October 29, 2025 • 40 mins
True Crime Documentary - The Search for JonBenét's Killer
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The man?
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Sorry, please plain to me?
Speaker 4 (00:17):
What's going on?
Speaker 5 (00:17):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (00:18):
The western.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
A note again? How old is your daughter?
Speaker 6 (00:27):
She is forever frozen in time. John Benet Ramsay six
years old, dress for a beauty pageant and we still
don't know who killed her. The day after Christmas in
(00:47):
nineteen ninety six, John Bennet was reported missing with a
rambling ransom note left at the scene. Several hours later,
she was found dead in her own home, bludgeoned and strangled.
It was a media sensation. Suspicion fell on her parents,
John and Patsy Ramsey. The couple was never charged, but
(01:10):
early on there was a police theory that Patsy Ramsey
may have killed her daughter in a fit of rage
over bed wedding and then covered it up. Now in
his eighties, John Ramsey is still trying to clear his
and Patsy's names.
Speaker 7 (01:26):
Finding the killer isn't going to change my life at
this point, but it will change the lives of my
children and my grandchildren. This cloud needs to be removed
from our family's head, and this chapter closed for their benefit.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
So there is an answer.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
I'll have more from that interview later, but first, a
time capsule. A look back at how forty eight Hours
covered the story in two thousand and two.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested
us in a New York minute.
Speaker 8 (02:12):
Take a look at this.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I did not kill my child.
Speaker 8 (02:15):
Forty eight Hours Investigates has obtained the police interrogation tapes
of John and Patsy Ramsey, never made public until tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I don't give a flying flip how clientific it is.
Go back to the damn drawing board.
Speaker 8 (02:30):
Aaron Moriarty heads up our six month investigation.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
I don't think the Ramseys did it, and I think
they ought to start looking for people that did.
Speaker 8 (02:37):
Forty eight hours Investigates searching for a killer.
Speaker 7 (02:45):
She was the sparkplug of our family because of this
zest that she had. She just kept things alive and popping.
It's not the same without her.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Why is it so hard for people to understand that
we love this child with everything in our being. We
would never touch a hair on the head of one
of our children. I mean, it just is inconceivable to me.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Their faces are instantly recognizable, but John and Patsy Ramsay
are famous in a way no one would want. Although
they've never been publicly called suspects or charged with a
nineteen ninety six death of their daughter John Bennet. They
are resigned to a painful reality.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
We could find the killer tomorrow, he could be arrested, convicted,
and jailed, and there'd still be twenty percent of the
population would think that we had something to do with it.
Speaker 6 (03:52):
Did your daughter have a bed wedding incident that night?
Did you get up? Did you get angry? And did
you hurt her?
Speaker 9 (03:59):
No?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I did not.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
What is your reaction when you know many people think
that's what you did?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
They are wrong. I don't know what else to say.
How else do you say no? Except no? No means no?
Come on?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Come on.
Speaker 6 (04:19):
Over the last several months, we have spent a great
deal of time with the Ramseys, these favorite villains of
the tabloids.
Speaker 10 (04:26):
The big old tires make the smartest turn.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
And I've seen them in a way few others have.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
Fishing box that hadn't been used for a long time.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
On this day, just this past summer, John and Patsy
Ramsey are moving.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Life has never been the same, and it has basically
ruined us financially and emotionally and everything else. So we're standing.
This is my wedding dress.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
They are selling their million dollar home in Atlanta and
moving to a smaller townhouse just down the road. John Ramsey,
once ahead of a billion dollar software company, hasn't worked
for four years, while Patsy has been quite literally fighting
for her life.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
This is my self portrait. Here's my broken heart.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
Volunteers in a rare, unguarded moment.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I thought I would paint during my cancer treatment, but
I was just so sick.
Speaker 6 (05:33):
I couldn't without her makeup, without her wig, without even
her eyebrows. Drawn in you can clearly see the damage
left by the return of her cancer. How did you
find out?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
I was back?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
In February?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
From my annual checkup.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Nine years ago, Patsy learned she had stage four ovarian cancer.
She made what she hoped was a full recovery, but
earlier this year she again went through debilitating chemotherapy. You
lost your.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Hair, Yeah it's going back, My eyebrows are going back.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It all comes out.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
But you know what, that's very little thing to worry about.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
In fact, Patsy Ramsey has much bigger concerns. Almost from
the moment, the body of their six year old daughter
John Bennet was discovered. Bolder police believed John and Patsy
killed their daughter and then staged a kidnapping, complete with
a rambling two and a half page ransom note to
cover it up.
Speaker 7 (06:35):
They've never investigated this case other than to investigate the family.
They have never investigated this case.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Police say they haven't ruled out other theories. To this day,
the Ramseys remain the prime suspects. As you will see
in this videotape obtained exclusively by forty eight hours, you.
Speaker 11 (06:55):
Have not classified any individual as a suspect publicly correct.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Well, testifying under oath in a civil case. Just last November,
Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner admitted what he had never
before said publicly.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Internally, John and Patsy are considered suspects.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Both of them.
Speaker 11 (07:14):
Yes, are considered to have probably been involved in the
death of their daughter probability.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
Yes, Why do you think you remained probably the prime
suspect in the eyes of the Bolder police.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I asked Mark Beckner that I came closer to him
in the face than I am to you, Aaron, And
I said, tell me what it is that makes you
think I killed my beautiful, precious child. And he said, well, well,
it's just a lot of little things. I think he
really doesn't know.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
But because police didn't have enough evidence sources within the
investigation til forty eight hours, the police tried to psychologically
break the Ramsays, hoping one or both would confess.
Speaker 7 (07:57):
It was a strategy that was put in place to
bring immense pressure on us to break us.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
That strategy by some in the department, claims John Ramsey
included a relentless campaign of leaks, fed mostly to the
nation's tabloids, that had a devastating effect on public opinion.
Speaker 12 (08:17):
They convinced the public of guilt.
Speaker 6 (08:21):
Lynnwood is John and Patsy Ramsey's attorney.
Speaker 12 (08:23):
You couldn't go to buy groceries for your family without
passing headlines that said that John Ramsey had molested his
first daughter absolutely false. Headlines that John and Patsy Ramsey
were pornographers, absolutely false. Headlines that they were devil worshipers,
(08:46):
absolutely false.
Speaker 6 (08:49):
The Ramseys believe that the Boulder Police still to this day,
continued to ignore evidence, pointing to other suspects.
Speaker 7 (08:57):
It's frustrating, it's disappointing. It makes me angry.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
You say, it makes you angry, But you don't seem angry.
Do you think that's also hurts you in the eyes
of the public.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Well, we're not soap opera actors.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
I mean, I suppose if I was an actor, I
could act really angry, but I'm not. That's who I am.
It's what you see, and I'm angry. This is angry for.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
Me, angry because John Ramsey says a killer or killers
remain free.
Speaker 7 (09:28):
What I do know is that we didn't kill her daughter.
So let's look at the rest of the picture, guys.
Speaker 8 (09:35):
Next on forty eight Hours investigates.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
My life has been hell from that day.
Speaker 8 (09:42):
For the police interrogation of the Ramseys, you've never seen before.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Today's date. Today's day is June twenty third, nineteen.
Speaker 11 (10:02):
Ninety or June nineteen ninety eight at Broomfield police tournament.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Right at the time was approximately nine oh.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
Four, a year and a half after John Benet was murdered.
John and Patsy Ramsay, sitting in separate rooms at the
same time, were questioned by Boulder authorities in a Colorado
police station. These tapes have never before been seen publicly.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of
people that maybe you didn't know anything about the murder.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
Maybe passing questioning John is lou Smidt, a homicide detective
them working for the Boulder DA's office.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Nuts proposterous, we pass. He loves both her children dearly,
but frankly she and Jovanna were extremely close. A Christmas
warning photo of the kids.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
Detective Tom Payne question Patsy, who at the time was
taking medication for both anxiety and depression.
