May 12, 2025 • 59 mins
Actor Michael Chernus joins Emily & Haley to discuss what he learned from performing the Severance audiobook, his Rom-Com meet-cute with his wife, and his upcoming true crime series. Emily attempts to start several businesses with Michael, Haley reveals how you can tell when you're working with a theater actor, and we dig into 'Orange is the New Black,' 'Patriot,' and 'Spiderman.' So put on your leather jacket, drink a smoothie, and experience spiritual ADD as you listen to Chapter 24 of the 'How To Make It' guide.
Our full interview with Michael is available to watch on our YouTube channel: @HowToMakeItPodcast
Follow us on Instagram: @HowToMakeItPodcast
Our full interview with Michael is available to watch on our YouTube channel: @HowToMakeItPodcast
Follow us on Instagram: @HowToMakeItPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
May that made us sound so much more serious than
we actually are?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Should we switch rolls on this this time? Okay?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
See that's the intro.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Hi, my name is Michael Chernis, and I wanted to
be a fireman when I grew up, just like many
many little children. Classic. Yeah, and then I moved into
wanting to be the Scarecrow and a Wizard of Oz.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Hey, I wanted to be Dorothy, so.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I wanted to be the Lion.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Oh right, we've got three quarters of a squad going here.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Okay, this could have been the cast of Wicked. What happened?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I all went to terrible shit? No lion here?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
When did you first want to be an actor?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
The first moment that I was on stage, which was
in a school play. I was in the eighth grade
and it was a stage adaptation of the Hobbit, and
I played Gandolf the Wizard, and it was like a
true just a school play, like in a gymnasium. But
(01:44):
I was hooked, and yeah, it felt like I was,
you know, starring on Broadway. And so I just knew.
I don't know that I knew that I wanted to
be a professional actor even knew really how one would
do that, but I just knew I wanted to keep
doing it. And I loved being on stage and I
loved working on a play. Whatever that meant to me
(02:07):
as like a thirteen year old kid, just I think
it was mostly probably unconscious, yeah process at that point.
But and the social aspect of it was a big
deal for me. And I'm sure a lot of actors
and theater folks, writers, directors maybe feel like misfits in
a normal society. And I didn't like play sports or
(02:31):
anything as a kid, so I kind of found my
tribe or my social clique when I discovered theater. And
so for me, that was a large part of it
was just making friends and girls. And I was also
I guess even then I had some kind of like
knack for it on some level, and so getting that
(02:54):
attention too, being in the spotlight, Yeah, and then it
eventually grew into wanting to pursue it as a as
a life, as a career.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
That's great. I think it's those early like school plays,
where you realize whether that kind of adrenaline is pleasurable
or terrifying.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah both, yeah, right or both? Yeah? Yeah. It kind
of separates the weed from the cheff.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah did you go to Julias? Did I read that correctly?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I did?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, Yeah, I know that's kind of a big deal.
I'm not my Oh, yeah, that's true. I don't know
about the American drama school scene. I know a lot
about the UK drama school scene. I know Julia's a thing.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
It's a big deal. But yeah, when you said you've
discovered you had a knack for it, I was like, yeah,
getting into juilliardist this figure is a big deal.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah exactly, Yeah, I mean it was, it was.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It is a big deal, and it was certainly an
incredible experience going there, and I learned a ton, but
it's also like any place has its and I went
a long long time ago. I think barely any of
the teachers I had are even still there. But also
had its flaws, and it's the actual experience of it
(04:10):
isn't as maybe like mystical and amazing as it sounds
like it would be. But partly how I came to
apply for Juilliard was so I did that school play
in the eighth grade, and then I was so interested
in theater that I had my mom enroll me at
children's theater classes at this great children's theater school in Cleveland, Ohio,
(04:31):
where I grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland, and
it's kids from all over the greater Cleveland area northeast Ohio,
so it wasn't just kids from my high school. And
they approach teaching kids acting pretty seriously, and although it's
a lot of it was a lot of children's theater then.
So I did like Hansel and Gretel, and I also
wonder Landing whatever. And there was this guy who was
(04:54):
a couple of years older than me who got into
Juilliard when he graduated high school, and he would come
back in the summers and teach at this children's theater
in Cleveland, and I just thought he was the coolest guy,
Like he was handsome, kind of was like a young
Daniel day Lewis, like dark black hair, and he wore
like I'm probably imagining this because it was in the summer,
(05:15):
but I feel like he had like a leather jacket
on and was like smoking cigarettes. And when he would
do this summer session with us, he would teach us
like Eugene O. Neil plays and David Mammett plays and
Sam Shephard and and I was like, what is this
isn't this isn't sleeping beauty. This is crazy. And so
it was sort of two parts, like I wanted to
go to Juilliard and move to New York because I
(05:36):
just admired this older guy so much and he was
sort of like my role model. And then also he
made it kind of attainable, like it I think if
I hadn't had him in my life, I would have
been intimidated or freaked out. But I was like, oh,
other people from the subject of Cleveland, Ohio Julliard I could. Yeah.
His name is Michael Tisdale. He's great after a great writer.
(05:59):
So I oh a lot to him.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Do you still stay in such I do?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah, yeah I do.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
You should ask if he actually had a leather jacket
or if that.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Was all I should I should? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we move into a section where we
each tell you just a random fact about you and
my oh oh boy.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Oh boy, wondering what you know about.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well, my mind is going to be the same that
it was a couple episodes ago, in that you are
technically now an audio book uh performer as well, and listen,
I certainly learned a lot from listening to that audio book.
I mean, the I'm now going to always refer to
(06:49):
hiking as advanced walking, and yeah, and the the that
he hates sister act and uh, the amount of s
A T words that were in that whole thing. I'm
wondering how much you learned. And then we're like, wait,
what about it as you were performing that and how
different it was between like performing on TV versus in
(07:13):
a booth.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That's a great question. It's so hard to do an audiobook.
It's so exhausting, Like it was a long, full day
and my voice was wrecked, and it's sort of like
art imitating life or vice versa. Like in the last
episode of season one and sevens when Ricken's voice starts
giving out, I was like, oh my god, I'm starting
(07:36):
to warble in the same way. It was really difficult
and even though I'm reading it not as a typical
audiobook narrator, I'm reading it in a character voice that
I've played, there was still a lot of You're doing
too much, your your p's and t's, all your plosives
are popping, and I just felt like I had to
like have this restraint with it that I wasn't anticipating
(07:57):
and it's it's just taxing. And then yeah, I had
to look up a ton of stuff. Jane Erickson, who
created Severance and is our main writer. He's just so
smart and has an encyclopedic knowledge of all things, and
so yeah, there were so many references. I was like,
I don't know who that is or what that is,
but I have to sound like I know what that is. Yeah,
so Rick, Rick stop me, Rickon, stop me.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Some things it was.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I mean, I could see you being exhausted just by
the amount of word, like the big word. I was like,
because I love self help books, I was taking walk
this morning listening to a self help book and so
my brain got along. I was listening Oh God, They'll
let them by Mel Robbins. I was like switching between
(08:40):
Colin Haley and being like, I need your advice. To
like listening to Mel Robins, but I.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Her daughter is a pop singer and I saw her
play at Carnegie Hall as part of this larger event.
What yeah, my friend.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Now we move on to interesting facts about Mel Robbins.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
She let her kids go be a musicians, which is
a worse choice than even letting them be actors.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So that is true. Yeah, because I was listening to
your audio book and my brain was getting confused because
I would be like, okay, like here's a train, I'm
like on this train of thought and then it would
like just divert into sister act and I'd be like wait,
and then I'd be like wait, I don't think I'm
supposed to actually be taking anything away from this.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Where are you? Yeah, Ricken has a bit of spiritual
a d D. It's kind of all over the place. Yeah,
would be part of the incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Spiritual ad D is going to be something I use.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Absolutely. My slightly surprising facts is that you met your
wife on a farm.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
True.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Sorry, tell me about the farm.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
My wife. Yeah. My wife, whose name is Emily, is
an incredible human being. But she founded a arts nonprofit
years ago which was part artist residency program and part
working organic farm housed on a farm that's been an
(10:22):
organic farm since the creation of organic certification, and it's
been in the same family since the seventeen hundreds. In
upstate New York, and Emily created this organization called Space
on Rider Farm, which over the years ended up supporting
thousands of artists and they would come and stay on
the farm for one to five weeks and be abul
to apply with a project, whether it be a play
(10:43):
or a film, or a dance piece or a visual
art a visual artist with their work, and they would
live on the farm and work on their projects and
they would get three farm fresh meals a day. An
incredible organization that sadly has since shuddered. But my years ago,
my friend Max Posner, who's a playwright, was in residence
(11:03):
and he was working on a play and the end
of his time at the farm was going to be
a stage reading in the barn of this play that
he was working on. He asked me to be in it,
and I was also single at the time, and Max
was trying to like be a matchmaker, and so he
was there for a number of days on the farm
before I arrived, and he was sending me these emails
being like, dude, this place is awesome. That's totally up
(11:24):
your alley. It's this like groovy organic farm. Also, the
woman who runs this place is amazing and she's singing,
and I was like, chill, chill, we'll see, we'll see
when I get up there, and unbeknownst to me, he
was doing the same thing. Emily being like, my buddy
Chernis is coming up. Great guy, great actor, single, and
she was like, I'll be open to it as long
as you're not weird, Like this is my place of work,
(11:46):
so don't don't be obvious about it. Right. So I
pull up to the farm and he comes bounding out
of this seventeen hundreds farmhouse and he's like, welcome home, Michael, welcome.
And we go on this tour of the farm with
other people and there's a flock of sheep and he
calls out to the sheep and he's like, look, it's papa.
Papa has returned and just makes it as effing weird
(12:07):
as possible. And so Emily and I don't talk that
entire day because she's totally freaked out. And at work
she's like the boss there, and so there's there's really
kind of no vibe or anything. And they go back
to the city and I write her an email mostly
just to say like, thank you. What you're doing at
the farm is incredible. I was so happy to be there. Also,
if you were ever in the city, I'd love to
(12:29):
take you out for dinner coffee, because I was living
in la for a while right before that. I was like,
or a smoothie, which is so, well, what.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Year was it, because that would have come off really cool.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
It was twenty thirteen, so Smoothie's were a little cooler than.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
They Yeah, thanks for that park it.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, And so luckily she was like, I'm going to
be in the city on Thursday, and I'd loved to
go to dinner, and I quickly googled Farm to Table
Restaurant Brooklyn and then I was and then I lied
and I was like, what about this place Buttermilk Channel
that I love and go to all the time, and
she was like, oh, yeah, I know that place. That's great.
And so that was our first date, which was September
(13:12):
twenty sixth, twenty thirteen, and then we were married September
twenty six, twenty fifteen, in the backyard of that farmhouse
and my playwright friend Max Posner, who made it weird
was our Rabbi Shaman reverend ordained online minister. So yeah,
that's the whole.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Wow, love exists, you guys.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
There is to see Emily you need hopefully for me
yet yeah, you need a friend like that who can
bring you a good match rather than May who brings
you really emotionally unavailable people.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's mad you got kind of Max, you.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Know, yes, yes, yes, maybe that's.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Bailey's a great podcasting partner, a bad matchmaker.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I'm terrible at.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
This, terrible. I think here's here's my idea, guys, we
should go on Shark Tank instead of dating apps. What
about a wing man app?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Your wing man great idea. Let's let's after we off
this call, let's start.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It's like, okay, I have a lot of ideas wraps,
mostly involving how to get around YouTube being just way
too sensitive.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
But how many how many have come to fruition.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Zero because I can't.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Develop well, So I have a lot of both. For
our wing man app, this is go great.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I think it's a real.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, it's a real you know, find your wings That's
that's what is our slogan, all right, I'm great at
making up ideas. I already know what I'm gonna wear
to the launch like all that, and then just it's
never gonna cool. All right, Great, I'm going to take
(14:57):
our sharp turn and I'm turning car around. I wanted
to talk to you about playing John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Sure that's a natural segment.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Well, I I we laughing about that because there's no
other way. There's no other ways. Yeah, it's like, haha.
