Greycast: BPN w/ Chris Mfume, Managing Partner of CLD Partners

Episode Transcript
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These podcasts are presented by gray Stealand Gray Steal's Black Professional Network. Gray
Steel is a national commercial brokerage withtwelve offices across the country and delivered as
our clients and integrated suite of capitalsolutions tailored to the unique needs of each
engagement across asset types and geographies.Gray Steel provides investment sales, capital markets
and JB equity solution for our clients. These series of podcasts are hosted and

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moderated by the leaders of the GraySteal Black Professional Network. The GDPN was
founded to help deliver and drive retentioninternally and accelerate the hiring externally of diverse
talent as we believe that there aremore representative culture can drive impact and real
business results. Each guest interviewed asan industry leader and trailblazer and we hope

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that their stories can help inform anddrive impact, impactful greater representation in our
industry. Your host will be AaronEdman, co founder of the GDPN and
spearheads our investment sales business in Baltimoreand surrounding metros. Also Nigel Crayton,
co founder of GPPN and a seniorteam leader of the DC and the Atlantic

(01:10):
Investment Sales Business and tc cosmy cofounder of GDPN and leader of the National
Structured Finance Business. Tell us yourstory, because I mean, I've heard
it a couple of times, andI think it's one of the most interesting
coming into your own stories that I'veheard in real estate, you know,
through speaking with developers, sponsors,broken things that sort. So I mean,

(01:37):
just tell a little bit about howyou found this thing, how you
got started, and what you seefor the next five, ten, twenty
years thereafter. Sure, sure,thanks for having me TC and ARRAN.
So my career really started. Igraduated college in twenty twelve, moved to

(01:59):
the District of Columbia. Once Igot to DC, I was working in
the Navy Yard and I really endedup being able to see how the area
developed over time and to really seean area go from an industrial, not
really well populated place to a thrivingmixed use environment, which really, I

(02:23):
guess I would say, gave methe real estate bug. I immediately started
looking at the real estate jobs,started really researching, you know, what
is the offer here, and Irealized there was a wide range of things
to do from what you guys doon the brokerage side, to property management,

(02:45):
to tenant brokerage, you know,investment sales. I mean, there's
just such a wide range of thingsthat you can do in real estate.
And I landed on development. Istarted looking for jobs and interviewing arious places
and kind of got laughed out ofthe room saying, you know, you
need twenty years of experience to dothis that type of deal. And I'm

(03:07):
like, how do I get theexperience if I can't get a job.
And eventually I landed on basically goingto every single event I could. I'm
going to events, I'm networking,traveling back and forth, just trying to
talk to as many smart people asI could. And I eventually started having
to build up my skill set.I wasn't getting the feedback that I was

(03:30):
looking for. It became pretty difficult, and I started trying to build up
my skill set. So I didthat a couple of ways. So I
started taking classes at the Urban LandInstitute. I started temp working at several
places. So I temp worked atGrenado in Crystal City, where Amazon's new
headquarters is. So I started tryingto build up my skill set and just

(03:52):
making myself more valuable to employers,and then eventually, at one of the
events I showed up to, Imet my form employer, a guy named
Michael Beady who was doing a largemixed use development. He was talking about
it and just kind of laying outhis vision for it. And afterwards I
went up and I spoke with him, told him I was really interested in

(04:13):
learning the business and asked him couldI sit down with him and, you
know, have a coffee and learna little bit more. And that became
the start of a great relationship.But it really I thought that we were,
you know, off to the groundrunning at that point. And it
ended up that I had to chasehim around for about seven months as he
was going through approvals. He wasat the time trying to secure a tax

(04:38):
increment financing package in the City ofBaltimore, and he was having hearing,
so he had about twelve of them, and I show up at every hearing,
sit there for the two hours orso, shake his hand at the
end and say great job, misterbeat And at the last one he said,
you're not gonna leave me loan,are you? And I said I'm
not. He said, all right, I'll give you a job and I

(04:59):
went to go work for him,and that was an extremely, extremely eye
opening and life changing experience because Iwas really able to apprentice under him.
There was only a six person developmentteam, so we had these large scale
mixed use I mean several two threebillion dollar projects and there were only six

(05:21):
of us running them, and soI got to do everything that nobody else
wanted to do, right, whichwas all the stuff you really need to
do to learn the business. Sothat became a really helpful experience for me,
and that's kind of how I gotinto business. And then about five
years ago, I stepped out ofmy own to start my company at CLD

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and we've mostly been focused on residentialhousing in the DMB. That's awesome,
Chris. First, I just wantto say we appreciate you take a time
you're busy hearing your story. Ithink it's transformative, right, and especially
how you laid out. I thinkas a big part of what we're doing
internally, a great deal with theblack professional network or representation matters, and

(06:06):
that it's not an obvious linear pathto get into the industry, whether they're
on the buy side or sell side. So you know, considering we have
a guy like you who's who strappedhis way up from institutional background into being
entrepreneurial. Can you give us someinsights kind of, you know, going
forward, if a young professionals,we're going to get in either your side

(06:27):
on the buy side or the sellside where we sit just kind of some
of those things you're touched touched upon, but other ways that you would you
know, align someone to get setup perfectly to hop into a role and
things they can do to set themselvesup even better kind of, you know
than some bus did by finding ourselvesand having work so aggressively hard to get
in these seats. Yeah, soI think the one of the best things

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you can do is not trying torecreate the will. So what I've done
is I've read any book that Icould find about entrepreneurs, not only in
real estate but in related fields andprivate equity, etc. I read them.
You know, I've read so manyfounder stories, and what you start
to see is that you know,success leaves clues, It follows like a

(07:13):
very similar path. It's like Ihave guys that started I've read stories about
guys in the oil business. I'veread stories about guys in the real estate
field, the people in private equity, and they all have common threads amongst
them. So that's one thing youcan do. And then two, in
that same line of thought, isthat there's so so much information out there

(07:36):
for you. Their podcast like this. You know, I would be watching
this. I do this all thetime and watch other real estate investors on
podcasts, and I learned a lotfrom that. So that's something you can
do. And then three, lookat ways that you can add value.
When I was trying to get ajob and I was getting so many knows,
I mean, it took me reallyseven months to get that job,

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and over time, what I wasdoing, I was just sharpening my skill
set. So I would go andI would pay for a class at Rbland
Institute. So when I pay forthat class, I taught myself how to
model. And that was one showingthat I had skin in the game.
You know, I spent my ownmoney, which I didn't have a lot
of at the time, you know, to learn the skill set too.

