whatever.
But is The Dark Knight a good movie in terms
of what the genre it's in is. I mean, I
don't know, it's going to vary from person to person.
The Dark Knight for me is a movie, Like I said,
loved it when it came out. It's kind of depreciated

(27:16):
a little bit since. But I totally understand why people
like it because it is a good, well made movie
and has a great performance at the center of it
with Heath Ledger.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
I do think The Dark Knight is a lot more
than Heath Ledger. I want to point out a couple
other small things. I think that this movie is paced
very very well. It kind of goes and doesn't really
slow down. And there are some of these other entries,
there are some meandering points in some of them, And
to be quite honest, I think that's my biggest problem
with the other two Nolan films. I think Batman Begins

(27:46):
and The Dark Knight Rises have some dull periods that
are really difficult to overlook completely.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
The aw where would you where would you rank them?
Those three?

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Just those three, I would probably say The Dark Knight
is better than Batman Begins, is better than Dark Knight Rises.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
So two, one, three, two and three Yeah, yeah, man,
it's hard to defend that third movie. And to Simner's point,
the second movie has a lot of weird stuff that
people forget, like the whole Tokyo side plot. The climax
of that movie is like Chris Nolan doesn't know how
to shoot a climax of a movie like this, right, Like,

(28:27):
that's what we found out with these movies is he
has no idea how to film actions, so he just
fucking doesn't. Is that what it is? Like that Dark
Knight Rises climax is pretty bad, right, Like Tom Hardy's
the whole thing with Baine and the way Baine is treated.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
It's just it's real bad.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeahah, but in a lot of ways, like The Dark
Knight is the same, it just kind of gets away
with it, Like it just kind of gets away with
it because it's a good movie. Dark Knight Rises is
not a great movie.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think the Dark Knight has as of just a
far better script.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
That's the biggest thing, right, Sure, I agree with you there,
and I actually have a soft spot for Batman Begins,
to be perfectly honest with you. Yeah, the stuff with
the boats and the sonar spy stuff is just like
that's a slog. It's so seen as amazing in anything
but Batman.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
I disagreeful, I.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Know, but that's why you picked. It's my point, like
we just have two different minds here of what we're
wanting from this kind of movie.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well, that and we do have some questions about like
what this first question is. So I do want to
explain again for Signer and for everybody watching that this
is not about best movie or anything. What we got
to do is put our mindset into somebody who's never
seen any of these. And so one of the reasons
I picked The Dark Knight is because it it kind
of kicked off this modern mentality that we have about

(29:46):
comic book movies. And so that's why I think right
now it is the most approachable, because because of Nolan
is why we have the super dark. Everything has to
be gritty, fucking dark ass comic book no happiness movies.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Can I say though, And we talked about this pre recording,
so this is a little bit of a not pre
rehearsed but I'm actually gonna counterpoint there to that because
I really detest what Chris Nolan did for big budget
movies for like a decade, which was everything had to
be grim dark and serious. Oh yeah, I'm including fucking

(30:22):
James Bond. Of all the goddamn things in the world.
You turned James Bond grim dark and serious. I mean,
that's fine. I like Daniel Craig, but those James Bond movies,
similarly to these Batman movies, the Nolan ones, you take
the James Bond name out of it, it could be anybody. Really.

(30:43):
Batman's a little different because you have a guy dressed
up like a bat I mean, look, I would put
The Dark Knight in my top five Batman movies. But like, okay,
so what right? I'm with you? Like, I think either
of our entry points are a good one if you're
if you have different expectations. And yes, Casina Reale is
a damn near perfect movie. But it's the exception that
proves the rule, because we all know how good specter is.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
Right, I don't.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
I know you don't. You've made it, You've made it
a life choice to stay away from James Bond movies.
We'll never see a James Bond film Foundations. I guess
it'll be led by me primarily, I'm assuming because you
have Have you seen any James Bond movies?

Speaker 1 (31:26):
I have, and I already said we should, but we
should break it out into an episode for each action.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Oh yeah, Timothy Dalton two movies.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Okay, maybe we throw that in with something else.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Yeah, George Lasenby one movie.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
So again, the way that we have to approach this
first question always is is not just like what do
we think is great or what do we think whatever?
It's more about like approaching it for other people who
have not seen any of these, so this one agreed.
I think that Nolan did kind of screw up here
that it's it's this awkward ass, let me make these

(32:00):
super dark movies that he probably shouldn't have been making
to begin with. But he changed modern cinema, There's no
doubt about that. The way that he made these movies
has changed the way that the mainstream looks at these films.
And so somebody out there that somehow never seen a
Batman movie, I think you're very likely to enjoy The
Dark Knight because you've probably been catered to with these

(32:23):
new style films over the last How long has it
been since The Dark Knight? Sixteen years?

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Like there's oh since The Dark Night, since Batman begins,
it's been almost twenty years. Yeah, that's insane, fucking nuts.
It's twenty years next year.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
So yeah, I think that The Dark Knight is a great,
great first entry. You see some incredible conversations in this movie.
I think that the tension through some of those conversations
is really well done.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah. I like The Dark Knight.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
It's not my favorite Batman movie, but I do think
it's the best entry point. But again, as Chris and
I talked about I think the second question usually leads
to our best discussion. So Chris, could you recommend a
lesser known film within our topic? And uh, usually this
is like, hey, this probably wouldn't be great as a
first time watch into our topic, but maybe one that

(33:13):
if somebody were to watch it first, it may even
turn them away from the rest of it.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
So, Chris, what is your choice for question two?

