October 29, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of Indie Filmmaking: Truth and Reality, host Jeff Deverett sits down with industryveteran Jack Sheehan, President of Archstone Distribution, to break down the real-world challenges of getting independent films sold and seen. Jack shares his 15+ years of experience navigating the global distribution landscape — from film festivals to streaming platforms — and offers candid insights on what makes a movie marketable in today’s rapidly shifting industry.
Together, they discuss the changing economics of indie filmmaking, the role of sales agents vs. distributors, and the harsh truth that most indie films never recoup their costs. Jack also dives into the impact of AI in low-budget filmmaking, how filmmakers can find the right partners, and why planning distribution before production is critical. Whether you’re a first-time filmmaker or a seasoned pro, this conversation delivers a grounded look at the business side of the art form — and how to survive it.
Key Takeaway: Passion drives indie filmmaking, but strategy and realistic expectations keep you in the game.
Together, they discuss the changing economics of indie filmmaking, the role of sales agents vs. distributors, and the harsh truth that most indie films never recoup their costs. Jack also dives into the impact of AI in low-budget filmmaking, how filmmakers can find the right partners, and why planning distribution before production is critical. Whether you’re a first-time filmmaker or a seasoned pro, this conversation delivers a grounded look at the business side of the art form — and how to survive it.
Key Takeaway: Passion drives indie filmmaking, but strategy and realistic expectations keep you in the game.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today we're going to delve deeper into my favorite subject,
which is distribution of marketing. You made a great film,
now you've got to get it released and let audiences
around the world see it. So I have a special
guest here today who is an expert in doing just that,
and we've spoken many times over the years. He knows
what he's doing, and I'm going to ask him the
tough questions, so hopefully all of you will learn how
(00:22):
distribution of indie films really works. If you want to
be a successful indie filmmaker, you need to know a
lot about not just the production of movies, but the business.
We are going to tell you the truth and reality
of what really happens in the indie film business. Hi, everybody,
(00:46):
welcome back to Indie Filmmaking Truth and Reality. I'm your host,
Jeff Deverett. Today I have a friend and a colleague
and somebody who has agreed to talk to me many
times before. This is Jack Shian, and he is the
president of art Own Distribution. Being in the business a
long time, knows how indie filmmaking and distribution really works,
(01:06):
and I get to ask him the tough questions. So Jack,
if you want to introduce yourself, tell us to sort
of your background.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure, thanks so much for having me, Jeff, congrats on
the new podcast. Very excited to have this on the
air and able to teach people about filmmaking. You know,
have some war stories and horror stories as well as
success stories, and you know, all the good, bad and
the ugly on this crazy business.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
We all chose.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I'm Jack she and president of Archstone. I've been at
the company for about six years. I've done about a
decade of film industry work before that, so about fifteen
sixteen years total. Started my background as a student at
USC interning for Sony and Universal and a couple other studios,
then going into the agency world, starting in the mail room,
(01:54):
doing the agent trainee program at WME, working for a
few motion picture agents there, and then deciding I wanted
to go more into the actual production and financing and
creation of films more so than representation, so left the agency,
went into a few different film sales and production companies
and still doing that, heading to the can Film Festival
(02:17):
in a couple of weeks, going to AFM and Berlin
and a lot of the other festivals on a yearly
basis and trying to find great films from filmmakers who
need representation and distribution, anything from early stage where there's
some cast or financing, putting together all the way up
through finished films. I need distribution as well as producing.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Our own films.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We were in post production on our latest action movie
that we're going to be premiering in can and distributing
later this year. We're making one or two movies a
year on our own as well, with boots on the
ground production as well as sales and distribution. So wearing
a lot of different hats in the indie film space.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Nice, Okay. I wanted just to bunk one thing before
we get into what I really want to talk about.
You said, worked in mailroom at WMM. One of my
students recently graduated and said, I'm going to try to
get a job in the mail room at w ME.
And I said, is that actually a thing?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Is there?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Like a mailing? Who has a mailroom anymore? Is that
like real?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, it's a great question. Mail is physical, mail is
less and less used in common. They still have mail
rooms as basically a training program or kind of an
entry level job. In my time when I started there
in twenty ten. I don't know if they still do this,
but we literally pushed around a physical mail cart with
(03:34):
different folders for each agent and would drop off.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Real or just to make it look like we could
call it the mail room for real.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
But at that point, I mean, email was still was
already the common practice. So I would say eighty ninety
percent of communication was digital and ten percent was physical.
So now you know, fifteen years later, if they do
any physical mail stuff, they probably do a little bit
more as just kind of a traditional thing, but mostly
munication is digital. So I'd actually love you should interview
(04:04):
a mail room person that currently works at one of
the agencies, because I'd be curious how much it's changed
in that time. I bet, I bet a lot, because
so much is digital now, and so much work is
remote now, and there's so much that can be done
with with AI and online programs that physical mail is
definitely not the way it was. But the heyday of
the agencies back like decades prior to me, it was
(04:25):
driving around you know town, delivering male physically.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's a client.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, and yeah we know where that came from. Yeah
for sure. Yeah, I just don't think it's really it's
now called the Amazon ups Root.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah exactly, but whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Okay, So Jack, you are I'm going to call you
an industry expert in I'm gonna we're focused on independent film.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, and so you're an.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Industry on indie films. That's what you guys focus on
at arch Zone. I mean, obviously, the bigger the better.
You know, it's easier to sell bigger name, higher quality films,
but those are far and few between, so you have
to make a living off of finding good entry retaining
low budget indie films. So when I say low budget
for you, it's probably five million and less for me.
(05:05):
My audience is like a million or less. A lot
of people are making films at one hundred, two hundred
three hundred thousand dollars, which you would probably call micro
budget filmmaking, but people are making at the end of
the day, I think you and I both agree. We've
had this discussion. Who cares how much is spent as
long as the film's entertaining.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, yeah, people lie anyways. Yeah, that's the tough part
is profitable.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Entertaining and profitability usually go hand in hand, not always,
but what.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Depends how much is spent exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You make an unbelievably entertaining film for one hundred grand,
it's going to be a lot easier to get your
money back than if you made it for a million.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Absolutely, yeah, And we make movies in the six figure
range as well. Five million, i would say, is kind
of our average in a good central target. We make
some films bigger, some film smaller. We'd like to be
making them bigger and bigger, but with more financing and
more money on the table, the bigger the risk as well,
and you know, we like to be taking that. But
(06:03):
in the indie space, there's very few companies making movies
in the you know, fifteen to twenty twenty five million
dollar range without serious financier backing anymore. It's mostly the
studios making giant films in the indie companies like ours
making smaller films, and there's a bit of a vacuum
in that middle class size of you know, fifth call
(06:23):
it fifteen to sixty million dollar budget movie, which used
to be very common and is less and less so now.
