June 16, 2025 • 43 mins
Singer and actor Toby Sebastian joins Emily and Haley to discuss getting back into the recording studio, being a biopic pro, and how to handle rejection. Haley thinks she knows Toby's mom, Emily wonders if she should take up the drums, and we figure out how long it would take to walk across England. So record a song, call your mom, and crawl to Scotland as you listen to Chapter 25 of 'How To Make It.'
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
May that made us sound so much more serious than
we actually are?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Should we switch roles on this time? Okay, see that's
the intro.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Hi, my name is Toby, and I want to be
a musician. And I grew up wanted to be a
policeman as well.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It's not a combo of the two.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
I also there are lots of things I want to.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Be and what what carved away to make it stay
as a.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Musician, probably encouragement from my family when I even when
I sounded judgeful.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's that's always nice and rare.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I feel like, yeah, I think so, yeah, I think
I think there probably was a lot of putting up
with some not so good, it's not so nice, kind
of screechy sounding music from all of us siblings. But hey,
good on, mom and dad.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, you've got to let the bad stuff out for
the good stuff to come in, haven't you You've gotta
you've gotta.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Do the Yeah, it's true. There's a whole process.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Were you like the kid after school playing really loud
music in your parents' house. I'm thinking of Freaky Friday
with Lindsay Little Hand where the parents are screaming at
her to start playing guitar.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
I wasn't playing probably music really loud, but I was
probably certainly playing music just sport really loud, thinking it
was really cool. I remember buying I think my first ever,
my first I can remember it because I just i'd
like help my mum and dad over like a couple
of weekends, a few weekends or something. I got given
this little CD player and which, like you look back,
(02:17):
this thing would have been awful now that we were
also used to having like listening to music so easy.
But I my first I think my first ever CD
was like was crazy Town Butterfly. I remember like running
around in my bedroom. Yeah, like at nine, such an innocent,
(02:38):
like innocent good boy, running around thinking I was you know,
I was, I was worthy of wrapping these lyrics and
my lady basically you have a Butterfly sugar baby. Yeah,
my sister and I would do that. That was a
whole act.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
How do we make.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Don't think you can. It's impossible to clarify. You would
want to see it as him as an adult. Let's
not say you want to see a nine year old.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
No, I don't want to see that. No, I just
want to I want to see it now, but never mine.
Just for the record, just for the record, just check.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Uh. We move into a section where we tell you
two random facts that we found out about you on
the internet. I have to say you seem to be
a biopic pro because you've played two very iconic people,
Andrea Agassi and Andrea Bocelli. I like, I feel like
(03:41):
people aim to do that once in their career, and
you've done it twice now early on, I'm wondering what
that experience was like for you.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Well, first of all, I don't think. I like, it's
not usual at all. Normally you build up to the
bier pic, you know, like you know, forty plus or
something after you've been working for twenty years. I think
that the truth is is that playing and was based
on account of his life, in his words, based on
(04:12):
a book that he wrote. But Agathy was it was
kind of a reimagining of his love life with Stephanie Graff,
so it wasn't actually based on his book. I mean
I read his book when I'd got the role, when
I was kind of in contention for the role. I
think if it had been if it was probably incredibly
accurate to his actual life and it was really based
(04:34):
on his book, I probably would have been I probably
wouldn't need to be really convinced to do it, because
it would have been a really scary, daunting you know,
to play two different people, not more truthfully is the
wrong way of saying, but you know, like based on
their actual lives and every single thing is exactly as
it was. Whereas because the Agacy script was kind of like,
(04:59):
you know, an idea of what was going on in
their love life and everything, that made it kind of
less scary.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I suppose, yeah, like based on yeah, it.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Was like yeah, still it is still both a lot
of fun.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, still very impressive and very cool and a big
task to take on.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah, they were.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
For playing and playing another person, like a real person
rather somebody fictional.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Lots of watching, lots of reading, I think with I
found that the I'd say that the I'd say that
the prep process for and was easier in the sense
that there's there was a lot more a lot more
film with him that I could find on Dragacy, there's
you know, there's lots of bits. But I think that
(05:52):
because he has always lived a more private life, and
although he's a private man in many ways, he's kind
of more in the pop image, So I found more
basically more footage of him. But yeah, lots of watching,
lots of reading, and lots of listening to their voices.
(06:13):
The voice, finding the voice. I think finding the voice
can really set you up well as an actor, especially
when you're you know, when you're trying to play someone
or you're portraying someone. That voice is so important because
the sound of the voice can also end up dictating
how you end up using your mouth to be Like,
then if you just kind of in my experience, when
(06:36):
I've just tried to follow someone's facial expressions, if I
haven't kind of really understood what that the voice sounds
like and how it goes up and down or how
melodic it is, it kind of doesn't it's it's not
very fluid.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I imagine that kind of leaks into your entire body
as well, once you've kind of nailed that part for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yeah, because they kind of they go hand in hand.
You can't really have one without the other. But you
have to just have to know your stuff. Really just
listen and listen and listen and listen. But it's a
lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
If the voice is wrong, you can also be like
that is It takes you out of it because you're like,
that's I know that person's voice and that is not
at all what they sound like exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah. My fact is that you used to live in Spain.
Tell me about Spain, Toby, Did you grow up in Spain?
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Spain? I lived there for three years. Yeah, move and
I was like seven and we all moved as a family.
We lived there for three years. We would go back
to another four years after we moved back to England.
Very very rich memories. Some of the greatest memories I
have were those years of childhood, very free, very warm.
(07:52):
My dad was we were there the three years that
we lived with. My dad was still running he's a
restaurant to and he's still running his restaurants in good
at the time, so he was the first year he
was doing one week in Spain and three weeks in Oxford.
Second year it was two and two. In the third
year it was one week in Oxford in three weeks
in Spain. So it kind of flipped, and that meant
(08:16):
that all the times that he came over, obviously time
was limited and there wasn't a lot of it to
see my mum or to see us children. So we
were you know, he was like, well he is, he
always has been, you know, the best father. But because
the time I think was so limited, the times that
we did have him with him, we were every single weekend.
(08:37):
We were motorbiking and fishing and just living a very
fun full life.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
See, I love Spain, gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I am so uncultured. I'm like I've been. I visited
Hailey Ones in English.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Spain is amazing. My wife is from Spain and well
she's English but also pretty much Spanish, and we spend
a huge amount of time there. It's an amazing place. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Now for people, okay, people from the UK, does going
to Spain seem like less of a huge deal than
when I think of going to Spain. Okay, yeah, that
helps me feel a little bit better. Because Haley, when
you're like, oh, I went to Ireland yesterday, I'm like,
could you like what.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's forty minutes on a plane?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Okay, well then I mean but yeah, forty minutes from
a plane here is.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Like not that great.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
But I suppose where about to you in the States.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So I'm I'm in New Jersey, Amo, forty minutes outside
of New York City.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
The thing is, America is so big for us. We
are very lucky in the sense that Europe is right there.
We have all of it to explore. And I'm envious
of you for being in America because there are places
in America that I love dearly that I don't get
to see, you know, nowhere near as much as I
(10:02):
as I was. Also Nashville. I love Nashville. Spent a
lot of time in Nashville when I just left school
doing music stuff, and I actually recording an album in
Nashville when I was I think eighteen to twenty, and
so I love it. Not there, I would love to
go back. I haven't been back into back maybe ten years.
(10:23):
I love La I had a lot of fun in La.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Atlanta, all good places.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, but I'm certainly envious of you in the same
way that you are probably a loss.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, I feel better about myself now, so I think
we can move on.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Move on, Kiley, do you want to go first?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Probody, let me do. Yeah, I would like, just like,
let's carry on with your youth a little bit then.
