August 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Director and writer Christian Swegal joins Emily to discuss what inspired his new film 'Sovereign,' working with Jacob Tremblay and Nick Offerman, and Christian's best advice to aspiring directors. We discuss what it takes to write a great character, how Christian worked his way into the director's chair, and Nick Offerman's advice on reading reviews.
You can stream 'Sovereign' now on Apple TV, Prime Video, Google Play, and Fandango at Home.
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You can stream 'Sovereign' now on Apple TV, Prime Video, Google Play, and Fandango at Home.
Follow us on Instagram: @HowToMakeItPodcast
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: @HowToMakeItPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
After meeting online, we became international best friends who bonded
over how hard it is to find success in the
entertainment industry.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
May that may just sound so much more serious than
we actually are. Should we switch roles on this time? Okay,
see that's the intro.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Hi, my name is Christian Swegel, and I think I
first wanted to be a professional baseball player when I
was a little kid. Classic classic, Yeah, pretty pre standard.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
What killed the the baseball dream?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I mean, I'm just not a professional athlete that one. Yeah,
that kind of got ruled out, I think pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, there's usually the classics like firefighter, police officer, vet sports,
you know, professional sports player. Yeah, we've had a couple
of Indiana Joneses recently. So at what point did you
decide you wanted to work in in film and TV?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It was it was in high school. I was really
dedicated to sports when I was in high school, like
freshman year, you know, I played football and I was
not very big to play football, but I really my
ambition sort of far exceeded my talent in that area,
and so much so that I got a number of concussions.
(01:50):
And so I would just you know, charge and get
knocked out. And that happened to me twice. And then
after the second time, you know, my parents, uh, my
parents were like, you probably need to stop doing this
and like, and so I just i'd always like, you know,
messed around with cameras and stuff, and and so I
just sort of turned in that direction. And once I did,
(02:13):
I just loved it and it felt like my outlet.
And I really haven't looked back.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Since were you a theater kid in high school?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I wasn't. No, I'm too shy for that, you know,
too shy for I don't that was too sort of
the thing. The thing I liked about filmmaking is that
it felt a way to do something where you could
sort of like get across your perspective and you could
have an outlet to sort of connect with people, but
you could you know, kind of like drop a tape
(02:42):
or a DVD or whatever and then leave. And I
still I still like that.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Okay, Yeah, I mean I guess that makes sense. I
was always the one who was like, can more people
watch what I'm doing?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So? But I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
My my co host is the same. She's an intimacy coordinator.
Oh wow, and she does not She's like tells me
all the time. She's like, I'm not a performer at all.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
But but yeah. I Then, So for college, what did
you study if you went?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, I did. I studied. I went to USC and
went to the film program there. Wow, And it was
a you know, great experience and met a lot of
really incredible people that I still keep in touch with.
But between sort of college and getting to direct my
first feature took me much much longer than I anticipated
(03:40):
and was just sort of way less of a direct
route as I you know, I than I thought it
would be.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think that's a common theme in anyone we talked
to that's in film, it's or television.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And it's like, oh it was ten years, it was
twenty years.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
It was like, you know, in college, I was like
it was basically like okay, go do it, and then
you're like, okay, when is that gonna end?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, it's it's unique. I mean, it's not it's not
like music or photography or painting. It's it's an industrial
art and you need you know, you need hundreds of
people to make a movie and a lot of resources.
And so I think, you know, just getting that level
of support behind you, you know, people take a lot
of different paths to to get that, and it's it's difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So based on what you thought was going to happen,
what would you say was the biggest difference in the
route that you ended up taking to get there.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I had this impression, and it was a false impression,
but I had this impression out of school that like
you would write something or make something and then some
sort of committee or people in charge would see it
and then decide you get to do your thing. And
(05:08):
it's so subjective, you know, filmmaking, you know, like any
kind of art form is just it's so subjective. And
there's my experience at least has been that there's not
really anybody in charge, you know that you just I
wish I had known, you know, my advice now to
(05:29):
if I could go back and give myself this advice
would be, take an iPhone or whatever you can get
your hands on, and go make your thing, because it's
even with the money, like then you have all kinds
of other layers of expenses. You know, It's not like
it's it's that much of a difference. You know. Like
(05:50):
I was a cinematographer on a movie I don't know,
over a decade ago that that played festivals and we
did that movie for like you know, a thousand dollars
or something, and I was shocked, like, really, between that
and other, you know, bigger budget films that I've been
a part of, like the You're still dealing with actors
(06:12):
and a camera and some lights and it's not that
big of a difference. You should just go and do
your thing and and work with the resources that you
have out the gate and just go for it.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, that's that's basically. I'm an actor, and that's where
I'm at. Where I made a reel in my apartment
because I was like, I don't have any show, and
someone was like, do you have any And I was
like no, if I did, I wouldn't be sending me
and my own fire. But this is this is where
(06:44):
where we're at.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
And I feel like now I think making things is
so much more accessible.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Than it ever was totally, I mean, and being a.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Kid, and the video camera was the giant thing with
the VH safe in it. And now at least I
can lift my phone. And so after you graduate, what
was your first job, whether it was in the industry
or not.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, I was part of like a little me and
a friend of mine who we're still friends. She's great's
she works in the record business now as a creative
creative director for a big label. But we had a
company that we started while I was still in college
that was like a little music video collective, Like we
(07:35):
would direct these music videos and we had some success
doing that and worked with some cool artists. And so
my first job out of college was directing music videos.
But like her and I had an office and we
were splitting everything, and so it was really exciting to
just get to shoot things. But also it was hard
to like pay the rent, and so she was eventually like,
(07:57):
I have to go get a real job, and same
for me, and that job for me became editing. I
just worked as an editor for a long time. I
enjoyed it and it was a good trade craft to
have that allowed me to write scripts also, and so
then I started writing scripts and the first few scripts
(08:20):
that I wrote, you know, would get optioned or you know,
but everybody would always just tell me, like, you can't
direct this. And so I had a lot of scripts
that I wrote that I would have directed if I
had been more sort of clear about what I was doing.
But I thought, Okay, well no, let's get my foot
in the door, and so I did that. But then
(08:43):
I had a couple of experiences with those projects where
I saw, even as the writer, you know, you can
get once that purchase happens, they can rewrite you, and
they do. They it gets turned into something crazy. You know,
you can have more writers brought. In some cases, I
wasn't even the final writer on the thing credited, and
(09:04):
I was fine with that because it just wasn't what
was written. And so after that experience and having an
experience a couple of times, I just felt like with
this one, finally I was like, you know what, I
want to be a writer director. Why am I being
such a chicken about it? Like I know what I'm doing,
let's just go. And so yeah, that's what brought me
(09:25):
to this project.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
And then once you wrote the script, what was the
difference in how you behaved then versus before?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
When you were happy to hand it off.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think with this one with Sovereign.
I wrote the script in twenty twenty one, and I
just was very clear from the get go that like,
I'm directing this, even if I'm doing this movie like
with puppets somewhere in a community theater, like I'm doing it.
(10:00):
You know, this is happening. And I found a great producer,
my producer, Nick Mosseri, who was the only producer on
the film, and which is really a rare thing, and
he really believed in it, and he was like, yeah,
let's figure this out. And we just had a mentality
of like, we're going to do this movie even if
(10:21):
it's just a micro budget thing. And then we had
incredible actors get involved and that changed it, and then
other people got involved, and so it ended up kind
of turning into a real thing, you know, definitely, But
it started out as just we're going to do this,
however we have to do it.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It would be a really intense puppet show.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Uh, did you write it with people in mind or
did you just write it based on the characters himself?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I wrote it based on like there's a lot of
there's a lot of research online about the real story.
There's a lot of like academic research around the real story.
