July 8, 2025 • 47 mins
Composer Theodore Shapiro joins Emily to discuss his music career, from projects like The Devil Wears Prada to Marley & Me to Severance. We talk about musical themes in the iconic Severance theme,what it's like to hear your composition played live for the first time, and Theodore's first collaboration with Ben Stiller on The Secret Life of Walter Mitty. Emily cannot contain her excitement for this episode, and we hope you can't either.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It and more importantly, uncover what making it even means.
May that made us sound so much more serious than
we actually are? Should we switch roles on this time? Okay,
see that's the intro. Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My name is Theodore Shapiro, and I wanted to be
an archaeologist when I grew up. Really yeah, I mean
it was purely an Indiana Jones thing. That was a
seminal experience for me as Raiders of the Lost Arks.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, and then What Killed the Dream?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, you know, I mean it's funny because like, as
a kid, I was so captivated by that movie, and yeah,
I saw it so many times. And although you know,
what was the most appealing idea was like being this adventurer,
I also at the same time was very taken with
(01:25):
the music, and I was you know, very sort of
keyed into what John Williams was doing and that you know,
even even in a rudimentary nine year old kind of
a way. I was like, Oh, that theme is so
great and I feel really excited every time I hear it.
So that was it ultimately kind of spurred what I
actually do.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Of Yes, I mean, how yeah, how could it not.
I saw John Williams in concert at the Hollywood Bowl
when I lived in LA and Steven Spielberg hosted, and
they had Stephen ad him play the same scene twice,
once without the score and once with just to demonstrate
(02:08):
how awkward it is. There's a lot of grunting and
footsteps and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It is remarkable when you take the music away sometimes
what a big hole it leaves.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah. Well, normally we'd go into kind of just listing
facts as a way that kind of Haley and I
learn about the guess, but I know so much about
you are that I didn't even need to do that portion.
I've been a fan since God like Marley and me.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Uh wow, Okay, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm a huge score scores, like probably my favorite thing
in the world. So I'm I'm very scity, and you're
the first composer I've ever gotten a.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Have you asked other composers.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I I have, I.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I mean we're not a group.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I don't think so. I think I felt so out
of my league that.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I will I will totally disabuse you of that notion.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I just didn't. But like you're gonna get unfortunately for you,
you're gonna get all my pent up excitement.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Because I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I love it and.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Waiting for it. But the first day, the first day
that Haley and I met in person, since she's in
the UK and we met online years ago, I dragged
her to the O two to see Hans Zimmer. So
it's been it's been a part of our friendship as well.
But so just for our listeners, I'll list a couple
of the films that you've you've scored, uh, Devil Wears Prada, Iconic,
(03:53):
Secret Life of Walter Mitty, Tropic Thunder, Simple Favor, one
of my favorite scores. Along came Polly Dariva, Whimpy Kid,
and of course Severance, which we will get. I have
a I have a section for that one. I wanted
(04:18):
to ask you, uh, just from the jump, like what
your what you consider your big break to have been, Like,
what was the first job that you were Like, oh,
I've I've actually arrived, you.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Know, that that's interesting. I mean, I would say that
there wasn't one one big one. It felt like a
bunch of a bunch of smaller ones. What the first
of which was I did a movie called Girl Fight
with Michelle Rodriguez, which it won the Grand Jury Prize
(04:52):
at sun Dance, and that felt like a big deal.
It was a big deal in my career. It got
me noticed by studios and that led to my getting
hired for for you know, for studio jobs. And then
on on a personal note, Karn Kusama, the director of
(05:14):
that movie, has become one of my best friends, and
you know, we live walking distance from each other, and
our children are best friends and and so so that
was an even bigger deal on on the personal level.
And then I would say, let's see, I think Old
School was also kind of a big one because it
(05:37):
was just, uh, it was such a success. I think
maybe you know, that was a that was a transitional time.
I would say, with what the sound of studio comedies was.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
And so.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
You know, not to say that I like broke Ground
or anything like that, but but my approach to it
was not so much in a traditional Hollywood comedy pitsacado, strings, vein,
but sort of just more like playing a rock band
and you know, trying to capture what the sound of
(06:17):
those characters would be. And so I think I think
that that kind of established me as somebody who could
do that kind of a job, and it led to
a bunch of other projects.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, what I like about your music is that it's
not I feel like I've I listened to score all
the time, like I literally run to it and I
and I feel like you can play a song and
I can I can recognize who it is because they
use they'll use the same instruments a lot, or the
same kind of tone, but yours are all so different.
(06:51):
You can't compare a simple favorite sound to like Marley
and Me and then the severance and and so I
love that about your music is that it is so
like varied across all the different films and things.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, thanks, I mean, that's that's great to hear. And
and you know, it's what I love about the job
is that every every project is different and you get
an opportunity every time out to find a new sound
and a new way of doing things. And and you know,
(07:28):
like I'm a puzzles person, and so for me like
a score is like a puzzle to solve finding just
whatever the ingredients are for that particular score.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Do you have like different instruments that you think of
for different emotions or tones or do you find that
it varies?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
It definitely varies, And yeah, I mean it just it's funny.
Like as one example of how to answer your question,
a lot of my scores early on were guitar based, and.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I think that that.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
That reflected the fact that at the time guitars were
really dominant in the sound of pop music and and
and indie especially, and then that kind of shifted over
to so so in other words, a guitar at that
time felt like a grounded sound that reflected a contemporary
(08:30):
character to me. And so over time, as guitars kind
of left the vernacular of pop music and you know, keyboards,
uh and synths kind of became more more dominant, I
(08:52):
would say that that, you know, probably sort of the
way that I think about those instruments has has shifted
along with those shifts in the culture. But then part
of your job as a film composer is to write
music that that hits with an audience that is also
steeped in the culture. So so I think that following
(09:13):
what those different trends are in popular music is an
important part of the job.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Actually, yeah, i'd be interested to know how, you know,
if you're if you feel like you're right for a project,
or if you take I guess you could take everything
on if you if you wanted to.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, I mean it's mostly what am I interested in doing,
you know, and what seems like just what seems like
a good project with good people, And that's that's really
the that's the main thing. And I I sort of
feel like I don't feel like I am unable to
(09:48):
do any kind of music. I mean, there are things
for which I'm sort of more obviously in the wheelhouse
and things that I'm more like, oh, I've never done
something like that, but for but but I try, you know,
I like to try to experiment in in genres that
(10:09):
I haven't had the opportunity to work in. And so
I always think of myself as being able to do
the job. Maybe falsely, but but that's right.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
That's listen. I feel like people are usually have the
opposite problem where they're like, oh I can't, I can't.
So that's I would choose that over over the flip side.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Right right right right.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Has has there been a project that you signed onto
that like has felt like where you had a moment
that you were like, why did why did I take
this on? Can I do this?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Nothing comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Maybe no, I mean, you know, one, because I've done
so many comedies, especially earlier on in my career, and
I love working on comedies, there have been, i'd say
there have been projects at various points in my career.
