September 23, 2024 • 42 mins
Stand-up comedy royalty Margaret Cho joins Emily and Haley to discuss her reason for starting her comedy career, her incredible film 'All That We Love,' and her upcoming residency at Joe's Pub in New York City. Emily cheers as Margaret discusses her favorite drag queens, Haley digs up an unbelievable incident from Margaret's past, and we are treated to insight into what Margaret looks forward to in the future. So skip the champagne brunch, eat a sour sweet, and enjoy Episode 15 of 'How To Make It With Emily & Haley.'
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hayley. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know, saying we met online sounds a lot sexier
than it actually is.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Emily, you don't think it's clear we met on a
networking site?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
No, I think it sounds very much like I swiped
right on you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Would you like to meet a Britain person online site?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We're going to have to do this again now, aren't we.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi, my name is Margaret cho and I wanted to
be a stand up comedian when I grew up.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Wonderful Jack, I yeah, I read that you started at
like fourteen.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, but I think I started in my mind when
I was probably about eight.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And what how?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I wanted to just feel like I had friends, Like
I watched Joan Rivers on TV and she had these
catchphrases and she do it in her comedy where she'd
say can we talk? And everybody knew what it meant,
and like when you have a catchphrase like that, everybody's
your friend and they've already been updated and aware with
(01:37):
what you're going to say when and what that means.
There's like code meetings, and so that was so appealing
to me. I just knew that was what I wanted
to do. And when I was really a little kid,
I had very vivid dreams about being a stand up comedian.
And it feels much like it feels like now. It's
really interesting, but it's an art form that I've grown
(01:59):
up with that I've known my entire adult life and
much of my childhood. But yeah, I've always wanted to
do this.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Were you performing live at fourteen? You must have been
so small?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yes, yes, very small, very brave. I don't know. I
had a who was signing us up. She was a
theater teacher, so she was signing us up for open
mic nights at comedy clubs in our city in San Francisco.
So I was doing shows. There's some YouTube of me
(02:33):
and Sam Rockwell, we were a comedy duo, so there's
stuff on YouTube of us, and they came to our
school and did some TV shows about it, and so
we were just really ambitious little kids who didn't want
to be kids anymore. You know, we were young, young
adults very much in the way of being adults, wanting
(02:54):
to be adults. I wanted to be an adult and
I wanted to be a comedian.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Wow, that's so impressive. That's like a very intelligent thought
for an eight year old to be, Like, oh, catchphrases
would make me recognizable to the masses. Like I was
not thinking about that when I was saying so.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
I was already into branding, which is good, you know,
thinking about it in those terms. But yeah, I loved it.
And Joan and I later became good friends, and I
leaned on her a lot for support and for guidance,
and she was just incredible with me. What an incredible woman.
(03:32):
But she was somebody that helped me a lot in
my life.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I feel like you might actually just be psychic. That's
a lot of predicting that came. That's incredible. We move
on to telling you two facts that we discovered about you,
two random facts on the Internet and mine. I did
not know this, I swear until like two weeks ago
when I was on your Instagram and I saw that
(03:58):
you had posted my review for your film All That
We Love, and I didn't know before I reached out
to interview you, and it was like eleven o'clock at night,
and I was like, I guess I'm not sleeping. I
was so excited, so I just wanted to talk about
that film because I was crying in like the first
ten seconds. And I'm wondering, thank you. I mean, my
(04:23):
favorite thing about it was the premise is not Deadpool
and Wolverine. It's something that happens to people on a
daily basis. But I was so riveted by it. So
I'm wondering how you chose to become a part of that,
if you read the script, if it was made with
you in mind, and how you kind of prepared for
something like that.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes, well, thank you, thank you for that review. That
was really marvelous and I'm so grateful that you wrote that.
I read the script in Osco who's also in film,
Otsko Kotska, wonderful comedian, who alerted me she had gone
to film school with the nt Hana, who is the
writer director of the film, and she said, you need
to work with him. He's the real deal, you know, really,
(05:06):
he's he's the best and and so I I was
excited to read the script and I opened page and
started crying, like the first page, crying because I've been
through that, you know, loss of an animal. It's really intense,
and especially one that's like your heart dog, you know,
so throughout the film there is that the presence of
(05:30):
that heart dog, and there's like, you know, the the
dog dog actors were so cute, they were so beautiful
in the film. And then my dog, who's right here,
she's she was on set moment of the day and
she was there and she was really she couldn't be
on camera, but she was right there with me experiencing
(05:52):
it all. But you know, it's a it's an incredible
thing that we get these relationships with these creatures and
we get so close to them, and so I think
the film really represents that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, it was. I mean I had pets as a kid,
but suddenly I was like I was there, and I
felt like the directing too, was so well done. It
made like that those common things feel extraordinary, which yeah,
I just loved. I'm just like sobbing in my house alone,
(06:24):
like I was not expecting this at all.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I love it. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
She went on about it for quite some time.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Margaret, Oh, that's I'm really I mean, I love the
film because it's such a big story for like a person,
but a small story for film. When we go see films,
it's often like big explosions and apocalypse and like civil
wars and all this stuff and this. But this, this
(06:54):
kind of thing happens every day to people, and it's
the biggest thing that happens in their lives. And I
love a film that really captures that and captures the
enormity of every day. And I was really appreciative to
be a part of this project.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, for me, it was like the deep, deeply primal
nature of it. I think everybody understands grief. Everybody's been
there in some way, haven't they. And yeah, it just
it really did it in an interesting way.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I felt, thank you, thank you. I'm really proud of it.
I'm proud of everybody's performances. And is a wonderful director
and writer.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, you could tell it was like just by a
crew that had pulled together as well, Like, yeah, I
think you can tell when cruise are fragmented, and it
felt like it was solid.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yes, Yeah, it felt good for us, Hailey, would you
like to throw out your fact.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I hope it's true. Well I don't hope it's true.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Actually, well no, yeah, we'll debunk it if it's bad.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So, like, it's one of my boocket list things to
go in a hot air balloon on a hot air balloon, right,
And then I read that you were involved in a
hot air balloon crash, and then it made me question
all my life choices.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, what happened was it was a it was a
freak accident, so it's an unlikely event.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Good tonight.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
It was very very rare occurrence. This had never happened
before in that particular area. And it was in the
nineteen eighties, and it was I had won a comedy
competition but I was came in third. So the prize
was to go on a hotter balloon ride. So I
went on a date with a young man and we
went out in like five in the morning to go
(08:39):
do this hotter balloon in Napa. So we go up
and the pilot the whole time is telling jokes about
how we're going to crash. He's just joking, Like I'm
totally serious this, this is the safest thing. It's like
so easy thing, and then we were rising up and
then we're start to move very quickly. He's like, oh,
(09:00):
this is not good, and everybody's laughing, and he's like, no,
it's not a joke. It's not a joke. And then
just dropped and about ten balloons in the air all
I could see them all from the side. They were
all falling really quickly. We had to fall really quickly
to the ground until because we were being swept by
this freak windstorm into a forest. So we're falling really
(09:24):
fast and everybody's like looking around. My date put his
whole body around me and shielded me. I was against
these like fuel tanks that were like filled with like gasoline.
It was like really scary because they were rattling, and
he put his arms around me, like his whole body
to shield me from the impact of these bottles and
of gas and the ground. And we hit the corn
(09:50):
like nutcornfield. It was a cow patty like pasture, and
we dragged and all this cowshit went in my nose
and my ears and my mouth, but it broke our fall.
