Nora Ephron with Melissa D'Agostino: An Introduction to Sleepless in Seattle, Mixed Nuts, and more!!

On this week's episode of Film Foundations, Chris and Ryan are back with a discussion on Nora Ephron! Which one is your favorite? Do you want to be in a rom-com with Tom Hanks? Do you agree with our answers?! Let us know!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Film Foundations, the collaborative show
between weirding Way Media and Someone's Favorite Productions. I am
your co host Chris Stashu from weirding Way Media, but
more specifically the Culture Cast.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
And I am Ryan Verell from The Disconnected and Someone's
Favorite Productions.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
On this show, we ask and answer four questions around
a given topic that is surrounding either an actor, franchise,
micro genre, or in this episode's case, a director and
a writer. And speaking of a director and a writer.
On this episode, we are joined by Matt Campanna's better half.
He has been on the show already once, but we

(00:47):
are joined by his wife, all the way from the
Great North of Canada. She is a filmmaker, actor, and
writer and director, Melissa.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Digostino, the Augustino.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
There you go.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Sorry, I fucked it up. I fucked it up.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
It's perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
I even asked you and I fucked it up. So
there you go.

Speaker 5 (01:04):
The apostrophe really messes with people. I get it, like,
do I stop? Do I not stop? I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
So before we get into the topic, first, welcome to
the show, and secondly, for our listeners who may not
have heard of you and your work. What keeps you
busy up there in the Great White North of Canada.

Speaker 5 (01:25):
Oh, I make movies. I also make theaters, so I'm
doing a bit of both right now. I just am
in the midst of releasing my debut feature film called
Mother of All Shows, that I directed a couple of
years ago, starring the wonderful Wendy Malick, who you might
know from Oh Yes in Cleveland and so many great

(01:46):
just shoot me, you've got it and dream On and
she's amazing, And so that's coming out this year and
that's been thrill. And then I've co directed a couple
of other features with my butter half, Matt Compania, and
we're working on an animated film right now. And when
I'm not doing that, I'm producing other people's movies or

(02:09):
acting in projects, a little bit of everything.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
And Highball TV as well, right.

Speaker 5 (02:15):
Yeah, co founder of Highball TV streaming.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, yeah, I remember the pre Highball TV days.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
Even that was god because I was.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Ryan and I were looking through some of the old
episodes on my show and I want to say I
spoke to Matt for the first time in like twenty sixteen, so.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, I think years, Yeah, long time.

Speaker 5 (02:38):
It feels like so so long.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, well yeah, cause because it is really Oh no, So,
if you clicked on this episode, you know we're going
to be talking about Nora Efron, but you may not
know why. So I'm going to kick it to you, Melissa,
Why why Nora Efron? Of all the things you can
pick and choose, why Nora Efron?

Speaker 5 (03:00):
She is a massive hero of mine. I am currently
wearing minrafront shirts in you know, homage to her, and
I've read her books, I've seen her films, and her
style of filmmaking and writing appeals to me so much
and really has been a key part of how I

(03:21):
approach making movies and telling stories.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know the movies that she wrote,
and then some of the movies that she wrote and
directed obviously are some very heavy hitters with a lot
of really big.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Names in them.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
So in a lot of ways, I mean, if you
don't know who she is, her reputation kind of precedes
her with stuff like when Harry Met Sally, or Sleepless
in Seattle or You've Got Male obviously, which I think
are kind of like tenants of rom coms. I think
in general, if not the best example of rom coms.

Speaker 5 (03:59):
For the Yeah, I would say so, And I think
her coming from journalism and coming from being a writer,
it informed so much of how she approached films. But
she also was so interested in romance and in relationships
and in New York City and so like. It's so
foundational the work she did in terms of how we

(04:21):
look at modern romantic comedies and what we look at
as the benchmark. And she was so influenced by classic
romantic comedies that you can really see the line from
those classic Hollywood movies through to her through to you
know where we are now?

Speaker 3 (04:39):
About you, Ryan? What is uh?

Speaker 1 (04:41):
What are your early experiences with Norah Efron?

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Obviously some all the classics early on. Sleepless in Seattle
was a big one for me when I was young
for some reason weird, but yes, the big thing I
really want to throw out before we get into the
discussion is because of what listen just say about the
background of journalism and writing, there are more aspects of

(05:06):
these characters than you get in most films, and so
the romantic comedies feel like full throated in a way
that other films that have tried to tackle the genre
just can't no matter how hard they try, they're unable
to stack up to some of these. And it's it's
it's foundational in the way that if you if you
just want the perfect example, this is the bar that

(05:29):
has been set by many of these films. So yeah,
these are these are incredible.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
I have very little experience with these movies, not for
any specific reason, not because I don't like rom coms,
far from it. It's just I don't know a specific
kind of rom com from a specific time. Kind of
has never been something that anyone has pushed me to watch,
and or I've it's really pushed me to watch.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
That's kind of the way I exist now.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
At this point in my film watching existence is I
watch stuff I want to and if someone's like, go
watch this, I will be pushed in that direction. But yeah,
not a lot of people pushing me in the direction
of any of these. I've seen some of them, but
the ones that I've seen I have seen of my
own accord, including two of which I saw in theaters.
So but none of the I mean, I guess again,

(06:20):
like that's the thing. When we get into the questions,
we'll kind of talk about it. But I don't think
my answers are the things that she's quote known for unquote,
and I'm sure there will be again, you know, questions
as to what that is overall. But yeah, Nora Efron
is someone that I personally do not have a lot
of experience with, but I do have answers. I just

(06:41):
don't have a lot of experience. So kind of like
you've kind of already hinted at, Melissa, anything about Nora
Ephron that's important to know in your opinion before we
go any further into the questions.

Speaker 5 (06:56):
Certainly, yeah, the journalism angle is a big one, but
also that she minds from her own life deeply for
her films, and she talks about the people and things
that have happened to her and and you know, this
was the double edged sword for her. It led to
a lot of success for her, but it also costs
for a lot, and people were quite hard on her

(07:20):
for airing some of her what they would call dirty laundry.
But you know, she grew up with a mom her
both of her parents were screenwriters, and her mom always
said everything is copy and she took her whole lifetime
kind of unraveling and picking apart what that means, and
her son made a great documentary about her called Everything

(07:41):
Is Copy, and they discuss, you know, that concept of
what it is to look at everything in your life
as something you could make into a movie or a book,
and how that might affect the people around you. So
she was also very very much mentored by Mike Nichols,
and so a lot of her sensibility comes from mc
nichols and from Rob Reiner, who she obviously collaborated with

(08:04):
on When Harry Metsali. So she comes from you know,
Hollywood stock. She's sort of her a nepo baby in
her own right and comes from a very interesting set
of circumstances well.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
And she's also her spouses are very interesting as well.
She was married to Carl Bernstein for a couple of
years and then would be married to Nicholas Poleggi for
the rest of her life, who you know, wrote with Scorsese, Well,
wrote the book that Goodfellas is based off, but then
wrote the script for What Casino and.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Goodfellas.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
So, yeah, like you said, nepo baby, but also in
a way that's not I mean again, like I think
that term is what it is at this point. But
she she made good at least, you know, and contributed mightily.
So you know, not every NEPO baby can say that truth.

Speaker 5 (08:59):
I don't use it in a derogatory way. I use
it more as factually accurate.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, exactly, like it's it's just the reality. You can't,
i mean, can't do anything about it really, even if
you wanted to.