(08:18):
I had taken the initiative, youknow, say say, look, I
know that you know, I'm newto this business. I don't have much
too much to offer you. Butwhat I can do is I can hustle
and I can work hard. Andthen the last thing I would be is
the last thing I would say isthat really don't focus on the money.

(08:39):
First I was. I told himI was willing to work for nothing,
you know that, That's what itwas. It was about the experience,
and I also saw any type oftime that I could spend with them.
One of the things I asked for, I said, you know, how
much am I going to be ableto really interact with you? Because interacting
with you, to me, it'spart of my compensation structure. There's no

(09:01):
direct dollar value to it, butit ended up being worth something um in
the future and that was way moreimportant. So you may, you know,
come in at an entry level positionand people may be making more than
you, but you have to havea long term view. I'm thinking ten
twenty years away at all times andgoing back to that. So I mean,

(09:24):
I think, uh, you justlike myself are uh you know,
with us being younger, you know, it obviously gives us a lot more
energy and you know, ability tobe able to go out and take more
risk and do deals and things ofthat sort. However, what we don't
sort of have on our side isgoing through multiple different uh you know cycles
in the market. Um. Soyou know, at this current place that

(09:48):
we're in, you know, withvolatile adjust rates and sort of uh,
you know, we're seeing at leastat this last NIMAC meeting, everybody was
talking about supply and how do wecontrol it and things of that s Um,
how are you looking at the marketbecause obviously you have to have a
sort of longer viewpoint as a developer. You have to look two, three,
five years down the route, um, because that's you know that that

(10:11):
may be your delivert dealerent project.For new deals, you're looking at what's
changed your underrating, you know,or maybe you know into your rent growth
calculations or things of that sort.So how are you viewing the market today
and how has that changed from howyou're viewing the twenty four months ago.
Yeah, so it's a really interestingtime. Like you said, we haven't

(10:35):
went through necessarily as many market cycles, so it's it's all a little bit
new for me. But what's interestingis that if you underwrite a lot of
deals today that they're not working withthe interest rate environment where it is,
sellers have not let off of theirexpectations for land price. You know that
there's still that wherever they were twentyfour months ago, and so a lot

(10:58):
of this is in penciling, soit's going to take a little while from
the market to shake out what I'veat least the way I've approached it is
that, look, if I'm planninga project, it's going to be done
at best twenty four months from now. Right, It's gonna take me twelve
months to get through my drawings andall my permitting and all that, and
then it's going to take me atleast twelve months, most of the time

(11:22):
twenty four months to actually get itbuilt. So you know, we're talking
twenty four thirty six months from nowbefore the project actually delivers. And then
I asked myself, what do Ithink this environment is going to be later
when I started looking at it,supply a slow down a ton. And
so the way I'm really planning outis that I think that we're going to

(11:45):
be right on time for a lotof these projects. Now, the difficulty
is really getting past that first sixmonths securing the project, being able to
finance it. How do you getthe you don't really want to take that
land right now? So we've doneis we've gotten creative. We're working with
a lot of landowners and actually partneringwith them, so we're not carrying land

(12:05):
which east three meals a day,as you know, and we're making them
a part of the capital stack sothat we can have the time to go
through the drawings and the entitlements andget the project under construction on time.
So that's how we've approached it.We're doing that in two or three places
right now where we've actually made adeal with the landowner, we put it
under contract, we're taking it throughentitlements and getting them prepared to start construction.

(12:30):
The good thing is rents have wentup. Rents are strong. Rents
are doing really well. So we'vehad We've got a project that we're living
over in Highlandtown that I know youguys are familiar with. Rents are out
fifteen twenty percent from reperformance, soI still feel good about it. They're
just some things that need to shakeout. As far as the interest rate
environment, Yeah, Chris touched ona few things that are interesting. I

(12:54):
think, you know, we're ina dynamic environment. Being young guys in
the business not necessarily seen kind ofthe inflation and high interest rates in the
seventies and eighties. Right, it'sa it's a new time, but it
provides opportunity to be thoughtful, dynamicwithout your structuring deals which you laid out,
you know, doing co development models, etc. With with landowners is
really creative. Can you walk usthrough then, how you envisioned capitalizing your

(13:18):
deals overall? How do you raisecapital? How do you think about capital?
How do you approach capital when discussing, Hey, it's a patient patrick
kind of environment. We have decentrent growth, you have strong land sites,
we underwrote you know, our basisappropriately. How do you approach capital
these days in this environment when somepeople are how to take a chip to

(13:39):
off table stackond dollars, but yetyou have a track record that's exceptional.
Do you lead into that. Walkus through a little bit how you approach
capital on the equity side, orhow you're capitalizing deals overall? Sure,
so so TC. One really interestingthing that that I found is that you
know, we're always waiting for wewere always waiting for the opportunity for the

(14:01):
market to drop, right, That'swhat everybody always talked about. And then
it dropped, and then everybody youknow, it's feeling the exact opposite.
Now, nobody wants to do anything, so I think it's always a good
time to invest. And basically whatwe've done is we've really ramped up on
the private capital side. So Ipartner with other more experienced developers that you

(14:26):
know, have a big war chest, and so we'll we'll partner up on
the deal and then we'll carry theland together. A lot of times,
like I said, we're bringing inthe landowner, so we don't have that,
you know, that monthly payment,that monthly or yearly payment to carry
the land. So that's been abig way of doing it. And so
for us, it takes us atleast what twelve months before we have to

(14:50):
go out to market. So reallythere's just a there's a beginning strategy,
which is how are we gonna,you know, get through these drawings and
get through the permitting process, andthen it's enter the market type of strategy,
which we can time a little bitbetter now that we can be patient.
YEP. One thing I wanted tobe kick to you. It's interesting

(15:11):
just reading some of your headlines andthis is kind of putting on your entrepreneurial
hat right when you're a developer,I mean as a hatchwear all day long.
Right, it's seeing some of thesefounders that are raising crazy amounts of
money with negative track records. Canyou talk a little bit more about being
a black founder in this environment?And I know you've obviously there's some mother's
sharp professionals and developers that are thatare black and leading the charge like you