I have a fascination with true True, Like I just
I listened to the podcast all the time. I have
a book that I recently got about like the most
famous serial killers in America. I'm wondering how you deal
(15:30):
with playing a character like that, because I even sometimes
when I'm listening to these things, like and I'm not
even looking at anything or watching anything, I need to
like cleanse and not listen because my mood just drastically shifts,
And I'm wondering how you kind of prepare and get
in and out of being able to do that.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, it was really tough, and I don't think I
realized how hard it was and so out of it.
So for everybody who's listening who doesn't know, this is
an upcoming eight part limited series for Peacock called Devil
in Disgui's Gentlemen Gacy, and we made it in Toronto
(16:15):
last like September through March, and so I'm pretty freshly
out of it. And so first of all, I did
a ton of research, and there's a lot of material
out there. There are lots of books and documentaries and
YouTube videos and podcasts, and some were, you know, obviously
(16:39):
way more useful than others. But I really wanted to
kind of be exhaustive about it and make sure that I,
you know, learned everything that I could not out of
a more a bit fascination, but out of a respect
for the gravity of the material and the respect for
the victims and the victims families. How I went about it,
(17:00):
I mean, there were lots of technical ways I tried
to find a way into the character, But in terms
of like protecting myself spiritually, I would say that one
of the big things was, in my opinion, he was
so disconnected from what he was doing. He was so dissociated,
and that in a way he wasn't emotionally affected by it.
(17:20):
And I mean that to sound as harsh as it is,
because he was an awful human.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Being, like he'd take a sociopath.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, he didn't care about these people, And so in
a odd way, the being of him wasn't the difficult part.
It was like after we wrapped for the night or whatever,
then like taking in what just happened or what I
just shot. But like the other actors I think had
the much harder time on set, like the great actress
(17:48):
Marie in Ireland. It was an old friend of mine.
She plays Elizabeth Peaste, who was the mother of Casey's
last known victim, Rob Pieste, And every time she's on
camera she's crying or screaming, freaking out out about finding
her son and then processing the fact that her son
was murdered and her son's body was found. And for me,
I'm looking back at it, I was like, that's a
(18:10):
much harder job. Actually, you're showing up and having to
be raw and vulnerable every day. My job was to
like be not vulnerable and disconnect from what I was doing.
So in some weird way, that protected me. And then
the other thing was my family moved with me to Toronto.
So luckily my wife family was able to come and
we have a two year old daughter, and our dog Murray,
(18:33):
and we rented like a place that we could be
a family in, and we fell in love with Toronto.
And so every day that i'd come home shooting, I'd
have my people, and I'd have my beautiful daughter and
my ridiculous fluffy dog and my incredible wife. And that
helped normalize it. Like I think if I was alone
in Toronto in some sad, little one bedroom corporate apartment
(18:56):
or hotel room, that could have gotten really dark really quickly.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because it's just so opposite of like
Patriot or you selling your sister's underwear and orange is
the New Black. It's really really different.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Really different. I love Patriot.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, my friend Anthony, Hi Anthony. He he's he's actually
he writes actually for for King of the Hill, so
very into, very into comedy. He was. I met him
because I was working at Warner Brothers and he wrote
for The Big Bang Theory for forty five years that
(19:38):
it was on. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, it's familiar.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
It's about jazz az.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Ar, that band. In the season finale of Severance, it
was a crossover The Big Yes and Young Sheldon was
about Tremmell as a child, you know, learning the band
and yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Anyway, Harry's amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Anyway, wait, guys, after this call, we should pitch a
show called The Big Band Theory.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Sorry, I think it'd be a better app Emily, I
think it's a better app Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Did your family come with you too? Or I don't
know how long you guys were here. I'm in New Jersey.
I'm I'm fifteen minutes away from Lumen. Did your family
come with you when you shot when you were shooting Severance?
Although I guess your daughter was not.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
My daughter was born at the beginning of season well
in the middle of season two, so my biggest concern
we're starting season two was like, what if I'm on
set or something when ye was into labor and then
the strikes happened, first the writer's strike and then the
actors strike, and so we were shut down like every
(21:01):
other show. And so my daughter was born while the
strikes were happening, and I was actually able to have
a like, you know, eight month paternity leave, which was
you know, I would joke that I had the best
strike experience of anyone, be a new dad and be
bonding with my daughter. The interesting thing about SEVENCE is
(21:22):
we shoot all over the place. So the Luman headquarters
the exteriors is Bell Labs in New Jersey, where we
just had a really great, like PR for your Consideration event.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I was there.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Oh you were there. Oh wasn't that awesome?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So I'm going to sell this really short. It was
three point thirty on Saturday. I saw a post by
Bell Works because I follow them on Instagram, and it
was like, there might be a surprise, and I was like,
they're either going to be like giving out free pencils
or the entire cast of the show is going to
be there. I was like, there's no in between. So
(22:01):
I jumped in my car and I was there by
four point thirty and I stood in the standing room
section until seven you guys started, and it was Yeah,
it was unbelievable. It was like, I can't believe this
is happening. And I wouldn't have known about it if
(22:21):
I hadn't been like known enough about the industry to
be like I just have to go.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
So I'm so glad you did. It was such a
cool event.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Was amazing. So yeah, so that's where the Luman headquarters is.
But then like so Ricken and Devon's house is in Pleasantville,
New York, in this amazing development called Usonia, which has
three original Frank Lord Wright houses and then the rest
of the houses were designed by Lloyd Wright disciples and
a lot of the other like Mark Mark sad little
(22:54):
kind of apartment. Yeah complex that's in I think Nayak,
New York. So we're kind of all over. So I've
actually never shot in New Jersey. I've always shown. Yeah,
I'm mostly at Ricken and Devin's house, which is.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
In right true, why would you be at Why would
you be at? God, Emily, why would I not? Oh God,
I'm disappointed in myself.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Come on, you're not thinking about the minutia of how
we shoot the.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Supervisor Listen, you listen. I think I would. I should
know that you've never Why would you be Why would
you be there? Listen? If next season you end up
going to Belwarks, let me know. I know a great
sub sandwich.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Great great Jersey you know Jersey, Yeah, Jersey sandwiches are great.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Sandwiches, bagels, It's it is a beautiful, Well, you were there,
It's a beautiful, beautiful building.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
It's incredible, it's actually yeah, yeah, Yeah. No. So one
of the many, many, many joys of that show is
I get to be at home. Especially we shot season
one during like some of the darkest days of the
early COVID pandemic, So it was such a I would
have taken that job if it was anywhere, but the
(24:10):
fact that it was at home and I didn't have
to travel just made it so much better.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, that just never happens, does it.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
No, No, Usually, the life of the actor is like
Murphy's law, like whatever can go wrong will go wrong,
and like you know, like yeah, and for me with
this job, everything is like gone right my daughter being
born during the strikes and yeah, we'll be safe at
home during the pandemic. It was It's been a real
gift in more ways than just an artistic or career gift.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, what kind of draws you to a role? Because like,
when I look at everything you've done, it's been incredibly diverse,
Like even within your stay to work, when you read
a script, what is it that makes you go, Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I'm lucky enough now to be in a place where
I can make that choice. I mean, it would say
years ago, I would say yes because it was being
offered to be and there was a chance to be
an actor and be paid or not paid to be
an actor. But now that I'm in this sort of
very lucky, blessed position to be a little choosy, it's
(25:14):
sort of an undefinable thing. It's just like there's just
sort of like with Rick, and I'm just like, he's
just so singular, Like I've never read a character like him.
He's so odd and so ridiculous and grandiose, and yet
has this kind of vulnerability and softness and and I
think like with even though his book is so ridiculous,
(25:38):
there is there is sometimes like a wisdom in there,
buried in there. And so I love the right and
I love the challenge of being like that. You can't
I don't want to play this guy as a total joke, Like, yeah,
there is a joke there, there's an inherent joke in
the writing. He's not like a super serious character. It's
he's there for some levity and buffoonery. But I also
(26:01):
like want to make him full and whole and organic
and like as complicated as any other person on this
planet and full of possibilities and dimension. And so with him,
it was it was just his unique voice and some
of the phrases that he uses, and yeah, and just
(26:21):
the things he does, like having a no dinner dinner party,
or having a child developed through the years in three
different beds, or hanging the kelp when a child is born,
or all these different things that just felt totally made
up but also totally realistic when you picture some kind
of crunchy yet intellectual, maybe rich, annoying person. Yeah, I
(26:44):
mean it's just like, yeah, I don't know that there's
any history of like having a child sleep in three
different beds in the same room, but it feels like
totally believable. That's someone.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
So it is there. There is I can't remember what
it was called. I watch the episodes and then I
go on YOUTE when I listen for hours of people
talking about I'm one of those people. And someone actually
did research on the bed thing, and it is something
that people do.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
But there isn't like a race card bed. Oh then
you move into like an actual adult bed.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
No, No, I don't think so, I don't think so, Yeah,
that would be cool. I would like a race.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Card I mean i'd like one.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Now, yeah, there's our third product.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
But yeah, I think there's a whole equation of choosing
a project. For me, it's about the character, but then
there's other things like is the larger piece the player,
the movie or the TV show, like saying something that
I'm interested or believe in, or discussing some kind of
issue whether it's current or just sort of historic or
universal about being a human being that I'm interested in.
(27:46):
Are there people that I really am dying to work with,
whether it's a director, writer, other actors. Is it in
a location that would be really interesting to go visit
or spend time in? And then obviously the other lifeboxes
like is it actually a good experience, a good was
it a bonus financially to my life? Is it a
(28:07):
it would be helpful to my career? That sounds but
it's a business decision as well.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Oh yeah, totally it is.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
But I feel like if you make things, if that's
your leading edge, like you just an interesting career at.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
The end of the day.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, do you have a time in your career that,
if you've listened, we have a section that is called
the story, and it's meant to be a time in
(28:46):
your career where you were doing a task or in
a position or sometime at work or on your way
to the career you wanted where you're just you kind
of have an out of body moment where you're like,
what the heck am I doing? Yeah, industry to begin with.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about this. So the beginning
of my career, I was mostly doing theater. I mean,
I was only doing theater. And that's, as I said,
what I've loved from like an early age, and it's
what I trained to do at Juilliard. The training is
I wouldn't even say primarily, it's almost exclusively a training
for the stage, and really, especially when I went there,
(29:23):
training for the classical theater, Shakespeare and Moliere and Chekhov,
and I was lucky enough to know a lot of
young playwrights when I was at school. There's also a
great playwriting program at Julliard, so a lot of my
friends were writers. And when I got out of school,
a lot of the work I was doing was partly
because no one was asking me to do film and television,
(29:44):
and I wasn't booking any jobs through auditions. People were
casting me in plays and sometimes off off Broadway, like
in a storefront, for like no money or very little money.