Speaker 5 (09:08):
So yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
So let's just uh, let's just transition into into the
questions and kind of see see where the conversation goes
and what shakes out. So, Melissa, what do you consider
a foundational title for Nora Ephron?

Speaker 5 (09:26):
Well, this is interesting because you said you may not
pick obvious choices, and I don't know that I will either,
And I have a I have a two pronged answer
which might be against these rules.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
But I'm no, not again, no, not against the rules
at all.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
I would I'm not even gonna say we haven't done that,
because we have, okay, plenty of times amazing.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
Then I'll fit right in. I'll say, I'll say that
from a standpoint of her as a writer, I'd say
a foundational title is Heartburn, which is based on the
book she wrote. Uh. So, she wrote a novel about
her breakup with Carl Bernstein and uh and and turned
it into a movie that Mike Nichols directed. And I
think if you want to know Nora Ephron as a writer,

(10:07):
you watch Hartburn and then I would say the flip
side of that as a writer director is actually Julie
and Julia, which I don't think is one of her
strongest films, but I think it is very autobiographical. It
is very much about her. The relationship between Julia Child
and Paul Child's is very much her relationship with Nick Polegie,

(10:30):
and she was making it while she was sick, and
I think it is basically Nora Efron's heart and head
in a movie. And and and so I think those
two are my like, if you want to know what
Norafron's about, I think you watch those two movies. And
I don't think they're necessarily her strongest and obviously not

(10:51):
her most popular, but I think they tell you who
Nora Efron is.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Well.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
I think it's it's more important to not necessarily picked
the most popular thing cool. And I think that obviously
with what we're doing, that kind of lends itself in.
I think the direction we want to go interesting choices, Ryan, Ryan, Ryan,
where do you come in on this? What are your
thoughts on the choices so far?

Speaker 2 (11:18):
I like them both. I think they are good choices.
I'm glad that we are highlighting especially heartburn. That's one
that doesn't get a lot of discussion nowadays. I feel
like gets overlooked for no reason. And uh, I mean's
Jack Nicholson, Like that's something that's Meryl Streep.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Well, we do, We've already talked about.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
That's why I said it like that. We just had
a full episode on Meryl Streep and so bringing up
Jack Nicholson, we probably need a Jack Nicholson episode here eventually,
but he's done like three hundred movies or whatever, so yeah,
that'll be difficult.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
What what's your answer for this question? Ryan? What's your
foundational pick here?

Speaker 2 (11:57):
My foundational pick is the one that made me mostly
interested in the way that she writes, and so mine
is a little more mainstreamy than Melissa's picks. But I
have to go with when Harry met Sally this was
trying to deconstruct this film. It really shows how perfect

(12:18):
these characters are written from every single angle, because this
is the kind of movie you get done with the film,
and somebody can prompt you with like five different questions
about the characters on what they would do in a
certain situation, and you could probably answer because they've been
turned into these almost real life people for you. The
way that she's written these people, you can forecast their

(12:39):
lives and their choices, and they're so three dimensional that
the film hurts you. It brings you joy, It brings
you all of these emotions because you are attached to,
especially our two main leads, but with everybody, even some
of the people that are only in a few of
the scenes. You get glimpses into these full lives rather
than just you know, some some random sitcom where somebody

(13:02):
knocks on the door and they walk in and we
get a laugh at them. They leave and it's like, well,
who were they? Like that doesn't mean anything in her movies.
It is this, this actual life. It is this very
very realistic feeling of somebody's entire life held on a
platter for you simply to enjoy. But I mean the
big thing here the collaboration with her and Rob Reiner,

(13:24):
like he was in the middle of one of the
hottest streaks and films ever, but without her script. Obviously
this never would have been able to be as great
as this is. He's a great director, sure, but it's
very clear based on what she did after this that man,
she carried the bulk of this film.

Speaker 5 (13:42):
Yeah. They worked quite a bit on that script from
their perspectives, you know of like can men and women
be friends? And they would sit down and talk it out,
and I think it was such a magical pairing. And
then you add into the mix, you know, Billy Crystal
and Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal brought a lot out
of that script as well and added so much it

(14:03):
was on stuff. So that was such an alchemy there
of you know, the people involved for sure.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Oh boy, I need to see this movie, clearly, I don't.

Speaker 5 (14:16):
Know what you've never seen it?

Speaker 3 (14:18):
I have not, I have not.

Speaker 5 (14:20):
It worth a watch Billy Crystal too, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
I would go even further to say I've seen like
no Billy Crystal stuff either.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
So oh so.

Speaker 5 (14:34):
Good forget Paris City Slickers, mister Saturday Night, so many
good ones. We could do a Billy Crystal episode.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
I was to say, like, yeah, well we Billy Crystal
kind of came up sideways with Francis Weber stuff because
he's in Father's Day what Billy Crystal and Robin Williams,
And that's a remake of a Pierre Richard Gerard Depardue film.
So I have an answer for this, but kind like

(15:00):
I kind of already alluded to and Ryan knows what
the answer is because we did the Meryl Street episode together,
But mine is two thousand and nine's Julie and Julia.
It's a great movie, I think, again I alluded to
it on the Meryl Streep episode. I think it's a
fantastic Meryl Street performance. But like you mentioned, Melissa, it's
also kind of a story about Nora Efron's life while talking.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
About Julia Child's life, which is.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
I think that's the right way to do something like that,
where you're you are drawing from your own life but
not necessarily putting yourself in it specifically. So and I
enjoy I mean as someone who enjoys a lot of
cooking and who cooks themselves, you know, I liked that
aspect of it. I think that that I like that

(15:47):
that's the world that the movie takes place in. But yeah,
I mean it's such a well written movie. And again,
like you both have already mentioned, like the characters are
fully realized in a way that when these kinds of
movies are done right, that's why they resonate with people.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
And there are plenty of these kinds of movies that don't.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
I mean, how many Hallmark movies exist every year that
are just I mean that exists to be very easy
to digest, but that's because they're in the bulk, I
mean just bulk, easy to digest things. There's nothing wrong
with it. But like you both alluded to with some
of these other movies, there's more to chew on here,
which is the intent of Nora Ephron, both as a

(16:28):
writer and a director.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
Yes, and I think her borrowing so much from her
own life, even just being able to as a writer
transmute her own experience into characters is such a big
part of that. And I think, you know, the interesting
thing about Julie and Julia, which I always want to
call Matt and I always joke because I just want
to call it Julie versus Julia Donna Cook Do, I

(16:50):
think actually would have been a pretty fantastic film as well.
But I think it's interesting because the Julie character is
very unlikable in some ways, and I love that about it,
and I love that Noura really did explore women who
were a lot to sort of shake. I mean, even
in Sleepless in Seattle. You know, she is pretty intense,

(17:15):
the mcgrian character, And I like that. I like that
the women in these stories are complicated and sometimes do
things you really don't agree with and that you know,
border on obsessive or problematic even and yet and yet
you are on their side because you can relate to
what is motivating them to do that. And that, to

(17:38):
me is the skill of a writer and director who
who understands the depth of that well.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
And like we've already also said, like it allows her
to elevate. I mean, again, I don't think that it's
not that rom coms get a bad name, but because
so many come out and they are so kind of
of a piece, once you're doing something a little bit
more elevated, it does stand out immediately. And with something
like when Harry met Sally or I mean, there are

(18:07):
a couple other ones on this list that I mean,
You've got male Sleepless in Seattle. I mean those are
I mean, those are like what columns that hold the
rom com genre up at this point right there, they
would be possible answers if we did a rom I mean,
I think it would be impossible to do a rom
com episode because that's way too broad, but they would

(18:29):
be kicked around in terms of possible answers, if not answers,
in if we were to do a certain time span
of rom coms, I think one, if not some of
or all of those might show up as possible answers.
That's how kind of indelible her mark has been left.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
On the genre as a whole.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, But the question I have as we go into
the next The next question is what is something lesser
known that's not as foundational that someone might be kind
I've already talked about turned off by because some of
the characters are so well written they tend to jump
off the page, maybe more than some people are expecting.