So what music did you grow up listening to?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
We had music playing very loud most days. Both my
parents are big musos. My dad loved Bowie, my mom
loved like Marvin Gay and Al Green. I'd say that
we were growing up listening to Marvin Gay, Al Green,
John Martin, Crowded House, Bowie. The Beatles were a huge
(11:23):
influence in our family, is particularly the Revolver. That album
like Here, There and Everywhere still is one of my
old time favorites. It takes me back to that time
of being in Spain, and we used to have two cars.
We had a in Spain, we had a jeep like
an old beaten up cheap and we had an old
(11:43):
beaten up lundro My parents had got both these cars
that I think they both probably done about two hundred
thousand miles on each of them. They were a good
deal and one of them, the Landrover, we had put
the motorbikes. The motorbikes into the back into the boot
and we would basically drive up to the countryside and
go biking, and then the jeep would do similar things too.
But that album Revolver we it feels like, I mean,
(12:07):
I might be wrong, but I feel like that was
kind of the soundtrack of those three years. So yeah,
equals very important.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, I mean I can hear those kind of vibes
through your work as well, and it like I grew
with that music as well, so it really resonates with me.
And I also do music that kind of tells the story,
and I feel like you're feel like a journey. So
how do you kind of go about weaving those influences
(12:38):
through your music. Does it just seep in naturally or
is it more of a deliberate thing.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I think I think probably the older I get or
the more I write music, it probably becomes more deliberate.
But I think generally on the whole, it's it's never
been intentional. I think for my in my case anyway,
listening to a sound or an artist and being influenced
(13:05):
influenced by the musically, the way that kind of seeps
into my music is that when I next pick up
my guitarro, when I next pick up sit down at
the piano, I start kind of making, you know, my
version of those things. And there are songs like I
was talking to some of the other day. On this
(13:26):
album is a song called Eyes Light Up, the album
title track, and it was not intentional at all. But
when I listened back to that song, now I hear
the influence of John Martin and I hear the Beatles
in it. I wasn't thinking that at all when I
was writing the song, when I sat down, I was
fingerpicking and when I was coming up with that melody.
But I can hear it. It's extremely clear to me
(13:48):
that it's there. So most of the time it's unintentional.
I've never really sat down or maybe once or twice
it gone, I want to write this side of song
because it just doesn't work like that.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, it's so interesting to me, Like how that kind
of thing comes about. Does where you record make any difference?
Because you said you recorded that album in Nashville that
woe when younger, Like, can you hear the Nashville in it?
Like some people are really influenced by where they record,
aren't they.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Yeah, I can I can. There are definitely things of
that first album that I can hear. It's less of
a genre thing and more of it's like the way
that the instruments are played in that Fiel. One of
our biggest problems that we came into. I mean, I
was so young, so I'd already had a few years
of experience of like music studios, but in terms of production,
(14:40):
you know, I knew what I liked, I knew and
I didn't like. And also there was a lot of
uncertainty there too, because I felt like I didn't have
a leg to stand on in many ways when I
was working with people that were in their forties and
were doing it for twenty years. But the biggest thing
that I can hear is something that I remember experiencing
at the time, which was that everything sounded so perfect
because the musicians that I was working with in Nashville,
(15:03):
and most of them really are so kind of on
top of their game and so unbelievably brilliant that there's
a very little room for imperfection. It's not one. It's
not only that they aim to not have any imperfections.
I think also like some of them are incapable of
it really because the culture, at least when I was there,
(15:24):
that people would come in for a session and they
would just bang out. If you came in as a
session guitarist, you came as a drummer, you'd just come
in and you'd bang out maybe six songs in a day,
which is normal, like you do that in London too,
But there was a level of precision that I hadn't
seen before, and so our problem at the time was
like we wanted to make it a bit more rough
around the edges, and that was kind of impossible to
(15:46):
do with those musicians because they were just so brilliant
and so genius. So I can hear that on that record.
I can hear that still now. I can hear like sonically,
the way that they've played was absolutely perfect. I can
still hear what I was hearing back then. I think
once during that time, the producer and I a lovely
(16:09):
friend and Chris lindsay, I think we had asked the
sessional players if we could do a live take without
a click, and it didn't make any difference, It really didn't.
The drummer was the drummer was a human metronome, you know.
(16:29):
He did not like go anywhere away from that original beat.
He was just there on the money, on the beat perfectly,
and you could not tell the difference between that take
and the others.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Spent so much money on that education and it paid off.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
And then well the thing is that, you know, that
was a very unique thing for him. I mean, like,
that's that's the dream, right, I can still I can
speak for I mean, I would say most drummers, outside
of obviously being a kick ass drummer and having your
and developing your own style, you want to be in time.
It's like the most important thing. It's like the number
one requirement. And he nailed it. I mean, he was
(17:09):
he was a human. Unfortunately, we just wanted something a
bit you know, well vibe or whatever. But he did
his job as far.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
As a great job. I don't even know how to
hold drumstick.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
So we needed you, we needed you, and we didn't know.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Damn it missed opportunity.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Emily.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Oh well, you know they tell you got to put
in your ten thousand hours, and I don't know if
that's true anymore.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I always I'm always amazed by like slide guitarist. That
blows my mind because I don't even know how you
begin to learn that.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah, it's a whole other I feel the same way.
I mean I think that I think it's sometimes I
think that unless it's the piano, you know, on the piano,
at least you can it's going to require the same
amount of time than any other instrument to get good
at it. Obviously, it's not a walk in the park.
At Least the piano you can sit down, or a
(18:00):
child can sit down when they're young, and they can
kind of kind of plunk away and make nice sounds.
Maybe note at a time. Things like the guitar, you
can't really do that. I mean, you need to learn
your chords, and learning chords is an absolute can be
an absolute pain to do because you're basically retraining your
hand to bend in ways and places that you've never
thought you handle your risk. Could it's slide guitar. Yeah,
(18:23):
it's a whole nother, whole nother thing.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
No idea. I always felt sorry for my parents when
I was younger, like practicing the violin, because the violin
takets you years to sound good. Yes, bless them putting
up with my awful screeching.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, it's an unfortunate sound whilst people are trying to
get good at the violin that's speaking.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
At least you weren't trying to play like the theremin
or something you know that is no, oh Haley, it's
that thing.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
It's this thing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
It's like shapes like this and you move your hands
and it sounds like a science fiction movie.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
But all based on like, oh, I.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Do you know what you mean? But I didn't know
that's what it was called.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Played one of those just took us to a really
dorky place that is quite tobby. What do you think
it is about your inherent personality or ways that you've
grounded train yourself to act in certain ways that makes
you successful in music? Like do you think you have
(19:25):
something inherent or something you had to work really hard
at that is what makes you able to achieve like
goals that so many people don't.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
First of all, like, I mean, that's a really nice
to hear, nice thing to hear. I wouldn't think of
myself as someone that is that is in that way,
but I suppose it's It's always different when you're looking
out in my mind, like there are so many things
that I wish you know, like that certain songs were bigger,
(19:55):
or that you've done bigger venues. And but I suppose
in my scenario, I would say that quite a lot
of I mean becoming quite resilient and dealing with quite
a lot of rejection. I mean, until twenty nineteen, I
(20:19):
hadn't really thought about releasing music again. I'd gone through
or had so many different kind of working musical relationships
with different people and felt like, at quite a young age,
I was let down quite a lot, unintentionally but certainly
let down and left to kind of pick myself up
(20:39):
again and try and believe that you know it was
it made me. The whole creation and releasing of music
made me happier and not sadder. So I'd say resilience,
thick skinned, and then really at the end of the day,
kind of listening to your gut and listening to what
(21:00):
kind of artists do you want to be? I remember
kind of someone trying to force certain songs onto me
for me to kind of songs that I'd written or
i'd co written with people, the songs that didn't really
represent me but maybe would have been right for the
kind of the trend at the time. And after doing that,
(21:20):
for kind of a year or two and then kind
of came out of it. It was just really really unmotivated,
and it took my wife to kind of say to me,
you know, you need to release some music that you
want to release, because there's no world in which you
can go on without releasing music. I think the moment
that I actually listened to myself and went what kind
of song do I want to release? What kind of
(21:41):
song do I want to record in the studio? And
I don't have to ask anyone's permission, you know, what
do I want to do? The moment I did that,
things started going the way I wanted them to go.