There's a lot of videos. I'd had some personal experience
in my life with a family member that got involved
in sovereign ideology really as part of like a mental
(11:14):
health issue they were having, and so I felt like
I really knew that world, and then there was a
lot of research to back it up. So I really
just kind of wrote to the real character rather than
any particular actor. But Nick nick Offerman was definitely my first,
you know, as soon as I don't know, He's always
(11:35):
been one of my favorite actors, and I just felt
like he had the physicality and it just felt like,
oh man, he'd be perfect for this, and you know,
but we didn't know if we could get it to
him even.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And how tired of you are people making the comparison
of Ron Swanton and this character.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
It's great because it's like he has a he has
a body of work that's sort of like referential to
this in a different way, you know, obviously, and he
he gets to you know, he's played this sort of
like parody really comedic character for years that he's known for,
and I think in this movie he gets to kind
of like drill down on like the real life version
(12:12):
a little bit. Yeah, so yeah, it's it's cool. I like,
I like the comparison.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Actually, I saw someone who was like, this is rawn
if he had stayed with Tammy or something, which felt
very true when you're when you're writing a character like that.
I mean, I know you said you you had somewhat
of a personal experience, But how do you make a
character that people want to stick around for for the
(12:44):
entirety of the movie, like adding that level of almost
like you're not rooting for them, but but you want
to see how it turns out. How do you kind
of balance the intensity of that of writing a character
like that and and making them human the same time.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah, I mean I think that I don't know the
way I think of it always, like in character definitely first,
you know, and everything. I think. I think that's why
actors are such great writers and directors usually is because
they have to inhabit a character and if something feels
false for the questions that they're having to be able
to act that character, those are the same questions that
(13:23):
need to be answered to be able to like really
write a character. And so sometimes if I'm working on something,
I'll just think, like, well, how would I pitch this
character to an actor, and like what are the questions
they would start asking? And if I can't answer those
that I know like I don't know that character well enough,
or they don't have enough of an arc, or they
don't have enough like going on, and then I think, really,
(13:45):
in any movie, I mean not every movie, but a
lot of movies and a lot of great movies, I think,
you know, it's not just about a character's arc, it's
really about a relationship arc. Like you're not just talking
about We'll talk a lot about character arcs, like well,
somebody goes from being introverted extroverted, or you know, from
(14:05):
being slimy to wholesome or whatever their arc is, but
like that arc is always expressed through like a central relationship.
Usually there's usually like somebody that they're interacting with that
that relationship goes from being close to separated or separated
close or And I think when you think of it
in terms of like what's your central relationship, that's really
(14:26):
the heart of your movie. And sometimes it's romantic. Sometimes
it's like fathers and sons, like in my movie or
you know, and that doesn't mean there's not supporting characters,
but there usually is that kind of like central core
relationship to the movie that is sort of like what
gets people bought into, Like how are those two characters
relating to each other? I think do you.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Think the relationship could be not necessarily with a person,
like would the Journey with a with a relationship with
like an institution count or do you think it's more
character to character base.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I don't know. I mean, I think that's probably like
I'm sure there's great examples of that. There probably are
great examples of that, I think. I think, however, my
my sort of I don't know, maybe maybe my guests
in that case would be that like they probably found
a really incredible way to like make you care about that.
You know, yeah, I know that, Like certainly there's been
(15:27):
movies about like people in their pets or like you know,
like Castaway. I don't know, you yeah, yeah, so but
you care like for some reason, you know? So yeah, yeah,
I think so.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So you said you got into editing.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I'm just assuming that's the skill you learned while you
were at USC.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I just I think I learned it more just on
my own, just messing around with software and stuff. But
certainly like film school was a great place to like,
you know, we had classes that taught you different things
and stuff. And but the editing software is so available now.
I feel like it's really it's kind of like step one.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
What software do you use?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I mean, I started out using Final Cut when I
was a kid, and then and then went to Avid basically,
so I use Avid mostly, but Premiere is great too.
I've used for a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
That's my day job.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
So I'm like, yeah, there you go. Switch.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I don't know I ever used Premiere.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But Premiere is great. It's super intuitive, and yeah, I
mean you can do everything. You can do everything you
can do with Avid. It's just Avid is a little
bit I find it. I don't know. I I think
I've maybe worked with it for so long. It's just
a little bit more like I feel like I'm faster
on it or something.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, we're not sponsored by any of these people. I
just for myself really.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
And then you've done a couple of different jobs on
a film set, right besides you said cinematography.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, so I started out. Yeah, I feel like
I went every different direction to try. I always had
this theory that like, well, I'll work my way up
in another area and then I'll get to direct, And
I should have just I should have just directed, because
if I was honest with myself about what I wanted
to do, it would have been a much straighter line.
(17:34):
But yeah, I worked. I've worked as an editor. I've
worked as a DP. I used to DP some commercials
and shot a movie called Carolyn and Jackie that was
a Tribeca in like twenty twelve that was a little
like independent drama. And so I've you know, worked in
(17:55):
camera departments on different things.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
But how do you get how do you like decide
to even if it's not what you want to do.
How do you decide to do that and then get
to do it, because because some people would not even
know how to get there, even if it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
What they want to do.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I think having, you know, I think film school was
a good network for me. I grew up in like
Los Angeles area also, and so I just knew a
lot of people trying to do this, and so it
was always just a thing of like if a friend
of mine was doing something, I would just pitch myself
(18:34):
to be like, hey I want to help you know,
or let me edit your thing, or hey do you
need somebody to shoot your thing? I'll come out, you know,
And I just liked that. I don't know, it always
felt like very entrepreneurial or something like somebody would announce
they were doing a little film project and then it
was exciting, you know, It's like, oh, okay, like we
should all do this together.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, I did the wrong thing.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I was in LA for ten years and I made
friends with people who were two like I could never
ask anything of because I'm not going to be like,
can I do this really important thing on your major film?
So yeah, now I'm like, let me try to find
people who are in the same position as myself.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
But yeah, I know film school. I know.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I have a couple of friends who went to filme school,
and their network has been really invaluable. I mean it's
been like over ten years since we all graduated. But
in just in terms of like getting jobs out of college,
do you have a job besides directing and writing that
was your favorite that you did as a detour or
(19:43):
do you just prefer directing and writing.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
I mean, yeah, I can't say that there was a favorite.
It was just always a thing of like I would
say my favorite would probably be shooting, Like I liked
being a DP the most. If I had to pick,
like what would I do secondary, I would say probably that.
But it was the hardest in some ways to transition
(20:05):
into direct thing I felt because of the time commitment,
and so when I was going down that path and
then I worked on a couple of different things and
it was like there's no way. It was almost financially
as insecure as just trying to be a writer director,
and it took you away and I just felt like
(20:26):
this isn't a good day job to have. I felt
like editing for me was the best day job of
just a platform that I could clock in, do my
stuff be done. I would have time in the evenings
or in the morning to write, it felt like. So
that was the thing that I leaned on the most
to just kind of like keep the lights on. I
think at least with writing, like you can like break
(20:48):
it up and think about things. You can always kind
of be writing. Even you can say I'm going to
take a walk and you're still sort of writing, you know. Yeah,
the solitary part of it is like I think maybe
that's any creative well maybe not every creative thing. I
guess acting is not is not that at all, but
but certainly there's a lot of aspects of filmmaking that
are solitary.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, did you ever you've worked in TV as
well on a set or just was it film?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I've worked in TV, Like I've sold television pitches as
a writer. There was I sold up a TV pitch
to like Sci Fi Channel years ago. I sold up
I was part of a pitch that was sold to
AMC for this series that Werner Herzog was going to direct.
(21:35):
But none of the things that none of those projects
ended up going to series. So we would just have
like little mini rooms and like write the pilot and
all that stuff, but they never unfortunately made its air.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
And how do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It's it's yeah, it's not it's not great. It's I
don't know, it's maybe. I'm sure once you get something
on television, it's fantastic. I mean, I know a lot
of writers that are working in that space and it's
great and they love it and it's you know, it's
a great living. But there there does seem to be
a lot of work on the writing side of thing.
(22:11):
Also in features, where you know, there's a lot of
development stuff, Like there's a lot of jobs that you're doing,
paid jobs even that you're doing and you're just they
don't get made. You know, you're you're working on drafts
or you're you know, show bibles or pitches or mini
rooms or whatever. Like you're just doing things and it's
(22:31):
really creative and you get really excited about it, but
ultimately it just doesn't, you know, end up getting made
for whatever reason.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Do you have any advice you would give to somebody
who because I think a lot of people get don't
start because of that because they don't know whether or
not it's going to lead to anything. And if it
doesn't lead to anything, then that what does that mean?