(19:12):
Second question, what is a lesser known or a deep
deeper cut title from Nora Efron's work that you might
point someone to if they were looking for something. In
addition to Julia and Julia and Hartburn.

Speaker 5 (19:27):
This was hard because I have, again, I have two
and they go in very different directions. But I would
say one of the deep cuts that I it took
me a long time to get around to seeing is
called This Is My Life, which was made in ninety two,
I think, and stars Julie Kavner, who's the voice of
Marge Simpson famously Yeah Yeah, and has Gabby Hoffman in it,

(19:49):
which is the first Gabby Hoffman appearance in anra Efron
followed then by Sleepless in Seattle. But it's about a
stand up comedian, a woman who becomes a stand up
comedian in the wor eighties early nineties and sort of
abandons for lack of a better term, she sort of
goes off to launch her career and her kids, her
two daughters, sort of get left behind. It's based on

(20:11):
a book and written by Nora and Delia Efron, who
often collaborated. And it's such an interesting film. It's it's
very it's got two voiceover protagonists. It meanders a lot
in terms of the narrative, so it's it's not your

(20:31):
really well structured rom com. It's it's not that at all.
But it's such an interesting glimpse into that time for
women and women in the industry and for mothers and Daughters.
It also has such a stacked cast. It's like Carrie
Fisher's in it, dan Ackroyd's in it, like Carolyn Aaron's

(20:54):
in It's amazing. So I think it's really worth a watch.
It's a very unique film. So if you're looking for
something that gives you that female point of view, women
in relationships, women in the industry, and that will give
you that, And then if you haven't seen Silkwood, you

(21:19):
must see Silkwood. She wrote Silkwood and Mike Nichols directed it,
and it's I think it's an incredible film. I don't
think it gets nearly the attention that it should, and
that is more of the journalism side. So if you're
interested in Nora Efron as journalist and writer and person
who is very interested in the mechanism of journalism and

(21:42):
in reporting and all that, then I think Silkwood's your choice.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
And it's a Meryl Street movie. Once again, Meryl's showing
up again. Good old what's Meryl up to you right now?
Just be in like in every other episode of the show. Now, jeez, yeah, well,
good Lord.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
For her for good reason, for good.

Speaker 5 (22:03):
Reason, yeah, and share Silkwood has shared in an incredible performance.
Oh that also, I think does not get the attention
that it deserves. I think shar in general as an
actor doesn't. But she's amazing that in that film.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, what are your thoughts on these picks? Ryan? And now,
where where do you come in with yours?

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Silkwood is great. It's been a long time. I need
to revisit it. Is Silkwood the only Kurt Russell collaboration
with anything Nora Fron.

Speaker 5 (22:34):
I think so, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, he I guess he took a little bit of
a turn after that movie and started doing some different things.
It's a good movie. Yeah, definitely, definitely good choice. And
the fact that it's her first one. There's something special,
especially for good writers for their first film, because it's
usually one that they have poured their life into for
quite some time to make that first one right, and

(22:58):
so usually that's got like something special about it that
you can just feel sort of tangible. So, yeah, that's
a great choice. Mine is we kind of already talked
about the goodfellow's connection with the writer. I got to
reach out to my blue heaven. This is my choice
for this one, because I mean, you're you're sitting here

(23:18):
with your spouse. You're both researching this same mobster, and
you go through everything and you both write a movie
that are two very different ends of the spectrum. And
for those that haven't seen it, this one is primarily different.
As you can tell by the cast. We've got Steve
Martin and Rick moranis headlining this one, with Joan Cusack

(23:39):
bringing it up alongside. And this one's great. It's it's
another film that's based on Henry Hill, and this one
is it's hilarious. It's kind kind of like a low
key comedy based on what else was going around, what
else was going on around that time in the eighties.
It wasn't too I don't know, it wasn't too slapsticky,

(24:00):
wasn't too in your face with the comedy. But again,
pitch perfect writing. That is like across all of these films.
You can follow that thread and you are drawn into
every single person that you look at because these scripts
are so thought out and so well done in a
perspective of I want to make sure that the story

(24:20):
is airtight and it works perfectly. Chris, I'm sure you
haven't seen My Blue Heaven. Have you seen that one?

Speaker 5 (24:27):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I have because you essentially watch it right after
you watch Goodfellas, because it's it essentially picks up where
Goodfellas leaves off. I literally is like, this is what
happened after he went to Witness Protection. I mean the
only thing that's different is they don't set it where
it was actually set, which is Omaha, Nebraska, of all places,
which is where Henry Hill actually ended up. Yeah, I

(24:48):
mean it's it's a great movie. It does kind of
stand out as a like it's not that it's weird,
but it's like such a different thing than I mean
everything we've mentioned up until this point, really other than
the other things that you mentioned, Melissa, which are kind
of also very different. But yeah, I enjoy it. Steve

(25:10):
Martin's a bit.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Much in the movie, I think is kind of work.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
I mean, I like him, but he's like peak, maybe
even like a little more than Peak. And and it's
and look, it's also like Rick moranis right before he's
like because we're like what two or three years removed
from him, like stepping away from the industry completely. So
it's also a late Rick Morana's role, which huge fan
of Rick moranis same.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, well he I mean yeah, right, like.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
It's it feels impossible to not be Yeah. Yeah, it's
a good pick.

Speaker 6 (25:45):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
My pick is I think interesting because I actually saw
this movie in theaters. I saw Julie and Julia in theaters,
But I also saw Bewitched in theaters, which is a
fucking weird movie, only because the premise is is bizarre.
And I think that for me, what drew me in
was that the premise was so strange. So the rebooting

(26:07):
Bewitched in the movie and Nicole Kidman, who's playing the
character of Okay, I forget the name of her character
in the show, but the titular witch of the Bewitched
is they cast a real witch by accident, is what
it feels like. And so that's the entire premise of
the movie, is what happened if they cast a real

(26:28):
witch in the remake of Bewitched. And it's a weird movie.
It has a speaking of we've kind of already alluded
to movies that have lots of actors in it with
stacked casts. I mean, this movie has Michael Caine, it
has Nicole Kidman, it has Shirley McLain, it has Kristin Chenowith,
I mean, Steve Carrell shows up for like a minute

(26:49):
for a cup of coffee, essentially, Jason Schwartzman. I mean,
there are a lot of people in this movie. And
it came out in two thousand and five, which next
year will be twenty years wow, which is really which
is really fucked. But I I enjoyed it because it
was a It was a very atypical type of thing

(27:11):
that I appreciate how different it is from what it
could have been. And I think that is primarily because
of Nora Efron's involvement. Otherwise it would have just been
a straightforward remake of Bewitched.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
But I like it.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
It's no we're doing a remake of the show and
we have a real witch. And Will Ferrell, for all
of his problems as an actor and how much he
kind of just plays himself now in things, there was
a time where I was like, Will Ferrell could be
kind of like a romantic leading man thing. Him and
Nicole Kidman are cute in the movie together. It's not

(27:48):
a pairing that you would think would work on the
face of it necessarily, but they're really great in the movie,
and I get I enjoy it a lot more than
I think most people even I don't even think most
people remember it existing.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
It's kind of just it exists.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
I haven't heard anybody talk about it, and probably since
it came out effectively.

