September 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Writer, director, actor, and Grammy Award-winning musician Nora Kirkpatrick joins Emily to discuss her directorial debut 'A Tree Fell in the Woods.' We get into Nora's unconventional route to directing, why she initially wanted to be a paleontologist, and Nora reveals what it was like working with an all star cast including Josh Gadd, Alexandra Deddario, Daveed Diggs, and Ashley Park. Emily is so engrossed in the coversation that she completely forgets to ask Nora about her stint on one of Emily's favorite shows, 'The Office.'
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry. Join us
and our celebrity co authors as they help us write
the book on how to make it and, more importantly,
uncover what making it even means. May that may just
(00:24):
sound so much more serious than we actually are. Should
we switch roles on this one this time?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Okay? See that's the intro. Hi. My name is Nora Kirkpatrick.
And I wanted to be a paleontologist. Really, I feel
(00:54):
like like so many kids.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Really, this is the first time I've gotten that in Oh.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Really, my son is five and he also wants to
be a paleontologist.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Well that's great. What made you want to do that
when you were little? Was it like a career day
thing or like, no, it was.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I grew up in Iowa and we was like a
lot of outside playing and we were finding bones and
rocks that I thought all of them were precious fossils,
and so I think it. I was just like, mom,
how do I make this my job? And She's like, oh,
you'd be a paleontologist. I was like, okay, great, okay,
so very practical. Yeah, that's great. So at what point
(01:38):
did you decide that palontology was no longer for you?
I just think I didn't even know what to do
with that idea. When I got older and I became
less interested in rocks. Now I'm interested again. But I
think I started doing theater and I was like, this
is maybe more fun.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, I mean I would think so more lively.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
More lively, I like to work with other people, and
maybe paleontology seems like a more solo expedition. Very true.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
When you were in school, did you have one area
of film that you wanted to do because you've done
so many different areas, or did you just know you
wanted to work in film in general?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I didn't when I was like in high school,
I didn't. That wasn't even like an option that I
thought about because I was in Iowa for most of
high school and then I switched at the end. But
I didn't know anyone in Iowa who was like making
it in film and TV. So I don't know what
I thought I would do. I was interested in theater.
(02:42):
I don't know what I thought I would do. Like,
maybe be a lawyer. I'm not sure. I moved to
California in the middle of high school and then I
was really into theater and I was like, oh, well,
as I like best. And then my parents were like,
you can do it. You just need to go to college,
and I was like okay. So then I went to
theater school at UCLA and then and then I was like, well,
(03:02):
I don't know, I'll try, you know, because that's what
I wanted to do. I just didn't necessarily know that
it would work out, but I was like, I'm going
to just try to do what I love until I'm
no longer able to do that.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Well. The wild thing is is you've excelled. And I
feel like every like you when you went out of school,
you joined a band, you want a Grammy, and then
you start doing acting and you do really well in acting,
and then you direct and you do really well at that.
So do you have a favorite or you just enjoying
(03:36):
wherever it takes you?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Man, I love them all. I mean they're all kind
of the same thing to me, I guess at the
end of the day, like they all require different specific
education pockets, but they're all the same idea, Like I
feel like it's the same cake and you're just taking
out different pieces. So I mean, music is a little
(03:58):
bit different. And now I get to work with the
people from my band to do music for the TV
shows and movies that I'm doing, so then now it's
all connected any who anyway, But I don't know. I
mean people ask me that all the time and I'm like,
I don't They're just all so different. I mean, like
when I'm writing, I'm literally in this box by myself
(04:21):
nine hours a day. And then when I'm directing, it
could not be more social. You know, someone is saying
my name every thirty seconds for sure, and so it's
such a different mindset. And then the acting at this
point because I you know, I'm not doing that as
much as I used to because I'm very focused on
writing and directing. But now when I get to go
(04:42):
do it, it's so fun because I just show up
and I get to play and I don't have the
weight of like I'm in control of the set on
me and so I which I also love. But it's
a different feeling now when I go into act, because
I'm what a joy, this is such a beautiful day
(05:05):
I really have so much fun doing it now, not
that I ever didn't, but it's a it's a different thing.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I feel like like multi hyphenates when like right now,
when I say, oh, like I write and I act,
but I have no like credits, people are like, oh,
that's nice. But then when you're successful at it, it's
like the best because you can switch, like wear all
those different hats and have all those different experiences for.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, and also don't worry, it's like you'll get them.
It takes a long time. It takes a long time
it And I would say I almost know very few
artists at this point who only do one thing. Yeah,
just because especially if you love to work, and I
really love to work, you kind of have to have
(05:49):
so many things or else you will have these big
gaps and so like that's one thing that's so beautiful
about writing is like when I have a gap from
something else, I can always be writing and no one
can stop me. You can't stop me. It's like directing.
I mean you can also be doing that, but that
does require more of a budget if you really want
to do it at a different level, So that requires
(06:11):
some other people believing in you. But you can always write,
and that has been such a savior for me in
terms of scheduling time. And so I think everybody I
know is doing more than one thing, and it's I
think it also just nice to switch it up.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, that's the dream, that's for Yeah, my dream.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So don't worry, don't worry, got it. It really does
take a long time.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I noticed through the festival how many people, as I
was talking to them, were like, oh, well, I wrote
this with my childhood friend in mind, or oh, I'm
I made this with my producer friends from college. And
and I've noticed how many people like brought in people
or were working with friends or people that they have
known for a long time. Do you find that to
(06:58):
be the case more on an indie in the indie world,
or do you think that that's like all around film industry.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, I think it's one of the loveliest things to
do when you're able to do it. And you know,
I still some of my closest friends are my friends
from college and we often work together. And then people
I've worked with, you know, ten years ago, many of
them are department heads on the movie I just made,
(07:28):
So I had worked with almost every department head songs
won before or several times before. It's great and then
it's nice because you are working with your friends and
you have a shorthand and everybody's really comfortable. And it's
also then you can have fun at night, like you know,
after the day. So yeah, I think that happens a
(07:49):
lot on an indie. I think it probably happens at
all levels. I mean, there does come a thing at
maybe higher huge budget movies where a lot of people
weigh in on who gets higher in different leadership roles.
So maybe there's more of a bar to climb there,
But you know, probably your friends are just as talented
(08:10):
as anybody, so you can get them through if it
works out. I mean that's my one of my favorite
things to work with friends on things.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, I would imagine so because you're spending i mean
those twelve to fourteen hour days and it's like, who
do I want to be stuck in this with?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, and if you really respect them, and it happens
to be that so many of my friends are just
insanely talented, So it's also just like just a real
joy and they're so good. I mean, like the ad
the production designer the customer, the composer, the DP, all
(08:48):
of them I've worked with before, and our friends without
so nice.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Speaking of of your film A Tree Fell in the Woods,
I'm wondering, what was the moment that you you have
this idea, but then you just decide that it's gonna
be written, like well of a million I fun ideas.