I will not say which where I felt like, oh,
(11:15):
I really can't do this again, Like this feels so
hard to want to do this again. And you know,
I thought it was I thought this movie was going
to be like a cooler version of this, But it's
actually not a cooler version of this. It's just this
and and so that's that's been a challenge at times,
but luckily that hasn't happened much.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I do feel like there are I feel like there's
there are a few departments in film or television that
can like redeem a bad script, and I feel like
score is definitely one of them, like quite a few
on my my endless playlist. Not great film, but I'm
(12:00):
like the composer knew what they were.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Well, that's yeah. I mean, you know, I I am
of course like, of course you always want the movie
to be good, you know, and and and I certainly
you know, I always kind of consider myself just part
of a team. And I'm not thinking like, oh, this
(12:23):
movie sucks, but my my shit's great. But but you
know it is sometimes nice. You know, not every movie works,
and you know, sometimes when a movie fails, you can
think of yourself as having also failed and so and
so sometimes maybe with a little bit of be hindsight,
(12:45):
when you listen to something that you've done for a
movie that that was not a success, and you think, oh,
I actually, you know, it's actually pretty good, Like I
wrote some good music for that, even that that can
be a nice a nice surprise and a nice ball And.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
What is it like the first time One of the
things on my bucket list is to to see it alive,
like recording of a of a composition. What is it
like the first time you hear what you've you've written?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Totally magical? Yeah, I mean it's it's spectacular. And you know,
particularly you know, with the players in the in l
A and London and New York. You know that those
those players are so amazing, They're so fast, they you know,
(13:40):
just get out there and sight read and and it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And uh.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
And you know, you make in the process of working
on films, you make these demos, and particularly over time
as time goes on, like the quality of the of
the mock ups that you make are better and better.
And you know, you think, like, Okay, this sounds amazing,
and then when you hear it live with live humans,
(14:10):
it's just a whole different thing. And you know, I
find myself just you know, even now having done it
for a long time, I'm constantly surprised and amazed by
how much better it sounds and how much more life
there is to the sound. And you know, you like
when you think about particularly like a string section, but
(14:34):
but other sections as well, but strings in particular, like
you know, let's say you have forty string players or
fifty string players, Like there's all of that human variation
and how and how the lines are played by by
those different players, and it just it just creates a
complexity and a life to the sound that you just
(14:55):
can't possibly get with machines.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And and that's.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Really yeah, I think I would be a blubbering mess.
I have to. I'm just outside New York, so I'm like,
I should look up some of the scoring stages near me.
But I was in LA for ten years and I
worked at Warner Brothers. And there was one day where
I don't know why, but I wandered into the this
(15:22):
like just the building that the studio was on, and
I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna like, I just
want to peek my head and see what the room
looks like. And as I was about to open the door,
the red light turned off, and I was like, thank god,
I didn't open the door and like lose my job.
But I couldn't hear anything. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Oh that's too bad. Well, I hope you get to
come to a session. It's it's pretty it's pretty cool,
and yeah, I mean it's it's a special experience.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I mean, I've actually heard you play live because I
was at the event there. Yes, I was in the
standing room only section. I stood for three hours to
be there. And I've told this story on the podcast
before because we've had three of the actors from the
(16:22):
show on. But it was one of those things where
the building, which is about fifteen minutes away from me.
They posted that there was going to be an event
and they were like, come early for a surprise. And
I feel like I've worked in the industry long enough
to know that they were either going to give out
like free pencils or like key chains, or like it
(16:43):
was gonna be what it was. Yeah, So I just
jumped in the car and I drove over and as
soon as I saw the piano sitting there, I was like,
there's no way. And then when you walked out, people
freaked out. It was so I love when people are
just quiet and listening to to someone play music. I
(17:06):
think it's like the coolest thing.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
That's so great.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Well, I have my story about that was that that
uh we you know, I was able to sit down
and rehearse at once at the piano earlier in the
day and then I, uh, when when we did it
you know for real, uh with with the audience. I mean,
(17:30):
first of all, I've like I couldn't believe how many
people there were there, So that was that was shocking.
And I hit the first chord and between the time
I rehearsed and the time we did it for real,
they put in a sound system, and the sound system
echoed my chord back about a half second after I
(17:52):
played it, So it was like the disconcerting feeling of
talking on the phone when you're hearing your voice echo
back at you. Happened was completely terrifying, and uh, I'm
lucky I didn't make a total mess of it, but
but I did. I was able to soldier through, but
it was it was like a absolutely frightening moment.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You could have just banged on the keys and people
have been like I mean the people standing next to me.
It was like a mom and her two young boys
and they had just driven to Bellwarks that day just
to just to like be like, oh, this is where
the show is filmed, and happened to stumble upon this event,
(18:34):
which to me is like the wildest but that building,
which is incredible. I go there. They have like a
farmer's market and like they have all these events trivia,
and there's a beautiful bar and there is a DJ duo.
I wrote down their name. What are they called? Oh,
(18:54):
they're called High Tide Recordings. And they perform there and
they play your like remixes of your musical and they're
thressed in like lab like they have all the themes
and oh my god, they're like, you know, please enjoy
each selection equally, and then they like drop the beat and.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It's crazy, that's incredible.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
But yeah, anytime you you want to stumble back in
that building, you will have a crowd of people who.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Are Okay, that's great.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So, speaking of severance, when you were on the podcast recently,
you talked about like sending the demo of the theme. Yeah,
and that there were four particular chords I guess that
that Ben Seller liked. And I'm wondering where those four
(19:47):
chords came from, or if you were just messing around,
or if you thought this is what this place sounds like.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I mean I was messing around, that's the truth. Like,
and uh, you know, I did it. I did it
off handedly. And then it was like one of those
things where you you know, some writers talk about just
like vomiting out a first draft and then editing it.
(20:14):
It was kind of like that. I played sort of
a version of it, of that chord progression, and then
and then I kind of thought about it and I
was like, oh, well, if I alter that note, if
I changed that oh, then that's actually kind of interesting.
But you know, I really think that it kind of
(20:34):
happened very spontaneously when it first happened, and then I
made adjustments and and it just felt really good, and
it felt like something that, you know, where the constant
tension and release of it might give way to really
being able to have it repeat and expand and grow
(20:58):
and do a lot of things, and you know, and
that that's that's what we ended up doing with it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Then the noise at the end of the theme was
that was that you.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Or was that that's me?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah? You know, uh, yeah, I thank you. I just
had this idea that.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Uh, I had this idea that I was working on
two different ideas for the main theme at that time,
and one of them involved falsetto singing voices and so
I so the last note was just like a note
that rang out, and I thought, Oh, wouldn't it be
(21:46):
cool if like the voice kind of glitched.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Out a little bit?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And uh and so I liked that effect, and I
was like, oh, well, I should also do that for
the other one, for the piano effect. Okay, well, how
am I going to do that? Because a piano is
a decaying sound and so I just thought, Okay, well,
what if I take the piano note and then I
reverse it so that instead of decaying, it builds at
(22:11):
the end. And then I did the same chopping of
the audio to make it glitchy and added distortion as
I went, And that's that's what did it. And yeah,
the idea, the idea was kind of like the fraying
of the self, and that, you know, I think I
(22:32):
probably had the idea because of the vocal version, you know,
because the the the human voice kind of felt more
directly like this is the self.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
But it worked.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
It worked for the piano too in a different way
that you know, ultimately ended up being very very useful,
not just for the theme but for the shows as
a whole.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
This is so cool. I think my favorite song from
season two is the Salt Snack song. I feel, do
you feel like an extra challenge when it's an out
of office situation?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Well, I mean it's exciting because it's it's so clearly
an opportunity to find a new sound and and uh,
you know, this show is so generous with the real
estate that it gives to music. Uh, and that's not
you know, that's not the norm. As a composer, you know,
(23:37):
a lot of times you just don't get that.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And and so I'm I'm.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Incredibly grateful for that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
And and you know, in.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
This case, you know, the the photography of Salt Snack
and that they shot in Newfoundland is just so spectacular.