Speaker 5 (28:08):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think it really got
it did not get received well, and then it just
sort of disappeared. It also doesn't feel like a lot
of people associating her affron with it because they associate
her so much with the sort of romantic comedies we've
we've spoken about up until this point, and that was
a departure. I think it's fascinating in this in this
current culture of like reboot culture we're in where everything

(28:31):
is getting remade, and so much of it is getting
remade in a very formulaic, for lack of a better term, sequels. Yeah, exactly.
I feel like it's so refreshing to go back and
watch that movie and be like, Wow, they really swung
for the you know, but this year they really went
for it, and and I admire that a lot about her.

(28:55):
She took really big risks.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
It reminds me in a lot of ways like that tonally,
because I think the Brady Bunch movie is a lot
funnier and I think that's the intent, but it reminds
me a lot of that where it's like the expectations
are being subverted constantly, because otherwise it wouldn't be a
movie anybody would really have any interest in other than
just pandering and nostalgia. Like again, I can only imagine

(29:21):
what an I Love Lucy movie would look like at
this point. It would just be unless it's a retelling
of the real life story behind the people, which.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
Is what it ended up being. Speaking. Yeah cool, kidman.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
I mean, they wouldn't have done anything interesting, and any
time anybody did anything interesting now that, like you've alluded to, Melissa,
everything is just so same. It is nice that there
were choices being made like this long before we were
tired of people doing this to begin with.

Speaker 5 (29:49):
Yeah, I love going back to this time in sin like,
especially the nineties into the early two thousands, Like there's
a lot of strange films that don't always come together
or they didn't really hit, but they're fascinating and and
really rich, and they spent a lot of money on things,
and you could tell they did, and it was worth

(30:10):
them spending that money as opposed to today when I'm
off and like, sorry, why did your romantic comedy about
stuntman cost that much money? Like, that's not that's not wise,
that's not going to make that money back.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Are you referencing something specific here, No.

Speaker 5 (30:30):
Never, Yeah, just in general general comments for me telling.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Me that they thought they were going to make a
sequel to that movie and then it's now on streaming
less than a month after being out.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Lord yep.

Speaker 5 (30:48):
But uh but I envy too a time when you
could take big swings like that for that kind of money,
And it feels like, you know, we aren't in those
times anymore, unless you are making unless you are studio
making a terrible mistake. But if you're right, you know, I.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Like how matter of fact you are making a terrible mistake. Yeah,
we we tend to talk about them sometimes on this show.
We're a lot nicer on this.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Show than we might be other places about terrible mistakes
that are made.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
It is wild to think that Bewitch was made for
eighty five million dollars, which is kind of I mean,
even in two thousand and five, that's a lot of
money for a rom com but holy shit, looking at
it now, it's like where did that What were you paying?

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Who did you pay? Eighty five? Was that like seventy
to Nicole Kidman? Like a lot of cast I'm.

Speaker 5 (31:46):
Sure probably Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, she gets the
cast like while to watch these movies and be like
everyone signed up to work with her. I mean, speaking
of the Steve Martin, it's like, if you watch Mixed Nuts,
which is truly wild and Steve Martin, you like Steve
Martin and no refron as a combo she brings out

(32:08):
something in him that is over a line, like over
the Steve Martin wacky line, which you know, he's quite wacky,
as we all know. But the casts she got were incredible.
I mean, these are some of the greatest ensembles of
that time where you can see all of these actors
in the same movie. It's wild.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, And to your point, I mean people were clearly
her name preceded her, her reputation proceededs, so people wanted
to work with her obviously.

Speaker 5 (32:38):
Yeah, oh yeah, I think so. It's funny she talks
about flops. If you read you know, I've read all
of her books, her essay books, and a couple of
books with interviews on her, and she talks about her flops.
She talks very candidly about you know, having a hit
and having a flop and the difference in how they feel.
And you know, a lot of people in the industry

(32:59):
talk about, you know, you learn the most when you fail.
When you fail is when you learn things, and your
flops teach you something. And nor Efron is like, the
only thing a flop teaches you is that it can
happen again. Like She's just like, I learn nothing from
the failures other than I can fail again, and that's
good to know. And to celebrate the hits when they

(33:20):
come because you know, they're like they may not ever
come again.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Right. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Oh wow, Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. I mean, again,
that's a very different perspective to have on it because
I mean, so many people myself included, like.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
I don't want to talk about my failures. Please don't
force me to do that. I know, I'd rather talk
about the successes.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, but yeah, I mean that's fair, so kind of
transitioning and speaking of successes and failures and kind of
how that shakes out. Third question, what is the biggest
impact you feel nor Efron has had on pop culture
as a whole.

Speaker 5 (34:00):
This is such a hard question. I mean, obviously I'll
have what she's having as a tagline, although that is
a Billy Crystal line said by Rob Reiner's mom in
the movie. But but I think, I think the legacy
the biggest impact is that question about can men and

(34:20):
women be friends? And what is the relationship between men
and women? The way that she explores that in her films,
I think has had a massive impact on pop culture.
I think people still talk about that, that idea, that

(34:40):
that question all the time, and they bring up that movie.
I worked on a reality show once as an editor
about weddings, uh, and we did these interviews with real
life couples and they were called when Harry met Sally's
and they were basically shot the way that those interviews
are shot in the movie. And so I think, you know,

(35:05):
the interrogation of women and men as friends and or
lovers is absolutely undeniably something that that she has given us.
Meg Ryan's career, perhaps she has given us I mean

(35:26):
in large part, and and women telling their stories from
their personal lives very candidly. I know that myself and
several of my other female film like Her Friends, are
very much inspired by her in that way, her fearlessness.

(35:49):
That's a lot, that's a lot of answers. Sorry, that's
breaking my roles.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
I mean, please, this is your opportunity to, as we say,
wax poetically. So yeah, yeah, at any opportunity. I mean,
I clearly, I mean, I'm very curious what Ryan's answer is.
But I think you know, my answer, I don't think
will be any It will not be as eloquently put.
Let's put it that way. So, Ryan, what's your answer,

(36:15):
because my answer is probably more or less just what
Melissa said, but less eloquently put. It's more grunting.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
Probably on my end.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
I'm glad you go to me because I feel like
it ties into what Melissa just said. The way I
was going to say this is she she had this
uncanny ability to legitimize things. Rom Coms were not necessarily
frowned upon, but they were. They were in a down
period before the mid eighties. There were things that there

(36:44):
was a couple of hits, but man, the rom com
Hayde certainly hit around when she started hitting, and when
it hit, it hit hard, and they were great for
the next twenty or so years. We're kind of in
another Dan period, I would say at the moment for
great ron comes. But yeah, she legitimized that. She legitimized