(15:37):
earnst from MCB, etc. Youtalk about just like your experience with being
an entrepreneur, being a black founderand how that's that's found you and kind
of some of the challenges but alsosome of the benefits to it. Sure,
so it is there has never beena better time to be a black
entrepreneur in real estate than twenty twentytwo. I know that that goes against

(16:03):
the grain a little bit and andwhat the normal you know, conversation is,
but I truly truly believe that becausethey're for whatever reason, there seems
to have been a reckoning where peoplereally care, you know, people are
really trying to do things differently.They realize that, you know, they're

(16:25):
there's been a missed opportunity in themarket and that there are several underserved areas.
So for us. You know,instead of being on main and main,
we're always on second and second,and so we are investing in a
lot of diverse communities that you know, we understand, well, these are
the communities where people look like us, and I understand how to navigate,

(16:47):
understand that this block is better thanthat block. I mean, these are
all important things. There's a realvalue to having diverse sponsors. So I
have been particularly lucky to have justa couple older mentors like you mentioned,
Dave Bramble from MCB really taking meon his wing, Larry Jennings. I
mean, there's been several guys whohave taken me under the wing and really

(17:10):
been able to help me with institutionalrelationships. There have been you know,
I just that project over in Highlandtown. I had trouble really getting a twenty
five million dollar loan. I mean, and I don't think that's necessarily a
black thing. I would be wearyto let a young guy, you know,
I guarantee of twenty five million dollarsloan too. I mean, I

(17:30):
don't think that's that's a wild thing. But having the co sign from people
like that who really have believed inme and given me a chance has been
helpful, So I don't think there'sa there's a better time. There's a
lot of opportunities in affordable housing space. We've gotten into that, we started
to expand that business. There's alot of lower interest loans. There's so

(17:52):
many things kind of chasing diverse entrepreneurs. So I think there's never a better
time to get into business. Iencourage anybody who's thinking about it. I
mean, now it's definitely the timeperfect And you spoke, uh, this
is actually some about I love thatwho you say a couple of times it's
like to be second on second insteadof being main on main. Um with

(18:15):
you sort of being homegrown and thatthis the areas where you're building, there's
a lot of the you know,areas that you know well. With with
you being local to the DC Baltimorearea. Um, what's I guess been
the most exciting product where you couldsay, you know, you've been able
to sort of ree uh or breathelife back into a community that maybe when

(18:37):
you were growing up and you knowyou drove through that neighborhood or with that
neighboro with your family, you knowwhat was there every neighborhood you looked at
when we were twelve, you like, only if they did X, Y
and z, you know, thiscould be a great place to live and
work or you know, or gotto eat or things like that. Sure,
So we're we're working on a coupleprojects that just are really exciting because

(19:04):
when when you walk around you seeblight um, you see areas that have
really been underserved. And I'm reallyexcited about in Baltimore, I'd say I'm
excited about our Howard Street projects.So we finished up the Saint James over
there's about fifty five units. We'vegot another ninety four units coming behind it

(19:26):
that will be under construction by thistime next year. So that's really excited.
And this was an area that washas really been blighted since the riots.
I mean this, this has beennot the nineteen sixties. It's it's
been blighted for very, very umlong time. So we are we are

(19:47):
there and we are basically creating anew, a new market. It was
hard to find comps that are reallydirectly related to what we're doing. So
we've got three, we've got fourprojects over there on Howard Street, which
used to be a thriving black shoppingdistrict. It's now the Broma Arts District.
So we've got a ton of artistsover there. We've got a ton
of new retail, we have blackowned businesses. We're doing a project right

(20:11):
now that's under construction that has agreat has a great restaurant called Tastince Baltimore
going in the ground floor. Imean, there's a lot of great things
happening, and that's run by acouple of black entrepreneurs, So I'm really
excited about that. In DC,we have a project in Ward eight twenty

(20:32):
five ten shared in a row calledthe Sheridan with the NHP Foundation, which
we're doing housing to people making betweenthirty percent and eighty percent. AMI.
We're super excited about that because oneit's not just affordable housing, so we're
actually trying to stretch the income.So Anakassi has an interesting thing happening right
Anakassi has been able to get alot of affordable housing built, but not

(20:57):
as much market rate. So we'retrying to do is actually stretched the incomes
and anacostia and go the opposite way. So we want to provide a little
bit for everyone, so there willbe the deeply affordable and we will serve
that market, but we'll also goup to eighty percent of the a might
have kind of build a bridge intothe market rate. So I've been really

(21:18):
passionate about just seeing that neighborhood develop, especially because you as you've looked at
DC, you know, a lotof neighborhoods have gotten left behind, and
African Americans particularly have been left behinda lot of the growth. And so
we want to use, I guessAnacossi as a way to show that inclusive
growth can work, and that wecan create a bridge and we can provide

(21:40):
a thriving neighborhood where the demographics stay, stay the way they've kind of been
in DC. So I think thatthere's there's a little bit of everything.
I mean, we're doing projects onthe waterfront, we're doing market rate stuff.
What I really pride our company onis that, you know, we
can go for affordable housing, wecan do workforce, we can do Missing

(22:00):
Battle, or we can do youknow, the luxury waterfront stuff. But
what we really do is we takeit and we find what's most appropriate for
that neighborhood, and then we employit instead of you know, square pay
groundhole type of strategy. We reallytry to figure out which is best tailored
to the long term vitality of thatcommunity. And Chris, this is something

(22:22):
that I think we discussed a littlebit, just like offline. But I'm
curious going back into like the raisingmoney and so of you building your brand.
Uh as a developer. You knowwith every project that you do,
umt you've mentioned you guys are doinga lot of different projects. H what

(22:44):
are you Are you having trouble withraising money for something that's you know,
non affordable because if there's some sortof h preconceived notions from black developers,
is strictly being affordable, Guys,when you go out and you say you
want to go do luxury waterfront,uh, are you facing more friction because
that sort of seems to be outof the bucket for a black developer,
then you would be if you're youknow, doing a project like the one

(23:07):
you mentioned in Anacosti And Yeah,so that's interesting. I think the the
short answer is, even with myexperience and my relationships, it's it's always
hard. UM. I don't knowif it's because I'm black, I don't,
I don't, I don't know exactlywhat it is. But it's always

(23:30):
hard to raise capital for these projectsand too really right sides, and so
it takes a while to really buildup, um the relationships and buy wow.
I mean like a decade, youknow, to really have the right
relationships to employing some of these projects. So we're on a deal by deal
basis and we're scraping stuff together.As you know. On the Highland Town