And it was the first time I ever did that,
and it was amazing. It doesn't mean that all the
years of like working with people that maybe that weren't
didn't end U quite right, or working on songs that
(22:02):
weren't right for me, It doesn't mean that any of
that was a waste. I think actually the reality is
that all of that was needed to build up to
this position where I felt like I could kind of
make decisions that anyone else interfering. You know, I needed
all of those experiences. My grandfather used to say nothing
you liked is wasted and I do believe that. But
(22:25):
at the end of the day, listening to myself and
not going, oh yeah, but will that song be successful
or is that the current trend or is that right
for radio whatever? That has kind of been my way
to creative freedom and happiness.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
After you get rejection and you take that moment to
not feel good about it, what do you tell yourself
to get out of that spot?
Speaker 4 (22:50):
I think you. I think you have to just know,
even if you don't know, you just have to know
that you will make it work. I found it like
the rejection that I found in music has been a
very different type of rejection to my acting. In acting,
it's yes or no, you get very close, you don't
get it. You know you're maybe you're one of two
(23:11):
hundred and you get out the last two. And maybe
that happens once in a year, or maybe it happens
multiple times, or maybe the rejection is like you came
in once and you just weren't right. So it's quite
black and white in that sense, and some ways harder
and some ways easier to get over. But at least
it's quite like transparent, you know, I think with music
(23:32):
the rejection that I'm talking about is like rejection in
terms of people in relationships and people that once maybe
guided you or took you under their wing and helps you.
And luckily I've never worked with I haven't really worked
with anyone that's been nasty to me. You know, everyone's
I believe it's had good intent. But the rejection that
I'm talking about is kind of things coming to an
end and maybe not looking after a young person where
(23:55):
they're like, you know, young in the right way. And
I think that so that of rejection is like has
been more like end of chapters kind of rejection, and
so that I think is probably a lot has been
a lot more difficult, or it certainly was a few
years ago, and getting over it took a while, you know,
(24:16):
personal right, oh completely, yeah, It's just it is personal
and no one's once again like, no one's doing it
to help you. It's just how life goes sometimes but
very difficult and basically a lot of time kind of
searching to in yourself, going you know, do you know
I do something wrong? Am I wrong? Am I good enough?
(24:36):
Maybe I'm not cut out for this. And in my case,
the only real time I got over all of that
was when I started releasing my music independently in twenty nineteen,
because I'd had a few years where I've been still writing,
working with multiple different people in studios, hadn't released something
since twenty thirty or fourteen, and so you know, I'd
(24:59):
had like a five year hiatus from releasing stuff, and
a part of me felt like, oh, I can't do
this on my own, or I can't go and pay
for the studio time and record songs and put it out
because it won't be good enough. And actually doing that
and being forced to do it by my wife and
family and friends and go and record that, goan released
(25:19):
that and doing it in twenty nineteen and taking it
into my hands was the most liberating king I've probably
ever experienced, because it was like, oh wow, like, no,
I have a voice, you know, and oh, I was right,
like I can do this. I'm good at this. I
do have a skill set within this and no different
to Midnight, one of my songs that I ended up
(25:42):
going to one of my sisters to feature one that
was a song that I had two years before I released,
recorded and released it. I'd never really produced something solely
on my own I had co produced before with brilliant producers,
but I never produced something on my own and recording
most of the parts on my own. And that was
a song that was the first song I ever wrote, performed,
(26:06):
and produced solely. I had a brilliant old musical friend.
He was a brilliant engineer as a studio down the road.
He was incredibly you know, giving and helpful. But I
produced that song, and I laid it out and I
structured it, and it ended up being, you know, the
so far, my most successful song. And so that again
(26:29):
is another step of feeling liberated. You know, that's like wow,
you know that's I didn't count on I mean, obviously
I counted on people, of course I did, But I
thought that my bones of that song was a really
special song. When I first started writing it, and as
I started producing it, I had an incredibly clear image
in my head. It had taken me two years to
(26:50):
imagine and not want to waste that song. So I
spent two years imagining it, kind of manifesting it, thinking
about it, thinking about a piano part, and I get
our part and our peasure at the beginning, you know,
all these bits and bobs and the choral effect of
my voices doubled up, and so for it to come
out do well and people respond to it so positively,
(27:11):
I would say, it's it's those moments that get you
through all the stuff that was dragging me down.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, it's interesting to hear about the process of that
song because it just it seeks with authenticity.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
It's interesting to say it because I feel like that
and listening to that, because it's got like, it's got
chapters to it. It's not a normal structure. And also
the truth is that you're right, because that is the
case with it. You know. I had a chorus and
I had the beginning bit. When I came to come
and record it, it was over a month and I've
(27:44):
never recorded a song like this, but I would. It
was after second lockdown in England, as in Oxford. I
went down to the studio, I booked an hour, I
put the guitar part down. I came back a week later,
I did one hour. I did like seven or eight
one hour chunks and I led up like that and
so I was kind of like finding it as I
was going along.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's a journey.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's a journey too, right.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
We ask our guests if there was ever a time
in your career that specifically sticks out where you are
in a situation, and it can be it can be
a scary situation, a hilarious situation, of confusing situation where
you're just like what am I doing in pursuit of
(28:41):
my goal?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
The first thing that kind of springs to mine is
I can I remember. I can't remember it was full,
but I remember doing an audition for something. I remember
it was important at the time, so it was I
don't know if EDA came up, but it was meant
to be something quite big with a big team. And
I remember like going to this audition kind of having
to fall on my knee is scream and cry and
(29:03):
do it all whilst shouting in Latin. And I remember
even being like directed after I did my first take,
and the first take was weird enough anyway, I was like,
what am I doing? Like I know this is acting,
but I'm screaming and crying. I don't really even know
what I'm saying, and that's never good. Yeah, And I
(29:24):
think I even remember even like some of the direction
was was was kind of like it felt at the
times that they contrady think it wasn't. It was just
because I was just like I just lost myself and
this I think I was. I think I was meant
to be screaming and crying in Latin and screaming at
and none. So that was probably one of them that
was like a real like what is going on here?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
You know, there was a big boom of of like
poltergeisty None movies, a sack or not even a few
years a while ago. I'm like that. I feel like
a lot of those auditions were very similar to what
you're describing.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Sure, And then the other one probably was like probably recently,
I think in I did a tour last year my
brilliant band. My wife was with me and we basically
we've done this tour of like ten dates and we
had ended up in Glasgow, which is like nauseus UK.
(30:21):
How many hours where are you Hayley about to the worlds.
You're in Leeds, and how far is Glasgow from Leeds?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I'd say it's about seven hour.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Drive, maybe eight seven hour drives. Okay, so Glasgow is
seven hours from you. Wow, I'm going it must be
far so in Scotland for me, it's like year from me.
It's like yeah, so Glasgow is in Scotland, and it's like, well,
let's look it up. How far is it from here?
It's a long time. Let's google map it. Let's google
(30:53):
map it. For the sake of the.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Story, can you also tell me how long do we
take to bike and walk?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
We actually can do that. That's now, let's listen do
it for the sake of the podcast. It's really important
we know how how long it takes towards to Glasgow.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Is only seven and a half hours?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, how are you seven hours? Yeah? Anyway that we
basically we did this. Yeah, I must the other pee
break Toby, so minus minus minus six hours as well. Okay,
basically the point is and it takes a day to
cycle and five days to walk.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Okay, so five day walk.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
So basically to basically finished, we finished this gig in
Glasgow and I think I had to like wake we
had to wake up to move the car at five
o'clock in the morning or six olck in the morning,
and we've gone out. It was like the last night.