We got out, we kind of like dusted off, and
then everybody just kind of separated. We were kind of
vaguely like somewhat okay, So we just did We sort
(10:14):
of left the melee of like what was happening. There
was like ambulances and emergency vehicles and everything. We just
kind of walked away and we got in my car
and we drove to the emergency room. We got little
splints and bandage like cuts whatever treated, and then we
went back to my apartment and tried to have really
weird sex. I don't know. We think we were trying
(10:35):
to normalize the experience. This is like trauma, we better
try to do it. But it was like eleven in
the morning.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
He goes, He.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Goes, uh, I'm gonna go, and I was like okay,
and then I just laid there like I'm so weird
it out. I didn't see him again. I'm sure he
remembers me. We remember, but it was like somebody died
and a basket the balloon next to us. And then
I had to be a subpoena because the pilot of
(11:06):
our the one that kept making the bad jokes on
the way up, sued the company for going up that
day because they hadn't done a fair assessment of the weather,
and so he had permanent like PTSD, and like all
this physical damage from it that came out later on
and he couldn't continue anymore as a pilot and he
sued the company. But overall it was a freak accident.
(11:30):
So I think, Hayley, are.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You ready to go such a journey?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I would probably go again because the likelihood of me
being in another hot air balloon accident is high for
it to ever be a problem.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And I'm like, the weird sex afterwards, that's probably likely
because I if something weird happens, I try to have sex.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
To normalize it, which is like a trauma response, which
is probably isn't good.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I'm with you, I get it, you know, something weird happens.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I'm like, all right, you know, like you know that,
I just try to have sex in order to that.
That's for me is like the it gives me back
down to baseline. It's such a weird response to do
not the best.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
This was for you. Kids said you came in third place? Yeah,
And what happened to the first place person?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I think they got a bunch of money. Oh, and
then the second second I probably got a vacation. And
then the third one is like, oh, hot air balloon
drive with a champagne brunch. That was what was funny
about my date is that when we're like, as soon
as the basket stopped dragging on the ground, he looks
up and he goes, he's covered in cowshit and he
(12:46):
coughing and sputtering, and he goes, I guess that means
there's no champagne brunch.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That was a good joke for the It's a good joke,
and it was a.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Way to kind of like, oh, we didn't die or
and I also to check to see if we were
still alive, right right, Like he actually like, uses, yeah,
that was nice. Mine's that's kind of amazing. And on
our first date, I was like, hey, that's kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, impressive. I wonder what happened to him?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I know, I think his.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Name was John. I think I can't even remember John.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
If you're listening, what happened. We just touched on how
young you were when you started. But in your stand
up you talk about some traumatic things you've been through.
You've talked about in and interviews and stuff like that,
(13:36):
and I find when people go through really tough times
they kind of shut down. But you were such a workhorse.
When you first started, just right out of the gate,
it felt like you were working so hard, and I'm
wondering how you found that strength to kind of kick
into gear, because I feel like a lot of times
it's the opposite. And I find it so impressive and
(13:58):
incredible that you were able to end with comedy kind
of just flourish in this way that I feel like
a lot of people wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Oh, thank you. It's just energizing. Like I love the
art form and you're constantly trying to figure it out.
And college comedy tours are really difficult because you're moving
in between schools and oftentimes they're not the optimal conditions
because you're sometimes performing in the cafeteria noon on top
of tables. And at least back then, we weren't fighting
(14:30):
with people with smartphones. This is before we had phones
or even really so everybody would just like have you
to look at while they're like eating lunch. But you
just kind of deal with the regularness of that's it's funny.
But I just love the art form and I love
to try to figure it out, and it's a constant
challenge and it's a constant opportunity to work on what
(14:52):
it is, and I do shows pretty much every day.
It's a big part of my life, and it's a
big part of my social life. All my friends or
comics and we just hang out and that's what we do.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Would you say that kind of work was therapeutic for you.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, it's definitely therapeutic. But it's also more than that.
It's like social it's economic living, and it's connection with
audience members but also other comics and this connection with
my own mind trying to figure out what is the
(15:27):
things that I'm going to work on, what are the
stories that I'm going to tell, what is the outcome
of this, and what's the point of this? So these
are all to sort of get my mind right. It's
all about that.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, did you drive your family crazy practicing your material
on them?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
No, I've never practiced on anybody. That's probably only like
what audiences like. I've never really. I think most comedians
I know would never do that. They would never try
their jokes on their friends or family, because that, for us,
that's really considered very taboo. There's something about that that
(16:08):
that's very like, oh, that you should don't try your
jokes out on your friend. It's one thing to say,
I'm going to thinking about doing this in my act,
will you what do you think about it? But instead
it's it's more like if you just bring that on somebody,
it's just it's not good. It's not cool to do that.
But we have a maybe that's a sort of a
(16:28):
suspicion superstition that we don't do it.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Somebody tell my twelve year old she's developed an obsession
with Jack Whitehall and comes to me daily with just
her version of Jack Whitehall gags. It's not ending though
it's been a year now.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah, it's it's well, it's funny like sometimes people get
they get so into comedy and they want to do it,
and that's how they sort of start, is like by
looking at somebody and thinking, oh, I want to be
Maybe I sort of did that when I was young
with somebody like Joan Rivers. I was trying to be
like her. And now I look at that and I'm like,
I'm definitely still trying to be like her.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Okay, it's nice when you see threads of other people's
work through contemporary work, though I love it.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, you can't do it with people in your life
because people find comedians so inauthentic anyway, so we're always
happy to like really prove the fact that we actually
are real for real. I mean there's some people who
probably don't go by that, but the comedians that I
know in my life actually are very serious people, not
(17:39):
like crack you up people. They're really like super serious people.
I know Fred Armison and he's so serious. He's like
super serious, like you're a punchline and you want to
laugh at their face just because they're physically there, because
you're just like, oh, everything you say is going to
(17:59):
be fun because it's you're you. But it's not like that,
and it's so weird how serious those guys are. But
they're very serious. They're they're like comedians. I mean they
are comedians, so they're very very serious. It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I actually exhausting to just be trying to be funny
all the time, though, Like I get why you'd kind
of go to a serious zone with it.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
It must be exhausting, Yeah, people, and people sort of
expect that of you. Yeah think, oh, they make an
assumption that that's what you're going to be like. But
comedy itself is quite a thoughtful, precise art form. And
it's less about being funny, is it more? Is it
about being observant and more about being consistent in the
(18:45):
ability to be observant. So it's it's more that.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I think I wanted to ask you, Margaret, about becoming
a beloved figure in the drag world, and yeah, becoming
a bit of an icon. What do you think is
about your persona and your work that resonates so deeply
with the drug community.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I love that. I love drag queens. I've grown up
with drag. I grew up in San Francisco, just in
the middle of everything, and I really admire drags. It
is like stand up comedy, plus it's stand up comedy
with music with dance costumes so much it's like an
(19:27):
enhanced version of stand up comedy, but it still mostly
stand up comedy. And so we have a lot in
common dragments and comedians where we're really the same in
a lot of ways. But they have to do a
lot more work than we do. They've to carry their
costumes from city to city. That's the worst. When they
see a port drag queen at the airport and they're
having their drag and their bags, so many bags fuilled
(19:50):
with big headdresses and wigs. It's rough, it's really hard,
but I really admire them, and I think that I
think also with the gay community loves strong female voices,
and they love female comedians and and so I'm part
of the legacy of that. And I think there is
so much of my work that talks about the gay
(20:12):
community and being queer myself. You know, there's so much
of that in my political life and in my social life,
and so we find community there. But I'm such a
fan of Drag.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah are my favorite drug artist.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I was gonna say, you can't ask that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
There's so many, but I really well, I love Nina West.