(37:05):
talking about not even necessarily taboo things, but things that
people just straight away from in films for no reason,
Like even the line that Melissa brought up, you know,
the I'm having what she's having that would never happen
in other films around that time before then, and that
was like, oh, wait, people are human and they have sex. Yes,

(37:25):
we can talk about that.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
And then the the actual like frank discussions where I
mean not to just harp on it when Harry met Sally,
but it's I think it's the first one that kind
of set this bar on the especially in the rom
com side for her. But there are so many things
where you expect everything to be harmonious in a lot
of these films, and when Harry met Sally is certainly not.
There's there's a lot of misconceptions, people being misunderstanding each other,

(37:52):
people just just barely missing that moment of understanding what
the other sex is thinking or feeling, and it's it's
just life.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Like.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
She captured something that allowed filmmakers to have the ability
to be more realistic rather than just I don't know
this fantasy world of everything's perfect when it comes to relationships,
when it's clearly not. And if you want people to
love your movies, it's so much more relatable when you
write it in a Nora Efron way, which most likely

(38:21):
comes from the journalism side, because you're just you're talking
to real people, you're getting their experience and documenting that.
And when you have that ability to do that properly
in a script, you get literal masterpieces like she was
able to pump out time and time again, and yeah
that so much of what you said was it's just

(38:41):
if it's perfectly in line with that she's she's just
an incredible writer.

Speaker 5 (38:45):
Yeah, I agree, And I think the journalism and her
her because she's an essayist as well. There's that when
you read her essays, there's such a relatability and she's
not afraid to reveal parts of herself and reveal you know,
Insecurity is about a you know, one of the really
ground main things which she talked a lot about, Like
one of her books, which I have right here, is

(39:06):
I feel bad about my neck, which is basically like
I'm aging. Like that's the name of the book, and
she was able to say these things, but also makes
so much room for other people's experience of what was
going on. And I feel like we don't often talk
about the pathway from like essayist or novelist to screenwriter

(39:30):
or playwriter to screenwriter, and how being able to write
characters in this way and write even first person in
this way is such a bridge to what you're talking
about Ryan, that kind of depth and relatability.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
So so my answer is a little bit, I guess,
maybe on the nose, and you both have kind of
already alluded to it, so obviously in agreement with everything
you'll have already said, but I think.

Speaker 3 (39:59):
More or pacifically, as I like to jokingly say, I think.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Nora Efron introduced the world at large to Meg Ryan,
and I think like both have already kind of alluded to.
I think possibly the best things Meg Ryan has ever
done are Nora Efron's films When Harry Met Sally, You've
Got Male, and Sleepless in Seattle. Correct, all three of
those are Meg Ryan movies. Yes, her leading man is

(40:30):
the same in two of them, and then Billy Crystal
in one of them. But Meg Ryan is the same
in all three and so I think, I mean obviously
all of the other really important stuff aside elevating someone
like Meg Ryan, who at the time was not known
for rom coms to now that's what she's known for,
I think still is known for. Maybe now she's more

(40:53):
known as the woman who brought us Jack Quaid, which
is also a good thing in a lot of way.
But yeah, I think just elevating someone like Meg Ryan
and turning her into literally the person you go to
for rom coms for like fifteen years. If you want
a quirky female lead, Meg Ryan is your go to.

(41:16):
But when she works with Nora Efron is when she's
really elevated clearly into just into something more. And I think,
like you both have already alluded to, it's interesting that
a journalist is the one who brought us some of
the most memorable, if not important rom coms of all times,
because I think it speaks to this idea of understanding

(41:36):
what motivates people and getting to that very easily because.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
You're a journalist. That's part of your job as a journalist.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
So it's interesting that she's the one who ends up
writing the kind of the rom coms that set the
gold standard for rom comms. But at the same time,
when you think about what she was doing for a
living before writing scripts, she's just sitting and talking and
listening to people and synthesizing it into something entertaining as
it is.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
So yeah, I mean she's amazing obviously.

Speaker 5 (42:07):
Yeah, And I think like the beauty of Meg, Ryan
and Nora together was that because Meg has that had
that quirky, clowny, you know, aspect herself, which now I
think has gotten out of hand in terms of the
way we represent women in these films where they're kind
of like, I don't know how to.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
And you're like Manic Pixie dream Girls. Maybe is that Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Look at Ryan covering his face. We may or may
not have done an episode on Manic Pixie dream Girls.
I mayor I may or may not have said, I
really don't like these movies.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
I love how perfect that's going to fit on an
audio podcast.

Speaker 5 (42:47):
You're not gonna see that at all. I was dreaming, Okay, great,
thank you. But yeah, that's sort of that sort of
she had that that lovely you know, the sincerity of that.
But she also, like when Aery Metali, when she's she's
talking about why she broke up with with Joe, the

(43:09):
the guy that that knew Harry and who they run
into the airport, and she's start telling that that mom.
It's like a beautiful monologue about how they thought, you know,
they didn't want kids and they would have this life,
and then they don't have this life and and they
realized what that that they weren't in the kind of
relationship they wanted to be. And it's so grounded and

(43:29):
it's so beautiful and it's really painful. And what she
was able to bring out in Meg Ryan, you know,
was the swing of that how Meg Ryan had all
of that depth, but also the charm and the the
clown sensibility to be funny and and you know, sing

(43:52):
terribly uh to uh you know, out of karaoke machine
and that in that movie, which is really one of
the funniest scenes for me, when she's trying to sing
in the Sharper Image. I know, and I know, Chris,
you don't know what we're talking well what I'm talking about,
but you will, but you will.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
I was like, I don't yet, I don't ye.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
I wonder when when and if we do a Meg
Ryan episode if if the answers will be like essentially.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
All Nora Efron stuff as well, because I'm sure someone
will want to do it.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
But I think is like, oh, like that is when
Harry met Sally going to be the foundational title for
Meg Ryan. I think it might be if it isn't
the obvious answer.

Speaker 5 (44:32):
So I feel bad for Meg Ryan because she's sort
of been, you know, as Hollywood does, just sort of
got pigeonholed, and she didn't really try to break out.
She tried to make that movie, she made that movie
with Andy Garcia about being an addict. I remember that movie,
and but she could never really get out of of

(44:52):
that perception. She's also in Nora efron adjacent movie Hanging Up,
which is about Nora and Delia and there's so and
directed by Diane Keaton, which is fascinating.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
So I was going to say, speaking of Diane Keaton,
there we may be on our final question, have a
transition into Diane Keaton thing. But before we go to
the final question, as we tend to do, Melissa, anything
else from Nora Ephron's body of work worth mentioning before
we transition to the final question.

Speaker 5 (45:25):
Ah, something else worth mentioning, Yeah, I would say, we've
mentioned You've Got Mail a few times, but I wouldn't.
I wouldn't overlook You've Got Mail as a as a
really interesting piece because it's a piece about romance, yes,
and about the dawn of the Internet and.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
A boy, what a specific title for a movie, right,
But it's.

Speaker 5 (45:54):
Also so about you know, the capital is them, and
in it's a way, it's a it's a very somewhat
naive but but charming look at like, hey, maybe maybe
you know the big bad isn't going to come for
all the little stores, and you know there's there's stuff
in there. I don't know how sadly as time is

(46:17):
passed on, I'm not sure. I think it looks a
little naive in hindsight, but it's nice to go back
to that.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Feeling how pastoral a film like that truly feels. Indeed,
I'm a little disappointed nobody's mentioned the film that I
was hoping to get more information without having to watch Michael,
a film where John Travolta plays nice angel Ryan Trace alone.