It was like the last gig of the tour in England,
and and we've finished finished in Glasgow and Scotland, and
(31:54):
I had to wake up at like six olk in
the morning and we went to bed at five and
I remember we had to get into and then basically
move the van. Couldn't find a park place to park
it for like two hours, so just like driving around
Glasgow and then with me and one of my bandmates
and then I think we had to lead it about
(32:14):
two hours later. And I don't know why. I feel
like it took us like forty hours to come home.
And I remember thinking like all in the name of music,
you know, like that was one of the most sleep
length kind of Yeah. I don't know why so long,
Probably just because we'd stopped off so many times, but
that was one of those ms is like how am
I doing?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So when you have tall locations like one here and
then one down here, and then you're going back up
here again. That's bits of tours where they're just all
over the place.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Absolute nightmare. Yeah, it's a It's tricky, isn't it. It's
tricky with your acting. Have you done theater as well
as film stuff?
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I haven't done any the I'd love to do some theater,
but I haven't done any yet.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I didn't know if you'd follow your mom a little bit.
I've met your mom, have you?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, I'm hoping this is true, because I'm sure it is.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Yeah, so let me what this sounds? This or what?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Infinitum?
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Oh my words? No really she still does no, no, no,
So my mom went to a train.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah. Look, she's a dance lady, isn't she she is?
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Yeah, this is mental dance. Is a dance lady. Yeah, no,
that's true. My work, which she and what's your what's
I don't know? If I meant asking.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Where we talk about which of your family members you've met?
Speaker 4 (33:47):
You would you remember?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
You probably won't she They told the show and they
went to the what is now called the Leaves Playhouse,
but it was the West Yorkshire Playhouse and now it's
doing some she directs in there at the time, so
I was helping them do their get in. When was
this It must have been twenties, seven sixties somewhere around then.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Oh no, I don't no, I don't think my mom.
Let don't know it was my mom.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, we'll cut all this out then.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
I mean it might be and like i'd be gobslacks,
but she hasn't. I don't. I don't think she's I
think it was.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
His mom because I'm sure she's I'm sure.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Is you might be right. I mean I don't think
I didn't. I hadn't. I didn't think my mom had
acted since she was like fifteen.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
She wasn't in it.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Oh right, I think she was dire Okay, Okay, I
was going to say my mum acted like ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Oh no, no, no, she was part of the production.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Wow. Okay, No, you might very much. You might very
well be right. I'm going to ask you. Okay, I'm
gonna ask her.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
This a longer journey than Glasicuta leads the.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Store I know from well, from Scotland down wants food.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Like I could be wrong, but I'm sure she was
like the movement director of the piece.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
I'm gonna ask it. What also, what a what a
cliffhanger for listeners?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I know, I'm sure they're fascinated. I know your mom.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
What a cliffhanger? And it could just be called just
be called Toby's mom mom.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Wow, Well, we'll put it on, We'll put the clip
up and we'll see, we'll see what Emily's like.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
For God's sake, how are we gonna?
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, I'm a video editor, Toby. So on my head,
I'm always like I'm editing right now.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
In my brain she's already messaged me numerous times, Toby
to tell me to change my position, and in my chest.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Listen, it makes the difference.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Okay, I'm glad that we've just had I'm glad that
we've just had a fifteen minute segment that can't be used.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Oh no, it'll be used, trust me. Well, I've got editing.
I know what's going to happen here.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I've got to say, I've got editing. I'll out for
this one.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I got editing, all right.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Oh dear right, I'm moving us on.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
I'm moving us on.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
What's your definition of making it? What does it mean
to you?
Speaker 4 (36:22):
I suppose like making it would probably be the thing
that you've chosen to do his work, or the thing
that you've chosen to do is work. Maybe if you
can enjoy it at the same time, that would be
my idea of making it. I feel like my idea
of success and like making it has changed a lot.
When I left school, I had like such ridiculous kind
(36:42):
of aims, which was healthy to dream big. But my
problem is is that I didn't allow myself. I didn't
think about like anything other than that thing coming true,
being a success, which is which is wrong. It's totally
I think unhealthy. And so for me making it has
(37:04):
probably become less about like things that when you're young,
maybe you think about where a lot of people think
about you making loads of money and whatever. For me,
it's more just being able to do what I love
to do and getting and having enough time to spend
time with the ones that do you want to spend
time with. I suppose it's a.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Huge disservice that I feel like university is due to
students or whatever age you were at that this was happening,
where they're like, it's in the arts specifically, like if
you want to be a doctor, please go to medical school.
But like I think, I think that a lot of
times it's like, oh, you want to direct, here's how
like the Terminology, and you can make a student film
(37:43):
and then you're going to go do it, and there's
not like any gap of like you're going to also
work in retail and you're going to do this other stuff.
I did interview over the weekend for about our podcast.
Someone reached out to do an interview and we finished
the whole hour interview and then she was like, oh, okay,
well our readers are mainly college based, and I was like, wait,
(38:03):
can I say something else? And then I backtracked it.
I was like, there's gonna be so much stuff that's
not it, that's gonna inadvertently get you, like read what
it is and get you to where you need to
be going, because yeah, I went to a to an
arts college or I was in an arts department and
(38:23):
it was very much like here are the four jobs,
film and kick one and days out and then you
leave and you're like, why am I working at the mall?
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Like yeah, failure, Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I just think that like there's a lot of there's
a lot of pressure to like fit within a slot
kind of in society job wise, and actually, at the
end of the day, if you want to work in
hospitality and that kind of does it for you, or
you want to I don't know, you want to work
in tackle, you would be an artist. Like if you
(38:57):
can kind of enjoy it. I think being competition, if
it's a level of being competitive, is healthy, but if
you can kind of not allow that to destroy your
whole being and your whole kind of purpose in life
and kind of do something that you love for a living.
I think that would be my idea of making it.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, you need time to develop that, like being comfortable
with your own authenticity as well. I think absolutely. I
think I thought I was writing authentically in my twenties,
but I don't think I was. I was writing to
sell it, like you were saying earlier about like writing
music that you think is going to be popular at
(39:41):
the time, that's going to be somewhere. And it takes time,
doesn't it to get to that level of authenticity.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Absolutely, to find your voice as well.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
So if you had to get of a chapter title
to your career so far, what would that be?
Speaker 4 (40:05):
It would probably be like you sat here singing what
jobs next?
Speaker 2 (40:09):
That's great, it's imagery, but it's what it expects of you, Toby.
A picture.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Nothing less from the from the son of the mom
that you think you met.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
That one time I met you.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
It's impressing. And to talk to you about.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
This this is like also like do you guys have
How I Met your mother? This is like an extent,
an extension of that show.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Oh boy, yeah, yeah, I feel that chapter title you
eventually write the book.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Yeah, when you eventually write the book, a book basically
filled all these titles.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, it's going to be it's going to be the
person and the title, and then that's Forrie and summary
of what came out of the interview.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
It's gonna be.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I'm not a book editor, so we'll have to That's
what that one's on.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
You hate or actually maybe it'd be like maybe instead
of you sat here singing what jobs next, would be
sat here singing what comes next? What comes next? Less
job and more just like what's coming?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, I reckon it was the development in the MLA,
but just decides on the title development.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
There's a dot, there's there's hashtag, there's parentheses there.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
Okay, yeah, uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
One person had read the notes before the interview and
had it on top of mind. Everyone else has been
mess in the best way.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
But yeah, but your start is specific to jobs and
then opened up like.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, it's very symbolic.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Yeah it worked a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
Thank you for having you. Thank you so much. I'm
gonna get speak to my mom right now.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
How to make It is recorded from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley Muralidarn. For full length
videos of our episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel at
how to Make It Podcast. For more adventures with Emily
and Haley. Follow us on Instagram at how to Make
(42:32):
It Podcast, where you'll find clips from today's episode, mini
episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like and subscribe to
our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever other fine
podcasts are found.