I just did a film with her. We did a
zombie movie together, which is a drag zombie movie, which
is so incredible, and she's just marvelous. And I love
Trixie Mattel and Katya. I love Bianca del Rio like
I love, who is essentially just a stantic comedian and
(20:49):
she's just so great, and as is Trixie. But Trixy
is also an incredible musician and an designer. Just her
aesthetic it's incredible, but also their output and what they
do is like comedians and performers all over the world.
It's just genius. Bob the drag Queen is unstoppable, you know,
(21:10):
just incredible. I mean, there's so much to say about
what people are doing. Alaska. I just saw Alaska a
flight and I were out of drag. They just walk around.
They're beautiful young men, Like I always see them at
the airport with all their bags and without any makeup,
and I always just grab them. And they're always scared
(21:31):
because I have the mask on and I'm like them
and they're like, what you know, and I have to
pull my mask on as Margaret, and it's very to me.
It's just it's so funny and fun to just see
them out of drag life. And I love kim Chi
Nymphia everybody. I'm like so in love with the drag world.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Me too. I'm upset. Like one of my favorite tricksy
things that she said, which reminded me of what you
said about comedy plus is tricky and caught you. They
do that YouTube show where they watch they do recaps
of shows, and they were doing a makeup competition and
they were both like, can you imagine just having to
do someone's makeup, Like that's all you have to do,
(22:12):
all you have to do. Yeah, And Tricksy was like,
if this was drag Race, it would be like and
you have to perform surgery and the patient's your mother
and you like one hour. It's just incredible what they
do and how hard they work.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I felt bad, Like when I was on drag Race
adjudged and there was where you could watch them in
their makeup room. But the mirror is like a double
mirror and they can't see you. So you're behind the mirror.
You can observe them, Wow, but you can't they And
I didn't want to be in there. I felt really
(22:49):
like scared. I was like, I don't want to I
felt bad. I mean it was part of the show,
but I was like I was really scared, Like there
was nothing about it to me that made me really terrify.
But I do love that show and I really was.
I just did something with RuPaul last week and I
was begging her to do drag Racing Korea. Drag Race
(23:10):
Philippines is so good. Yes, the fashion career would be amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Someday, Like watching drag Race was my kind of It's
how I found out how much work goes into it
because in the UK, I think a lot of people's
introduction to drag was Paulo Grady, Lily Savage. Yeah, and
Lily is so it's She's just an icon in this country.
And that's basically all we had for a really long time.
(23:39):
And I had no idea the scale of it.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's huge, huge, incredible, and it's global, and it's also
now we have a generation of drag things who grew
up watching it. Yes, so this is like another level
of excellence. There's just so much happening and I appreciated
as an art form.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I know you have your residence at Joe's Pub coming
up right, I have tickets. I live in New Jersey,
so I'm coming to a show on the October twenty fifth,
Charlotte Case. That's yes, yes, yes. As soon as it
was announced, I was like.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Okay, yeah, it's gonna be good. It's going to be
really really good.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Will you bring any drag.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
There's a lot of trans shows. There's a lot of
trans performers that are doing the Margaret's Children's show. There's
something like I'm basically like my nursery, so it's my big,
beautiful Darling Baby, Children, trans Women, and My Beautiful Baby.
They Them's Yes are doing a show. So it's Sabrina
(24:44):
Woo and Nori Reid and Robin Tran are doing one
night and then Sam Oh the Gay Virgin and Dylan
Adler doing another night, and so that's my Babies, which
is really great.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I have to get more tickets.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
It's going to be great.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
That's you for the foreseeable, Emily.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yes, I will be a regular at Joe's Pub.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So we move on to a section now Margaret called
the Story, and it's about kind of a point in
your career where you're thinking, can I be bothered to
carry on? Like? Why am I doing this kind of thing? So,
for example, this week, I'm an intimacy coordinator and I
had a production contact me and basically begged me to
(25:42):
come to set that day, even though I had loads
on and I did all the pre work. I did
it all, and I drove two hours to get there,
and then I get to the production and it's like
I don't exist, and they haven't put any time into this.
They haven't done anything that I've asked for, and it's
like they've just tick boxed it off. They've gone, oh,
(26:03):
there's an intimacy coordinator bills it. Yes, so I put
myself right out there and I can't actually do my job,
and yeah, have you had an instance in your career
where you're just like, oh, what's the point.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Well, thank you. I love intimacy coordinators. I'm so grateful
that we have them now because it's just so important.
I mean, it's like a human rights violation to not
have one, especially like with all the kind of stuff
that goes on or can go on on a film
set or TV set, whatever, the levels of uncomfortable things
(26:36):
that actors are required to do to keep our jobs.
When you guys keep us safe, which is so appreciated
and important, it's just, Oh, it's unbelievable how much better
it makes it. We're so comfortable now to do anything.
Like It's it's true like I've been. I was doing
(26:57):
a scene one time, this is like a long time ago,
was really like a young actress and the actor got
any erection in this seat and I was so scared
And it wasn't his faults, it was just that just happened.
And I was like, but it felt like traumatic to
me in the situation because I don't.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
It was.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It was just like this thing and I felt really
freaked out. And it's like that's the kind of stuff
we would do deal with on a daily basis, like
in the eighties and nineties. You just have to deal
with that. That's just something that happened.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah. See, now there's so much that we put in
place to stop that becoming a traumatic experience. I know.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Now it's like so great because we have our like
deflated rubber balls and putting.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
In sweet to make it go away, really sour sweet.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's so good to have that layer.
But I think that for me it was more one
night was actually doing a lot of that college touring,
and I was so like sleep deprived and getting up
(28:09):
in the middle of the night every day to go
to another city. And I remember like jumping up in
my hotel room, not entirely sure where I was. I
started packing my bag just assuming I was late and
getting out the door, and I realized I looked at
the clock and it was eleven PM, and I was
just like, like I was so scared because I didn't
(28:31):
even know where I was. I didn't even know what
time I had to leave, and it was like that
thing of like I can't even relax, Like I can't
even lay my head down because I'm just so scared
I'm going to miss my flight, Scared I'm going to
be late, Scared I'm going to not do that. And
it was just really I was like, what is this for?
What is this even for? And I've never come back
(28:52):
to that place mentally, I've made space in my mind
by half the heavy days in my schedule, well, I
just take some time to really look at that and
go those are the days that I need to lean
more into meditation. Those are the days that I need
to lean more into finding places where I can be
(29:12):
calm and be quiet. And if it isn't sleep, at
least it's silence, isn't it isn't totally like taking an
app then it's just like not doing anything or even
not having a conversation with another person. For me, it's
like I trying to safeguard my piece because I can
get into this place where it gets really hectic and
(29:34):
I'm like I can't even I don't know what to do. Yeah,
I've gotten to a place where it's just like why
am I doing this? Why? But those are real signs
to help you direct your thinking to a place of
peace and find wherever that peace lies, because it's there,
even though in a very busy schedule, you can still
find a breath where you can be peaceful.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah. It's so important, isn't it. It's about like having
your personal boundaries as well. I'm just discovering this from
myself off recently, just being able to kind of go, yeah,
I need this time mm hmm. It's yeah. It's an
interesting place for sure to kind of feel around it.
I think it takes people a long time to get there,
(30:16):
generally me.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
It's so good, but it's like, I love it, Hayle.