Speaker 2 (33:21):
I'm not gonna be uncontroversial here. I mean, this is
a pretty uncontroversial pick. I'm gonna go with The Batman
from twenty twenty two. I mean I could completely understand,
and I have talked to a lot of people. It
took me up until this year to watch it. It's
two years now, because the amount of people I had
heard tell me it was boring and long and da

(33:44):
da da da da da da was I mean it
was an arm's length of people. Tons of people told
me how boring it was, and I was like, Okay,
maybe maybe it is. I'm not gonna put it my
top a list of things to watch. Watched it this
year and my god, I mean, Robert Pattinson. Look, I've
been a Robert Pattinson Defender for a while when they

(34:05):
were like, he's gonna be cast as Batman, I was like,
hell yeah, I know. People were like, it's the guy
from Twilight. It's like, you know, Kristen Stewart was in
that movie too, and she's a great actress, and those
like you can't blame Robert Pattinson and Kristin Stewart for
wanting to have a nest egg for the rest of
their lives. So, and I understand the Mask of the
Phantasm being an answer here that a lot of people

(34:26):
would probably go with. And I'm not saying I don't
like the Mask of the Phantasm. It's just I think
The Batman builds on what you were talking about with
the Dark Knight, which is taking it seriously but then
pulling it back into the idea of he's a detective.
Because that's the thing about the Batman from twenty twenty two.
He's a detective. It's like the first time in live

(34:50):
action Batman movies he has actually felt like a detective
within the scope of the movie, and what the movie's
asking of him is to be a detective. It's essentially
Batman versus the Zodiac Killer. In a lot of ways
like that's kind of where that movie is drawing from.
It's very seven adjacent. So that's why I wouldn't suggest

(35:11):
it as anyone's first thing, because a it is a
very long movie. It's almost three hours long, which I
know some people will bristle at. I don't, you don't.
But at the end of the day, I think Pattinson
makes a case for being Batman for a lot more
people than anybody else has up until this point, because
he makes the character his own, and he also does
a good Bruce Wayne that I hadn't. We haven't really

(35:33):
seen that kind of Bruce Wayne either, so that's the
other thing we haven't really talked about. Some actors play
a better Bruce Wayne than they do Batman. I think
Christian Bale's better Bruce Wayne than he is Batman. I
think that whole that voice thing though, Rachel, where is she? Oh? Oh,
oh my lord? What a I mean? It's funny. I

(35:54):
know it's not supposed to be funny, but it's kind
of it's kind of goof, it's can't be uninten mentionally,
and The Batman twenty two twenty twenty two has some
of those lighter moments but has a great cast, has
Jeffrey Wright, Andy Serkis.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
And Jack Patton Jeffrey right this time?

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, Paul Dano, I mean it has. I mean, I'm
sure I'm forgetting people, but jeez, Colin Ferrell right, well,
so many people I have talked to didn't know it
was Colin Farrell, which is just like the greatest thing
about that makeup is that he is under it but
not lost in it.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
So I was actually going to ask this question after
my answer for second the second question, but may as
well get over here now because you just brought it up.
What is your favorite Batman? And what is your favorite
Bruce Wayne? Like, who's your favorite actor playing Batman? Who's
your favorite actor playing Bruce Wayne?

Speaker 2 (36:48):
My favorite? I would say my favorite Batman is Robert
Pattinson's Batman and my favorite Bruce Wayne as Wow. See,
I don't I don't think Christian Bale is not turning
it up. I think Christian Bale is pretty great as
Bruce Wayne. But I mean there is that line from

(37:13):
Keaton you want to get nuts, Let's get nuts, and
that's fucking Bruce Wayne. So yeah, I'm gonna have to
go with uh, I'm gonna have to go with with
Michael Keaton for for Bruce Wayne. But I don't think
val Kilmer is a bad choice either, because val Kilmer
is really good. Like that's the thing. Frankly, Batman Forever
doesn't get enough love. We haven't talked about it enough.
It's a movie that, Yeah, I don't know, it's so

(37:35):
nineties it hurts. It's got Kiss from a Rose by
Seal in it, for fuck's sake. But man, I yeah,
I think for the most part, there's not any really
bad Batman movies. And yes, I have seen Batman dead End.
I believe Batman dead End is that the the is
that the fan film that has the xenomorphin in it

(37:56):
at the end. Correct me if I'm wrong. I remember
seeing it at Comic Con on TVs that had VHS
players built into him. People were trying to sell bootleg
VHS's of the short film. If that's the right thing,
Stand and tell me if I'm wrong. But look, I
don't think there's any wrong answer here. I don't think
anybody couldn't. I think, well, I don't think George Clooney's Yeah,