But then it's like, no, this is happening, and I've
signed up and I don't know if it's gonna happen
(09:22):
or not, But like, what was that moment that you
were like, we're stuck in this vehicle.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
It's so that's such a great question. I think about
this all the time because writing is so much about
like forcing yourself to do things and and it's so
much about your ability to time manage and also suspend
disbelief in a way where the future doesn't matter. And
(09:49):
those two things are like very intense mental gymnastics, especially
if you're writing something on spec, because I mean, if
you're getting paid to write something, I think that alleviates
that because and you're like, well, I got to turn
this in. They're paying my bills, but you know I
wrote this on spec, which I always think about this
scene from Indiana Jones. I can't remember which one, but
(10:10):
he's like walking out in this Crevis and there's no
bridge there. I don't know if have you seen the
Indiana Jones movie. So there's no bridge over this crevis.
But he picks up some sand and he throws it
and it reveals the outline of like a bridge, and
then he takes the leap of faith. And I think
(10:30):
about that a lot because I feel like that's what
writing a script on SPEC is, because you are about
to put in you know, I don't know, six months
maybe more to doing something for free, which means you
have to be working elsewhere to pay the bills, not
knowing if this time will be spent in vain. And
(10:53):
that's an intense mental thing to work out. And I
you know, I had a little help on this one
because I wrote it and COVID, so I had a
little bit of a like, well, what else are you
going to do? Section of time? As we all did,
and that helped. And you know, I've written other things
on SPEC and continue to do so, but it is
(11:15):
if I'm going to write it on SPEC, I have
to really love it because it takes away from your
other life and and and you know, need to work
to pay bills, so it's like you have to schedule
it around paying jobs. So you have to just really
love it. And I really believe in it, and I
kind of what I The way I convinced myself on
(11:36):
this one is I was like, if even if I
never get to make it, I'm going to write a
really fantastic script. And I knew that he even just
having a really fantastic script would help me get staffed
in writers' rooms, you know, get rewrite jobs, get hired
to do something for some I just knew if I
had a great script that that would be helpful. So
(11:57):
I was like, no matter what happens, this will be
meaningful moving forward. And then I happened to be lucky
enough to get to make it. But the script itself,
I think has been helpful.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
And did you have these incredible actors in mind when
you were writing it or did that come later?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
They were certainly like I had been wanting to work
with these people for a long time. I wrote with
kind of characters I had created in my mind because
it was easier for me to like to hear their
voices because I'd been working on it you know, for
a minute, and then these were people at the top
of my list to play them, and so the fact
(12:37):
that I got that they wanted to play them was
so exciting, and then hearing them do it was incredible.
And then, you know, I shifted some of it a
little bit once we cast, just to play to their voices,
but I didn't change that much because they just could
do anything. So yeah, I'm like still in awe of
(12:59):
it when I get to watch them do it, because
I'm like, oh, you totally just totally got the vibe,
which was like dramatic but funny and like even in
the saddest moments funny to me. So I really liked
seeing it with an audience because they were laughing at
all the saddest moments when I had put in jokes
that I thought were funny. So it was nice to
(13:22):
hear that other people felt okay with that as well.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, after I spoke with you, I spoke with Josh
and I told him that you said a highlight was
his dancing, and he was like, well, we're about to
find out if that's true, because we're going to see
the audience reaction.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I think they loved it. I mean, Josh is such
an incredible talent. I mean, holy moly, they all are,
but he was able to make this character so heartbreaking
and funny and just so great. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
So when you were writing this movie, not knowing if
it was going to happen, what was like the oh
we've arrived a moment where you were like, this was
not in vain, this was worth it?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
No, man, I mean well, I think when the producers
signed on, yeah, realizing how many holes I have in
my shirt and I'm so sorry for everyone.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
No, listen, it could be. That could be. That's very
fashionable to have, Like, right.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
It's not that I've had this year for twenty years.
I didn't get this in college or anything. You paid
four hundred dollars for that teacher. There we go, There
we go. When the producers signed on, I felt optimistic
because they are incredible. They made Blue Valentine and A
Star Is Born and so many movies that are awesome
(14:45):
and big and cool, and so I was like, well,
if they believe in this, they must think we can
get it done. And you know, we had a lot
of false starts after that and speed bumps and financing
and schedule like there were a lot of moments where
I thought wasn't going to happen, Like at one point,
we actually put it down for three months because our
(15:05):
shoot dates didn't work out. And then everyone's like, we're
just putting it down, we'll come back to it later,
and I was like, we'll go back to it later.
But they were right. We just needed to do that
to reset and kind of start over on some you know,
financing areas and get it figured out. But that was
a stressful time. But I felt like and they were
(15:27):
have been incredible the whole way through and just really
believed in me. So I was like, all right, they
know what they're doing. We're going to figure it out.
Might take a year and a half or we're going
to figure it out. Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
That must be so scary when they say like three
months and you don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Oh yeah, I was. It's just hard because then you're
just thinking about it every day and you're like, well,
has it been three months? Like what?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I don't Oh my god, Wow it was.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
It was really stressful. But I feel like now that
I've gone through it this one time of doing it
on an indie movie like this, I feel like a
I'll just be much more knowledgeable next time, and b
I don't think I'll have to do it again quite
In this way, I'm grateful for the whole experience. And
it was and it was I think in the scheme
of things, really not too bad in terms of the
(16:16):
length of time it took us to make it. So
I I'm in hindsight, I'm like, that was not bad.
That was fine, But there were moments in the moment
where I was like, diverse, yeah, yeah, So much of
this career is patience and like real patience and like
and I think you have so you know, you have
(16:39):
so many projects going at one time to distract yourself
and so that you can move over while one is
is figuring itself out. So I think that's the benefit
of like, you know, I'm working on, like, I don't know,
six different things right now and they're all in different stages.
And I think you just do that because you never
know when things are going to go. I mean, I
(16:59):
just had something that was going to go in a
couple months and now it's moved to I don't know,
I don't know when, and it's like that. But I'm
now I'm like, this is all just normal. This is
just like part of it. And so then you're like, cool,
gonna take this time and move over to this other
one and do this. And I'm getting much better at
that rhythm of things. When I started, that would be very,
(17:22):
very jarring. And now I'm like, this is just part
of the process. This, things move, schedules change, and so
it's also I'm learning.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I'm learning it's a helpful skill to have. I feel
like even this, this uh festival is like if if this,
if we get to talk to someone, we get to
talk to someone, if we if I came into New
York from Jersey and nothing happens, like I just have
to be like I rode the ferry and it was nice,
and yeah it is. It is what it is, but
(17:53):
it is. But yeah, yeah, I'm not quite as as
zen about it as I'd.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Like to be at this point. Well neither am I,
but you know I'm working towards that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Okay, So you metaphorically throw the Indiana Jones sand and
you're like, I'm gonna do this, and like, say you
get not that this is what happened to the movie,
but say you get halfway across, how do you like
keep telling yourself, don't look down, or like whatever a
turn of phrase would mean, like keep going to the
(18:23):
other side. How do you stay motivated once you've made
that choice.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, you know, the getting it up and running part
is was really, you know, difficult and frustrating and required
a lot of patients. Once we were on set, I
was to me, I'm like, nothing can go wrong. Nothing
can go wrong, even if it does, because I'm very
comfortable in that position, and I'm surrounded by people who
(18:51):
were really professional and know what they're doing, and we
had done a lot of prep work. So at that point,
I'm like, if we get on set and we have
the green light and someone says we can call action,
I know we're gonna be okay because I've had enough
experience to know that even if you go over one day,
which which we really didn't because we really couldn't, but
(19:12):
even if you do, you can make it up in
another day and move things around. And that's a whole
malleable beast. So I wasn't worried once we got on set.