Speaker 5 (46:43):
Here's the thing I really love. But angels like that
was actually a thing I was going to suggest because
I have a thing about the movies about angels. But
I find Michael and I love William Hurt, and I
love Robert Pastrelli and I love Jean Smart Like there's
a lot of great people in that movie. I find
Michael like perplexing. I find it one of the harder

(47:05):
ones to to advocate for. I don't know, Ryan, what
is what is your experience?

Speaker 2 (47:13):
I remember cringing through this movie entirely because it feels
so awkward to watch something about John Travolta in this
is just yeah, off putting in a very weird way.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
I just remember the trailer for.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
The movie, like God, all I remember is the trailer.
That's it, And I just remember the trailer coming off
as like bizarre and kind of insufferable.

Speaker 5 (47:40):
The tone is very strange. I feel like similar than
to Mixed Nuts. Like I think Mixed Nuts I enjoy more.
But I think the tone in both of those movies
is like where are we? I'm not sure and I
don't know that it really came together in the end tonally,
either of those films.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Well that that was the only one I was interested
in learning more about, and they're having to go and
watch it.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
So its sleepless and Seattle got skipped over a lot tonight.
Also want to say that movie is great. We didn't
go into a lot of detail, but the this is
I think the second pairing of Tom Hanks and Meg
Ryan and this one, I mean the Joe versus the
Volcano is decent. But Sleepless and see, well it's this
first with Nora Efron.

Speaker 5 (48:29):
But that's right, yeah, second together. Yeah, I think you're right.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Yeah, Uh, Joe versus the Volcano is good and it's
a classic Tom Hanks but it's it's it's more of
a Tom Hanks film than a Meg Ryan film. This
really shows both of them. Like again it's Nora Efron.
Both of these characters are well well rounded, perfectly written,
and it's a super touching story but kind of similar
to You've Got Mail, very of its time, not something

(48:53):
that is realistic. Again, probably not not something that's gonna happen.
It's a very different world than it was back then. Uh,
it's a great movie and and honestly just super cute.

Speaker 5 (49:04):
It's a really good story. I love Sleeples in Seattle.
I also really love Bill Pullman and Sleepless in Seattle.
I feel like it's an underrated Bill Pullman performance Billy Polly.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Come on, who doesn't love Bill Pullman?

Speaker 5 (49:17):
Love Bill Pullman. Yeah, we we at our with our
staff and high Ball. We had a we do these
like matchups with actors and we we we do like
different like Tom Cruise and Tom Hanks, and then we
did Bill Pullman and Bill Paxton and then you have
to like choose which one. It was very contentious, but uh,
but I pulled very hard for Bill Coleman because, uh.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
There are a few actors that I love more than
Bill Pullman.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
There you go, Wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Yeah, I love I mean, I love that he.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Uh have you seen the documentary where he talks about
how much he loves eating fresh fruit. That's a real thing.
It's a real thing. I think it's called The Fruit Hunters.
And it also it also revealed that I believe something
happened to Bill Pullman at one point in his life.
I think it was when he was in his early twenties.

(50:05):
He lost his sense of smell completely, like since he
was like in his early twenties, which sounds fucking awful,
just like the one of the worst things, because your
sense of smell affects a lot of things, but he
talks about it in this documentary and he's like, I
love eating fresh fruit because it's one of the few

(50:25):
things I can taste because it's so strong tasting.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
I'm not making this up.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
It might sound fake, like it was some sort of
weird monologue I pull out of my back pocket here,
But is a real thing.

Speaker 5 (50:36):
I'm gonna look that up for sure. I love.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
But it's like, but yeah, Bill Pulman's great. What's the
there's a rom com that he's in with while he
was sweeping Sandra Bullock, right.

Speaker 5 (50:47):
One of the best rom comes out there. I highly recommend.
Also a great Christmas movie. It's like one of those
Christmas adjacent movies that I highly recommend. I will say
there's a there's a great anecdote and the thing I
respect about Nora Fron's much from Sleepless in Seattle that
Tom Hanks says in that documentary about her that her
son made and she had come on board. There was

(51:09):
supposed to be a different director attached to that filmb
and then I think then Tom Hanks got attached, that
director left and she came on board. She did a
rewrite of the script and then they cast it, and
they started filming and they were a couple of days
into filming and the kid that they had cast to
play his son, you know, auditioned very well and then

(51:32):
on set I think he was really starstruck with Tom
Hanks or something and he just wasn't connecting. And so
Nora Ephron went up to Tom Hanks on set and said, listen,
don't worry. I see what's happening. We're taking care of it.
They'll be a new kid next week. And Tomks was like, oh,
you're just gonna go fire this kid. She was like, yeah,

(51:53):
he's not working. We're just this kid. And Tom mortified
for the child that felt so bad, and Laura would like, no,
we can't.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
The whole movie it hinges upon this relationship between you
and your son. This kid's out, and uh, I love
that story and the and the kid and you know,
Tom Hanks and his son in that movie are so great.

Speaker 5 (52:14):
And she was right. If it hadn't have been that connection,
i'd've been there. And you can't buy into that movie.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
I like that cutthroat like fact yes no origin Cory
hem no, I'm.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Just saying.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
No, no, And and keeping with being recast in things
that original child was somehow Also Eric Stolts.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
From we have footage of the first seventy five percent
of the movie with them still.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Yeah, right, let's just go reshoot the gardamn thing.

Speaker 5 (52:48):
He's doing this really serious take and it's not really working,
and so they're like, no, no thanks.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
So uh to bring this home?

Speaker 6 (52:58):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Melissa, ask question is who, who or what would be
a cinematic bridge to Nora Efron. So if someone is
a fan of something else, whatever this thing is, they
might also enjoy Nora Efron. So where do you come
in on this question? I'm very curious what our answers
are going to be here and if there, if any
of them are the same.

Speaker 5 (53:19):
Yeah, this one's also it's also very tough for me.
I I am. I can't give you one answer. This
is the story of my life. People are like, what's
your favorite actor? I'm like, I'll give you ten.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
That's the right answer.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Though, to be fair, it's like, you know you're asking
the wrong person this question.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
If you want an easy answer.