(23:52):
project, I mean, our capitalstack looked very interesting. We had spaced
financing, which is energy efficial andfinancing, which I know you guys know
about. UM, we had crowdfundeda piece of equity on that right,
we had a private equity firm outof Denver coming and putting some money.
I mean, we had to reallycobble this together. On other ones,

(24:14):
we've you know, done friends andfamily type raises as we scaled up.
That doesn't work, doesn't work aswell, you know when you're talking about
larger checks. But we've really donewhatever we can to get to get a
project done. UM. A lotof it is finding great partners and Anacostly,
we have a great partner in anNHB Foundation, and they've been able
to you know, share in someof the upfront risk. So Yeah,

(24:37):
it's it's on a deal by dealbasis. It's always difficult, but it's
all it's also always fun, it'salways creative, and you know, that's
that's the game. That's that's whatwe're in it for. So and and
being young and obviously taking down theselarger projects. Uh. And like you
mentioned, you're mainly doing second onsecond, So I would imagine you're you're

(24:59):
getting better return to your investors,but there's probably probably also a level of
perceivers there as well. What whatsort of has separated you, um as
a developer, H when you're goingto raise capital or you know, when
you're uh, I guess, saygoing to you know, to sell your
deal to a bank for a loanor to sell that sort of um or

(25:22):
when you're bringing partners for that matter. Uh what what what has been your
sort of market differentiator? Uh?You know to say this is why I'm
a guy to do this project.You know, this is why I can
do this deal and get these numbers. So, yeah, you get nail
and have with that. So thesecond and second strategy is interesting because so

(25:47):
if we're talking about a main andmain project, you know, they may
give you a twelve fifteen percent.I r R that that type of do
they usually hover into twelve to fourteenspace. Uh, we're underwriting a lot
of times twenty and above, andlike that project you mentioned, I mean,
we're at like a twenty seven orsomething like that right off the bat.

(26:08):
And so we're going to give youhigher returns. And we're able to
do that a couple of ways,one of which is a low land basis,
So we need to kind of skatewhere the puck is going. And
so we're buying that for at leasttwenty thirty percent below market. We're finding
these people before the neighborhood is hot, and we're approaching these landowners and we're

(26:32):
getting in at a great basis.Two, we are building for the most
competitive prices possible. So what we'vedone instead of using always the largest contractors,
we found smaller contractors and scale themup our found operations with you know,
less overhead. That's been a reallyeffective strategy for us. So we're

(26:52):
building for a lower price for scriptfoot than most people are doing. And
we're also signing our contractor update.One our contractors sitting at the table from
the moment we start the drawings towhen we finish them. Every single step
along the way, they're reviewing themand they're saying, okay, we're still
aligned with the number that we wantto meet. So we from day one
we say, our expectation is thisprice, this is what we need to

(27:15):
meet, and you need to letus know if we're not going to be
aligned with that. So those aretwo things we do. And then three
we always deliver a really high qualityproduct. So we make sure that even
though you know it's on second andsecond it is a class A product,
it looks just as good, ifnot better, then these other bigger ones,

(27:36):
and we're able to actually compete alittle bit better than some of these
larger, let's call it merchant buildersthat are pushing out a project. Because
I'm there every day, I'm focusedon every single finish. I know every
single light that went in there,i know every single type of break,
every single finish I'm involved with alongwith the architecture team, making sure that

(27:56):
the place is considered and I thinkthat it shows an final product. When
you can be focused on that now, as you grow, it's probably gonna
be harder for me to, youknow, do that as much. For
right now, that's definitely an advantagethat we have. That's awesome, Chris,
It's it's it's impressive, you know, the the breath of projects you're

(28:18):
you're undertaking and the kind of thethoughtfulness in what you're approaching it just from
pure underwriting standpoint, right, projectmanagement standpoint. But then something you touched
upon, um that I also youtry to be emissed with that mentioning is
kind of the impact you and yourfamily pad in the region right for years.
UM. So you're building places thatare safe, welcoming and affordable.

(28:41):
Um. And you know, Ithink you know something I always find time
to try to ask for us likeyourself that are doing things exceptionally well,
as you're probably doing things behind thescenes esceptionally well. Also, so why
don't you talk a little bit aboutsome on the personal side. I know
you're involved in the community away fromjust your projects. Things passionate about things
that you know, keep you grounded, things that you really enjoy. I

(29:03):
think, you know, it alwaysbeneficial for our listeners to know. You
know, a lot of us wearmultiple hats, right, and so some
of the things you're doing separately youwant us to know about that you're passionate
about what you find important and youknow that that are helping, you know,
behind the scenes. Like I said, from being a Baltimore we certainly
appreciate what you and your family havebeen doing, so you know, give

(29:23):
us a little insights, are sure. So like you said, I mean
both both of my parents have basicallybeen in community service and wearing one hat
another their whole life. So that'sbeen certainly ingrained in every view and I
do. I try my best togive back in several ways. So I'm

(29:44):
involved with a lot of nonprofits,um the Housing Association for Nonprofit Developers and
that again not only is that nonprofit that I'm involved with, but it
goes into affordable housing, you knowbusiness that we have which is it and
all melts together. Giving back ispart of the business plan. It's all
part of the impact based strategy thatwe have, so that's important. I'm

(30:08):
involved with the Threat, which isa volunteer program where we basically mentor younger
kids from the city and we createbasically a thread family. We text every
week, we meet up, wego get peace, so we check on,
you know, the development of anyof our kids and all that type

(30:30):
of stuff. We also super involvedwith the umb Pure of Scholars is a
very very important cause and I'm passionateabout and basically what that is. It's
starting with STEM education for kids fromat rest neighborhoods, and so we're actually
we've been part of a fundraising campaignthere for the past twenty four months.