But we work with you know, even if a film
comes in and it's five figures under a hundred grand
but looks awesome and it was really well made and
is an interesting concept, we may take it on.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Okay, so let's take that off the table right away.
We're talking. I'm talking about films between five hundred thousand
and a million dollars, which I believe as a filmmaker,
you can make a decent film. But there's going to
be no walist talent, not in a film like that.
All right, there might be a B list or something
like that, but chances are you're not going to be
list talent. So let's just debunk that right away. Can
you even sell something that doesn't have an A list
(06:59):
act assuming let's assume it's very entertaining, it's maybe a
genre film or something that has an audience, but no
recognizable talent. Are you out of the game?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Just with that, you can absolutely sell those Name talent
is important. It's probably the biggest factor in selling films
because audiences want to see someone they recognize. Buyers feel
more comfortable if they're betting on that because this actor
has had success in the past and it has some
level of fame, and they know that their audiences will
be more likely to click and download and stream or
(07:31):
buy a box office ticket to go see that actor.
But you can absolutely sell movies without name talent, even
without B level name talent. Let's say it's a bunch
of no names, but it's an action movie, which is
usually the most sellable genre, or a great horror film
or a great thriller, something that's a little more fast paced,
something that can translate easier to foreign audiences and not
(07:54):
require the cultural nuance of maybe a comedy or a
romance or a rama might require a little bit more
of like, you know, tapping into the heartstrings of that
local audience. When it comes to something that's more genre,
like an action or a fantasy or a sci fi
horror thriller, it's a little easier to sell. So if
that's really done well, you don't need cast. Okay, you
(08:15):
can sell those.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And I'm going to say it's hard to do those
well at a very low budget because you need some
explosions and gunshots and all this kind of stuff. But
you want to get that right because if you don't
get it right, you're kind of wasting your time.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, cheaply done action will show. And it's pretty obvious.
That's why you see a lot of horror films being
made in the indie space, you can make a good
horror movie with.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
A low budget because it's.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
All about the scares and about you know, a suspenseful story.
And if you have you know, a good makeup artist
or a little bit of creature effects or just a
well told, you know, suspenseful scary story with decent actors,
you can sell that. But there's a lot of those
being made as well, so picking the special ones is hard.
(08:58):
I mean, it's it's it's a diamond in the.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Just before we get I really want to talk about distribution,
but before we get into that, let's just talk a
little bit about filmmaking. Are you seeing a lot of
the use of AI in these low budget indie films
yet or what do you sing?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
A little bit?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I'm starting to actually get pitched entire AI created movies.
There's a few in the marketplace now, some of which
we've had direct conversations with the filmmakers and others were considering.
I'm taking on that are fully made with AI and
and you know, as you may see on social media
and on YouTube, and a lot of these kind of
(09:35):
trailers that and even some like live commercials like you
saw that Toys r Us commercial. There's the Coca Cola commercials.
A lot that have been made with AI, and the
quality is getting better and better. I don't think it's
gotten to a point yet where you can have believable
human interactions. There's still that uncanny valley. It still feels
like they're video game characters. It doesn't feel super authentic,
and I don't think that's right around the corner though.
(09:59):
I think it will be maybe in the next year
or two. But for VFX on a big action or
a big fantasy or you know, space movie horror, yeah,
if it's a non human creature or it's some kind
of like big set piece, you know, a rocket ship
shooting through space, a big action sequence. AI is pretty
(10:20):
believable with that, and you can do it for pennies
on the dollar compared to what you would normally have
to do on in a live set. So I am
getting pitched projects that look great and look pretty big
and look even theatrical that are made mostly with AI,
and a way to separate those sometimes is bringing in
an actor, whether it's a list or B list or
whatever they can afford. Since there's so much savings with
(10:42):
the below the line production, you will have a little
bit more money, hopefully to be able to pay an
actor to come in and do a little bit of work,
and maybe you have some live action background scenes, you know,
blended into it, or you do a voiceover or have
a narration, or just do kind of like a couple
days of ADR work with an actor to add that
person to the poster and and the the marketing material,
(11:06):
which is its kind of elevated beyond a purely AI
movie that I think is still necessary to separate. But
it's a whole new world. It's it's a wild West,
and I haven't taken one on fully because I don't
I don't know well enough what the response would be.
I think there's a lot of hesitancy to using AI.
There's a lot of backlash and pushback against using it
(11:26):
to write scripts and using it for a lot of
the uh, you know, studio work that people are curly making.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
What about the audience though, do you think that the
audience is going to be recept Like people who watch
movies will be receptive to watching non human characters that
look human and frankly probably can act better, can cry
on a dime, laugh on a dime, do whatever. Yeah,
do you think they're gonna that's gonna be well?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Right?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I think I think animation and characters who are not
human will be the first movies to really work. Well,
we're still you know, waiting to see the first real
theatrical release of a not not a small kind of
twenty screen but a real, you know, one hundred two
thousand plus screen release of a movie that's almost all
(12:09):
made in AI. I think the studios are hesitant to
do that because they want to, you know, be or
at least appear to be supportive of the human labor
that goes into filmmaking. But I think if you take
out that kind of like the human being a human
being interactive scenes and have something that is more of
just like let's call it a kid's animation or you know,
(12:30):
alien or robot characters or monsters or something, I think
that could work, and I think that will look more
realistic without having that kind of Uncanny Valley issue.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I agree. Okay, let's switch over to distribution. So I'm
an indie filmmaker. I've made what I believe to be
a very entertaining film. I've screened it for family and friends.
Of course, they love it because they like me, they're supportive.
I've taken it to some festivals because I wanted to
get some real feedback and you know, maybe one in
a ward or two, gotten some good accolades. Now I
(12:58):
want to go into distribute. I want to get it released.
So it started at the beginning. How does somebody like me?
Not me personally, but how does a filmmaker find the
right distributor.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
There's a lot of different ways, and I think that
speaking from my experience, the world I know is through
the lens of a sales agent, and partnering with a
sales agent can be really useful. Are there ways to
do it without having that, of course, but I think
when you partner up with a sales agent, like what
I do, we have those relationships we know, you know,
(13:33):
the fifty plus distribution studios from the you know, big
big six or seven studios and platforms all the way
down to the aggregators and the small digital distributors. That's
a great place to start is to share it with
some sales agents who know those people and can help
you negotiate deals. And of course they're going to want,
(13:54):
you know, to be paid as well, so there is
you know, adding in that element of you'll have to
kind of weigh your choices. If you're a first time
filmmaker and don't know anybody in the distribution space, I
think it's worth, you know, it's worth paying somebody to
come represent you and giving them a piece of the success.