(38:20):
I don't think George Clooney's Again, I think Clooney is
the Batman for some people, to the point that they
brought him back. So I look, frankly, I don't think
there's an indefensible answer other than Ben Affleck.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Sorry, but I don't.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Think anybody's gonna defend Batman versus Superman, Justice League or
any I mean those, I don't know if anyone's going
to outright be like pen afflex my Batman. Like, I've
never heard anybody say that, maybe I'm nuts, but maybe
that person's gonna comment and tell us. But that's not
something I've heard a lot of people go out on
a limb for, but everybody else most every other Batman

(38:58):
gets a defense from some as their favorite.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
So the way I have to answer this, first of all,
as I have to put the qualifier that I can
only talk about live action, because if we're talking about animated,
Kevin Conroy will be Batman until the day I die.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right, Like, that's not even fair. It's like saying who's
the best joker, it's Mark fucking hammil dug right.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
But I'm kind of surprised that you said Pattinson. That
is also my pick for Batman. I think he is
a very great Batman, and I think I'm I'm mostly
impressed obviously with the detective side. We've already talked about
that a bit. But one of the other things that
is a big deal for me is they show that
he is like discovering this side of him. He fucks up,

(39:38):
He's not somebody that is perfect, and they like they
never would have allowed George Clooney to mess up and
hit a bridge or something like that. It was it
just would not have been possible.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
I do.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
I do admit I was really close to saying Michael
Keaton as well for this, but I do think that
I'm gonna go with Christian Bale. I think he's a
really great, like very suave type of Bruce Wayne, which
we needed. And the bigger thing is he is. The
way that he is so dedicated to that role in

(40:10):
those three movies, I love absolutely and and he you know,
all in with the way that he works out and
he's logical and he thinks smart and all of that.
I just don't think he's a very good Batman. I
really don't love his Batman at.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
All, because it was never about Batman for Chris Nolan.
That's the problem, Like it just doesn't. Chris Nolan wasn't
interested in making a Batman movie. He was interested in
deconstructing the superhero myth and they were just like, hey,
bat you Batman. It's like, okay, so yeah, I mean
aflex Afflex Batman is the most physically imposing Batman because

(40:48):
he like the physicality that Ben Afflex Batman brings. In
Justice League, not Justice League, but Batman versus Superman. There's
that scene in the warehouse that's pretty great, Like, I'll
concede that. But man, Ben Affleck couldn't seem less fucking
interested the longer those movies go on, to the point
where he himself was like, I don't fucking care. I
don't want to keep doing this like, which is why

(41:09):
they literally brought somebody else in to end the DCEUS
version of Batman. They literally went, hey, Michael Keaton, right,
because here's the thing you didn't mention. The Flash is
technically a Batman movie too, Michael Keaton, Batman. It's a
I don't know how many of y'all have seen The Flash.
There's some cgi in that movie that is wow. There's

(41:33):
like a zootrope scene that they keep using over and
over and I was convinced that that was Previz, Like,
it's not Previz though it is. That is the way
the film was released and scene, Yeah, it's it's crazy
to me, but yeah, the flash he's not going to
show up here other than in passing hot pile of coca. Yeah.
I mean, look, they brought Michael Keaton back, but to

(41:59):
what end?

Speaker 1 (42:00):
I guess, right, well, to end the DCEU basically right.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, and again like they tried to shoehorn a Batman
movie into a flash movie. Guess you guys have a
lot of faith in your flash movie then, huh, like
so so bizarre.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
So to finish up what started as a as an
answer to the second question for you for a long
time ago, I will say this was very close to
being my answer as well. I truly loved the twenty
twenty two Batman. I genuinely a five star film for me.
I appreciate one of the other big things. I guess
you know, we've talked about him screwing up, We've talked

(42:37):
about his detective work. I love the way they started
this film too, the fact that criminals are actually scared
of the night time and that like that's a huge
part of the lore of Batman. People are actually afraid
to be out when his light is in the sky
like that. That's a big deal, and they really nailed
it for that movie. I truly loved the way that

(42:58):
they took Colin Ferrell's care and made it this larger
than life being. I think the stuff they did with
Paul Dana was great. The only thing I didn't love
I think this movie has two or three different endings,
and none of them are good. None of the endings
for this movie are well thought out, none of them
come together. I feel like they probably should have meld

(43:19):
it all two and a half of them together to
find something sort of cohesive. But other than that, I
think this is a pretty great movie. I do understand
the length being a problem, and that's partially because of
the third act that is like two and a half
acts long just for that third act.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Right, Yeah, I mean again, we already talked about Dark
Knight in the way that movie ends. The Batman twenty
twenty two has a similar ending problem of just like,
what do we do here? I'm curious to see what
the next one is because I hope they like what
Batman movie doesn't have a kind of a problematic third act.
The original Batman eighty nine is pretty great.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
It's pretty great.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yeah, like Batman returns can't speak to that. Everything else
kind of I mean live action. Their third acts are
kind of all over the place, I mean.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, And Stanson the Stan says the length is no
problem for me. The length itself is not the problem
for me. It's the fact that I don't feel like
they stick the landing. You got to justify that length,
and I think that they they let that go ever
so slightly with the like the fake out ending that they.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Have there and not everything needs to be returned to
the king, like three Brendings for fuck's sake.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Like so the second question, uh, my my pick for
this one. Funny enough, I didn't even mean to do this.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
I meant to read out all of the titles and
I skipped over one. And it's the one that I'm
picking for this one.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
I was about to say, you didn't mention the one
that I was like, this is gonna be his pick.
He didn't mention it.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
My my pick for like an underseen one, one that
it would be weird to watch as your first entry
into all this. I got to show some love right
now for the Lego Batman. Uh, this movie is so
much better than it has any right to be. I
I believe it was like two years ago on one
of the streams with Flip on this channel, I was

