An Interview With Susan Werner (Rebroadcast)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Barbary Lane. Welcome to a very special edition a Full
Circle the Podcast. I'm your host Martha Madigal and I'm.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Your host Charles Tyson Junior.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
We have a very special guest today. She is truly
an American treasurer. Not only is she one of the
finest musicians, a brilliant songwriter, and a seriously gifted singer.
She explores genres of music like none other. She's one
of the most talented and funniest live performers we have
ever seen. And we got to spend last Saturday night

(00:51):
with Susan Warner. Welcome to the Full Circle Table.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
I am really happy to be here, and thanks for
inviting me. Absolutely, I was so excited to meet you
Saturday because you're pals with my friend Elizabeth Williams, and
Elizabeth attracts the best energy around her. She is just
she is just moving the world forward in the most
wonderful way. She always has been. And so when I

(01:19):
met you and we were talking and you said a podcast,
it was easy to say, hell yes, because I'm so
interested in having more time with you, and so we'll
have time together with you know, microphones and cameras.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
On microphones and cameras. And by the way, wine.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Cheers and the little wine cheer cheers.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
This is this is coffee. No, it's not. No, it's
not you.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
But did you see the mug? Did you see the mug?

Speaker 3 (01:44):
What does the mug say? Wait? Two, there's a lot
of those Christmas gift.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
It was a Christmas gift. My other buddy actually introduced you.
And it's also a long time I'm friend of yours.
Kathy O'Connell.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Kathy is the best, the best, the best. So Kathy,
as some of your listeners may know, it is the
longtime host of Kids Corner w XPN Radio, and she
has been there so long and created such a great
community between generations at XPN. And I said to her,
and I said, does Roger who runs the station, does

(02:24):
he know the value that you've brought to that to
that enterprise. And she said, yes he does. And I
was glad because kids though right to get kids listening
to you know, independent triple A radio, to get parents
to have parents listen, and then their kids listen, and
then the kids go to the shows and hear about
you know, they hear the music in the car, right,

(02:46):
and then they stay with those artists and it just
XPN introduces them to music a little out, a little
outside the mainstream. And for those of us that do
music outside the mainstream, it's a real blessing Station's like
the w XPN.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Oh absolutely, I'm sure is so great.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
I got to tell you that adults listen to her.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
I have put Shazam on auto for her show so
many times because I'm like.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
This is good? What is it?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
What is good?

Speaker 3 (03:12):
What is this her energy? It's about the energy, right,
this positivity that something good is going to happen and
I'm going to help make it so.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
And it does. And you know she was our twentieth episode,
is that right?

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Actually, because because she's my pal, like you know, she's
my sister, and you know, I knew that I could
always call on her, but I didn't want to do
that until I really felt like, Okay, there's a real
reason to bring Kathy on and talk with her. And
it was right after uv ald Texas and I said,

(03:48):
for Buffalo, I had read the names and I said,
I cannot do that here. I can't. But I wanted
a response and that was my response. Why is to
talk with Kathy and talk about playing the rainbow connection
and talking talk about how do we talk to kids

(04:08):
during these times? So, you know, it was a brilliant
hour and I'm so grateful that she did it. That
was the first episode of ours that they played at
Medway Pride was the Kathy episode. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
Wow, I just love it because because you know, a
lot of us, uh understand ourselves early in life as
in this as in this as in this fluid place
or this place where orientation and gender oriented, sexual orientation
and gender identity, you know, these things are are we

(04:44):
feel like we might be outside of whatever the Barbie
and Ken deal is. And and and that she speaks
so easily about it and so positively about it is
like it is good medicine. What she does is good medicine.
She delivers it.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
She yeah, yeah, And I wanted to say, you know,
none of this is a game. This is Kathy O'Connell, like,
you know, because half of my wardrobe came from Kathy O'Connell.
Do you like this? Do you want this? What do
you think of this one?

Speaker 3 (05:17):
So?

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, I mean she's just she's been there, you know,
certainly for me. We've known each other for twenty years
and she's just one of those people who's been there.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
She's a great American and she should have win. Like
they're given the Mark Twain Prize for Humor to I
don't know who this week or somebody. It's like, come on,
you know right, can we please get outside the Yeah,
I agree with these white guys with TV shows, it's
like come.

Speaker 4 (05:40):
On always And for years, yeah, for years, I've referred
to her as my personal media guru because she's always
got a song or an album or a book or
a movie or a television show for me to watch
or listen to, and it's always just what I need
in that moment.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
It's delight. I think that's the thing. She finds delight
in things, and she wants to share that delight.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
So yeah, it's true.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
It's something to aspire to be. I mean maybe she's
just that way all the time, but it's something to
aspire to be.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Oh yeah, it just is like she can't help it.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
She can't help it.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
She talks in show tunes, She speaks in show tunes
like that's and it always comes down to a show tune.
I'm like, man, it kind of does. Yeah, especially with you.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
I so I sent you this fangirl email because I
really did want to thank you for an amazing show.
I mean, we looked at each other and we it
felt like we had sat there for fifteen minutes.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
That's wonderful. That's the best praise and entertainer can ever
ever get, is that you know, the audience they forgot
that they forgot themselves or forgot the outside world for
a period of time. Yeah, and fifteen minutes out of
an hour and a half show all that.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
No, it was like, what does she mean they're done?
How could they be done?

Speaker 2 (07:03):
And I'll admit I was the one that was unfamiliar
with your work, but just hearing Martha and Kathy and
Elizabeth like go on and on about how wonderful you
are and how wonderful your music is. I was expecting
a good show and it was wonder I told you
it was perfect in every way, it really was.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
I thank you both for taking a chance. I mean
to go you've never seen before, right, And You're like,
I need a folks singer. I need this like a
hole in the head, right, what is this waste of
my Saturday?

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Night. It's only when it's a white guy with a
guitar when I go really like, unless it's John Flynn
or trout fishing in America, I'm like, I'm busy that guys. Yeah,
I'm like, yeah, I'm busy that by Yeah. And then
one of the people that works high up at XPN

(07:54):
mentioned a mutual friend's son was breaking into music and
she just looked at me, deadpan with everything she says,
it's deadpan, and she said, that's just what the world needs,
another white guy with a guitar. I was like, yeah, well, yeah, well,
you know.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
There's this there's this duo of of of black guys
and their and their gig is called Their Their duo
is called Black Violin. Yes, they're tremendous. Yes, just tremendous
because they're busting everything you think about, all your preconceived
notions about what black is and what a violin is.

(08:32):
It's like, wow, mm hmm, fantassic. That's doing the work
of God right there.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
I discovered them I in one of my dance classes
that I taught. One of my kids was playing one
of their songs and I was like, what is this
And she told me, and I was like, what is
the name of that album? Write that down?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
So I sent you this fangirl email and I said
to but I actually forwarded it to Elizabeth and I said,
I sent this note to Susan. Tell me this isn't creepy.
And she called me and she said, first of all,
that's a letter, that's not a note. If you ask her, she'll.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
Tell you whatever you sent me was wonderful. Well, and
I appreciated your kindness and your enthusiasm.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
I told you a little story, and I want to
tell you why I told you the little story I did,
so I told you about my friend Ghosha. Yes, Gosha
Iguano was a singer songwriter about ten twelve years older
than us. She was a prolific songwriter and just an
incredible musician. Piano was her primary instrument. She could pick

(09:49):
up a guitar, she could play the drums, she could
do a lot and when I by the time I
met her, she was doing sing along piano bar in
a gay bar at tavern on Comeack and she had
done piano playing like that all over the world. And
when we opened our bar, she called me and she said,

(10:14):
I got Thursday. You want Thursday, I said, I would
love Thursday.

Speaker 5 (10:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
So every Thursday from the day we opened till till
she was too sick to play, which was really quick.
Her illness was really fast. She was there every Thursday,
and we actually assembled a band. She called them the
Pickups because they were just the guy who hosted our

(10:42):
open mic night on Tuesday and a drummer that we
found at open mic night, and they became her band.
And one night she and it happened organically, just organically,
and one night she looked at me with tears in
her eyes and she stopped playing, and I'm looking across

(11:04):
the barn and I'm like what, And she said thank
you for this, because I never thought i'd have it again.
And I went them and she said them, and I went,
you're welcome. I heard there was live music tonight. Every
time they would start talking or go off on a tangent,
I would just that was my line. I'm like, I

(11:25):
heard there was live music tonight. So she started playing.
She said how fuck you, and then she started playing.
But Goosha so early in her career she worked for
as cap because and it was kind of named that
tune like if somebody sampled something in a new release,

(11:46):
she could hear it. She could hear it. And so
that was her job, was to just listen to new
stuff and find where they had placed someone else's stuff
and make sure they were paying for it. That was
her job. Yes, and she had this ear. She played
by ear. Everybody else at the piano bar walked in

(12:07):
with a roly cart full of songbooks. She walked in
with her car keys and a cup of Dunkin Donuts,
and that was it.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
She had it, and.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
She either had it or she didn't. And she would
put it in your key. She'd say, give me a
little and she could change keys in the middle of
a song, or she would tell you that's not a key.
Go sit down and hum for a while and I'll
get back to you.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
But I mean to say she had the gift.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
She had the gift.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
She had, she had ear. She had the ear, she
had the childhood ear that is just instant and pattern recognition.
And I would love to have met her, because I
learned too as a little kid, really early, and before
I knew notes or any such thing. It was almost
like math or colors or something. And she just sounds
like such an exceptional person that she could just pick
that up and just create magic like this, like a magician.