So like what would do if that one who doesn't
even start?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I don't know my you know, my personal experience is
so it's going to be like every single person has
had a different experience. And like I know people that
have worked in television and showrunners and they're wildly successful
doing that, and they've had really great mentors or lucky breaks,
or they came up through like a system of being
(23:21):
a writer's assistant. I mean, the only thing I would
say is like I think, and then this would be
advice just for me again, Like I would just try
to be really honest about what it is you really
want to do, not so much what you think is
going to pay off or what you think is marketable,
because the truth is, there's just so many easier ways
(23:43):
to make a living in the world. Even if you're
the most successful person in this business, you know, there's
just this is you're in the arts. This is the arts.
Like you have to remember that it's not you know,
it's it's a business, yes, but but it still is
the arts. And you know, there's it's such an easier
(24:06):
path to even probably go to medical school or something
or whatever. You know. So if if that's your main priority,
then you probably should think about that, you know, because
but if you're honest about what you want to do,
and you say, like for me to be honest, I
had to say I want to be a writer or director,
that's what I want to do. It took me a
(24:26):
lot of years to gain the confidence to even be
able to kind of admit that to myself. But if
you're interested in features, I would say right features. If
you want to create TV shows and that's your dream,
then create TV shows and then right things that you
find compelling, don't. I think the worst advice is like
(24:47):
some of the best intentioned advice that you get from people,
which is like, you know, write this or write that.
Like I had. I had people in my sphere early
on out of school that would, you know, try to
get me to write horror movies or write some kind
of other thing, and I just didn't connect with it.
(25:07):
And so I'd write these projects and they were just flat,
and it was because I didn't care about it at all,
and sort of when I started just like following my
own taste, and you realize like that then goes out
and there are other people that share your taste. You
know you'll find them, they'll find you like, and then
that you kind of build your your sort of fan
base in your career off of that. I think the.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Only time I've thought it was valid to tell someone
they have to write something is my friend Ben, whose
last name is Slaughter and he's a writer, and I
was like, if you don't write horror, I think it
might be a waste, but it's fine. But that was
actually that was actually one of the questions I was
asking at Tribeca was a worst piece of advice, So
(25:50):
I had it on my list, asked you. So I'm
glad you brought it up. But also people were so
confused when I asked, like the pause was most of
the time I got with them before they could answer.
But I feel like it is, especially in this industry,
it's so much bad. It's so many people giving advice
(26:12):
from experiences they haven't had and like what they think
is correct, and then it's just it's just waste everybody time,
everybody's time.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, I mean I think I think there's like again,
like maybe and there's that's a danger in that, Like
maybe there's a successful genre writer out there that was, like,
you know, writing some sort of very niche stuff and
somebody said you need to be more this, and now
they're they're blown up, you know. So, But but I
(26:40):
do think like everybody's career is going to it's going
to take its own path, and like, I think your
best shot is to just be yourself and lean into
your own taste and the things that you truly want
to do, because I think if you fail on that,
you can at least feel like you were real about it, you.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Know, yeah, go out swinging.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So for sobird, you've been getting a lot of really
great reviews.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I also loved it.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I should mention that what is it is it like
to get that? I'll call it, I guess validation that
what you what you wrote is being enjoyed by the
people you hoped would enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's really gratifying too. It's
weird because, like I the most gratifying part of it
is like for me, was just the making of it
and collaborating with everybody, and you know, so that part
of it was just such a dream come true that,
like the reviews part, I kind of wanted to get
(27:53):
off the ride then, you know, I was like, I'm good,
you know, I don't need to stick around for this
part actually, like to the end here. But seeing that
the reviews have been positive and people are really responding
to it has been awesome. I'm really just touched to
see that people from such different backgrounds relate to it
(28:13):
in a different way. It's a you know, it's a
slow burn kind of a movie. It's a drama. It
deals with some pretty serious stuff. So it's not for everybody,
but I feel like I feel like you with a
movie this size, that's what we were trying to do.
We were kind of weren't trying to make a film
for everybody, because I think when you do that at
(28:34):
this sort of a with a little movie, then you
kind of end up pleasing nobody. So I've it's been awesome.
I mean, it's kind of surreal the whole thing, but
I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, I get the reviews part. I can't imagine. I
don't know, but not I don't know if it's anxiety,
but the like to love something making some if you're
making something for the right reasons, I feel like you're
like the joy was in this, but I'm supposed to
care about like this other thing. I had a friend
who had a major, he's a directorate, a major like
(29:08):
big Hollywood premiere, and I may or may not have
been hoping to attend. So I was like, hey, like
what's up, and he was like he was I think
he was in either Mexico or Japan. He was like,
I left the country, like I don't wanna I made
the movie, and then he just like left the country.
And I was like, that was the most extreme version
I've ever heard. But he has no which is why
(29:32):
I love him. He has no interest or patience for
the fanfare of like.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, because I think I think if you give valid like,
if you give validation and meaning to the good, then
you're going to give valid and meaning to the bad too. Yeah,
you have to sort of accept both them. And and
I do think that it's funny because we had one
really positive review come out the night of our premiere,
and afterwards I was with I don't think Nick would
(30:02):
mind me saying this, but I was with Nick Offerman
afterwards and this review and the Hollywood Reporter was really
praising his performance. I said, Nick, do you here, like
we got a great you know, got this great review,
and he was just like, don't care, you know. And
it wasn't that he doesn't care, it's that he was like,
I can't concern myself with that. And I'm learning that
really that's a healthy way to be because it's super stressful. You're,
(30:27):
you know, you're everybody's judging this thing that you really
care about, and I think you just have to like,
you know, control what you're doing, know that you've done
your best and then just like now it belongs to
everybody else, you know, do with it what you will
sort of.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, I think that's one of the pros of having
the struggle to finally have the courage to say exactly
what it is you want to do, is that you've
figured out exactly what it is you want to do
and you love it so much that you're going to
face a fear and so you know, like what you're
due north is and yeah, yeah, I would imagine it
(31:09):
gets difficult to to like not look under the rug.
But yeah, because Jacob, the amount of people who have
been like, I didn't know this was him, oh wow. Yeah,
because he's suddenly like grown up, but he like also incredible.
But yeah, I'm sure he also doesn't look like you know,
(31:35):
I want to concern himself with the comments section.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah he's said. I mean, those guys are just there.
They are real artists, and yeah, you know they're they're
incredibly busy too, you know. I think that's the other
thing about them is they're just they're on to the
next thing. Yes, the next thing is always really exciting.
You know, this is their little movie. They're glad to
be part of it.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh stop, No, it's bigger than that. I'm trying to think.
I'm trying to think if Jacob was on. I'm just
gonna look.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Was he on?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I had? Do you know what? Yes, he was. Do
you know Billy on the Street with Billy Eichner.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I'm not good with these things, but.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Billy Eichner a as a comedian and he had this
show that started off very like.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I think it was. It might have predated YouTube, but.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
It's like him in a microphone and he runs around
New York and basically yells with people.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
But it got really big.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And Jacob was on when he was little, and it's
very funny.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
You should look it up.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's Billy on the Street and he's basically just Billy
and Jacob are running around and Billy's like yelling at
people that Jacob's more talented as.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Like a small child.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
It's very and then and then I was the same
way because I knew him as this like little kid.
And yeah, it's it's a little jarring in a good way. Yeah,
when you don't recognize somebody.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, I mean he's he really got to he's he's
such a phenomenal actor and his his sort of his
emotional depth and maturity is so impressive for anybody's age,
but especially for someone his age, and it was just
(33:30):
exciting to see, you know, this was this was kind
of a coming of age story in a way our film,
and it was really exciting to just kind of get
to introduce him to people as an adult in this movie.
I mean, he's he's in a lot of a lot
of other things right now too, but it's just sort
of an I guess what I'm saying is it's a
cool time to have kind of caught him in his
(33:51):
career sort of a snapshot, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Definitely, we have a couple of questions we ask every episode.
One of them is kind of the basis for the
whole show, which is this idea of making it and
how that means something different to everybody else. So if
you had to define what making it means, and this
(34:15):
can be in career or life in general.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Oh wow, that's cool. I mean, I think just sort
of generally speaking, it's like, I think, getting to do
what you love and find a way to make that
sustainable and have a great family and home life. Also,
I think I don't think making it is like just
making it in your career. I think that that work
(34:42):
life balance is super important because there are so many
things in this career that are out of your control too.