And you know, we never charge filmmakers out of pocket.
It's always a commission off of the work we do.
(14:15):
I would tell any filmmaker to, you know, be really
hesitant to proceed with anybody who's asking for them to
pay them to represent them. I think it should always
be commission based. So that's one great way to Can you.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Just explain to the listeners the different between a sales
agent and a distributor the way you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It, sure, A distributor is the company that puts the
movie out, that actually handles the theatrical, digital, TV, DVD,
all the actual releasing of the film to the audience
in their territory. Sales agent is the company or person
who helps broker that deal, who helps present the film
(14:52):
to those distributors, helps find the right partner to distribute it,
and some sales agents like us at Archstone, are also distributors.
You both sometimes will release a film in North America
through digital and TV and physical and partner with other
partners of ours to do with a theatrical release. And
other times we'll sell it to another distributor who we
(15:14):
think is a better fit or can do bigger things
for that specific film.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Okay, So now somebody, a filmmaker has to figure out
do they use an agent or a distributor. The agent
would be agent be easier to access than a distributor.
Is that why they would use an agent, Because, like
you said, they're going to pay an extra level of commission.
So I'm just going to use numbers you don't. You
can verify if you want. So let's say agent is
going to take twenty percent and distributor is going to
take thirty percent more or less, and so you're you
(15:41):
have another layer of distribution cost commission. But you think
that's worth it.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And I think it definitely can be worth it. And
the twenty percent that the agent takes is off of
the net. So rather than in your example adding thirty
and twenty to get to fifty, it would actually.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Be I didn't say fifty, I know, yeah, it would
be twenty million bucks comes in and the distribute takes
thirty that's three hundred thousand, then the agent's going to
take twenty percent off the seven hundred thousand, the remaining
seven Yep.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, So it's a little more palatable for a filmmaker
to think of it that way.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Not a lot, a little, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's six percent more palatable. It's twenty percent of thirty percent. Yeah,
six percent.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
More palatable exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
To answer your question on whether it's worth bringing on
sales agent, I think it depends on your level of
your network into the distributors. If you, as a filmmaker
have done like like you've made a lot of films yourself.
If you've been doing this for you know, ten, fifteen,
twenty plus years, and you have a bunch of films made,
and you've worked with a lot of the distributors that
mean something, you probably have a relationship with them already.
(16:42):
Sometimes it makes sense to just go directly to them.
Sales agents like their full time job is to leave
no stone unturned and find out who the distributors are,
the old, the new, who the right people are at
those companies. Because there's a lot of turnover, more now
than ever in the industry, So it's it's a helpful
guide to take you, especially if you are newer to
this and don't have a lot of relationships. You know,
(17:05):
I personally have probably one hundred different distributors and the
contact at those companies that I could go to with
any film, and I'm always finding new ones as well
as new companies start if you just want kind of
a better connector and relationship and more guidance, not just
getting it in the hands of the right people to
review it, but also how it's presented, how we can
(17:25):
help you guide the creation of the poster and trailer
and other marketing material, whether it makes sense to screen
it at a festival, to help you get into other festivals,
to present it properly at a market like can or
Berlin or AFM, and also to negotiate.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
The deal for you. Part of what I do.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Is help you know, filmmakers find or get the best
terms and the best bank for their buck in the
deal with the distributor. If a first time filmmaker is
going straight to the distributor, they're probably not going to
know even what points to negotiate or where.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
The space is.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So I try to I try to actually give my clients,
the filmmakers more money back in their pocket, even including
my commission, because of the deals I'm getting them.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
So that when you do a distribution deal on behalf
of the filmmaker. Are the two parties to the distribution deal,
the distributor and the filmmaker. You're not a party to it.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
We are a party to it, yeah, the sales agent. No.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
But so the filmmaker gives the rights to you, you
give the rights to the distributor. So it comes back
that way. Yeah, okay, so you're going to do a
deal on behalf of the filmmaker, but it's going to
be with you and the distributor. That's right, exactly, on
behalf of them.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Okay, So just getting a little technical legally, But there's
a lot of agents, like you said, you know, you
might know one hundred distributors. There's got to be five
hundred agents out there. How does somebody who's a new beat,
first film, very excited about being a filmmaker in their
film and you know how much time and effort and
passion they put into it, but knows pretty well nothing
about how films get sold. As you know, you see
(18:55):
them all the time. Yeah, how do they one even
find those agents then to choose.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
The right one.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
There may be five hundred Asians. I think there's only
twenty that really matter that.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
You know that you're one of them?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Exactly?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
How would I know that?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I think you can.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You should start by doing the research of using looking
at the trades, variety, Deadline, Reporter, Indie Wires, Screen Daily,
reading every article you can in the last couple of
years about films that have been released and sold, especially
around the times.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Of the markets.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
When you have Berlin in February, can in May, Afm
in November, Toronto in September, and a bunch of others
in between. Those are the big ones that a lot
of press releases will be coming out through those trades
around that time. Check out both current releases and over
the last few years. If there's films that you think
your film is similar to and scope, siye, genre, budget,
(19:51):
maybe even the actors in it, take a look at
what's worked and what hasn't worked, and try to you know,
a lot of times those press releases will have been
put out by the sales agents. You can see their
names mentioned in there. Using sites like IMDb, Sonando's studio system,
the numbers, just doing a ton of research into Okay,
if you start seeing the same sales agent name listed
(20:13):
on a few of these films, you know they're one
to call. So again, I think most of the films
in this kind of size, in this indie world are
usually handled by the same twenty, give or take sales agents.