And uh, they Jeff Richmond, the editor who's brilliant, sent
me just a reel of of of Patricia Arquette, you know,
(24:08):
Misco Bell driving through that landscape, and I just sat
down and started writing and and it it, uh, it
kind of came out very very easily, and and it
just those those chords just sort of feel very i
(24:32):
don't know, they feel like monolithic to me, like sort
of like big tectonic plates banging into each other. And and
so that was that was a lot of fun to
write that and and to explore that kind of new
sound for that episode.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And you got the key a little bit of the
kere anthem yes.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yes, yes, yeah. That that was nice and that was
actually that was and an addition that Mark Friedman, one
of the one of the producers, you had this idea
that like maybe it would be good to to just
remind the audience that were still in a Severance universe,
And that was a very very good suggestion.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
In the uh the like kind of collaboration with Odessa
that the cure was my favorite, which feels like a
red flag in some way that I'm like singing the
song in my house.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
But yeah, it's it's catchy, uh, I know, I know
it started as as something kind of different, and then
the ort Bow kind of yes, changed it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
But yeah, that was you know, when we were working
on the ort Bow episode, I did a version of
I mean, it was written into the script. There was
this cure, the Amusaic version of the cure him. Yeah,
and and I did what I thought was kind of
like a good low five version, and Ben's like shittier.
(26:05):
And then so then I did like a shittier version.
He's like no, no, no, like really really shittier. And so
then I had to pull out the cassio. Yes, the
cassio beats and all of that to make it pass muster.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It's very like nineties Microsoft starting up your computer exactly,
like very low key but also also perfect. So yeah,
I'm guessing that was another episode where it was fun
to write because they're not They're not in.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, well that that was actually a really interesting episode
to work on because, first of all, you know, from
the time when they started figuring out just the storyline
of the season as a whole, Ben was really was
really focused on that episode.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
So we talked a lot about it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And he sent you know, I feel like he sent
a bunch of references and and we actually really struggled,
particularly with the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
To find the sound.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
He had this thing in his mind, but you know,
it was just he couldn't quite put his finger on
what he was looking for, but like he had this
thing in mind, and both, you know, with picture and music,
we were we were kind of hovering around it but
not quite on it. And then he said he said
(27:32):
something that he was like, oh, you know, I like
this that one cue that you did in season one
for the The Hall of Vegans, and and I was like, oh, yeah,
that like And the thing about that music is whereas
(27:54):
you know, a lot of the music in the show
is kind of written on a grid, like uh, tempo wise,
like it's sort of it's all kind of metered and
and and locked to a grid. That one Q was
kind of played freely and kind of improvisationally. It was
just like a live performance of mine. And so I
(28:18):
just I started experimenting a lot with more improvisational ideas
and things that were out of time and just sort
of floating around and very kind of free tempo wise,
and that really unlocked that that whole sound at the
beginning of that episode and having it feel like ethereal
(28:41):
and beautiful and like a kind of horror that's not
overly scary or heart is kind of a beautiful and
ethereal form of horror, which is what Ben was looking for.
And so that that was a lot of time was
spent on that episode, and I wrote a lot before
we started, and a lot of it got used, but
(29:03):
particularly nailing the beginning of that episode was a journey.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It was a I feel like as a viewer it
was jarring because you're like, wait, where are we actually?
I say it was out of office, But the internet
is very split as to whether or not that's like
some sort of like Vegas dome, oh indoors thing, or
if it was acting.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I hadn't heard that one. I hadn't heard that one.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
People were like people, in my opinion, are too I'm like,
this show gives you all the info you need, Like,
I don't know when there's been a reveal that someone's
been an alien, but anyway, they.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I'm with you, Emily. I mean, it's interesting that you're
saying that, because you know, I do talk to a
lot of people who are like, I mean, I love
the show. I don't know what's happening in it, and
and you know, I respect everybody's experience with it, but
I actually do think that the show is giving you
(29:59):
a lot of information about what's going on, and that yes,
there are things that are withheld and then revealed and
at various times, but you know, at its at its core,
the story is following the story of the innis Mark
and Helly and and their sort of birth, you know,
their their transition from birth to adolescence, and you know,
(30:22):
in many ways I find that that it's very elemental
what the story is doing.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
And and.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, and that to me, that's that's that's the power
of the show is just sort of the most simple
elements of what's happening.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of like who's like I
remember Sarah Bach had a line where she said she
was a crossing guard and people were like, was this
in heaven is right?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, she was. She was a crossing guard.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Like I don't understand. I'm like, let's all just watch
what ever, you know what other people's problem.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
But you know, look, I'm really glad. It's awesome that
people are so invested and and it's it's great and
you know, and obviously people should get out of the
show what they wish to get out of the show. Sure,
of course, grateful for the engagement.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yes, I'm like, I could tell you exactly what it's
about my experience, but I don't think. Uh yeah, anyway, anyway,
ye back to you. Do you find, because you're talking
about how much Ben is involved kind of in like
(31:42):
what his vision is, do you find on other things
you work on that that's the case with the director
or do you sometimes have like kind of free reign
oh or no direction?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
No, no, no, I I usually find that the director
is very engaged and no that that that's that is
very normal and and and I also feel like I
have a lot of free reign when I'm working with Ben.
It's it's just you know, he has he has an
extraordinary h he has extraordinary taste, yeah, and incredible intuition
(32:18):
and and a very very good filter for catching things
that that aren't working.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
And so.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
It is it's a real gift to get to work
with him, just because because it really feels like you
have leeway to to take take chances and and you know,
dare dare to make mistakes knowing that like if you do,
he's he's going to catch it.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah. I I also find it interesting that he he
has said he said at the event, like like I'd
love to know what people love, like gravitate to it
so much. And and my previous experience with you guys
as as a duo as like especially was Secret Life
of Waltermitty, which to me is another project about dissociation
(33:08):
and and and having to meld reality with with it
and and uh yeah, so I'm like it's anyway, a
lot of you guys have made a lot of things
that are personal for me, which I I love. How
was how was composing that different from Severance?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Well, I mean that that was so first of all, Uh,
Secret Life of Waltermitty was just made different by our
collaboration with Jose Gonzalez, which was really amazing. You know,
he's he's such an incredible artist and a wonderful person. Also,
(33:50):
he's he's, you know, one of those musicians where the
beauty of the music matches the beauty of of.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Of the person.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
And so he was just a wonderful collaborator and very
kind of open and generous and and you know, willing
to try try things. And so that that was a
great experience working with him, and you know, I feel like,
I feel like it was different in the sense that
(34:21):
we were we were kind of in a transitional period.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
In the way that we were working at that time.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
That was Walter Mitty was where I really started with Ben,
feeding him music in advance of of when he was editing.