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
May that made us sound so much more serious than
we actually are?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Should we switch roles on this time? Okay, see that's
the intro.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Hi, my name is Toby, and I want to be
a musician. And I grew up wanted to be a
policeman as well.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It's not a combo of the two.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
I also there are lots of things I want to.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Be and what what carved away to make it stay
as a.
Speaker 4 (01:04):
Musician, probably encouragement from my family when I even when
I sounded judgeful.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's that's always nice and rare.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I feel like, yeah, I think so, yeah, I think
I think there probably was a lot of putting up
with some not so good, it's not so nice, kind
of screechy sounding music from all of us siblings. But hey,
good on, mom and dad.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, you've got to let the bad stuff out for
the good stuff to come in, haven't you You've gotta
you've gotta.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
Do the Yeah, it's true. There's a whole process.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Were you like the kid after school playing really loud
music in your parents' house. I'm thinking of Freaky Friday
with Lindsay Little Hand where the parents are screaming at
her to start playing guitar.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
I wasn't playing probably music really loud, but I was
probably certainly playing music just sport really loud, thinking it
was really cool. I remember buying I think my first ever,
my first I can remember it because I just i'd
like help my mum and dad over like a couple
of weekends, a few weekends or something. I got given
this little CD player and which, like you look back,
(02:17):
this thing would have been awful now that we were
also used to having like listening to music so easy.
But I my first I think my first ever CD
was like was crazy Town Butterfly. I remember like running
around in my bedroom. Yeah, like at nine, such an innocent,
(02:38):
like innocent good boy, running around thinking I was you know,
I was, I was worthy of wrapping these lyrics and
my lady basically you have a Butterfly sugar baby. Yeah,
my sister and I would do that. That was a
whole act.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
How do we make.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Don't think you can. It's impossible to clarify. You would
want to see it as him as an adult. Let's
not say you want to see a nine year old.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
No, I don't want to see that. No, I just
want to I want to see it now, but never mine.
Just for the record, just for the record, just check.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Uh. We move into a section where we tell you
two random facts that we found out about you on
the internet. I have to say you seem to be
a biopic pro because you've played two very iconic people,
Andrea Agassi and Andrea Bocelli. I like, I feel like
(03:41):
people aim to do that once in their career, and
you've done it twice now early on, I'm wondering what
that experience was like for you.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Well, first of all, I don't think. I like, it's
not usual at all. Normally you build up to the
bier pic, you know, like you know, forty plus or
something after you've been working for twenty years. I think
that the truth is is that playing and was based
on account of his life, in his words, based on
(04:12):
a book that he wrote. But Agathy was it was
kind of a reimagining of his love life with Stephanie Graff,
so it wasn't actually based on his book. I mean
I read his book when I'd got the role, when
I was kind of in contention for the role. I
think if it had been if it was probably incredibly
accurate to his actual life and it was really based
(04:34):
on his book, I probably would have been I probably
wouldn't need to be really convinced to do it, because
it would have been a really scary, daunting you know,
to play two different people, not more truthfully is the
wrong way of saying, but you know, like based on
their actual lives and every single thing is exactly as
it was. Whereas because the Agacy script was kind of like,
(04:59):
you know, an idea of what was going on in
their love life and everything, that made it kind of
less scary.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I suppose, yeah, like based on yeah, it.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Was like yeah, still it is still both a lot
of fun.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, still very impressive and very cool and a big
task to take on.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Yeah, they were.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
For playing and playing another person, like a real person
rather somebody fictional.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Lots of watching, lots of reading, I think with I
found that the I'd say that the I'd say that
the prep process for and was easier in the sense
that there's there was a lot more a lot more
film with him that I could find on Dragacy, there's
you know, there's lots of bits. But I think that
(05:52):
because he has always lived a more private life, and
although he's a private man in many ways, he's kind
of more in the pop image, So I found more
basically more footage of him. But yeah, lots of watching,
lots of reading, and lots of listening to their voices.
(06:13):
The voice, finding the voice. I think finding the voice
can really set you up well as an actor, especially
when you're you know, when you're trying to play someone
or you're portraying someone. That voice is so important because
the sound of the voice can also end up dictating
how you end up using your mouth to be Like,
then if you just kind of in my experience, when
(06:36):
I've just tried to follow someone's facial expressions, if I
haven't kind of really understood what that the voice sounds
like and how it goes up and down or how
melodic it is, it kind of doesn't it's it's not
very fluid.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I imagine that kind of leaks into your entire body
as well, once you've kind of nailed that part for sure.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yeah, because they kind of they go hand in hand.
You can't really have one without the other. But you
have to just have to know your stuff. Really just
listen and listen and listen and listen. But it's a
lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
If the voice is wrong, you can also be like
that is It takes you out of it because you're like,
that's I know that person's voice and that is not
at all what they sound like exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah. My fact is that you used to live in Spain.
Tell me about Spain, Toby, Did you grow up in Spain?
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Spain? I lived there for three years. Yeah, move and
I was like seven and we all moved as a family.
We lived there for three years. We would go back
to another four years after we moved back to England.
Very very rich memories. Some of the greatest memories I
have were those years of childhood, very free, very warm.
(07:52):
My dad was we were there the three years that
we lived with. My dad was still running he's a
restaurant to and he's still running his restaurants in good
at the time, so he was the first year he
was doing one week in Spain and three weeks in Oxford.
Second year it was two and two. In the third
year it was one week in Oxford in three weeks
in Spain. So it kind of flipped, and that meant
(08:16):
that all the times that he came over, obviously time
was limited and there wasn't a lot of it to
see my mum or to see us children. So we
were you know, he was like, well he is, he
always has been, you know, the best father. But because
the time I think was so limited, the times that
we did have him with him, we were every single weekend.
(08:37):
We were motorbiking and fishing and just living a very
fun full life.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
See, I love Spain, gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I am so uncultured. I'm like I've been. I visited
Hailey Ones in English.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Spain is amazing. My wife is from Spain and well
she's English but also pretty much Spanish, and we spend
a huge amount of time there. It's an amazing place. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Now for people, okay, people from the UK, does going
to Spain seem like less of a huge deal than
when I think of going to Spain. Okay, yeah, that
helps me feel a little bit better. Because Haley, when
you're like, oh, I went to Ireland yesterday, I'm like,
could you like what.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
It's forty minutes on a plane?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Okay, well then I mean but yeah, forty minutes from
a plane here is.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Like not that great.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
But I suppose where about to you in the States.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So I'm I'm in New Jersey, Amo, forty minutes outside
of New York City.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
The thing is, America is so big for us. We
are very lucky in the sense that Europe is right there.
We have all of it to explore. And I'm envious
of you for being in America because there are places
in America that I love dearly that I don't get
to see, you know, nowhere near as much as I
(10:02):
as I was. Also Nashville. I love Nashville. Spent a
lot of time in Nashville when I just left school
doing music stuff, and I actually recording an album in
Nashville when I was I think eighteen to twenty, and
so I love it. Not there, I would love to
go back. I haven't been back into back maybe ten years.
(10:23):
I love La I had a lot of fun in La.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Atlanta, all good places.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, but I'm certainly envious of you in the same
way that you are probably a loss.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, I feel better about myself now, so I think
we can move on.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Move on, Kiley, do you want to go first?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Probody, let me do. Yeah, I would like, just like,
let's carry on with your youth a little bit then.
So what music did you grow up listening to?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
We had music playing very loud most days. Both my
parents are big musos. My dad loved Bowie, my mom
loved like Marvin Gay and Al Green. I'd say that
we were growing up listening to Marvin Gay, Al Green,
John Martin, Crowded House, Bowie. The Beatles were a huge
(11:23):
influence in our family, is particularly the Revolver. That album
like Here, There and Everywhere still is one of my
old time favorites. It takes me back to that time
of being in Spain, and we used to have two cars.