If you're seeing announcements of movies that are big and
interesting enough to hit the radar of a deadline or
(20:34):
Hollywood reporter variety, et cetera, that means they've been filtered
through like the super micro you know, small movies that
are going to be hard to see the light of day,
that's gotten people's attention, and they're being represented by real
companies that are are worth reaching out to.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Okay, so let's say get a hold of a list
that has these twenty so called real players. Right, Yeah,
there's still twenty of them on there. How do I choose? Like,
you're a nice guy, but so is everybody else? Yeah,
how do I choose? What do I What am I
looking for as a filmmaker.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I'd look at their their past history, look at how
long have they been in the business. Uh, Sometimes the
longer the better because it proves that they know what
they're doing, they have experience, they have the relationships, and
they have you know a lot of a lot of
enough good more good deals than bad deals because they've
somehow stayed in business and building relationships. Further, if they're
a newer company, maybe they have some you know, new financing,
(21:29):
or they have some kind of relationship or something that
that gives them an edge. Maybe they can pay you
to represent your film. A lot of times that happens,
and we do it as well. It's called minimum guarantees,
where you put up money to represent the movie because
you know it's that valuable and you think you're going
to get a profit back in representing it. So if
there's companies that are maybe have come across some money
(21:51):
or just started and they can pay you to represent
the film, great, you know, meet with as many of
those buyers as you can and try to get the
best deal for your your project. Maybe you can even
start paying some of your investors back before you even
take it out to the market. But I would just
have as many interviews as you can reach out to.
You know, the you know six or ten that you
think are the most relative to what you're looking for,
(22:14):
or have represented the same kind of films and hopefully
had success with those. Look at the box office where
the film's released theatrically and did they turn a profit
if they weren't released theatrically? You know, find out whatever
digital VOD numbers you can see if they made sense,
if all the if the movies look like success stories,
both in terms of creative and reviews and Rotten Tomatoes
(22:36):
and things like that, as well as financially. You'll never
know for sure the whole backstory financially, but put the
piece together as much as you can through online sources.
If you see success stories and a lot of them
land with the same company, they's somebody to talk to, Yeah,
and I would interview them all.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Are you looking for the person or the company? Like
the company is just a legal entity. Like if I'm
negotiating with Archstone, am I saying, hey, Jack's going to
take care of me.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It's both.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I've been at three sales companies and my career doing this,
but Archstone's also been around for sixteen years, so there's
I think there's value to both sides. I bring some
experience and relationships that I brought from my prior companies
to Archstone. That is additive to what they had when
they first hired me. But they also have benefits that
(23:24):
I came into, like, you know, a decade of history
and dealing with other distributors and filmmakers that I maybe
didn't know coming into it. And surviving in this business
for fifteen years is you know, nothing to sneeze at.
It's hard to stay alive in this so I think
there's something to respect about a company has been around
as long as that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I often tell filmmakers that when they're down to sort
of the final strokes you've chosen say three or four
top candidates, go on their website, look at their films
and find the credits of two or three films of
films that are similar to yours, and actually contact the
filmmaker and say how'd they do? Like, are they decent people?
Did they were the honest? Did they do the job?
You know, sometimes the film's not good enough, but you
(24:07):
know you can tell from that.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
I think that's great advice.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
One of the films that right now we're busy closing
movies to bring to can and one of the films
that we closed last week did exactly that. We had
a couple of meetings with them went well, but they
were interviewing two or three other sales agents and they
wanted referrals. So they asked me, you know, to connect
them with some filmmakers that we represented recently, and I
did that on three other movies that I rerapped.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And yeah, but remarks thank you for the referral you're
going to give them good with of course, I say,
you go randomly.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Agree with you as well, and then you can.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
See, you know, like that's the sampling of.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Potentially maybe take three from the agent and do three
on your own.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yes, anybody gives a bad referral you don't want to.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Do visits with exactly, Yeah, okay, look for you.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
So what what happens? Tell tell filmmakers, what like a
lot of filmmakers go through this process of trying to
reach out, get an agent, get a distributor, but primarily
an agent, right and come up short. They get ghosted.
They just can't get an agent. Is that a combination
of one the agents don't like the films that they're representing,
(25:12):
or two maybe the filmmaker's delusional they're expecting to be
on Netflix, or that type of thing A lot of
filmmakers tell me I just can't get an agent or
a distributor.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I think it's more of the former. Is the issue
is that the sales agent doesn't see the value in
the film enough to make it worth their time, which
you know, can be a bitter pill to swallow as
a filmmaker because it's your baby and you believe in it.
But if you know, meet with half a dozen sales
agents or maybe directly with distributors and you get passes
(25:44):
across the board, something's not working with the film, something
that they don't feel like they can monetize it, or
they don't believe in the story, or there's other, you know,
whatever reason it is. If it's something where the filmmaker's delusional,
I think that can be an issue. If the filmaker
thinks it's worth, you know, a hundred times of what
the market says it really is. That's kind of the
(26:05):
filmmaker's choices or the sales agent's choice of how patient
can they be with this person, do they want do
they like the film enough that they're willing to take
it out and walk the client through the process of
understanding where the market is and helping bring their expectations
to reality and finding a good home for it, even
if it may not be what the additional grand vision
(26:27):
was of the filmmaker, or is it is life too
short and there's too many other movies to go after,
and it's not worth trying to you know, have that
debate with your client all day long.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, because their expectations are a little at a whack. Okay,
So on that note, I guarantee that ninety five percent
of the filmmakers to walk into your office probably say
something like, Jack, I know everybody tells you this, but
my film is really special, and how are you guys
going to get me onto Netflix or Apple or Hulu?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Like?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And so what do you say to that?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It happens all the time, and I'd have to see
the film first and then make my own judgment on
And sometimes they're right, you know, sometimes a filmmaker is
spot on. And there's been a lot of success stories
in Hollywood of directors, you know, making their first short
film or their first movie and getting winning some dance
and becoming you know, the next you know, Ryan Coogler
or something, but not often. No, that's stories and people
(27:19):
that's right that's very true. So those it's rare for
me to find a filmmaker who thinks their film is
worth less than it is, certainly way more common ninety
nine percent of the time that they think is worth more.
So you know, I'll watch the movie and I'll make
my own judgment. I'll share it with my team. I
have a great team of both foreign sales focused people,
marketing people, domestic distribution people, and sometimes I'll even share
(27:40):
it with other friends outside the company to get a take,
and you know, I'll go back and be honest with
what I think it's worth, and if that's lower than
our expectations, then we have that conversation and we can
see if I'm the right partner, and I might not
be if they if they're getting another sales agent saying
oh yeah, I can do you know ten times what
artstrone can do with this, and they believe them them,
(28:00):
they're a better fit and they should go with them.
But unfortunately, there is a lot of salesmanship in a
dishonest way and telling clients what they want to hear
just to get the deal and then apologizing later or
ghosting later worse. I try to never be that one
I try to be more honest and conservative and realistic
upfront and over deliver and have them happy at the
end of the day, or at least, you know, always
(28:22):
saying that, you know, I was a straight shooter and
they got what they signed up for, instead of promising
the world and delivering a lot less. That's that's never
a place I want to be. You know, if a
filmmaker thinks their film is you know, worth is the
next big franchise and they're not, They're getting passed on
left and right by industry. People have worked in this
space for a long time. It's probably time to look
(28:45):
in the mirror rather than thinking they're the only smart
person in the whole game.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
We're gonna get there. We're gonna look in the mirror
thing in a second. I want to go there, okay,
but just before I do, chances our films are not
getting onto the big sbod, not these low budget indie films.