Speaker 13 (11:09):
If I told you right now that we have praise
evidence that appears to link you to the death of
John Benney.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
What would you tell me?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Tell you possible.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Gatory test? How is it impossible?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I did not kill my child. I didn't have a
thing to do with it.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
And I'm not.
Speaker 13 (11:42):
Talking you know, somebody's guests or some rumor or some
story out.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I don't care what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I'm talking about scientific effents.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I don't give a flying flip how scientificates. Go back
to the damn drawing board. I didn't do it. Didn't
do it, and we didn't have a clue of anybody
who didn't do it. So we all got to start
working together from here this day forward to try and
find out who, how did it? Forty eight hours.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Investigates has acquired these tapes, hours upon hours of footage
that take you inside the investigation. While the tapes show
how strongly prosecutors believe John and Patsy Ramsey were responsible
for the death of their daughter, Frankly, there isn't a
lot of physical evidence that links them, so questioners looked
(12:34):
for inconsistencies and focused on minute details from the crime scene.
Speaker 7 (12:40):
What have you heard about pinetto We were asked, you know,
to jump at any pineapple, and because apparently it was
found in your system.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I think part of the question was to what she
eated and she got home.
Speaker 7 (12:51):
I'm sure she didn't because she was absolutely sound asweep.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
The Ramseys told police that John Bene had gone straight
to bed that night and had not eaten a home
but autopsy results did find undigested pineapple in John Benet's stomach,
and police discovered fingerprints on a bowl of pineapple left
in the family's dining room on the morning of the murder.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I didn't put the ball there. Okay, I did not
put the ball there. I would not do this.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is it one day? But let's go back to your
line of reasoning here. If they were.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Now talk to me.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Look at it. If they're not yours, and they're not John's,
then they would be somebody else's, Okay, But now I'm
telling they're not somebody Elses. Those prince belonged to one
of the two.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You they didn't you?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I I do not put that there.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
The fingerprints on the bowl are Patsy's, according to police,
suggesting that she's the one who gave the fruit to
her daughter. But if Patsy did give it to John
Benet and is lying about it, the investigators wondered, could
she be lying about everything?
Speaker 14 (14:06):
You know, sometimes the simplest, most obscure little thing could
be so significant, right, I did not.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Be gentlemen iconic, Okay, So I don't know how I got.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
In your stomach.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And now where this qualifie apple came criminal? I can't
recall putting that there.
Speaker 6 (14:31):
After three days of questioning, the interrogation in nineteen ninety
eight ended, and even though the Ramseys were not indicted,
Bolder authorities continued to believe they were guilty, So in
August of two thousand, prosecutors flew to Atlanta, where the
Ramseys were living, asking to see and hear new evidence
(14:52):
forty eight hours has also acquired those tapes.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
If ever there were going to be an intruder on trial,
that defense is going.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
To be that you did it.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Remember that.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I remember that, But.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
I'm not here to prove my mcs from here. At
Pine Killing Madonna.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
With John, prosecutors asked questions mostly about leads he had
uncovered on other suspects, but with Patsy, interrogators were more accusatory,
suggesting they had new evidence clothing fibers that would tie
her directly to the murder.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
You were shown photographed wearing a red coat.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
It's kind of black and red and gray fleece.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Cut more like a blazer, though it's like a peacoat.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
Bruce Levin from the Boulder District Attorney's office led the questioning,
this is ramsay.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
I have scientific evidence from forensic scientists that say that
there's fibers in the paint tray that match.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Your red jacket.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
The paint tray is significant because a brush from it,
along with some rope, was used to strangle and sexually
abuse John Bennet.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
We believe that fibers from her jacket were found in
the paint tray. We're found tied into the ligature found
on John Benet's neck, We're found on the blanket that
she's wrapped in. We're found on the duct tape that's
found on her mouth. I have no evidence from any
scientists to suggest that those fibers are from any source
other than your red jacket.
Speaker 11 (16:18):
Well, but again that's come on me.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
What other sources?
Speaker 6 (16:21):
Did they test Patsy's attorney, Lynn Wood as prosecutors to
produce the evidence when they wouldn't. He refused to let
Patsy go on the record, but she did go on
the record with us. What do you think about these fibers?
Speaker 4 (16:36):
After John discovered the body and she was brought to
the living room, when I laid eyes on her, I
knelt down and hugged her, But I was had my
whole body on her body. My sweater fibers or whatever
(16:56):
I had on that morning are going to transfer to
her clothing.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
In all the questioning, the prosecutors focus more on Patsy
than John, following their belief that she was the killer.
Speaker 13 (17:09):
John Benney got up and somebody in that house legally
lovely in that house, one of the three of you
also happens to be up or gets up because she
makes no noise, and there's some discussion or something happens,
there's an accident, somebody.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Going down the wrong path, buddy.
Speaker 13 (17:34):
Okay, somebody accidentally, or if somebody gets up set over
bed waiting as one of the things that's been proposed, and.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I'm happy. If she got up in the night and
ran into somebody, it was somebody there that wasn't supposed.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
To be there.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I don't know what transpired after that, whether it was
an accident, intentional, premeditated, or what not. So it was
not one of her free family members that were also
in that house period.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
Any statement, These tapes don't always show the Ramseys at
their best, but remarkably it was the Ramseys who made
them available, saying they want all the information on this
case out in the open. As for the Boulder Police
and prosecutors, they denied repeated requests from forty eight hours
to discuss these tapes or any of the issues were
(18:29):
raising tonight. Their only comment on the Ramsey murder investigation
is no comment.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I mean, I appreciate being here. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
It's very hard to be here, but it is a
damn sign harder to be sitting at home in Atlanta, Georgia, wondering.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Every second and every day what you guys are doing
out here? You know, have you found anything? Are we
any closer? Is the guy out here watching my house?
You know it's so safe. My life has been hell
from that day.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
And I want nothing more than to find out who
it's responsible for that.
Speaker 8 (19:09):
You just saw this man interrogate the Ramseys as a detective.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I'm looking for clues.
Speaker 8 (19:14):
Wait until you hear what he has to say about
the case. Now.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They may not like what I say, but I'm going
to say it.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
One hundred miles away from where John Bene Ramsey was
murdered in a modest home in Colorado Springs, how often
do you think about this case?
Speaker 14 (19:38):
Now?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Probably every day.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
Sixty seven year old Lou Smitt works every day alone
trying to find her killer.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I keep a picture of her in my wallet.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
You have John Bennet, and.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
You want I keep it all the time.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yet, this is the same Lou Smit you saw interrogating
John Ramsey back in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Saying I've concentrated my investigation on you.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
A veteran detective. This was like the homicides that I
worked on, with such an impressive record for solving homicides
that the Boulder District Attorney hired him on the Ramsey
murder case.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I had to stick over the bold we please from
a little.
Speaker 6 (20:13):
Bit and when you started, who did you believe killed
John Bene Ramsey?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
My gut feeling was the parents did it.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
But as Smit followed the evidence and questioned the Ramseyes,
the more he became convinced that the Boulder police were
focusing on the wrong suspects.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
John Ramsey came through very, very sincere, so the first founder.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I was like the guy founder.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
When I left that interview, there was no doubt in
my mind that he had nothing to do with the
death of his daughter.
Speaker 6 (20:40):
Smith quit the investigation in disgust.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
They hired me as a detective to take a look
at this case. They may not like what I say,
but I'm going to say it. I don't think the
Ramseys did it, and I think they ought to us
start looking for people that did.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
How would you describe loose Smith?
Speaker 4 (20:55):
He's my hope in finding out who killed my daughter.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
As a detective, I'm looking for clues.
Speaker 6 (21:02):
What is it that convinces Lou Smith that someone other
than the Ramses kill their six year old daughter, first,
and foremost, the brutality of the crime. Nearly every medical
expert who has seen the autopsy report agrees on one thing.
This was not an accidental death. John Beney Ramsey was
cruelly and deliberately murdered. We need to warn you that
(21:25):
what you are about to see is very disturbing. What
we see here John Benet was strangled not once, says Smit,
but twice with this intricately made device known as a
garat that had to be made by the killer during
the murder.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
You see hair right inside the windings of that cord.