We had a in Spain, we had a jeep like
an old beaten up cheap and we had an old
(11:43):
beaten up lundro My parents had got both these cars
that I think they both probably done about two hundred
thousand miles on each of them. They were a good
deal and one of them, the Landrover, we had put
the motorbikes. The motorbikes into the back into the boot
and we would basically drive up to the countryside and
go biking, and then the jeep would do similar things too.
But that album Revolver we it feels like, I mean,
(12:07):
I might be wrong, but I feel like that was
kind of the soundtrack of those three years. So yeah,
equals very important.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, I mean I can hear those kind of vibes
through your work as well, and it like I grew
with that music as well, so it really resonates with me.
And I also do music that kind of tells the story,
and I feel like you're feel like a journey. So
how do you kind of go about weaving those influences
(12:38):
through your music. Does it just seep in naturally or
is it more of a deliberate thing.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I think I think probably the older I get or
the more I write music, it probably becomes more deliberate.
But I think generally on the whole, it's it's never
been intentional. I think for my in my case anyway,
listening to a sound or an artist and being influenced
(13:05):
influenced by the musically, the way that kind of seeps
into my music is that when I next pick up
my guitarro, when I next pick up sit down at
the piano, I start kind of making, you know, my
version of those things. And there are songs like I
was talking to some of the other day. On this
(13:26):
album is a song called Eyes Light Up, the album
title track, and it was not intentional at all. But
when I listened back to that song, now I hear
the influence of John Martin and I hear the Beatles
in it. I wasn't thinking that at all when I
was writing the song, when I sat down, I was
fingerpicking and when I was coming up with that melody.
But I can hear it. It's extremely clear to me
(13:48):
that it's there. So most of the time it's unintentional.
I've never really sat down or maybe once or twice
it gone, I want to write this side of song
because it just doesn't work like that.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, it's so interesting to me, Like how that kind
of thing comes about. Does where you record make any difference?
Because you said you recorded that album in Nashville that
woe when younger, Like, can you hear the Nashville in it?
Like some people are really influenced by where they record,
aren't they.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Yeah, I can I can. There are definitely things of
that first album that I can hear. It's less of
a genre thing and more of it's like the way
that the instruments are played in that Fiel. One of
our biggest problems that we came into. I mean, I
was so young, so I'd already had a few years
of experience of like music studios, but in terms of production,
(14:40):
you know, I knew what I liked, I knew and
I didn't like. And also there was a lot of
uncertainty there too, because I felt like I didn't have
a leg to stand on in many ways when I
was working with people that were in their forties and
were doing it for twenty years. But the biggest thing
that I can hear is something that I remember experiencing
at the time, which was that everything sounded so perfect
because the musicians that I was working with in Nashville,
(15:03):
and most of them really are so kind of on
top of their game and so unbelievably brilliant that there's
a very little room for imperfection. It's not one. It's
not only that they aim to not have any imperfections.
I think also like some of them are incapable of
it really because the culture, at least when I was there,
(15:24):
that people would come in for a session and they
would just bang out. If you came in as a
session guitarist, you came as a drummer, you'd just come
in and you'd bang out maybe six songs in a day,
which is normal, like you do that in London too,
But there was a level of precision that I hadn't
seen before, and so our problem at the time was
like we wanted to make it a bit more rough
around the edges, and that was kind of impossible to
(15:46):
do with those musicians because they were just so brilliant
and so genius. So I can hear that on that record.
I can hear that still now. I can hear like sonically,
the way that they've played was absolutely perfect. I can
still hear what I was hearing back then. I think
once during that time, the producer and I a lovely
(16:09):
friend and Chris lindsay, I think we had asked the
sessional players if we could do a live take without
a click, and it didn't make any difference, It really didn't.
The drummer was the drummer was a human metronome, you know.
(16:29):
He did not like go anywhere away from that original beat.
He was just there on the money, on the beat perfectly,
and you could not tell the difference between that take
and the others.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Spent so much money on that education and it paid off.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
And then well the thing is that, you know, that
was a very unique thing for him. I mean, like,
that's that's the dream, right, I can still I can
speak for I mean, I would say most drummers, outside
of obviously being a kick ass drummer and having your
and developing your own style, you want to be in time.
It's like the most important thing. It's like the number
one requirement. And he nailed it. I mean, he was
(17:09):
he was a human. Unfortunately, we just wanted something a
bit you know, well vibe or whatever. But he did
his job as far.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
As a great job. I don't even know how to
hold drumstick.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
So we needed you, we needed you, and we didn't know.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Damn it missed opportunity.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Emily.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Oh well, you know they tell you got to put
in your ten thousand hours, and I don't know if
that's true anymore.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I always I'm always amazed by like slide guitarist. That
blows my mind because I don't even know how you
begin to learn that.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
Yeah, it's a whole other I feel the same way.
I mean I think that I think it's sometimes I
think that unless it's the piano, you know, on the piano,
at least you can it's going to require the same
amount of time than any other instrument to get good
at it. Obviously, it's not a walk in the park.
At Least the piano you can sit down, or a
(18:00):
child can sit down when they're young, and they can
kind of kind of plunk away and make nice sounds.
Maybe note at a time. Things like the guitar, you
can't really do that. I mean, you need to learn
your chords, and learning chords is an absolute can be
an absolute pain to do because you're basically retraining your
hand to bend in ways and places that you've never
thought you handle your risk. Could it's slide guitar. Yeah,
(18:23):
it's a whole nother, whole nother thing.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
No idea. I always felt sorry for my parents when
I was younger, like practicing the violin, because the violin
takets you years to sound good. Yes, bless them putting
up with my awful screeching.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, it's an unfortunate sound whilst people are trying to
get good at the violin that's speaking.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
At least you weren't trying to play like the theremin
or something you know that is no, oh Haley, it's
that thing.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
It's this thing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
It's like shapes like this and you move your hands
and it sounds like a science fiction movie.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
But all based on like, oh, I.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Do you know what you mean? But I didn't know
that's what it was called.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Played one of those just took us to a really
dorky place that is quite tobby. What do you think
it is about your inherent personality or ways that you've
grounded train yourself to act in certain ways that makes
you successful in music? Like do you think you have
(19:25):
something inherent or something you had to work really hard
at that is what makes you able to achieve like
goals that so many people don't.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
First of all, like, I mean, that's a really nice
to hear, nice thing to hear. I wouldn't think of
myself as someone that is that is in that way,
but I suppose it's It's always different when you're looking
out in my mind, like there are so many things
that I wish you know, like that certain songs were bigger,
(19:55):
or that you've done bigger venues. And but I suppose
in my scenario, I would say that quite a lot
of I mean becoming quite resilient and dealing with quite
a lot of rejection. I mean, until twenty nineteen, I
(20:19):
hadn't really thought about releasing music again. I'd gone through
or had so many different kind of working musical relationships
with different people and felt like, at quite a young age,
I was let down quite a lot, unintentionally but certainly
let down and left to kind of pick myself up
(20:39):
again and try and believe that you know it was
it made me. The whole creation and releasing of music
made me happier and not sadder. So I'd say resilience,
thick skinned, and then really at the end of the day,
kind of listening to your gut and listening to what
(21:00):
kind of artists do you want to be? I remember
kind of someone trying to force certain songs onto me
for me to kind of songs that I'd written or
i'd co written with people, the songs that didn't really
represent me but maybe would have been right for the
kind of the trend at the time. And after doing that,
(21:20):
for kind of a year or two and then kind
of came out of it. It was just really really unmotivated,
and it took my wife to kind of say to me,
you know, you need to release some music that you
want to release, because there's no world in which you
can go on without releasing music. I think the moment
that I actually listened to myself and went what kind
of song do I want to release? What kind of
(21:41):
song do I want to record in the studio? And
I don't have to ask anyone's permission, you know, what
do I want to do? The moment I did that,
things started going the way I wanted them to go.