It's been waiting for me to get there for three years.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
No, I like the I like the course correction. I'm like,
let me see if it happens again this time when
I do the same things I did last time without
changing anything. Yikes. Anyway, Oh boy, Margaret, if you had
(30:49):
to put a definition on what making it means to you,
and this can be in career or in life, what
would that be.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I think making it it's just feeling good. Like I
feel good pretty much all the time, and that's really
because I'm very satisfied in my career. I'm satisfied in
my assistic life. I have a lot of fun in
my creative life, and I feed my creative life a
lot with doing lots of shows, doing a lot of writing,
(31:19):
taking on lots of different kinds of roles as an actor,
making music. So I feed my artistic life and I
feed my creative life. But I also have fun, and
I also have like a good strong sense of what
I need from the world, and whether that's silence and isolation,
like solitude, whether that's animals, whether that's friends and people
(31:41):
and hanging out and just having a good time, or
going to see movies or I'm going to see concerts
or whatever that is. I think I feel like, Oh,
making it is just feeling good, feeling happy and satisfied
in your life. And that can happen at any age,
at any stage in your career. You're making it, if
(32:01):
you're enjoying the process of doing what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Do you have any advice that you would give to
someone in a world that's so focused on awards and
numbers and things like that.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Well, art is its own reward, and to do it
and create it and be it and live. It is
as good as it gets always, you know, and that
recognition from others is an element of it. And of
course there's financial reward and accolades and all of that stuff,
but you have to remember why you do what you
(32:34):
do in the first place, and that let that be
the enjoyment. Like for me, the best feeling is writing
a joke, telling it on stage and it working, and
that is like the best feeling. And so I'm always
chasing that. I'm addicted to that feeling, and that feeling
has very little to do with maybe posting that online
and how many views it gets or how many how
(32:55):
if it goes viral or whatever that could happen. But
I don't chase that. What I'm chasing is the feeling
that I felt when I wrote it and then put
it up there and people responded. So I think it's
about realizing why you do what you do. You're doing
this for accolades and for views and for the gram
and all that stuff. That's all good, but it may
(33:18):
not be as rewarding to you in the end because
that stuff is so imprecise. It's so hard to navigate
what's actually going to get you. That if you're really
looking for that, and that is the joy that you're getting,
is that the sort of accolades. Then you have to
keep on producing and keep on keep on putting stuff
(33:38):
into feeding the algorithms so that it comes your way,
because inevitably it will keep on feeding it. It can
take a long time. The people in the industry that
I have known who are really successful are not the
most famous or the like, not the most beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Like.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
The people who are successful are the people who just
keep doing it and keep plugging away and keep on
working and keep on feeding it, and they will eventually
achieve it whatever they're looking for or something better. But
it's interesting, like people get very frustrated with it. And
show business also changes so much. There may be a
(34:17):
time where we don't have the algorithm totally. We don't
have it before, right, that's relatively new in the past
decade or so. We didn't have that before. So in
maybe a few years we may not have that system
and maybe a whole new system that we're confronting. So
(34:38):
the resiliency of the artist to really make it is
to find the simple thing of what is it that
makes makes you feel the best about doing your art
and Chase.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
That I love that. Yeah. Same. Have you ever been
tempted to change the way you do things to kind
of fit those algorithms and such like?
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, well I think like, yes, know, like I think, oh,
that would be cool if I could be Like sometimes
I see some of these people who are like famous
for calling people out. Oh, like you know, they get
they get really like indignant about some kind of issue
(35:17):
and they call people. I really like the I like
those creators. I think they're brave and I think that
they're really unique. It's right like heroic to do what
they do. But then then it gets dismantled because people
go into their past and they're like, wait, you said
this and then you you were got married on a
plantation like that kind of sound like it. It becomes
(35:39):
like this whole messy Oh that's so funny because we
want to present ourselves at these faultless beings, but it's
impossible because the Internet is forever and so you're always
presented with the worst versions of yourself. And so yeah,
I also thought, like I have these gross fantasies of
(36:00):
if I became like a right wing like sup like
a super right wing, like all right, and then it
freaks me. I'm like, get so scared, like a political
commentator that was super left wing and then you turned
right wing? Like that would be and I get sick
thinkt about it. But wouldn't that be kind of amazing?
But so I I want to die when I think
(36:20):
about it, But like, like, oh, what if I did.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
That all for the algorithm? Do you think with because
we obviously had a streaming boom where streaming kind of happened,
you know, a handful of years ago, and then it
was like a million shows and now it's like kind
of settling. I actually saw this thing recently where it
was like some bundle of so many different streaming services,
(36:46):
and someone commented and was like, isn't this cable? Do
you think do you think that? Yeah, it's like we
always end up back where we started. Do you think
that'll be something that shifts how people have to create?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Once?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Again? I think so?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I think it's always going to change. Yeah, everything is
always changing, and that's what's so great about it. But
then also everything kind of remains the same because like
the way that I go about things and the way
that I go about my business, like sitting down writing
a joke telling it that night, tell seeing what that's
always going to be the same, so that that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah yeah, and you're yeah yeah. I guess the
people who are doing it for Instagram would be the
ones with the problems, not the people who are doing
it because they love yeah, or.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
If they're doing it for Instagram, it's just going to
change to whatever other platform because we as human beings
need to connect, right, so we'll be connecting on a
different level whatever that medium becomes. I don't know what
the next change will be with technology will bring us,
but there'll be something.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
I miss my Space.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I love my Space. I know all those weird like
animations that would make your computer crash, have a good week,
and then it would be like these things that are
like angel fire everything with that, let's bring that back.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You could have really like Gordie color schemes, and you'd
like top your top people you liked and all the
people that you fancied.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yes, it was really I I like my I was
never really on my Space that much because I didn't
really even have a computer till later, so and I
didn't even have a phone till much later. So I'm
a little relative newcomer to any of nice.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, that's a good place to be because it's just
all ridiculous anyway.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, if I didn't get lost so much, I would
just have one of those phones with two buttons.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
But I need my GPS same.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I used to be really good with a map before
Google Maps and made me dumb. It's made me dumb.
Our last section is called your chapter type. So we're
(39:01):
hoping at some point at with Emily, we're hoping to
make all of these episodes into a little mini book
and each guest is going to have a chapter title.
So if you could think of a chapter title that
sums up your career journey so far, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (39:18):
The ever evolving adventure?
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Oh you're like that. Yeah that's great. Yeah that was
very concise and beautiful.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, because it is. It's always changing.
It's an adventure, but it's always evolving into something else.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Is there anything you hope comes in the future that
you haven't done yet?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I don't know, Like, I mean, I have an album
of music coming out in November ish, and I want
the experience of maybe playing more live music and a
load larger fashion. I played a lot of live music
in clubs in a little bit in adendum to my
stand comedy. But yeah, I'd love to do a little
bit more so we'll see cool.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Are we going for an arena to all? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
One of my favorite parts of seeing shows at Largo
was that it was a mix of comedy and often
music too, which I'd never seen them combined before.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yeah. I love it. I love Largo and it's my
I have a monthly show there, so I'll do a
show there this weekend, and it's for me. It's a
really important place. It's a place that I will always form.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, it's a it's a really cool venue. I was
glad that COVID didn't make it go away.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
So yeah, well this was This was wonderful. This has
been like a highlight for me. So thank you so
much for being on and for being wonderful. And I'm
very excited to see the show in October. Slash yeah
for how long you're there.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
How to Make It is recorded from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley Murleidarn For more adventures
with Emily and Haley, follow us on Instagram at how
to Make It Podcast, where you'll find clips from today's episode,
(41:23):
many episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like and subscribe
to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever other
fine podcasts are found.