You don't want that to be Like my wife always
says that to me. She's like, this is exciting, but
like you need to make it like this much of
the pie because yeah, you know, because like it's it
doesn't as much as it kind of defines you, like
(35:03):
you know, you can't let it define you. You have
to like, you know. I think the coolest part for
me about this experience was even like all my friends
came out, you know for the movie, and like, you know,
thirty of my friends were there, and they would have
been there whether I was like the movie was good
or bad or not even a movie, Like they would
have just showed up, you know, And I think that's
(35:24):
kind of winning in a way. And yeah, for me, though,
I mean career wise, getting to make my first film
is certainly a step in that direction. Making it for me,
I think in my career means getting to do this
in a sustainable way, hopefully getting to do the next
film and just create things that I that I believe
(35:46):
in and think are meaningful. And try to like leave
behind a body of work that that is like representative
of like my taste and hopefully put something positive, positive
into the world.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Great answer. The last three people have mentioned work life balance, yeah,
part of their Yeah, which is.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Which has been nice because I think if it ends
up defining you, you're kind of screwed or you're just
gonna be miserable.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Yeah, I mean without like, I know somebody I grew
up around someone in a related field in the music
business that was very very very successful in that one area,
but had none of the family life at all. Yeah,
And I see that person now in their seventies, and
(36:45):
it's really not a nice picture. It's like all these
trophies and and it's kind of like who cares, really,
who cares? And so I do think keeping like a
view of that is is really important.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
So I'll ask this selfishly for myself.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
When you are still trying to have it be any
part of your living, how do you have work life
balance when there's that voice that's like, oh I could work,
someone else's working for another hour, someone's doing this for more,
Like when you're still kind of trying to call.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Your way in I think that I think that again,
like it's hard. Maybe in the arts. Again, I would say,
maybe this is different from another field. But if you
say like writing and directing, I don't think you have
anything of value to say unless you have another life.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
I don't think as an actor, probably you have much
to say or connect. You know, that stuff can't happen
in a classroom like you know, like even Nick Offerman
we talked about, you know, his sort of path on
set sometimes and he was a a set carpenter and
he worked on a you know, Berner Herzog like another
(38:04):
you know, his advice would always be, like go be
a bouncer in a weird club, or like go work
on a boat. You do need to have these enriching
other experiences, and because I think it just enriches your
artistic life and what you have to say, and it
helps you find your voice. I don't know if that's
a satisfying answer or not.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I'm not sure that's great. It's very true. I I
when I was in La I was like working three
jobs most of the time, and a lot of them
were well it was there was retail, I worked in
a hotel, I was in Nay and so yeah, I definitely,
especially in a major city, it's like, yeah, all you
(38:46):
see all day our characters. But yeah, I think I
think that's great advice too, because it gives permission to
go outside.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Yeah. Yeah, you can't be so like locked in and
yeah and stressed about it because it's just gonna That's
one of the hard things also, is like I think
for certain types of personalities that are like I'm going
to be a success. You know, if you look at
who's rewarded in this business, sometimes it's not always. Sometimes
(39:18):
it's the people that can just relax and let life
come to them in these weird ways that end up
getting these crazy breaks and stuff. And it's very difficult
to plan like a linear path in that way, and
I think the uncertainty of that is really just a
part of what this is.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
You know.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, so I think I don't know. I guess the
only advice I would give is like going back to
sort of trying to take as much control as you
can to just like go do your thing. You know,
if you're like an actor, I would say, write your
own material, Like write your own material and write your
own stuff and just go make it. Because if you
look at all the great actors that have like kind
of broken out that way. That feels like a bit
(39:59):
more and kind of something you can actually like take
charge of.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, and so keeping that in mind, I'll segue into
the last question. If you had to put kind of
a chapter title on your career journey so far, it
can be a single word or we've had very long
run on sentences that involve like parentheses, and what would
(40:24):
that be something to put a stamp on your career
up to this this point.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
If it was a.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Chapter in a book, boy, that's a good question. I
think it would be like finding my Voice maybe, which
sounds maybe kind of like a lame title chapter.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Everyone else the word everyone uses the word corny after
they say they're like, that's that's great, but no, it's
it's not it's great.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, I think finding my voice, I think I think
just again, I had a weird moment a couple of
years ago. This was actually like twenty eighteen. I'd been
doing kind of what I described like, I'd been working
as an auditor and this and that, and I had
a you know, sold some scripts, and I was with
a friend of mine who I hadn't seen in a
(41:13):
long time who was also in the business, and we
went and got a drink and he just is like
the nicest guy in the world and like turned to me,
like really innocently and was like he was like, so,
like what do you like? What are you trying to do?
And I was like so upset by that question. Like
his question was like are you trying to be like
(41:35):
a director? Are you trying to be like a writer?
Like what do you like? What are you trying to do? Yeah,
And he just asked me it was such a simple question.
And I went home and I was really upset and
I was like, ugh, I just feel so called out.
And it was really like another moment of like what
am I doing? Like you know, why am I being
(41:55):
such a chicken about this? Like just it's really hard
I even, you know, I would hate even going to
things sometimes where somebody would just ask a really simple
question like so what do you do? I felt like
the answer I gave them was like so long. It
was like, well, I'm an editor and I'm also writing
this and blah blah blah, and it was like I
wish I would have just had the courage to say,
like I'm a filmmaker and let them deal with how
(42:18):
that felt, you know, and you know, even though it
sounds kind of ridiculous, it is what you're trying to
do and you just have to sort of be I
think bold enough to try to go for it, you know,
better or worse.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
We had an actor early on in the show we
interviewed and his definition of making it was being able
to walk into a room or like some sort of
social gathering and say what he did and not.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Not blush about it or care about it.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, because everyone would say to him, well have I
seen you anything? Or what was the last thing you did?
Or what It's like, what what can I reference? And
he would get he would be like not want to
answer that question, and he's like getting to a point
of being like, yeah, it was this, that's it.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Well, because what you're saying really is like, I'm trying
to do something that the odds are going to be tough,
and everybody knows, you know, but I'm going to take
a shot at it. And and you know, if you
had said, you know, go into a party and say
like like, oh, well I'm a mathematician, you know, nobody's
going to be like, well, what problems have you ever solved?
(43:31):
You know, or you know, I'm a computer science I'm
an engineer. You know, nobody's gonna But when you say
certain things like I'm a novelist or I'm a whatever,
like people, their radar goes up, and for good reason, Yeah,
I get it, And so it can feel it can
feel really, you know, kind of revealing and sort of
embarrassing to just even say that you want to do
(43:53):
something like that.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I feel like it's the embellishing the resume, uh situation
where it's like, oh, I worked on this show and
people are like, what'd you do?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
And I'm like, I don't want to say I got
everyone's lunch.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I assisted Matt Damon in staying yeah, no, but that's yeah,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
It's it's and it's really difficult.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
But also when you feel I feel like, when you
feel called out and angry and embarrassed, that's like a
good indicator that you need to like get more confidence
in what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yeah yeah, or like there's just yeah, you're being like
to not honest with yourself, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I am obsessed with severance and I've been slowly collecting
the cast members by interviewing them on but I saw
I have an interviewed Trammelle Tullman, but I saw an
interview where he was like, I reached the point in
my life where I realized if I didn't do exactly
what I wanted to do in the arts, like I
was making everyone around me miserable too. And I was like,
(44:59):
if I wanted everyone to have like essentially I'm paraphrasing horribly,
but like the experience even with me and their lives,
like it was going to involve me actually going after what.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
I Yeah, I wanted, Yeah, totally, I feel that way. Like,
you know, I have a family, I have I have kids,
you know, and there was a lot of I think
part of that for me was just you know, really
wanting to make sure that I was provided for them
and and you know, so there was sort of a
guilt around like well what I really want to do
(45:31):
is this, you know, And it's still always a negotiation
and you have to do what you have to do
for your family. But I think, yeah, I agree with
all that.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
How to Make It is reported from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley Miura Le Darren.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
For full length videos of.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Our episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel, how to Make
It Podcast for more adventures with Emily and Haley.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Follow us on.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Instagram at how to Make It Podcast, where you'll find
clips from today's episode, mini episode clips, and more random nonsense.