(30:52):
Now we're you know, we're exceedingour goals. And that's something I'm really
passionate about because I think the worldof work is changing. I think a
lot of these these entry level jobsare starting to go away, and so
we need to get people really preparedfor STEM education and all the types of
jobs that are going to be herein the future to make sure that we
can continue to grow. I thinkthat the I'm going to get in my

(31:18):
soapbox, but I think that themost important thing right now is like the
what I call the second Civil Rightsmovement, which is economic inclusion. And
so I'm very focused on building upthat part of the community because I think
that that can cure a lot ofthe ills that we see. I think
that the more we can build upthat part of it and build up that
base where we have people with resourcesthat can give jobs. So for instance,

(31:45):
I've got several younger people in thebusiness that have come to me that
look like us, who I've givenopportunities, who I'm scaled up with.
I know you guys know some ofthem. Hey, look, you got
a project that you don't necessarily haveto passing it to do, Gonna deal
with you. I'm going to bringinto capital, I'm going to bring anything
best and I'm gonna mouse for youthe same way I said those guys found
for me. And so what thatstarts is just a train of people,

(32:08):
you know, uh, teaching eachother and reaching back and you know,
helping out the next generation. Ithink that's how you really create a lasting
impact. So those are some ofthe things that you know, and I
think you you actually hit a greatpoint that we discussed as well, and
uh in Black Professionals Network. Ithink me and Tis said is one of

(32:30):
previous podcasts as well. You know, we can hire a hundred black rovers
at the firm, but I mean, I think the true impact would be
if we're able to you know,raisee add additional one hundred million dollars to
well to the after eric community byhaving a stronger access to capital or uh,

(32:50):
you know, through the educational commerciallistening. Um so, you know,
I definitely uh, you know,commend you for a lot of this
left I'm not front as well.Um so, I mean to that point,
obviously, this industry seems scary,uh for for those who aren't in
it yet. I know for megetting into corceral estate, you know,

(33:13):
uh seem seemed way too big fromthe outside look new when you get into
you know, you can you sortof see uh it's just just you know,
traditional business like anything else. Um, how have you been able with
those youth that you're working with sortof cut down the initial barriers of wow,
this seems too big or you know, I can never do this.
I can never own an asset ofthat value. Uh. You know if
they're looking at their bank account andthey see that have no money, and

(33:36):
you know, they're like, howhow can I do with twenty million dollars?
Deal? Uh? So, Imean, what what sort of advice
or guidance are you giving that twentytwo year old who just graduated from Morgan
State or Howard or you know,insert any university. Uh instance. I
want to get into development. Iwant to be developer. I'm want to
give our scale projects I want tohave a two hundred million dollars portfolio amount

(34:00):
of time. Yeah, so Ithink the best I mean, I can
show you that, I can tellyou that that's probably the best piece of
advice. And so what I dois I have young guys who reach out
to me all the time, andI'll bring them out to a site and
I'll show them the project and I'lltalk with them candidly about how we did

(34:22):
it. I'll talk to him candidlyabout how we finance it, about how
you know, with these projects,the one over on Howard Street twenty million
dollars, the thirty million dollars projecton the East Side zero dollars, you
know initially into that and there's away to do that. You know,
when you have a deal and youare adding value, you can often partner

(34:43):
up with somebody who has what youdon't have. So you have to have
something right, you have to havethe experience and you or you have to
have a deal, but you don'tnecessarily need the money piece. You can
find somebody who, hey, thiscapital are also changing your mindset how you
look at that. This capital needsto be placed. There are people who
need to get capital out and soyou're actually helping them with the problem that

(35:04):
they need to solve, and soit ends up being a there's some real
synergy between you when you can matchup capital with great projects that can have
a great, safe return. Sothere's ways to do this without end.
Again, after reading, I startedto realize, oh, this is happening
at all levels. This is otherpeople's money. Like when we're talking about

(35:24):
one hundred million dollars, when we'retalking about a billion dollar deal, all
of this is other people's money.That's how that's how this market survives.
And so I used to think whenI saw a big building and I saw
somebody's name on it, you know, it's a fifty million dollars building,
I'm like, damn, like I'mI'm never gonna have fifty million dollars,
Like, you know, like,how am I ever going to be able
to do that project? That's nevergonna happen. But when you start peeling

(35:46):
back the onion, Okay, allright, well, oh so seventy percent
of that is coming from a bank. Okay, seventy percent of that's a
loan that's going to be paid backfrom the rent from the building. Okay,
cool. Then thirty percent of exacuity. Okay, so now I need
this called one hundred million dollars project. I need thirty million dollars worth equity.
That's a lot. Oh Okay,ninety percent of that it's coming from

(36:09):
another institution, right, and thenyou can raise the other piece of it
from private investors. I mean,you start breaking it down and it starts
to becoming more manageable when we starttalking about these small numbers. Of course,
it's still it's not easy. It'snot something you walk into, but
there's a path to get there,and people have done it before you.

(36:29):
One thing that's really inspirational is someof the local investors. I mean,
Larry Jennings was from Park Heights.You know, he grew up in Park
Heights, and if you're from thearea, you know this is severely,
severely underserved area. He was ableto build it up and manage a billion
dollars. We've seen Dave Bramble,who's from Madison Park. You know,

(36:52):
this guy is managing three billion dollarsand place some money all over the country,
buying assets everywhere. So now youcan actually see it. You can
sit down with these guys. Theseguys are real, they'll be honest with
you about their experiences about how toget it done and by no means as
easy, but as possible. AndI think that that's the seed that needs
to be planted, um and justmaking sure we get the word out there

(37:15):
there are people like you. Ithink previous generations like they didn't see anybody
look like them doing what they're doingright now. Now we have that continuity
that we can pass down from generations, and I'm really excited about. I
mean, there's a ton of peoplethat can see you guys like that.
They didn't see you guys before,right like that that didn't exist. I'm
sure you guys need to see alot of you before you were here.

(37:37):
And so now you know, wehave a great opportunity on our hands to
get something really special started. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean
I think I think one plus oneshould before you know, in that uh
you know, before I came tovere Steel, I was looking at TC

(37:57):
and now those profiles and that sortof brought me to the being and you
know, after me, you know, two in four in more game.
Um. You know, I Idefinitely agree, and I love your your
approach and that um, so Imean, going back to another point,
you kind of spoke about your underwriting, how you're looking at the market,
how you're looking at deals, howyou look at new construction today. Um

(38:22):
So another question obviously, you knowI'm showing you deals, You've looked at
deals and you know both DCM Baltimore. Uh, I know you foul being
extremely conservative when you're underwriting, youknow, and wanting to make sure you're
a good story of your investor's capital, uh, with being young, with
you know, being aggressive as well. How do you sort of have that
uh, that balance between wanting togo out uh and aggressively buy deals and

(38:46):
you know and be extremely active.Uh you know while you're still uh young
in your career. You know,being you know, at this age,
driving your is your advantage. Uh, and you sort of have more were
uh you have a better view intothe future of the market. Um So,
I mean, how do you sortof balance that with also being conservative