(12:55):
And I'd love to have met.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Her, And I'm sorry that you didn't, because you remind
me of her in that Gosha was music, and music
was Ghosha.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
Online.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
You can, in fact, some of her work has been
remastered and re released. Her brother is still living, Wow,
and he he just released an EP I guess right
of some of her stuff that was original stuff she
did with a previous girlfriend and tell Gosha and Teal

(13:32):
and it's out there and it's it's really good stuff.
And there's there's a million, you know, YouTube clips and
things like that. But one of the things it meant
was she was fully present as a human. That ability
to be a part of a song and and be
the music is what I saw when you stepped on

(13:56):
stage and played your first song. That's what you do.
I'm and it impresses me and touches me in the
same way. And I felt like I've Goosha said the
first And I told you this story. The first night
we met. She came over. She gave me a big hug.
She said, We've known each other one hundred years. And
we finally found each other again.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, And I just when you started to play, I
was like, I've known this soul and and I hear that,
and you know, I'm seeing you up here.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'm just honored that you know that.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well you you are music.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
You have someone that is really that was really deeply musical.
And also and on the other side of that, the
other the other part of that that really moves me, Martha,
is that Ghosha sounds like the kind of person who,
again we talked earlier about Kathy O Connell, like the delight, sharing,
the delight drawing, like I have found something delightful come
with me right that it's this generosity of spirit, and

(15:02):
I just feel really lucky. Music kind of found me
before I knew what I was even doing. When I
was three, I had eye surgery. I still have a
bad eye, but I wasn't very good with stereo vision. Okay,
so I didn't you know, I didn't get to run
around and play like all the things I wanted to play.
I had an eye that didn't work right. But there

(15:22):
was a little there was a little record player, uh
in our house on the farm. Long story there too,
But anyway, I played the record the record player over
and over and over. My mother says, like, I just
played it for hours. I would just stand there and
almost vibrate with the intensity of it. And then my
brother Old, one of my older brothers, brought a guitar

(15:43):
home from Saint Mary's Catholic Elementary School in Manchester, Iowa.
Why because Vatican two, right, John the twenty third, Pope
John the twenty third said, the Catholic Church can now
have groovy music.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yes, I remember this, okay, a huge.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
Right, instead of the old you know, sort of morbid
right that chant and such, which look that it has
its place. But what I remember is my brother came
home with a guitar and I was like, what is that?
And that was it? And I was five, and he
showed me three chords and I figured out the rest.
The guitar was bigger than I was. And I was

(16:24):
already playing in first grade at Masses at St. Mary's
Catholic School in Manchester, Iowa. I was already like work, Yeah,
well they didn't pay me, but but you know, I
was super motivated. I'm like, I love this, right, this
is the only gig in town, a town of five
thousand farming community, and he's like, oh man, this is it.
And so learning pattern right, pattern recognition and perfect pitch.

(16:48):
There's a there's a study that said, if you learn
an instrument before age of eight, yes, there's a good
chance that you will develop perfect pitch because what you'll
develop is a is a an eye hand like a
physical corollary to where, for instance, we're gonna just use
this hair clip, Okay, as example hair clip, You're gonna

(17:10):
be like thing, thing, thing, thing. You will hear thing
and you'll see this image like a key, write a
piano key, You'll hear it and you'll see it. And
if you see it, same with a guitar, a note
on a guitar fretboard, you will hear it always, you'll

(17:30):
identify it with a visual And that's what perfect pitch
comes from, is having this visual corollary to it. And
I was so lucky. I was already playing an instrument
at age five and then I could play piano and
I figured that out. And so by ear you were
talking about Ghosha. I think some of Ghosha's talent must
have come by learning by ear, just from within instead
of looking at a you know, a sheet music and

(17:51):
executing stenography.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
I'm still not completely convinced she could ever site read.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, you don't need to to be musical, It's totally
That's why I always feel sad when someone says, oh,
i'd love to learn, you know, piano, that I don't
read music right right as they supposed to have anything
to do with each other, and.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
I don't think they do.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
I didn't start playing until the seventh grade, so that
probably has a hand in why I don't have that that.
I was trying to be a music major at Temple
and theory was is not my friend.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
But you don't need theory to be a musical at all.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Well, luckily that's true. But like I can mimic, like
if you give me the note, I can sing it
back to you. But if you say give me an e,
that's okay.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
You don't need that either. I mean, the most important thing.
I had a great voice teacher at Temple, Harold Parker.
He was just tremendous, and he made singing so much
like speech. It was always about what are you communicating?
What do you communicating? What are you communicating? And if
you would start to get too enamored of your own noise,
right too, enamored of the noise coming out your own mouth. Right,

(19:00):
He would say, are you making sense or are you
making tone? Because you can make a beautiful tone and
it doesn't mean anything. It's made a pretty noise, which
is lovely, But what does it mean? And even in
singing in a foreign language, not that this is, you know,
not that this is let me know if I'm going
off on tangents here, but not at all. But even

(19:22):
if you're singing in a foreign language, which is part
of what a degree in vocal performance is about. And
why I happened to actually get degrees in vocal performance.
That's how I could get a scholarship. You know, I'm
a farm kid. We didn't have any money, right, but
I had a weird ear, so I could learn, you know,
German and French and Italian really fast. I could learn
how to sound it out, and then I could learn
how to read it. And he would say, even if

(19:46):
you're singing singing in French, do you know what you're saying?
And do you know what this word here means? Exactly
right here? And now say it like a sentence, and
now sing it, and that the emotion makes itself when
you speak. Right, If I tell you two that I
really enjoyed meeting you, I don't have to think to
put kindness or excitement in that. It's just really true, right.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
So it's almost like if I was singing you know,
I'm so excited I met you. I didn't add something phony, right,
I just said I'm excited to me and it sounds excited. Right.
There's no need to hydraulically arrange feeling when singing.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Right, right.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Just if it's making sense to you and you're authentically
connected to what it is you're singing and what you're saying,
it's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
That's the thing with authenticity. It's either there or it
is not.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
And you can, I mean, you can find your way
back to it, but you have to have a good
teacher who keeps reminding you say it like a sentence.
And often he would do this whole trick, like I
went to the seven eleven and I bought a diet pepsi,
and so you would be like, Okay, I went to
the seven eleven and I bought a diet pepsi and corn. Yes,

(21:06):
like you go into the sense of it instead of
thinking about the noise you're making. It's like a sentence.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
It's just okay, that's performing.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
I'm sorry, I'm going No, it's not in the.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Weds at all. It's not in the Weds at all.
I never thought for a second you didn't want to
be right there on stage.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
It's the best. Yeah, let's show people a good time.
Let's have a good time. Life short. No, that's right, Yeah,
let's have a good time right now.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah. I invoked you during our last podcast because Charles
does a fifteen minute fave before our first break. Every time.
He just whatever song is in his head that week. Yeah, whatever,
like the two songs that were in his head that week.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Like my my fifteen minute fave is like in that moment,
it is my favorite song on the planet. And sometimes
that can last like three months, or sometimes it's like
fifteen minutes and then I hear another one. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
So but I never get I never get one. But
I said, my fifteen minute fave this week is free
your ass, and I want to come back from the
break on a few notes of that, and he did it.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
So I'm honored. My ass is honored.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
It was fun. It's such a fun song.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, it's going to end up being a fifteen minute
fave because one of the criteria is how deeply get
stuck in my head? And for the past two days
have been walking around going thank you, thank you, thank
you very.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Much, and for absolutely no reason, because I don't know
that Elvis even was in New Orleans for any reason ever,
but for some reason, it just showed up as part
of this.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
It doesn't matter, it belongs there.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
And I don't even associate with Elvis. I associated with
you because it's your voice. I'm here.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Well there was it, wasn't there a funk Adelic tune
that was for your mind and your ass?

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, free your mind and your ass will follow.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
That was it, And I was like, I kept thinking,
that's not it, that's not it, or I mean maybe
it was then, right, but now it's like, we gotta
get into the ass now.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
Ian you can think and think that that's not really
The medicine must come from below.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
I have this theory that there are two kinds of
songs for dancing. There are arm first songs and ass
for songs, and it just depends on what starts first.
And you don't know until it happens, sometimes you might
be surprised.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
It might be an interesting way to do a like
a playlist, you know what I mean, Like, hmm.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Right, I'm gonna this is, this is this is a
golden nugget. Arms first, Arms first, as first.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Could you just be staying there and all of a
sudden you start doing this and then they okay, this
is an arms first song. And then sometimes you just
feel it happen, like, oh, what's going on back there?

Speaker 3 (23:58):
Okay?

Speaker 6 (23:58):
All right?

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, you know there's one song that you know because
I was. I've been listening to you NonStop since the weekend.
I over prepare for everything, That's just what I do.
But there was one song I thought if I could

(24:24):
ask you where it came from, or ask you to
tell more of the story, I would. I'm not going
to make you guess which song. It just took me
a minute to find it. May may I suggest?

Speaker 3 (24:39):
So I played that song?

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Sorry night did I cried by the way way in
a very good way, In a very good way. I
have my own thoughts on the song because yeah, I mean,
I could share that with you, but I'd much rather
hear you share. There's more there's something behind that song.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Yeah, I hear you know. When I when I think
about a song of mine, I'm like, I kind of
give it a lot of scrutiny running down my head,
Like even right now, I'm like, Okay, what are the
strengths of that song? Where did I maybe not get
it to one hundred percent? So I'm like, okay, I'm
going to get past that, get past Susan the editor.
Let's get past that and put that away and then
we go here. So, uh, the song came about after

(25:22):
I got a phone call that my friend Fay Khan
had passed away. And fay Khan was a dancer in
Philadelphia and a performance artist, and she was just a
really special person and a self made person. I think
she grew up in West Philly. I'm trying to think, no, yeah,

(25:43):
and she was just she just put together a really
interesting life for herself, and she built, she built, She
built her work on her own terms. She just did
not with not with regard for what other people thought
of what she was up to, but what she herself
wanted to bring forth. She was a real artist and

(26:06):
I knew her. I met her at a breast cancer
support group. At University of Pennsylvania, and I had breast
cancer in nineteen ninety one, and I'm there and I'm fine,
by the way, but that's sort of one of those
big kind of right through the windshield years of your
life is going through treatment like that. And Fan I

(26:28):
just always had a lot to talk about right away.
And when she passed away nine years later, I remember
feeling like this something was coming, and it felt involuntary,
like a bad example is throwing up, but a feeling
like something is inevitable and you cannot stop it, you

(26:51):
cannot suppress it. And I just started kind of may
I suggest, I suggest that something was repetitive about it?
I suggest like this, And I do feel I'm not
one to say things like this, but I do feel
like somehow, you know, Fay was at work, or the
energy of Faye was at work in this way, like
just insistent, this is it, this is it, this is it,

(27:12):
this is it. Treasure now, treasure now, treasure right. And
so that's where that song came from, and it has
just gone so far. There's all around the world. There's
YouTube of people singing it at the whaling Wall. There's
a video of people singing it at like the Jesus
statue in Brazil, and it's just it's just fabulous. And

(27:32):
that's a song, you know, you don't write it sort
of writes itself. You just happen to the room. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Nice, Okay, So I feel like I got it right
because yeah, because that is what I felt in hearing
that song we're talking about right now, and it's I don't, well,

(28:00):
you know what I think I've learned. We're the same age.
Nineteen sixty five was a great year. I don't look
at my life and say that time was the best
or that time was the best. I don't. I don't
look back with regret or remorse, and even even in loss,

(28:22):
even in profound loss, I mean, Ghosha, I told you
she was my three o'clock. She was just there at
three o'clock. Never said hello on the phone, and you know,
she just started talking and I counted on that. And
for your.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Listeners, and maybe you mentioned this before, Marthur, but the
three o'clock, the three o'clock friend is the person who
calls you at three o'clock every day, Yes, and they
you just know someone's going to call you right around there,
And like you said, they don't say who they are.
They just start right, They just start in with can
you believe I got a fucking parking ticket? Jesus yes, fuck,
And I don't just write and there just belong. There

(28:59):
you go and there is and that's your three o'clock friend.
And then they're like, would you do today? And then
they listened because you're going at three o'clock.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
Back yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah that was her.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
That was just everyone deserves one and we're lucky if
we get too and we're lucky if we get to
be one.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
You know, yeah, yeah, that part, Yeah, it's true. But
I still, you know, I look back on that not
with regret, you know, they're certainly grief, but no today
like and I love that idea of may I suggest
that right now?