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hayley. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know, saying we met online sounds a lot sexier
than it actually is.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Emily, you don't think it's clear we met on a
networking site?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
No, I think it sounds very much like I swiped
right on you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Would you like to meet a Britain person online site?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
We're going to have to do this again now, aren't we.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hi, my name is Margaret cho and I wanted to
be a stand up comedian when I grew up.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Wonderful Jack, I yeah, I read that you started at
like fourteen.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, but I think I started in my mind when
I was probably about eight.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
And what how?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
I wanted to just feel like I had friends, Like
I watched Joan Rivers on TV and she had these
catchphrases and she do it in her comedy where she'd
say can we talk? And everybody knew what it meant,
and like when you have a catchphrase like that, everybody's
your friend and they've already been updated and aware with
(01:37):
what you're going to say when and what that means.
There's like code meetings, and so that was so appealing
to me. I just knew that was what I wanted
to do. And when I was really a little kid,
I had very vivid dreams about being a stand up comedian.
And it feels much like it feels like now. It's
really interesting, but it's an art form that I've grown
(01:59):
up with that I've known my entire adult life and
much of my childhood. But yeah, I've always wanted to
do this.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Were you performing live at fourteen? You must have been
so small?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yes, yes, very small, very brave. I don't know. I
had a who was signing us up. She was a
theater teacher, so she was signing us up for open
mic nights at comedy clubs in our city in San Francisco.
So I was doing shows. There's some YouTube of me
(02:33):
and Sam Rockwell, we were a comedy duo, so there's
stuff on YouTube of us, and they came to our
school and did some TV shows about it, and so
we were just really ambitious little kids who didn't want
to be kids anymore. You know, we were young, young
adults very much in the way of being adults, wanting
(02:54):
to be adults. I wanted to be an adult and
I wanted to be a comedian.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Wow, that's so impressive. That's like a very intelligent thought
for an eight year old to be, Like, oh, catchphrases
would make me recognizable to the masses. Like I was
not thinking about that when I was saying so.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
I was already into branding, which is good, you know,
thinking about it in those terms. But yeah, I loved it.
And Joan and I later became good friends, and I
leaned on her a lot for support and for guidance,
and she was just incredible with me. What an incredible woman.
(03:32):
But she was somebody that helped me a lot in
my life.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I feel like you might actually just be psychic. That's
a lot of predicting that came. That's incredible. We move
on to telling you two facts that we discovered about you,
two random facts on the Internet and mine. I did
not know this, I swear until like two weeks ago
when I was on your Instagram and I saw that
(03:58):
you had posted my review for your film All That
We Love, and I didn't know before I reached out
to interview you, and it was like eleven o'clock at night,
and I was like, I guess I'm not sleeping. I
was so excited, so I just wanted to talk about
that film because I was crying in like the first
ten seconds. And I'm wondering, thank you. I mean, my
(04:23):
favorite thing about it was the premise is not Deadpool
and Wolverine. It's something that happens to people on a
daily basis. But I was so riveted by it. So
I'm wondering how you chose to become a part of that,
if you read the script, if it was made with
you in mind, and how you kind of prepared for
something like that.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yes, well, thank you, thank you for that review. That
was really marvelous and I'm so grateful that you wrote that.
I read the script in Osco who's also in film,
Otsko Kotska, wonderful comedian, who alerted me she had gone
to film school with the nt Hana, who is the
writer director of the film, and she said, you need
to work with him. He's the real deal, you know, really,
(05:06):
he's he's the best and and so I I was
excited to read the script and I opened page and
started crying, like the first page, crying because I've been
through that, you know, loss of an animal. It's really intense,
and especially one that's like your heart dog, you know,
so throughout the film there is that the presence of
(05:30):
that heart dog, and there's like, you know, the the
dog dog actors were so cute, they were so beautiful
in the film. And then my dog, who's right here,
she's she was on set moment of the day and
she was there and she was really she couldn't be
on camera, but she was right there with me experiencing
(05:52):
it all. But you know, it's a it's an incredible
thing that we get these relationships with these creatures and
we get so close to them, and so I think
the film really represents that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, it was. I mean I had pets as a kid,
but suddenly I was like I was there, and I
felt like the directing too, was so well done. It
made like that those common things feel extraordinary, which yeah,
I just loved. I'm just like sobbing in my house alone,
(06:24):
like I was not expecting this at all.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I love it. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
She went on about it for quite some time.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Margaret, Oh, that's I'm really I mean, I love the
film because it's such a big story for like a person,
but a small story for film. When we go see films,
it's often like big explosions and apocalypse and like civil
wars and all this stuff and this. But this, this
(06:54):
kind of thing happens every day to people, and it's
the biggest thing that happens in their lives. And I
love a film that really captures that and captures the
enormity of every day. And I was really appreciative to
be a part of this project.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, for me, it was like the deep, deeply primal
nature of it. I think everybody understands grief. Everybody's been
there in some way, haven't they. And yeah, it just
it really did it in an interesting way.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I felt, thank you, thank you. I'm really proud of it.
I'm proud of everybody's performances. And is a wonderful director
and writer.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, you could tell it was like just by a
crew that had pulled together as well, Like, yeah, I
think you can tell when cruise are fragmented, and it
felt like it was solid.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yes, Yeah, it felt good for us, Hailey, would you
like to throw out your fact.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I hope it's true. Well I don't hope it's true.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Actually, well no, yeah, we'll debunk it if it's bad.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
So, like, it's one of my boocket list things to
go in a hot air balloon on a hot air balloon, right,
And then I read that you were involved in a
hot air balloon crash, and then it made me question
all my life choices.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, what happened was it was a it was a
freak accident, so it's an unlikely event.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Good tonight.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
It was very very rare occurrence. This had never happened
before in that particular area. And it was in the
nineteen eighties, and it was I had won a comedy
competition but I was came in third. So the prize
was to go on a hotter balloon ride. So I
went on a date with a young man and we
went out in like five in the morning to go
(08:39):
do this hotter balloon in Napa. So we go up
and the pilot the whole time is telling jokes about
how we're going to crash. He's just joking, Like I'm
totally serious this, this is the safest thing. It's like
so easy thing, and then we were rising up and
then we're start to move very quickly. He's like, oh,
(09:00):
this is not good, and everybody's laughing, and he's like, no,
it's not a joke. It's not a joke. And then
just dropped and about ten balloons in the air all
I could see them all from the side. They were
all falling really quickly. We had to fall really quickly
to the ground until because we were being swept by
this freak windstorm into a forest. So we're falling really
(09:24):
fast and everybody's like looking around. My date put his
whole body around me and shielded me. I was against
these like fuel tanks that were like filled with like gasoline.
It was like really scary because they were rattling, and
he put his arms around me, like his whole body
to shield me from the impact of these bottles and
of gas and the ground. And we hit the corn
(09:50):
like nutcornfield. It was a cow patty like pasture, and
we dragged and all this cowshit went in my nose
and my ears and my mouth, but it broke our fall.