That's John Beney's hair.
Speaker 6 (21:47):
It's a device, as Smith, that was not left there
for show. Whoever killed John Bennet use the garat to
strangle her. Smit believed she was fighting for her life.
There were marks that look a lot like scratches on
her neck.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. I'm
pretty sure that's a scratch to get that off. I
think she was struggling.
Speaker 6 (22:08):
Then at some point the child was then hit over
the head with such force it crushed her skull, but
her nightmare wasn't over. Shortly before she died, investigators believed
she was sexually assaulted with a piece of the paintbrush
that was used to make the garage.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
There's no motive for the parent to do that.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
The evidence, says Smith, simply does not support the popular
theory that the Ramses struck their daughter and then try
to cover it up.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
It's not a mother waking up in the middle of
the night saying, Oops, I think I heard my child. Oops.
I got to bring her downstairs and fashion one of
these things. Then I'm going to put it around her
neck and I'm going to tighten it a couple times
while she's struggling. Now, if you want to believe that,
go ahead. I can't say this on the air, but
that's bull But.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
What about those fibers from Patsy Ramsey's jacket that police
say were in the paint and on the sticky side
of duct tape covering John Viney's mouth. Is the fact
that there were fibers that were consistent with Patsy Ramsey's
jacket incriminating, sure, But does that shake your faith that
the Ramseys were not involved?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
No, you just can't rely on fiber evidence, because fibers
could come off with a jacket or something similar to
the jacket.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
What's more, says Smit, there were also dozens of unidentified
fibers that didn't come from the Ramseys. And Smit is
unaware of a single case where a parent used a
garrote like this to kill a child.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
This is one of the best clues left behind by
the killer. This shows what's going on in his mind.
This is a sexual device. I'm looking for a pedophile
that's a sexual as status. That's what Luce Smith's looking for.
Speaker 6 (23:47):
Smith's not the only one.
Speaker 9 (23:49):
Well, there's fifty seven pages of names that have come
out of the tip files.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
And Colorado Private Detective Ollie Gray and his partner John
Santa Gustin were hired by the Ramseys two years ago.
That would be John Bennet's room right here on the
second level. Even when the Ramseys ran out of money,
Allie and John stayed on the job.
Speaker 9 (24:08):
We probably do something on it two or three.
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Times a week, even though you're not came paid. Sure
they became convinced of the ramseys innocence after seeing this
lab report.
Speaker 9 (24:19):
I acquired a document that you see right here that
names John and Patsy Ramsey as suspects was submitted for
analysis reference DNA.
Speaker 6 (24:30):
Just days after John Binay was murdered, her parents were
asked to give DNA samples to the Boulder police. The
two of you have given DNA evidence to the police.
Speaker 7 (24:39):
Absolutely, blood hair, DNA. We've given them everything they've asked for.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Their DNA was compared to foreign DNA found under their
daughter's fingernails and inner panties, which may have been left
by the killer. Does any of that DNA match anyone
in the Ramsey family.
Speaker 9 (24:58):
No, This analysis eliminated the Ramses.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested
us in a New York minute. And don't ever think
they wouldn't have.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
If not the Ramseyes, then who killed John Bennet?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
This is where I believe that the killer got in.
Speaker 6 (25:33):
Retired homicide detective Lou Smidt was still working on the
official investigation when he concluded that a stranger came into
the Ramsey.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Home, he opened the grate, he went in.
Speaker 6 (25:43):
And killed their six year old daughter.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
There's three windows there. The center one was the one
that was opened. Take a look real closely at the
window on the left what you're going to see is
leaves and debris pressed right up against the window. Now,
let's take a look at the one again in the center,
no leaves or debris, which says that window was open.
Directly below that open window, you have a suitcase. Directly
(26:08):
around that suitcase, you have leaves and debris from that
window well around that suitcase. Also see, if you look
very closely, you're going to see a mark that goes
right down the.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
Wall right here, a scuff mark that Smith believes was
left by someone either climbing in or climbing out. You
can fit through that window without any problem. In fact,
he has, as you can see in this video shot
as part of Smith's investigation.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
It is much easier to go out that window if
you stand on something, you put the suitcase in front,
You step on a suitcase, and you're right out into
the window. Will lift the grade, You're gone. It's that easy.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
But why would an intruder who intended to kill John
Benay leave the bizarre two and a half page ransom
note written with paper and a pen belonging to Patsy Voulder.
Police have always believed that Patsy used it to make
the killing look like a kidnapping. But if someone had
been targeting John Bonny Ramsey, wouldn't he least bring the
(27:08):
paper and the pencil to write this ransom note?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I mean, well, if you want to look at it
from a sophisticated criminal's mind, they probably wouldn't bring it in.
Why would you bring in something that can be traced
back to your house where you have actual the pen
and the ink, and you have the paper right there
that it was written on.
Speaker 6 (27:27):
But you can't count on finding that in the house.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Can't count on it. Most houses have that.
Speaker 6 (27:32):
No expert could eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the writer of
the ransom note. That's damning, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
No, not at all. You always are going to have
similarities in handwriting to sit down and write a note
like that with all of those details in there after
you brutally killed your daughter. You'd never done that before.
Come on, give me a break.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
But more than any other evidence, Smid believed small marks
left on John Benny's face and back prove an intruder
killed her.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the
killer had a stun gun.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
A stun gun an electrical weapon used to incapacitate the
little girl in order to move her to the basement.
Smith believes only an intruder would need to use one.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
There's no reason at all for the parents to have
used a stun gun to help stage the murder of
their daughter.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Was there any indication that the Ramses had ever under
stun gun?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
There is nothing to indicate the Ramsies ever uned a
stun gun.
Speaker 6 (28:29):
What's significant about these injuries, says Smith, is that those
on the child's face and those on her back appear
to be an equal distance apart.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Is it approximately three point five.
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Centimeters much like the prongs of this stun gun?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
And there are approximately three point five centimeters apart.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
And if I push this, doctor Michael Doberson.
Speaker 5 (28:49):
You can see the electricity arcing.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
The coroner for Neighboring a Rapahoe County also believes the
marks on John Benney were left by a stun gun.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
If it's not a stun gun, I'd like to know
what it is.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
Three other pathologists agreed, but the Boulder police are relying
instead on this man's opinion. How sure are you that
it's not a stun gun?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Well, I'm one.
Speaker 14 (29:12):
Hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way.
Speaker 6 (29:15):
Doctor Werner Spitz, a nationally known forensic pathologist who has
worked on major cases, including the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
Speaker 14 (29:23):
A stun gun injury is an electrical.
Speaker 8 (29:27):
Burn, is a burn essentially, indeed, don't look like burns.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Unfortunately, with only photographs to go by, no expert, not
doctor Spitz nor doctor Doberson, can be one hundred percent sure.
Wouldn't that have been the best way to know or
come The closest to knowing is if you could have
exhumed the body and line up a sun gun and
see if it matches those interests.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Sure, I believe that that would have probably been the
most accurate way to do it.
Speaker 6 (29:55):
Loo Smidt admits that in the months following John Benay's
death in investigators consider going to court to have her
body exhumed, but decided against it.
Speaker 7 (30:05):
We had buried our child, she was at peace. That
was just an abhorrent thought.
Speaker 6 (30:11):
But John, that might have been the one way to
know for sure that could have resolved the whole issue,
because if a stun gum was used, it was not
the parents.
Speaker 7 (30:20):
Certainly, And we've got people that have told us that
know what they're doing, that with ninety five percent medical
certainty that a stun gun was used, no question.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
But you would have known with one hundred percent certainty
if you had exhumed the body as tough as that.
Speaker 7 (30:32):
What I'd be a child you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
It's not a body. It's different.
Speaker 6 (30:36):
Still, Smith believes a stun gun is the key to
John Benet's murder, and he's searching for a killer or
killers who own one, the.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Person who did this. If we're right, he's still out there.
Speaker 15 (30:49):
What do you make of the intruder theory? See more
of the evidence at forty eight hours dot com.