Like and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
or wherever other fine podcasts are found
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
After meeting online, we became international best friends who bonded
over how hard it is to find success in the
entertainment industry.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Join us and our celebrity co authors as they help
us write the book on how to make.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
It and, more importantly, uncover what making it even means.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
May that may just sound so much more serious than
we actually are. Should we switch roles on this time? Okay,
see that's the intro.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Hi, my name is Christian Swegel, and I think I
first wanted to be a professional baseball player when I
was a little kid. Classic classic, Yeah, pretty pre standard.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
What killed the the baseball dream?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I mean, I'm just not a professional athlete that one. Yeah,
that kind of got ruled out, I think pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, there's usually the classics like firefighter, police officer, vet sports,
you know, professional sports player. Yeah, we've had a couple
of Indiana Joneses recently. So at what point did you
decide you wanted to work in in film and TV?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It was it was in high school. I was really
dedicated to sports when I was in high school, like
freshman year, you know, I played football and I was
not very big to play football, but I really my
ambition sort of far exceeded my talent in that area,
and so much so that I got a number of concussions.
(01:50):
And so I would just you know, charge and get
knocked out. And that happened to me twice. And then
after the second time, you know, my parents, uh, my
parents were like, you probably need to stop doing this
and like, and so I just i'd always like, you know,
messed around with cameras and stuff, and and so I
just sort of turned in that direction. And once I did,
(02:13):
I just loved it and it felt like my outlet.
And I really haven't looked back.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Since were you a theater kid in high school?
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I wasn't. No, I'm too shy for that, you know,
too shy for I don't that was too sort of
the thing. The thing I liked about filmmaking is that
it felt a way to do something where you could
sort of like get across your perspective and you could
have an outlet to sort of connect with people, but
you could you know, kind of like drop a tape
(02:42):
or a DVD or whatever and then leave. And I
still I still like that.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Okay, Yeah, I mean I guess that makes sense. I
was always the one who was like, can more people
watch what I'm doing?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So? But I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
My my co host is the same. She's an intimacy coordinator.
Oh wow, and she does not She's like tells me
all the time. She's like, I'm not a performer at all.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
But but yeah. I Then, So for college, what did
you study if you went?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Yeah, I did. I studied. I went to USC and
went to the film program there. Wow, And it was
a you know, great experience and met a lot of
really incredible people that I still keep in touch with.
But between sort of college and getting to direct my
first feature took me much much longer than I anticipated
(03:40):
and was just sort of way less of a direct
route as I you know, I than I thought it
would be.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think that's a common theme in anyone we talked
to that's in film, it's or television.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And it's like, oh it was ten years, it was
twenty years.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
It was like, you know, in college, I was like
it was basically like okay, go do it, and then
you're like, okay, when is that gonna end?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Yeah, it's it's unique. I mean, it's not it's not
like music or photography or painting. It's it's an industrial
art and you need you know, you need hundreds of
people to make a movie and a lot of resources.
And so I think, you know, just getting that level
of support behind you, you know, people take a lot
of different paths to to get that, and it's it's difficult.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
So based on what you thought was going to happen,
what would you say was the biggest difference in the
route that you ended up taking to get there.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I had this impression, and it was a false impression,
but I had this impression out of school that like
you would write something or make something and then some
sort of committee or people in charge would see it
and then decide you get to do your thing. And
(05:08):
it's so subjective, you know, filmmaking, you know, like any
kind of art form is just it's so subjective. And
there's my experience at least has been that there's not
really anybody in charge, you know that you just I
wish I had known, you know, my advice now to
(05:29):
if I could go back and give myself this advice
would be, take an iPhone or whatever you can get
your hands on, and go make your thing, because it's
even with the money, like then you have all kinds
of other layers of expenses. You know, It's not like
it's it's that much of a difference. You know. Like
(05:50):
I was a cinematographer on a movie I don't know,
over a decade ago that that played festivals and we
did that movie for like you know, a thousand dollars
or something, and I was shocked, like, really, between that
and other, you know, bigger budget films that I've been
a part of, like the You're still dealing with actors
(06:12):
and a camera and some lights and it's not that
big of a difference. You should just go and do
your thing and and work with the resources that you
have out the gate and just go for it.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, that's that's basically. I'm an actor, and that's where
I'm at. Where I made a reel in my apartment
because I was like, I don't have any show, and
someone was like, do you have any And I was
like no, if I did, I wouldn't be sending me
and my own fire. But this is this is where
(06:44):
where we're at.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
And I feel like now I think making things is
so much more accessible.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Than it ever was totally, I mean, and being a.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Kid, and the video camera was the giant thing with
the VH safe in it. And now at least I
can lift my phone. And so after you graduate, what
was your first job, whether it was in the industry
or not.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, I was part of like a little me and
a friend of mine who we're still friends. She's great's
she works in the record business now as a creative
creative director for a big label. But we had a
company that we started while I was still in college
that was like a little music video collective, Like we
(07:35):
would direct these music videos and we had some success
doing that and worked with some cool artists. And so
my first job out of college was directing music videos.
But like her and I had an office and we
were splitting everything, and so it was really exciting to
just get to shoot things. But also it was hard
to like pay the rent, and so she was eventually like,
(07:57):
I have to go get a real job, and same
for me, and that job for me became editing. I
just worked as an editor for a long time. I
enjoyed it and it was a good trade craft to
have that allowed me to write scripts also, and so
then I started writing scripts and the first few scripts
(08:20):
that I wrote, you know, would get optioned or you know,
but everybody would always just tell me, like, you can't
direct this. And so I had a lot of scripts
that I wrote that I would have directed if I
had been more sort of clear about what I was doing.
But I thought, Okay, well no, let's get my foot
in the door, and so I did that. But then
(08:43):
I had a couple of experiences with those projects where
I saw, even as the writer, you know, you can
get once that purchase happens, they can rewrite you, and
they do. They it gets turned into something crazy. You know,
you can have more writers brought. In some cases, I
wasn't even the final writer on the thing credited, and
(09:04):
I was fine with that because it just wasn't what
was written. And so after that experience and having an
experience a couple of times, I just felt like with
this one, finally I was like, you know what, I
want to be a writer director. Why am I being
such a chicken about it? Like I know what I'm doing,
let's just go. And so yeah, that's what brought me
(09:25):
to this project.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
And then once you wrote the script, what was the
difference in how you behaved then versus before?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
When you were happy to hand it off.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think with this one with Sovereign.
I wrote the script in twenty twenty one, and I
just was very clear from the get go that like,
I'm directing this, even if I'm doing this movie like
with puppets somewhere in a community theater, like I'm doing it.
(10:00):
You know, this is happening. And I found a great producer,
my producer, Nick Mosseri, who was the only producer on
the film, and which is really a rare thing, and
he really believed in it, and he was like, yeah,
let's figure this out. And we just had a mentality
of like, we're going to do this movie even if
(10:21):
it's just a micro budget thing. And then we had
incredible actors get involved and that changed it, and then
other people got involved, and so it ended up kind
of turning into a real thing, you know, definitely, But
it started out as just we're going to do this,
however we have to do it.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It would be a really intense puppet show.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Uh, did you write it with people in mind or
did you just write it based on the characters himself?
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I wrote it based on like there's a lot of
there's a lot of research online about the real story.
There's a lot of like academic research around the real story.
There's a lot of videos. I'd had some personal experience
in my life with a family member that got involved
in sovereign ideology really as part of like a mental
(11:14):
health issue they were having, and so I felt like
I really knew that world, and then there was a
lot of research to back it up. So I really
just kind of wrote to the real character rather than
any particular actor. But Nick nick Offerman was definitely my first,
you know, as soon as I don't know, He's always
(11:35):
been one of my favorite actors, and I just felt
like he had the physicality and it just felt like,
oh man, he'd be perfect for this, and you know,
but we didn't know if we could get it to
him even.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And how tired of you are people making the comparison
of Ron Swanton and this character.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
It's great because it's like he has a he has
a body of work that's sort of like referential to
this in a different way, you know, obviously, and he
he gets to you know, he's played this sort of
like parody really comedic character for years that he's known for,
and I think in this movie he gets to kind
of like drill down on like the real life version
(12:12):
a little bit. Yeah, so yeah, it's it's cool. I like,
I like the comparison.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Actually, I saw someone who was like, this is rawn
if he had stayed with Tammy or something, which felt
very true when you're when you're writing a character like that.