I mean, just this is the way the business model
works these days. Those streamers are making their own product
at that level. All right, So remember I call this
podcast Indie Filmmaking Truth and Reality. Yeah, because I'm gonna
(29:10):
say something right now that most of my listeners are
going to be super disappointed with But it's not the
first time I've said it. I'm going to say that
most indie filmmakers don't make their money back. That's certainly
not on their first or second films. Maybe once down
the road they realize what to spend and all that,
but they're they're not making their money back because they're
not getting a big SVOD sale anymore. A VOD is very,
(29:32):
very hard. It's like tens of thousands of not hundreds
of thousands of transactions in order to make your money
back there. Transactional is marginal at best. So I'm saying
that most indie films probably won't make their money back.
And the reason that filmmakers do it is because they
want to be that one, that anomaly that basically wins
the lottery. That's the dream, it's the dream scenario.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Am I wrong?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
No, You're not wrong. Most films. Most indie films don't
make their money back. Frankly, most studio films don't i
their money back either. You look at like snow White.
You know, one of the biggest franchises ever just just
bombed and is probably going to take a long time
to make its money back after once it's finally on
Disney Plus and gets a lot of streams.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
But let me let me stop. An indie filmmaker makes
one film, it's make or break. If they don't make
their money back, there's a very good chance they're never
making another film because it's going to be hard for
them to raise financing a studio. They're just playing the odds.
I mean, they're gonna make twenty films that year. Five
will be ten pole releases. One might hit, two might
(30:33):
be marginal.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
One's going to lose money.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
It's a business.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
It's a factor judging their bets across the okay.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
So they can spread it across they can spread the
risk across many films. Not an indie filmmaker, that's right.
They're kind of one and done.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, And having your first indie film not make a return,
not make a good profit, doesn't mean you're out of
the business. I think it depends on who financed it
and what expectations they went in. If they were only
looking for a profit, then they're probably not gonna invest
in your second move. But if they knew that, you know,
this is a fun business. You're creating art, they believed
in the story, they wanted it to be told. There
(31:07):
could be a lot of non financial reasons they got involved,
and they may want to bet on you again, or
they may want you to just keep telling that story.
I know you've made films where it's a biopic and
that person finance it themselves because they've been you know,
they've made money in other businesses. I've worked with the
filmmakers who have done that as well. They financed a
story that they are passionate about because they want to
(31:29):
tell it, and sometimes it works financially, and sometimes it
finds an audience.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
But that person wanted you know, it was more about
getting their story told and seen than it was making
a profit. If you're purely in the for profit business,
you kind of do need to hedge your bets across
even a small slate of four or five films like
a studio does. In a larger sense, that's very hard
to do. It's hard to raise financing for one film,
let alone multiple. So no, you're not wrong, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So why, I mean, I know the setorical question. Why
if it's that tough way do people keep doing it?
Over and over and over again.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
This is kind of love movies.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
People love I love this, this, this this art form.
They love being entertained watching them. Making them is also
fun to dream.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
This is a dreamer's business. It is kind of like
wanting to be a professional.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Athlete, totally.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It's one of the sexiest industries out there, and it's
a product that a lot of almost everyone in the
world enjoys watching. There's very few people who just hate
movies in general. So you're making something for people to
enjoy and to like and to hopefully, you know, appreciate
you for making. And it's a fun process to make it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
But it can be painful when it's the financial Absolutely,
it's a financial disaster.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Not a great bet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
The reason I'm doing this podcast is to give them
a little bit more of an edge to actually change
the odds from say zero point one percent to maybe
five percent.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Just give them some tools and stuff to think about.
That's the whole point, which leads to somebody.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I'd give a little I'd be a little more optimistic
on the percentage. I'd say twenty five percent maybe profit
hole let's say, Yeah, it depends depends on how big
the movie is too. And also how many experienced voices
you listen to. I think if you want to make
your first movie, like, the more people like Jeff, like me,
(33:22):
like who've worked in this world, in this business, that
you can sit down and talk to and pick their
brain and hone your plan before you make the movie,
the better off you're going to be instead of just
shooting blind.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Okay, so that's exactly you segued right into where I
want to go. You said, make your plan before you
make the movie. So to me, what I tell all
my clients and other filmmakers is the plan is not
how you're going to make the movie. The plan is
how you're going to sell the movie. That's the plan
you got to be making before you make the movie,
which is who's the audience is going to go to?
How are you going to market it? Because how many
(33:55):
filmmakers walk into your office and say, hey, hallelujah, not
only do make a great movie, but I tucked away
one hundred thousand dollars for marketing and we have some
firepower here. How are we going to spend it so
we get some attention? Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Sometimes most producers spend everything on the production and put
it all hopefully on screen and not people's pockets right
off the bat, though there's a lot of that happening too.
Keeping an extra budget for marketing is pretty rare, actually,
some some do it, and those who do, I think
are smart. If you're able to have, especially you know,
(34:30):
something as large as a six figure or in a
real you know, big swing, a seven figure marketing budget,
then you're able to figure out a theatrical plan do
you know, traditional print and advertising, but a lot of
digital campaigns. You can really be smart about using social media,
which is a can be a cheap but really effective
(34:52):
way of tapping audiences and getting attention. So having a
marketing budget is great, but few, very few plan that
out ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Okay, if you're let's say your filmmaker go through this
whole distribution thing, you don't come up with the right distributor,
or maybe you do, but you don't have the right
distribution deal, so you're just not comfortable. Maybe they don't
like your film. All right, let's say distributors don't like
your film. So now you're sitting there, you got to
make a decision. You either bang your head against the wall,
stick your hard drive up in your closet and move
(35:20):
on to the next thing in your life. Or you say,
what else is out there? So here's what else is
out there? And you tell me if this is delusional?
All right, now, most filmmakers do not want to do
anything but make the film. But I say to filmmakers,
go find somebody who's good at marketing. If you don't
want to do it, go raise another fifty to one
hundred thousand dollars. You just spent say six or seven
(35:41):
hundred thousand dollars making your film, and you made a
good film, made a good film. Put a marketing plan
together and execute it, and send everybody to either your
own website or a transactional streaming platform where you can monetize.