Speaker 6 (31:06):
On the cold December night that marked the one year
anniversary of John benese murder, dozens of mourners showed up
for a candlelight vigil outside the Ramsey home. One man
in particular caught investigator loose Smith's eye.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Many times kriminals do return to the scene, and that
was on the anniversary that puts him right there at
the Ramsey house. A year later.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
He's Gary Oleva, a thirty eight year old convicted sex
offender from Oregon who lives in Boulder.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
He definitely is a sex offender for assaulting another seven
year old girl in Oregon. They spent time in prison
for that.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Smidt is convinced that a pedophile came into the Ramsey
home and killed their daughter.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
On my computer, I probably got twenty five good leads
and I probably have another fifty pages of other leads
to follow.
Speaker 6 (32:04):
Among the files he's keeping on sex offenders in Boulder,
Gary Oliva's name stands out. In nineteen ninety one, the
year after he sexually assaulted the little girl, police reports
say he tried to strangle his mother with a telephone cord,
and in December nineteen ninety six, Oliva may have been
(32:25):
only a few houses away from John Bonnat's bedroom window.
Speaker 9 (32:29):
This is the alley ally that runs behind the Ramsey's
home leads into the backyard to the garage area.
Speaker 11 (32:35):
It wasn't uncommon for John Benin and Burke to ride
their bicycles around the alleyway.
Speaker 6 (32:40):
John Santagustain and Olie Gray, the Ramsey's private investigators, say
Oliva frequented these buildings owned by a local church.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
Well.
Speaker 9 (32:48):
A lot of transit people come here for food and
also to.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Pick up their mail.
Speaker 6 (32:53):
But why is this relevant?
Speaker 9 (32:55):
The Ramsey home is what ten houses right up.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
The sound of What did the Bolder police do with this? Nothing?
According to Lou Smith, the police didn't follow up on
ninety five percent of the more than three thousand phone
tips that came in in Oliva's case. They didn't investigate
him until nearly four years after John Bone Ramsey's death,
when he was caught with drugs and guess what else,
(33:22):
a stun gun. Did you ever use that sun gun
on a child?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
No?
Speaker 6 (33:27):
Oliva, who has wanted an Oregon for parole violations, turned
himself into the Bolder police two weeks ago. Did you
hurt or kill John Boney Ramsey?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
No? No, I didn't.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
Didn't you tell your friend that you were attracted to
little girls?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I don't think I want to answer that.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
You were living in Boulder at the time John Benet
was killed.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, just down the street.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
What he will admit to is an obsession with John Bennet.
Speaker 16 (33:58):
I believe that she came to me after she was
killed and revealed.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Herself to me.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
As it turns out, we're not the only ones interested
in Oliva. A Bolder police officer showed up to take notes.
Speaker 16 (34:12):
They would be concerned if any lead was not fully
taken to ground.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
Former Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter says police tried to
follow up on pedophiles, but admits that early on the
force was clearly overwhelmed. Didn't your office have to tell
police officers you got to look at these other leads.
You can't just focus on the rims.
Speaker 16 (34:35):
Well, it was said, probably not in quite that language,
but yes, can I consider it?
Speaker 6 (34:40):
Why didn't authorities take a sex offender like Oliva more seriously?
Just this week Boulder police said Oliva is not a suspect.
Sources say his DNA doesn't match evidence at the.
Speaker 7 (34:53):
Scene, nor does ours.
Speaker 6 (34:56):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 4 (34:58):
I think it's a devil stand, don't you?
Speaker 6 (35:03):
Is it fair to say then that the state of
the evidence right now there just isn't enough to convict
the Ramseys beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 16 (35:10):
There isn't enough to convict anybody beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 6 (35:14):
But Alex Hunter believes this case someday can be solved,
although he doesn't think Lou Smitt is the man to
do it. Do you feel that Lou Smith's feelings for
the Ramseys clouded his judgment?
Speaker 9 (35:26):
I think a little bit.
Speaker 6 (35:29):
Hunter believes Smit, a devout Christian, crossed the line. When
working as a DA investigator, He prayed with the Ramseyes.
Do you think maybe you've gotten too close to Ramseys?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Well, let's put it this way. I don't think I did.
If the Ramses did this and I found out, I'd
be first one standing in line at the Boulder Police Department.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
John Bene Ramsey would have been twelve years old this
year and in sixth grade. Instead, she's buried in a
Georgia cemetery while her brutal killer or killers go free.
Next a new interview with John Ramsey. Remarkably, not much
(36:18):
has changed since that two thousand and two program. The
cases at a standstill, but with a passage of so
much time comes a loss of some key figures, most
notably Patsy Ramsey, who died of cancer in two thousand
and six. She was forty nine. John Ramsey remarried five
(36:42):
years later. I think back about Patsy and I remember
Patsy saying that your lives could not go on until
the killer was found. How much weight was that on
Patsy before she died.
Speaker 7 (36:56):
Patsy was a very strong woman. She really was very
kind person, a wonderful mother. She got pretty vilified in
the media, which was horribly unfair. I think hurt deeper
than it showed.
Speaker 6 (37:12):
Investigator lou Smid worked on the case almost until the
day he died in August twenty ten. His family continues
to pursue leads. John, do you believe this case could
be solved?
Speaker 7 (37:28):
Yes, I do if the police will take advantage of
all the technology that's available to them, and that's going
to one or two of the world's cutting edge labs
for DNA testing, And I think if they do that,
and if for successful getting a sample in the right
format and then do the genealogy research, I'm eighty percent
(37:50):
confident it could be solved.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
But you got to do it.
Speaker 6 (37:52):
In November twenty twenty four, the Bolder Police Department released
a statement which said the assertion that there is viable
evidence and leads we are not pursuing to include DNA
testing is completely false. The department said there is an
ongoing investigation and they're looking into the recommendations made by
(38:16):
a recent cold case review team. Police Chief Stephen Redfern.
Speaker 17 (38:21):
We have thoroughly investigated multiple people identified as suspects throughout
the years, and we continue to be open minded about
what occurred as we investigate the tips that come into detectives.
Speaker 6 (38:35):
John Ramsey remains hopeful that these new efforts may finally
reveal the killer, a killer he believes was already waiting
in their house when the family came home from dinner
that Christmas night.
Speaker 7 (38:49):
We were casual with our security in our home in
a Boulder. We thought it was a safe place, and
we got casual and complacent.
Speaker 6 (38:58):
When you look back, are there any thing you wish
you had done differently?
Speaker 7 (39:02):
The little beauty pageants they participated in, and I wouldn't
have done that.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
You need to keep your children private.
Speaker 7 (39:12):
It was conflict for me because Passie, dis recovered from
stage four or varying cancer, was grateful to have some
life ahead.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Of her.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
In remission. Did how long to spend with her children
and to raise their children? I think she tried to
pack a lot of mother daughter time in that period
of time that she knew she had ahead of her.
Speaker 6 (39:33):
Do you ever dream about John today or wonder what
she would have been like now?
Speaker 7 (39:38):
Well, I've dream I occasionally have dreams, and they're really
wonderful dreams, But I don't try to imagine what she
would have been. She was in my life for six years,
and my little girl, and that's how I remember.
Speaker 10 (40:10):
As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one
horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was
called Candy Man. But did you know that the movie
Candy Man was partly inspired by an actual murder. Listen
to Candy Man, The true story behind the Bathroom Mirror
Murder wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6 (40:25):
I'm Aaron Moriarty of forty eight Hours, and of all
the cases I've covered, this is the one that troubles
me most. Listen to Murder and the Orange Grove, the
trouble case against Crosley Green, Wherever you get your podcasts.
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The man?
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Sorry, please plain to me?
Speaker 4 (00:17):
What's going on?
Speaker 5 (00:17):
Okay?
Speaker 4 (00:18):
The western.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
A note again? How old is your daughter?