(45:05):
discussing all of the ranked Batman movies and this was
like number five on my list of all of the
Batman movies.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
This movie is incredible.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
The comedy is great, the way that the set design
is because it's all legos, It's filmed in a lot
of scenes. No no no, I never said animated it
was off limits. No no no, I said to answer
who was the best Batman? That means I would have
to say animated is off limits. Lego Batman is up
there as one of the greats by far.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
This movie.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
It's it's filmed in a way that gives me like Batman,
the animated series vibes and the voice acting is incredible.
But the biggest thing, like if you are a fan
of Batman, this movie is gonna pay off in space
because there's references to everything in this movie. You're gonna
get so many like never talked about before Villain's discussed.

(45:56):
You're gonna get all of the costumes made fun of
you're gonna get mention of bat nipples. You're gonna get
like everything under the Sun.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Is a part Credit Cards, is fite Man everything.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
It's so well made and thought out, and you can
tell like this is one of those movies that could
have been very patronizing, but instead it was very obviously
just made by people who loved Batman to death and
grew up with it, and like, yeah, the first Lego
movie is great. This I think is by far the
best Lego movie that they've made, Like, hands down, head

(46:34):
and shoulders above any of them by far. But yeah,
I do think because of those references and all of
those other jokes that you're not gonna understand this would
be a pretty poor choice to watch as your first
for ray into Batman, because you gotta understand all of
those other references to really appreciate this one. If you've
never seen it and you've seen many other Batman movies,

(46:57):
go check out Lego Batman. I don't know if you
know we got many people watching that don't check out
animated stuff because it's for kids or whatever. I know
there's a lot of people on like film Twitter that
think like that the Lego Batman Movie is a freaking
amazing movie. Like, this movie is underseen and should be
high up on everybody's list because it is a damn

(47:18):
your Master.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
And produced by Lord and Miller. So you, Lord and
Miller are two of my favorite filmmakers right now because
they understand the assignment every time they're brought on I mean,
spider Man into the Spider Verse for a foxs sake.
I mean you mentioned the Lego movie. Lego movie is
no slouch of it. Oh yeah, It's like Lego Batman
Movie doesn't exist without Lego the Lego Movie. Yeah, no,

(47:43):
I'm a I'm a huge fan of the Lego movie.
I haven't seen the Lego Batman Movie enough. I did
see it in theaters when it came out, and I mean, look,
Will Arnette is Batman is inspired casting. I mean, obviously
he was in the Lego movie as Batman, but the
fact that they kept it and continued to roll with
it is just And then Galifanakis and I think my

(48:05):
favorite character in the movie is Kate mccouchi as Clayface,
which is the funniest casting in the entire movie. Kate mccouchy.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Everybody this thing again, if you like start to look
at all of the the actors that are in this,
you start to find some that are really funny. I mean,
even like freaking Michael Sarah as Robin is really great.
It is a very inspired casting because his deadpan, like
stupid voice that people hate from everything else because he's

(48:35):
always the same character really works as Robin in this movie.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
And I'm honestly surprised we never got Ray Fines cast
as Alfred, but this makes up for it. Yeah you
could see. I mean you honestly, it's either Andy Serkis
or Ray Fines for Batman twenty twenty two, right, like,
you have those two choices. As far as I'm concerned.
They went with Andy Serkis, but Ray Fines would have
been just as great of a choice and would have worked.
I mean, he's amazing in like Batman. It's pitch perfect casting.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
So yeah, there's a lot of names in this. Mariah
Carey is in it, Ellie Kemper's in this, Jenny Slate,
Channing Tatum, Adam Devine, just tons and tons of people.
It's it's a riot start to finish. One of my
favorites completely from this franchise, but now, like this is
this next question I feel like is going to go

(49:24):
into so many different directions. Our third question always what
is the biggest impact that our topic has had on
pop culture? Now again, if you have not listened to
Film Foundations before, what we mean by this is it
doesn't have to be a certain film. It can be
something philosophical. It can be something like inspiring future filmmakers

(49:45):
to do X. It can be increasing awareness on X.
It can be a film. It can say, you know,
The Dark Knight changed comic book movies for all of
the future. Obviously, this is a very subjective question, but
it's literally all about just interesting conversations. So what do
you think is the biggest pop culture impact from all

(50:07):
of Batman?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I want to know where all these people are doing
X and how we can get in on that. There's
like on X, it's like whoa man, everybody's doing X.
That's you know in the comments that I mean, they're
already getting to it, Like this is a massive beast
to wrangle here. Yeah, uh, this is I mean, to
get to this point in this conversation is going to
be difficult to answer because like you've like you've already

(50:32):
mentioned like this is all encompassing in a lot of ways.
I mean, look, Superman is like that's in a lot
of ways, like that is where the superhero genre got
really elevated in terms of like the big budget and
the visibility. But I mean, I'm pretty sure as far
as I can tell, I'm concerned. As far as I