Eventually I started to claw my way into the New
York theater world, and I was eventual by two thousand
and seven two thousand and eight, I was doing really
(30:04):
great new plays and interesting new plays by great writers
at very good Off Broadway theaters. And I had this
season from the fall of two thousand and seven to
the spring in two thousand and eight where I was
in four Off Broadway plays back to back to back,
and I was like rehearsing one play while doing another
play at night, and I was exhausted. But I was
just being used up as an actor in the best way.
(30:27):
I mean I used that like not being used in
a gross way, but just like all of my faculties
and energy and creativity and imagination were just totally on
fire and being put to use. And it was in
some ways the artistically the happiest I've ever been. And
(30:48):
I was practically bankrupt, like I just even doing two
plays at the same time, You're just not making enough
to survive the theater. And so I had this out
of body sort of epiphany of like, if this is
not the pinnacle of my theater career, but this is
like kind of having arrived, and I could obviously go
(31:09):
on to do Broadway where it's much more lucrative, but like,
if this is like a moment of being like an
established New York theater actor, I need to really think
seriously about my life choices here. And I was young
enough that I was like, I could pivot, but I
don't really know how to do anything else. I mean,
one of the drawbacks that's going to Julia, Yeah, I
(31:30):
ain't gonna be a plumber now, and I ain't gonna
be a banker, and I ain't I'm not gonna be anything.
I'm not gonna Yeah, no, I'm not gonna be a
fireman or the scarecrow. And so I decided that I
was going to take a year where I was gonna
say no to pretty much any theater offer or audition
(31:53):
that came in unless it was something huge that I
couldn't say no to in order to be available to
film and TV. Because one of the things that was
happening was I was in these theater productions that I
really cared about, with artists that I cared about and
I had made a commitment to, and some who had
written roles for me, and I couldn't then be like Oh, hey,
(32:13):
I just booked an episode of Line Order. I don't
have to drop out of the player. I have to
go to Memphis to shoot this indie. So I was
just never available for filming.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Ser This is what happens. This is what happens. People
get stuck in theater that way, don't they.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
You can, yeah, because the work is so incredible, Like
I love being on camera that the work is also
very engaging. It's not that one is better than the other,
but that high of being on stage, that communication with
the audience. Yeah, it's unlike anything else on the planet.
And the more you're in the theater, the more it's
(32:49):
a small community at the end of the day. And
so the more people know you and they're starting to
make work for you. And I think I could have
very happily just stayed in the theater world exclusively, but
I couldn't have lived so anyway. I took this year
where I was like, I'm just gonna not do plays,
and I started to claw my way into doing I
did some films that you're nothing major in terms of roles,
(33:09):
but in some big films, it's a long game, right,
It's a long career. It's a long life. And so
in that year I met some filmmakers and people who
I've gone on to work with a bunch of times
in larger capacities. So it was all worth it in
planting seeds. But like, during that year off from the theater,
I was also like, ah shit, I made a total
(33:30):
mistake because I'm not. It wasn't like I immediately then
booked a pilot and moved to la and was making
a bunch of money. There is a kind of starting over.
It's the same sort of career, but you're meeting all
kinds of different casting directors. Your most film and TV
directors aren't familiar with your off Broadway credits, so it
doesn't like it's not like that transfers over into the
(33:52):
other medium. And yeah, so that's my for the story section.
I think there was this year where I took a
gamble on myself and said I'm going to leave this
thing where I'm having success and make sort of this
like odd choice, this that doesn't feel like the instinctual choice.
You've got a bird in the hand here with this
theater career.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, yeah, it's a brave decision. It's an incredibly brave decision.
Because you were like award winning, like yeah, wait, usually successful.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, I was very I had a very I'm talking
about like it's over. I mean I would love to
do Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Was gonna say.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
I was like, yeah, but yeah, I want to obi
for this beautiful play called in the Wake at the
Public Theater. And I was lucky enough to work with
some incredible playwrights. I was in the world premiere of
a play called The Aliens by Anny Baker.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, I've had extraordinary theater experiences. I worked a lot
with the director Sam Gold, who was a big Broadway
director now. But you know, there's also an element of
I think I just realized the lifestyle is maybe I
wasn't cut out to be a theater person exclusively the
eight shows a week. It's the hardest thing in the work. Yeah,
(35:04):
it's it's so taxing, and and as you get older,
the toll it takes on your body. And yeah, and
I also knew I really wanted to have a family
and now that I have a child, and like, how
how I mean, obviously plenty of people do it, but
right now and like she's too and I'm like some
days it's like how am I going to take a
shower today. Yeah. Getting it together to talk to you
(35:24):
guys in this podcast was like a feet you know, Yeah,
I'm amazing. I'm just a dad who.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
In the living room on the street. Destructions are like,
I'm do not come in this room. You don't move.
I've set them up with stuff to do. You do
not move from that space. The trick is it.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I just saw I was thinking about the eight shows
thing because I just saw Death Becomes Her last weekend
on Broadway, and I was so exhausted by the time
they were finished, and I was just obviously sitting. I
was like, I cannot imagine doing this. I just don't know.
It boggles the mind. So I feel like I would
(36:08):
I would fail in that regard. I do two shows
and I'd be like, I think they got it.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, I think we did it.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
That was good, good work everyone.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I think you know one sets with cast and crew,
the people who have come from theater backgrounds because they
moan a lot less because they're used to being exhausted
in theaters.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
And it is true. Yeah. Someone told me once that
you know a theater actor because at the end of
the day they hang up their costume in the trailer.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Oh God, that's so true.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, there's a kind of you know, I mean this
in the best way, but there's there is kind of
a blue collar attitude to to a theater worker. You know,
it's it's a it's a craft, right, it's a tree
and it's something that you learn and you apprentice for
and it's not something that's handed to you. And it
(37:07):
takes a village to make it. So you know, when
you're backstage with the stage hands and everyone, you realize
how it's a family affair and how symbiotic it is
and we all need each other and so I think
we all bring that to them the set and it's like,
you know, the respect for the crew is so huge
for me and my work ethic, like getting to know
(37:27):
the crew and really know this, especially on Deviling Disguise
when we're making this thing about John Gaycy, but affected
all of us. Like everyone was worried about me, but
I was worried about the camera folks who were having
to watch every second of this through the.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Lens hugeally activating hugely.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah, or the costume department was having to do all
this research about and see all these photos, these these
photos of these bodies or the crime scene. Everyone's in
it together. And that's the thing that folks at home
don't see. It's like all the people who don't get
the credit that the actors get or the directors get.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Yeah, what is your definition of making it?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
How we how would you define that within your career
all your life in general?
Speaker 3 (38:20):
You know, I feel that I've made it because I
do what I love to do, and I am generally
comfortable in my life, and I feel challenged by the
material I work on, and I I'm inspired by the
people I work with. That sounds kind of corny, but
(38:43):
there's always more to like go for in all those
regards I was talking about, Like there's more challenges artistically,
like playing John Gacy's a kind of character I've never
played before, So like getting to do that was a
new artistic life level of uh exploration. But like and
(39:03):
then there's obviously like all the outside stuff and returning
about like there's new career levels and uh, there's new
financial levels. But like making it, I don't know, for me,
it's about just being able to worry a little bit less,
Like it's never guaranteed and it's such a fickle business
and uh, but just being able to feel like, Okay,
(39:24):
I'm here, you know, like I'm an actor. I'm doing this.
It's my job, it's my only job. Yeah, you know.
I think there's a difference people talk about like making it.
There's a difference between a arriving and then like making it.
Like I feel like there's a moment where you're like, Okay,
oh wow, I'm here, like I'm actually in the room
(39:44):
where it happens like I'm and that's different for every actor.
But I'm on a set of a big TV show,
or I'm a I'm in a I'm in a Broadway play,
or I'm whatever it is, you know, I'm I got
a you know, a contract a tour of a musical
and uh. And so you've you've arrived in that moment
of like your first big job, and you're like you
(40:06):
really self identify as a as a professional actor. And
and then there's this point I think where you've been
doing it for a while and you've recrued some hours
and some experience and you and you start to have
a reputation and people know your work and I'm still surprised,
Like you brought up Patriot and for a number of reasons.
(40:26):
A lot of people didn't see that show. But sometimes
you feel like you make these things in a vacuum
and like nobody. And I'm still shocked when people know
my work.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Because you're so funny in it.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Oh thanks, it's not a it's not that's not a
I'm not talking about like whether I'm good on it
or not. It's just like I'm still I'm still surprised
that people know anything. I do, you know what I mean?
Oh yeah, it's still obviously I know that Severance is
like an international hit, but like it's it's still and
I hope I never lose this. I'm still just like
I'm still like a little kid, like being like, oh wow,
(40:59):
you watch that? You saw that? Like that's crazy And
so I don't know, I think this is such a
long not.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Sustainty carry on, No, it's great.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, I think making it for me is being able
to make choices in my career not out of necessity
but out of interest. Being able to choose the projects
I want because they're interesting to me, now because I
need the money or the credit.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah that is a good one.
It's a sinker.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I like that I like the for for a second
when you were talking about arriving versus making it, I
felt like I was listening to the audiobook good Way.
I was like, oh, like i'm learning something anyway.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, I definitely knew you before severing. Yeah, you're recognizable
like from Dead Ringers. It's like when you're recognizable like that,
like that's a cool place to be, right, isn't that?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Well? Yeah, and it's a great sweet spot right now
in terms of just my private life, because I feel
like people know my face but they don't know why.
And sometimes they know I'm an actor and they can't
place it. But sometimes they'll be like, hey, did you
go to high school with my sister?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Or like I used to them all the time in
LA and the grocery store, I'd be like, you're either
super famous or you live near me.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I right, And especially when you live in like New
York or LA or Chicago, it's like it could be
either one. And I used to drive my wife crazy
because we'd be on the subway and someone be staring
at me and then they'd be I know you, and
I'd be like maybe how and she'd like Jesus Christ
and they'd be like did you go to like where
did you go to college? And I'd be like, well,
(42:47):
I went to Juilliard, but like, and she would just
say that you're an actor and you're on a TV
show and I'm like and so she would she was
encouraging me to like just own it for and just
be like, I'm an actor. I'm an actor, you know.
And so I was at a bar and he or
a couple of years ago, and the bartender was like, hey, man,
I know you. And I was like, yeah, I'm an
actor and he was like, no, I'm from Cleveland. I
(43:10):
used to play in bands with your brother. And I
was like, oh yeah, hey dude, And like two seconds later,
two minutes later, I get a text from my brother
like hey, hotshot heard you're trying to be a big
Hollywood actor at a bar. Huh. Yeah. So I got
burned on that one.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So, you know, Michael, I went out with a guy
who was on one thing, oh my god, ten years ago,
like twelve years ago, like and uh, he was late
to our entire day, like it was like a full
day of things. And it because he kept thinking people
(43:49):
were recognizing him and they weren't. And so you'd have
to someone explain where he knew where they might know
him from. Oh no, so guys, this is why we
need the app.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yeah, we need the app.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah no, but it was so it was and I
saw it happen once because I was like, I gotta
get on the subway, like I'm gonna miss the fairy.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
And he would just like give them his resume of like.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
We were like walking by a group and they were
like hey man, and he'd be like, hey, let me
tell you where you might know me from.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
And they were just like, hey, no, your shoe is untied. Man,
I was just trying to help you. No, I didn't
see you on n CLS.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah I resacted. Yeah I didn't set that one up.