And it was the first time I ever did that,
and it was amazing. It doesn't mean that all the
years of like working with people that maybe that weren't
didn't end U quite right, or working on songs that
(22:02):
weren't right for me, It doesn't mean that any of
that was a waste. I think actually the reality is
that all of that was needed to build up to
this position where I felt like I could kind of
make decisions that anyone else interfering. You know, I needed
all of those experiences. My grandfather used to say nothing
you liked is wasted and I do believe that. But
(22:25):
at the end of the day, listening to myself and
not going, oh yeah, but will that song be successful
or is that the current trend or is that right
for radio whatever? That has kind of been my way
to creative freedom and happiness.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
After you get rejection and you take that moment to
not feel good about it, what do you tell yourself
to get out of that spot?
Speaker 4 (22:50):
I think you. I think you have to just know,
even if you don't know, you just have to know
that you will make it work. I found it like
the rejection that I found in music has been a
very different type of rejection to my acting. In acting,
it's yes or no, you get very close, you don't
get it. You know you're maybe you're one of two
(23:11):
hundred and you get out the last two. And maybe
that happens once in a year, or maybe it happens
multiple times, or maybe the rejection is like you came
in once and you just weren't right. So it's quite
black and white in that sense, and some ways harder
and some ways easier to get over. But at least
it's quite like transparent, you know, I think with music
(23:32):
the rejection that I'm talking about is like rejection in
terms of people in relationships and people that once maybe
guided you or took you under their wing and helps you.
And luckily I've never worked with I haven't really worked
with anyone that's been nasty to me. You know, everyone's
I believe it's had good intent. But the rejection that
I'm talking about is kind of things coming to an
end and maybe not looking after a young person where
(23:55):
they're like, you know, young in the right way. And
I think that so that of rejection is like has
been more like end of chapters kind of rejection, and
so that I think is probably a lot has been
a lot more difficult, or it certainly was a few
years ago, and getting over it took a while, you know,
(24:16):
personal right, oh completely, yeah, It's just it is personal
and no one's once again like, no one's doing it
to help you. It's just how life goes sometimes but
very difficult and basically a lot of time kind of
searching to in yourself, going you know, do you know
I do something wrong? Am I wrong? Am I good enough?
(24:36):
Maybe I'm not cut out for this. And in my case,
the only real time I got over all of that
was when I started releasing my music independently in twenty nineteen,
because I'd had a few years where I've been still writing,
working with multiple different people in studios, hadn't released something
since twenty thirty or fourteen, and so you know, I'd
(24:59):
had like a five year hiatus from releasing stuff, and
a part of me felt like, oh, I can't do
this on my own, or I can't go and pay
for the studio time and record songs and put it out
because it won't be good enough. And actually doing that
and being forced to do it by my wife and
family and friends and go and record that, goan released
(25:19):
that and doing it in twenty nineteen and taking it
into my hands was the most liberating king I've probably
ever experienced, because it was like, oh wow, like, no,
I have a voice, you know, and oh, I was right,
like I can do this. I'm good at this. I
do have a skill set within this and no different
to Midnight, one of my songs that I ended up
(25:42):
going to one of my sisters to feature one that
was a song that I had two years before I released,
recorded and released it. I'd never really produced something solely
on my own I had co produced before with brilliant producers,
but I never produced something on my own and recording
most of the parts on my own. And that was
a song that was the first song I ever wrote, performed,
(26:06):
and produced solely. I had a brilliant old musical friend.
He was a brilliant engineer as a studio down the road.
He was incredibly you know, giving and helpful. But I
produced that song, and I laid it out and I
structured it, and it ended up being, you know, the
so far, my most successful song. And so that again
(26:29):
is another step of feeling liberated. You know, that's like wow,
you know that's I didn't count on I mean, obviously
I counted on people, of course I did, But I
thought that my bones of that song was a really
special song. When I first started writing it, and as
I started producing it, I had an incredibly clear image
in my head. It had taken me two years to
(26:50):
imagine and not want to waste that song. So I
spent two years imagining it, kind of manifesting it, thinking
about it, thinking about a piano part, and I get
our part and our peasure at the beginning, you know,
all these bits and bobs and the choral effect of
my voices doubled up, and so for it to come
out do well and people respond to it so positively,
(27:11):
I would say, it's it's those moments that get you
through all the stuff that was dragging me down.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, it's interesting to hear about the process of that
song because it just it seeks with authenticity.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
It's interesting to say it because I feel like that
and listening to that, because it's got like, it's got
chapters to it. It's not a normal structure. And also
the truth is that you're right, because that is the
case with it. You know. I had a chorus and
I had the beginning bit. When I came to come
and record it, it was over a month and I've
(27:44):
never recorded a song like this, but I would. It
was after second lockdown in England, as in Oxford. I
went down to the studio, I booked an hour, I
put the guitar part down. I came back a week later,
I did one hour. I did like seven or eight
one hour chunks and I led up like that and
so I was kind of like finding it as I
was going along.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, it's a journey.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's a journey too, right.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
We ask our guests if there was ever a time
in your career that specifically sticks out where you are
in a situation, and it can be it can be
a scary situation, a hilarious situation, of confusing situation where
you're just like what am I doing in pursuit of
(28:41):
my goal?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
The first thing that kind of springs to mine is
I can I remember. I can't remember it was full,
but I remember doing an audition for something. I remember
it was important at the time, so it was I
don't know if EDA came up, but it was meant
to be something quite big with a big team. And
I remember like going to this audition kind of having
to fall on my knee is scream and cry and
(29:03):
do it all whilst shouting in Latin. And I remember
even being like directed after I did my first take,
and the first take was weird enough anyway, I was like,
what am I doing? Like I know this is acting,
but I'm screaming and crying. I don't really even know
what I'm saying, and that's never good. Yeah, And I
(29:24):
think I even remember even like some of the direction
was was was kind of like it felt at the
times that they contrady think it wasn't. It was just
because I was just like I just lost myself and
this I think I was. I think I was meant
to be screaming and crying in Latin and screaming at
and none. So that was probably one of them that
was like a real like what is going on here?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
You know, there was a big boom of of like
poltergeisty None movies, a sack or not even a few
years a while ago. I'm like that. I feel like
a lot of those auditions were very similar to what
you're describing.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
Sure, And then the other one probably was like probably recently,
I think in I did a tour last year my
brilliant band. My wife was with me and we basically
we've done this tour of like ten dates and we
had ended up in Glasgow, which is like nauseus UK.
(30:21):
How many hours where are you Hayley about to the worlds.
You're in Leeds, and how far is Glasgow from Leeds?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I'd say it's about seven hour.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Drive, maybe eight seven hour drives. Okay, so Glasgow is
seven hours from you. Wow, I'm going it must be
far so in Scotland for me, it's like year from me.
It's like yeah, so Glasgow is in Scotland, and it's like, well,
let's look it up. How far is it from here?
It's a long time. Let's google map it. Let's google
(30:53):
map it. For the sake of the.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Story, can you also tell me how long do we
take to bike and walk?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
We actually can do that. That's now, let's listen do
it for the sake of the podcast. It's really important
we know how how long it takes towards to Glasgow.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Is only seven and a half hours?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, how are you seven hours? Yeah? Anyway that we
basically we did this. Yeah, I must the other pee
break Toby, so minus minus minus six hours as well. Okay,
basically the point is and it takes a day to
cycle and five days to walk.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Okay, so five day walk.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
So basically to basically finished, we finished this gig in
Glasgow and I think I had to like wake we
had to wake up to move the car at five
o'clock in the morning or six olck in the morning,
and we've gone out. It was like the last night.