(50:55):
would make this argument, Batman is like the superhero. He's
the one that's been evergreen forever. I mean, we've had
Batman in the eighties, we've had him in the nineties,
we've had him in the two thousands, we've had him
in the twenty tens. I mean the superhero genre is
to think because of the success of Batman. Everything comes

(51:15):
from Batman. Literally, the MCU, the DCEU, all of it
comes from the initial success of the Batman TV show,
the continued success of the Batman series as it went on.
The Batman movies have never not been profitable for the
most part. I mean they took a break from Batman
and Robin because Batman and Robin was very poorly received,

(51:38):
but it made back its budget. It made back its money.
I mean it was laughed out of the building because
here's the thing, and this is the thing I kind
of alluded to before. If you like Batman nineteen sixty six,
you know what, You're gonna love Batman and Robin. You
know why, because Batman and Robin is pretty much just
Batman sixty six in ninety seven. It's very campy, it's

(51:59):
very over the top. And you know, again, like Batman
and Superman are kind of one A and one B
in terms of our country's like big superheroes that had
a big presence before the Superhero time the two thousand
and eight further so, I mean, in a lot of ways,
it's hard to answer this question without bringing up like

(52:20):
I did bring up Superman and the Superman movies, but
Batman is in a lot of ways like the Superhero
film and the Superhero film series. Like I don't it's
not that I don't see a lot of people arguing
about it, but I don't see a lot of people
arguing about who's their favorite Superman. But we've already had
a huge amount of discussion here between us and the

(52:42):
audience about favorite Batman and favorite Bruce Wayne. Like, I mean,
maybe we could do an episode in the future on Superman.
It's not something I'm imminently super well versed on I've
seen enough, but I haven't seen all of it. So again,
Christopher Reeves is amazing, but so as Adam West is Batman,

(53:02):
so is you know, Michael Keaton. I think that the
superhero genre as a whole has been one of those
genres that really has built on top of itself in
a way that like a lot of genres haven't. I mean,
westerns aren't a thing the way they used to be.
Musicals aren't a thing the way they used to be.
Superhero movies forty years from now may be a long
thing of the past that people are like, remember when

(53:24):
superhero movies were in That may be a thing because
I'm sure people in the fifties and sixties couldn't fathom
big budget musicals not continuing to be made into the
seventies and eighties, But yet they really weren't the way
they were before. So I think it is Batman and
Superman in general have been the litmus test of where

(53:45):
we're going with superhero stuff and the success of it.
I mean, I remember the hype around the Dark Knight.
It was insane, the arg game that they had with it,
all of the publicity that they did for it. I mean,
this is the same time around like Cloverfield, and they're
doing like arg interactive stuff to like go find something
in the real world that somebody planted, like that was

(54:07):
the Dark Night, So I.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Mean Arkham Asylum games that came after that.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Oh yeah, Jesus Christ. I mean that's honestly, that's the
other thing. The video games alone, like that in and
of itself kind of helps move the needle. But again,
like I prefer my Batman as a detective, but Batman's
been a superhero a lot of the time. So that's

(54:31):
why my answer was the Batman twenty twenty two. So
in a lot of ways, we're just now at the
point where Batman's being treated the way I personally appreciate
the character to be treated. But he has been a
full fledged world saving superhero in most of his movies,
which I think speaks to the idea of what the
expectation was for these kinds of movies. The further we

(54:53):
get away from something that's kind of contained like Batman
nineteen eighty nine, Like Batman nineteen eighty nine is a
contained thing. There's no other things going on anywhere else,
there's no hintset fucking future sequels or any of that.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
Shit, And there's no competition either.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
That was the right, right, And that's the other thing.
Batman exists essentially, Batman eighty nine exists and very much
in a vacuum in terms of the quality of that
kind of movie being made, in terms of the quality
at the time of that movie being made. But Batman
is just, he is ever green. He has always been
around since the day I was born. Batman's been around.
Batman will probably be around the day that I die,

(55:30):
and further on into the future. He is quintessentially the
American superhero. Yeah, and yeah, I'm with Sibner, Like, I
genuinely think whatever Reeves comes up with next is going
to be the Batman movie. Like I genuinely think that
he has a better wrangle on this than anybody else

(55:54):
has other than Michael, not Michael Keatan, but Tim Burton.
But I mean, Batman is just He's been ever present,
and so I think, you know, what is his impact
on pop culture? He has been part of the pop
culture discussion forever. It's hard to avoid it. So again,
it's like it's hard to really pin any one thing
down because this time. Unlike some of the other episodes

(56:15):
we've done, there are obvious answers on the other things
we've done. There is way too much here to give
just one singular answer.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Man a few things here, so I agree with you.
Obviously this is a big deal. But the way that
I wanted to talk about this was twofold.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
I know that I.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Alluded earlier to superhero movies get dark and gritty because
of Christopher Nolan, and you can look at that as
a good or bad thing. You're not necessarily wrong, depends
on your preference for these things. That's a very obvious
answer because it's affected all of the films since two
thousand and eight. That's been a big, big deal. But
sadly I kind of want to reach through the screen