You're going to get very very few people. But even
if you get ten thousand people and you really target
(36:01):
them with some marketing, which is you know, classic self distribution,
is that delusional? Honestly, No, I.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Think it's actually very forward thinking, and I think that's
the direction a lot of our industry is going to
start going. I was involved in producing a show recently
called Golden Guy that is about a guy who opens
up a restaurant in La It's a Mexican Japanese fusion restaurant.
He's inspired by the Golden Guy neighborhood in Tokyo, which
(36:30):
is why it's called that. And it's a series that's,
you know, an eight to ten episodes series made mostly
for digital for self release on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
So it's a little bit of a.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Skew off of the indie film traditional distribution. But I
think more distribution is heading that direction away from the
walled gardens of s FOD platforms and theatrical and more
into hitting audiences where they spend their time, and YouTube
is a big one YouTube. Eleven percent of all viewing
time is spent on YouTube now the latest report shows,
and Netflix is seven or eight percent, so fifty percent
(37:04):
more viewership time is spent on YouTube and on other
mobile social media apps than Netflix, Disney's even less than that, Amazon, Hulu, etc.
So I think we're going to start seeing more opportunities
for stories to be told on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
But the only problem with YouTube is monetizing, Like you
have to have a robust YouTube channel that you're monetizing
at the relate level, and you have to have a
lot of visitors, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So the way we're we're handling that project, which is
not a feature film, it's a short form, so it's
more appropriate I think for the kind of clickbait, short
attention span add audience of YouTube rather than someone willing
to sit through a full feature film, which is usually
better on a big screen and when you have some patients.
But we're marketing that one in a unique way where
(37:52):
we're reaching out to influencers across social media who are
fans of Japanese or Mexican food, La culture, restaurants, a
lot of the different themes of that show, and looking
organically at kind of a network of those influencers who
have fan bases that are significant, Some are several thousand,
(38:13):
others are up to the you know, millions, and saying, hey,
we're launching this show. We think your audience would love this.
Work with us as a partner, maybe does a little
bit of payment upfront otherwise than maybe just an at
a revshare on the ad side, put it on your
YouTube channel, on your social media channels, and work with
us to promote this show and actually host it. So
(38:36):
I think this is to go to your marketing question.
That's part of our marketing and distribution is hitting the
audience where they are today, which is the social media
AVAD YouTube space, and also marketing through people they already
follow and already trust as a as an influencer, as
a leader who's a taste maker and can say this
(38:58):
is going to be a great show, check this out.
A little trickier on the film side because of just
the format of being long form that doesn't play as
well on a YouTube or on a mobile app, But
I think that's kind of one of the areas where
it's going to. Where the future of indie filmmaking is
going to go, is being able to tell stories, whether
it's a quicker format or maybe a split up episodic format,
(39:20):
tell the same story in a way that hits that
young audience that's on a YouTube for example. Yeah, and
be a little bit more organic with how you market it.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I don't think filmmakers are struggling with the storytelling part.
I think they're still struggling with the monetizing part. Yeah,
always have been. By the way everybody says, oh, the
mark has changed. I mean I started a few years
before you did quite a few and it's always been
a struggle.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I mean the DVD years were good because it was
a physical thing, but you know, nobody talks about the
return rates and all this kind of stuff, So it's
always been a struggle. And I think the major disconnect
with indie filmmakers is there's just so focused on making
the product and they're not focused on selling it at
all and marketing it, whereas in contrast a big studio,
(40:05):
the filmmakers have the luxury of just focusing on making
because that's their job, and there's an entire marketing department.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
It's right.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Indie filmmakers don't have a marketing department.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You have a filmmaker and a marketer at the same time,
which you don't want to be a fundraiser.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
You actually don't want to be, and you're not good
at it. You're only good at filmmaking. Now in your
company in the indie in distribution world, are you guys
taking up marketing? Are you doing marketing for filmmakers or
other companies? I mean, obviously you're going to charge it
back or maybe you will. I don't know how do
you treat marketing.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
We do market as well.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We have a usually a reimbursable amount that we again,
we won't take money out of the pocket of any clients,
but we'll go and sell the film at these markets,
create posters, make trailers, do digital campaigns, do press releases.
There's costs all that, but we'll we'll reimburse ourselves off
of what we sell, so that'll be part of the
(40:57):
deal we close.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
So we do that. We do that.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
I've a great partner at Archstone who handles marketing and
has a team that she oversees. We have a digital
group that whenever we are distributing a film directly in
North America ourselves, there's a whole team that handles that,
and it'll be largely digital marketing because that's where most
of the audience is and mostly the ad spend is
(41:21):
most beneficial these days across especially Google and Facebook and
social media. So we will do marketing, or if we
partner with distributors, will work with them to they'll have
their own marketing department and campaign and plans, and we'll
be aligned with them and try to be supportive and
share marketing materials and go over plans together.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Realistically, how many indie films that are made for less
than a million dollars get a real theatrical release, and
I'm talking not one or two screens. I'm talking you know,
twenty five screens or more. And do any of them
make money.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
If it's twenty five screens or more?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Yes, there are a lot of six figure movies that
do get that. You get into the you know, seven
hundred plus screen count.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
No, forget that millions.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, so let's let's say it's a movie that you know,
it was made for two hundred and fifty thousand and
gets there's some of those that are getting fifty screen releases,
but I'd say that's probably the mast.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
How are they.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Getting people to come out? There's no stars, there's no names.
I mean, what are they doing to do organic marketing
to get people to come to pay fifteen dollars to
watch a movie?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, those movies are usually when they're when they're doing
a small theatrical like that, when it's you know, fifty
or less screens, it's usually to promote the digital release.
It's not to make a profit on the box office,
even if they sold me there are occasions where a
movie will sell out and then they'll do a platform
release and double the screen count the next weekend, and
then it catches fire and becomes you know, this cultural
(42:48):
zeitgeist of a movie and and.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Builds a huge box office like that. A lot of.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Award season movies you see that happening, Like Anora made
you know, ninety percent of its money once it was nominated,
and they did, and Neon did a eighteen million dollar
marketing campaign behind it.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
So that's obviously how many people have eighteen million dollars
through against some marketing.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Very few.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So outside of those, you know, one in a million situations,
it's mostly to put a film out and say, hey,
this this is in theaters now. So when we do
a digital release, it's categorized as having just been a
theatrical movie, it'll get better placement on a lot of
the streaming platforms in demand. That's a strict kind of
(43:32):
split between how they position a film and how they
market it to their audience, whether or not it's been theatrical.