I mean, I know you said you you had somewhat
of a personal experience, But how do you make a
character that people want to stick around for for the
(12:44):
entirety of the movie, like adding that level of almost
like you're not rooting for them, but but you want
to see how it turns out. How do you kind
of balance the intensity of that of writing a character
like that and and making them human the same time.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah, I mean I think that I don't know the
way I think of it always, like in character definitely first,
you know, and everything. I think. I think that's why
actors are such great writers and directors usually is because
they have to inhabit a character and if something feels
false for the questions that they're having to be able
to act that character, those are the same questions that
(13:23):
need to be answered to be able to like really
write a character. And so sometimes if I'm working on something,
I'll just think, like, well, how would I pitch this
character to an actor, and like what are the questions
they would start asking? And if I can't answer those
that I know like I don't know that character well enough,
or they don't have enough of an arc, or they
don't have enough like going on, and then I think, really,
(13:45):
in any movie, I mean not every movie, but a
lot of movies and a lot of great movies, I think,
you know, it's not just about a character's arc, it's
really about a relationship arc. Like you're not just talking
about We'll talk a lot about character arcs, like well,
somebody goes from being introverted extroverted, or you know, from
(14:05):
being slimy to wholesome or whatever their arc is, but
like that arc is always expressed through like a central relationship.
Usually there's usually like somebody that they're interacting with that
that relationship goes from being close to separated or separated
close or And I think when you think of it
in terms of like what's your central relationship, that's really
(14:26):
the heart of your movie. And sometimes it's romantic. Sometimes
it's like fathers and sons, like in my movie or
you know, and that doesn't mean there's not supporting characters,
but there usually is that kind of like central core
relationship to the movie that is sort of like what
gets people bought into, Like how are those two characters
relating to each other? I think do you.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Think the relationship could be not necessarily with a person,
like would the Journey with a with a relationship with
like an institution count or do you think it's more
character to character base.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I don't know. I mean, I think that's probably like
I'm sure there's great examples of that. There probably are
great examples of that, I think. I think, however, my
my sort of I don't know, maybe maybe my guests
in that case would be that like they probably found
a really incredible way to like make you care about that.
You know, yeah, I know that, Like certainly there's been
(15:27):
movies about like people in their pets or like you know,
like Castaway. I don't know, you yeah, yeah, so but
you care like for some reason, you know? So yeah, yeah,
I think so.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So you said you got into editing.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I'm just assuming that's the skill you learned while you
were at USC.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I just I think I learned it more just on
my own, just messing around with software and stuff. But
certainly like film school was a great place to like,
you know, we had classes that taught you different things
and stuff. And but the editing software is so available now.
I feel like it's really it's kind of like step one.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
What software do you use?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I mean, I started out using Final Cut when I
was a kid, and then and then went to Avid basically,
so I use Avid mostly, but Premiere is great too.
I've used for a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
That's my day job.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
So I'm like, yeah, there you go. Switch.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I don't know I ever used Premiere.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But Premiere is great. It's super intuitive, and yeah, I
mean you can do everything. You can do everything you
can do with Avid. It's just Avid is a little
bit I find it. I don't know. I I think
I've maybe worked with it for so long. It's just
a little bit more like I feel like I'm faster
on it or something.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, we're not sponsored by any of these people. I
just for myself really.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
And then you've done a couple of different jobs on
a film set, right besides you said cinematography.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, yeah, so I started out. Yeah, I feel like
I went every different direction to try. I always had
this theory that like, well, I'll work my way up
in another area and then I'll get to direct, And
I should have just I should have just directed, because
if I was honest with myself about what I wanted
to do, it would have been a much straighter line.
(17:34):
But yeah, I worked. I've worked as an editor. I've
worked as a DP. I used to DP some commercials
and shot a movie called Carolyn and Jackie that was
a Tribeca in like twenty twelve that was a little
like independent drama. And so I've you know, worked in
(17:55):
camera departments on different things.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
But how do you get how do you like decide
to even if it's not what you want to do.
How do you decide to do that and then get
to do it, because because some people would not even
know how to get there, even if it's not.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
What they want to do.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I think having, you know, I think film school was
a good network for me. I grew up in like
Los Angeles area also, and so I just knew a
lot of people trying to do this, and so it
was always just a thing of like if a friend
of mine was doing something, I would just pitch myself
(18:34):
to be like, hey I want to help you know,
or let me edit your thing, or hey do you
need somebody to shoot your thing? I'll come out, you know,
And I just liked that. I don't know, it always
felt like very entrepreneurial or something like somebody would announce
they were doing a little film project and then it
was exciting, you know, It's like, oh, okay, like we
should all do this together.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, I did the wrong thing.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I was in LA for ten years and I made
friends with people who were two like I could never
ask anything of because I'm not going to be like,
can I do this really important thing on your major film?
So yeah, now I'm like, let me try to find
people who are in the same position as myself.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
But yeah, I know film school. I know.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I have a couple of friends who went to filme school,
and their network has been really invaluable. I mean it's
been like over ten years since we all graduated. But
in just in terms of like getting jobs out of college,
do you have a job besides directing and writing that
was your favorite that you did as a detour or
(19:43):
do you just prefer directing and writing.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
I mean, yeah, I can't say that there was a favorite.
It was just always a thing of like I would
say my favorite would probably be shooting, Like I liked
being a DP the most. If I had to pick,
like what would I do secondary, I would say probably that.
But it was the hardest in some ways to transition
(20:05):
into direct thing I felt because of the time commitment,
and so when I was going down that path and
then I worked on a couple of different things and
it was like there's no way. It was almost financially
as insecure as just trying to be a writer director,
and it took you away and I just felt like
(20:26):
this isn't a good day job to have. I felt
like editing for me was the best day job of
just a platform that I could clock in, do my
stuff be done. I would have time in the evenings
or in the morning to write, it felt like. So
that was the thing that I leaned on the most
to just kind of like keep the lights on. I
think at least with writing, like you can like break
(20:48):
it up and think about things. You can always kind
of be writing. Even you can say I'm going to
take a walk and you're still sort of writing, you know. Yeah,
the solitary part of it is like I think maybe
that's any creative well maybe not every creative thing. I
guess acting is not is not that at all, but
but certainly there's a lot of aspects of filmmaking that
are solitary.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, did you ever you've worked in TV as
well on a set or just was it film?
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I've worked in TV, Like I've sold television pitches as
a writer. There was I sold up a TV pitch
to like Sci Fi Channel years ago. I sold up
I was part of a pitch that was sold to
AMC for this series that Werner Herzog was going to direct.
(21:35):
But none of the things that none of those projects
ended up going to series. So we would just have
like little mini rooms and like write the pilot and
all that stuff, but they never unfortunately made its air.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
And how do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It's it's yeah, it's not it's not great. It's I
don't know, it's maybe. I'm sure once you get something
on television, it's fantastic. I mean, I know a lot
of writers that are working in that space and it's
great and they love it and it's you know, it's
a great living. But there there does seem to be
a lot of work on the writing side of thing.
(22:11):
Also in features, where you know, there's a lot of
development stuff, Like there's a lot of jobs that you're doing,
paid jobs even that you're doing and you're just they
don't get made. You know, you're you're working on drafts
or you're you know, show bibles or pitches or mini
rooms or whatever. Like you're just doing things and it's
(22:31):
really creative and you get really excited about it, but
ultimately it just doesn't, you know, end up getting made
for whatever reason.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Do you have any advice you would give to somebody
who because I think a lot of people get don't
start because of that because they don't know whether or
not it's going to lead to anything. And if it
doesn't lead to anything, then that what does that mean?
So like what would do if that one who doesn't
even start?
Speaker 3 (22:59):
I don't know my you know, my personal experience is
so it's going to be like every single person has
had a different experience. And like I know people that
have worked in television and showrunners and they're wildly successful
doing that, and they've had really great mentors or lucky breaks,
or they came up through like a system of being
(23:21):
a writer's assistant. I mean, the only thing I would
say is like I think, and then this would be
advice just for me again, Like I would just try
to be really honest about what it is you really
want to do, not so much what you think is
going to pay off or what you think is marketable,
because the truth is, there's just so many easier ways
(23:43):
to make a living in the world. Even if you're
the most successful person in this business, you know, there's
just this is you're in the arts. This is the arts.