(57:00):
and punched Sibner in the face because I thought I
was going to have a pretty unique answer. My answer is,
I think the fact that The Dark Knight, and it's
kind of an open secret that The Dark Knight and
Wally not getting nominated for Best Picture is what led
to the Oscars expanding into ten films being nominated for
Best Picture. And I can't imagine what smaller films since

(57:25):
two thousand and eight never would have been given the
appreciation and outward pop culture understanding of their existence if
it weren't for them being nominated for Best Picture and
without them expanding to ten. Gosh, some of these, like

(57:45):
like from last year, I can't imagine the Past Lives
would not have been in the top five. I almost
guarantee it, and that movie I see it as a masterpiece.
So I think the way that we're looking at these
movies as a whole and compare aring them is a
big deal, because the Oscars, no matter what, no matter
how much you love award shows, are not And Sibner,

(58:07):
I was obviously kidding, you just took my answer. It's
one of those things where the appreciation level for some
of these it is literally an honor just to get nominated,
and that changes the trajectory of a film for the
rest of film history. Without some of these, like it

(58:27):
was one of my favorite movies last year, so I'm
gonna harp on it. But without Past Lives being nominated
for Best Picture, I could see Past Lives being completely
forgotten in five years by most people. But because it
was nominated for Best Picture, it is something that Selene
Song is going to be able to look back on
and put on a resume and every movie that she
comes out Selene's song previously, like Best Picture nominated Best

(58:50):
Picture Film Director.

Speaker 3 (58:52):
That's a big, big deal.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
It's one of those things that can carry literally a
director's entire career, an actor's entire career, an editor's entire career,
a producer's entire career. It can set somebody onto a
film tangent that will allow them to create the next
Gone with the Wind or Masterpiece or whatever you want
to say. Like, there are so many things that come

(59:16):
from that. And to literally double the number of titles.
I mean, all props to Dark Knight and Wally for
making them go. Well, you know, maybe we should expand
this a little bit. I think that's a big deal.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
I I'm not going to disagree with you, I will say, though,
like to your point and probably to the detriment of it. Though, yes,
they've expanded it to ten, but have they really ever
gone outside of five movies to look at what's gonna win?

Speaker 3 (59:45):
I I mean that's a problem.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
It's a problem, right, Like, that's the problem because it's
like all the poppuy they're just like, well, Avatar too,
like your drugs, Like it's.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Just you know what I mean, disagree with that.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
I know, I know, I know, I get, I get
where you're coming from. But at the same time, like
elevating something is great, But at the same time, Cuba
Gooding Junior won an Academy Award and it didn't do
shit for his career. There are exceptions that prove the
rules sometimes, I mean, it's it's just I guess, yeah,
I know, I get that, but okay, I mean, wow,
I'm gonna drag the good name of Cuba Gooding Junior

(01:00:18):
on this show, sir, how dare you? I'm just saying
again in a lot of ways, yes, I appreciate that
they expanded it, but it feels like a little bit
of a hollow victory, you know what I mean, because,
like to Sibner's point, it should have been directors. If
they're gonna expand movies, they need to expand directors. Then
they need to expand actors, then they need to expand everything,

(01:00:38):
because where do you stop?

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Where?

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
And see where do you stop? That's the question. They
expanded the movies to ten okay, but there's really only
like five movies that are really ever considered to win,
and so at that point you but come on, man Avatar.
Was it is though?

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Because of how the academy is built, there's literally thousands
of people that are not even connected other than they're
standing in the academy across the country. There are so
many people that will yes, Cuba could have one.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Yes, Yes, boy rat race came up twice today, Jesus
Christ organically of all things.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
The way that I will prove that this is, you know,
incorrect in my mind. The way that you're describing it
is because of the Barbie problem from last year, like
Greta Gerwig not getting nominated and Margot Robbie not getting
nominated was literally only.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Because the taste of thousands.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Of parts of the academy across the country are so eclectic.
It's not just five, because so many of those people
have different tastes that are voting for different things. No,
I do think that literally all ten stand in actual chance,
because all it takes is for a portion of that
to have just a slight majority of a different type
of taste.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
And yet is anyone surprised when the things win that win? Though?
That's my point, I mean, Oppenheimer Oppenheimer was gonna win.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
And this is not okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
I mean fair though fair though fair.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Though things like Parasite that that is un that's the type.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
But I think Parasite would have gotten nominated anyways.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Oh, like it's even with ten people.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
Were like, whoa, this got nominated.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
It's it's I mean, America's like with the especially with
the Academy. They're historically fairly racist.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Well yeah, but they're but they're not just But I mean,
it's surprising that they nominated Parasite, but they don't nominate
films made by POC directors in this fucking country, Like
whoop dee do they nominated someone from another country, but
they don't give a shit about people here. I mean,
that's the problem with the Academy, right is the makeup
of the Academy is a bunch of old white folks.