It was just getting us to the green light and
getting us there.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I actually feel like for a lot of people, at
least so I've spoke to, it's the opposite where they're
like super confident and then they get in on set
and then they're like, oh my god, is everything I've
written terrible? So I think I think being confident, right
I said, is the better. It is the better one
versus like feeling great until you walk out the door
and then.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well, for sure, I mean that could also happen. I
think maybe just because I wrote this one and was like,
so intimately, I don't know, I felt like I felt
like we were going to be okay. I felt like
it would work. I felt like we could figure out
a way to it could work if we could just
get onto that. That was my feeling. Now that's just
(20:06):
this movie. There very well might be another one where
I get on set and I'm like, I don't know
what I was thinking. You know, that could surely happen.
So who knows.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Have you always felt super confident in that position on
set or did that take time to build?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
For sure, took time, And of course I'm still you know,
I would call myself in the infancy of my directing career,
but I have been doing it pretty full time for
almost eight years now. Just the directing part, and you know,
my first couple things, I for sure felt like somebody
(20:43):
is going to drag me out of here because I
didn't go to film school, or somebody is going to
tell me I don't know something. But then once I
realized that for me, I think the most important thing
is like your vision of the thing, and if you
have a really clear vision of how it's going to
look and feel, all of the technical aspects that maybe
(21:04):
you don't know yet are easily learned, and you have
a team there to support you. So that is not
You don't have to know every single thing on the camera.
You don't have to know every single lens. It's great
if you do, it's helpful if you do, but when
you're starting, you might not, and that's totally fine. And
I think even for myself, I kind of counted myself
(21:28):
out for directing for a couple of years because I
was like, I didn't go to film school. I don't
know as much as so and so. And then once
I realize, like, cool, does it matter. You have an
idea and a thought for this, you might as well
try and see how it goes. Before I just tell
(21:48):
myself I couldn't do it. Then I really started to
think about the team that supports you. And now I
love having these conversations with my dps to be like, hey,
I'm thinking about this. I wanted to feel like this,
like what if the shock could do this? Can the
camera spin around? I have no idea how that would work,
and they're like, cool, let's talk about it. And then
I learned from them their expertise and then combined, we
(22:12):
can figure it out. Then that kind of took a
lot of the fear of that away, because I'm like, all,
not all. I need to show up with a vision
and then we can figure out the other stuff in
support of that.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
So when did you decide that you were going to
let yourself try to direct? When did you throw out
the I didn't go to film school.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
You know, it's so funny. I like, I never write
in a journal really ever. But I remember doing it
when I was like thirty, and I was leaving my
rock and roll band, and and I had always wanted
to direct, and when I had been acting, I had
been sitting with the directors, even not during my scenes,
(22:56):
watching shadowing, and I just from I remember thinking like, literally,
the only person stopping me from doing this is me,
and like, I don't think that's the way it should be.
I think if somebody else wants to tell me I'm bad,
they can tell me I'm bad and not let me
do it. But I shouldn't be counting myself out. So
I was just like, I don't care. I only care.
(23:19):
I'm just gonna try and I don't care, and if
it doesn't work out, okay, it doesn't work out, I
would like to try. And so I don't know what happened.
It just like changed in my mind. One year and
I had been writing things and having a good response
and get some of them were getting made, but they
were hiring other directors to direct them, and I just
remember thinking like I would really like a shot at this.
(23:40):
So the next thing I sold was a VR movie
to Hulu, like a movie totally made in virtual reality.
And luckily there were not a lot of VR directors
at the time, and so then they were looking for someone.
I was like, listen, I know a lot about this,
and I had a lot of experience in virtual reality.
So they agreed to let me direct, and I was
(24:00):
like okay, And then once I did that the first time,
I was like, oh my God, this is my favorite
thing in the world. I feel like I can do this.
And then from then on I was like, I'm gonna
you know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna cult myself out.
I'm going to really give it a go. And now
has become like the greatest obsession of my life and
the place where my brain feels like calmst and I
(24:23):
love it so much. But I mean when I was
before I made this feature, you know, there was a
year where I made two short films. I was like,
I think I can do this. I need something to
show for myself. So I made two short films. I like,
applied and got grants and really made them for you know,
not a lot of money. But they are two of
(24:45):
the things that I'm most proud of, I would say,
And those pieces have been really helpful in getting jobs
after that because they're a very clear representation of a
thought and an aesthetic and feeling. One of them was
really a tonal reference for the movie I just made,
so I would show them, would show the cast. I
(25:05):
showed the producers this short and I said, it's going
to feel like this. So I do find that that's
a very helpful thing to do, although they are no
small feats about it are hard to make the purpose
of why I wanted to make this podcast was because
I all I was seeing online were these interviews about
how much fun it was once it happened, and I
(25:26):
was like, where's the stories about the doubt and like
maybe there'd be like a sound bite here and there,
but it was more about like how much fun it
was to be successful and to work with other familiar
successful faces, And I was like, is anyone else feeling
like they want to throw their computer out a window? Like,
oh my gosh, I mean, I think that's a really
(25:49):
great way to think about it, And like I felt
that way for years, and I still feel like I'm
only at the beginning of what it is that I
want to do and at the level I want to
work at. So but let me tell you, I had
like about ten years where I was like, what the
how does anybody? It's very daunting, but making things at
any level is like that I think the best answer
(26:11):
to getting to make more things.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
We have a section called the Story, which is supposed
to highlight a moment or a set of moments in
your career where you had those what the hell am
I doing? Like is it worth it? Moments? And do
you have one that sticks out in your mind, is
like a particularly make or break moment or does it
all kind of lump together.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I mean, I've had a lot of moments where I
was questioning and doubting. I also know that I don't
have any other skills other than like the writing, directing, acting,
music world. Like, I don't know, I don't know what
else I could do. Really, I could figure it out
in another life. I think I would have tried to
(27:03):
be a surgeon or something, but I don't know. Sometimes
you think about You're like, what would I have done? Yeah,
it's like I think I could do like high stake surgery.
Maybe that makes one of us. I don't know, who knows.
Maybe I'm wrong, probably wrong. That seems very difficult. Well,
(27:23):
you don't have to just me. That's a good thing
you're in this life right now. I don't have to decide.