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Well now thanks for saying that. And even you know
what you're doing when you talk about Ghosha and the
three o'clock call your listeners right now, I have to
think that most of not all of them are like,
oh yeah, I want a three o'clock friend, or I
have a three o'clock friend, or I want to be
a three o'clock friend. Right, yeah, Ghosha gave you that. Yeah,
and you just gave some agosha to everybody who's listening.

(29:56):
It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
And you gave somebody. Now, is this an answer that
you are familiar with? I am, because the world is
this big, right, I knew a lot of Fai Khan.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
I never got to meet her, but I was friends
with friends of hers.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
Because you're so young, you're a fetus. Yeah, yes, I am,
You're still young.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
That's that's because each time I have to reinvent my life,
I go younger because someone's going to have to take
care of me.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, we don't know how that. We never know quite
how that's going to play out.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
We do know.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
That's why now no.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
No, yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed yeah, indeed here today and
go on tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
So for your ass, So for your ass, well, thank you,
thank you, thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
I think so. I think. So we're going to take
a quick break and then come back. I hope you're
gonna come back with us.

Speaker 7 (31:04):
Excellent walcome by the Mississippi, had a happy trip and
hippie And this is what she said to me.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
What she said, she said, free your ASTs and your
mind will follow.

Speaker 7 (31:24):
She said, loosen that bomb than rum. All your kids
swallow because we're here today.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
And we're gone tomorrow.

Speaker 7 (31:37):
Free your ASTs and your mind will thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 8 (31:51):
May Yeah, I suggeste you. May I suggest this is
the best part of your life. May I suggest.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
This time is blessed for you, This time.

Speaker 8 (32:19):
This blessed and shining almost blinding Bray.

Speaker 9 (32:25):
Just turn your head.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
And you'll begin to see.

Speaker 8 (32:31):
The thousand reasons that we're just beyond your say.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
The reason is wild wild suggesting you? Why suggest this
is the best part of your life?

Speaker 1 (32:57):
And we are bad?

Speaker 2 (32:58):
We're bad.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
You need a song? Do you have one?

Speaker 9 (33:07):
We do?

Speaker 2 (33:08):
We do?

Speaker 3 (33:09):
We do.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
We have a lovely couple of boys, uh Nat and Clint.
They call themselves the jingle.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
Berries, well for our purposes. Their their band name is
actually Frank Lloyd Wrong. Yeah, that's their that's their band
good name. Yeah, and they they claim that they are twins,
which is obviously false. But they are very very good friends.
And they wrote our theme music. Yes, Frank Lloyd Wrong,

(33:38):
Frank Lloyd Wrong. They're so awesome.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
They're great, fabulous musicians.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah, they really Frank Frank Lloyd Wrong. Reminds me of
Martha Graham. Cracker.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yes, I love her, We love.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
God.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Dido's fun because Dieto is a great musician. Yeah, you know,
really a fab list singer, sings live. Uh you know
does just what a great character he's created and so
much fun and I love fun. There's not we don't
have enough of it more fun.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
So you know.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
What I started to establish was you really are You
were a consummate musician. You're hilarious to watch, You're a
lot of fun. Your your songwriting is uh comparable to
any one as far as I'm concerned. It's brilliant. And
I can also understand what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
That all said, Yeah, voice teacher, right teachers, like what
I told you.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
You know, I told Elizabeth on Sunday, I said, Susan
is Gaga talented? And I say that was no irony.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Well I don't have the fashion gift.

Speaker 1 (34:56):
You didn't do the meat suit, And I said without
the meat suit, which was the hook. You know, you're
just fabulous. But you know, I do want to talk
a little bit because you know, nobody gets away from
here without I mean, the world we actually live in
and we try to make the best of it as

(35:19):
queer adults looking at the world and the way the
world is looking at us right now. And I can
tell you, especially as a transperson, the way our world
is looking at us right now isn't easy.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Easy at all.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
And why trans people have been selected now do you know,
Like in two thousand and four the presidential election in
the United States, so same sex marriage was the big
thing that was that was the thing that was going
to bring down the country. Here we are in twenty
twenty two, and same sex marriage has not changed.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Everybody's okay, they're all okay.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
I did not fall. And the transphobia bugaboo that they're
working on now right from the right. You know, somebody
pointed this out and it really it sounds right to me.
And again I'm a musician, I'm not a you know,
a political scientist, but it's a guess that and when

(36:19):
this person said this, I thought that sounds right on.
And I can't remember who said this, but they said,
you know, the whole transphobia thing is really about working
up Grandpa to vote Republican. Yeah, that's not about trans
people at all. It's about confirming a certain anxiety and
a certain generation and giving them, you know, confirming in

(36:43):
them their worldview in this one regard, so that they
don't wander to the left politically because of any other
of the million reasons you might and boy that wow.
And then one other thing, one other thing that it
came to me to say when I was thinking about
our conversation that we were going to have earlier today,
I thought, if we if we have a conversation about

(37:06):
queerness and transphobia and such, one thing that comes to
me to say is that the energy that tries to suppress,
the effort to suppress something is often it comes about
because there's energy breaking free. So the fact that trans persons,

(37:31):
trans people have are at this moment is because something's
something's busting loose. Something wonderful is busting loose, and there's
there are efforts to smash it because people are afraid
of what it is or how it's going to write,
how it's going to open the world and force open
some worlds that you want to be forced open.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Right, Yeah, that.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
That's count right. Where there's where there's political chatter, like
you're talked about, there's much conversation about Georgia, there's much
conversation about Arizona. Why is this because those states are shifting.
Anything that has the shift in it, and a change
like that's where the energy is and that's where something's happening.

(38:16):
And maybe I'm just old that I'm starting to see
these patterns, but it kind of helps to see them
as patterns. And maybe you know, that doesn't mean that
they're not awful, right, but maybe it means we can
we can hope they go away a little sooner.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
That is the hope.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
That is the hope, right that if we talk about
it and identify it as such simply a change, simply
another societal change, simply another way of being that we're
learning to identify and be gentle with that, maybe it'll
pass a day sooner. We can hope.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
We can hope, I hope. So you know the thing
I'm unnerved by, you know, and I talk to a
lot of young trans people all the time, and I
do try to you know, it is one of the
things I say is, these are the patterns. So far
the courts are holding all of this nonsense is unconstitutional.

(39:10):
Let's hold on. But it's it's when, folks, it's when
your friends start to pick up a kernel of truth. Okay,
So it's it's feminists suddenly saying that trans women are
a threat and saying, you know, you know there's something

(39:32):
to that, and it's like, no, no, you're actually you're
still afraid of CIS men, not trans women. Try to
make a distinction, and especially what we're seeing right now
with trans women in sports, in swimming, and what just
happened with that. You know, Leah Thomas won one race,

(39:55):
she swam in three, she competed in three, and she
won one. She is not herculean, she is not There
have been women over the last ten years even of
the same races that would have beaten her. So there's nothing,
you know, but the argument is being made that it's science,

(40:15):
and otherwise rational queer people are having these conversations saying, well,
you know, it's just the science. And then here we
are doing like separate but equal in which always works out, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
In competitive swimming, that always works out.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
And he's got do they not remember Jim Crow?

Speaker 8 (40:38):
Like what what.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
You know again? I think the energy behind like this
concern about trans women in sports, like it's always about that.
I don't know, you want to hear about transmen in
sports right right? In sports?

Speaker 1 (40:54):
And you won't because it doesn't fit the narrative.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
It doesn't fit the narrative. And again there's a narrative
being cooked up, and I think it's to serve you know,
some people with some you know who really need Grandpa
to be upset.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah, and fear is big business.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Fear. If fear is big business, will put it is.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
And you know, to go back to Harvey Milk, you know,
that's why it is so important. You know that folks
are just out. It's why it's why it's so important
that you know, we're visible, we're there, we're taking up space.
And then we can say, now you know a queer person,
Now you do know a trans person or you certainly

(41:37):
know of one because you've been listening to my voice.
So you know, let's move along. And it's I love
the analogy right now of you know, left handedness. At
the turn of the set, the turn of the twentieth century,
left handedness was like three percent of the population because
they beat you for it, they beat you for it. Yeah,

(42:00):
and when they stopped doing that, we found out, oh,
we leveled off around twelve percent. I am left handed.
I understand, you know, at least the analogy.

Speaker 3 (42:11):
And wow, I love that handedness.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah handedness Yeah. And folks are freaking out because a
lot of particularly adults, but it happened with children as well.
A lot of folks during the pandemic said I can't
do this anymore. I mean, I started to transition right
after my mother died, because it was never happening while

(42:34):
she was still drawing breath. But once she was gone,
I started looking through our glasses. So and you know,
change is going to come. But the pandemic really drove
home what am I waiting for? And the sky is
not getting any bluer, and nothing is going to change.