(01:02:44):
Still still no matter how many people you bring in,
no matter how many other people are in the pool,
there's still those people that have been there forever. And
for me, it's it's a popularity contest. That's the real
fucking problem here. I mean, ultimately, but at the end
of it, but at the end of the day, like
you've said, all it really matters is, oh, your movie

(01:03:06):
gets gets that little qualifier in front of it, which
for a lot of people is important the nominated for
So again, I think, look, it's it's The Academies are
a The Academy Awards are something I really don't like
talking about for a whole host of reasons because the
less said about the Academy Awards the fucking better, because

(01:03:27):
in a lot of ways they don't determine the fucking
taste of any one of us, especially not people that
watch movies, especially people that sit and watch movies every day.
Like I know everybody in your audience does like I do,
and you do. Look, Barbie was a great movie, But
Barbie wasn't the best fucking movie last year any more
than Oppenheimer.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
And that's why I didn't win what I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
Be, but Oppenheimer won and it wasn't the best movie
of last year either.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
What I'm gonna say is, I honestly, like, deep down,
I think most people that love the Oscars, but we'll
even say that they're truly important. I think the biggest
thing is it's our day as movie lovers to literally
come together and have the mainstream love of movies be normal,
and that alone is important. I think that's something that

(01:04:14):
we should do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Yeah, I mean I get it. Look, it's this is subjective.
That's the problem here. We are not talking objectively anymore.
We are speaking purely subjectively. These are our opinions. We
don't This is not the kind of discussion we often
get into on this show, which is very funny. On
top of everything else, it's probably the most contentious it's
ever been between the two of us.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
I don't think it's contentious. I think it's just a
matter of seeing it differently. I think that the expanding
it to ten, I think it should go to directors
as well, because they are literally the one creating the movie.
But I don't think there's any like we should expand
every best actor to ten, Like, I don't think that's something.
Why not is a question? Because it would go forever.

(01:04:55):
That's the biggest thing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
And oh, I mean wouldn't they love that?

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Though? I mean some people would for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
Look at the end of the day, like I said,
the less said about the Oscars, the better for me,
because they don't determine my favorite movies of a year.
They don't determine the things I watch. I listen to
my friends who watch movies, and I watch movies based
on their suggestions. But here's the thing, to your point,
to your point, that's not me, that's not you, that's
not who these are four right, And the entire academy

(01:05:26):
is not racist. It's just the entire academy is still
catching up to the way that the rest of the company,
the rest of the countries ethnically diverse. That's what the
problem is. There's a lag time. There's a lag time,
isn't there. Well, that's what this is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
I'm just laughing because his comment is declaring the entire
academy racist is a bit of a stretch. Nobody declared
they were racist. I said, historically they have been very racist.
Like it's by definition the way that they have voted
historically has been all white with them.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Hey, the Green Book won everybody remember that? Hey remember
that movie. Let's talk about how great The Green Book
is and how everybody's watching it. Oh wait, nobody fucking is.
That's all I'm saying, Just like, just like so many
Oscar winning movies that just flit out into existence and
nobody thinks about them. We mentioned Cuba cutting Junior. What's

(01:06:24):
he up to other than being sued for things? It's
this is a hard I mean, the Academy is a
hard thing to wrangle with because, speaking of Batman, you
could go as far as to say Batman legitimized comic
book movies because it was the first comic book movie
to win an Oscar yep. In terms of acting. I'm
sure one of the movies won for special effects or something.
Correct me in the comments, but I'm talking about the

(01:06:46):
big awards. And then I would actually go as far
as to say Joaquin Phoenix doesn't win the Academy Award
for Joker if Heith Ledger didn't win it first. I mean, again,
legitimizing superhero movies, how do you do that? You hire
Chris Nolan, Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that
was the intention of hiring Chris Nolan was to legitimize

(01:07:09):
superhero movies, but that's what it did. It legitimized them
as a you know, not just superhero movies, they're movies,
which again, like that's stupid in and of itself as
far as I'm concerned, and kind of pedantic. But when
we're talking about these kinds of things, like so much
of this is just out in the public sphere and
there's nothing we can do about it. Anyways.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
Uh So let's move on to our last question.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
By the way, and everybody bringing up the blind side,
you guys are a bunch of trolls. But that's my point,
Like you can look, I know that this makes this
makes you kind of hot under the color, but don't
forget gone or not Gone with Wind. That movie deserved it.
Dances with Wolves won over Goodfellas, and so did Kevin
Costner for Best Director. Holy Moley fucking and you know what,

(01:08:01):
The Departed winning for Best Film and Best Director, not
Martin Scorsese's best film, not his best directed film. They
were me a coping for what happened in the nineties. Yeah,
and yeah, going back to before the thing with Brokeback
Mountain is exactly what I was alluding to. They couldn't
give it to the gay cowboy movie. They gave it
to the totally safe option.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
It's not even a great movie. That's the hard Well crash.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
No. Yeah, it's just it's like it's a movie written
at a time and a place when things were kind
of that way, and it's not like that anymore, if
it ever was.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Right, all right, So the interesting way we're going to
end this discussion, Question four is always what is a
cinematic bridge to our topic that we're discussing? So basically,
what is something that if you are a listener to
this and you've somehow never ever seen a Batman movie?
What is something that might clue you in that you
would like these if you would, you know, liked something

(01:08:58):
else first. It could be another franchise, it could be
another film, it could be some filmmakers films. So, Chris,
what is our cinematic bridge to Batman?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
I mean, this is like, this is this is like
a gimme question, right, because yeah, yeah, honestly, like, if
how do you approach someone and say you want to
watch a Batman movie? What do you like? Like, if
you're into action movies, if you're amenable too big, over

(01:09:32):
the top kind of action movies. Like, if you're into
action movies, how have you not seen a Batman movie?