Maybe someday I'll play one on TV. You know. I
had a lot of moments early on where I remember
when I got my first like real acting job, which
was on this show called Greek, and I had done
a few little things before that, but that was like
my first long term reoccurring and yeah, and that was
(27:47):
such an incredible experience and I love the people on
that show. And I remember when I got that, I
was in like I was not doing well in terms
of like my bank account, and I was I was
I was like, what am I gonna do? I don't
know what I'm gonna do because I had all the
jobs and I, you know, it was like right at
(28:08):
the band was kind of happening at the same time,
and I remember when that job happened, I was like,
Holy moly, maybe it's gonna be okay, because I definitely
was not sure of that at all. Yeah. I just
remember like where I was when I got that phone call,
and I was just like, oh really, yeah, because it
(28:28):
was like it was a time where I was like
really on the edge of having no idea what to do,
and I was like I already have two jobs. I
don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah. It's so interesting because a lot of people that
have been on the show. We talked to Kate flannering
and she was like, when I was, you know, my
career was starting to take off, I was in a
worse place, like finance's she had like declared bankruptcy.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Oh my gosh, boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Was like stealing money from Earth, and like multiple people
have said things externally were working themselves out as I
was like at the point of despair.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, that can definitely happen. I mean, for sure,
it's such a mental game to like, oh my god,
I feel like so much of what we do is
like a really intense mental game. It is. But yeah,
I mean I like long for my twenties sometimes and
then now I'm like nah, no, nah, that was stressful
(29:34):
in a certain way.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
No, I never want to I would never want to
go back to my twenties and I yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Would want to pop in for a day. I would
pop in, you know, I'd be like, well if I am.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Knowing that, I know now, I would pop in, but
like not to the brain of yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I wouldn't want to like go all the way back,
but I would do a couple of days every long.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
What would your definition be of what the phrase making
it mean? So this could be in life in career,
but just like you hear making it or I've made it,
what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I mean, I don't know if you can ever make
it because well, I understand the concept.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I mean, for me, same answer we usually get is
like what, well, because there's like to me, I guess
the goal post keeps moving and it's not a financial
goal post, it's not a recognition goal post.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
It's a like creative goal post. Yeah, and that moves
after everything I do, and it just keeps getting Now
I don't watch a lot of sports, so this is wrong.
So why don't we say, like the peg when you're
like rock climbing or something, because like that keeps getting
moved higher and high and then you have to figure
out a way to get there. And I think I
(31:03):
hope that I never feel like I've made it because
I don't want to keep I don't want to not
keep challenging myself and trying to beat my own creative
endeavors from last time, Like can I do something smarter?
Can I do something bigger? Can I attack these different
esthetic goals that I've been dreaving of. Can I direct
(31:25):
in a different style that's so unlike what I've done
before that I really have to study and consider and
think about. So all of those goals keep shifting, and
I'm sure there's going to be some times where it's
very successful, and I'm sure there's going to be some
times where it's really not, and I feel like that's okay.
And for me, the goal of making it is to
(31:46):
like be able to make a living whatever that is
and keep challenging myself creatively as long as I can.
That would be my goal.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Did becoming a parent because you mentioned you have a son, Yeah,
did that change any of that, like in terms of
career versus personal goals, home life things like that.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Sure, for sure, because you know, I want to be
with him as much as I can because he's the greatest.
I think it's I also feel like like my mom
was a great example of like she's a journalist and
she had a great career and was also an awesome
mom and was totally present but had to travel for work,
(32:35):
but like it was all was fine because she was
present and awesome and great. And so I feel like
also being an example of like you can have you
can be an incredible parent and have a great career
so that you're fulfilled in what it is that you
do and also fulfilled as a parent and have a
great family. I feel like there's a world to balance
(32:56):
those two. That's actually better for everyone because then everyone
and it's fulfilled and happy. If that's something you're interested in,
if I'll have a career that they're interested in. So
that is my goal. And also I'm lucky that my
son is wonderful and interested in film. So truthfully, what
I want to be able to do is is, well,
(33:17):
I just want like he I want him to be
on set sometimes, or like if he wants to be
a pa, like be a pa, Like it would be
so fun to have him around, like during summer breaks
if we're shooting something, and that would be a real
dream because how fun is that. It's like I used
to love take your daughter to work day. My dad
worked at this agriculture company and I loved that day
(33:39):
so much. And I was like, if he wants to
ever come, you know, be on set, what a joy
that would be. But it certainly does color what jobs
I pursue depending on where they're shooting. That's something we
talk about a lot, is like where are we shooting?
Because yeah, you know that affects schools, and I'm talking
(34:00):
to I always ask other parents who have kids who
are shooting a lot, I'm like, so tell me everything.
How do you work out, like the schools and the
and so it's this ongoing conversation. I'm on a WhatsApp
group of moms who are also in the industry and
to talk about this stuff because it is a balancing
act and it's nice to have other people to have
(34:20):
the discussion with of how are you doing it? It
can be a hard a delicate balance.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, yeah, but the coolest take your kid to work
day would definitely be on a set for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, I'm so excited. I mean, he's come a couple
of times, but I'd like him to come more.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, my dad was worked on Wall Street, so that
take your kid to work day it was a little intense.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Oh my god, but fun. I just loved being in
an office. Yeah. I was so enthralled by offices. I
was like, whoa, this is amazing.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
The floor of the Stock Exchange, like back in the nineties, that's.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
A cool that's a cool, Dike, you're not a do
org day.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I just remember I had a snack or something and
I was like, where do I throw this away? And
some guy was like, you just throw it on the
floor because everyone's taking notes and throwing them and then
at the end of the day they would clean the garbage.
(35:28):
So the last thing that we asked is if you
had a chapter title that would sum up your career
so far, what would that career chapter title be?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Maybe Tine would be we're floating on a ball in
the middle of space. Just get out there and try.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I don't know, there we go, there we go. It's
a great one. We'll take that with me as I
tried not to panic.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well because it's just like we're floating. I mean, so
why not Yeah, yeah, reirely ants running around the planet
zooming out does help.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I saw this thing that said that some people find
it relaxing to like watch videos of people from like
a hundred years ago.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
It can give you perspective of like, oh, that person
cut me off when I'm driving, and then you're like,
you know what, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I don't. I don't watch these videos for the record.
I'm not. I'm not sitting there going like, oh, these
people are dead. But like someone said, like, oh, if
you look up like videos of people running, I think
the point was that they were like rushing around, like yeah,
they were busy, busy, and then and then it's like
nothing like. Nothing was that urgent? Everything's yeah, I mean
that is the truth. Learned that dinosaurs to bring it
(36:51):
back to palaeontology. How to Make It is reported from
a closet in New Jersey and a basement and leads
you United Kingdom. It's produced by Emily Capello and Haley Muralidarn.