(42:55):
And I felt like everything everything that I wanted to
be able to do, or say or have was on
the other side of that stupid, simple discussion. That was
the thing I feared the most in life. And I
am I am not at all rare in that particular instance,

(43:16):
because we did The New York Times did a whole
spread in it where a lot of trans people who
couldn't go to work and couldn't be out on the
street and couldn't otherwise occupy their mindset. It's time I
reckon with this.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
It's time I reckon with this.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
Yeah, there's no doubt that, you know. Thinking that time
is short kind of moves us all along, right it is. Man,
if I'm going to do this, I'm gonna let's get
on with it. And I don't want to I don't
want to run out of time thinking I should I
could have what should have? The pandemic interesting too, that
maybe if we had time, I should should look up

(43:51):
that article that sounds so interesting it is, but also
that if we are left, maybe we're spending more time
by ourselves. We have time now to account for ourselves
in a way that we can say, I'm going to
be I'm gonna I'm gonna build a change from within
out instead of being concerned about other people's reaction. There

(44:12):
was a moment where we had more time to ourselves
and our own homes, and maybe we could steal ourselves
build ourselves up to strength with enough strength. I don't know,
I will never know this firsthand, but to transition is
to have strength from within and to say, if you're
having trouble with this, this is your trouble. This is
not my trouble. And it's one of the things that

(44:34):
is so wonderful about our friend Elizabeth is that. From
day one I met her, it was always if you're uncomfortable,
that's your discomfort. Yeah, oh yeah, And just I adore
how she just lives, you know, with that light coming
out and that strength, light and strength and equal parts. Really,
if I may tell you a little something about my

(44:55):
own story, I feel lucky in my life that I
grew up so big Catholic family, six kids, four of
us are queer. I love that oldest tour straight.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Right, that's how it works.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, we talked about this at the end of the show,
after after the show. And so my third brother is
a performing drag queen in Minnesota. He was already trying
on my mom's clothes from the time he was like
four or five six, And so his name is Robert
and he always he's he. He would always want to
be Roberta when he would try on my mother's clothes.

(45:28):
And so I grew up with Roberta as a fact.
You know, there was Bobby and there was Roberta. And
so if he would put on mom's clothes, he was Roberta.
And then we would just play whatever we were doing
as Roberta.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
Yeah, And it was a great gift early on in
life that it's like there's room like this in all
of these ways to be. It was a real gift
to all the rest of us. And this fluidity again
some people just right, oh, and it's such a gift.

(46:01):
Here's one thing I say about queerness is and I say,
it's like and if I had it took me a
while to come to to see this, but that those
of us who are queer are at an intersection. It's
almost like you're the corner store and you can see
both ways down the street.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
And it's a gift. If somebody doesn't decide they're going
to give you a hard time about it, but that
it's actually an advantage because you know more than one
way of being right right right, And just to celebrate that,
I mean, I guess that's a little bit of what
goes on in Canada with as they say, two spirit.
Do I have that right? Yeah, Like, look at it

(46:46):
as a it's a gift. Look at that right. You
have eyes on the side of your head, you can
see it all. You have a mirror, you have built
in mirror right, like like a recumbent bike. You got
the mirror back behind right, or the driveway mirror. I
guess that's what I'm thinking of it. You know.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
One of the I get audacious now and again because
I also write, and one of the essays primarily essays,
but one of them was called more than a Woman.
And I actually embedded the song because I had learned
how to embed songs like that day on WordPress. So
I embedded the song and I said, you know, if
we want to start breaking this down, I'm something more

(47:28):
than you, not less if you only have one way
of being in this world. I have had to watch
them all, and I've really had to examine them all.
And I tried all of your ways first, everything I
was told, everything I was taught everything, religion said, I've
done all of those things. Can you say the same, like,
can you say you have examined this world to come

(47:51):
to the place where you are. And I think that
that is true across the community. It is true of
being queer. It's like we once were sort of start
to know who we are. Of course we explore that
of course we're wrong, you know, and the rest of
the world must be right, and we don't know our minds,
or at least that's my experience. Of it, and it's like, Nope,

(48:12):
this is still it.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
This is still it. You know.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
The comedian Noel Kasler who I follow on Twitter. He
was a staff member on The Apprentice, Okay, and he
dishes the dirt on the Donald It's and it's it's
it's it's filthy, you know. I mean, he's you know,
the former guy is a filthy human being. Although you

(48:36):
can imagine, then some you can't even imagine. Yeah, but
Noel Casler says, and I think he's a I think
he's a heterois guy, but he says, you know, every
act of courage I've ever seen, it doesn't come They
don't come from CEOs. They come from the LGBTQ community.
They come from the Black community. They come from communities
that have to push back, and it's from individuals who

(48:59):
had to push back in their personal lives. And they're
the ones that understand how to take that energy out
and forward into the world and make good things happen.
Those are the ones who have courage. I agree, yeah,
because because because we have the courage in us. You know,
if I could speak about queerness for a minute, because
we were you were saying in the first you were
saying before we started the podcast, we're going to chat

(49:21):
about these things. So I mentioned that in my family
of six, four of us are queer, and you know
that was that was a real challenge because you talked
about religion earlier, Martha. Yeah, my folks are farmers and Catholic,
and being born in the nineteen thirties as they were,
there was just no there was no manual for handling

(49:42):
any of this right now. So I think my sister
came out first as a lesbian in college, and this
really rocked their world. And so Bob waited, my older brother,
Bob kind of waited because that had been quite a shock.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
And then.

Speaker 9 (49:58):
In college I began sleeping with women and I kind
of like that too, and I'm like, oh, well wait,
but wait, I like guys, So what is that?

Speaker 3 (50:09):
What is that? What do I do with that? It's fun,
it's fun, but it took me a while to get
beyond sort of the idea of it had to be
one or the other, right, right, right? And then bisexuals
were seen in that moment. A bit of queer history here.
Bisexuals were seen at that time in like the late eighties,
Elton John right, or you know had made a stop

(50:32):
on the bisexual you know, made it stop on the
train at the bisexual stop, because you have to write, okay,
that's how you ease some people into being right right.
And it was so bifurcated binary that I was not
able to really understand myself as a bisexual until like
the late nineties, early two thousands, and I'm like, oh, oh, right,

(50:56):
you can just be bisexual, hullo. Yeah, but it was.
It took a while for all of this to firm up.
And then in like two thousand and six or so,
my younger brother sends a letter to all of us
siblings and he does it in a form of an
interview and he says, so, Mark, do you have some

(51:18):
news for us? And he says, yes, well I'm gay.
You're gay? And Mark says yes, I'm gay. And the
interviewer says, so how many of that? How many of
you does that make now? Who are gay? And he
said all four seven hundred and fourteen of us? Like right,

(51:40):
he did it in a form of an interview.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
And you know, my parents finally I think they just
out of exhaustion, gave up.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
At least we threw two straight ones.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Yeah, and then with time, of course, it's all gotten easier.
You know, really it has gotten easier. And I think
the treasure the kids they have, Yeah, and that we
show up. You know, if you show up, that helps
a lot too.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Well, yeah, you still have both of your parents.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
I do, and I can't even believe that. It feels
so lucky. I fly and they're themselves. That's the thing.
At eighty nine and eighty seven, that's great. Wow, I
know it. I know it. And again now every day right,
every day treasure. But to speak about queerness, I wanted
to kind of tell the family story there and say,

(52:31):
you know, I wonder if in the future, if you know,
if parents have fewer children, I don't know, well, they
have fewer gay children. I don't know. You know, we're
going to find out about all that. I guess it's
oh yeah, I don't think it works that way, does it.

Speaker 8 (52:46):
No?

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Because I had a friend in college. He was one
of four. It was him, his brother, and two sisters,
and all of them were gay. Uh huh sure, And
I was like, wow, there's.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
A little bit of science that says like the more
boys in a family, the more likely that later ones
will be gay. Like I have two friends who are
the youngest two in their family. They're both gay. Like
the other six or eight or whatever, there are straight,
but it just like there's that, And I think there's
also something to the older women in particular are when

(53:24):
they become parents, the more likely it is that they're
going to have queer kids. We don't know why, you know,
the hormone thing, the soup, the whatever. You know, however
this all works. You know, as you talked about that,
there was an interesting thing, and I want to I'm
going to credit Julius Serrana with us, but I'm not
positive it came from her. But it's this idea that

(53:51):
when or at least when we were younger, when women
came out as by and we are both by when
women came out as by, what women were told was well,
she's just experimenting. Yeah, right, when men come.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Out as buy, they're gay and they don't want to
face it, thank you.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
And isn't it interesting that it also it all means
worshiping the dick. Isn't it an interesting theory?

Speaker 6 (54:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Isn't everyone is confused about their love.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
For the dick?

Speaker 3 (54:22):
God? And my friend Laura. I don't know who's a
trans woman in Hawaii. So Lauren says the hardest was
the most, the most resistance and the most animosity that
she has received has been from men. She's convinced it
has something to do with how could you ever?

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Yeah, oh yeah, I think that's true.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Part with external genitalia.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yeah, would you ever?

Speaker 2 (54:45):
You want to give all this that right?

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Right? And and she mentioned this to me, and I
just kind of wow that it sounds maybe there's something
to that that is just so unthinkable to men. They
just can't get there. Well, they react, so they react.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
So well, there's something in the in the culture that
is convinced men that they're so damn great. So there's that, right,
the patriarchy.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
The patriarchy must be based on something, right, Oh, it's
got to be that, you know, like that's anality. You
have an aldi, Some people have anies like that's just
how they're born. And you know, we hang an awful
lot on that. We're no kinder in raising boys than
we are in raising girls. In my opinion, we're hard
on everyone.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
We're hard on everybody. But I do remember a study
they just get more out of it.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
But I digress.