So it's really a marketing positioning thing. It's not so
much about making a profit because most don't make a
profit in the theater. There's a cost to the theaters
they have to spend up front that you have to
then sit behind. So sometimes I'll I'll advise, you know,
a client to go theatrical because I think it's it's
(43:54):
worth it and it's a big enough movie, and other
times i'll you know, advise against it. Ultimately, I want
to empower them. If it's their dream to have a
movie in theaters, I'll support that and put it out there.
But it makes sense a lot of times for a
smaller film to not do any theatrical and just put
it out digitally and not have those tens of thousands
of dollars of theatrical spend to sit behind and recoup first.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah, I agree with some money.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Right off the bat.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
I could talk to you all day long. I have
so many questions on behalf of filmmakers about distribution, but
I'm only gonna ask you one more because I'm cognisant
of the time. A lot of filmmakers say to me,
this whole AVO D thing, how do we know, how
do we like audit or how can we trust that
they do the count right that they attribute. I mean,
there's so many layers that go into how many times
(44:43):
it plays, how many ads play, what amount of time played.
There's not a possibility that you could ever account for
this maybe the big studios can because they might do
an audit here or there, you know, and they have
the resources. But in any filmmaker, you just have to
completely trust every level of you should I mean, do
you've come across that.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Unfortunately, I think it's it's very Not only is it
hard to audit, it's expensive.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
You have to pay for that.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
And if if you find in an audit that a
distributor has been you know, lying to you or fudging
the numbers, then they'll cover the cost of your audit.
But sometimes it's out of your own podcast that's.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
The distributor which you have direct contact with. I'm talking
about the a vo D platform like YouTube for instance.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah, I mean you kind of have to just trust them,
which is unfortunately. The reality is like Google and YouTube
are such monsters in the space now, Like I said,
they're the biggest streaming They're the true winner of the
streaming wars. They weren't really even considered a contestant. It
was Netflix versus Max, versus Disney versus Amazon. But YouTube
is the winner that that's where the audience is going
(45:47):
and you can find a lot of you know, older
films on there for rental, so they're streaming films too.
But to audit YouTube, you really have to just kind
of trust the numbers they give you.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
And they could be total bs.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, it's just they're that powerful and that big, and
unfortunately indie filmmakers have have to rely on on YouTube
avad revenue. Same thing with Amazon Prime and a lot
of these other to all of them, all.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Of them, you have to just hope that everybody's sort
of honest.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
And they're getting I'm not saying they're not.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I'm not saying they're not, but you never will know.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Even if they are honest. The split is so in
their favor. Sometimes even ninety nine cents on the dollar
and you get one penny for every hour view. That's
literally the Amazon's split right now. It's it's it's not
it's not to advantage filmmakers, unfortunately, it's to advantage the
public companies like Google that own them and make a
return and keep audiences glued to that platform. And it's
(46:45):
really it's an attention economy. You know. Even Ted Sarando's
at Netflix said he's competing with you know, TikTok, not Disney,
He's competing with Sleep he's competing for your time, not
for you know, just movie revenue.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, so interesting. Okay, I'm going to let you take
a minute to I asked you a lot of questions.
How do you choose a distributor, how do you choose
an agent, how do you know who to go with?
Can you pitch the my audience? And are you open
to receiving new submissions. I know it's a lot of
work because a lot of there's tens of thousands of
them out there, So just you take a second and
pitch yourself.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, I'm very open to it right now, especially I'm
deep in the weeds. I'm trying to find movies to
bring to Can we fly out there in a couple
of weeks, we'll be spending a week and a half
meeting with one hundred distributors from around the world. And
now it's kind of that crunch time where we're closing deals.
We're about to announce a couple of big ones this
week that I'm excited about with some big name cast
(47:40):
that I won't spoil the surprise here, but if you
check out Variety or Hollywood Report of this week, you
should see Archstone having a couple announcements, but we're still
looking for other projects to take we have.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I assume you for finished films over concept films and development.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Finish films, unless there's name cast, unless there's some big
actor passion, it's like that that thing will pre sell.
That's a great way to fund a movie. But as
you and your listeners know, hard to get those name talent,
especially without a lot of money. So yes, I'm looking,
and I can share my contact info. Go ahead, it's
email's best Jack at archstone ends dot com. That's J
(48:19):
A C K at A R C H S T
O N E E N T dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
You know what, I respect that you just did that
on a No. You know how many people won't do that.
I mean, I give email all the time because I
want people to contact me, and you know, you get
inundated obviously with a lot of people you don't want
to speak to. But yeah, but the fact that you
did that, I'm going to say, elevates you to the
level where you're saying, I'm not trying to hide. I'm
not I'm I'm being transparent. Send it to me. If
(48:45):
I don't like it, I'll let you know. But I
want to see it.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's uh, it's it's no guarantee that I'll
take on the.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Movie, but I can guarantee i'll respond to you. I'll
tell you yes or no, and why.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Well that's more than a lot of other people, all.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Right, and hopefully it's a yes, and we work together
and get your film Seene, both make money and you
can make the next one exactly.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
All right.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Well, this is a crazy business, as we know, but
it keeps going on and on and on because as
you said, it's sexy business. It's fun and I always
appreciate when you come on to the show. I've interviewed
you on lots of different formats. Jack's also be really
really generous with his time at Marcus because I teach
at San Diego State and UCLA, and he always lets
me bring my advanced students to his booth at the AFM,
(49:29):
sits with us and gives us an overview. My students
love that they have that, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Yeah, it's fun to share and hopefully, you know, hopefully
it inspires more more than it scares them away.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, I scared them, but then you inspire them. Anyways,
great to see you Gate thanks for being Yes.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks a lot, Thanks
Today we're going to delve deeper into my favorite subject,
which is distribution of marketing. You made a great film,
now you've got to get it released and let audiences
around the world see it. So I have a special
guest here today who is an expert in doing just that,
and we've spoken many times over the years. He knows
what he's doing, and I'm going to ask him the
tough questions, so hopefully all of you will learn how
(00:22):
distribution of indie films really works. If you want to
be a successful indie filmmaker, you need to know a
lot about not just the production of movies, but the business.