No you didn't.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
I could.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
That was my fault. But it's just yeah, so there's
a I feel like there's a middle probably.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
There's there's totally a middle ground. But yeah, but you
can't get me. Yeah, no to your original point, Like, no,
I I it is a sweet spot of like I
feel like I can be anonymous ish and not you know,
because like I've worked with a lot of super famous
people and there are obviously a ton of benefits that
go along with being super famous, but there really are
(45:00):
some very bad sides of it. We're like, you can't
go anywhere normal, you know, Like this is an extreme example,
but I did Captain Phelps with Tom Hanks, who is
the nicest, greatest person on the planet first of all,
and when anyone ever says anything bad about him, I
just want to kill them because he's Tom.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Hanks is like, we've got it on the record now.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
But we shot this movie and like he can't go
to dinner or like go out to the movies. So
he would like rent out a room at a restaurant
to take the whole cast to dinner, you know, just
because he wanted to go to dinner, yeah, with the
cast like any other actor, all of us unrecognized people.
Unrecognizable people would be like, do you want to go
(45:43):
to this like bar tonight and hang out and get
to know each other and be like, oh right, but
Hanks can't come, yeah, because that would be like on
the front page in the newspaper man that Tom Hanks
visited like a local bar. So anyway, I feel like
I'm in this place right now where like I'm my
work is being noticed, but I still can like go
to the grocery store. But growing up, I used to
(46:05):
watch a lot of movies with my dad. It was
a way we like bonded. And we had HBO, which
was like a big deal, and so we would watch
movies on HBO. And my dad's thing was always like
when we'd see an actor or character actor from a
movie we'd watched a couple of nights ago pop up
in another movie, You're like, hey, it's that guy from
that movie. And it would drive me crazy because already
then I had like I was, I wanted to be
(46:26):
an actor, and I knew like who everybody was. But Dad,
that's Joe Pantaliano and we saw him and you know
this movie. And then now he's in this movie and
he'd be like, yeah, that guy from that movie. And
now my dad and I joke that I have become
back up from that movie. You know, like for so
many people, they're like, that's that guy. What have I
seen him?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Man?
Speaker 3 (46:44):
It's that guy?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Well now it's like wait, how you take your phone
out and you're like, Okay, how old are they? Who
are they married? Like everyone just does like the Wikipedia
stats and then you're like, wait, I was forgot I
was watching.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Movie, right.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
I think superl like super recognize actors, like can't get
away within anything on set either. I worked for the
super famous guy over quite a long TV series and
he was so lovely like most of the time, but
he'd had like one bad night with his kid who
was up all night and he was a bit cranky.
And it's that day that everyone remembers, that cranky day
(47:20):
that he had. Nobody remembers the other stuff.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
We all have those days or even just those moments
in a day, whether it's on set or like at
a restaurant. Like if I'm you know, I really try
not to be rude to any people in the service industry,
but you know, some days you're just like, you're you're
not as friendly as you could be. But yeah, but
if you're a super recognizable person, then they're like, yeah,
oh that person, Oh yeah, that person's.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And still now that I spoke to somebody the other
day who was on that crew with me, and I'll
remember when he did that. Yeah, that one day.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
All those other days they.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Were Yeah, It's it's tricky. It's very tricky.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
With all of that in mind, Michael, if you had
to pick a chapter title for your career thus far.
What would it be.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
The I I am or the me? Maybe we could
do both.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
We can have some, we can have some parentheses. That's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, like parentheses.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, a lot of parentheses on this show. Because people
usually do exactly what you just did.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Is they'll say one and then they're like, here's another one.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, he's no.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
I love that. Obviously that's a ridiculous riff on Rickens book.
But this is so cheesy. I can't believe say this.
But I uh, I feel like the longer I'm an actor,
the more I get to know myself through characters. Like
I feel like in the beginning it was this exploration
of like other people's lives, right, the interest was stepping
(49:07):
into someone else's shoes, someone else's story, a different time period,
a different country, a different planet, whatever, And a long
I do it, it's more like, oh, there is no separation,
Like it's not some character that's out there, it's just
another aspect of me. Yeah, and maybe it's an aspect
I haven't explored a ton or that I don't access
(49:30):
a lot, but it's still me, and so I feel
like I learned so much from all the projects I've done,
and you know, become more expansive as a person. And
so this journey of being an actor is actually a
journey towards myself, towards self knowledge, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And yeah, has there been one particular role that you've
learned something like you didn't expect to learn.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
That's a great question, I think. So sometimes it's the
character and something is the project. This play that I mentioned,
The Aliens by Annie Baker that I did a long
time ago, I learned so much about stillness and simplicity
and trusting my own ability to sort of just as
(50:21):
an actor, to think of thought and know that it'll
be seen, that it'll be felt. That I don't have
to show as much as I sometimes feel like I
have to, that I don't have to do as much.
And that's partly about trusting the audience. That trusting whether
it's in the theater or on a screen or on
your phone, trusting that whoever is watching is intelligent and
(50:43):
there's also a human being who brings all of their
life experience to it, and that you don't have to
spoon feed people. And of course there are shows and
things that are that that we just want big, broad entertainments.
It is kind of Spain said to us because we're
tired or we're just don't want to work too hard.
But then there are other times where you can be
really small and subtle and just silent or contempla live
(51:08):
and just let the audience come to you.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
I feel like the difference between a great performance and
someone where you're like, I can tell that they're like
acting is what you said about finding yourself, finding a
piece of yourself in the character, or learning something about
yourself in the character. I think when people just try
to perform is when you're completely out of it and
(51:32):
you're like, I feel like I'm watching a soap opera
when it's not meant to be like that, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes what you access about yourself is
not like pleasant, you know. That's the other part. It's
not just like, oh, I learned all these beautiful things
about what a great human being I am. It's like, oh, no,
you like find a dark corner of yourself that you
tried to like, yeah, deny or stay away from or suppress,
but actually like that kind of self analysis that you
(52:01):
have to do as an actor. If I'm really not
in a navel gazing sort of narcissistic way that it's
a benefit of being an actor, but just that it
it then makes my work that much richer because I'm
I'm exploring my own humanity on the deeper level. I
also just think audiences after a while, you don't want
someone who's seeking your approval all the time. We have
(52:24):
this kind of Our dog is very sweet, and it's
kind of he's a sheltered dog, so he's kind of
reactive and anxious, and so like there's a dog training
thing like if you're throwing a ball with your dog,
if you like run towards your dog to like get
the ball or whatever get, they're gonna run away. Yeah,
But to actually get your dog to come to you
is to like it's counterintuitive, it is to walk away
(52:46):
from it is to like run in the opposite direction,
and then they'll want to like come towards you. And
I feel like there's an element of that sometimes with storytelling,
where it's like if I'm constantly seeking the laugh or
the response, it's not gonna come. But if I like
back off a little bit and let you come to it,
then there's space for the laugh to happen.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, yeah, even in the funny moments or the serious moments.
Sometimes I've found your characters to be very funny. But
I think it's because you're playing it as a real
person and not as a like a shtick. Because yeah,
but yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Think everyone in Separate does that really well. Yeah, yeah,
it's one of the great things.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
We talked to Darry about it.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Yeah, it's really true. And I think Ben and Dan
Ben Stillar and Dan Erickson are just such great masters
of tone. It's just it's this razor's edge on that show.
I mean, if anyone was doing too much, it just
would be awful. But yeah, and to find a consistent
tone amongst all these characters who are so different, you know,
(53:54):
like the heightenedness of like milk Check or Ricken versus
the like very realistic, especially like Mark h Autie. Mark,
it's very you know, naturalistic. And yeah, for them all
to feel like they live in somewhat the same world
is such a tough, tough task.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Yeah, talk about learning stuff about yourself. I have learned
so much about myself from that show, just in terms
of like I've dealt with a lot of medical trauma,
so the severance thing to me is very real in
terms of like just trying to get your brain to
be in one place all the time. And to the
point where I was like at that event when Ben
(54:37):
Steller was like, I wonder, like, you know what it
is about the show that makes people connect with it
so much. I was standing in the back and I
was like, does someone have a mic? Like can I can?
Can you hand it to me? Because I would love
to talk about how much it means to me, So
I'll just forgure out how to get It's okay, I
(54:59):
the show is. It's been very healing for me. I
literally bring it up in therapy as like visual examples
of what I'm experiencing because it's so it's the first
time I've ever seen my experience represented on television, and
it's such a like it's not meant to be about
that at all. But I was literally googling like how
to how to like write an op ed piece because
(55:20):
I was like, maybe I could write a letter to
Ben Stiller and they'll put it on Vulture or something
and then he'll be able to read it. But yeah,
it's been super impactful. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I gotta
figure it out. That is one thing that I will
actually follow through on because it means it means a lot.
Maybe not our app but anyway, it's.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
Testament to the power of TV, isn't it. Yeah, You're
not just making entertainment here, yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:45):
Yeah, And in this moment of television where we have
these opportunities to tell these sort of almost long form
yeah movie stories like uh, you know, I love mainstream
work television as well, and I grew up on like
musty TV, you know, yeah, I love sitcoms and the
(56:07):
you know, but this new opportunity to really take your
time and make something artistic that is is television but
is not, you know, not your normal sort of just
procedural show or right. Yeah, I feel very lucky to
be a part of this, this this moment of television.
(56:28):
And I was on Orange's New Black, which was one
of those first streaming shows. Obviously, there was prestige television
already happening on like HBO or like f X, like
you know, those Sopranos and Breaking Bad Six feet Under,
but like the streaming thing. To be a part of
it at the very beginning was such a strange, new
frontier and it also just felt like there was this
(56:50):
opportunity for these for me and other actors that were
a little outside the box that didn't look like or
sound like your normal like NBC sitcom kind of actor
or whatever. And all of a sudden, these like character
actors were playing you know, leading roles or major supporting roles,
and I just felt like the whole thing got blown
(57:13):
wide open, where like you can tell all kinds of
different stories now it doesn't have to.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
That show was amazing that the show was the first
thing I ever saw you and I was of dressed
and we had John mcgaro on and he was on
that show as well, and when I brought it up,
he was like, really, that was the first thing. I
was like, Yeah, I loved Orange Is.
Speaker 3 (57:30):
Yeah, I love Johnny. He's a good pal of mine
and we're both from Cleveland. Yeah, we didn't know each
other and clean, but we know. And we worked on
Captain Phillips together is where we first met. And then
we just shot this movie in Germany like a year
and a half ago. That is out in Germany now
and hopefully it will come Yeah. He plays the great
jazz pianist Keith Jarrett in this movie, and I play
(57:53):
a music journalist who's trying to get an interview with him.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
John's a great actor.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
Oh yeah yeah. And we both loved Severance. And then
I was like, I probably should stop messaging him about
friends because he's gonna block me. But yeah, he's he's
very lovely.
Speaker 3 (58:12):
Yeah, he's a great guy.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, I don't want to keep you from
your child and your life.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
Thank you for having me so fun.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
You've been a delight, Michael.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
It's been delightful, right, the delight was mine. It's very cheers.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
I feel like we've theatrical notes.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
Cheerio, Haley, cheerios. How to Make It is recorded from
a closet in New Jersey and a basement in Leeds,
United Kingdom. It's produced by Emily Capello and Haley mur
Le Darren. For full length videos of our episodes, subscribe
to our YouTube channel at how to Make It Podcast.