Like you have to remember that it's not you know,
it's it's a business, yes, but but it still is
the arts. And you know, there's it's such an easier
(24:06):
path to even probably go to medical school or something
or whatever. You know. So if if that's your main priority,
then you probably should think about that, you know, because
but if you're honest about what you want to do,
and you say, like for me to be honest, I
had to say I want to be a writer or director,
that's what I want to do. It took me a
(24:26):
lot of years to gain the confidence to even be
able to kind of admit that to myself. But if
you're interested in features, I would say right features. If
you want to create TV shows and that's your dream,
then create TV shows and then right things that you
find compelling, don't. I think the worst advice is like
(24:47):
some of the best intentioned advice that you get from people,
which is like, you know, write this or write that.
Like I had. I had people in my sphere early
on out of school that would, you know, try to
get me to write horror movies or write some kind
of other thing, and I just didn't connect with it.
(25:07):
And so I'd write these projects and they were just flat,
and it was because I didn't care about it at all,
and sort of when I started just like following my
own taste, and you realize like that then goes out
and there are other people that share your taste. You
know you'll find them, they'll find you like, and then
that you kind of build your your sort of fan
base in your career off of that. I think the.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Only time I've thought it was valid to tell someone
they have to write something is my friend Ben, whose
last name is Slaughter and he's a writer, and I
was like, if you don't write horror, I think it
might be a waste, but it's fine. But that was
actually that was actually one of the questions I was
asking at Tribeca was a worst piece of advice, So
(25:50):
I had it on my list, asked you. So I'm
glad you brought it up. But also people were so
confused when I asked, like the pause was most of
the time I got with them before they could answer.
But I feel like it is, especially in this industry,
it's so much bad. It's so many people giving advice
(26:12):
from experiences they haven't had and like what they think
is correct, and then it's just it's just waste everybody time,
everybody's time.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, I mean I think I think there's like again,
like maybe and there's that's a danger in that, Like
maybe there's a successful genre writer out there that was, like,
you know, writing some sort of very niche stuff and
somebody said you need to be more this, and now
they're they're blown up, you know. So, But but I
(26:40):
do think like everybody's career is going to it's going
to take its own path, and like, I think your
best shot is to just be yourself and lean into
your own taste and the things that you truly want
to do, because I think if you fail on that,
you can at least feel like you were real about it, you.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Know, yeah, go out swinging.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So for sobird, you've been getting a lot of really
great reviews.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I also loved it.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I should mention that what is it is it like
to get that? I'll call it, I guess validation that
what you what you wrote is being enjoyed by the
people you hoped would enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's really gratifying too. It's
weird because, like I the most gratifying part of it
is like for me, was just the making of it
and collaborating with everybody, and you know, so that part
of it was just such a dream come true that,
like the reviews part, I kind of wanted to get
(27:53):
off the ride then, you know, I was like, I'm good,
you know, I don't need to stick around for this
part actually, like to the end here. But seeing that
the reviews have been positive and people are really responding
to it has been awesome. I'm really just touched to
see that people from such different backgrounds relate to it
(28:13):
in a different way. It's a you know, it's a
slow burn kind of a movie. It's a drama. It
deals with some pretty serious stuff. So it's not for everybody,
but I feel like I feel like you with a
movie this size, that's what we were trying to do.
We were kind of weren't trying to make a film
for everybody, because I think when you do that at
(28:34):
this sort of a with a little movie, then you
kind of end up pleasing nobody. So I've it's been awesome.
I mean, it's kind of surreal the whole thing, but
I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, I get the reviews part. I can't imagine. I
don't know, but not I don't know if it's anxiety,
but the like to love something making some if you're
making something for the right reasons, I feel like you're
like the joy was in this, but I'm supposed to
care about like this other thing. I had a friend
who had a major, he's a directorate, a major like
(29:08):
big Hollywood premiere, and I may or may not have
been hoping to attend. So I was like, hey, like
what's up, and he was like he was I think
he was in either Mexico or Japan. He was like,
I left the country, like I don't wanna I made
the movie, and then he just like left the country.
And I was like, that was the most extreme version
I've ever heard. But he has no which is why
(29:32):
I love him. He has no interest or patience for
the fanfare of like.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, because I think I think if you give valid like,
if you give validation and meaning to the good, then
you're going to give valid and meaning to the bad too. Yeah,
you have to sort of accept both them. And and
I do think that it's funny because we had one
really positive review come out the night of our premiere,
and afterwards I was with I don't think Nick would
(30:02):
mind me saying this, but I was with Nick Offerman
afterwards and this review and the Hollywood Reporter was really
praising his performance. I said, Nick, do you here, like
we got a great you know, got this great review,
and he was just like, don't care, you know. And
it wasn't that he doesn't care, it's that he was like,
I can't concern myself with that. And I'm learning that
really that's a healthy way to be because it's super stressful. You're,
(30:27):
you know, you're everybody's judging this thing that you really
care about, and I think you just have to like,
you know, control what you're doing, know that you've done
your best and then just like now it belongs to
everybody else, you know, do with it what you will
sort of.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, I think that's one of the pros of having
the struggle to finally have the courage to say exactly
what it is you want to do, is that you've
figured out exactly what it is you want to do
and you love it so much that you're going to
face a fear and so you know, like what you're
due north is and yeah, yeah, I would imagine it
(31:09):
gets difficult to to like not look under the rug.
But yeah, because Jacob, the amount of people who have
been like, I didn't know this was him, oh wow. Yeah,
because he's suddenly like grown up, but he like also incredible.
But yeah, I'm sure he also doesn't look like you know,
(31:35):
I want to concern himself with the comments section.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah he's said. I mean, those guys are just there.
They are real artists, and yeah, you know they're they're
incredibly busy too, you know. I think that's the other
thing about them is they're just they're on to the
next thing. Yes, the next thing is always really exciting.
You know, this is their little movie. They're glad to
be part of it.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Oh stop, No, it's bigger than that. I'm trying to think.
I'm trying to think if Jacob was on. I'm just
gonna look.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Was he on?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I had? Do you know what? Yes, he was. Do
you know Billy on the Street with Billy Eichner.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I'm not good with these things, but.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Billy Eichner a as a comedian and he had this
show that started off very like.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
I think it was. It might have predated YouTube, but.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
It's like him in a microphone and he runs around
New York and basically yells with people.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
But it got really big.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And Jacob was on when he was little, and it's
very funny.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
You should look it up.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's Billy on the Street and he's basically just Billy
and Jacob are running around and Billy's like yelling at
people that Jacob's more talented as.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Like a small child.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
It's very and then and then I was the same
way because I knew him as this like little kid.
And yeah, it's it's a little jarring in a good way. Yeah,
when you don't recognize somebody.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, I mean he's he really got to he's he's
such a phenomenal actor and his his sort of his
emotional depth and maturity is so impressive for anybody's age,
but especially for someone his age, and it was just
(33:30):
exciting to see, you know, this was this was kind
of a coming of age story in a way our film,
and it was really exciting to just kind of get
to introduce him to people as an adult in this movie.
I mean, he's he's in a lot of a lot
of other things right now too, but it's just sort
of an I guess what I'm saying is it's a
cool time to have kind of caught him in his
(33:51):
career sort of a snapshot, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Definitely, we have a couple of questions we ask every episode.
One of them is kind of the basis for the
whole show, which is this idea of making it and
how that means something different to everybody else. So if
you had to define what making it means, and this
(34:15):
can be in career or life in general.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Oh wow, that's cool. I mean, I think just sort
of generally speaking, it's like, I think, getting to do
what you love and find a way to make that
sustainable and have a great family and home life. Also,
I think I don't think making it is like just
making it in your career. I think that that work
(34:42):
life balance is super important because there are so many
things in this career that are out of your control too.