Speaker 3 (55:40):
There's a study that said, I remember this when my
sister and her partner began having kids, and I think
she brought this up that they did a study, and
I'd like to quote the source, I can't remember, but
it asked, how are children raised by a hetero couple

(56:00):
different than children raised by a gay couple? And what
they found was the gay couple, whether gay men or
lesbians or whatever constellation of queerness. What they found was
there was one significant difference between the kids of gay
couples and the kids of hetero couples. And the difference
was this that the kids of the gay couples were

(56:23):
more verbal.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Yeah, I believe that.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
They were able to express how they.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Felt, Yeah, and probably encouraged to do so that makes sense, Well, because.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
You have wonderful that's kind of wonderful.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yeah, you have to, you know, And it's like, it's
one of the reasons we decided to put microphones in
front of ourselves and like make sure we sit down
once a week because we have to check in about race,
about gender, about orientation and living in this so we
have to. We would not have been together this long

(56:57):
if we didn't have honest conversations about those things, knows, yes,
And we haven't.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
Talked about We haven't talked about race today at all.
We have not no, And I wish I had something
wise to say other than you know, we still got
work to do.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
You know, I will say this because you know, in
the same vein of what we were talking about with
what's happening with trans folks, we didn't have a conversation
around CRT. We didn't have the term in, you know,
out in the world of critical race theory until we
had the protracted protests of twenty twenty, and we had

(57:37):
a lot of white folks joining black folks on the
street protesting. So the pivot seems to have been it's
not that we're seeing a major overhaul of the way
this country polices, but suddenly we're all talking about CRT.
It's like, well, if we don't teach it, maybe they
won't know.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
My God. So this reminds me a little of something
I learned at the Prohibition Museum in Savannah, Georgia.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
I stopped by Savannah on my way up north in
late March. I've never been there before, and it's it's fascinating,
it's fascinating city and worth twenty four hours for sure.
But I stopped at the Prohibition Museum, right, which is
about selling booz during Prohibition, and you know Savannah's apport
town and had lots of speakeasies and one thing that

(58:35):
one of the guards, security guards brought up, and actually
it was just because I had a conversation with him.
And I like to talk to the guards in the
museums right right often there, Right, they're the ones with
the most interesting things to say. I bet yes, because
right they've been looking at this stuff and looking at
people reacting to it.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
I love you.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah. I always talk to the staff anywhere anywhere I am,
because that's how you learn.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yeah, and they know what's what. Right, they can cut
through the bullshit and get to the point. Right. And
this guy said he was a black gentleman, and he
said to me, you know the real reason prohibition came about.
I said what he said. There were people getting upset
that white people were going to drink with black people,
and they didn't like black people getting in that close
to white people.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
That tracks.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
So that's why this prohibition had to end. Because because
of the racial tension component. Somebody wanted to keep these
two apart.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
I was like, whoa, I did not know that, but
I am completely unsurprised by that.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
Yeah, blew my mind because you think it's about booze
and right, the free flow of booze. And I mean,
I'm sure people were making plenty of money during Prohibition.
Maybe that was the birth of the mob in the
United States, but that kind of whoa right you think
about Cotton Club Harlem? What's going on? Whoa these bill? Oh,
somebody's gonna get upset about this, right, And so like

(59:58):
the Black Lives Matter protes in Philadelphia and how many
of us white people joined the march and like that's
enough of this, and someone didn't like this going on,
and yeah, so CRT suddenly is a big issue.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Yeah, yeah, that was an amazing outcry. I remember seeing
a video of like in like Podunk County, Iowa. You know,
it was like one white dude marching down the street
saying black lives matter, and folks yelling at him and
stopping to curse at him from cars, and like, wow, I.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Will say, in defense of my home state of Iowa,
I was waiting for that.

Speaker 9 (01:00:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
I do think I do think that because there are
there are so few minority people in Iowa. What is
the population to warn maybe twenty not even that, and
that's the big city right there, just aren't you know,
there's so few black in Iowa. And I think that

(01:01:02):
you know, you would think, oh, well they're racist because
they don't see black people. I think there's just mean people, right,
There's just mean people. Some people are just mean. Even
if they haven't seen black people, they've decided, right, some
people just are mean and this is just something fed
do them by the media. Yeah, actually had no first

(01:01:24):
hand experience with black people at all.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
Right, Well, and I you know, we talk about that
a lot because when I grew up here, it was
just very white here. It was very white here in
New Jersey, in this part of New Jersey where I
grew up here. Yeah, And I remember I had an
eighth grade teacher. She saved my life. And she was
the coolest teacher ever. And she used to pick me

(01:01:49):
up in the summer and take me swimming with their
kids and just like gave me a place to hang
out and somebody smart to talk to. And I remember
one day we were driving around near here and she's
commented She's like, the fucking racists. And I went, you
think it's racist here? And she said, oh, honey, all

(01:02:09):
those white sheets out on the clotheslines, they are enough
for the beds. And I was like, but I had
like she opened my mind in a way that no
one else had before. And I went, oh, you realize
how many sheets you just passed? Wait a minute, and
I mean, yes, it was sort of a joke, but

(01:02:31):
not really. And so I learned things that I hadn't considered.
And you open your world and then when you know better,
you do better. And I think in a lot of places,
especially in the Midwest, you do have folks who they
just grew up around white people and they didn't know
any better, and then it's easy to create a boogeyman.

(01:02:53):
In the same way if you've met if you don't
encounter trans people, it's really easy to be afraid of
us and say.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
But it's hard to be a missionary. You know, Frans person,
you're a missionary almost all the time? Right, Well, person,
you're a missionary. You know a lot. Yeah, it's a
lot to ask anybody, it is. And may the day
comes soon when it doesn't have to be that way.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Really may it. Yeah, you know, there's two songs I
want to talk about because I don't I don't want
to soak up too much of your time because.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
You're being soaking up. I'm soaking up.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
My Okay, well is there more in there? Because there's more.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
In the fridge?

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Okay? Good? Oh, thank goodness.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
I wonder you are a brilliant songwriter. One of the
songs that you did on Saturday night was Manhattan, Kansas.
It could not be more relevant right now as we
get to the end of June and wonder what's happening
with brow ye is that? Is that a tough song

(01:03:58):
to do?

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Good good? Okay, it's not. I think it's an important
song to do well.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
Thanks for saying that. It is the You know, I
like to work sometimes from models. It helps me if
I have kind of a template, and in this case,
the model is the songs of Jimmy Webb. Jimmy Webb
wrote Jimmy Webb is from Oklahoma, and he wrote some
songs that were country hits in the seventies, including Galveston
and Wichita Linemen.

Speaker 9 (01:04:27):
And by the time I get to Phoenix, right right right,
Puppy Dog Can we put the puppy dog on camera?

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Yeah, he's going to insist on it. This is Ali,
bring him between.

Speaker 3 (01:04:38):
Us, Aley, not Alvin, Justine, not Alvin Aley.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
There, that's Ali. Yes, that's the He was three pounds
when we got him. He's almost five now. So oh my,
he's put on Yeah, he's gotten healthier. He put on
some weight, his hair grow in. He was a maths
when we got him.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
I love the joke that my brother used to tell about.
He would say, I'm really I'm a little nervous because
I'm going to my elementary school reunion, class reunion this weekend,
and I've put on one hundred pounds since then.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Adopted a Doberman.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
My elementary school reunion.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Oh that's the.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
And re refocus. Oh yeah, so the Manhattan, Kansas. So
I wanted to write a song. It seemed to me
that so much of the it seemed to be that
so much of the discussion about abortion rights has to
do with this this fixation, this ability to overlook the
experience of a pregnant woman. She's just invisible to the

(01:05:57):
whole thing. And I wanted to write a portrait that
fills out that story. That's a real person with experiences
and with decisions to make and how and why. And
so I landed on the town of Manhattan, Kansas's a
place I've been in a beautiful place. There's a great prairie,
restored prairie just outside of Manhattan, and it's just is beautiful.

(01:06:20):
It's like what you think heaven must look like. When
you walk into the gates, You're just like, oh, golden,
the golden prairie grass and the sun, no trees between
you and the sun, just for miles. And that was
how that song came about. Was I had a model
for this exercise I wanted to do, not just an exercise,
but I felt strongly like we were overlooking the pregnant woman. Yeah,

(01:06:45):
how are we doing? Why are we doing that? And
sometimes I think it's because because people are afraid of pregnancy.
It's pregnancy is hard work, to say the least, To
say the least, it's a major inconvenience. It is I've
never been pregnant, but major. Your body will never be

(01:07:05):
the same, right right, And this this inability to face
that square on what is that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
I think it did an amazing job because it feels
very personal. The song feels, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
It's a piece of it's a piece of writing that
is obliquely personal, right, and it's it just seems to
really resonate, and it has ever since I wrote. It
seems especially powerful right now, God forbid, whatever's going to
happen here later this week. It's just it can't be.
It can't be.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
I gotta tell you, I love your town of Chicago
because you've got you've got resources, and they really are
trying to I'm losing the name of the organization, but
it's like, you know, the Women's Abortion Center of Chicago.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
And why don't I know that name either?

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
But they have you know, they haven't had to turn
anyone away through the pandemic, and in years they've maintained funding.
And they're really trying to gear up at this point
because they're looking at maybe three four thousand more women
coming through the doors.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
Yeah, because you know, Illinois is going to be an
abortion island, right, you know, a sanctuary in a safe place.
And you know it's because we know from the Upper Midwest.
You know, Chicago's always been and I live in Chicago.
I'm here right now in town, and it's always been
a kind of pool for talent, you know, attractive right gathering.
Somebody called it a catch basin for talent, right like

(01:08:36):
from the Upper Midwest. There's a couple of different things
you can do. You can go to New York, you
can go to la or you can go to Chicago,
and you can still go see your parents. Yeah, okay,
so for me this works out, even though it wasn't
Philly for many, many years, but I came back here
so I can see my parents and Tracy lived here.
Long story. But the idea that Illinois is going to

(01:08:57):
become one of those places where you know, we can
help that it would have to even.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Do that, that's right, right, I mean, but it's true.
And at least they are like they're prepared.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
Yeah, that's what we're going to see, you know, that's
we're going to see. All over the country. There's gonna
be places where you can go.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
What a what a hideous place to be in. But
it's nice to know we have islands.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
I hope to think right now, by the way, that
there's a lot of stocking up on plan on the
plan on Plan B Hill.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Yeah right, well I've seen a lot of that too.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Yeah, one has to hope that a lot of that's
going on, getting ready for the battle ahead, because it
is that the links.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
The mail order. Yeah, because we don't think especially here.
I mean, you know, we live kind of in a bubble,
you know here in New Jersey, Like Pennsylvania has that
pennsyl tucky thing in the middle, but New Jersey doesn't, Right,
So you know, New Jersey is putting the lalls in
place in the ways that Illinois is to say, Yeah,
for you know, we hear you, we hear what's happening,

(01:09:57):
and we're going to make sure we protect folks. But
you don't realize what it's like for someone in Texas
or you know, or someone who is in one of
these huge states where there aren't that many people to
begin with, and there's nowhere to go and there's not
the money to get there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
And yeah, and this fairy tale about the babies, right
that there will be all of a sudden all of
these white babies show white couples to adopt. Yeah, please,
that's not what's going to happen here, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Well, no, of course it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
No, it's just sad.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
And we will lose more adult women. I think that's
going to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
No, we will. There's a lot about it. So remember November.
Remember November.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Yes please, I love that that rhymes because that's it's
the one place I always land is and vote, vote, vote,
then vote wherever you are.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
Exactly. And it's like, you know, you may want to
blow up the world, and I'm fine with that, you know,
carry the sign. We can have that conversation. But I
need you to vote.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
I do.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
I need and need you just suck it up, vote
for a Democrat, and then then we can talk about
all the rest of it in December.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
In the but I'm in between times.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
I want to know that I can still live here
in December, like I want to know that because the
pink triangles were not that far away from.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
Oh god, yeah, it feels very yeah, very republic.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
I imagine you don't get to see a lot of television,
or maybe you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Do, but not so much. But hey, are we running
out of time? We are?