(58:53):
For more adventures with Emily and Haley, follow us on
Instagram at how to Make It Podcast, where you'll find
clips from today's episode, mini episode clips, and more random nonsense.
Like and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever other fine podcasts are found
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
May that made us sound so much more serious than
we actually are?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Should we switch rolls on this this time? Okay?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
See that's the intro.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Hi, my name is Michael Chernis, and I wanted to
be a fireman when I grew up, just like many
many little children. Classic. Yeah, and then I moved into
wanting to be the Scarecrow and a Wizard of Oz.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Hey, I wanted to be Dorothy, so.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I wanted to be the Lion.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Oh right, we've got three quarters of a squad going here.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Okay, this could have been the cast of Wicked. What happened?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I all went to terrible shit? No lion here?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
When did you first want to be an actor?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
The first moment that I was on stage, which was
in a school play. I was in the eighth grade
and it was a stage adaptation of the Hobbit, and
I played Gandolf the Wizard, and it was like a
true just a school play, like in a gymnasium. But
(01:44):
I was hooked, and yeah, it felt like I was,
you know, starring on Broadway. And so I just knew.
I don't know that I knew that I wanted to
be a professional actor even knew really how one would
do that, but I just knew I wanted to keep
doing it. And I loved being on stage and I
loved working on a play. Whatever that meant to me
(02:07):
as like a thirteen year old kid, just I think
it was mostly probably unconscious, yeah process at that point.
But and the social aspect of it was a big
deal for me. And I'm sure a lot of actors
and theater folks, writers, directors maybe feel like misfits in
a normal society. And I didn't like play sports or
(02:31):
anything as a kid, so I kind of found my
tribe or my social clique when I discovered theater. And
so for me, that was a large part of it
was just making friends and girls. And I was also
I guess even then I had some kind of like
knack for it on some level, and so getting that
(02:54):
attention too, being in the spotlight, Yeah, and then it
eventually grew into wanting to pursue it as a as
a life, as a career.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
That's great. I think it's those early like school plays,
where you realize whether that kind of adrenaline is pleasurable
or terrifying.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah both, yeah, right or both? Yeah? Yeah. It kind
of separates the weed from the cheff.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah did you go to Julias? Did I read that correctly?
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I did?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, Yeah, I know that's kind of a big deal.
I'm not my Oh, yeah, that's true. I don't know
about the American drama school scene. I know a lot
about the UK drama school scene. I know Julia's a thing.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
It's a big deal. But yeah, when you said you've
discovered you had a knack for it, I was like, yeah,
getting into juilliardist this figure is a big deal.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah exactly, Yeah, I mean it was, it was.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It is a big deal, and it was certainly an
incredible experience going there, and I learned a ton, but
it's also like any place has its and I went
a long long time ago. I think barely any of
the teachers I had are even still there. But also
had its flaws, and it's the actual experience of it
(04:10):
isn't as maybe like mystical and amazing as it sounds
like it would be. But partly how I came to
apply for Juilliard was so I did that school play
in the eighth grade, and then I was so interested
in theater that I had my mom enroll me at
children's theater classes at this great children's theater school in Cleveland, Ohio,
(04:31):
where I grew up in the suburbs of Cleveland, and
it's kids from all over the greater Cleveland area northeast Ohio,
so it wasn't just kids from my high school. And
they approach teaching kids acting pretty seriously, and although it's
a lot of it was a lot of children's theater then.
So I did like Hansel and Gretel, and I also
wonder Landing whatever. And there was this guy who was
(04:54):
a couple of years older than me who got into
Juilliard when he graduated high school, and he would come
back in the summers and teach at this children's theater
in Cleveland, and I just thought he was the coolest guy,
Like he was handsome, kind of was like a young
Daniel day Lewis, like dark black hair, and he wore
like I'm probably imagining this because it was in the summer,
(05:15):
but I feel like he had like a leather jacket
on and was like smoking cigarettes. And when he would
do this summer session with us, he would teach us
like Eugene O. Neil plays and David Mammett plays and
Sam Shephard and and I was like, what is this
isn't this isn't sleeping beauty. This is crazy. And so
it was sort of two parts, like I wanted to
go to Juilliard and move to New York because I
(05:36):
just admired this older guy so much and he was
sort of like my role model. And then also he
made it kind of attainable, like it I think if
I hadn't had him in my life, I would have
been intimidated or freaked out. But I was like, oh,
other people from the subject of Cleveland, Ohio Julliard I could. Yeah.
His name is Michael Tisdale. He's great after a great writer.
(05:59):
So I oh a lot to him.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Do you still stay in such I do?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yeah, yeah I do.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
You should ask if he actually had a leather jacket
or if that.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Was all I should I should? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we move into a section where we
each tell you just a random fact about you and
my oh oh boy.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Oh boy, wondering what you know about.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well, my mind is going to be the same that
it was a couple episodes ago, in that you are
technically now an audio book uh performer as well, and listen,
I certainly learned a lot from listening to that audio book.
I mean, the I'm now going to always refer to
(06:49):
hiking as advanced walking, and yeah, and the the that
he hates sister act and uh, the amount of s
A T words that were in that whole thing. I'm
wondering how much you learned. And then we're like, wait,
what about it as you were performing that and how
different it was between like performing on TV versus in
(07:13):
a booth.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That's a great question. It's so hard to do an audiobook.
It's so exhausting, Like it was a long, full day
and my voice was wrecked, and it's sort of like
art imitating life or vice versa. Like in the last
episode of season one and sevens when Ricken's voice starts
giving out, I was like, oh my god, I'm starting
(07:36):
to warble in the same way. It was really difficult
and even though I'm reading it not as a typical
audiobook narrator, I'm reading it in a character voice that
I've played, there was still a lot of You're doing
too much, your your p's and t's, all your plosives
are popping, and I just felt like I had to
like have this restraint with it that I wasn't anticipating
(07:57):
and it's it's just taxing. And then yeah, I had
to look up a ton of stuff. Jane Erickson, who
created Severance and is our main writer. He's just so
smart and has an encyclopedic knowledge of all things, and
so yeah, there were so many references. I was like,
I don't know who that is or what that is,
but I have to sound like I know what that is. Yeah,
so Rick, Rick stop me, Rickon, stop me.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Some things it was.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I mean, I could see you being exhausted just by
the amount of word, like the big word. I was like,
because I love self help books, I was taking walk
this morning listening to a self help book and so
my brain got along. I was listening Oh God, They'll
let them by Mel Robbins. I was like switching between
(08:40):
Colin Haley and being like, I need your advice. To
like listening to Mel Robins, but I.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Her daughter is a pop singer and I saw her
play at Carnegie Hall as part of this larger event.
What yeah, my friend.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Now we move on to interesting facts about Mel Robbins.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
She let her kids go be a musicians, which is
a worse choice than even letting them be actors.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So that is true. Yeah, because I was listening to
your audio book and my brain was getting confused because
I would be like, okay, like here's a train, I'm
like on this train of thought and then it would
like just divert into sister act and I'd be like wait,
and then I'd be like wait, I don't think I'm
supposed to actually be taking anything away from this.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Where are you? Yeah, Ricken has a bit of spiritual
a d D. It's kind of all over the place. Yeah,
would be part of the incredible.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Spiritual ad D is going to be something I use.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Absolutely. My slightly surprising facts is that you met your
wife on a farm.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
True.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Sorry, tell me about the farm.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
My wife. Yeah. My wife, whose name is Emily, is
an incredible human being. But she founded a arts nonprofit
years ago which was part artist residency program and part
working organic farm housed on a farm that's been an
(10:22):
organic farm since the creation of organic certification, and it's
been in the same family since the seventeen hundreds. In
upstate New York, and Emily created this organization called Space
on Rider Farm, which over the years ended up supporting
thousands of artists and they would come and stay on
the farm for one to five weeks and be abul
to apply with a project, whether it be a play
(10:43):
or a film, or a dance piece or a visual
art a visual artist with their work, and they would
live on the farm and work on their projects and
they would get three farm fresh meals a day. An
incredible organization that sadly has since shuddered. But my years ago,
my friend Max Posner, who's a playwright, was in residence
(11:03):
and he was working on a play and the end
of his time at the farm was going to be
a stage reading in the barn of this play that
he was working on. He asked me to be in it,
and I was also single at the time, and Max
was trying to like be a matchmaker, and so he
was there for a number of days on the farm
before I arrived, and he was sending me these emails
being like, dude, this place is awesome. That's totally up
(11:24):
your alley. It's this like groovy organic farm. Also, the
woman who runs this place is amazing and she's singing,
and I was like, chill, chill, we'll see, we'll see
when I get up there, and unbeknownst to me, he
was doing the same thing. Emily being like, my buddy
Chernis is coming up. Great guy, great actor, single, and
she was like, I'll be open to it as long
as you're not weird, Like this is my place of work,
(11:46):
so don't don't be obvious about it. Right. So I
pull up to the farm and he comes bounding out
of this seventeen hundreds farmhouse and he's like, welcome home, Michael, welcome.
And we go on this tour of the farm with
other people and there's a flock of sheep and he
calls out to the sheep and he's like, look, it's papa.
Papa has returned and just makes it as effing weird
(12:07):
as possible. And so Emily and I don't talk that
entire day because she's totally freaked out. And at work
she's like the boss there, and so there's there's really
kind of no vibe or anything. And they go back
to the city and I write her an email mostly
just to say like, thank you. What you're doing at
the farm is incredible. I was so happy to be there. Also,
if you were ever in the city, I'd love to
(12:29):
take you out for dinner coffee, because I was living
in la for a while right before that. I was like,
or a smoothie, which is so, well, what.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Year was it, because that would have come off really cool.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
It was twenty thirteen, so Smoothie's were a little cooler than.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
They Yeah, thanks for that park it.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Yeah, And so luckily she was like, I'm going to
be in the city on Thursday, and I'd loved to
go to dinner, and I quickly googled Farm to Table
Restaurant Brooklyn and then I was and then I lied
and I was like, what about this place Buttermilk Channel
that I love and go to all the time, and
she was like, oh, yeah, I know that place. That's great.
And so that was our first date, which was September
(13:12):
twenty sixth, twenty thirteen, and then we were married September
twenty six, twenty fifteen, in the backyard of that farmhouse
and my playwright friend Max Posner, who made it weird
was our Rabbi Shaman reverend ordained online minister. So yeah,
that's the whole.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Wow, love exists, you guys.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
There is to see Emily you need hopefully for me
yet yeah, you need a friend like that who can
bring you a good match rather than May who brings
you really emotionally unavailable people.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's mad you got kind of Max, you.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Know, yes, yes, yes, maybe that's.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Bailey's a great podcasting partner, a bad matchmaker.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I'm terrible at.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
This, terrible. I think here's here's my idea, guys, we
should go on Shark Tank instead of dating apps. What
about a wing man app?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Your wing man great idea. Let's let's after we off
this call, let's start.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It's like, okay, I have a lot of ideas wraps,
mostly involving how to get around YouTube being just way
too sensitive.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
But how many how many have come to fruition.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Zero because I can't.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Develop well, So I have a lot of both. For
our wing man app, this is go great.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I think it's a real.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, it's a real you know, find your wings That's
that's what is our slogan, all right, I'm great at
making up ideas. I already know what I'm gonna wear
to the launch like all that, and then just it's
never gonna cool. All right, Great, I'm going to take
(14:57):
our sharp turn and I'm turning car around. I wanted
to talk to you about playing John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Sure that's a natural segment.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Well, I I we laughing about that because there's no
other way. There's no other ways. Yeah, it's like, haha.