Speaker 6 (00:27):
She is forever frozen in time. John Benet Ramsay six
years old, dress for a beauty pageant and we still
don't know who killed her. The day after Christmas in
(00:47):
nineteen ninety six, John Bennet was reported missing with a
rambling ransom note left at the scene. Several hours later,
she was found dead in her own home, bludgeoned and strangled.
It was a media sensation. Suspicion fell on her parents,
John and Patsy Ramsey. The couple was never charged, but
(01:10):
early on there was a police theory that Patsy Ramsey
may have killed her daughter in a fit of rage
over bed wedding and then covered it up. Now in
his eighties, John Ramsey is still trying to clear his
and Patsy's names.
Speaker 7 (01:26):
Finding the killer isn't going to change my life at
this point, but it will change the lives of my
children and my grandchildren. This cloud needs to be removed
from our family's head, and this chapter closed for their benefit.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
So there is an answer.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
I'll have more from that interview later, but first, a
time capsule. A look back at how forty eight Hours
covered the story in two thousand and two.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested
us in a New York minute.
Speaker 8 (02:12):
Take a look at this.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I did not kill my child.
Speaker 8 (02:15):
Forty eight Hours Investigates has obtained the police interrogation tapes
of John and Patsy Ramsey, never made public until tonight.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I don't give a flying flip how clientific it is.
Go back to the damn drawing board.
Speaker 8 (02:30):
Aaron Moriarty heads up our six month investigation.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
I don't think the Ramseys did it, and I think
they ought to start looking for people that did.
Speaker 8 (02:37):
Forty eight hours Investigates searching for a killer.
Speaker 7 (02:45):
She was the sparkplug of our family because of this
zest that she had. She just kept things alive and popping.
It's not the same without her.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Why is it so hard for people to understand that
we love this child with everything in our being. We
would never touch a hair on the head of one
of our children. I mean, it just is inconceivable to me.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Their faces are instantly recognizable, but John and Patsy Ramsay
are famous in a way no one would want. Although
they've never been publicly called suspects or charged with a
nineteen ninety six death of their daughter John Bennet. They
are resigned to a painful reality.
Speaker 7 (03:41):
We could find the killer tomorrow, he could be arrested, convicted,
and jailed, and there'd still be twenty percent of the
population would think that we had something to do with it.
Speaker 6 (03:52):
Did your daughter have a bed wedding incident that night?
Did you get up? Did you get angry? And did
you hurt her?
Speaker 9 (03:59):
No?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I did not.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
What is your reaction when you know many people think
that's what you did?
Speaker 4 (04:06):
They are wrong. I don't know what else to say.
How else do you say no? Except no? No means no?
Come on?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Come on.
Speaker 6 (04:19):
Over the last several months, we have spent a great
deal of time with the Ramseys, these favorite villains of
the tabloids.
Speaker 10 (04:26):
The big old tires make the smartest turn.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
And I've seen them in a way few others have.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
Fishing box that hadn't been used for a long time.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
On this day, just this past summer, John and Patsy
Ramsey are moving.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Life has never been the same, and it has basically
ruined us financially and emotionally and everything else. So we're standing.
This is my wedding dress.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
They are selling their million dollar home in Atlanta and
moving to a smaller townhouse just down the road. John Ramsey,
once ahead of a billion dollar software company, hasn't worked
for four years, while Patsy has been quite literally fighting
for her life.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
This is my self portrait. Here's my broken heart.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
Volunteers in a rare, unguarded moment.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I thought I would paint during my cancer treatment, but
I was just so sick.
Speaker 6 (05:33):
I couldn't without her makeup, without her wig, without even
her eyebrows. Drawn in you can clearly see the damage
left by the return of her cancer. How did you
find out?
Speaker 4 (05:45):
I was back?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
In February?
Speaker 4 (05:47):
From my annual checkup.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Nine years ago, Patsy learned she had stage four ovarian cancer.
She made what she hoped was a full recovery, but
earlier this year she again went through debilitating chemotherapy. You
lost your.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Hair, Yeah it's going back, My eyebrows are going back.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It all comes out.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
But you know what, that's very little thing to worry about.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
In fact, Patsy Ramsey has much bigger concerns. Almost from
the moment, the body of their six year old daughter
John Bennet was discovered. Bolder police believed John and Patsy
killed their daughter and then staged a kidnapping, complete with
a rambling two and a half page ransom note to
cover it up.
Speaker 7 (06:35):
They've never investigated this case other than to investigate the family.
They have never investigated this case.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
Police say they haven't ruled out other theories. To this day,
the Ramseys remain the prime suspects. As you will see
in this videotape obtained exclusively by forty eight hours, you.
Speaker 11 (06:55):
Have not classified any individual as a suspect publicly correct.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
Well, testifying under oath in a civil case. Just last November,
Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner admitted what he had never
before said publicly.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Internally, John and Patsy are considered suspects.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Both of them.
Speaker 11 (07:14):
Yes, are considered to have probably been involved in the
death of their daughter probability.
Speaker 6 (07:20):
Yes, Why do you think you remained probably the prime
suspect in the eyes of the Bolder police.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I asked Mark Beckner that I came closer to him
in the face than I am to you, Aaron, And
I said, tell me what it is that makes you
think I killed my beautiful, precious child. And he said, well, well,
it's just a lot of little things. I think he
really doesn't know.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
But because police didn't have enough evidence sources within the
investigation til forty eight hours, the police tried to psychologically
break the Ramsays, hoping one or both would confess.
Speaker 7 (07:57):
It was a strategy that was put in place to
bring immense pressure on us to break us.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
That strategy by some in the department, claims John Ramsey
included a relentless campaign of leaks, fed mostly to the
nation's tabloids, that had a devastating effect on public opinion.
Speaker 12 (08:17):
They convinced the public of guilt.
Speaker 6 (08:21):
Lynnwood is John and Patsy Ramsey's attorney.
Speaker 12 (08:23):
You couldn't go to buy groceries for your family without
passing headlines that said that John Ramsey had molested his
first daughter absolutely false. Headlines that John and Patsy Ramsey
were pornographers, absolutely false. Headlines that they were devil worshipers,
(08:46):
absolutely false.
Speaker 6 (08:49):
The Ramseys believe that the Boulder Police still to this day,
continued to ignore evidence, pointing to other suspects.
Speaker 7 (08:57):
It's frustrating, it's disappointing. It makes me angry.
Speaker 6 (09:01):
You say, it makes you angry, But you don't seem angry.
Do you think that's also hurts you in the eyes
of the public.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Well, we're not soap opera actors.
Speaker 7 (09:10):
I mean, I suppose if I was an actor, I
could act really angry, but I'm not. That's who I am.
It's what you see, and I'm angry. This is angry for.
Speaker 6 (09:21):
Me, angry because John Ramsey says a killer or killers
remain free.
Speaker 7 (09:28):
What I do know is that we didn't kill her daughter.
So let's look at the rest of the picture, guys.
Speaker 8 (09:35):
Next on forty eight Hours investigates.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
My life has been hell from that day.
Speaker 8 (09:42):
For the police interrogation of the Ramseys, you've never seen before.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Today's date. Today's day is June twenty third, nineteen.
Speaker 11 (10:02):
Ninety or June nineteen ninety eight at Broomfield police tournament.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Right at the time was approximately nine oh.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
Four, a year and a half after John Benet was murdered.
John and Patsy Ramsay, sitting in separate rooms at the
same time, were questioned by Boulder authorities in a Colorado
police station. These tapes have never before been seen publicly.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of
people that maybe you didn't know anything about the murder.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
Maybe passing questioning John is lou Smidt, a homicide detective
them working for the Boulder DA's office.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Nuts proposterous, we pass. He loves both her children dearly,
but frankly she and Jovanna were extremely close. A Christmas
warning photo of the kids.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
Detective Tom Payne question Patsy, who at the time was
taking medication for both anxiety and depression.
Speaker 13 (11:09):
If I told you right now that we have praise
evidence that appears to link you to the death of
John Benney.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
What would you tell me?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Tell you possible.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Gatory test? How is it impossible?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I did not kill my child. I didn't have a
thing to do with it.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
And I'm not.