For full length videos of our episodes, subscribe to our
YouTube channel at how to Make It Podcast. For more
(37:13):
adventures with Emily and Haley, follow us on Instagram at
how to Make It Podcast, where you'll find clips from
today's episode, mini episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like
and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
wherever other fine podcasts are found
Hi, I'm Emily and I'm Hailey. After meeting online, we
became international best friends who bonded over how hard it
is to find success in the entertainment industry. Join us
and our celebrity co authors as they help us write
the book on how to make it and, more importantly,
uncover what making it even means. May that may just
(00:24):
sound so much more serious than we actually are. Should
we switch roles on this one this time?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Okay? See that's the intro. Hi. My name is Nora Kirkpatrick.
And I wanted to be a paleontologist. Really, I feel
(00:54):
like like so many kids.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Really, this is the first time I've gotten that in Oh.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Really, my son is five and he also wants to
be a paleontologist.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Well that's great. What made you want to do that
when you were little? Was it like a career day
thing or like, no, it was.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I grew up in Iowa and we was like a
lot of outside playing and we were finding bones and
rocks that I thought all of them were precious fossils,
and so I think it. I was just like, mom,
how do I make this my job? And She's like, oh,
you'd be a paleontologist. I was like, okay, great, okay,
so very practical. Yeah, that's great. So at what point
(01:38):
did you decide that palontology was no longer for you?
I just think I didn't even know what to do
with that idea. When I got older and I became
less interested in rocks. Now I'm interested again. But I
think I started doing theater and I was like, this
is maybe more fun.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, I mean I would think so more lively.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
More lively, I like to work with other people, and
maybe paleontology seems like a more solo expedition. Very true.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
When you were in school, did you have one area
of film that you wanted to do because you've done
so many different areas, or did you just know you
wanted to work in film in general?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I didn't when I was like in high school,
I didn't. That wasn't even like an option that I
thought about because I was in Iowa for most of
high school and then I switched at the end. But
I didn't know anyone in Iowa who was like making
it in film and TV. So I don't know what
I thought I would do. I was interested in theater.
(02:42):
I don't know what I thought I would do. Like,
maybe be a lawyer. I'm not sure. I moved to
California in the middle of high school and then I
was really into theater and I was like, oh, well,
as I like best. And then my parents were like,
you can do it. You just need to go to college,
and I was like okay. So then I went to
theater school at UCLA and then and then I was like, well,
(03:02):
I don't know, I'll try, you know, because that's what
I wanted to do. I just didn't necessarily know that
it would work out, but I was like, I'm going
to just try to do what I love until I'm
no longer able to do that.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Well. The wild thing is is you've excelled. And I
feel like every like you when you went out of school,
you joined a band, you want a Grammy, and then
you start doing acting and you do really well in acting,
and then you direct and you do really well at that.
So do you have a favorite or you just enjoying
(03:36):
wherever it takes you?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Man, I love them all. I mean they're all kind
of the same thing to me, I guess at the
end of the day, like they all require different specific
education pockets, but they're all the same idea, Like I
feel like it's the same cake and you're just taking
out different pieces. So I mean, music is a little
(03:58):
bit different. And now I get to work with the
people from my band to do music for the TV
shows and movies that I'm doing, so then now it's
all connected any who anyway, But I don't know. I
mean people ask me that all the time and I'm like,
I don't They're just all so different. I mean, like
when I'm writing, I'm literally in this box by myself
(04:21):
nine hours a day. And then when I'm directing, it
could not be more social. You know, someone is saying
my name every thirty seconds for sure, and so it's
such a different mindset. And then the acting at this
point because I you know, I'm not doing that as
much as I used to because I'm very focused on
writing and directing. But now when I get to go
(04:42):
do it, it's so fun because I just show up
and I get to play and I don't have the
weight of like I'm in control of the set on
me and so I which I also love. But it's
a different feeling now when I go into act, because
I'm what a joy, this is such a beautiful day
(05:05):
I really have so much fun doing it now, not
that I ever didn't, but it's a it's a different thing.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, I feel like like multi hyphenates when like right now,
when I say, oh, like I write and I act,
but I have no like credits, people are like, oh,
that's nice. But then when you're successful at it, it's
like the best because you can switch, like wear all
those different hats and have all those different experiences for.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, and also don't worry, it's like you'll get them.
It takes a long time. It takes a long time
it And I would say I almost know very few
artists at this point who only do one thing. Yeah,
just because especially if you love to work, and I
really love to work, you kind of have to have
(05:49):
so many things or else you will have these big
gaps and so like that's one thing that's so beautiful
about writing is like when I have a gap from
something else, I can always be writing and no one
can stop me. You can't stop me. It's like directing.
I mean you can also be doing that, but that
does require more of a budget if you really want
to do it at a different level, So that requires
(06:11):
some other people believing in you. But you can always write,
and that has been such a savior for me in
terms of scheduling time. And so I think everybody I
know is doing more than one thing, and it's I
think it also just nice to switch it up.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, that's the dream, that's for Yeah, my dream.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So don't worry, don't worry, got it. It really does
take a long time.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I noticed through the festival how many people, as I
was talking to them, were like, oh, well, I wrote
this with my childhood friend in mind, or oh, I'm
I made this with my producer friends from college. And
and I've noticed how many people like brought in people
or were working with friends or people that they have
known for a long time. Do you find that to
(06:58):
be the case more on an indie in the indie world,
or do you think that that's like all around film industry.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, I think it's one of the loveliest things to
do when you're able to do it. And you know,
I still some of my closest friends are my friends
from college and we often work together. And then people
I've worked with, you know, ten years ago, many of
them are department heads on the movie I just made,
(07:28):
So I had worked with almost every department head songs
won before or several times before. It's great and then
it's nice because you are working with your friends and
you have a shorthand and everybody's really comfortable. And it's
also then you can have fun at night, like you know,
after the day. So yeah, I think that happens a
(07:49):
lot on an indie. I think it probably happens at
all levels. I mean, there does come a thing at
maybe higher huge budget movies where a lot of people
weigh in on who gets higher in different leadership roles.
So maybe there's more of a bar to climb there,
But you know, probably your friends are just as talented
(08:10):
as anybody, so you can get them through if it
works out. I mean that's my one of my favorite
things to work with friends on things.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, I would imagine so because you're spending i mean
those twelve to fourteen hour days and it's like, who
do I want to be stuck in this with?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, and if you really respect them, and it happens
to be that so many of my friends are just
insanely talented, So it's also just like just a real
joy and they're so good. I mean, like the ad
the production designer the customer, the composer, the DP, all
(08:48):
of them I've worked with before, and our friends without
so nice.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Speaking of of your film A Tree Fell in the Woods,
I'm wondering, what was the moment that you you have
this idea, but then you just decide that it's gonna
be written, like well of a million I fun ideas.