I think while he was shooting, I sent him three
ideas for the main theme, and and you know, I
(34:50):
had written two and I was like, these are both good,
but I should probably do one more because rule of threes.
And so I did this one, one other one, and
it was just one of those things where I was like,
I love this, but it's probably he probably won't pick
this one because because it's it's you know, not energetic enough.
(35:11):
It's sort of more just beautiful and spacious. And so
I was really happy when he was like, oh, this
is this is the one. I'm really into this, and uh,
and so so you know, so that was how we
got started, and and and so in that respect, there
were similarities between that and the process with Severance of
(35:32):
writing the theme in advance of him shooting. With severance, though,
there was a much greater impetus to write a lot
of material early because I wanted to. I wanted to
make it so that they didn't use any tempt music
in the show that was that wasn't original music. And uh,
(35:59):
you know, for your listeners, if you don't know this,
temp music is when the editor and the director and
the music editor take music from other films or TV
shows and they cut it in as a placeholder while
they're editing a movie or a TV show. And it's
something that is totally normal. But the problem with it
(36:23):
is that it gets everybody used to that temp music
and so then you know, both the director and the
composer I think, kind of despite their best intentions there,
you know, it puts blinders on you and gets you
thinking in a particular way at about music. So in
(36:44):
order to avoid having any temp music in the series,
I said, you know, I'm going to write a big
library of music, but the rule will be that there's
going to be no temp music and so on Severnce
I did that and it was it really led to
a great experience, particularly because Jeff Richmond, the editor, is
(37:06):
so good with music, so he and I really engaged in,
you know, in a very productive back and forth where
he was editing using the music that I'd written in advance.
And so so this idea that kind of started for
us in in Walter Mitty of like having the themes
(37:29):
in advance and having that be part of the part
of the you know, the fabric of the show and
of the editorial process. In severance, it became sort of
that time, you know, times one hundred, and there was
just a lot more music there to kind of inform
the process.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
So what information did you have on both those projects
to come up with those themes if there was no
nothing recorded yet or scenes.
Speaker 5 (37:57):
Recorded for for Midy, I think they sent me they
sent me a scene that happens early in the film
where Walter is walking to work and he's walking in
slow motion and everybody else is walking in regular time.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
It's incredibly beautiful and imaginative and so I think, uh,
I know, I know, I wrote those three different ideas
sort of two picture for that scene, and that was
that was how we got started. And I mean, obviously
I'd read the script, I knew where things were going
to go, but uh, that was that was what I
(38:47):
had visually to work with while I was doing it.
In the case of Severance, I didn't have anything.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Visually to work with.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
I you know, in season one, you know, I had just.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Scripts, and.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Once we had established the main theme, I took it
upon myself to just expand it as much as possible
and in as many ways as possible.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
What was it like when you saw the incredible artists
rendition of like the visuals of the song, you know, oh.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Oh god, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I mean Ben. Ben showed me some of Oliver's stuff
in twenty twenty, right before we were supposed to start
going into production, which got disrupted by COVID.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
It was so incredible and unlike anything I'd seen before.
And I was privy to a lot of the meetings
about about the main title sequence, and he just had
so many phenomenal ideas. I mean, there were a lot
of brilliant, mind bending ideas that just got cut because
(40:03):
they're you know, because we had to pare down. But
he is such an astonishingly creative person.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
And I, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
He just seems to have like a fountain of brilliant,
strange ideas in his head and you know whatever. I'd
like to tap into that if I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, it's so, it's so incredible. I I I know
he was he was discovered on Instagram. Yeah, on the internet.
I'm like, yeah, I gotta figure out what I can
put on Instagram exactly to become a part of zeffence.
My god, what can I contribute? I just crying and
being in awe all the time. I don't really know.
(40:48):
I'll figure it out. So we have two stable questions
that we all always ask our guests. One is what
your definition of the phrase making it means? So like
(41:09):
in terms of career or in life, what do you
what do you define you know, having quote unquote made it?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, uh, I
to me, uh, work life balance is really important and
and quality of life is really important, and and that
has always been something that I've emphasized. I think I'm
(41:37):
proud of the fact that some of the people who
have worked for me, you know, some of my assistants,
have kind of gone on to to also espouse the
same thing. That's it's not it's not the norm in
the world of film composing. There's a lot of uh.
(41:57):
I think that there is a lot of sort of
round clock working and and a lack of focus on that.
That's what's important for me. So so for me making
it is being able to be a creative artist and
also be able to, you know, maintain the quality of
life that's important to me, to be with my family
(42:21):
and and to be with my friends and do all
the things that make life worth it.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
It's so funny. Rarely do the questions get turned on us.
But once someone asked Haley and she said the same thing,
and she came up with a phrase that's literally on.
I made her a mug because it's so ridiculous. But
she says it says one for the bread, one for
the head.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I put Haley question mark because we couldn't figure out
if she had come up with that, because it just
like came off. She said it in her accents, was
extra charge, So I had to put it on a
on a mug.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Of course, that's a great saying and yes and in
a more sucstinct way of saying what I said.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
And then the second question we ask, and you could
take your time on this. Everybody does, and I edit
these episodes, so I just take out the silences. But
if you had to come up with a chapter title
or just a title in general that kind of encapsulates
(43:39):
your career up unto this point, what would that title be.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
The thing that I that I that I want to
say is craft, because you know, the thing that I,
the thing that I really believe in is is craft.
And the thing that I get joy from is craft.
Doing my job in the best way possible and learning
(44:08):
from mistakes and getting better. And I've had a varied career.
I've worked on a lot of different types of things,
you know, I've I've had times where I felt like
a winner, times where I didn't feel like a winner.
But but through throughout, you know, I'm proud of the
fact that I that my emphasis has been on on
(44:31):
the actual work and on making music and being as
good a musician as I can be. That's what I
care about and what I hope to sort of continue
caring about going forward.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Good answer, Good answer. I think out of everybody that
we've interviewed, I have not been as excited or eager
to them to speak to you. I Oh, I truly like,
I just I don't know how like I'm actually proving
(45:05):
my point right now. I think the power of score
is the most magical thing. To be able to express
a story without words. I like, regular music is fine
with the rest, but like, I'm like, you can't to
maybe able to make people cry or emote and not
(45:26):
say and not be saying anything is a superpower and
something that I could never I could also refer to.
So so I just I look at composers as like
the coolest people.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
So that's that's wonderful to hear that. I'll be sure
to tell my kids you said that.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
It's just like I feel like this whole time, I've
been like.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Oh, yeah, it's really nice.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
It's and I are you on the West Coast the
East Coast and West Coast?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, I from from the East Coast originally, but but
I live on the West Coast.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Okay, Yeah, I was gonna say, if there's I'm sure
they will they will host another insane event, so I
hope our paths cross again. But but yeah, this has
been an absolute pleasure and.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Likewise, likewise, thank you so much for having me. It's
this is really fun to do and it's great to
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
How to Make It is recorded from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley mur Leidarn. For full
length videos of our episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel
at how to Make It Podcast. For more adventures with
Emily and Haley, follow us on Instagram at how to
(46:56):
Make It Podcast, where you'll find clips from today's episode,
many episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like and subscribe
to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever other
fine podcasts are found.