Speaker 13 (11:42):
Talking you know, somebody's guests or some rumor or some
story out.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I don't care what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I'm talking about scientific effents.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
I don't give a flying flip how scientificates. Go back
to the damn drawing board. I didn't do it. Didn't
do it, and we didn't have a clue of anybody
who didn't do it. So we all got to start
working together from here this day forward to try and
find out who, how did it? Forty eight hours.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
Investigates has acquired these tapes, hours upon hours of footage
that take you inside the investigation. While the tapes show
how strongly prosecutors believe John and Patsy Ramsey were responsible
for the death of their daughter, Frankly, there isn't a
lot of physical evidence that links them, so questioners looked
(12:34):
for inconsistencies and focused on minute details from the crime scene.
Speaker 7 (12:40):
What have you heard about pinetto We were asked, you know,
to jump at any pineapple, and because apparently it was
found in your system.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I think part of the question was to what she
eated and she got home.
Speaker 7 (12:51):
I'm sure she didn't because she was absolutely sound asweep.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
The Ramseys told police that John Bene had gone straight
to bed that night and had not eaten a home
but autopsy results did find undigested pineapple in John Benet's stomach,
and police discovered fingerprints on a bowl of pineapple left
in the family's dining room on the morning of the murder.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
I didn't put the ball there. Okay, I did not
put the ball there. I would not do this.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is it one day? But let's go back to your
line of reasoning here. If they were.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Now talk to me.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Look at it. If they're not yours, and they're not John's,
then they would be somebody else's, Okay, But now I'm
telling they're not somebody Elses. Those prince belonged to one
of the two.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You they didn't you?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
I I do not put that there.
Speaker 6 (13:49):
The fingerprints on the bowl are Patsy's, according to police,
suggesting that she's the one who gave the fruit to
her daughter. But if Patsy did give it to John
Benet and is lying about it, the investigators wondered, could
she be lying about everything?
Speaker 14 (14:06):
You know, sometimes the simplest, most obscure little thing could
be so significant, right, I did not.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Be gentlemen iconic, Okay, So I don't know how I got.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
In your stomach.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And now where this qualifie apple came criminal? I can't
recall putting that there.
Speaker 6 (14:31):
After three days of questioning, the interrogation in nineteen ninety
eight ended, and even though the Ramseys were not indicted,
Bolder authorities continued to believe they were guilty, So in
August of two thousand, prosecutors flew to Atlanta, where the
Ramseys were living, asking to see and hear new evidence
(14:52):
forty eight hours has also acquired those tapes.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
If ever there were going to be an intruder on trial,
that defense is going.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
To be that you did it.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Remember that.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I remember that, But.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
I'm not here to prove my mcs from here. At
Pine Killing Madonna.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
With John, prosecutors asked questions mostly about leads he had
uncovered on other suspects, but with Patsy, interrogators were more accusatory,
suggesting they had new evidence clothing fibers that would tie
her directly to the murder.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
You were shown photographed wearing a red coat.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
It's kind of black and red and gray fleece.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Cut more like a blazer, though it's like a peacoat.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
Bruce Levin from the Boulder District Attorney's office led the questioning,
this is ramsay.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
I have scientific evidence from forensic scientists that say that
there's fibers in the paint tray that match.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Your red jacket.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
The paint tray is significant because a brush from it,
along with some rope, was used to strangle and sexually
abuse John Bennet.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
We believe that fibers from her jacket were found in
the paint tray. We're found tied into the ligature found
on John Benet's neck, We're found on the blanket that
she's wrapped in. We're found on the duct tape that's
found on her mouth. I have no evidence from any
scientists to suggest that those fibers are from any source
other than your red jacket.
Speaker 11 (16:18):
Well, but again that's come on me.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
What other sources?
Speaker 6 (16:21):
Did they test Patsy's attorney, Lynn Wood as prosecutors to
produce the evidence when they wouldn't. He refused to let
Patsy go on the record, but she did go on
the record with us. What do you think about these fibers?
Speaker 4 (16:36):
After John discovered the body and she was brought to
the living room, when I laid eyes on her, I
knelt down and hugged her, But I was had my
whole body on her body. My sweater fibers or whatever
(16:56):
I had on that morning are going to transfer to
her clothing.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
In all the questioning, the prosecutors focus more on Patsy
than John, following their belief that she was the killer.
Speaker 13 (17:09):
John Benney got up and somebody in that house legally
lovely in that house, one of the three of you
also happens to be up or gets up because she
makes no noise, and there's some discussion or something happens,
there's an accident, somebody.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Going down the wrong path, buddy.
Speaker 13 (17:34):
Okay, somebody accidentally, or if somebody gets up set over
bed waiting as one of the things that's been proposed, and.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I'm happy. If she got up in the night and
ran into somebody, it was somebody there that wasn't supposed.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
To be there.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
I don't know what transpired after that, whether it was
an accident, intentional, premeditated, or what not. So it was
not one of her free family members that were also
in that house period.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
Any statement, These tapes don't always show the Ramseys at
their best, but remarkably it was the Ramseys who made
them available, saying they want all the information on this
case out in the open. As for the Boulder Police
and prosecutors, they denied repeated requests from forty eight hours
to discuss these tapes or any of the issues were
(18:29):
raising tonight. Their only comment on the Ramsey murder investigation
is no comment.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I mean, I appreciate being here. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
It's very hard to be here, but it is a
damn sign harder to be sitting at home in Atlanta, Georgia, wondering.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Every second and every day what you guys are doing
out here? You know, have you found anything? Are we
any closer? Is the guy out here watching my house?
You know it's so safe. My life has been hell
from that day.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
And I want nothing more than to find out who
it's responsible for that.
Speaker 8 (19:09):
You just saw this man interrogate the Ramseys as a detective.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I'm looking for clues.
Speaker 8 (19:14):
Wait until you hear what he has to say about
the case. Now.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
They may not like what I say, but I'm going
to say it.
Speaker 6 (19:29):
One hundred miles away from where John Bene Ramsey was
murdered in a modest home in Colorado Springs, how often
do you think about this case?
Speaker 14 (19:38):
Now?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Probably every day.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
Sixty seven year old Lou Smitt works every day alone
trying to find her killer.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
I keep a picture of her in my wallet.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
You have John Bennet, and.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
You want I keep it all the time.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yet, this is the same Lou Smit you saw interrogating
John Ramsey back in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Saying I've concentrated my investigation on you.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
A veteran detective. This was like the homicides that I
worked on, with such an impressive record for solving homicides
that the Boulder District Attorney hired him on the Ramsey
murder case.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I had to stick over the bold we please from
a little.
Speaker 6 (20:13):
Bit and when you started, who did you believe killed
John Bene Ramsey?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
My gut feeling was the parents did it.
Speaker 6 (20:19):
But as Smit followed the evidence and questioned the Ramseyes,
the more he became convinced that the Boulder police were
focusing on the wrong suspects.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
John Ramsey came through very, very sincere, so the first founder.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I was like the guy founder.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
When I left that interview, there was no doubt in
my mind that he had nothing to do with the
death of his daughter.
Speaker 6 (20:40):
Smith quit the investigation in disgust.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
They hired me as a detective to take a look
at this case. They may not like what I say,
but I'm going to say it. I don't think the
Ramseys did it, and I think they ought to us
start looking for people that did.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
How would you describe loose Smith?
Speaker 4 (20:55):
He's my hope in finding out who killed my daughter.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
As a detective, I'm looking for clues.
Speaker 6 (21:02):
What is it that convinces Lou Smith that someone other
than the Ramses kill their six year old daughter, first,
and foremost, the brutality of the crime. Nearly every medical
expert who has seen the autopsy report agrees on one thing.
This was not an accidental death. John Beney Ramsey was
cruelly and deliberately murdered. We need to warn you that
(21:25):
what you are about to see is very disturbing. What
we see here John Benet was strangled not once, says Smit,
but twice with this intricately made device known as a
garat that had to be made by the killer during
the murder.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
You see hair right inside the windings of that cord.