But then it's like, no, this is happening, and I've
signed up and I don't know if it's gonna happen
(09:22):
or not, But like, what was that moment that you
were like, we're stuck in this vehicle.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
It's so that's such a great question. I think about
this all the time because writing is so much about
like forcing yourself to do things and and it's so
much about your ability to time manage and also suspend
disbelief in a way where the future doesn't matter. And
(09:49):
those two things are like very intense mental gymnastics, especially
if you're writing something on spec, because I mean, if
you're getting paid to write something, I think that alleviates
that because and you're like, well, I got to turn
this in. They're paying my bills, but you know I
wrote this on spec, which I always think about this
scene from Indiana Jones. I can't remember which one, but
(10:10):
he's like walking out in this Crevis and there's no
bridge there. I don't know if have you seen the
Indiana Jones movie. So there's no bridge over this crevis.
But he picks up some sand and he throws it
and it reveals the outline of like a bridge, and
then he takes the leap of faith. And I think
(10:30):
about that a lot because I feel like that's what
writing a script on SPEC is, because you are about
to put in you know, I don't know, six months
maybe more to doing something for free, which means you
have to be working elsewhere to pay the bills, not
knowing if this time will be spent in vain. And
(10:53):
that's an intense mental thing to work out. And I
you know, I had a little help on this one
because I wrote it and COVID, so I had a
little bit of a like, well, what else are you
going to do? Section of time? As we all did,
and that helped. And you know, I've written other things
on SPEC and continue to do so, but it is
(11:15):
if I'm going to write it on SPEC, I have
to really love it because it takes away from your
other life and and and you know, need to work
to pay bills, so it's like you have to schedule
it around paying jobs. So you have to just really
love it. And I really believe in it, and I
kind of what I The way I convinced myself on
(11:36):
this one is I was like, if even if I
never get to make it, I'm going to write a
really fantastic script. And I knew that he even just
having a really fantastic script would help me get staffed
in writers' rooms, you know, get rewrite jobs, get hired
to do something for some I just knew if I
had a great script that that would be helpful. So
(11:57):
I was like, no matter what happens, this will be
meaningful moving forward. And then I happened to be lucky
enough to get to make it. But the script itself,
I think has been helpful.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
And did you have these incredible actors in mind when
you were writing it or did that come later?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
They were certainly like I had been wanting to work
with these people for a long time. I wrote with
kind of characters I had created in my mind because
it was easier for me to like to hear their
voices because I'd been working on it you know, for
a minute, and then these were people at the top
of my list to play them, and so the fact
(12:37):
that I got that they wanted to play them was
so exciting, and then hearing them do it was incredible.
And then, you know, I shifted some of it a
little bit once we cast, just to play to their voices,
but I didn't change that much because they just could
do anything. So yeah, I'm like still in awe of
(12:59):
it when I get to watch them do it, because
I'm like, oh, you totally just totally got the vibe,
which was like dramatic but funny and like even in
the saddest moments funny to me. So I really liked
seeing it with an audience because they were laughing at
all the saddest moments when I had put in jokes
that I thought were funny. So it was nice to
(13:22):
hear that other people felt okay with that as well.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, after I spoke with you, I spoke with Josh
and I told him that you said a highlight was
his dancing, and he was like, well, we're about to
find out if that's true, because we're going to see
the audience reaction.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I think they loved it. I mean, Josh is such
an incredible talent. I mean, holy moly, they all are,
but he was able to make this character so heartbreaking
and funny and just so great. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
So when you were writing this movie, not knowing if
it was going to happen, what was like the oh
we've arrived a moment where you were like, this was
not in vain, this was worth it?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
No, man, I mean well, I think when the producers
signed on, yeah, realizing how many holes I have in
my shirt and I'm so sorry for everyone.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
No, listen, it could be. That could be. That's very
fashionable to have, Like, right.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
It's not that I've had this year for twenty years.
I didn't get this in college or anything. You paid
four hundred dollars for that teacher. There we go, There
we go. When the producers signed on, I felt optimistic
because they are incredible. They made Blue Valentine and A
Star Is Born and so many movies that are awesome
(14:45):
and big and cool, and so I was like, well,
if they believe in this, they must think we can
get it done. And you know, we had a lot
of false starts after that and speed bumps and financing
and schedule like there were a lot of moments where
I thought wasn't going to happen, Like at one point,
we actually put it down for three months because our
(15:05):
shoot dates didn't work out. And then everyone's like, we're
just putting it down, we'll come back to it later,
and I was like, we'll go back to it later.
But they were right. We just needed to do that
to reset and kind of start over on some you know,
financing areas and get it figured out. But that was
a stressful time. But I felt like and they were
(15:27):
have been incredible the whole way through and just really
believed in me. So I was like, all right, they
know what they're doing. We're going to figure it out.
Might take a year and a half or we're going
to figure it out. Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
That must be so scary when they say like three
months and you don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Oh yeah, I was. It's just hard because then you're
just thinking about it every day and you're like, well,
has it been three months? Like what?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I don't Oh my god, Wow it was.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
It was really stressful. But I feel like now that
I've gone through it this one time of doing it
on an indie movie like this, I feel like a
I'll just be much more knowledgeable next time, and b
I don't think I'll have to do it again quite
In this way, I'm grateful for the whole experience. And
it was and it was I think in the scheme
of things, really not too bad in terms of the
(16:16):
length of time it took us to make it. So
I I'm in hindsight, I'm like, that was not bad.
That was fine, But there were moments in the moment
where I was like, diverse, yeah, yeah, So much of
this career is patience and like real patience and like
and I think you have so you know, you have
(16:39):
so many projects going at one time to distract yourself
and so that you can move over while one is
is figuring itself out. So I think that's the benefit
of like, you know, I'm working on, like, I don't know,
six different things right now and they're all in different stages.
And I think you just do that because you never
know when things are going to go. I mean, I
(16:59):
just had something that was going to go in a
couple months and now it's moved to I don't know,
I don't know when, and it's like that. But I'm
now I'm like, this is all just normal. This is
just like part of it. And so then you're like, cool,
gonna take this time and move over to this other
one and do this. And I'm getting much better at
that rhythm of things. When I started, that would be very,
(17:22):
very jarring. And now I'm like, this is just part
of the process. This, things move, schedules change, and so
it's also I'm learning.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
I'm learning it's a helpful skill to have. I feel
like even this, this uh festival is like if if this,
if we get to talk to someone, we get to
talk to someone, if we if I came into New
York from Jersey and nothing happens, like I just have
to be like I rode the ferry and it was nice,
and yeah it is. It is what it is, but
(17:53):
it is. But yeah, yeah, I'm not quite as as
zen about it as I'd.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Like to be at this point. Well neither am I,
but you know I'm working towards that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Okay, So you metaphorically throw the Indiana Jones sand and
you're like, I'm gonna do this, and like, say you
get not that this is what happened to the movie,
but say you get halfway across, how do you like
keep telling yourself, don't look down, or like whatever a
turn of phrase would mean, like keep going to the
(18:23):
other side. How do you stay motivated once you've made
that choice.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, you know, the getting it up and running part
is was really, you know, difficult and frustrating and required
a lot of patients. Once we were on set, I
was to me, I'm like, nothing can go wrong. Nothing
can go wrong, even if it does, because I'm very
comfortable in that position, and I'm surrounded by people who
(18:51):
were really professional and know what they're doing, and we
had done a lot of prep work. So at that point,
I'm like, if we get on set and we have
the green light and someone says we can call action,
I know we're gonna be okay because I've had enough
experience to know that even if you go over one day,
which which we really didn't because we really couldn't, but
(19:12):
even if you do, you can make it up in
another day and move things around. And that's a whole
malleable beast. So I wasn't worried once we got on set.