You don't want that to be Like my wife always
says that to me. She's like, this is exciting, but
like you need to make it like this much of
the pie because yeah, you know, because like it's it
doesn't as much as it kind of defines you, like
(35:03):
you know, you can't let it define you. You have
to like, you know. I think the coolest part for
me about this experience was even like all my friends
came out, you know for the movie, and like, you know,
thirty of my friends were there, and they would have
been there whether I was like the movie was good
or bad or not even a movie, Like they would
have just showed up, you know, And I think that's
(35:24):
kind of winning in a way. And yeah, for me, though,
I mean career wise, getting to make my first film
is certainly a step in that direction. Making it for me,
I think in my career means getting to do this
in a sustainable way, hopefully getting to do the next
film and just create things that I that I believe
(35:46):
in and think are meaningful. And try to like leave
behind a body of work that that is like representative
of like my taste and hopefully put something positive, positive
into the world.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
Great answer. The last three people have mentioned work life balance, yeah,
part of their Yeah, which is.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Which has been nice because I think if it ends
up defining you, you're kind of screwed or you're just
gonna be miserable.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Yeah, I mean without like, I know somebody I grew
up around someone in a related field in the music
business that was very very very successful in that one area,
but had none of the family life at all. Yeah,
And I see that person now in their seventies, and
(36:45):
it's really not a nice picture. It's like all these
trophies and and it's kind of like who cares, really,
who cares? And so I do think keeping like a
view of that is is really important.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
So I'll ask this selfishly for myself.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
When you are still trying to have it be any
part of your living, how do you have work life
balance when there's that voice that's like, oh I could work,
someone else's working for another hour, someone's doing this for more,
Like when you're still kind of trying to call.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Your way in I think that I think that again,
like it's hard. Maybe in the arts. Again, I would say,
maybe this is different from another field. But if you
say like writing and directing, I don't think you have
anything of value to say unless you have another life.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
I don't think as an actor, probably you have much
to say or connect. You know, that stuff can't happen
in a classroom like you know, like even Nick Offerman
we talked about, you know, his sort of path on
set sometimes and he was a a set carpenter and
he worked on a you know, Berner Herzog like another
(38:04):
you know, his advice would always be, like go be
a bouncer in a weird club, or like go work
on a boat. You do need to have these enriching
other experiences, and because I think it just enriches your
artistic life and what you have to say, and it
helps you find your voice. I don't know if that's
a satisfying answer or not.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I'm not sure that's great. It's very true. I I
when I was in La I was like working three
jobs most of the time, and a lot of them
were well it was there was retail, I worked in
a hotel, I was in Nay and so yeah, I definitely,
especially in a major city, it's like, yeah, all you
(38:46):
see all day our characters. But yeah, I think I
think that's great advice too, because it gives permission to
go outside.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
Yeah. Yeah, you can't be so like locked in and
yeah and stressed about it because it's just gonna That's
one of the hard things also, is like I think
for certain types of personalities that are like I'm going
to be a success. You know, if you look at
who's rewarded in this business, sometimes it's not always. Sometimes
(39:18):
it's the people that can just relax and let life
come to them in these weird ways that end up
getting these crazy breaks and stuff. And it's very difficult
to plan like a linear path in that way, and
I think the uncertainty of that is really just a
part of what this is.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
You know.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, so I think I don't know. I guess the
only advice I would give is like going back to
sort of trying to take as much control as you
can to just like go do your thing. You know,
if you're like an actor, I would say, write your
own material, Like write your own material and write your
own stuff and just go make it. Because if you
look at all the great actors that have like kind
of broken out that way. That feels like a bit
(39:59):
more and kind of something you can actually like take
charge of.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, and so keeping that in mind, I'll segue into
the last question. If you had to put kind of
a chapter title on your career journey so far, it
can be a single word or we've had very long
run on sentences that involve like parentheses, and what would
(40:24):
that be something to put a stamp on your career
up to this this point.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
If it was a.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Chapter in a book, boy, that's a good question. I
think it would be like finding my Voice maybe, which
sounds maybe kind of like a lame title chapter.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Everyone else the word everyone uses the word corny after
they say they're like, that's that's great, but no, it's
it's not it's great.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Yeah, I think finding my voice, I think I think
just again, I had a weird moment a couple of
years ago. This was actually like twenty eighteen. I'd been
doing kind of what I described like, I'd been working
as an auditor and this and that, and I had
a you know, sold some scripts, and I was with
a friend of mine who I hadn't seen in a
(41:13):
long time who was also in the business, and we
went and got a drink and he just is like
the nicest guy in the world and like turned to me,
like really innocently and was like he was like, so,
like what do you like? What are you trying to do?
And I was like so upset by that question. Like
his question was like are you trying to be like
(41:35):
a director? Are you trying to be like a writer?
Like what do you like? What are you trying to do? Yeah,
And he just asked me it was such a simple question.
And I went home and I was really upset and
I was like, ugh, I just feel so called out.
And it was really like another moment of like what
am I doing? Like you know, why am I being
(41:55):
such a chicken about this? Like just it's really hard
I even, you know, I would hate even going to
things sometimes where somebody would just ask a really simple
question like so what do you do? I felt like
the answer I gave them was like so long. It
was like, well, I'm an editor and I'm also writing
this and blah blah blah, and it was like I
wish I would have just had the courage to say,
like I'm a filmmaker and let them deal with how
(42:18):
that felt, you know, and you know, even though it
sounds kind of ridiculous, it is what you're trying to
do and you just have to sort of be I
think bold enough to try to go for it, you know,
better or worse.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
We had an actor early on in the show we
interviewed and his definition of making it was being able
to walk into a room or like some sort of
social gathering and say what he did and not.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Not blush about it or care about it.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, because everyone would say to him, well have I
seen you anything? Or what was the last thing you did?
Or what It's like, what what can I reference? And
he would get he would be like not want to
answer that question, and he's like getting to a point
of being like, yeah, it was this, that's it.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Well, because what you're saying really is like, I'm trying
to do something that the odds are going to be tough,
and everybody knows, you know, but I'm going to take
a shot at it. And and you know, if you
had said, you know, go into a party and say
like like, oh, well I'm a mathematician, you know, nobody's
going to be like, well, what problems have you ever solved?
(43:31):
You know, or you know, I'm a computer science I'm
an engineer. You know, nobody's gonna But when you say
certain things like I'm a novelist or I'm a whatever,
like people, their radar goes up, and for good reason, Yeah,
I get it, And so it can feel it can
feel really, you know, kind of revealing and sort of
embarrassing to just even say that you want to do
(43:53):
something like that.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I feel like it's the embellishing the resume, uh situation
where it's like, oh, I worked on this show and
people are like, what'd you do?
Speaker 1 (44:03):
And I'm like, I don't want to say I got
everyone's lunch.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I assisted Matt Damon in staying yeah, no, but that's yeah,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
It's it's and it's really difficult.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
But also when you feel I feel like, when you
feel called out and angry and embarrassed, that's like a
good indicator that you need to like get more confidence
in what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yeah yeah, or like there's just yeah, you're being like
to not honest with yourself, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I am obsessed with severance and I've been slowly collecting
the cast members by interviewing them on but I saw
I have an interviewed Trammelle Tullman, but I saw an
interview where he was like, I reached the point in
my life where I realized if I didn't do exactly
what I wanted to do in the arts, like I
was making everyone around me miserable too. And I was like,
(44:59):
if I wanted everyone to have like essentially I'm paraphrasing horribly,
but like the experience even with me and their lives,
like it was going to involve me actually going after what.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
I Yeah, I wanted, Yeah, totally, I feel that way. Like,
you know, I have a family, I have I have kids,
you know, and there was a lot of I think
part of that for me was just you know, really
wanting to make sure that I was provided for them
and and you know, so there was sort of a
guilt around like well what I really want to do
(45:31):
is this, you know, And it's still always a negotiation
and you have to do what you have to do
for your family. But I think, yeah, I agree with
all that.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
How to Make It is reported from a closet in
New Jersey and a basement in Leeds, United Kingdom. It's
produced by Emily Capello and Haley Miura Le Darren.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
For full length videos of.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Our episodes, subscribe to our YouTube channel, how to Make
It Podcast for more adventures with Emily and Haley.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Follow us on.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Instagram at how to Make It Podcast, where you'll find
clips from today's episode, mini episode clips, and more random nonsense.
Like and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
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