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
It and more importantly, uncover what making it even means.
May that made us sound so much more serious than
we actually are? Should we switch roles on this time? Okay,
see that's the intro. Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My name is Theodore Shapiro, and I wanted to be
an archaeologist when I grew up. Really yeah, I mean
it was purely an Indiana Jones thing. That was a
seminal experience for me as Raiders of the Lost Arks.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, and then What Killed the Dream?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, you know, I mean it's funny because like, as
a kid, I was so captivated by that movie, and yeah,
I saw it so many times. And although you know,
what was the most appealing idea was like being this adventurer,
I also at the same time was very taken with
(01:25):
the music, and I was you know, very sort of
keyed into what John Williams was doing and that you know,
even even in a rudimentary nine year old kind of
a way. I was like, Oh, that theme is so
great and I feel really excited every time I hear it.
So that was it ultimately kind of spurred what I
actually do.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Of Yes, I mean, how yeah, how could it not.
I saw John Williams in concert at the Hollywood Bowl
when I lived in LA and Steven Spielberg hosted, and
they had Stephen ad him play the same scene twice,
once without the score and once with just to demonstrate
(02:08):
how awkward it is. There's a lot of grunting and
footsteps and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It is remarkable when you take the music away sometimes
what a big hole it leaves.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah. Well, normally we'd go into kind of just listing
facts as a way that kind of Haley and I
learn about the guess, but I know so much about
you are that I didn't even need to do that portion.
I've been a fan since God like Marley and me.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Uh wow, Okay, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm a huge score scores, like probably my favorite thing
in the world. So I'm I'm very scity, and you're
the first composer I've ever gotten a.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Have you asked other composers.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I I have, I.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I mean we're not a group.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I don't think so. I think I felt so out
of my league that.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I will I will totally disabuse you of that notion.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I just didn't. But like you're gonna get unfortunately for you,
you're gonna get all my pent up excitement.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Because I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I love it and.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Waiting for it. But the first day, the first day
that Haley and I met in person, since she's in
the UK and we met online years ago, I dragged
her to the O two to see Hans Zimmer. So
it's been it's been a part of our friendship as well.
But so just for our listeners, I'll list a couple
of the films that you've you've scored, uh, Devil Wears Prada, Iconic,
(03:53):
Secret Life of Walter Mitty, Tropic Thunder, Simple Favor, one
of my favorite scores. Along came Polly Dariva, Whimpy Kid,
and of course Severance, which we will get. I have
a I have a section for that one. I wanted
(04:18):
to ask you, uh, just from the jump, like what
your what you consider your big break to have been, Like,
what was the first job that you were Like, oh,
I've I've actually arrived, you.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Know, that that's interesting. I mean, I would say that
there wasn't one one big one. It felt like a
bunch of a bunch of smaller ones. What the first
of which was I did a movie called Girl Fight
with Michelle Rodriguez, which it won the Grand Jury Prize
(04:52):
at sun Dance, and that felt like a big deal.
It was a big deal in my career. It got
me noticed by studios and that led to my getting
hired for for you know, for studio jobs. And then
on on a personal note, Karn Kusama, the director of
(05:14):
that movie, has become one of my best friends, and
you know, we live walking distance from each other, and
our children are best friends and and so so that
was an even bigger deal on on the personal level.
And then I would say, let's see, I think Old
School was also kind of a big one because it
(05:37):
was just, uh, it was such a success. I think
maybe you know, that was a that was a transitional time.
I would say, with what the sound of studio comedies was.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
And so.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
You know, not to say that I like broke Ground
or anything like that, but but my approach to it
was not so much in a traditional Hollywood comedy pitsacado, strings, vein,
but sort of just more like playing a rock band
and you know, trying to capture what the sound of
(06:17):
those characters would be. And so I think I think
that that kind of established me as somebody who could
do that kind of a job, and it led to
a bunch of other projects.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, what I like about your music is that it's
not I feel like I've I listened to score all
the time, like I literally run to it and I
and I feel like you can play a song and
I can I can recognize who it is because they
use they'll use the same instruments a lot, or the
same kind of tone, but yours are all so different.
(06:51):
You can't compare a simple favorite sound to like Marley
and Me and then the severance and and so I
love that about your music is that it is so
like varied across all the different films and things.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, thanks, I mean, that's that's great to hear. And
and you know, it's what I love about the job
is that every every project is different and you get
an opportunity every time out to find a new sound
and a new way of doing things. And and you know,
(07:28):
like I'm a puzzles person, and so for me like
a score is like a puzzle to solve finding just
whatever the ingredients are for that particular score.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Do you have like different instruments that you think of
for different emotions or tones or do you find that
it varies?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
It definitely varies, And yeah, I mean it just it's funny.
Like as one example of how to answer your question,
a lot of my scores early on were guitar based, and.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I think that that.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
That reflected the fact that at the time guitars were
really dominant in the sound of pop music and and
and indie especially, and then that kind of shifted over
to so so in other words, a guitar at that
time felt like a grounded sound that reflected a contemporary
(08:30):
character to me. And so over time, as guitars kind
of left the vernacular of pop music and you know, keyboards,
uh and synths kind of became more more dominant, I
(08:52):
would say that that, you know, probably sort of the
way that I think about those instruments has has shifted
along with those shifts in the culture. But then part
of your job as a film composer is to write
music that that hits with an audience that is also
steeped in the culture. So so I think that following
(09:13):
what those different trends are in popular music is an
important part of the job.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Actually, yeah, i'd be interested to know how, you know,
if you're if you feel like you're right for a project,
or if you take I guess you could take everything
on if you if you wanted to.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, I mean it's mostly what am I interested in doing,
you know, and what seems like just what seems like
a good project with good people, And that's that's really
the that's the main thing. And I I sort of
feel like I don't feel like I am unable to
(09:48):
do any kind of music. I mean, there are things
for which I'm sort of more obviously in the wheelhouse
and things that I'm more like, oh, I've never done
something like that, but for but but I try, you know,
I like to try to experiment in in genres that
(10:09):
I haven't had the opportunity to work in. And so
I always think of myself as being able to do
the job. Maybe falsely, but but that's right.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
That's listen. I feel like people are usually have the
opposite problem where they're like, oh I can't, I can't.
So that's I would choose that over over the flip side.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Right right right right.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Has has there been a project that you signed onto
that like has felt like where you had a moment
that you were like, why did why did I take
this on? Can I do this?
Speaker 3 (10:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Nothing comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Maybe no, I mean, you know, one, because I've done
so many comedies, especially earlier on in my career, and
I love working on comedies, there have been, i'd say
there have been projects at various points in my career.