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
No, we are unless we take one more quick break
and then and then we can wrap it up on
that or we wrap it up now, let's have one more.
Let's have one more break, fill our fill our glasses
and then because I think if you remember, there was
one thing I had hoped you did on Saturday that
I didn't get to hear. So if if there's a guitar.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Nearby, I can go get it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:53):
Okay, we'll be right back. We'll be right back.

Speaker 6 (01:12:05):
I was a college girl from out of state. He
was a rancher from Salina, And when I told him
I was three weeks lane, he said, I can't be.

Speaker 3 (01:12:30):
A father. Manhattan conslus. We all do what we gotta do.

Speaker 7 (01:12:41):
I did what I did, and I surely don't blame you.
I simply needed.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
For things to turn out differently.

Speaker 6 (01:12:56):
Or Manhattan, Kansas, can you understand me?

Speaker 5 (01:13:04):
The longer side walk will over see.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Hey, I'm Karen and I'm Aubrey.

Speaker 10 (01:13:16):
And this is chick Lit, a literature comedy podcast where
we enjoy getting lit and talking about books that spoke
to us as young adults.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
Yeah book it was dope as fuck.

Speaker 10 (01:13:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
I get the little personal Pam pizza.

Speaker 8 (01:13:31):
Just for you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Nobody can take that ship though. But we also cover
movies with special guests and it can get pretty crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
I'll make a controversial statement.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
I will take this over.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Space jam is that controversial?

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
People love space? Jam. We might have to, we might
have to stage a fight.

Speaker 10 (01:13:49):
So if you enjoy ya fiction, that fool of a
fairy Loucinda did not intend.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
To lay a curse on me. She meant to bestow
a gift. Boozy beverages.

Speaker 10 (01:13:59):
Little shot of Bailey is in your coffee, coffee, pizza
and Bailey's goes together like doesn't go together, Like it
doesn't go together at all, And the power of friendship.
I'll be like, I bought your Christmas present and she'll
be like, what'd you get me?

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
I have to know, tell me right, And I'm like,
hen you get so irritated because I'm like, do you
want your present now?

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
And he's like, it's like October, No, I don't. Then
we're the podcasts for you.

Speaker 10 (01:14:22):
We've been best friends for over a decade, So join
it on the fun and grab a drink, y'all. January sixth,
at one fifteen pm, the day that Dry January died.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
You say, you know, you say.

Speaker 11 (01:14:58):
Und that holely Bible of bam Shell.

Speaker 12 (01:15:05):
Do you recall when jeeves a sad judge not last
judge yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:15:21):
For I know you down if you could, my friend,
that's simply not your call.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
If God is great and God is good, why is
your heaven.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
So small? So we are back? I swear I'm going
to get out this one thought. Somebody somewhere is based
in Manhattan, Kansas, or someone somewhere whatever it's called Somebody
somewhere somebody.

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
Why would you choose that, right?

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
Well, because it's Manhattan, Kansas. It's such a I don't know,
but it's a I don't know, but it's a really
good show about uh, you know, a woman kind of
our age who finds herself back where she grew up.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Well that's why, right, because it's not I mean, did
somebody from La cook up this idea?

Speaker 11 (01:16:25):
I don't know?

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
What is it? How does it serve the story? Well,
that's what it's about. It's about somebody coming back to
connecting to their roots.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Yeah, and it's it's it's it's a fun it's a
fun show. It actually is a really fun show.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Well, I would expect something from set in Manhattan, Kansas.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
To be I thought it was the only time I
would ever hear it, and then I heard your song
and I was like, okay, two people have been there.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
Well I want to show there this fall. So I
know I'll play that, but maybe I can talk about
this show now.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
Yeah, it's based there, It is based there. I thought
it was so interesting, you know, I was, I was
cooking up a thought during the break, and I guess
it was just this. When you talk to young musicians,
what do you tell them?

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Hm? Hm?

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
You know you, because you know when I look at you,
I see someone who does exactly what they want to
do with maybe the exception of the Broadway show, which
I did want to kind of fit in real quick.
But but you you really do explore different genres. Your
albums are also singular and different, and I think you're

(01:17:40):
just having fun and that has to there has to
be a price to that. There has to be that's
hard because you haven't made yourself easily I love I
love this answer already. You haven't made yourself easily distinguishable,
Like what's your genre? My genre is music?

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
Yeah, at some point you realize, you know, you're giving
a choice, right, you think you're giving a choice, which
is look susan. You know, really you ought to be more.
You know how many times did I hear this? You know?
It would be nice to have something more marketable. It'd
be nice to have something we can fit into a bin,
you know, fit into a bin in the record store
and the bin, right, what bin are you in? And
at some point you realize that you hear that enough,

(01:18:20):
but you're not doing it, Like you're just not going
to do it right, but you're not going.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
To do that doesn't work for me at all, and
fitting in a bin doesn't even sound the tract is.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
No, a little bit, it sounds a little bit like
a little tiny doggy cage is awful. Yeah, at some
point you just realize, no, you're not going to do it,
and then you have to Here's the hard part is
to accept what comes back from that. Meaning if you're
going to be an idiosyncratic artist right who brings challenges

(01:18:49):
before themselves, And that's where the energy is. That you
may not be a household name. And the question is
are you willing to accept that or are you going
to yell at it and be bitter about you know,
not being I don't know some right, save this name.

Speaker 13 (01:19:07):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
At some point you just say, hey, you know this,
I kept wanting this, I kept really wanting this. There's
a reason I want this. You know that this is
my way, this is my calling this is it. So
then you do that and you enjoy being that somebody
wants to be ourselves, we have to give up being
other possible selves. M Yeah, And to really enjoy being yourself,

(01:19:30):
you just say, okay, yeah, could a what A should me?
I'm gonna enjoy being this what this is? And yeah,
So that's how that works out right. You may know
that there's something else you could do, But if you
accept being yourself and that the rewards are gonna come
from that, and you're gonna and you're gonna be and
you're gonna be good with those rewards, you're gonna like

(01:19:51):
your life.

Speaker 5 (01:19:52):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:53):
But if you're always trying to scream like, why aren't
I experiencing the rewards of a major career? Well, are
you doing the work that attracts a major audience? Right?
Are you doing that? Are you willing to change what
you do to be that?

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:20:08):
And that's a question. You think you can just do
it and have it, but no for some of most
but it would be something we'd have to consciously aim
at and decide to be and even then it may
not work.

Speaker 6 (01:20:18):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:19):
I could write a whole bunch of songs that I
think are mainstream pop, indie rock whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
I'm sure you could, but.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
They still might not they still might not work.

Speaker 9 (01:20:29):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Yeah, I think that's interesting because what just rang in
my head Kathy. We interviewed Kathy, and I told you
about that, and I said, you know, she kind of
told her story about coming up in radio, and I said,
isn't it interesting, like just the serendipity and how so
much fell into place? And she said, once I knew

(01:20:52):
who I was. Yeah, And that's what you've just said
is kind of once you know who you are, right,
that's where the good stuff is.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
Yes, Yeah, And I think for I think for some
of us, for some of us women, I think for
some of us, with the option to be pregnant, the
decision not to have children yourself is a big one.
Oh sure, And it frees up if you think that
you might have children, and there's a moment when you

(01:21:20):
say it's not going to happen in this lifetime. There's
an energy I found that came back to me like, Okay,
well then I'm just going all in on this other thing.
There's a window of time where some of us may
hear the biological clock really ticking, like and I think
there is such a thing. I think it's like you're
I don't know what's going on. Maybe your body's throwing

(01:21:42):
more eggs, are like, come on, come on, the cough
at this point, sneezing eggs, right, And I think the
moment that I became really comfortable with the idea that no,
I just I'm going to do this and there's a
way to be. There's a way to be. Somebody said generativity.

(01:22:04):
The word generativity, like there's a way to make good
things happen, to generate life with that happened to be
a mom pregnant yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Hell yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):
So the question may be what is what is it
you really want to do? And is parenting part of
that right? Or is it is it raising a child?
Is it being pregnant? What part of what part of
these right? To break it down into its component parts
and say this is really I really like about this,
and is there a way to do this that feels
like myself and that I get to keep myself and

(01:22:35):
do it right and I feel like this is the
right decision this way. And then when Kathy O'Connell comes
to my show, right, Kathy O'Connell from kids corner at XPN,
and I wind up playing songs like you kissed your
dog on the mouth, Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
My God, And she went home and did that, so
of course she did. I want to tell you this, Stu.

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
I want to say. I mean to say, we just
finished this thought is that that song is such a
big hit with kids.

Speaker 1 (01:22:59):
I'm sure they love this song.

Speaker 3 (01:23:01):
And I would never have thought i'd ever write a
children's song. I didn't mean to write a children's song
with kids, right, I love anyway, the idea we're talking
about generativity and parenting and deciding to be who you are,
and the energy that gets released when you decide to
be who you are. It may still come back in
some way that you didn't even foresee, right that I
wrote a song that makes eight year old kids happy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
I love them.

Speaker 1 (01:23:24):
It's awesome and that's a wonderful thing to just have happened. Yeah. Well,
and I could totally see you writing kids music. I
totally see that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
I don't think it's going to happen, though.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
No, Okay, I want I want the agnostic children's album.
I want that. I'm like looking for it now.