It was just getting us to the green light and
getting us there.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I actually feel like for a lot of people, at
least so I've spoke to, it's the opposite where they're
like super confident and then they get in on set
and then they're like, oh my god, is everything I've
written terrible? So I think I think being confident, right
I said, is the better. It is the better one
versus like feeling great until you walk out the door
and then.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well, for sure, I mean that could also happen. I
think maybe just because I wrote this one and was like,
so intimately, I don't know, I felt like I felt
like we were going to be okay. I felt like
it would work. I felt like we could figure out
a way to it could work if we could just
get onto that. That was my feeling. Now that's just
(20:06):
this movie. There very well might be another one where
I get on set and I'm like, I don't know
what I was thinking. You know, that could surely happen.
So who knows.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Have you always felt super confident in that position on
set or did that take time to build?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
For sure, took time, And of course I'm still you know,
I would call myself in the infancy of my directing career,
but I have been doing it pretty full time for
almost eight years now. Just the directing part, and you know,
my first couple things, I for sure felt like somebody
(20:43):
is going to drag me out of here because I
didn't go to film school, or somebody is going to
tell me I don't know something. But then once I
realized that for me, I think the most important thing
is like your vision of the thing, and if you
have a really clear vision of how it's going to
look and feel, all of the technical aspects that maybe
(21:04):
you don't know yet are easily learned, and you have
a team there to support you. So that is not
You don't have to know every single thing on the camera.
You don't have to know every single lens. It's great
if you do, it's helpful if you do, but when
you're starting, you might not, and that's totally fine. And
I think even for myself, I kind of counted myself
(21:28):
out for directing for a couple of years because I
was like, I didn't go to film school. I don't
know as much as so and so. And then once
I realize, like, cool, does it matter. You have an
idea and a thought for this, you might as well
try and see how it goes. Before I just tell
(21:48):
myself I couldn't do it. Then I really started to
think about the team that supports you. And now I
love having these conversations with my dps to be like, hey,
I'm thinking about this. I wanted to feel like this,
like what if the shock could do this? Can the
camera spin around? I have no idea how that would work,
and they're like, cool, let's talk about it. And then
I learned from them their expertise and then combined, we
(22:12):
can figure it out. Then that kind of took a
lot of the fear of that away, because I'm like, all,
not all. I need to show up with a vision
and then we can figure out the other stuff in
support of that.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
So when did you decide that you were going to
let yourself try to direct? When did you throw out
the I didn't go to film school.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
You know, it's so funny. I like, I never write
in a journal really ever. But I remember doing it
when I was like thirty, and I was leaving my
rock and roll band, and and I had always wanted
to direct, and when I had been acting, I had
been sitting with the directors, even not during my scenes,
(22:56):
watching shadowing, and I just from I remember thinking like, literally,
the only person stopping me from doing this is me,
and like, I don't think that's the way it should be.
I think if somebody else wants to tell me I'm bad,
they can tell me I'm bad and not let me
do it. But I shouldn't be counting myself out. So
I was just like, I don't care. I only care.
(23:19):
I'm just gonna try and I don't care, and if
it doesn't work out, okay, it doesn't work out, I
would like to try. And so I don't know what happened.
It just like changed in my mind. One year and
I had been writing things and having a good response
and get some of them were getting made, but they
were hiring other directors to direct them, and I just
remember thinking like I would really like a shot at this.
(23:40):
So the next thing I sold was a VR movie
to Hulu, like a movie totally made in virtual reality.
And luckily there were not a lot of VR directors
at the time, and so then they were looking for someone.
I was like, listen, I know a lot about this,
and I had a lot of experience in virtual reality.
So they agreed to let me direct, and I was
(24:00):
like okay, And then once I did that the first time,
I was like, oh my God, this is my favorite
thing in the world. I feel like I can do this.
And then from then on I was like, I'm gonna
you know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna cult myself out.
I'm going to really give it a go. And now
has become like the greatest obsession of my life and
the place where my brain feels like calmst and I
(24:23):
love it so much. But I mean when I was
before I made this feature, you know, there was a
year where I made two short films. I was like,
I think I can do this. I need something to
show for myself. So I made two short films. I like,
applied and got grants and really made them for you know,
not a lot of money. But they are two of
(24:45):
the things that I'm most proud of, I would say,
And those pieces have been really helpful in getting jobs
after that because they're a very clear representation of a
thought and an aesthetic and feeling. One of them was
really a tonal reference for the movie I just made,
so I would show them, would show the cast. I
(25:05):
showed the producers this short and I said, it's going
to feel like this. So I do find that that's
a very helpful thing to do, although they are no
small feats about it are hard to make the purpose
of why I wanted to make this podcast was because
I all I was seeing online were these interviews about
how much fun it was once it happened, and I
(25:26):
was like, where's the stories about the doubt and like
maybe there'd be like a sound bite here and there,
but it was more about like how much fun it
was to be successful and to work with other familiar
successful faces, And I was like, is anyone else feeling
like they want to throw their computer out a window? Like,
oh my gosh, I mean, I think that's a really
(25:49):
great way to think about it, And like I felt
that way for years, and I still feel like I'm
only at the beginning of what it is that I
want to do and at the level I want to
work at. So but let me tell you, I had
like about ten years where I was like, what the
how does anybody? It's very daunting, but making things at
any level is like that I think the best answer
(26:11):
to getting to make more things.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
We have a section called the Story, which is supposed
to highlight a moment or a set of moments in
your career where you had those what the hell am
I doing? Like is it worth it? Moments? And do
you have one that sticks out in your mind, is
like a particularly make or break moment or does it
all kind of lump together.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I mean, I've had a lot of moments where I
was questioning and doubting. I also know that I don't
have any other skills other than like the writing, directing, acting,
music world. Like, I don't know, I don't know what
else I could do. Really, I could figure it out
in another life. I think I would have tried to
(27:03):
be a surgeon or something, but I don't know. Sometimes
you think about You're like, what would I have done? Yeah,
it's like I think I could do like high stake surgery.
Maybe that makes one of us. I don't know, who knows.
Maybe I'm wrong, probably wrong. That seems very difficult. Well,
(27:23):
you don't have to just me. That's a good thing
you're in this life right now. I don't have to decide.