Speaker 5 (53:41):
I will say that if you like adaptations, this is
very like esoteric. But if you're a fan of adaptations,
almost everything that she has made is an adaptation or
includes the idea of an adaptation in it. So most
of her films are based on books like Julie and Julia,

(54:04):
like this is My Life. But then you Know You've
Got Mail as a remake of Shop around the Corner.
Sleepless in Seattle uses an affair to remember as connective tissue.
And so if you're a person, and I am this
kind of person, so I guess this is why I
chose this. But who likes when a movie has other

(54:31):
peripheral pieces of content, whether that's you know, an you know,
a story, or if another film or music, there's something
about like because what it means is you can go down,
you know, uh, you can get deeper and deeper into it.
For instance, two Christmases ago, Matt and I did two

(54:53):
double features where we watched A Fair to Remember followed
by Sleepless and Seattle, and then we watched Shop around
the Corner followed by Uh, You've Got Mail. And there's
something so lovely about watching those classic films, those older
Hollywood films, and then watching these modern adaptations. So I
think if you're if you're someone who likes adopted material,

(55:16):
and honestly, if you're a person who likes food. Nor
Efron loved food, and every one of her movies has
sort of iconic moments around food. Obviously Julia and Julia,
but but also you know, Sleepless and Seattle. We've mentioned
that scene before. There are so many moments in her

(55:38):
films where where food and New York City food and
New York City as a as the unit are featured.
Is she loved food and she loved New York City
and they really had her heart. And if you read
any of her essays, she talks about both of those
things a lot, and I think she has defined sort

(56:00):
of how we look at New York City in a
lot of ways on film, you know, from that time, Hurt,
I mean there's obviously other people, Woody Allen and that
you have also obviously contributed to that aesthetic, but certainly
Nora is one of those people.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yeah, I mean, when Harry met Sally that the line
it's known for, I mean, is is in Kats's Delhi.
I mean people go to Kats's Deli for that alone, obviously,
So yeah, yeah, and actually Julie and Julia, it came
out like four years too early because it was just
like right at the cusp of like the food like
mainstream glomming on finally thankfully like giving a shit about

(56:44):
what we eat and not just like it's just bullshit
and Julie and Julia was like right at the cusp
of like that trend finally thankfully taking off. I mean
imagine if it had been made in like twenty fifteen,
it would have been like people would have been like
lining up for them, because again, like, yeah, Ryan, what's
your answer on this one?

Speaker 2 (57:05):
This may have been one of the most difficult ones
for me yet for any of our episodes, because Nora
Efron is singular. She is somebody that like, there's not
really an easy way to compare her to someone else
like this. And so I was sitting here going, you know,
do you go down the rom com routes and think
of somebody else that's okay at writing rom comms? Do

(57:28):
you go down somebody that writes good characters? And then
the thing that I realized kept popping up in my
mind is there's one other writer alongside Nora Efron for
me that I can tell from a mile away that
they're the ones that.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Wrote the film.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
It's somebody that also started directing films late into their career.
We happened to allude to one of their films earlier
in this episode, one of their well, probably their worst film.
I'm going to say, if you happen to like Aaron
Sorkin and that worst film I was talking about is
The Ricardo's or Being The Ricardo's or whatever it's called.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
Starring as Lucille Ball.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Yeah, Aaron Sorkin is a writer that is incredible at
doing dialogue and characters the right way. Now, a lot
of these films are not rom coms. Some of them are,
there's a couple, But the way that he writes these
characters I would honestly compare a little bit to the
way that we got some of these iconic characters from

(58:28):
Nora Efron. Aaron Sorkin is great with interactions. That's probably
the best thing. His dialogue and his ability to write
dialogue in a realistic way, which is a talent that
a lot of writers do not have. A lot of
times the dialogue comes across as robotic or contrived beyond belief.

(58:50):
But something about Nora Efron and Aaron Sorkin the way
that their characters respond to things said to them you go,
oh yeah, I could see like why somebody in that
situation would say that it makes sense. I'm all in,
I love this movie Let's go So yeah, I would say,
if you like yournsorcin films, you might find a bridge
into Nora Ephron because the characters that he writes, the

(59:14):
interactions are similar in a unique way to Nora Efron.

Speaker 5 (59:20):
Interesting, I answer, I like it.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
So with baited breath.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
So it's funny, Ryan, you and Melissa you've both kind
of mentioned the singular nature of Nora Ephron, and Ryan
you just alluded to the idea of like, how could
one compare Nora Efron to anyone because she is so
singular in what she does. So I think less than comparing,
but more pointing out another singular talent, and again one

(59:56):
that writer director for the most part, I think exclusively.
And also I think the thing that definitely is kind
of the bridge is, like you mentioned right at the top, Melissa,
you know, everything is copy, everything is fair game. I
think this person might even say, like, now my life
has become my movies, and my life is stranger than

(01:00:18):
the movies I write, which are strange in and of themselves.
Now again, this person's name may cause some people to recoil,
which is unfair and is what we do for a
living is talking about film and the people who make them.
Films are made by human beings. So just remember, I
would say, if you're a fan of Woody Allen, it
would be a pretty obvious choice to say Nora Efron might.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Be in your wheelhouse.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
They were best They were maybe not best friends, but
they were friends. They knew one another, they worked together.
Nora Efron was in The only movies she acted in
were Woody Allen movies. I believe, and I mean he
is a singular talent. His personal life and everything else
is not what we're talking about here. We're talking but again,

(01:01:02):
his personal life has kind of become as insane and
strange as the movies and the situations He puts the
characters of himself in his films, So it's kind of
like your life is imitating art. But Woody Allen's films
are all written very specifically like Woody Allen because he's
the one writing them, and they you know, what's a
Woody Allen movie When you watch it, there's very little

(01:01:26):
doubt in your mind. If you sit down to watch
a Woody Allen movie, you kind of know what you're
going to get for the most part. You may not
know exactly how it's going to be presented. But well
written characters, well written dialogue, believable three dimensional characters. And
I mean again, we pretty much said the same thing
about Norafron, So it felt like kind of a not
necessarily an obvious choice. But again, for talking singular talents,

(01:01:48):
you know, they're kind of in the same ballpark.

Speaker 5 (01:01:51):
I feel like, yeah, and you know New York's sensibility.
I'm away New York talk and relationships between men and women,
and for sure there's lots of connective tissue there, I
would agree, Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
I know he's not a popular topic, but you know,
at the end of the day, he has made a
lot of movies. He's made a lot of really great movies.
And he's made one of my favorite movies, which is
Annie Hall, which is a romantic comedy, and Annie Hall
is in I mean, the movies that Nora Efron was
making are in that same vein of like, let's have

(01:02:26):
a serious conversation about relationships. I mean, one of my
favorite rom com slash relationship movies, The reason I like
it so much is because it's written genuinely, which is
Forgetting Sarah Marshall, which it feels.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Like it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Needs to be mentioned here because I think it owes
a lot to Nora Ephron as well in terms of
just writing a serious relationship honestly and being honest about
the way relationships fall apart.

Speaker 5 (01:02:56):
Oh yeah, I would say Jason Siegaal is definitely the
next sort of next in line in the rom com
space to do really interesting ones like forgetting Sir Rushall.
Five year engagement I think is really underrated with Emily Blunt,
and I think similarly like like you were saying earlier, Ryan,

(01:03:17):
like complicated relationships not clear and really vulnerable people being
really vulnerable. And I think I think that's bang on
in terms of Jason Siegel as he started making romantic
comedies for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Yeah, and again being honest with your audience I appreciate,
and that's you know again. I mean, you can watch
a dime a dozen rom coms out there that they
end up together in the end, but I'm not necessarily
sure I want to see that. I think I'd rather
have a dose of reality, and sometimes reality is needed
to kind of cleanse the palette.

Speaker 5 (01:03:52):
And sometimes I like when they even if they do
end up together, that it's it's not easy or it's
not then perfect. You know, they're they're together, but it's
not this perfection. You know they're going to have issues
moving forward, but they've decided by the end of the
film that they want to go through those things together.