I have a fascination with true True, Like I just
I listened to the podcast all the time. I have
a book that I recently got about like the most
famous serial killers in America. I'm wondering how you deal
(15:30):
with playing a character like that, because I even sometimes
when I'm listening to these things, like and I'm not
even looking at anything or watching anything, I need to
like cleanse and not listen because my mood just drastically shifts,
And I'm wondering how you kind of prepare and get
in and out of being able to do that.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, it was really tough, and I don't think I
realized how hard it was and so out of it.
So for everybody who's listening who doesn't know, this is
an upcoming eight part limited series for Peacock called Devil
in Disgui's Gentlemen Gacy, and we made it in Toronto
(16:15):
last like September through March, and so I'm pretty freshly
out of it. And so first of all, I did
a ton of research, and there's a lot of material
out there. There are lots of books and documentaries and
YouTube videos and podcasts, and some were, you know, obviously
(16:39):
way more useful than others. But I really wanted to
kind of be exhaustive about it and make sure that I,
you know, learned everything that I could not out of
a more a bit fascination, but out of a respect
for the gravity of the material and the respect for
the victims and the victims families. How I went about it,
(17:00):
I mean, there were lots of technical ways I tried
to find a way into the character, But in terms
of like protecting myself spiritually, I would say that one
of the big things was, in my opinion, he was
so disconnected from what he was doing. He was so dissociated,
and that in a way he wasn't emotionally affected by it.
(17:20):
And I mean that to sound as harsh as it is,
because he was an awful human.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Being, like he'd take a sociopath.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, he didn't care about these people, And so in
a odd way, the being of him wasn't the difficult part.
It was like after we wrapped for the night or whatever,
then like taking in what just happened or what I
just shot. But like the other actors I think had
the much harder time on set, like the great actress
(17:48):
Marie in Ireland. It was an old friend of mine.
She plays Elizabeth Peaste, who was the mother of Casey's
last known victim, Rob Pieste, And every time she's on
camera she's crying or screaming, freaking out out about finding
her son and then processing the fact that her son
was murdered and her son's body was found. And for me,
I'm looking back at it, I was like, that's a
(18:10):
much harder job. Actually, you're showing up and having to
be raw and vulnerable every day. My job was to
like be not vulnerable and disconnect from what I was doing.
So in some weird way, that protected me. And then
the other thing was my family moved with me to Toronto.
So luckily my wife family was able to come and
we have a two year old daughter, and our dog Murray,
(18:33):
and we rented like a place that we could be
a family in, and we fell in love with Toronto.
And so every day that i'd come home shooting, I'd
have my people, and I'd have my beautiful daughter and
my ridiculous fluffy dog and my incredible wife. And that
helped normalize it. Like I think if I was alone
in Toronto in some sad, little one bedroom corporate apartment
(18:56):
or hotel room, that could have gotten really dark really quickly.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yes, yeah, yeah, because it's just so opposite of like
Patriot or you selling your sister's underwear and orange is
the New Black. It's really really different.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Really different. I love Patriot.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yes, my friend Anthony, Hi Anthony. He he's he's actually
he writes actually for for King of the Hill, so
very into, very into comedy. He was. I met him
because I was working at Warner Brothers and he wrote
for The Big Bang Theory for forty five years that
(19:38):
it was on. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, it's familiar.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
It's about jazz az.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Ar, that band. In the season finale of Severance, it
was a crossover The Big Yes and Young Sheldon was
about Tremmell as a child, you know, learning the band
and yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Anyway, Harry's amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Anyway, wait, guys, after this call, we should pitch a
show called The Big Band Theory.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Sorry, I think it'd be a better app Emily, I
think it's a better app Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Did your family come with you too? Or I don't
know how long you guys were here. I'm in New Jersey.
I'm I'm fifteen minutes away from Lumen. Did your family
come with you when you shot when you were shooting Severance?
Although I guess your daughter was not.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
My daughter was born at the beginning of season well
in the middle of season two, so my biggest concern
we're starting season two was like, what if I'm on
set or something when ye was into labor and then
the strikes happened, first the writer's strike and then the
actors strike, and so we were shut down like every
(21:01):
other show. And so my daughter was born while the
strikes were happening, and I was actually able to have
a like, you know, eight month paternity leave, which was
you know, I would joke that I had the best
strike experience of anyone, be a new dad and be
bonding with my daughter. The interesting thing about SEVENCE is
(21:22):
we shoot all over the place. So the Luman headquarters
the exteriors is Bell Labs in New Jersey, where we
just had a really great, like PR for your Consideration event.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I was there.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Oh you were there. Oh wasn't that awesome?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So I'm going to sell this really short. It was
three point thirty on Saturday. I saw a post by
Bell Works because I follow them on Instagram, and it
was like, there might be a surprise, and I was like,
they're either going to be like giving out free pencils
or the entire cast of the show is going to
be there. I was like, there's no in between. So
(22:01):
I jumped in my car and I was there by
four point thirty and I stood in the standing room
section until seven you guys started, and it was Yeah,
it was unbelievable. It was like, I can't believe this
is happening. And I wouldn't have known about it if
(22:21):
I hadn't been like known enough about the industry to
be like I just have to go.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
So I'm so glad you did. It was such a
cool event.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Was amazing. So yeah, so that's where the Luman headquarters is.
But then like so Ricken and Devon's house is in Pleasantville,
New York, in this amazing development called Usonia, which has
three original Frank Lord Wright houses and then the rest
of the houses were designed by Lloyd Wright disciples and
a lot of the other like Mark Mark sad little
(22:54):
kind of apartment. Yeah complex that's in I think Nayak,
New York. So we're kind of all over. So I've
actually never shot in New Jersey. I've always shown. Yeah,
I'm mostly at Ricken and Devin's house, which is.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
In right true, why would you be at Why would
you be at? God, Emily, why would I not? Oh God,
I'm disappointed in myself.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Come on, you're not thinking about the minutia of how
we shoot the.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Supervisor Listen, you listen. I think I would. I should
know that you've never Why would you be Why would
you be there? Listen? If next season you end up
going to Belwarks, let me know. I know a great
sub sandwich.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Great great Jersey you know Jersey, Yeah, Jersey sandwiches are great.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Sandwiches, bagels, It's it is a beautiful, Well, you were there,
It's a beautiful, beautiful building.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
It's incredible, it's actually yeah, yeah, Yeah. No. So one
of the many, many, many joys of that show is
I get to be at home. Especially we shot season
one during like some of the darkest days of the
early COVID pandemic, So it was such a I would
have taken that job if it was anywhere, but the
(24:10):
fact that it was at home and I didn't have
to travel just made it so much better.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, that just never happens, does it.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
No, No, Usually, the life of the actor is like
Murphy's law, like whatever can go wrong will go wrong,
and like you know, like yeah, and for me with
this job, everything is like gone right my daughter being
born during the strikes and yeah, we'll be safe at
home during the pandemic. It was It's been a real
gift in more ways than just an artistic or career gift.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, what kind of draws you to a role? Because like,
when I look at everything you've done, it's been incredibly diverse,
Like even within your stay to work, when you read
a script, what is it that makes you go, Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I'm lucky enough now to be in a place where
I can make that choice. I mean, it would say
years ago, I would say yes because it was being
offered to be and there was a chance to be
an actor and be paid or not paid to be
an actor. But now that I'm in this sort of
very lucky, blessed position to be a little choosy, it's
(25:14):
sort of an undefinable thing. It's just like there's just
sort of like with Rick, and I'm just like, he's
just so singular, Like I've never read a character like him.
He's so odd and so ridiculous and grandiose, and yet
has this kind of vulnerability and softness and and I
think like with even though his book is so ridiculous,
(25:38):
there is there is sometimes like a wisdom in there,
buried in there. And so I love the right and
I love the challenge of being like that. You can't
I don't want to play this guy as a total joke, Like, yeah,
there is a joke there, there's an inherent joke in
the writing. He's not like a super serious character. It's
he's there for some levity and buffoonery. But I also
(26:01):
like want to make him full and whole and organic
and like as complicated as any other person on this
planet and full of possibilities and dimension. And so with him,
it was it was just his unique voice and some
of the phrases that he uses, and yeah, and just
(26:21):
the things he does, like having a no dinner dinner party,
or having a child developed through the years in three
different beds, or hanging the kelp when a child is born,
or all these different things that just felt totally made
up but also totally realistic when you picture some kind
of crunchy yet intellectual, maybe rich, annoying person. Yeah, I
(26:44):
mean it's just like, yeah, I don't know that there's
any history of like having a child sleep in three
different beds in the same room, but it feels like
totally believable. That's someone.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
So it is there. There is I can't remember what
it was called. I watch the episodes and then I
go on YOUTE when I listen for hours of people
talking about I'm one of those people. And someone actually
did research on the bed thing, and it is something
that people do.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
But there isn't like a race card bed. Oh then
you move into like an actual adult bed.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
No, No, I don't think so, I don't think so, Yeah,
that would be cool. I would like a race.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Card I mean i'd like one.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Now, yeah, there's our third product.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
But yeah, I think there's a whole equation of choosing
a project. For me, it's about the character, but then
there's other things like is the larger piece the player,
the movie or the TV show, like saying something that
I'm interested or believe in, or discussing some kind of
issue whether it's current or just sort of historic or
universal about being a human being that I'm interested in.
(27:46):
Are there people that I really am dying to work with,
whether it's a director, writer, other actors. Is it in
a location that would be really interesting to go visit
or spend time in? And then obviously the other lifeboxes
like is it actually a good experience, a good was
it a bonus financially to my life? Is it a
(28:07):
it would be helpful to my career? That sounds but
it's a business decision as well.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Oh yeah, totally it is.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
But I feel like if you make things, if that's
your leading edge, like you just an interesting career at.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
The end of the day.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, do you have a time in your career that,
if you've listened, we have a section that is called
the story, and it's meant to be a time in
(28:46):
your career where you were doing a task or in
a position or sometime at work or on your way
to the career you wanted where you're just you kind
of have an out of body moment where you're like,
what the heck am I doing? Yeah, industry to begin with.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about this. So the beginning
of my career, I was mostly doing theater. I mean,
I was only doing theater. And that's, as I said,
what I've loved from like an early age, and it's
what I trained to do at Juilliard. The training is
I wouldn't even say primarily, it's almost exclusively a training
for the stage, and really, especially when I went there,
(29:23):
training for the classical theater, Shakespeare and Moliere and Chekhov,
and I was lucky enough to know a lot of
young playwrights when I was at school. There's also a
great playwriting program at Julliard, so a lot of my
friends were writers. And when I got out of school,
a lot of the work I was doing was partly
because no one was asking me to do film and television,
(29:44):
and I wasn't booking any jobs through auditions. People were
casting me in plays and sometimes off off Broadway, like
in a storefront, for like no money or very little money.
Eventually I started to claw my way into the New
York theater world, and I was eventual by two thousand
and seven two thousand and eight, I was doing really
(30:04):
great new plays and interesting new plays by great writers
at very good Off Broadway theaters. And I had this
season from the fall of two thousand and seven to
the spring in two thousand and eight where I was
in four Off Broadway plays back to back to back,
and I was like rehearsing one play while doing another
play at night, and I was exhausted. But I was
just being used up as an actor in the best way.