We got out, we kind of like dusted off, and
then everybody just kind of separated. We were kind of
vaguely like somewhat okay, So we just did We sort
(10:14):
of left the melee of like what was happening. There
was like ambulances and emergency vehicles and everything. We just
kind of walked away and we got in my car
and we drove to the emergency room. We got little
splints and bandage like cuts whatever treated, and then we
went back to my apartment and tried to have really
weird sex. I don't know. We think we were trying
(10:35):
to normalize the experience. This is like trauma, we better
try to do it. But it was like eleven in
the morning.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
He goes, He.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Goes, uh, I'm gonna go, and I was like okay,
and then I just laid there like I'm so weird
it out. I didn't see him again. I'm sure he
remembers me. We remember, but it was like somebody died
and a basket the balloon next to us. And then
I had to be a subpoena because the pilot of
(11:06):
our the one that kept making the bad jokes on
the way up, sued the company for going up that
day because they hadn't done a fair assessment of the weather,
and so he had permanent like PTSD, and like all
this physical damage from it that came out later on
and he couldn't continue anymore as a pilot and he
sued the company. But overall it was a freak accident.
(11:30):
So I think, Hayley, are.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You ready to go such a journey?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I would probably go again because the likelihood of me
being in another hot air balloon accident is high for
it to ever be a problem.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And I'm like, the weird sex afterwards, that's probably likely
because I if something weird happens, I try to have sex.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
To normalize it, which is like a trauma response, which
is probably isn't good.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I'm with you, I get it, you know, something weird happens.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I'm like, all right, you know, like you know that,
I just try to have sex in order to that.
That's for me is like the it gives me back
down to baseline. It's such a weird response to do
not the best.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
This was for you. Kids said you came in third place? Yeah,
And what happened to the first place person?
Speaker 3 (12:24):
I think they got a bunch of money. Oh, and
then the second second I probably got a vacation. And
then the third one is like, oh, hot air balloon
drive with a champagne brunch. That was what was funny
about my date is that when we're like, as soon
as the basket stopped dragging on the ground, he looks
up and he goes, he's covered in cowshit and he
(12:46):
coughing and sputtering, and he goes, I guess that means
there's no champagne brunch.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
That was a good joke for the It's a good joke,
and it was a.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Way to kind of like, oh, we didn't die or
and I also to check to see if we were
still alive, right right, Like he actually like, uses, yeah,
that was nice. Mine's that's kind of amazing. And on
our first date, I was like, hey, that's kind of cool.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, impressive. I wonder what happened to him?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I know, I think his.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Name was John. I think I can't even remember John.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
If you're listening, what happened. We just touched on how
young you were when you started. But in your stand
up you talk about some traumatic things you've been through.
You've talked about in and interviews and stuff like that,
(13:36):
and I find when people go through really tough times
they kind of shut down. But you were such a workhorse.
When you first started, just right out of the gate,
it felt like you were working so hard, and I'm
wondering how you found that strength to kind of kick
into gear, because I feel like a lot of times
it's the opposite. And I find it so impressive and
(13:58):
incredible that you were able to end with comedy kind
of just flourish in this way that I feel like
a lot of people wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Oh, thank you. It's just energizing. Like I love the
art form and you're constantly trying to figure it out.
And college comedy tours are really difficult because you're moving
in between schools and oftentimes they're not the optimal conditions
because you're sometimes performing in the cafeteria noon on top
of tables. And at least back then, we weren't fighting
(14:30):
with people with smartphones. This is before we had phones
or even really so everybody would just like have you
to look at while they're like eating lunch. But you
just kind of deal with the regularness of that's it's funny.
But I just love the art form and I love
to try to figure it out, and it's a constant
challenge and it's a constant opportunity to work on what
(14:52):
it is, and I do shows pretty much every day.
It's a big part of my life, and it's a
big part of my social life. All my friends or
comics and we just hang out and that's what we do.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Would you say that kind of work was therapeutic for you.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah, it's definitely therapeutic. But it's also more than that.
It's like social it's economic living, and it's connection with
audience members but also other comics and this connection with
my own mind trying to figure out what is the
(15:27):
things that I'm going to work on, what are the
stories that I'm going to tell, what is the outcome
of this, and what's the point of this? So these
are all to sort of get my mind right. It's
all about that.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, did you drive your family crazy practicing your material
on them?
Speaker 3 (15:46):
No, I've never practiced on anybody. That's probably only like
what audiences like. I've never really. I think most comedians
I know would never do that. They would never try
their jokes on their friends or family, because that, for us,
that's really considered very taboo. There's something about that that
(16:08):
that's very like, oh, that you should don't try your
jokes out on your friend. It's one thing to say,
I'm going to thinking about doing this in my act,
will you what do you think about it? But instead
it's it's more like if you just bring that on somebody,
it's just it's not good. It's not cool to do that.
But we have a maybe that's a sort of a
(16:28):
suspicion superstition that we don't do it.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Somebody tell my twelve year old she's developed an obsession
with Jack Whitehall and comes to me daily with just
her version of Jack Whitehall gags. It's not ending though
it's been a year now.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah, it's it's well, it's funny like sometimes people get
they get so into comedy and they want to do it,
and that's how they sort of start, is like by
looking at somebody and thinking, oh, I want to be
Maybe I sort of did that when I was young
with somebody like Joan Rivers. I was trying to be
like her. And now I look at that and I'm like,
I'm definitely still trying to be like her.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Okay, it's nice when you see threads of other people's
work through contemporary work, though I love it.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, you can't do it with people in your life
because people find comedians so inauthentic anyway, so we're always
happy to like really prove the fact that we actually
are real for real. I mean there's some people who
probably don't go by that, but the comedians that I
know in my life actually are very serious people, not
(17:39):
like crack you up people. They're really like super serious people.
I know Fred Armison and he's so serious. He's like
super serious, like you're a punchline and you want to
laugh at their face just because they're physically there, because
you're just like, oh, everything you say is going to
(17:59):
be fun because it's you're you. But it's not like that,
and it's so weird how serious those guys are. But
they're very serious. They're they're like comedians. I mean they
are comedians, so they're very very serious. It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I actually exhausting to just be trying to be funny
all the time, though, Like I get why you'd kind
of go to a serious zone with it.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
It must be exhausting, Yeah, people, and people sort of
expect that of you. Yeah think, oh, they make an
assumption that that's what you're going to be like. But
comedy itself is quite a thoughtful, precise art form. And
it's less about being funny, is it more? Is it
about being observant and more about being consistent in the
(18:45):
ability to be observant. So it's it's more that.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I think I wanted to ask you, Margaret, about becoming
a beloved figure in the drag world, and yeah, becoming
a bit of an icon. What do you think is
about your persona and your work that resonates so deeply
with the drug community.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
I love that. I love drag queens. I've grown up
with drag. I grew up in San Francisco, just in
the middle of everything, and I really admire drags. It
is like stand up comedy, plus it's stand up comedy
with music with dance costumes so much it's like an
(19:27):
enhanced version of stand up comedy, but it still mostly
stand up comedy. And so we have a lot in
common dragments and comedians where we're really the same in
a lot of ways. But they have to do a
lot more work than we do. They've to carry their
costumes from city to city. That's the worst. When they
see a port drag queen at the airport and they're
having their drag and their bags, so many bags fuilled
(19:50):
with big headdresses and wigs. It's rough, it's really hard,
but I really admire them, and I think that I
think also with the gay community loves strong female voices,
and they love female comedians and and so I'm part
of the legacy of that. And I think there is
so much of my work that talks about the gay
(20:12):
community and being queer myself. You know, there's so much
of that in my political life and in my social life,
and so we find community there. But I'm such a
fan of Drag.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah are my favorite drug artist.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I was gonna say, you can't ask that.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
There's so many, but I really well, I love Nina West.