(39:08):
your investors capital with buying deals andthen also maintaining good deal flow so you're
not you know, necessarily so conservativethat you're missing on opportunities. And then
with that, has there been anydeals where you said, hey, look
this, you know this just doesn'tpencil. Maybe the stuggressive someone else went
on and did and you went backand you're like, you know, maybe
I could have made that work.Yeah. So I think I think I'm

(39:36):
having that iterative process right now whereI'm kind of figuring out and backing off
of some of my original assump justbecause, as you know, Aaron,
I was, hey, if I'mnot buying this for fifty percent off,
you know, I'm not. I'mnot doing it. So I'm learning because
I'm not winning as many deals,so you know, kind of let off

(39:57):
of it a little bit and learnover time. Even though it is a
great time, like I said,there's never been a better time to be,
you know, a young entrepreneur inthis business. I am very aware
that you know, a bad,bad deal can sink you, you know,
So I want to be super conservativein the way that I approach things

(40:21):
because I don't want to get necessarilyyou know, that state in my career.
You know, this early on.So I'm like you said, I'm
super conservative. I'm sort of youknow, loosening up, loosing up the
reins a little bit over time.But it's it's a learning process that I'm
getting more comfortable with. And yes, there have been deals that I've seen

(40:45):
get done. But again, youknow, in this game, what's really
successful like getting the deal done anddelivering it Like that's one thing. But
where are they three years later?Where are they wants this interest rate envirote
once they have floating debt and thisinterest rate environment changes, you know,
we'll see, you know, howthat deal really was in an environment like

(41:07):
today. So and I mean,and going back to that, did you
have any sort of deals that maybeyou looked at, you know, call
it twenty four or eighteen months ago, where you put some you know,
some fixed rate debt on something andnow you're looking back at it like get
back on it, Like that's thebest decision ever made. And I talked
a few sponsors who you know,uh, locked up some good debt twenty

(41:30):
twenty, twenty twenty one, uhat you know, very great pricing.
Uh, and now I want togo for it. That's basically like,
you know, the best thing abouttheir deal. You know, it's not
the rinker that they got, youknow, not whatever performance, but you
know, but the debt that theywere able to lock in long term.
Now that you know, we arewhere we are right now, I meant
to environment. Yeah, so thereisn't one deal we've done so far,

(41:57):
and I think we've done maybe nowthere's a one deal we've done so far
that I'm not happy with house perform. I've been happy with every every single
one of them and satisfied because wedid stay about a couple of deals that
I could see just just right herejust from looking outside that I'm happy that
I didn't do. Actually, especiallywith this changing environment, because there were

(42:19):
a couple of times when I almosttalked myself into it, you know.
And there are a couple of timeswhen I talked myself into a bit and
I submitted it, and luckily wedidn't get chosen because if we got chosen,
I might be in a different youknow, this might be a different
conversation. So again with being earlyin the business and being young like we
are, it's you don't have thewar chest necessarily to weather these things.

(42:42):
And liquidity is always always a thing. Right. So we've we've built a
lot, but we haven't really soldthat much, right, And so liquidity
and having the liquidity to be ableto outlast some of these cycles is important.
So making sure you don't you know, you're not over leverage, you
don't overreach. It's super super criticalto making sure that your company stays healthy

(43:05):
long term and cheers. Another point, I know you and I we spoke
about a little bit like goal setting, and you know what best practices are
around that. U obviously you hadto be extremely focused to be able to
get to this point in your career. Um, you know, at this
age, I think you know whenyou look around at some of your counterparts

(43:28):
that you're saying age, you'll probablyyou know, maybe just now hitting senior
level positions at development firms, whereas you're you know, leading your own
business and have you know, aton of deals under your belt. Um,
when you look forward on like afive, ten, twenty year basis,
you know, like, how areyou setting your goals? I think
we kind of spoke about in someways, you setting a goal is almost

(43:51):
like limitation where maybe you say,I don't know, maybe two years ago
you would have looked at it andsaid, you know, maybe I want
to do X amounted deals. Butjust by not having a cap on that
goal, you may have already youknow, outpaced that. How do you
sort of go about your goal setting? You set them at a market you
see is unreachable, so you canfall short. You know, you kind

(44:12):
of shoot for the moon and laneon the cloud or um. What would
you suggest, you know, toany sort of young entrepreneur looking at to
be successful in detail business goal settingrespect. Yes, so I think goal
setting is super super important and Iredo it every three to six months,
you know, I write down mygoals. And so I was just going

(44:36):
to have a picture the other day. It was during the pandemic, so
I'm guessing it was about twenty twenty. You know, my hair was growing
out. I was looking crazy,but it said a thousand units by twenty
twenty two, right, And Iremember at the time, like I always
try to set reasonably unrealistic goals,is what I would call them. And

(44:58):
at the time, I'm sure thatthat was crazy. I don't know,
we're probably at like three hundred orsomething like that. And now you know,
we passed the think nine twenty aswe were at right now, and
hopefully you know, we passed athousand by the end of the year.
So that at the time was reallyan unrealistic goal. I mean we were
really stretching to do that, andlook at where we are just two years
later. So I always try totry to redo my goals. I think

(45:22):
it's important, you know, notjust to you know, to shoot the
arrow, but to be able toaim in in the right direction. And
so it's important to stretch yourself andto always have that stuff and write it
down, writing down to another likebig big key, having written down,
make sure you can see it.I hang it up on my wall to

(45:43):
make sure that I can see itwhen I when I go pass. So
we met some of those unrealistic goalsin the past, and you know,
now I've got a new unrealistic goals. I think the next one should be
five thousand units, then ten thousand, and then you know, and then
a lot of a lot of mygoals today are actually about net equity numbers.
So I, you know, Ialways wanted the big, the big

(46:05):
unit number, but now it's like, okay, what's your net equity?
You know, how how do youfigure that out? And I'm solving for
that. So maybe we don't growas much in the in the unit space,
but we own more and more ofthese projects. Are continue to buy
down more so that own projects thatwe are ready to own more projects that
were already a part of. Sothat's that's actually very interest you see a

(46:27):
lot of developers were sponsors, uhsort of quote their assets under management like
it's like the points per game andthey're like, you know, NBA player
or something like that. Like,so it's actually interesting here You're you're calculating
net equity as opposed to total asunder management or total units um. And
do you think because you're using thatdifferent metric, uh, that kind of