I will not say which where I felt like, oh,
(11:15):
I really can't do this again, Like this feels so
hard to want to do this again. And you know,
I thought it was I thought this movie was going
to be like a cooler version of this, But it's
actually not a cooler version of this. It's just this
and and so that's that's been a challenge at times,
but luckily that hasn't happened much.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I do feel like there are I feel like there's
there are a few departments in film or television that
can like redeem a bad script, and I feel like
score is definitely one of them, like quite a few
on my my endless playlist. Not great film, but I'm
(12:00):
like the composer knew what they were.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Well, that's yeah. I mean, you know, I I am
of course like, of course you always want the movie
to be good, you know, and and and I certainly
you know, I always kind of consider myself just part
of a team. And I'm not thinking like, oh, this
(12:23):
movie sucks, but my my shit's great. But but you
know it is sometimes nice. You know, not every movie works,
and you know, sometimes when a movie fails, you can
think of yourself as having also failed and so and
so sometimes maybe with a little bit of be hindsight,
(12:45):
when you listen to something that you've done for a
movie that that was not a success, and you think, oh,
I actually, you know, it's actually pretty good, Like I
wrote some good music for that, even that that can
be a nice a nice surprise and a nice ball And.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
What is it like the first time One of the
things on my bucket list is to to see it alive,
like recording of a of a composition. What is it
like the first time you hear what you've you've written?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Totally magical? Yeah, I mean it's it's spectacular. And you know,
particularly you know, with the players in the in l
A and London and New York. You know that those
those players are so amazing, They're so fast, they you know,
(13:40):
just get out there and sight read and and it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And uh.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
And you know, you make in the process of working
on films, you make these demos, and particularly over time
as time goes on, like the quality of the of
the mock ups that you make are better and better.
And you know, you think, like, Okay, this sounds amazing,
and then when you hear it live with live humans,
(14:10):
it's just a whole different thing. And you know, I
find myself just you know, even now having done it
for a long time, I'm constantly surprised and amazed by
how much better it sounds and how much more life
there is to the sound. And you know, you like
when you think about particularly like a string section, but
(14:34):
but other sections as well, but strings in particular, like
you know, let's say you have forty string players or
fifty string players, Like there's all of that human variation
and how and how the lines are played by by
those different players, and it just it just creates a
complexity and a life to the sound that you just
(14:55):
can't possibly get with machines.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And and that's.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Really yeah, I think I would be a blubbering mess.
I have to. I'm just outside New York, so I'm like,
I should look up some of the scoring stages near me.
But I was in LA for ten years and I
worked at Warner Brothers. And there was one day where
I don't know why, but I wandered into the this
(15:22):
like just the building that the studio was on, and
I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna like, I just
want to peek my head and see what the room
looks like. And as I was about to open the door,
the red light turned off, and I was like, thank god,
I didn't open the door and like lose my job.
But I couldn't hear anything. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Oh that's too bad. Well, I hope you get to
come to a session. It's it's pretty it's pretty cool,
and yeah, I mean it's it's a special experience.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
I mean, I've actually heard you play live because I
was at the event there. Yes, I was in the
standing room only section. I stood for three hours to
be there. And I've told this story on the podcast
before because we've had three of the actors from the
(16:22):
show on. But it was one of those things where
the building, which is about fifteen minutes away from me.
They posted that there was going to be an event
and they were like, come early for a surprise. And
I feel like I've worked in the industry long enough
to know that they were either going to give out
like free pencils or like key chains, or like it
(16:43):
was gonna be what it was. Yeah, So I just
jumped in the car and I drove over and as
soon as I saw the piano sitting there, I was like,
there's no way. And then when you walked out, people
freaked out. It was so I love when people are
just quiet and listening to to someone play music. I
(17:06):
think it's like the coolest thing.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
That's so great.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Well, I have my story about that was that that
uh we you know, I was able to sit down
and rehearse at once at the piano earlier in the
day and then I, uh, when when we did it
you know for real, uh with with the audience. I mean,
(17:30):
first of all, I've like I couldn't believe how many
people there were there, So that was that was shocking.
And I hit the first chord and between the time
I rehearsed and the time we did it for real,
they put in a sound system, and the sound system
echoed my chord back about a half second after I
(17:52):
played it, So it was like the disconcerting feeling of
talking on the phone when you're hearing your voice echo
back at you. Happened was completely terrifying, and uh, I'm
lucky I didn't make a total mess of it, but
but I did. I was able to soldier through, but
it was it was like a absolutely frightening moment.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
You could have just banged on the keys and people
have been like I mean the people standing next to me.
It was like a mom and her two young boys
and they had just driven to Bellwarks that day just
to just to like be like, oh, this is where
the show is filmed, and happened to stumble upon this event,
(18:34):
which to me is like the wildest but that building,
which is incredible. I go there. They have like a
farmer's market and like they have all these events trivia,
and there's a beautiful bar and there is a DJ duo.
I wrote down their name. What are they called? Oh,
(18:54):
they're called High Tide Recordings. And they perform there and
they play your like remixes of your musical and they're
thressed in like lab like they have all the themes
and oh my god, they're like, you know, please enjoy
each selection equally, and then they like drop the beat and.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It's crazy, that's incredible.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
But yeah, anytime you you want to stumble back in
that building, you will have a crowd of people who.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Are Okay, that's great.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So, speaking of severance, when you were on the podcast recently,
you talked about like sending the demo of the theme. Yeah,
and that there were four particular chords I guess that
that Ben Seller liked. And I'm wondering where those four
(19:47):
chords came from, or if you were just messing around,
or if you thought this is what this place sounds like.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I mean I was messing around, that's the truth. Like,
and uh, you know, I did it. I did it
off handedly. And then it was like one of those
things where you you know, some writers talk about just
like vomiting out a first draft and then editing it.
(20:14):
It was kind of like that. I played sort of
a version of it, of that chord progression, and then
and then I kind of thought about it and I
was like, oh, well, if I alter that note, if
I changed that oh, then that's actually kind of interesting.
But you know, I really think that it kind of
(20:34):
happened very spontaneously when it first happened, and then I
made adjustments and and it just felt really good, and
it felt like something that, you know, where the constant
tension and release of it might give way to really
being able to have it repeat and expand and grow
(20:58):
and do a lot of things, and you know, and
that that's that's what we ended up doing with it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Then the noise at the end of the theme was
that was that you.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Or was that that's me?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah? You know, uh, yeah, I thank you. I just
had this idea that.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Uh, I had this idea that I was working on
two different ideas for the main theme at that time,
and one of them involved falsetto singing voices and so
I so the last note was just like a note
that rang out, and I thought, Oh, wouldn't it be
(21:46):
cool if like the voice kind of glitched.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Out a little bit?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
And uh and so I liked that effect, and I
was like, oh, well, I should also do that for
the other one, for the piano effect. Okay, well, how
am I going to do that? Because a piano is
a decaying sound and so I just thought, Okay, well,
what if I take the piano note and then I
reverse it so that instead of decaying, it builds at
(22:11):
the end. And then I did the same chopping of
the audio to make it glitchy and added distortion as
I went, And that's that's what did it. And yeah,
the idea, the idea was kind of like the fraying
of the self, and that, you know, I think I
(22:32):
probably had the idea because of the vocal version, you know,
because the the the human voice kind of felt more
directly like this is the self.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
But it worked.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
It worked for the piano too in a different way
that you know, ultimately ended up being very very useful,
not just for the theme but for the shows as
a whole.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
This is so cool. I think my favorite song from
season two is the Salt Snack song. I feel, do
you feel like an extra challenge when it's an out
of office situation?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Well, I mean it's exciting because it's it's so clearly
an opportunity to find a new sound and and uh,
you know, this show is so generous with the real
estate that it gives to music. Uh, and that's not
you know, that's not the norm. As a composer, you know,
(23:37):
a lot of times you just don't get that.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
And and so I'm I'm.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Incredibly grateful for that opportunity.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
And and you know, in.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
This case, you know, the the photography of Salt Snack
and that they shot in Newfoundland is just so spectacular.