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):
So what for your listeners, Martha, I think is referencing
is a project I did called The Gospel Truth. Yes,
and it puts songs of faith next to songs of doubt,
and it's church music. Sounds like church music, right, it does?
And uh and it is. I mean, the song styles are,
the song forms are of the church. But it puts

(01:24:09):
these songs of faith next to songs of doubt, right
next to it, which is how a lot of us
experience the church. Is like, oh, this is great, this
is horrible, right, this is really a wonderful quality to
have as human being. This is awful, right. And so
I put that record out and then somebody said you
should really do an agnostic children's album, and I'm like, oh, yeah,

(01:24:31):
that'll sell tens of.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
Units, tens of fives of albums TSI will go ten
double pocket lit.

Speaker 1 (01:24:45):
It's that song is a perfect song for eight year olds.
I can be content with that. Kathy's dog, Tammy, who
I adore and this is her second home. Kathy does
Kathy does, Tammy does the tongue slide like. I have
to put her head down because if I let it,
like if I relax and let that dog's face anywhere

(01:25:08):
near mine, she'll wait for me to be talking and
her tongue goes halfway down my throat, and I'm like,
your mother likes that, not me.

Speaker 3 (01:25:18):
I use this product called Farah Breath. Have you heard
of Sarah breath? Yes, it's really yes, And maybe just
keep that on hand for occasions like that, the oral hygiene.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
Either way, I don't want her doing that. And I'm like,
I sit there, I am not consenting to this.

Speaker 3 (01:25:36):
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:25:37):
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
There's no consent.

Speaker 3 (01:25:41):
It's an assault doggy. That's horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:25:44):
And then Keathy's just called me here and call kiss mommy.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
No no, Also, don't kiss mommy human.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
Mom yea, no, human mommy encourages that nonsense. It's horrible.
He thinks it's hilarious when it happens to me, Yes,
right right, yeah, what happens to you?

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
Well, I think this dog has figured out that I
get that. They get a reaction out of.

Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
You, right, she does, and she loves that. Yeah, she
thinks that's great. She thinks that's great.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
That's the kind of power even negative attention.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
Uh huh, do you have pets at home?

Speaker 3 (01:26:25):
I don't. I travel too much.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
We're going I thought I was going to say that
that can't really be possible, Ken, No.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
It's not possible. And I would love I mean, i'd
love to have a dog. I love that dog. I
love dog.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
Liza Minelli always takes hers with her. I'm just saying, yeah,
I haven't anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Yes, there are performers who do that, but you also
have to have a staff that's okay with the dog
coming with you. And I just you know, I go
visit my road manager, Jane up and Shellefont and her
dog Adrian is my time share dog. Is like, oh,
good time share dog. And Jane named your dog Adrian
because Jane's and Philly so off the back porch she

(01:27:02):
can yell.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
That's perfect, it's perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
Yeah, there are some creative dog names out there, but
that's that's a good one. That's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:19):
ALIAS just named that so I could get him in
the house.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
I went to a voodoo shop in New Orleans and
I went in. Yeah, and from the back I heard
this dog was growling it right, really growling at my presence.
And I heard a voice say, Jesus Christ, shut up,
Jesus Christ, come here. So the dog's name was Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:27:45):
I love that. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
And that's when I knew I was going to have
a great hour and a half at the Voodoo Shop.
And it was awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
That's awesome, that's perfect, it's perfect. So what's coming up
for you? What's happening when your schedule look like I
know that you are constantly on the road. What's next?

Speaker 12 (01:28:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:28:04):
I try to not sometimes be on the road, right
so I can be home and like, you know, eat
food that has vegetables in it, go crazy, have a
piece of fruit. Wow, that stuff is the stuff you
get tired of in travel, you know, the sitting down
for hours and the food. But I go to let's see,

(01:28:27):
go up to Massachusetts. I'm doing a show at the
well Fleet Actors Theater on the Cape, which I've never
done before, and I'm going to have a couple extra days.
And that's hard to complain about, right right, Those gigs
are hard to complain about. I'm up at Booth Bay
Harbor and Maine in August. Maine in August is hard
to complain about.

Speaker 5 (01:28:46):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
Nice, And now.

Speaker 3 (01:28:48):
We're back in Philly. I think in January at the point,
I think the point has opened up again. Oh okay,
the main point was in Ismar and now there's a club.
There's a club called The Point that was open for
a while and then I think they're going to reopen
as The Point. Okay, so it's great. It's such a
great little space, so cozy, and I'm excited to go

(01:29:10):
back there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:11):
Okay, that's fun. That's fun. I loved Singing Your World
Cafe Live. That was a great It's a perfect venue.

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
It is talent with me too. I had Trina Hamlin
on harmonica.

Speaker 1 (01:29:22):
Oh yeah, she was amazing, amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:29:25):
No one can do that. She plays the drums in harmonica.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
At the at the same she also whistles like almost
no one I've ever heard. Yes, it's like Roger Whittaker
or something. It's amazing, amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
Seriously, when she was whistling, I was like, you better sing.

Speaker 3 (01:29:41):
She does, and she does. She does that, and she writes,
you know, songs, great songs, and plays piano and guitar.
She's mind blowingly talented. And then you had Chris Matthews
there that night too, and what a tremendous talent.

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
Now where did you Where did you meet Chris Matthews?
Because we were captivated, captivated, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:30:00):
Oh, I know at Folk Alliance in New Orleans and
like twenty nineteen, I think, right before the pandemic of
twenty twenty, and I'd heard of Chris before and I
finally saw a set and I just was so just
blown away by again this energy of positivity, just picking
up an audience and lifting us. And we just need

(01:30:20):
more of that. We just we can never get enough
of it. We'll never get enough kindness, we will never
get enough positivity, and she is just bringing it. And
also pitch perfection, perfection. And what I learned later was
that Chris has a degree in music and plays clarinet
quite well, so I think Chris may have been a

(01:30:41):
scholarship student. And that pitch when Chris sings is just
it's it's like Barbara Streisan pitch. It's right on it.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):
It was amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Clarinet was my instrument too.

Speaker 3 (01:30:55):
That helps, and that helps with that helps with your
sense of singing and your help and your sense of line.
When you sing a phrase, like phrasing, how to make
how to make the phrase grow, go up, come down,
where to let people where to kind of the handoff
to the next phrase. I mean that is it's like
drawing a line clarinet is like drawing a very very

(01:31:17):
long line with a black sharpie. If one can see
this is the line here it is. It goes like this,
and it does this right. And when I do that,
I mean this right, emotionally right. It's the intention of
what you're doing. Yes, Harry's to people even if they
have no idea. You could be thinking, you know, thoughts
about like you can be thinking, you know, the most

(01:31:40):
angry thoughts in the world, violent thoughts. But if you
if you sublimate it into music. No one knows exactly
what you're thinking, but they can feel something like what
you're right. And this is the beauty of music, right,
that you can bring your feelings safely, whatever they are,
you can bring through an instrument. You can bring those
feelings safely to other people. Yes, because it's not there's

(01:32:02):
no name attached, right, there's no name, there's no specifics attached.
It's universal. This brings back some again. I'm always referring
to studies. What that was wrong with me? So there
was a study where they played they had a musician
play a note on the piano, just the same note,
but play it seven different ways, and people all over

(01:32:22):
the world use the same kinds of words to describe
the emotion just playing one note, how they played the
one note right and it wasn't specific but like gentle
or tender right or angry right, but with one note
just right. Anyway, I'm going on, I'm trying to catch myself, but.

Speaker 1 (01:32:45):
I you know, I look at music that way though.
I think that especially this is just my theory that
I want to share with you, particularly as the rhetoric.
The rhetoric just keeps getting hotter and further apart, where
words are failing us and we're not trusting one another.

(01:33:10):
I've always thought art, and in particular music is universal
and bridges those gaps, and we need it now more
than ever.

Speaker 3 (01:33:22):
Yeah, and where we can right to do, to do
music with other artists, especially artists that do not look
like us, especially artists that do not have the same
orientation as us. Anytime we can mix it up, anytime
we can create a dialogue. And that's what's hard, is that,
right that when you have we talked earlier about record
store bins. Right, the genre, there's genre, so then people

(01:33:46):
tend to stay within the genre and whatever that is.
But anywhere that we can bust out of that. Boy,
that's Oh, that's it. That's it. That's it, that's it,
and and yes, more of that, And you're inspiring me
to complete a project I'm working on. I'm gonna make
a note good.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
Do you do you have a favorite collaborator?

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
I mentioned to you it was it was quite a
quite a thing. As we were announced as the newest
DJs on Medway Pride. We tuned in and it was
Susie on Sundays and there you were, and I was like,
this world is this big? And I had looked at
some of the Susie on Sundays where you had Dar
Williams and Kathy Matteia. Do you have a favorite collaborator

(01:34:35):
or somebody that you want to work with that you
haven't yet? So somebody that comes to mind?

Speaker 3 (01:34:39):
You know, there's there's some people I've really enjoyed working with.
I had the good fortune to do a tour with
Kemmo m It was just a wonderful human being and
who does some of what we were just talking about right,
which is to create gentleness and dialogue and you know,
do your work that way, create create good, create create positive.

(01:35:00):
He's really super positive and just so dedicated to it
all the time. And I really like working with my
pal Eric Johnson there in Philadelphia. He was with a
band called huffa Moose. He's a drummer and just a genius,
and I love his I love the diversity of his
network of musicians and the excellence that is Philly musicians.

(01:35:23):
Can I just tell you, I'm gonna I don't mean
to speak poorly of my hometown of Chicago now, but
I will tell you that Philly musicians are just a
cut above.

Speaker 2 (01:35:33):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:35:33):
I have to agree with you.

Speaker 3 (01:35:34):
There is something about it. I wonder if it has
to do with a long history of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
I wonder if it has to do with a long
history of playing casino gigs where you had to, you know,
execute with people you'd never met before. I wonder if
it has to do with Broadway shows coming down and
doing tryouts in Philadelphia. I wonder if it's part of

(01:35:56):
the North Philly scene and Jill Scott and you know, gambling,
huff and all of that that Philadelphia has. Philadelphia had
a recognizable moment and then a neo soul moment with
Jill Scott. Yeah, but that there was a moment where
Philadelphia was making the music that everybody in the world
listened to. And whenever I go back to Philly, if
I'm in a public building like the airport or a

(01:36:17):
post office or something, they're playing Philadelphia music and people
are humming along, even singing. I don't see that anywhere else.
I don't see that anywhere else, and I just love it.
I just love it. We sing along with a great tune,
and so much good music has come from Philadelphia that

(01:36:39):
there's great music to sing to that's identified with the city.