(46:52):
like does that give you more directionas to the wealth building you know,
like for yourself and your company andyour family. Uh, since you're you
know what you're true sort of welkingis and all these products you're doing.
For sure, I think I thinkit's an interesting way to look at it.
UM. Like you said, youcan get caught up with the scoreboard
and you know, have you know, eighty thousand units? I don't know,

(47:15):
you know, that's that's some ofthe larger the Star Wars and people
like that. They're they're owning that, you know, that size portfolio,
But really how much of it doyou own? And what's the best way
to maintain ownership? I mean there'sso many really where I'm at with the
company is that I'm deciding how we'regoing to grow now, right, And
so there's a couple of avenues.I think institutional capital is fine, like

(47:37):
really open to us in a realway because now we have a track record.
But how do we maintain a significantownership stake while taking on outside capital
and trying to structure that and figuringout the best practices for that? Is
it large family offices? Is ityou know, going some of these larger
funds that are focused on project likelike my And the good thing is there

(48:00):
is a good amount of capital basefocused on the problems that we're trying to
solve. So it's a really excitingtime for that. But how do I
grow and maintain you know, astrong equity position. And then also how
long do you want to own thesethings? You know, certain funds you
know they gotta get they got toget that money back to the pension funds.

(48:21):
You know that people have penches thatneed to get paid, They need
those quick IRRs. They want toget out, you know, within a
year of stabilization, that type ofdeal. But I've seen a lot of
people build long term wealth from owningand never selling, and so what does
that look like and what's the bestway to approach. And I'm not sure
I quite answered that question. Yeah, because you know, there's a chicken

(48:43):
of the a thing, there's aliquidity thing, and then there's a long
term ownership. But these are justthings that I'm thinking about and kind of
going through today, and I thinkthis would kind of towards our favor.
But I mean to that point,uh, in terms of looking at a

(49:04):
forever hole model. Uh. Andalso you know, looking at a when
is the right time to make acell and trade up? How are you
sort of consistently running those models throughthe time of ownership, are you?
Uh? You know, as asbrokers to see in myself, we always
suggest for all groups, I wouldsay two to four times a year,

(49:27):
get a gut check from a Bobperspective, you know, to understand where
you are on the market. Uh, and you know what what your asset
value is at that point, andfor any other reason, if you could
basically side your building up against otherplayers in the market. Um. So
maybe you know, maybe you doa B A V and you find out
your rent or two low uh,and somebody else would come in and buy

(49:47):
a certain prints because they think theycan get tanks, you know, on
the rents or things like that.What what what do you guys sort of
do to constantly sort of have yourpost in the marketplace to understand, you
know, what your asset value isor maybe when it's time to trade.
And guy in my Susan, Imean, I think it's I think it's
talking to guys like you. Imean, I you know, we've talked

(50:08):
about doing a couple of bobs umgetting appraisals and just really staying up.
I mean, we're constantly looking atcostar data to see, you know,
where the rents are and how they'removing. And I've honestly been surprised at
how much stuff has moved. Andagain I'm learning as we go along.
Now they've had time in the market, I'm like, Wow, these rents

(50:29):
really do move a lot. Theyhave that three percent every year can add
up. You know, once youstart looking back, you're like, oh,
I remember when these rents used tobe twelve hundred bucks. You know
that I was fourteen, I wasfifteen, Like you start to see that,
see that change. So, Imean, we're always relooking at deals.
The beauty of our business is thatyou know, when we're doing a

(50:52):
new ground up project, I'm runninga new model and I'm plugging in the
rents and I'm looking at comps andI'm like, Okay, sometimes that makes
me go back and look at oneof our cur a assets. Okay,
if I'm underwriting this here, youknow, and these rents are now at
seventeen eighteen hundred for one bedroom,how about that property that we still had
at fifteen sixteen hundred? Where shouldthat be placed now? And so I'm

(51:13):
always one shopping new projects. Ifthere's a new project, you know,
I'm I'm there, I'm doing atour and I'm I'm figuring out what they're
offering me, how many months freeof rent they're offering, where the rents
are at? And then I'm takingthat information that I'm going back and I'm
adjusting our business model based on that. And in some of these markets where

(51:36):
you're building, uh, there maynot be a ton of a ton of
apartments, you know, in thatcommunity in itself, and so i'd say,
like within that you know three orfour block radius, uh, where
you're doing the deal. If you'rebuilding a two hundred unit community and you

(51:57):
know that there there may only befour hundred rmits. You know within that
neighborhood, you're essentially adding a wholeother elements in the neighborhood. How are
you underwriting that added supply to themarket. And in some cases have you
been able to sort of deliver aproject and in grow rents and the entire
neighborhood by you know, maybe addinglike the ground floor of detail, but

(52:20):
to be building uh that that pushesvalues for for everybody in that area.
Yeah, So our projects are oftendifficult to underwrite because where you know,
we're the first mover or we're thelargest building on the block type of deal,
so we reasonably guess um where therents are going to be. And
the good thing is that we're alwaystwenty thirty percent below the top of the

(52:44):
market, and so we're able toget banks comfortable with that because we're always
so conservative. So like in HighlandTown, where thirty percent lower than the
can rents right, and so whereasour neighborhood may not have been as proven,
they're like, well, I don'tthink that you're going to get the
water for at rents, but Icould believe that you're going to get thirty

(53:05):
percent below right, and then we'llpoint to some smaller assets in the area
that are renting. And so that'skind of how we form it. But
it really takes one creativity and twolike some real faith from the bank and
being able to explain your numbers ina way in your business model a way
that makes sense. And that's that'sdifficult when you're sort of pioneering in a
neighborhood. But we've got now atthis point a track record where banks understand

(53:30):
that, hey, look we're inthe neighborhood. When I'm starting a project
there, I'm going and I'm eating, I'm understanding exactly who lives there,
that type of deal. And sowe've now got you know, a trust
built up with these institutional partners thatare helping us, that are helping them
believe our underwriting. I would say, so that's kind of been our strategy

(53:51):
so far asolutely absolutely, and thenjust as as we're getting close to wrapping
this up here, Um, whatthree pieces of advice would you say,
uh, you would you would giveto an aspiring real estate entrepreneur, whether

(54:15):
that be you know, getting ina brokerage development, uh, you know,
whether they want to be a valueadd investor or so on and so
forth, what sort of like threethings actually, let me not cap you,
what would you say are the mostimportant elements uh to being successful in
business as an aspiring entrepreneur. Andand you said we're your week week points

(54:42):
early on that I guess you strengthenedover your time business three things to everything.
Um, there's been so much ofour business has really come from uh,
not really repeat clients because you don'tyou know, you don't necessarily build
this building twice or have the sameclient, but just from word of mouth.