Maybe someday I'll play one on TV. You know. I
had a lot of moments early on where I remember
when I got my first like real acting job, which
was on this show called Greek, and I had done
a few little things before that, but that was like
my first long term reoccurring and yeah, and that was
(27:47):
such an incredible experience and I love the people on
that show. And I remember when I got that, I
was in like I was not doing well in terms
of like my bank account, and I was I was
I was like, what am I gonna do? I don't
know what I'm gonna do because I had all the
jobs and I, you know, it was like right at
(28:08):
the band was kind of happening at the same time,
and I remember when that job happened, I was like,
Holy moly, maybe it's gonna be okay, because I definitely
was not sure of that at all. Yeah. I just
remember like where I was when I got that phone call,
and I was just like, oh really, yeah, because it
(28:28):
was like it was a time where I was like
really on the edge of having no idea what to do,
and I was like I already have two jobs. I
don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah. It's so interesting because a lot of people that
have been on the show. We talked to Kate flannering
and she was like, when I was, you know, my
career was starting to take off, I was in a
worse place, like finance's she had like declared bankruptcy.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Oh my gosh, boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Was like stealing money from Earth, and like multiple people
have said things externally were working themselves out as I
was like at the point of despair.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, that can definitely happen. I mean, for sure,
it's such a mental game to like, oh my god,
I feel like so much of what we do is
like a really intense mental game. It is. But yeah,
I mean I like long for my twenties sometimes and
then now I'm like nah, no, nah, that was stressful
(29:34):
in a certain way.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
No, I never want to I would never want to
go back to my twenties and I yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Would want to pop in for a day. I would
pop in, you know, I'd be like, well if I am.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Knowing that, I know now, I would pop in, but
like not to the brain of yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I wouldn't want to like go all the way back,
but I would do a couple of days every long.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
What would your definition be of what the phrase making
it mean? So this could be in life in career,
but just like you hear making it or I've made it,
what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I mean, I don't know if you can ever make
it because well, I understand the concept.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
I mean, for me, same answer we usually get is
like what, well, because there's like to me, I guess
the goal post keeps moving and it's not a financial
goal post, it's not a recognition goal post.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
It's a like creative goal post. Yeah, and that moves
after everything I do, and it just keeps getting Now
I don't watch a lot of sports, so this is wrong.
So why don't we say, like the peg when you're
like rock climbing or something, because like that keeps getting
moved higher and high and then you have to figure
out a way to get there. And I think I
(31:03):
hope that I never feel like I've made it because
I don't want to keep I don't want to not
keep challenging myself and trying to beat my own creative
endeavors from last time, Like can I do something smarter?
Can I do something bigger? Can I attack these different
esthetic goals that I've been dreaving of. Can I direct
(31:25):
in a different style that's so unlike what I've done
before that I really have to study and consider and
think about. So all of those goals keep shifting, and
I'm sure there's going to be some times where it's
very successful, and I'm sure there's going to be some
times where it's really not, and I feel like that's okay.
And for me, the goal of making it is to
(31:46):
like be able to make a living whatever that is
and keep challenging myself creatively as long as I can.
That would be my goal.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Did becoming a parent because you mentioned you have a son, Yeah,
did that change any of that, like in terms of
career versus personal goals, home life things like that.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Sure, for sure, because you know, I want to be
with him as much as I can because he's the greatest.
I think it's I also feel like like my mom
was a great example of like she's a journalist and
she had a great career and was also an awesome
mom and was totally present but had to travel for work,
(32:35):
but like it was all was fine because she was
present and awesome and great. And so I feel like
also being an example of like you can have you
can be an incredible parent and have a great career
so that you're fulfilled in what it is that you
do and also fulfilled as a parent and have a
great family. I feel like there's a world to balance
(32:56):
those two. That's actually better for everyone because then everyone
and it's fulfilled and happy. If that's something you're interested in,
if I'll have a career that they're interested in. So
that is my goal. And also I'm lucky that my
son is wonderful and interested in film. So truthfully, what
I want to be able to do is is, well,
(33:17):
I just want like he I want him to be
on set sometimes, or like if he wants to be
a pa, like be a pa, Like it would be
so fun to have him around, like during summer breaks
if we're shooting something, and that would be a real
dream because how fun is that. It's like I used
to love take your daughter to work day. My dad
worked at this agriculture company and I loved that day
(33:39):
so much. And I was like, if he wants to
ever come, you know, be on set, what a joy
that would be. But it certainly does color what jobs
I pursue depending on where they're shooting. That's something we
talk about a lot, is like where are we shooting?
Because yeah, you know that affects schools, and I'm talking
(34:00):
to I always ask other parents who have kids who
are shooting a lot, I'm like, so tell me everything.
How do you work out, like the schools and the
and so it's this ongoing conversation. I'm on a WhatsApp
group of moms who are also in the industry and
to talk about this stuff because it is a balancing
act and it's nice to have other people to have
(34:20):
the discussion with of how are you doing it? It
can be a hard a delicate balance.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, yeah, but the coolest take your kid to work
day would definitely be on a set for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah, I'm so excited. I mean, he's come a couple
of times, but I'd like him to come more.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, my dad was worked on Wall Street, so that
take your kid to work day it was a little intense.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Oh my god, but fun. I just loved being in
an office. Yeah. I was so enthralled by offices. I
was like, whoa, this is amazing.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
The floor of the Stock Exchange, like back in the nineties, that's.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
A cool that's a cool, Dike, you're not a do
org day.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I just remember I had a snack or something and
I was like, where do I throw this away? And
some guy was like, you just throw it on the
floor because everyone's taking notes and throwing them and then
at the end of the day they would clean the garbage.
(35:28):
So the last thing that we asked is if you
had a chapter title that would sum up your career
so far, what would that career chapter title be?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Maybe Tine would be we're floating on a ball in
the middle of space. Just get out there and try.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
I don't know, there we go, there we go. It's
a great one. We'll take that with me as I
tried not to panic.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well because it's just like we're floating. I mean, so
why not Yeah, yeah, reirely ants running around the planet
zooming out does help.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I saw this thing that said that some people find
it relaxing to like watch videos of people from like
a hundred years ago.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
It can give you perspective of like, oh, that person
cut me off when I'm driving, and then you're like,
you know what, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I don't. I don't watch these videos for the record.
I'm not. I'm not sitting there going like, oh, these
people are dead. But like someone said, like, oh, if
you look up like videos of people running, I think
the point was that they were like rushing around, like yeah,
they were busy, busy, and then and then it's like
nothing like. Nothing was that urgent? Everything's yeah, I mean
that is the truth. Learned that dinosaurs to bring it
(36:51):
back to palaeontology. How to Make It is reported from
a closet in New Jersey and a basement and leads
you United Kingdom. It's produced by Emily Capello and Haley Muralidarn.
For full length videos of our episodes, subscribe to our
YouTube channel at how to Make It Podcast. For more
(37:13):
adventures with Emily and Haley, follow us on Instagram at
how to Make It Podcast, where you'll find clips from
today's episode, mini episode clips, and more random nonsense. Like
and subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
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