That's John Beney's hair.
Speaker 6 (21:47):
It's a device, as Smith, that was not left there
for show. Whoever killed John Bennet use the garat to
strangle her. Smit believed she was fighting for her life.
There were marks that look a lot like scratches on
her neck.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
She did have her own DNA under her fingernails. I'm
pretty sure that's a scratch to get that off. I
think she was struggling.
Speaker 6 (22:08):
Then at some point the child was then hit over
the head with such force it crushed her skull, but
her nightmare wasn't over. Shortly before she died, investigators believed
she was sexually assaulted with a piece of the paintbrush
that was used to make the garage.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
There's no motive for the parent to do that.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
The evidence, says Smith, simply does not support the popular
theory that the Ramses struck their daughter and then try
to cover it up.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
It's not a mother waking up in the middle of
the night saying, Oops, I think I heard my child. Oops.
I got to bring her downstairs and fashion one of
these things. Then I'm going to put it around her
neck and I'm going to tighten it a couple times
while she's struggling. Now, if you want to believe that,
go ahead. I can't say this on the air, but
that's bull But.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
What about those fibers from Patsy Ramsey's jacket that police
say were in the paint and on the sticky side
of duct tape covering John Viney's mouth. Is the fact
that there were fibers that were consistent with Patsy Ramsey's
jacket incriminating, sure, But does that shake your faith that
the Ramseys were not involved?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
No, you just can't rely on fiber evidence, because fibers
could come off with a jacket or something similar to
the jacket.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
What's more, says Smit, there were also dozens of unidentified
fibers that didn't come from the Ramseys. And Smit is
unaware of a single case where a parent used a
garrote like this to kill a child.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
This is one of the best clues left behind by
the killer. This shows what's going on in his mind.
This is a sexual device. I'm looking for a pedophile
that's a sexual as status. That's what Luce Smith's looking for.
Speaker 6 (23:47):
Smith's not the only one.
Speaker 9 (23:49):
Well, there's fifty seven pages of names that have come
out of the tip files.
Speaker 6 (23:53):
And Colorado Private Detective Ollie Gray and his partner John
Santa Gustin were hired by the Ramseys two years ago.
That would be John Bennet's room right here on the
second level. Even when the Ramseys ran out of money,
Allie and John stayed on the job.
Speaker 9 (24:08):
We probably do something on it two or three.
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Times a week, even though you're not came paid. Sure
they became convinced of the ramseys innocence after seeing this
lab report.
Speaker 9 (24:19):
I acquired a document that you see right here that
names John and Patsy Ramsey as suspects was submitted for
analysis reference DNA.
Speaker 6 (24:30):
Just days after John Binay was murdered, her parents were
asked to give DNA samples to the Boulder police. The
two of you have given DNA evidence to the police.
Speaker 7 (24:39):
Absolutely, blood hair, DNA. We've given them everything they've asked for.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
Their DNA was compared to foreign DNA found under their
daughter's fingernails and inner panties, which may have been left
by the killer. Does any of that DNA match anyone
in the Ramsey family.
Speaker 9 (24:58):
No, This analysis eliminated the Ramses.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
If our DNA matched anything significant, they would have arrested
us in a New York minute. And don't ever think
they wouldn't have.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
If not the Ramseyes, then who killed John Bennet?
Speaker 3 (25:30):
This is where I believe that the killer got in.
Speaker 6 (25:33):
Retired homicide detective Lou Smidt was still working on the
official investigation when he concluded that a stranger came into
the Ramsey.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Home, he opened the grate, he went in.
Speaker 6 (25:43):
And killed their six year old daughter.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
There's three windows there. The center one was the one
that was opened. Take a look real closely at the
window on the left what you're going to see is
leaves and debris pressed right up against the window. Now,
let's take a look at the one again in the center,
no leaves or debris, which says that window was open.
Directly below that open window, you have a suitcase. Directly
(26:08):
around that suitcase, you have leaves and debris from that
window well around that suitcase. Also see, if you look
very closely, you're going to see a mark that goes
right down the.
Speaker 6 (26:17):
Wall right here, a scuff mark that Smith believes was
left by someone either climbing in or climbing out. You
can fit through that window without any problem. In fact,
he has, as you can see in this video shot
as part of Smith's investigation.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
It is much easier to go out that window if
you stand on something, you put the suitcase in front,
You step on a suitcase, and you're right out into
the window. Will lift the grade, You're gone. It's that easy.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
But why would an intruder who intended to kill John
Benay leave the bizarre two and a half page ransom
note written with paper and a pen belonging to Patsy Voulder.
Police have always believed that Patsy used it to make
the killing look like a kidnapping. But if someone had
been targeting John Bonny Ramsey, wouldn't he least bring the
(27:08):
paper and the pencil to write this ransom note?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I mean, well, if you want to look at it
from a sophisticated criminal's mind, they probably wouldn't bring it in.
Why would you bring in something that can be traced
back to your house where you have actual the pen
and the ink, and you have the paper right there
that it was written on.
Speaker 6 (27:27):
But you can't count on finding that in the house.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Can't count on it. Most houses have that.
Speaker 6 (27:32):
No expert could eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the writer of
the ransom note. That's damning, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
No, not at all. You always are going to have
similarities in handwriting to sit down and write a note
like that with all of those details in there after
you brutally killed your daughter. You'd never done that before.
Come on, give me a break.
Speaker 6 (27:51):
But more than any other evidence, Smid believed small marks
left on John Benny's face and back prove an intruder
killed her.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the
killer had a stun gun.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
A stun gun an electrical weapon used to incapacitate the
little girl in order to move her to the basement.
Smith believes only an intruder would need to use one.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
There's no reason at all for the parents to have
used a stun gun to help stage the murder of
their daughter.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Was there any indication that the Ramses had ever under
stun gun?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
There is nothing to indicate the Ramsies ever uned a
stun gun.
Speaker 6 (28:29):
What's significant about these injuries, says Smith, is that those
on the child's face and those on her back appear
to be an equal distance apart.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Is it approximately three point five.
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Centimeters much like the prongs of this stun gun?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
And there are approximately three point five centimeters apart.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
And if I push this, doctor Michael Doberson.
Speaker 5 (28:49):
You can see the electricity arcing.
Speaker 6 (28:53):
The coroner for Neighboring a Rapahoe County also believes the
marks on John Benney were left by a stun gun.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
If it's not a stun gun, I'd like to know
what it is.
Speaker 6 (29:03):
Three other pathologists agreed, but the Boulder police are relying
instead on this man's opinion. How sure are you that
it's not a stun gun?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Well, I'm one.
Speaker 14 (29:12):
Hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way.
Speaker 6 (29:15):
Doctor Werner Spitz, a nationally known forensic pathologist who has
worked on major cases, including the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
Speaker 14 (29:23):
A stun gun injury is an electrical.
Speaker 8 (29:27):
Burn, is a burn essentially, indeed, don't look like burns.
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Unfortunately, with only photographs to go by, no expert, not
doctor Spitz nor doctor Doberson, can be one hundred percent sure.
Wouldn't that have been the best way to know or
come The closest to knowing is if you could have
exhumed the body and line up a sun gun and
see if it matches those interests.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Sure, I believe that that would have probably been the
most accurate way to do it.
Speaker 6 (29:55):
Loo Smidt admits that in the months following John Benay's
death in investigators consider going to court to have her
body exhumed, but decided against it.
Speaker 7 (30:05):
We had buried our child, she was at peace. That
was just an abhorrent thought.
Speaker 6 (30:11):
But John, that might have been the one way to
know for sure that could have resolved the whole issue,
because if a stun gum was used, it was not
the parents.
Speaker 7 (30:20):
Certainly, And we've got people that have told us that
know what they're doing, that with ninety five percent medical
certainty that a stun gun was used, no question.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
But you would have known with one hundred percent certainty
if you had exhumed the body as tough as that.
Speaker 7 (30:32):
What I'd be a child you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
It's not a body. It's different.