(55:02):
Hey, you know we're doing aheadquarters for Black Arts District right now,
you know, And that's because somebodyelse vouse for us. Are I've
had several investors come to me fromother investors that have invested with us,
that have been happy with the returnsthat we're giving them, have been happy
that we followed through on what wesaid we would do. That's been super
super important, and it's expanded ourrelationships. It's expanded our capital base,

(55:24):
it's expanded the real estate opportunities wesee in terms of land, so relationships
and everything. That's Number one tobe curious. Curiosity is super super important
and part of that is really alwayslearning, always looking at the latest podcast,
always looking at the latest YouTube videos. I mean, there's so much

(55:45):
stuff for you to learn today,right, There's so many opportunities to get
more information and to go deep ona subject. I don't care if you
want to be an electrician. Ifyou start youtubeing how to be an electrician,
you're going to see a ton ofcontent based on that. And so
there's just really no excuse to notget your education up in terms of whatever

(56:08):
you feel maybe whether that's real estateor something else. And then three,
set large, large goals. Ithink that simply setting the goal, writing
it down, speaking it, andbeing diligent about working hard and follow through.

(56:31):
If you do those things, you'llbe really surprised with the results.
And I've continually surprised myself by settinglarger goals over and over again and then
running towards them and working hard asfast as possible to try to, you
know, to meet them, andso that has been super surprising to me.
I mean, I'm surprised with honestlya lot of a lot of the

(56:53):
results, but that's from setting thefirst goal and say, okay, I
wonder if I could start development covering. Right. When I started development company,
I was going to do a house. That's what I wanted to do,
like I had done these large projects. But I'm like, I'm never
gonna be able to find the moneyto do an apartment building, like right,
so I'm gonna start flipping houses.As soon as I set that going,

(57:13):
I stepped out there, I gotintroduced to an investor who said,
hey, look, why don't youdo Do you really want to do house?
I'm like, no, well,that's you know, that's what I
don't do it. Why don't youdo an apartment building with you? All
right, yeah, I'll do I'lldo an apartment building with you, you
know, and then from there,you know, doing that size apartment building,
then meeting other investors that are like, oh hey, look I saw

(57:35):
what you did over here. Howabout you know, we think a little
bit bigger. Now, let's tryone hundred and fifty units, let's try
a two hundred units. All thattype of deal. That's all come from
stepping in faith, setting a goal, stepping in faith, working hard,
and following through. And I thinkthose are those are the three really important
things. That's awesome, Chris,You've been far too generous with your time,

(58:04):
so we appreciate it. But sowhy don't we kind of kick it
and turn this on a ted alittle bit. Um, what are some
things maybe our listeners are hearing inthis or others outside? Right, you're
scaling, you're integrating your platform thoughtfully, moving towards institutional capital, which is
a major crux right to hyper accelerateyour business. So you know, what

(58:25):
are some things you love the audienceto hear from you, or if if
anybody out there can help out,what are some things you just like our
audience to know about CLD so inthe future, anybody can be helpful.
So somebody like me, who isyou know, trying to trying to learn
in the business, um, tryingto really figure it out and grow career.

(58:45):
I'm happy to happy to speak withyou. I'm always available, you
know you you read I'm not alwaysavailable. That's a lie. I lie
just now. But if you reachout to me, I would do my
best, you know, to dissesssomething up. I sit down with young
guys all the time and show themobjects and you know, really just try
to get back. So that's reallyimportant to me. And otherwise, you

(59:06):
know, I'm just looking forward togrowing this business side. I'm passionate about
what we do. UM. Icould not be more excited to be in
this business, more excited and gratefuljust to be a part of this UM.
So I just I appreciate the timeguys, to appreciate the you know,
the time sitting down and talk withyou guys. Absolutely, And then

(59:35):
one one last thing actually just topicking back off that. Obviously we have
our INITIATI back great steel through ourblack essionals network that we're pushing. You
have a part of the cef IS work with developers, UM get them,
you know, increase access to capital. What other sort of things uh
do you think? You know?Is it needed sort of ad to be

(59:57):
able to U to bring more UHAfrican American developers, uh, you know
up through the ranks UM or injust adding more commercialistic professionals that look like
us. UM that that you're notreally seeing implemented through some of these university
programs at firms or banks or uhyou know, every providers or you know

(01:00:19):
wherever. UM. What do youthink it's sort of the missing tidbit that
you think? Uh would I thinkuh? You know, having mentorship is
extremely important That's been something that's beenreally helpful to me. So continuing to
expand that mentorship base is super important. But one thing that was very difficult

(01:00:42):
UM in just the entrepreneurship space isthat you have to figure out how to
get past that hard period, whichis when you first start, while you're
building your business, while you're tryingto get cash flow in UM. That's
a very difficult piece to get past, especially if it's not coming from friends

(01:01:04):
and family, and so solving forthat is difficult. What I've what I
was able to do is I've hadsome of the best partners around and they've
allowed me to take out loans togainst my future fees. That's been super
that That's a gem that I wouldencourage other people to pursue. That's what
really helped me float over time.It really took five years to become profitable.

(01:01:25):
I mean it, you know,it looks good, we're doing good
stuff, but it took a verylong time to really break out of that.
And I could see why a lotof people would fall during that time,
and so we could have if itwasn't for doing that. You know,
we had the same skill set.We ran the projects, the same
way. But we would have notmade it just because we couldn't make it's

(01:01:50):
because we couldn't, you know,eat within that time, we couldn't pay
our bills. And so I thinksolving for that is super super important in
figuring out how weekend bridge that thathard part, because it's really unavoidable when
you're starting a new business. Isit's gonna be there? I don't it
maybe a year, it maybe fivelike me, who knows, but it's
an unavoidable piece of it. Andso solving for that, UM, I

(01:02:15):
think it's important. Awesome, awesome, completely agree. Well, Chris,
thank you for your time again asalways, you know, can keep up
the great work and you know it'sbeen a pleasure, uh to watch your

(01:02:35):
appreciate it, and uh you can'twait to see if you have next.
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