It was like the last gig of the tour in England,
and and we've finished finished in Glasgow and Scotland, and
(31:54):
I had to wake up at like six olk in
the morning and we went to bed at five and
I remember we had to get into and then basically
move the van. Couldn't find a park place to park
it for like two hours, so just like driving around
Glasgow and then with me and one of my bandmates
and then I think we had to lead it about
(32:14):
two hours later. And I don't know why. I feel
like it took us like forty hours to come home.
And I remember thinking like all in the name of music,
you know, like that was one of the most sleep
length kind of Yeah. I don't know why so long,
Probably just because we'd stopped off so many times, but
that was one of those ms is like how am
I doing?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So when you have tall locations like one here and
then one down here, and then you're going back up
here again. That's bits of tours where they're just all
over the place.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah, exactly, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Absolute nightmare. Yeah, it's a It's tricky, isn't it. It's
tricky with your acting. Have you done theater as well
as film stuff?
Speaker 4 (32:55):
I haven't done any the I'd love to do some theater,
but I haven't done any yet.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I didn't know if you'd follow your mom a little bit.
I've met your mom, have you?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, I'm hoping this is true, because I'm sure it is.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Yeah, so let me what this sounds? This or what?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Infinitum?
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Oh my words? No really she still does no, no, no,
So my mom went to a train.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah. Look, she's a dance lady, isn't she she is?
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Yeah, this is mental dance. Is a dance lady. Yeah, no,
that's true. My work, which she and what's your what's
I don't know? If I meant asking.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Where we talk about which of your family members you've met?
Speaker 4 (33:47):
You would you remember?
Speaker 2 (33:48):
You probably won't she They told the show and they
went to the what is now called the Leaves Playhouse,
but it was the West Yorkshire Playhouse and now it's
doing some she directs in there at the time, so
I was helping them do their get in. When was
this It must have been twenties, seven sixties somewhere around then.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Oh no, I don't no, I don't think my mom.
Let don't know it was my mom.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, we'll cut all this out then.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
I mean it might be and like i'd be gobslacks,
but she hasn't. I don't. I don't think she's I
think it was.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
His mom because I'm sure she's I'm sure.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Is you might be right. I mean I don't think
I didn't. I hadn't. I didn't think my mom had
acted since she was like fifteen.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
She wasn't in it.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
Oh right, I think she was dire Okay, Okay, I
was going to say my mum acted like ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Oh no, no, no, she was part of the production.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Wow. Okay, No, you might very much. You might very
well be right. I'm going to ask you. Okay, I'm
gonna ask her.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
This a longer journey than Glasicuta leads the.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
Store I know from well, from Scotland down wants food.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Like I could be wrong, but I'm sure she was
like the movement director of the piece.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
I'm gonna ask it. What also, what a what a
cliffhanger for listeners?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I know, I'm sure they're fascinated. I know your mom.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
What a cliffhanger? And it could just be called just
be called Toby's mom mom.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Wow, Well, we'll put it on, We'll put the clip
up and we'll see, we'll see what Emily's like.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
For God's sake, how are we gonna?
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Yeah, I'm a video editor, Toby. So on my head,
I'm always like I'm editing right now.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
In my brain she's already messaged me numerous times, Toby
to tell me to change my position, and in my chest.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Listen, it makes the difference.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Okay, I'm glad that we've just had I'm glad that
we've just had a fifteen minute segment that can't be used.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Oh no, it'll be used, trust me. Well, I've got editing.
I know what's going to happen here.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I've got to say, I've got editing. I'll out for
this one.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
I got editing, all right.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Oh dear right, I'm moving us on.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
I'm moving us on.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
What's your definition of making it? What does it mean
to you?
Speaker 4 (36:22):
I suppose like making it would probably be the thing
that you've chosen to do his work, or the thing
that you've chosen to do is work. Maybe if you
can enjoy it at the same time, that would be
my idea of making it. I feel like my idea
of success and like making it has changed a lot.
When I left school, I had like such ridiculous kind
(36:42):
of aims, which was healthy to dream big. But my
problem is is that I didn't allow myself. I didn't
think about like anything other than that thing coming true,
being a success, which is which is wrong. It's totally
I think unhealthy. And so for me making it has
(37:04):
probably become less about like things that when you're young,
maybe you think about where a lot of people think
about you making loads of money and whatever. For me,
it's more just being able to do what I love
to do and getting and having enough time to spend
time with the ones that do you want to spend
time with. I suppose it's a.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Huge disservice that I feel like university is due to
students or whatever age you were at that this was happening,
where they're like, it's in the arts specifically, like if
you want to be a doctor, please go to medical school.
But like I think, I think that a lot of
times it's like, oh, you want to direct, here's how
like the Terminology, and you can make a student film
(37:43):
and then you're going to go do it, and there's
not like any gap of like you're going to also
work in retail and you're going to do this other stuff.
I did interview over the weekend for about our podcast.
Someone reached out to do an interview and we finished
the whole hour interview and then she was like, oh, okay,
well our readers are mainly college based, and I was like, wait,
(38:03):
can I say something else? And then I backtracked it.
I was like, there's gonna be so much stuff that's
not it, that's gonna inadvertently get you, like read what
it is and get you to where you need to
be going, because yeah, I went to a to an
arts college or I was in an arts department and
(38:23):
it was very much like here are the four jobs,
film and kick one and days out and then you
leave and you're like, why am I working at the mall?
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Like yeah, failure, Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I just think that like there's a lot of there's
a lot of pressure to like fit within a slot
kind of in society job wise, and actually, at the
end of the day, if you want to work in
hospitality and that kind of does it for you, or
you want to I don't know, you want to work
in tackle, you would be an artist. Like if you
(38:57):
can kind of enjoy it. I think being competition, if
it's a level of being competitive, is healthy, but if
you can kind of not allow that to destroy your
whole being and your whole kind of purpose in life
and kind of do something that you love for a living.
I think that would be my idea of making it.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, you need time to develop that, like being comfortable
with your own authenticity as well. I think absolutely. I
think I thought I was writing authentically in my twenties,
but I don't think I was. I was writing to
sell it, like you were saying earlier about like writing
music that you think is going to be popular at
(39:41):
the time, that's going to be somewhere. And it takes time,
doesn't it to get to that level of authenticity.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Absolutely, to find your voice as well.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
So if you had to get of a chapter title
to your career so far, what would that be?
Speaker 4 (40:05):
It would probably be like you sat here singing what
jobs next?
Speaker 2 (40:09):
That's great, it's imagery, but it's what it expects of you, Toby.
A picture.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Nothing less from the from the son of the mom
that you think you met.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
That one time I met you.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
It's impressing. And to talk to you about.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
This this is like also like do you guys have
How I Met your mother? This is like an extent,
an extension of that show.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Oh boy, yeah, yeah, I feel that chapter title you
eventually write the book.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Yeah, when you eventually write the book, a book basically
filled all these titles.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah, it's going to be it's going to be the
person and the title, and then that's Forrie and summary
of what came out of the interview.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
It's gonna be.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I'm not a book editor, so we'll have to That's
what that one's on.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
You hate or actually maybe it'd be like maybe instead
of you sat here singing what jobs next, would be
sat here singing what comes next? What comes next? Less
job and more just like what's coming?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, I reckon it was the development in the MLA,
but just decides on the title development.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
There's a dot, there's there's hashtag, there's parentheses there.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
Okay, yeah, uncertainty.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
One person had read the notes before the interview and
had it on top of mind. Everyone else has been
mess in the best way.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
But yeah, but your start is specific to jobs and
then opened up like.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, it's very symbolic.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
Yeah it worked a lot.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (42:04):
Thank you for having you. Thank you so much. I'm
gonna get speak to my mom right now.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
How to make It is recorded from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley Muralidarn. For full length
videos of our episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel at
how to Make It Podcast. For more adventures with Emily
and Haley. Follow us on Instagram at how to Make
(42:32):
It Podcast, where you'll find clips from today's episode, mini
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