I just did a film with her. We did a
zombie movie together, which is a drag zombie movie, which
is so incredible, and she's just marvelous. And I love
Trixie Mattel and Katya. I love Bianca del Rio like
I love, who is essentially just a stantic comedian and
(20:49):
she's just so great, and as is Trixie. But Trixy
is also an incredible musician and an designer. Just her
aesthetic it's incredible, but also their output and what they
do is like comedians and performers all over the world.
It's just genius. Bob the drag Queen is unstoppable, you know,
(21:10):
just incredible. I mean, there's so much to say about
what people are doing. Alaska. I just saw Alaska a
flight and I were out of drag. They just walk around.
They're beautiful young men, Like I always see them at
the airport with all their bags and without any makeup,
and I always just grab them. And they're always scared
(21:31):
because I have the mask on and I'm like them
and they're like, what you know, and I have to
pull my mask on as Margaret, and it's very to me.
It's just it's so funny and fun to just see
them out of drag life. And I love kim Chi
Nymphia everybody. I'm like so in love with the drag world.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Me too. I'm upset. Like one of my favorite tricksy
things that she said, which reminded me of what you
said about comedy plus is tricky and caught you. They
do that YouTube show where they watch they do recaps
of shows, and they were doing a makeup competition and
they were both like, can you imagine just having to
do someone's makeup, Like that's all you have to do,
(22:12):
all you have to do. Yeah, And Tricksy was like,
if this was drag Race, it would be like and
you have to perform surgery and the patient's your mother
and you like one hour. It's just incredible what they
do and how hard they work.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I felt bad, Like when I was on drag Race
adjudged and there was where you could watch them in
their makeup room. But the mirror is like a double
mirror and they can't see you. So you're behind the mirror.
You can observe them, Wow, but you can't they And
I didn't want to be in there. I felt really
(22:49):
like scared. I was like, I don't want to I
felt bad. I mean it was part of the show,
but I was like I was really scared, Like there
was nothing about it to me that made me really terrify.
But I do love that show and I really was.
I just did something with RuPaul last week and I
was begging her to do drag Racing Korea. Drag Race
(23:10):
Philippines is so good. Yes, the fashion career would be amazing.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Someday, Like watching drag Race was my kind of It's
how I found out how much work goes into it
because in the UK, I think a lot of people's
introduction to drag was Paulo Grady, Lily Savage. Yeah, and
Lily is so it's She's just an icon in this country.
And that's basically all we had for a really long time.
(23:39):
And I had no idea the scale of it.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's huge, huge, incredible, and it's global, and it's also
now we have a generation of drag things who grew
up watching it. Yes, so this is like another level
of excellence. There's just so much happening and I appreciated
as an art form.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I know you have your residence at Joe's Pub coming
up right, I have tickets. I live in New Jersey,
so I'm coming to a show on the October twenty fifth,
Charlotte Case. That's yes, yes, yes. As soon as it
was announced, I was like.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Okay, yeah, it's gonna be good. It's going to be
really really good.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Will you bring any drag.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
There's a lot of trans shows. There's a lot of
trans performers that are doing the Margaret's Children's show. There's
something like I'm basically like my nursery, so it's my big,
beautiful Darling Baby, Children, trans Women, and My Beautiful Baby.
They Them's Yes are doing a show. So it's Sabrina
(24:44):
Woo and Nori Reid and Robin Tran are doing one
night and then Sam Oh the Gay Virgin and Dylan
Adler doing another night, and so that's my Babies, which
is really great.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I have to get more tickets.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
It's going to be great.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
That's you for the foreseeable, Emily.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yes, I will be a regular at Joe's Pub.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
So we move on to a section now Margaret called
the Story, and it's about kind of a point in
your career where you're thinking, can I be bothered to
carry on? Like? Why am I doing this kind of thing? So,
for example, this week, I'm an intimacy coordinator and I
had a production contact me and basically begged me to
(25:42):
come to set that day, even though I had loads
on and I did all the pre work. I did
it all, and I drove two hours to get there,
and then I get to the production and it's like
I don't exist, and they haven't put any time into this.
They haven't done anything that I've asked for, and it's
like they've just tick boxed it off. They've gone, oh,
(26:03):
there's an intimacy coordinator bills it. Yes, so I put
myself right out there and I can't actually do my job,
and yeah, have you had an instance in your career
where you're just like, oh, what's the point.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Well, thank you. I love intimacy coordinators. I'm so grateful
that we have them now because it's just so important.
I mean, it's like a human rights violation to not
have one, especially like with all the kind of stuff
that goes on or can go on on a film
set or TV set, whatever, the levels of uncomfortable things
(26:36):
that actors are required to do to keep our jobs.
When you guys keep us safe, which is so appreciated
and important, it's just, Oh, it's unbelievable how much better
it makes it. We're so comfortable now to do anything.
Like It's it's true like I've been. I was doing
(26:57):
a scene one time, this is like a long time ago,
was really like a young actress and the actor got
any erection in this seat and I was so scared
And it wasn't his faults, it was just that just happened.
And I was like, but it felt like traumatic to
me in the situation because I don't.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
It was.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It was just like this thing and I felt really
freaked out. And it's like that's the kind of stuff
we would do deal with on a daily basis, like
in the eighties and nineties. You just have to deal
with that. That's just something that happened.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah. See, now there's so much that we put in
place to stop that becoming a traumatic experience. I know.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Now it's like so great because we have our like
deflated rubber balls and putting.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
In sweet to make it go away, really sour sweet.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's so good to have that layer.
But I think that for me it was more one
night was actually doing a lot of that college touring,
and I was so like sleep deprived and getting up
(28:09):
in the middle of the night every day to go
to another city. And I remember like jumping up in
my hotel room, not entirely sure where I was. I
started packing my bag just assuming I was late and
getting out the door, and I realized I looked at
the clock and it was eleven PM, and I was
just like, like I was so scared because I didn't
(28:31):
even know where I was. I didn't even know what
time I had to leave, and it was like that
thing of like I can't even relax, Like I can't
even lay my head down because I'm just so scared
I'm going to miss my flight, Scared I'm going to
be late, Scared I'm going to not do that. And
it was just really I was like, what is this for?
What is this even for? And I've never come back
(28:52):
to that place mentally, I've made space in my mind
by half the heavy days in my schedule, well, I
just take some time to really look at that and
go those are the days that I need to lean
more into meditation. Those are the days that I need
to lean more into finding places where I can be
(29:12):
calm and be quiet. And if it isn't sleep, at
least it's silence, isn't it isn't totally like taking an
app then it's just like not doing anything or even
not having a conversation with another person. For me, it's
like I trying to safeguard my piece because I can
get into this place where it gets really hectic and
(29:34):
I'm like I can't even I don't know what to do. Yeah,
I've gotten to a place where it's just like why
am I doing this? Why? But those are real signs
to help you direct your thinking to a place of
peace and find wherever that peace lies, because it's there,
even though in a very busy schedule, you can still
find a breath where you can be peaceful.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah. It's so important, isn't it. It's about like having
your personal boundaries as well. I'm just discovering this from
myself off recently, just being able to kind of go, yeah,
I need this time mm hmm. It's yeah. It's an
interesting place for sure to kind of feel around it.
I think it takes people a long time to get there,
(30:16):
generally me.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
It's so good, but it's like, I love it, Hayle.