And uh, they Jeff Richmond, the editor who's brilliant, sent
me just a reel of of of Patricia Arquette, you know,
(24:08):
Misco Bell driving through that landscape, and I just sat
down and started writing and and it it, uh, it
kind of came out very very easily, and and it
just those those chords just sort of feel very i
(24:32):
don't know, they feel like monolithic to me, like sort
of like big tectonic plates banging into each other. And and
so that was that was a lot of fun to
write that and and to explore that kind of new
sound for that episode.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And you got the key a little bit of the
kere anthem yes.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yes, yes, yeah. That that was nice and that was
actually that was and an addition that Mark Friedman, one
of the one of the producers, you had this idea
that like maybe it would be good to to just
remind the audience that were still in a Severance universe,
And that was a very very good suggestion.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
In the uh the like kind of collaboration with Odessa
that the cure was my favorite, which feels like a
red flag in some way that I'm like singing the
song in my house.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
But yeah, it's it's catchy, uh, I know, I know
it started as as something kind of different, and then
the ort Bow kind of yes, changed it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
But yeah, that was you know, when we were working
on the ort Bow episode, I did a version of
I mean, it was written into the script. There was
this cure, the Amusaic version of the cure him. Yeah,
and and I did what I thought was kind of
like a good low five version, and Ben's like shittier.
(26:05):
And then so then I did like a shittier version.
He's like no, no, no, like really really shittier. And so
then I had to pull out the cassio. Yes, the
cassio beats and all of that to make it pass muster.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
It's very like nineties Microsoft starting up your computer exactly,
like very low key but also also perfect. So yeah,
I'm guessing that was another episode where it was fun
to write because they're not They're not in.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, well that that was actually a really interesting episode
to work on because, first of all, you know, from
the time when they started figuring out just the storyline
of the season as a whole, Ben was really was
really focused on that episode.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
So we talked a lot about it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
And he sent you know, I feel like he sent
a bunch of references and and we actually really struggled,
particularly with the beginning of the episode.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
To find the sound.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
He had this thing in his mind, but you know,
it was just he couldn't quite put his finger on
what he was looking for, but like he had this
thing in mind, and both, you know, with picture and music,
we were we were kind of hovering around it but
not quite on it. And then he said he said
(27:32):
something that he was like, oh, you know, I like
this that one cue that you did in season one
for the The Hall of Vegans, and and I was like, oh, yeah,
that like And the thing about that music is whereas
(27:54):
you know, a lot of the music in the show
is kind of written on a grid, like uh, tempo wise,
like it's sort of it's all kind of metered and
and and locked to a grid. That one Q was
kind of played freely and kind of improvisationally. It was
just like a live performance of mine. And so I
(28:18):
just I started experimenting a lot with more improvisational ideas
and things that were out of time and just sort
of floating around and very kind of free tempo wise,
and that really unlocked that that whole sound at the
beginning of that episode and having it feel like ethereal
(28:41):
and beautiful and like a kind of horror that's not
overly scary or heart is kind of a beautiful and
ethereal form of horror, which is what Ben was looking for.
And so that that was a lot of time was
spent on that episode, and I wrote a lot before
we started, and a lot of it got used, but
(29:03):
particularly nailing the beginning of that episode was a journey.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
It was a I feel like as a viewer it
was jarring because you're like, wait, where are we actually?
I say it was out of office, But the internet
is very split as to whether or not that's like
some sort of like Vegas dome, oh indoors thing, or
if it was acting.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I hadn't heard that one. I hadn't heard that one.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
People were like people, in my opinion, are too I'm like,
this show gives you all the info you need, Like,
I don't know when there's been a reveal that someone's
been an alien, but anyway, they.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I'm with you, Emily. I mean, it's interesting that you're
saying that, because you know, I do talk to a
lot of people who are like, I mean, I love
the show. I don't know what's happening in it, and
and you know, I respect everybody's experience with it, but
I actually do think that the show is giving you
(29:59):
a lot of information about what's going on, and that yes,
there are things that are withheld and then revealed and
at various times, but you know, at its at its core,
the story is following the story of the innis Mark
and Helly and and their sort of birth, you know,
their their transition from birth to adolescence, and you know,
(30:22):
in many ways I find that that it's very elemental
what the story is doing.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
And and.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah, and that to me, that's that's that's the power
of the show is just sort of the most simple
elements of what's happening.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of like who's like I
remember Sarah Bach had a line where she said she
was a crossing guard and people were like, was this
in heaven is right?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Yeah, she was. She was a crossing guard.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Like I don't understand. I'm like, let's all just watch
what ever, you know what other people's problem.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
But you know, look, I'm really glad. It's awesome that
people are so invested and and it's it's great and
you know, and obviously people should get out of the
show what they wish to get out of the show. Sure,
of course, grateful for the engagement.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yes, I'm like, I could tell you exactly what it's
about my experience, but I don't think. Uh yeah, anyway, anyway,
ye back to you. Do you find, because you're talking
about how much Ben is involved kind of in like
(31:42):
what his vision is, do you find on other things
you work on that that's the case with the director
or do you sometimes have like kind of free reign
oh or no direction?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
No, no, no, I I usually find that the director
is very engaged and no that that that's that is
very normal and and and I also feel like I
have a lot of free reign when I'm working with Ben.
It's it's just you know, he has he has an
extraordinary h he has extraordinary taste, yeah, and incredible intuition
(32:18):
and and a very very good filter for catching things
that that aren't working.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
And so.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
It is it's a real gift to get to work
with him, just because because it really feels like you
have leeway to to take take chances and and you know,
dare dare to make mistakes knowing that like if you do,
he's he's going to catch it.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah. I I also find it interesting that he he
has said he said at the event, like like I'd
love to know what people love, like gravitate to it
so much. And and my previous experience with you guys
as as a duo as like especially was Secret Life
of Waltermitty, which to me is another project about dissociation
(33:08):
and and and having to meld reality with with it
and and uh yeah, so I'm like it's anyway, a
lot of you guys have made a lot of things
that are personal for me, which I I love. How
was how was composing that different from Severance?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Well, I mean that that was so first of all, Uh,
Secret Life of Waltermitty was just made different by our
collaboration with Jose Gonzalez, which was really amazing. You know,
he's he's such an incredible artist and a wonderful person. Also,
(33:50):
he's he's, you know, one of those musicians where the
beauty of the music matches the beauty of of.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Of the person.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
And so he was just a wonderful collaborator and very
kind of open and generous and and you know, willing
to try try things. And so that that was a
great experience working with him, and you know, I feel like,
I feel like it was different in the sense that
(34:21):
we were we were kind of in a transitional period.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
In the way that we were working at that time.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
That was Walter Mitty was where I really started with Ben,
feeding him music in advance of of when he was editing.
I think while he was shooting, I sent him three
ideas for the main theme, and and you know, I
(34:50):
had written two and I was like, these are both good,
but I should probably do one more because rule of threes.