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
I wouldn't point you at the Chris and Nolan stuff
because it's not what you're gonna expect, but the Batman,
I mean, even Batman versus Superman is kind of a
big dumb action movie. I'm not saying all the Batman
movies are dumb, but I'm also not saying that Batman
needs to elevate itself to the heights of Stanley Kubrick.
I mean, it's fucking Batman. Sometimes I just want it
to be Batman. So as far as I'm concerned, like

(01:10:01):
it kind of speaks for itself. Like if you're in
a superhero movies, you've never seen a Batman movie, what
are you doing? I've never seen an action movie. Or
if you've seen action movies and you like action movies,
go check out Batman movies. I mean, this is a
hard one because it's just like Batman, like what either
you're in or you're out right like yep, I don't

(01:10:21):
know how to put this. Like I have plenty of friends,
as I'm sure you do, who are like I don't
watch those MCU movies, and it's like why those are
dumb lowbrow and I'm like, what they're entertainment? Like they
not every movie that comes out has to check every
fucking box of highbrow entertainment. So I don't know. I mean, again,
like I would say, like action movies in general, maybe

(01:10:44):
you're not resonating with superhero movies. Maybe that's not your thing.
If that's not your thing, maybe give the Dark Knight
a try, because it's the least superheroe of all of them,
other than the Batman. But as far as I'm concerned,
like it's just a matter of are you in or
you're out, because Batman is its own in a lot
of ways. Yes, there are a bunch of movies, but

(01:11:06):
they're all of a piece in a way. Frankly, they're
all very much of the same kind of thing. So
that's my answer. What about yours.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
I took an easy answer because I didn't want to
think on this one, and I went just kind of specific,
like the most comparable to Batman, and so I'm just
gonna throw out there, if you like the Iron Man
story and the Ironman trilogy, I think that you'll probably
like the Batman films. It's another superhero without superhero tendencies

(01:11:33):
because he has no powers.

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):
He's just rich guy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
It is probably the most like comparable type of story
to what you get from many of these Batman movies.
It's a guy that's you know, down on his luck
and trying to come back from something and working hard
to help people and yeah, thanks Sibner. Yeah, it's an

(01:11:57):
obvious answer, but I think that iron Man is the
most comparable on that front.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
I wouldn't say all the Batman movies are a man
against the world because you got Batman and Robin Oh yeah, yeah,
you got all kinds of stuff Like Look. The other
thing is Batman kind of like we've already alluded to,
is fluid within genres. So that's why I said, like,
if you're into a certain kind of thing, you can
be pointed more specifically in a certain direction with Batman.

(01:12:22):
If you want campy, we can point you there. If
you want serious, point you there. If you want middle
of that road, can point you there too. So that's
the thing. Not all the comic book movies or comic
book character movies are so fluid. They're kind of of
a thing, like I mean, iron Man's kind of all
the thing, Doctor Strange, kind of all the thing, like

(01:12:44):
Batman is kind of all over the place, which is
what makes Batman a fun character.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
The best I would say, Uh, well, we didn't talk
about Romo and all the plugging type stuff. Anything you
want to shout out before we call it a night.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Chris Weirdingwaymedia dot com. That's where you can go to
hear more of my thoughts on things or me talking
with other people about our thoughts on things. That's where
you can find the audio version of this show, film Foundations,
and uh yeah, everything else that I work on pretty
much can be found there, other than Ranking on Bond,
which is me and Richard HadAM of Richard Adam's paranormal Bookshelf.

(01:13:21):
He's also the writer of under Siege two and The
Mothman Prophecies, which he wrote with Matt Reeves, which I
didn't mention here, but we will never get to talk
to Matt Reeves because it's been essentially said to me
directly that he doesn't want to do publicity if he
doesn't have to, and this is tantamount to that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Apparently he's above it now.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Yeah, well, or it's just he doesn't want to do it.
He's a very private person, is what I've been told.
But yeah, that's where you can find Ranking on Bond,
which is over at patreon dot com slash culture cast
or patreon dot com slash Projection booth at the ten
dollars level and up about you, Ryan.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
I'll just shout out the magazine again earlier that we
talked about on this show. Check out the Physical Media
Advocate available on Amazon link in the description below. If
you want it in a store local to you, and
when I say local to you, I mean world freaking wide,
Like this thing is being sold in Canada, Italy, Germany,
the UK, Australia. You can get it on all of

(01:14:19):
your local Amazons, but also I can have it on
sale in your local shops. If you've got a contact
or work at one, or friends with somebody that works
at one.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
Let me know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:28):
I would be happy to talk about supplying wholesale versions
of these and get it sold in your shop. There
is a lot of people out there that I think
would enjoy it, and I would be thrilled to have
some assistance. The discussion tonight has been great. I appreciate
everybody being a part of this, and I hope that
you come back to check out another episode of Film Foundations.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Like I said, every Wednesday, it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
Will be available in the video version and the audio version.
If you got any suggestions, questions, leave comments everywhere. We
want to have a community surrounding this thing, and yeah,
I hope you enjoyed this shows