It's been waiting for me to get there for three years.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
No, I like the I like the course correction. I'm like,
let me see if it happens again this time when
I do the same things I did last time without
changing anything. Yikes. Anyway, Oh boy, Margaret, if you had
(30:49):
to put a definition on what making it means to you,
and this can be in career or in life, what
would that be.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I think making it it's just feeling good. Like I
feel good pretty much all the time, and that's really
because I'm very satisfied in my career. I'm satisfied in
my assistic life. I have a lot of fun in
my creative life, and I feed my creative life a
lot with doing lots of shows, doing a lot of writing,
(31:19):
taking on lots of different kinds of roles as an actor,
making music. So I feed my artistic life and I
feed my creative life. But I also have fun, and
I also have like a good strong sense of what
I need from the world, and whether that's silence and isolation,
like solitude, whether that's animals, whether that's friends and people
(31:41):
and hanging out and just having a good time, or
going to see movies or I'm going to see concerts
or whatever that is. I think I feel like, Oh,
making it is just feeling good, feeling happy and satisfied
in your life. And that can happen at any age,
at any stage in your career. You're making it, if
(32:01):
you're enjoying the process of doing what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Do you have any advice that you would give to
someone in a world that's so focused on awards and
numbers and things like that.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Well, art is its own reward, and to do it
and create it and be it and live. It is
as good as it gets always, you know, and that
recognition from others is an element of it. And of
course there's financial reward and accolades and all of that stuff,
but you have to remember why you do what you
(32:34):
do in the first place, and that let that be
the enjoyment. Like for me, the best feeling is writing
a joke, telling it on stage and it working, and
that is like the best feeling. And so I'm always
chasing that. I'm addicted to that feeling, and that feeling
has very little to do with maybe posting that online
and how many views it gets or how many how
(32:55):
if it goes viral or whatever that could happen. But
I don't chase that. What I'm chasing is the feeling
that I felt when I wrote it and then put
it up there and people responded. So I think it's
about realizing why you do what you do. You're doing
this for accolades and for views and for the gram
and all that stuff. That's all good, but it may
(33:18):
not be as rewarding to you in the end because
that stuff is so imprecise. It's so hard to navigate
what's actually going to get you. That if you're really
looking for that, and that is the joy that you're getting,
is that the sort of accolades. Then you have to
keep on producing and keep on keep on putting stuff
(33:38):
into feeding the algorithms so that it comes your way,
because inevitably it will keep on feeding it. It can
take a long time. The people in the industry that
I have known who are really successful are not the
most famous or the like, not the most beautiful.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Like.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
The people who are successful are the people who just
keep doing it and keep plugging away and keep on
working and keep on feeding it, and they will eventually
achieve it whatever they're looking for or something better. But
it's interesting, like people get very frustrated with it. And
show business also changes so much. There may be a
(34:17):
time where we don't have the algorithm totally. We don't
have it before, right, that's relatively new in the past
decade or so. We didn't have that before. So in
maybe a few years we may not have that system
and maybe a whole new system that we're confronting. So
(34:38):
the resiliency of the artist to really make it is
to find the simple thing of what is it that
makes makes you feel the best about doing your art
and Chase.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
That I love that. Yeah. Same. Have you ever been
tempted to change the way you do things to kind
of fit those algorithms and such like?
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, well I think like, yes, know, like I think, oh,
that would be cool if I could be Like sometimes
I see some of these people who are like famous
for calling people out. Oh, like you know, they get
they get really like indignant about some kind of issue
(35:17):
and they call people. I really like the I like
those creators. I think they're brave and I think that
they're really unique. It's right like heroic to do what
they do. But then then it gets dismantled because people
go into their past and they're like, wait, you said
this and then you you were got married on a
plantation like that kind of sound like it. It becomes
(35:39):
like this whole messy Oh that's so funny because we
want to present ourselves at these faultless beings, but it's
impossible because the Internet is forever and so you're always
presented with the worst versions of yourself. And so yeah,
I also thought, like I have these gross fantasies of
(36:00):
if I became like a right wing like sup like
a super right wing, like all right, and then it
freaks me. I'm like, get so scared, like a political
commentator that was super left wing and then you turned
right wing? Like that would be and I get sick
thinkt about it. But wouldn't that be kind of amazing?
But so I I want to die when I think
(36:20):
about it, But like, like, oh, what if I did.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
That all for the algorithm? Do you think with because
we obviously had a streaming boom where streaming kind of happened,
you know, a handful of years ago, and then it
was like a million shows and now it's like kind
of settling. I actually saw this thing recently where it
was like some bundle of so many different streaming services,
(36:46):
and someone commented and was like, isn't this cable? Do
you think do you think that? Yeah, it's like we
always end up back where we started. Do you think
that'll be something that shifts how people have to create?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Once?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Again? I think so?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I think it's always going to change. Yeah, everything is
always changing, and that's what's so great about it. But
then also everything kind of remains the same because like
the way that I go about things and the way
that I go about my business, like sitting down writing
a joke telling it that night, tell seeing what that's
always going to be the same, so that that.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah yeah, and you're yeah yeah. I guess the
people who are doing it for Instagram would be the
ones with the problems, not the people who are doing
it because they love yeah, or.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
If they're doing it for Instagram, it's just going to
change to whatever other platform because we as human beings
need to connect, right, so we'll be connecting on a
different level whatever that medium becomes. I don't know what
the next change will be with technology will bring us,
but there'll be something.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
I miss my Space.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
I love my Space. I know all those weird like
animations that would make your computer crash, have a good week,
and then it would be like these things that are
like angel fire everything with that, let's bring that back.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You could have really like Gordie color schemes, and you'd
like top your top people you liked and all the
people that you fancied.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yes, it was really I I like my I was
never really on my Space that much because I didn't
really even have a computer till later, so and I
didn't even have a phone till much later. So I'm
a little relative newcomer to any of nice.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, that's a good place to be because it's just
all ridiculous anyway.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, if I didn't get lost so much, I would
just have one of those phones with two buttons.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
But I need my GPS same.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I used to be really good with a map before
Google Maps and made me dumb. It's made me dumb.
Our last section is called your chapter type. So we're
(39:01):
hoping at some point at with Emily, we're hoping to
make all of these episodes into a little mini book
and each guest is going to have a chapter title.
So if you could think of a chapter title that
sums up your career journey so far, what would it be?
Speaker 3 (39:18):
The ever evolving adventure?
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Oh you're like that. Yeah that's great. Yeah that was
very concise and beautiful.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, because it is. It's always changing.
It's an adventure, but it's always evolving into something else.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Is there anything you hope comes in the future that
you haven't done yet?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I don't know, Like, I mean, I have an album
of music coming out in November ish, and I want
the experience of maybe playing more live music and a
load larger fashion. I played a lot of live music
in clubs in a little bit in adendum to my
stand comedy. But yeah, I'd love to do a little
bit more so we'll see cool.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Are we going for an arena to all? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
One of my favorite parts of seeing shows at Largo
was that it was a mix of comedy and often
music too, which I'd never seen them combined before.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yeah. I love it. I love Largo and it's my
I have a monthly show there, so I'll do a
show there this weekend, and it's for me. It's a
really important place. It's a place that I will always form.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, it's a it's a really cool venue. I was
glad that COVID didn't make it go away.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
So yeah, well this was This was wonderful. This has
been like a highlight for me. So thank you so
much for being on and for being wonderful. And I'm
very excited to see the show in October. Slash yeah
for how long you're there.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
How to Make It is recorded from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley Murleidarn For more adventures
with Emily and Haley, follow us on Instagram at how
to Make It Podcast, where you'll find clips from today's episode,
(41:23):
many episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like and subscribe
to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever other
fine podcasts are found.
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