(01:04:15):
And that is far more satisfying to me than, oh,
these people are perfect for each other and they just
had to figure that out and now everything is going
to be great, Because that's absurd, it's happened. That's a
fantasy film, you know, it's not a romantic well.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
And that's the thing. I mean, I think we've really
kind of danced around it. But like the grounded nature
with which Nora Fron rights is, I mean, it's important
and I think it's again in a in a genre
like rom coms that are full of just, I don't know,
puerile ways of thinking about the reality of things. I mean,
I'm not saying everything needs to be serious and you know, Maudlin,

(01:04:57):
but it would be nice if people were honest from
time to time about these kinds of things. And Nora
Efron feels like she wants to have an honest conversation,
which I appreciate because, like you alluded to, Melissa, staying
together is often not only the hardest thing to do,
but it is the harder of the two choices. And
Nora Efron's movies and things that she talks about in

(01:05:17):
her essays and stuff clearly get to the fact of like,
life is not easy. It is messy, and that can
be entertaining in and of itself, I guess, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:05:26):
And the duality of love and of relationships that there
is the wacky, fun, silly side of things, and there's
the difficult truth of day to day life and of
being with somebody and knowing them that intimately. I think
what Noura really understands is to know somebody that intimately

(01:05:49):
is both the most rewarding thing that could happen, but
also the most challenging thing. To live with somebody and
to show yourself, to show those intimate sides of yourself
is is so difficult, and she is able in those
films to really show the balance of that. I think
that's why When Harry Met Sally is such a check

(01:06:12):
mark for people when it comes to rom coms, because
it really does explore the pendulum of that of like
this is the greatest thing and this is the hardest
thing at the same time, and that's life. And isn't
that wonderful? You know?

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
Does like Chris needs to watch it?

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 6 (01:06:34):
I know my heart cell just gets harder as I
feel personally attacked and disappoint sounds like you need to
watch it, Chris, Huh, Like, yeah, you're probably right.

Speaker 5 (01:06:48):
If you're a fan of Harry Connick Junior or jazz
music of any kind, you will also like our Afron movies.
And I want to say that because again, as a
fan of that kind of music, she really uh, she
created a on r in and of itself.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
There.

Speaker 5 (01:07:01):
I think of the romantic comedy with like gentle contemporary jazz.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
That's what I'll That's what I'll say, Harry Connick Jr.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I love him a brand new genre, Yeah, with contemporary jazz.

Speaker 5 (01:07:15):
Contemporary jazz, that's right, contemporary, the contemporary that makes it new.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
I can only think of Harry Connick Junior an Independence Day,
which is a me problem, not a you guys problem.

Speaker 5 (01:07:27):
I think he'd be happy with that. I don't think
he's have a problem with that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
Highest profile thing he's done for some people.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Sure, So before we round out the episode and go
to h plugging the things that we work on, anything
else we want to say about Nora.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Ephron, Thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:07:44):
I want to thank you about Nora Evron. I want
to say thanks to you for dreaming an opportunity to
talk about I love her so much and uh and
I want to I want to say that I hope
she continues to get her do. I think she was
a director, same as I think like Penny Marshall and

(01:08:06):
Nancy Myers, and there's a there's a whole, you know,
group of of directors of women at that time who
were making blockbuster movies and excellent movies. Penelope speirits like,
I think there's just, uh, they get overlooked a lot
because of when they were making movies and they weren't

(01:08:27):
o tours in the way that we often, you know,
we we hold up people like Square Sase or Tarantino
or people where we're like, it's this dude and he's
making the movie and it's him, which also isn't true most.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:08:47):
That I think, like I hope that this generation of
women filmmakers, I mean Nancy Myers is still making cool movies.
But but I think that I hope that you know,
us talking about them and encouraging people to look at
even into the catalog, into the deeper cuts, means that
they become more a part of cinema history when we
talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
Nancy Meyers showed up on our Meryl Street episode because
I'm pretty sure one of my answers was, it's complicated.

Speaker 5 (01:09:13):
So it's complicated.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
Yes, it's a movie.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Yeah, I love yes, I mean honestly, like you know,
the fact that Nancy Myers didn't come up until right
as we're about to be done with the episode is surprising,
h more than anything else. Now, this has been a
This has been a fun episode. And yeah, I guess,
I guess now I finally have to watch when Harry
met Sally.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
Uh, yeah, you do you but it's you. Yeah, I've
been doing me my whole life up until this point.
So it was and it wasn't enough.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
I didn't Yeah, I mean again, I got all the
way to this point in my life without seeing it.
So it wasn't enough. Nothing, nothing was enough at this point.
I've been to kats Is Deli too. On top of
everything else. It's like you would have thought, like, oh,
you've been there, now go watch the movie that's set there,
at least for one the one of these scenes. So nope,
So I don't know. I got with some weird blind

(01:10:09):
spots as they were with cinema.

Speaker 5 (01:10:11):
So oh me, I mean me too, huge, huge, what
are you going to do? Yeah, there's still only so
much time and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Right, so yeah, yeah, that's the show.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Yeah, right, that is the point of the show is
just to make our respective lists longer of things we
need to watch.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
That's the way. That's the way it feels.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
So Melissa, when you're not here talking to us, or
are doing you know, other podcasting or stuff like that,
what keeps you busy? Where can people find the things
that you work on? All that, all those good opportunities
to talk about yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:10:44):
Again, great, thank you. So as a nager, before we
co founded, my husband and I co founded a streaming
service called Highball TV that's available worldwide, and so we
have a catalog in the US as well as Canada
where we come from and built the company. And my
film Mother of All Shows. I'm not sure where it

(01:11:06):
will be out yet, it definitely is on iTunes and
like Google Play, you can rent, you can buy as
of July twenty twenty four, so look out for that
with Wendy Malick. It's a musical. It's a mother daughter story.
I'd like to think that Nora Efron might be into it.
It's my hope and it's certainly a lot of it.

(01:11:27):
There's actually a line in it from when Harry met
Sali that I slipped in that I say, it's a
Carrie Fisher line, but I threw it in there as
an homage to nour Efron.

Speaker 3 (01:11:39):
See there you go.

Speaker 5 (01:11:40):
Yeah, you can catch me. You can catch me on
high Ball TV. And I have looked for my projects
on all the places that you bod movies.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
Are you Ryan?

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
You can look up the company someone's favorite productions. You
can find all kinds of podcast that we produce. You
can find the magazine that we produce. You can find
the physical media releases that we do special features on.
We would love to try to get you to watch
some of those. So yeah, give it a look.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
And as for me, Weirdingwaymedia dot Com is where you
can find all the things that I work on, which
were lots of episodes with Matt at one point, many
moons ago, I do remember Matt making an impassioned plea
for Ghostbusters twenty sixteen. Matt has always had opinions that
I might not agree with, but I love that he
is as impassioned making them as anything else, which you know,

(01:12:36):
I you know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
It's a good thing. So yeah, you must like him
for a reason.

Speaker 5 (01:12:40):
So it's true. And his passion, his passion for wildly
controversial opinions that very few other people hold is one
of the reasons that I let.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Hell yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
Yeah, some to be said for a provocateur. So yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
But you can find everything that I work on over
at weirdingwaymedia dot com. As for this show, like rate
and review it on iTunes, smash punch whatever the like button,
Maybe don't be aggressive with the like button. Hit the
like button, don't even hit it, click on it. It
doesn't deserve your hate. It doesn't. Everybody else is so aggressive.
We don't need to be part of that like weird

(01:13:21):
aggressiveness with the like button. Melissa, thank you so much
for joining us. This has been great.

Speaker 5 (01:13:25):
Thank you, it's been a real pleasure

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
And as as always, we hope that you continue to
travel down film roads and tangents, and that maybe you
let us be your guy.