Speaker 12 (01:36:42):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:36:44):
We had our bar for five years, just before COVID
shut the bar down, but we had an open mic
night on every Tuesday night, and it became known because
there was a circle of musicians that are cutting their
teeth and working it out and collaborating with others, and

(01:37:04):
they know which place has which like World Cafe Live,
it's Monday night. We were Tuesday, somebody else was Wednesday,
but they knew, you know where to go, and we
had we had musicians come through that brought up a
horn section. Yes, I don't open mic night on a Tuesday, right, That's.

Speaker 3 (01:37:23):
Not going to happen in Chicago. I'm gonna tell you
that that's not going to happen. It's just nope, it's
just I don't know why, but that just does not
happen that way. And I think, again, Philadelphia had this moment,
and it has this tradition everybody, let's all get together
and make something special happen. And also, like the horn
section is a very seventies thing. Oh yeah, and again
it comes from this great moment in Philadelphia music, you know,

(01:37:44):
pop music history. I love hearing that. I love that
you were part of that. Thanks for creating a place
like that. It matters hugely to have a place to
go try out your stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:37:53):
I agree, Yeah, we agree.

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
We had that.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
That was an honor. Really, it was an honor.

Speaker 3 (01:37:58):
And may chance you're going to open your bar.

Speaker 1 (01:38:00):
I think I'm done with the bar business. I do.
I think it was a moment in time for us,
you know, but there are so many other ways to
be creative. So when Charles and I first got together,
he was producing a performance series in West Philly, the.

Speaker 2 (01:38:17):
Et Cetera Performance Series, And yeah, and I thanks for
doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Yeah, So it was fun. It was primarily dance, And
I said, you know, I had sat in the audience,
and I said, the thing that's missing from this is
a host because I just like that, you know, I
like the performers being able to have an intro and
an outro and someone to just you know, kind of
announce who they are what they're doing in the world.

(01:38:43):
So I started hosting and and it was really a
lot of fun. So we're talking about doing that again.
And as you know, as we did it, we incorporated
more music, more musicians, more you know, just a variety,
and expanded it beyond dance. And then in the are
it started as what we called Fringe of the Fringe

(01:39:04):
because Philly has the big fringe festival in September. Well,
we were up in the Northeast and we couldn't afford
to pay to be a part of the Fringe festival.
It was a lot like our technology today. So what
we did we worked that we did we did was
we had Fringe of the Fringe and we would have
this big day where we just kind of brought everybody back,

(01:39:29):
you know, we kind of hand picked from the open
mic nights and the people that played there, and we
had this big, long thing.

Speaker 2 (01:39:35):
I booked it for an entire year.

Speaker 1 (01:39:38):
Yeah, and then Charles said, let's let's do First Friday
and let's incorporate a visual artist. So we would do
every First Friday, we had a new visual artist who
would put their work on the wall and sell their
art through that month. And then we did kind of
a mini version of Fringe of the Fringe every First Friday,

(01:40:00):
and it was we had harp, we had you know,
like a rock fiddle player. We had Yeah, so so
much cool stuff, cool music that came through. So yeah,
I don't I don't say us as bar owners again,
but how do you ever get away from it?

Speaker 8 (01:40:16):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
But there's what what you were doing was creating a
space for creativity to happen. So maybe that doesn't have
to be a bar, right right, Yeah, before I forget
to mention it, Charles, I just did this gig up
in french Town at art Yard, and that's a good
space for visual arts and dance, okay from the barren mind,
because they're really pretty open minded about what they do there.
So the art Yard, Yeah, look it up. And I

(01:40:39):
think that they might be looking for a Charles, you know,
they might be they might be looking for a Charles
and the talents of the Charles.

Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
And an event, and Frenchtown is like quintessential Bucks County,
one of those gorgeous Well, the french Town is New
Jersey though, right, the New Jersey.

Speaker 3 (01:40:53):
Yeah, somebody said it's the new New Hope.

Speaker 1 (01:40:59):
And that's fair. Yeah, but it's so quaint and beautiful
and quiet, and.

Speaker 3 (01:41:04):
But the space is looking to bring in all kinds
of things.

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:07):
Art yard cool, that's cool to know. Well, we we
are very close to the Broadway Theater in Pittman, and
Kathy has us with season tickets. They do you know, uh,
mostly musical theater and they're fantastic. Yep, you know, it's
it's it's great regional community theater. But the level of

(01:41:31):
production quality is just amazing and it's like, wow, that's
right here, and it's just like and I can park,
so we.

Speaker 3 (01:41:37):
You know, yeah yeah, and it doesn't cost.

Speaker 2 (01:41:43):
Yeah. So yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
So I the the answer to that is we'll be
doing something because I don't know how to not support
art and artists and you know, our life is so
much better because of them all.

Speaker 3 (01:41:58):
And so this goes back to the sharing delight thing
we were talking about with Kathy O'Connell. You know, there's something.
If you love it, you know, some people want to
share it, some people want to hoard it right right,
and some people get it, and some people get a good,
great delight out of watching other people enjoy it. Right.
Somebody said once, uh, there's Broadway actors and Broadway audiences

(01:42:19):
that look at the stage, that look at the stage
when the show is going on, and then there's producers
and writers, and producers and writers turn the other way
and watch the audience right right right, and they're watching
to see what works and what doesn't exactly what doesn't,
but also to take some pride and showing people a

(01:42:40):
good time. You made that happen. Look at this great
time everybody's happened. Everybody's happening. It's almost like a parent generativity.
You know, you made this happen, baby go we do.

Speaker 2 (01:42:56):
Yeah, and we have.

Speaker 1 (01:42:58):
We have quite a family of young musicians who really
did cut our friend the jingle berries for instance, Yeah, yeah,
our friend Medeu. She's the first woman to do satria,
which is a prayerful form of a traditional Indian dance.
It was always done by men on this little island,

(01:43:20):
like just these monks did it. Wow, And she was
the first woman to ever bring it to the United
States and the first woman allowed to do satria, and
the first place she did it was at the et
Cetera performance series Wow. And so she always credits us
with giving her her start, which is, you know, ridiculous
to us because she's so fabulous. But one of the

(01:43:43):
cool things that has always happened was a collaboration. So
we had a tap dancer. His name is Reggie Tapman Myers.
He was out of New York and yeah, we're gonna, okay,
we're going to wrap this up. He was out of
New York and he did a combination of hip and
tap and he would change his shoes during his performance.

(01:44:04):
And then they met, and then they surprised me at
the next et Cetera and they performed together. So we
had traditional Indian dance, tap and hip hop all on
the same stage, all in the same performance, and it
was electric.

Speaker 3 (01:44:21):
And everyone agrees on this. Everyone agrees on this. Everyone
loves this. There's nothing not to love about this. Right.
It is almost like you talk about music is the
universal language. It's the lyrics that cause bar fights, right
right right dance Like you were just talking about no one,
no one cannot watch that. Yeah, it gets to your

(01:44:41):
eyes before any other interpretation happens. It's just what is
coming in. I'm gonna I think a dance is going
to save the world.

Speaker 1 (01:44:48):
You know, well, I think it all is. I think
in combination. But it's definitely art and it's definitely love.

Speaker 3 (01:44:54):
Yeah, I'd love to see more dance outdoors. I'd love
to see more dance that happens to us.

Speaker 1 (01:44:58):
Oh, we'll come over. It happened here all the time.
I am going to ask you to do something that
you your version no, no, no, no, that wasn't the
same word. No, but wrong. Sorry. You've been so wonderful

(01:45:22):
and generous with your time. All of the world needs
to know more of Susan Warner. I know I can't
get enough, and I feel so blessed to have had
this time and to talk to you. And I'm just
going to ask you if you would please grace us
with a song that you do so beautifully and a
song that you know doesn't require the lyrics are are

(01:45:46):
in another language, and it's just this is gorgeous. This
is Susan Warner.

Speaker 3 (01:45:56):
Cold to Leo are in the Pound to buy Love
be Helbo did a mot.

Speaker 13 (01:46:16):
The motor to leisure, some fair cusho, hely talk, the.

Speaker 11 (01:46:31):
Mock ca in the pound, the borner lock as Sallie
to read on lovee imman Andy leisure, Hipple, loving Christian

(01:47:06):
lapper shore more okay, ke.

Speaker 3 (01:47:21):
Diz zuki form betsinemia, heri chiso.

Speaker 13 (01:47:26):
Persia saboo, while abouts are.

Speaker 3 (01:47:34):
The lomoga jah partia he do domo cad upon, don't
you cone lack all seb more.

Speaker 13 (01:48:00):
You know lovey, you'll malady lasureempo lovy.

Speaker 3 (01:48:20):
Hey, okay, And because you let us swear a lunga
songs or one more again.

Speaker 1 (01:48:32):
Keep but.

Speaker 2 (01:48:46):
Mm hmmm, Susan Warner, Oh my goodness, I felt things.

Speaker 3 (01:48:54):
You know. It's wonderful, isn't it How a song can
just do that without you knowing the specifics we were
just talking about. Right dance gets to you before any
other sorts of interpretations. And you know, a beautiful sound.
I didn't used to do that, that song all that much,
and and and I became aware of what just some
a thing of beauty. It's just the thing of beauty.

(01:49:16):
And I can sing it, you know, like with some
credibility of some sort. You know I can sing, okay,
so let's just do that and make it beautiful, right.
But bring this beautiful song, which is a song from
the Fourties, but bring this song to life and just
make a lovely thing. And that's an argument for itself.
That's enough. It's enough. It doesn't have to be some
it's just a lovely thing. And I hope it helps.

Speaker 1 (01:49:39):
We need more beautiful things. And I can't thank you
enough for being here with us.

Speaker 3 (01:49:45):
And you two are beautiful people. I really enjoyed this
conversation with the two of you, and thanks you this podcast,
and let's just attract you know, positivity and delight and share.

Speaker 13 (01:49:55):
With other people.

Speaker 3 (01:49:55):
I love what you're up to. Thanks for including me.
I appreciated that. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:49:59):
Thank you Susan so much.

Speaker 3 (01:50:01):
Bye Bye, Martha by Charles Bye Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:50:05):
Full Circle is a Never Scured Productions podcast hosted by
Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, Produced and edited by
Never Skurd Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal.
Our theme and music is by the Jingle Bears. All names, pictures, audio,
and video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of
their respective copyright holders,

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