(30:27):
I mean I used that like not being used in
a gross way, but just like all of my faculties
and energy and creativity and imagination were just totally on
fire and being put to use. And it was in
some ways the artistically the happiest I've ever been. And
(30:48):
I was practically bankrupt, like I just even doing two
plays at the same time, You're just not making enough
to survive the theater. And so I had this out
of body sort of epiphany of like, if this is
not the pinnacle of my theater career, but this is
like kind of having arrived, and I could obviously go
(31:09):
on to do Broadway where it's much more lucrative, but like,
if this is like a moment of being like an
established New York theater actor, I need to really think
seriously about my life choices here. And I was young
enough that I was like, I could pivot, but I
don't really know how to do anything else. I mean,
one of the drawbacks that's going to Julia, Yeah, I
(31:30):
ain't gonna be a plumber now, and I ain't gonna
be a banker, and I ain't I'm not gonna be anything.
I'm not gonna Yeah, no, I'm not gonna be a
fireman or the scarecrow. And so I decided that I
was going to take a year where I was gonna
say no to pretty much any theater offer or audition
(31:53):
that came in unless it was something huge that I
couldn't say no to in order to be available to
film and TV. Because one of the things that was
happening was I was in these theater productions that I
really cared about, with artists that I cared about and
I had made a commitment to, and some who had
written roles for me, and I couldn't then be like Oh, hey,
(32:13):
I just booked an episode of Line Order. I don't
have to drop out of the player. I have to
go to Memphis to shoot this indie. So I was
just never available for filming.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Ser This is what happens. This is what happens. People
get stuck in theater that way, don't they.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
You can, yeah, because the work is so incredible, Like
I love being on camera that the work is also
very engaging. It's not that one is better than the other,
but that high of being on stage, that communication with
the audience. Yeah, it's unlike anything else on the planet.
And the more you're in the theater, the more it's
(32:49):
a small community at the end of the day. And
so the more people know you and they're starting to
make work for you. And I think I could have
very happily just stayed in the theater world exclusively, but
I couldn't have lived so anyway. I took this year
where I was like, I'm just gonna not do plays,
and I started to claw my way into doing I
did some films that you're nothing major in terms of roles,
(33:09):
but in some big films, it's a long game, right,
It's a long career. It's a long life. And so
in that year I met some filmmakers and people who
I've gone on to work with a bunch of times
in larger capacities. So it was all worth it in
planting seeds. But like, during that year off from the theater,
I was also like, ah shit, I made a total
(33:30):
mistake because I'm not. It wasn't like I immediately then
booked a pilot and moved to la and was making
a bunch of money. There is a kind of starting over.
It's the same sort of career, but you're meeting all
kinds of different casting directors. Your most film and TV
directors aren't familiar with your off Broadway credits, so it
doesn't like it's not like that transfers over into the
(33:52):
other medium. And yeah, so that's my for the story section.
I think there was this year where I took a
gamble on myself and said I'm going to leave this
thing where I'm having success and make sort of this
like odd choice, this that doesn't feel like the instinctual choice.
You've got a bird in the hand here with this
theater career.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, yeah, it's a brave decision. It's an incredibly brave decision.
Because you were like award winning, like yeah, wait, usually successful.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Yeah, I was very I had a very I'm talking
about like it's over. I mean I would love to
do Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Was gonna say.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
I was like, yeah, but yeah, I want to obi
for this beautiful play called in the Wake at the
Public Theater. And I was lucky enough to work with
some incredible playwrights. I was in the world premiere of
a play called The Aliens by Anny Baker.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Yeah, I've had extraordinary theater experiences. I worked a lot
with the director Sam Gold, who was a big Broadway
director now. But you know, there's also an element of
I think I just realized the lifestyle is maybe I
wasn't cut out to be a theater person exclusively the
eight shows a week. It's the hardest thing in the work. Yeah,
(35:04):
it's it's so taxing, and and as you get older,
the toll it takes on your body. And yeah, and
I also knew I really wanted to have a family
and now that I have a child, and like, how
how I mean, obviously plenty of people do it, but
right now and like she's too and I'm like some
days it's like how am I going to take a
shower today. Yeah. Getting it together to talk to you
(35:24):
guys in this podcast was like a feet you know, Yeah,
I'm amazing. I'm just a dad who.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
In the living room on the street. Destructions are like,
I'm do not come in this room. You don't move.
I've set them up with stuff to do. You do
not move from that space. The trick is it.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I just saw I was thinking about the eight shows
thing because I just saw Death Becomes Her last weekend
on Broadway, and I was so exhausted by the time
they were finished, and I was just obviously sitting. I
was like, I cannot imagine doing this. I just don't know.
It boggles the mind. So I feel like I would
(36:08):
I would fail in that regard. I do two shows
and I'd be like, I think they got it.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, I think we did it.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
That was good, good work everyone.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I think you know one sets with cast and crew,
the people who have come from theater backgrounds because they
moan a lot less because they're used to being exhausted
in theaters.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
And it is true. Yeah. Someone told me once that
you know a theater actor because at the end of
the day they hang up their costume in the trailer.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Oh God, that's so true.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, there's a kind of you know, I mean this
in the best way, but there's there is kind of
a blue collar attitude to to a theater worker. You know,
it's it's a it's a craft, right, it's a tree
and it's something that you learn and you apprentice for
and it's not something that's handed to you. And it
(37:07):
takes a village to make it. So you know, when
you're backstage with the stage hands and everyone, you realize
how it's a family affair and how symbiotic it is
and we all need each other and so I think
we all bring that to them the set and it's like,
you know, the respect for the crew is so huge
for me and my work ethic, like getting to know
(37:27):
the crew and really know this, especially on Deviling Disguise
when we're making this thing about John Gaycy, but affected
all of us. Like everyone was worried about me, but
I was worried about the camera folks who were having
to watch every second of this through the.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Lens hugeally activating hugely.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah, or the costume department was having to do all
this research about and see all these photos, these these
photos of these bodies or the crime scene. Everyone's in
it together. And that's the thing that folks at home
don't see. It's like all the people who don't get
the credit that the actors get or the directors get.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Yeah, what is your definition of making it?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
How we how would you define that within your career
all your life in general?
Speaker 3 (38:20):
You know, I feel that I've made it because I
do what I love to do, and I am generally
comfortable in my life, and I feel challenged by the
material I work on, and I I'm inspired by the
people I work with. That sounds kind of corny, but
(38:43):
there's always more to like go for in all those
regards I was talking about, Like there's more challenges artistically,
like playing John Gacy's a kind of character I've never
played before, So like getting to do that was a
new artistic life level of uh exploration. But like and
(39:03):
then there's obviously like all the outside stuff and returning
about like there's new career levels and uh, there's new
financial levels. But like making it, I don't know, for me,
it's about just being able to worry a little bit less,
Like it's never guaranteed and it's such a fickle business
and uh, but just being able to feel like, Okay,
(39:24):
I'm here, you know, like I'm an actor. I'm doing this.
It's my job, it's my only job. Yeah, you know.
I think there's a difference people talk about like making it.
There's a difference between a arriving and then like making it.
Like I feel like there's a moment where you're like, Okay,
oh wow, I'm here, like I'm actually in the room
(39:44):
where it happens like I'm and that's different for every actor.
But I'm on a set of a big TV show,
or I'm a I'm in a I'm in a Broadway play,
or I'm whatever it is, you know, I'm I got
a you know, a contract a tour of a musical
and uh. And so you've you've arrived in that moment
of like your first big job, and you're like you
(40:06):
really self identify as a as a professional actor. And
and then there's this point I think where you've been
doing it for a while and you've recrued some hours
and some experience and you and you start to have
a reputation and people know your work and I'm still surprised,
Like you brought up Patriot and for a number of reasons.
(40:26):
A lot of people didn't see that show. But sometimes
you feel like you make these things in a vacuum
and like nobody. And I'm still shocked when people know
my work.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Because you're so funny in it.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Oh thanks, it's not a it's not that's not a
I'm not talking about like whether I'm good on it
or not. It's just like I'm still I'm still surprised
that people know anything. I do, you know what I mean?
Oh yeah, it's still obviously I know that Severance is
like an international hit, but like it's it's still and
I hope I never lose this. I'm still just like
I'm still like a little kid, like being like, oh wow,
(40:59):
you watch that? You saw that? Like that's crazy And
so I don't know, I think this is such a
long not.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Sustainty carry on, No, it's great.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah, I think making it for me is being able
to make choices in my career not out of necessity
but out of interest. Being able to choose the projects
I want because they're interesting to me, now because I
need the money or the credit.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, I love that. Yeah that is a good one.
It's a sinker.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I like that I like the for for a second
when you were talking about arriving versus making it, I
felt like I was listening to the audiobook good Way.
I was like, oh, like i'm learning something anyway.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, I definitely knew you before severing. Yeah, you're recognizable
like from Dead Ringers. It's like when you're recognizable like that,
like that's a cool place to be, right, isn't that?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Well? Yeah, and it's a great sweet spot right now
in terms of just my private life, because I feel
like people know my face but they don't know why.
And sometimes they know I'm an actor and they can't
place it. But sometimes they'll be like, hey, did you
go to high school with my sister?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Or like I used to them all the time in
LA and the grocery store, I'd be like, you're either
super famous or you live near me.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
I right, And especially when you live in like New
York or LA or Chicago, it's like it could be
either one. And I used to drive my wife crazy
because we'd be on the subway and someone be staring
at me and then they'd be I know you, and
I'd be like maybe how and she'd like Jesus Christ
and they'd be like did you go to like where
did you go to college? And I'd be like, well,
(42:47):
I went to Juilliard, but like, and she would just
say that you're an actor and you're on a TV
show and I'm like and so she would she was
encouraging me to like just own it for and just
be like, I'm an actor. I'm an actor, you know.
And so I was at a bar and he or
a couple of years ago, and the bartender was like, hey, man,
I know you. And I was like, yeah, I'm an
actor and he was like, no, I'm from Cleveland. I
(43:10):
used to play in bands with your brother. And I
was like, oh yeah, hey dude, And like two seconds later,
two minutes later, I get a text from my brother
like hey, hotshot heard you're trying to be a big
Hollywood actor at a bar. Huh. Yeah. So I got
burned on that one.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
So, you know, Michael, I went out with a guy
who was on one thing, oh my god, ten years ago,
like twelve years ago, like and uh, he was late
to our entire day, like it was like a full
day of things. And it because he kept thinking people
(43:49):
were recognizing him and they weren't. And so you'd have
to someone explain where he knew where they might know
him from. Oh no, so guys, this is why we
need the app.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yeah, we need the app.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah no, but it was so it was and I
saw it happen once because I was like, I gotta
get on the subway, like I'm gonna miss the fairy.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
And he would just like give them his resume of like.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
We were like walking by a group and they were
like hey man, and he'd be like, hey, let me
tell you where you might know me from.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
And they were just like, hey, no, your shoe is untied. Man,
I was just trying to help you. No, I didn't
see you on n CLS.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah I resacted. Yeah I didn't set that one up.
No you didn't.