And so I did this one, one other one, and
it was just one of those things where I was like,
I love this, but it's probably he probably won't pick
this one because because it's it's you know, not energetic enough.
(35:11):
It's sort of more just beautiful and spacious. And so
I was really happy when he was like, oh, this
is this is the one. I'm really into this, and uh,
and so so you know, so that was how we
got started, and and and so in that respect, there
were similarities between that and the process with Severance of
(35:32):
writing the theme in advance of him shooting. With severance, though,
there was a much greater impetus to write a lot
of material early because I wanted to. I wanted to
make it so that they didn't use any tempt music
in the show that was that wasn't original music. And uh,
(35:59):
you know, for your listeners, if you don't know this,
temp music is when the editor and the director and
the music editor take music from other films or TV
shows and they cut it in as a placeholder while
they're editing a movie or a TV show. And it's
something that is totally normal. But the problem with it
(36:23):
is that it gets everybody used to that temp music
and so then you know, both the director and the
composer I think, kind of despite their best intentions there,
you know, it puts blinders on you and gets you
thinking in a particular way at about music. So in
(36:44):
order to avoid having any temp music in the series,
I said, you know, I'm going to write a big
library of music, but the rule will be that there's
going to be no temp music and so on Severnce
I did that and it was it really led to
a great experience, particularly because Jeff Richmond, the editor, is
(37:06):
so good with music, so he and I really engaged in,
you know, in a very productive back and forth where
he was editing using the music that I'd written in advance.
And so so this idea that kind of started for
us in in Walter Mitty of like having the themes
(37:29):
in advance and having that be part of the part
of the you know, the fabric of the show and
of the editorial process. In severance, it became sort of
that time, you know, times one hundred, and there was
just a lot more music there to kind of inform
the process.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
So what information did you have on both those projects
to come up with those themes if there was no
nothing recorded yet or scenes.
Speaker 5 (37:57):
Recorded for for Midy, I think they sent me they
sent me a scene that happens early in the film
where Walter is walking to work and he's walking in
slow motion and everybody else is walking in regular time.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
It's incredibly beautiful and imaginative and so I think, uh,
I know, I know, I wrote those three different ideas
sort of two picture for that scene, and that was
that was how we got started. And I mean, obviously
I'd read the script, I knew where things were going
to go, but uh, that was that was what I
(38:47):
had visually to work with while I was doing it.
In the case of Severance, I didn't have anything.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Visually to work with.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
I you know, in season one, you know, I had just.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Scripts, and.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Once we had established the main theme, I took it
upon myself to just expand it as much as possible
and in as many ways as possible.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
What was it like when you saw the incredible artists
rendition of like the visuals of the song, you know, oh.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Oh god, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I mean Ben. Ben showed me some of Oliver's stuff
in twenty twenty, right before we were supposed to start
going into production, which got disrupted by COVID.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
It was so incredible and unlike anything I'd seen before.
And I was privy to a lot of the meetings
about about the main title sequence, and he just had
so many phenomenal ideas. I mean, there were a lot
of brilliant, mind bending ideas that just got cut because
(40:03):
they're you know, because we had to pare down. But
he is such an astonishingly creative person.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
And I, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
He just seems to have like a fountain of brilliant,
strange ideas in his head and you know whatever. I'd
like to tap into that if I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Yeah, it's so, it's so incredible. I I I know
he was he was discovered on Instagram. Yeah, on the internet.
I'm like, yeah, I gotta figure out what I can
put on Instagram exactly to become a part of zeffence.
My god, what can I contribute? I just crying and
being in awe all the time. I don't really know.
(40:48):
I'll figure it out. So we have two stable questions
that we all always ask our guests. One is what
your definition of the phrase making it means? So like
(41:09):
in terms of career or in life, what do you
what do you define you know, having quote unquote made it?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh man, that's a great question. I mean, uh, I
to me, uh, work life balance is really important and
and quality of life is really important, and and that
has always been something that I've emphasized. I think I'm
(41:37):
proud of the fact that some of the people who
have worked for me, you know, some of my assistants,
have kind of gone on to to also espouse the
same thing. That's it's not it's not the norm in
the world of film composing. There's a lot of uh.
(41:57):
I think that there is a lot of sort of
round clock working and and a lack of focus on that.
That's what's important for me. So so for me making
it is being able to be a creative artist and
also be able to, you know, maintain the quality of
life that's important to me, to be with my family
(42:21):
and and to be with my friends and do all
the things that make life worth it.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
It's so funny. Rarely do the questions get turned on us.
But once someone asked Haley and she said the same thing,
and she came up with a phrase that's literally on.
I made her a mug because it's so ridiculous. But
she says it says one for the bread, one for
the head.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I put Haley question mark because we couldn't figure out
if she had come up with that, because it just
like came off. She said it in her accents, was
extra charge, So I had to put it on a
on a mug.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Of course, that's a great saying and yes and in
a more sucstinct way of saying what I said.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
And then the second question we ask, and you could
take your time on this. Everybody does, and I edit
these episodes, so I just take out the silences. But
if you had to come up with a chapter title
or just a title in general that kind of encapsulates
(43:39):
your career up unto this point, what would that title be.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
The thing that I that I that I want to
say is craft, because you know, the thing that I,
the thing that I really believe in is is craft.
And the thing that I get joy from is craft.
Doing my job in the best way possible and learning
(44:08):
from mistakes and getting better. And I've had a varied career.
I've worked on a lot of different types of things,
you know, I've I've had times where I felt like
a winner, times where I didn't feel like a winner.
But but through throughout, you know, I'm proud of the
fact that I that my emphasis has been on on
(44:31):
the actual work and on making music and being as
good a musician as I can be. That's what I
care about and what I hope to sort of continue
caring about going forward.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Good answer, Good answer. I think out of everybody that
we've interviewed, I have not been as excited or eager
to them to speak to you. I Oh, I truly like,
I just I don't know how like I'm actually proving
(45:05):
my point right now. I think the power of score
is the most magical thing. To be able to express
a story without words. I like, regular music is fine
with the rest, but like, I'm like, you can't to
maybe able to make people cry or emote and not
(45:26):
say and not be saying anything is a superpower and
something that I could never I could also refer to.
So so I just I look at composers as like
the coolest people.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
So that's that's wonderful to hear that. I'll be sure
to tell my kids you said that.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
It's just like I feel like this whole time, I've
been like.
Speaker 3 (45:58):
Oh, yeah, it's really nice.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
It's and I are you on the West Coast the
East Coast and West Coast?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, I from from the East Coast originally, but but
I live on the West Coast.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Okay, Yeah, I was gonna say, if there's I'm sure
they will they will host another insane event, so I
hope our paths cross again. But but yeah, this has
been an absolute pleasure and.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Likewise, likewise, thank you so much for having me. It's
this is really fun to do and it's great to
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
How to Make It is recorded from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley mur Leidarn. For full
length videos of our episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel
at how to Make It Podcast. For more adventures with
Emily and Haley, follow us on Instagram at how to
(46:56):
Make It Podcast, where you'll find clips from today's episode,
many episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like and subscribe
to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever other
fine podcasts are found.
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