Speaker 6 (30:36):
Still, Smith believes a stun gun is the key to
John Benet's murder, and he's searching for a killer or
killers who own one, the.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Person who did this. If we're right, he's still out there.
Speaker 15 (30:49):
What do you make of the intruder theory? See more
of the evidence at forty eight hours dot com.
Speaker 6 (31:06):
On the cold December night that marked the one year
anniversary of John benese murder, dozens of mourners showed up
for a candlelight vigil outside the Ramsey home. One man
in particular caught investigator loose Smith's eye.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Many times kriminals do return to the scene, and that
was on the anniversary that puts him right there at
the Ramsey house. A year later.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
He's Gary Oleva, a thirty eight year old convicted sex
offender from Oregon who lives in Boulder.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
He definitely is a sex offender for assaulting another seven
year old girl in Oregon. They spent time in prison
for that.
Speaker 6 (31:50):
Smidt is convinced that a pedophile came into the Ramsey
home and killed their daughter.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
On my computer, I probably got twenty five good leads
and I probably have another fifty pages of other leads
to follow.
Speaker 6 (32:04):
Among the files he's keeping on sex offenders in Boulder,
Gary Oliva's name stands out. In nineteen ninety one, the
year after he sexually assaulted the little girl, police reports
say he tried to strangle his mother with a telephone cord,
and in December nineteen ninety six, Oliva may have been
(32:25):
only a few houses away from John Bonnat's bedroom window.
Speaker 9 (32:29):
This is the alley ally that runs behind the Ramsey's
home leads into the backyard to the garage area.
Speaker 11 (32:35):
It wasn't uncommon for John Benin and Burke to ride
their bicycles around the alleyway.
Speaker 6 (32:40):
John Santagustain and Olie Gray, the Ramsey's private investigators, say
Oliva frequented these buildings owned by a local church.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
Well.
Speaker 9 (32:48):
A lot of transit people come here for food and
also to.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Pick up their mail.
Speaker 6 (32:53):
But why is this relevant?
Speaker 9 (32:55):
The Ramsey home is what ten houses right up.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
The sound of What did the Bolder police do with this? Nothing?
According to Lou Smith, the police didn't follow up on
ninety five percent of the more than three thousand phone
tips that came in in Oliva's case. They didn't investigate
him until nearly four years after John Bone Ramsey's death,
when he was caught with drugs and guess what else,
(33:22):
a stun gun. Did you ever use that sun gun
on a child?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
No?
Speaker 6 (33:27):
Oliva, who has wanted an Oregon for parole violations, turned
himself into the Bolder police two weeks ago. Did you
hurt or kill John Boney Ramsey?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
No? No, I didn't.
Speaker 6 (33:42):
Didn't you tell your friend that you were attracted to
little girls?
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I don't think I want to answer that.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
You were living in Boulder at the time John Benet
was killed.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah, just down the street.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
What he will admit to is an obsession with John Bennet.
Speaker 16 (33:58):
I believe that she came to me after she was
killed and revealed.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Herself to me.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
As it turns out, we're not the only ones interested
in Oliva. A Bolder police officer showed up to take notes.
Speaker 16 (34:12):
They would be concerned if any lead was not fully
taken to ground.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
Former Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter says police tried to
follow up on pedophiles, but admits that early on the
force was clearly overwhelmed. Didn't your office have to tell
police officers you got to look at these other leads.
You can't just focus on the rims.
Speaker 16 (34:35):
Well, it was said, probably not in quite that language,
but yes, can I consider it?
Speaker 6 (34:40):
Why didn't authorities take a sex offender like Oliva more seriously?
Just this week Boulder police said Oliva is not a suspect.
Sources say his DNA doesn't match evidence at the.
Speaker 7 (34:53):
Scene, nor does ours.
Speaker 6 (34:56):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 4 (34:58):
I think it's a devil stand, don't you?
Speaker 6 (35:03):
Is it fair to say then that the state of
the evidence right now there just isn't enough to convict
the Ramseys beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 16 (35:10):
There isn't enough to convict anybody beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 6 (35:14):
But Alex Hunter believes this case someday can be solved,
although he doesn't think Lou Smitt is the man to
do it. Do you feel that Lou Smith's feelings for
the Ramseys clouded his judgment?
Speaker 9 (35:26):
I think a little bit.
Speaker 6 (35:29):
Hunter believes Smit, a devout Christian, crossed the line. When
working as a DA investigator, He prayed with the Ramseyes.
Do you think maybe you've gotten too close to Ramseys?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Well, let's put it this way. I don't think I did.
If the Ramses did this and I found out, I'd
be first one standing in line at the Boulder Police Department.
Speaker 6 (35:50):
John Bene Ramsey would have been twelve years old this
year and in sixth grade. Instead, she's buried in a
Georgia cemetery while her brutal killer or killers go free.
Next a new interview with John Ramsey. Remarkably, not much
(36:18):
has changed since that two thousand and two program. The
cases at a standstill, but with a passage of so
much time comes a loss of some key figures, most
notably Patsy Ramsey, who died of cancer in two thousand
and six. She was forty nine. John Ramsey remarried five
(36:42):
years later. I think back about Patsy and I remember
Patsy saying that your lives could not go on until
the killer was found. How much weight was that on
Patsy before she died.
Speaker 7 (36:56):
Patsy was a very strong woman. She really was very
kind person, a wonderful mother. She got pretty vilified in
the media, which was horribly unfair. I think hurt deeper
than it showed.
Speaker 6 (37:12):
Investigator lou Smid worked on the case almost until the
day he died in August twenty ten. His family continues
to pursue leads. John, do you believe this case could
be solved?
Speaker 7 (37:28):
Yes, I do if the police will take advantage of
all the technology that's available to them, and that's going
to one or two of the world's cutting edge labs
for DNA testing, And I think if they do that,
and if for successful getting a sample in the right
format and then do the genealogy research, I'm eighty percent
(37:50):
confident it could be solved.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
But you got to do it.
Speaker 6 (37:52):
In November twenty twenty four, the Bolder Police Department released
a statement which said the assertion that there is viable
evidence and leads we are not pursuing to include DNA
testing is completely false. The department said there is an
ongoing investigation and they're looking into the recommendations made by
(38:16):
a recent cold case review team. Police Chief Stephen Redfern.
Speaker 17 (38:21):
We have thoroughly investigated multiple people identified as suspects throughout
the years, and we continue to be open minded about
what occurred as we investigate the tips that come into detectives.
Speaker 6 (38:35):
John Ramsey remains hopeful that these new efforts may finally
reveal the killer, a killer he believes was already waiting
in their house when the family came home from dinner
that Christmas night.
Speaker 7 (38:49):
We were casual with our security in our home in
a Boulder. We thought it was a safe place, and
we got casual and complacent.
Speaker 6 (38:58):
When you look back, are there any thing you wish
you had done differently?
Speaker 7 (39:02):
The little beauty pageants they participated in, and I wouldn't
have done that.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
You need to keep your children private.
Speaker 7 (39:12):
It was conflict for me because Passie, dis recovered from
stage four or varying cancer, was grateful to have some
life ahead.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Of her.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
In remission. Did how long to spend with her children
and to raise their children? I think she tried to
pack a lot of mother daughter time in that period
of time that she knew she had ahead of her.
Speaker 6 (39:33):
Do you ever dream about John today or wonder what
she would have been like now?
Speaker 7 (39:38):
Well, I've dream I occasionally have dreams, and they're really
wonderful dreams, But I don't try to imagine what she
would have been. She was in my life for six years,
and my little girl, and that's how I remember.
Speaker 10 (40:10):
As a kid growing up in Chicago, there was one
horror movie I was too scared to watch. It was
called Candy Man. But did you know that the movie
Candy Man was partly inspired by an actual murder. Listen
to Candy Man, The true story behind the Bathroom Mirror
Murder wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6 (40:25):
I'm Aaron Moriarty of forty eight Hours, and of all
the cases I've covered, this is the one that troubles
me most. Listen to Murder and the Orange Grove, the
trouble case against Crosley Green, Wherever you get your podcasts.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.