Speaker 3 (44:33):
I could.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
That was my fault. But it's just yeah, so there's
a I feel like there's a middle probably.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
There's there's totally a middle ground. But yeah, but you
can't get me. Yeah, no to your original point, Like, no,
I I it is a sweet spot of like I
feel like I can be anonymous ish and not you know,
because like I've worked with a lot of super famous
people and there are obviously a ton of benefits that
go along with being super famous, but there really are
(45:00):
some very bad sides of it. We're like, you can't
go anywhere normal, you know, Like this is an extreme example,
but I did Captain Phelps with Tom Hanks, who is
the nicest, greatest person on the planet first of all,
and when anyone ever says anything bad about him, I
just want to kill them because he's Tom.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Hanks is like, we've got it on the record now.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
But we shot this movie and like he can't go
to dinner or like go out to the movies. So
he would like rent out a room at a restaurant
to take the whole cast to dinner, you know, just
because he wanted to go to dinner, yeah, with the
cast like any other actor, all of us unrecognized people.
Unrecognizable people would be like, do you want to go
(45:43):
to this like bar tonight and hang out and get
to know each other and be like, oh right, but
Hanks can't come, yeah, because that would be like on
the front page in the newspaper man that Tom Hanks
visited like a local bar. So anyway, I feel like
I'm in this place right now where like I'm my
work is being noticed, but I still can like go
to the grocery store. But growing up, I used to
(46:05):
watch a lot of movies with my dad. It was
a way we like bonded. And we had HBO, which
was like a big deal, and so we would watch
movies on HBO. And my dad's thing was always like
when we'd see an actor or character actor from a
movie we'd watched a couple of nights ago pop up
in another movie, You're like, hey, it's that guy from
that movie. And it would drive me crazy because already
then I had like I was, I wanted to be
(46:26):
an actor, and I knew like who everybody was. But Dad,
that's Joe Pantaliano and we saw him and you know
this movie. And then now he's in this movie and
he'd be like, yeah, that guy from that movie. And
now my dad and I joke that I have become
back up from that movie. You know, like for so
many people, they're like, that's that guy. What have I
seen him?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Man?
Speaker 3 (46:44):
It's that guy?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Well now it's like wait, how you take your phone
out and you're like, Okay, how old are they? Who
are they married? Like everyone just does like the Wikipedia
stats and then you're like, wait, I was forgot I
was watching.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Movie, right.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
I think superl like super recognize actors, like can't get
away within anything on set either. I worked for the
super famous guy over quite a long TV series and
he was so lovely like most of the time, but
he'd had like one bad night with his kid who
was up all night and he was a bit cranky.
And it's that day that everyone remembers, that cranky day
(47:20):
that he had. Nobody remembers the other stuff.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
We all have those days or even just those moments
in a day, whether it's on set or like at
a restaurant. Like if I'm you know, I really try
not to be rude to any people in the service industry,
but you know, some days you're just like, you're you're
not as friendly as you could be. But yeah, but
if you're a super recognizable person, then they're like, yeah,
oh that person, Oh yeah, that person's.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And still now that I spoke to somebody the other
day who was on that crew with me, and I'll
remember when he did that. Yeah, that one day.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
All those other days they.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Were Yeah, It's it's tricky. It's very tricky.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
With all of that in mind, Michael, if you had
to pick a chapter title for your career thus far.
What would it be.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
The I I am or the me? Maybe we could
do both.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
We can have some, we can have some parentheses. That's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, like parentheses.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, a lot of parentheses on this show. Because people
usually do exactly what you just did.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Is they'll say one and then they're like, here's another one.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Yeah, he's no.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
I love that. Obviously that's a ridiculous riff on Rickens book.
But this is so cheesy. I can't believe say this.
But I uh, I feel like the longer I'm an actor,
the more I get to know myself through characters. Like
I feel like in the beginning it was this exploration
of like other people's lives, right, the interest was stepping
(49:07):
into someone else's shoes, someone else's story, a different time period,
a different country, a different planet, whatever, And a long
I do it, it's more like, oh, there is no separation,
Like it's not some character that's out there, it's just
another aspect of me. Yeah, and maybe it's an aspect
I haven't explored a ton or that I don't access
(49:30):
a lot, but it's still me, and so I feel
like I learned so much from all the projects I've done,
and you know, become more expansive as a person. And
so this journey of being an actor is actually a
journey towards myself, towards self knowledge, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And yeah, has there been one particular role that you've
learned something like you didn't expect to learn.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
That's a great question, I think. So sometimes it's the
character and something is the project. This play that I mentioned,
The Aliens by Annie Baker that I did a long
time ago, I learned so much about stillness and simplicity
and trusting my own ability to sort of just as
(50:21):
an actor, to think of thought and know that it'll
be seen, that it'll be felt. That I don't have
to show as much as I sometimes feel like I
have to, that I don't have to do as much.
And that's partly about trusting the audience. That trusting whether
it's in the theater or on a screen or on
your phone, trusting that whoever is watching is intelligent and
(50:43):
there's also a human being who brings all of their
life experience to it, and that you don't have to
spoon feed people. And of course there are shows and
things that are that that we just want big, broad entertainments.
It is kind of Spain said to us because we're
tired or we're just don't want to work too hard.
But then there are other times where you can be
really small and subtle and just silent or contempla live
(51:08):
and just let the audience come to you.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
I feel like the difference between a great performance and
someone where you're like, I can tell that they're like
acting is what you said about finding yourself, finding a
piece of yourself in the character, or learning something about
yourself in the character. I think when people just try
to perform is when you're completely out of it and
(51:32):
you're like, I feel like I'm watching a soap opera
when it's not meant to be like that, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes what you access about yourself is
not like pleasant, you know. That's the other part. It's
not just like, oh, I learned all these beautiful things
about what a great human being I am. It's like, oh, no,
you like find a dark corner of yourself that you
tried to like, yeah, deny or stay away from or suppress,
but actually like that kind of self analysis that you
(52:01):
have to do as an actor. If I'm really not
in a navel gazing sort of narcissistic way that it's
a benefit of being an actor, but just that it
it then makes my work that much richer because I'm
I'm exploring my own humanity on the deeper level. I
also just think audiences after a while, you don't want
someone who's seeking your approval all the time. We have
(52:24):
this kind of Our dog is very sweet, and it's
kind of he's a sheltered dog, so he's kind of
reactive and anxious, and so like there's a dog training
thing like if you're throwing a ball with your dog,
if you like run towards your dog to like get
the ball or whatever get, they're gonna run away. Yeah,
But to actually get your dog to come to you
is to like it's counterintuitive, it is to walk away
(52:46):
from it is to like run in the opposite direction,
and then they'll want to like come towards you. And
I feel like there's an element of that sometimes with storytelling,
where it's like if I'm constantly seeking the laugh or
the response, it's not gonna come. But if I like
back off a little bit and let you come to it,
then there's space for the laugh to happen.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, yeah, even in the funny moments or the serious moments.
Sometimes I've found your characters to be very funny. But
I think it's because you're playing it as a real
person and not as a like a shtick. Because yeah,
but yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Think everyone in Separate does that really well. Yeah, yeah,
it's one of the great things.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
We talked to Darry about it.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Yeah, it's really true. And I think Ben and Dan
Ben Stillar and Dan Erickson are just such great masters
of tone. It's just it's this razor's edge on that show.
I mean, if anyone was doing too much, it just
would be awful. But yeah, and to find a consistent
tone amongst all these characters who are so different, you know,
(53:54):
like the heightenedness of like milk Check or Ricken versus
the like very realistic, especially like Mark h Autie. Mark,
it's very you know, naturalistic. And yeah, for them all
to feel like they live in somewhat the same world
is such a tough, tough task.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Yeah, talk about learning stuff about yourself. I have learned
so much about myself from that show, just in terms
of like I've dealt with a lot of medical trauma,
so the severance thing to me is very real in
terms of like just trying to get your brain to
be in one place all the time. And to the
point where I was like at that event when Ben
(54:37):
Steller was like, I wonder, like, you know what it
is about the show that makes people connect with it
so much. I was standing in the back and I
was like, does someone have a mic? Like can I can?
Can you hand it to me? Because I would love
to talk about how much it means to me, So
I'll just forgure out how to get It's okay, I
(54:59):
the show is. It's been very healing for me. I
literally bring it up in therapy as like visual examples
of what I'm experiencing because it's so it's the first
time I've ever seen my experience represented on television, and
it's such a like it's not meant to be about
that at all. But I was literally googling like how
to how to like write an op ed piece because
(55:20):
I was like, maybe I could write a letter to
Ben Stiller and they'll put it on Vulture or something
and then he'll be able to read it. But yeah,
it's been super impactful. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I gotta
figure it out. That is one thing that I will
actually follow through on because it means it means a lot.
Maybe not our app but anyway, it's.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
Testament to the power of TV, isn't it. Yeah, You're
not just making entertainment here, yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:45):
Yeah, And in this moment of television where we have
these opportunities to tell these sort of almost long form
yeah movie stories like uh, you know, I love mainstream
work television as well, and I grew up on like
musty TV, you know, yeah, I love sitcoms and the
(56:07):
you know, but this new opportunity to really take your
time and make something artistic that is is television but
is not, you know, not your normal sort of just
procedural show or right. Yeah, I feel very lucky to
be a part of this, this this moment of television.
(56:28):
And I was on Orange's New Black, which was one
of those first streaming shows. Obviously, there was prestige television
already happening on like HBO or like f X, like
you know, those Sopranos and Breaking Bad Six feet Under,
but like the streaming thing. To be a part of
it at the very beginning was such a strange, new
frontier and it also just felt like there was this
(56:50):
opportunity for these for me and other actors that were
a little outside the box that didn't look like or
sound like your normal like NBC sitcom kind of actor
or whatever. And all of a sudden, these like character
actors were playing you know, leading roles or major supporting roles,
and I just felt like the whole thing got blown
(57:13):
wide open, where like you can tell all kinds of
different stories now it doesn't have to.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
That show was amazing that the show was the first
thing I ever saw you and I was of dressed
and we had John mcgaro on and he was on
that show as well, and when I brought it up,
he was like, really, that was the first thing. I
was like, Yeah, I loved Orange Is.
Speaker 3 (57:30):
Yeah, I love Johnny. He's a good pal of mine
and we're both from Cleveland. Yeah, we didn't know each
other and clean, but we know. And we worked on
Captain Phillips together is where we first met. And then
we just shot this movie in Germany like a year
and a half ago. That is out in Germany now
and hopefully it will come Yeah. He plays the great
jazz pianist Keith Jarrett in this movie, and I play
(57:53):
a music journalist who's trying to get an interview with him.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
John's a great actor.
Speaker 1 (57:59):
Oh yeah yeah. And we both loved Severance. And then
I was like, I probably should stop messaging him about
friends because he's gonna block me. But yeah, he's he's
very lovely.
Speaker 3 (58:12):
Yeah, he's a great guy.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yeah. Yeah, Well, I don't want to keep you from
your child and your life.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
Thank you for having me so fun.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
You've been a delight, Michael.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
It's been delightful, right, the delight was mine. It's very cheers.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
I feel like we've theatrical notes.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
Cheerio, Haley, cheerios. How to Make It is recorded from
a closet in New Jersey and a basement in Leeds,
United Kingdom. It's produced by Emily Capello and Haley mur
Le Darren. For full length videos of our episodes, subscribe
to our YouTube channel at how to Make It Podcast.
(58:53):
For more adventures with Emily and Haley, follow us on
Instagram at how to Make It Podcast, where you'll find
clips from today's episode, mini episode clips, and more random nonsense.
Like and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever other fine podcasts are found
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