We are going to tell you the truth and reality
of what really happens in the indie film business. Hi, everybody,
(00:46):
welcome back to Indie Filmmaking Truth and Reality. I'm your host,
Jeff Deverett. Today I have a friend and a colleague
and somebody who has agreed to talk to me many
times before. This is Jack Shian, and he is the
president of art Own Distribution. Being in the business a
long time, knows how indie filmmaking and distribution really works,
(01:06):
and I get to ask him the tough questions. So Jack,
if you want to introduce yourself, tell us to sort
of your background.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure, thanks so much for having me, Jeff, congrats on
the new podcast. Very excited to have this on the
air and able to teach people about filmmaking. You know,
have some war stories and horror stories as well as
success stories, and you know, all the good, bad and
the ugly on this crazy business.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
We all chose.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I'm Jack she and president of Archstone. I've been at
the company for about six years. I've done about a
decade of film industry work before that, so about fifteen
sixteen years total. Started my background as a student at
USC interning for Sony and Universal and a couple other studios,
then going into the agency world, starting in the mail room,
(01:54):
doing the agent trainee program at WME, working for a
few motion picture agents there, and then deciding I wanted
to go more into the actual production and financing and
creation of films more so than representation, so left the agency,
went into a few different film sales and production companies
and still doing that, heading to the can Film Festival
(02:17):
in a couple of weeks, going to AFM and Berlin
and a lot of the other festivals on a yearly
basis and trying to find great films from filmmakers who
need representation and distribution, anything from early stage where there's
some cast or financing, putting together all the way up
through finished films. I need distribution as well as producing.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Our own films.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We were in post production on our latest action movie
that we're going to be premiering in can and distributing
later this year. We're making one or two movies a
year on our own as well, with boots on the
ground production as well as sales and distribution. So wearing
a lot of different hats in the indie film space.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Nice, Okay. I wanted just to bunk one thing before
we get into what I really want to talk about.
You said, worked in mailroom at WMM. One of my
students recently graduated and said, I'm going to try to
get a job in the mail room at w ME.
And I said, is that actually a thing?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Is there?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Like a mailing? Who has a mailroom anymore? Is that
like real?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, it's a great question. Mail is physical, mail is
less and less used in common. They still have mail
rooms as basically a training program or kind of an
entry level job. In my time when I started there
in twenty ten. I don't know if they still do this,
but we literally pushed around a physical mail cart with
(03:34):
different folders for each agent and would drop off.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Real or just to make it look like we could
call it the mail room for real.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
But at that point, I mean, email was still was
already the common practice. So I would say eighty ninety
percent of communication was digital and ten percent was physical.
So now you know, fifteen years later, if they do
any physical mail stuff, they probably do a little bit
more as just kind of a traditional thing, but mostly
munication is digital. So I'd actually love you should interview
(04:04):
a mail room person that currently works at one of
the agencies, because I'd be curious how much it's changed
in that time. I bet, I bet a lot, because
so much is digital now, and so much work is
remote now, and there's so much that can be done
with with AI and online programs that physical mail is
definitely not the way it was. But the heyday of
the agencies back like decades prior to me, it was
(04:25):
driving around you know town, delivering male physically.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's a client.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, and yeah we know where that came from. Yeah
for sure. Yeah, I just don't think it's really it's
now called the Amazon ups Root.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah exactly, but whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Okay, So Jack, you are I'm going to call you
an industry expert in I'm gonna we're focused on independent film.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, and so you're an.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Industry on indie films. That's what you guys focus on
at arch Zone. I mean, obviously, the bigger the better.
You know, it's easier to sell bigger name, higher quality films,
but those are far and few between, so you have
to make a living off of finding good entry retaining
low budget indie films. So when I say low budget
for you, it's probably five million and less for me.
(05:05):
My audience is like a million or less. A lot
of people are making films at one hundred, two hundred
three hundred thousand dollars, which you would probably call micro
budget filmmaking, but people are making at the end of
the day, I think you and I both agree. We've
had this discussion. Who cares how much is spent as
long as the film's entertaining.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Yeah, yeah, people lie anyways. Yeah, that's the tough part
is profitable.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Entertaining and profitability usually go hand in hand, not always,
but what.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Depends how much is spent exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You make an unbelievably entertaining film for one hundred grand,
it's going to be a lot easier to get your
money back than if you made it for a million.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Absolutely, yeah, And we make movies in the six figure
range as well. Five million, i would say, is kind
of our average in a good central target. We make
some films bigger, some film smaller. We'd like to be
making them bigger and bigger, but with more financing and
more money on the table, the bigger the risk as well,
and you know, we like to be taking that. But
(06:03):
in the indie space, there's very few companies making movies
in the you know, fifteen to twenty twenty five million
dollar range without serious financier backing anymore. It's mostly the
studios making giant films in the indie companies like ours
making smaller films, and there's a bit of a vacuum
in that middle class size of you know, fifth call
(06:23):
it fifteen to sixty million dollar budget movie, which used
to be very common and is less and less so now.
But we work with you know, even if a film
comes in and it's five figures under a hundred grand
but looks awesome and it was really well made and
is an interesting concept, we may take it on.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Okay, so let's take that off the table right away.
We're talking. I'm talking about films between five hundred thousand
and a million dollars, which I believe as a filmmaker,
you can make a decent film. But there's going to
be no walist talent, not in a film like that.
All right, there might be a B list or something
like that, but chances are you're not going to be
list talent. So let's just debunk that right away. Can
you even sell something that doesn't have an A list
(06:59):
act assuming let's assume it's very entertaining, it's maybe a
genre film or something that has an audience, but no
recognizable talent. Are you out of the game?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Just with that, you can absolutely sell those Name talent
is important. It's probably the biggest factor in selling films
because audiences want to see someone they recognize. Buyers feel
more comfortable if they're betting on that because this actor
has had success in the past and it has some
level of fame, and they know that their audiences will
be more likely to click and download and stream or
(07:31):
buy a box office ticket to go see that actor.
But you can absolutely sell movies without name talent, even
without B level name talent. Let's say it's a bunch
of no names, but it's an action movie, which is
usually the most sellable genre, or a great horror film
or a great thriller, something that's a little more fast paced,
something that can translate easier to foreign audiences and not
(07:54):
require the cultural nuance of maybe a comedy or a
romance or a rama might require a little bit more
of like, you know, tapping into the heartstrings of that
local audience. When it comes to something that's more genre,
like an action or a fantasy or a sci fi
horror thriller, it's a little easier to sell. So if
that's really done well, you don't need cast. Okay, you
(08:15):
can sell those.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And I'm going to say it's hard to do those
well at a very low budget because you need some
explosions and gunshots and all this kind of stuff. But
you want to get that right because if you don't
get it right, you're kind of wasting your time.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, cheaply done action will show. And it's pretty obvious.
That's why you see a lot of horror films being
made in the indie space, you can make a good
horror movie with.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
A low budget because it's.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
All about the scares and about you know, a suspenseful story.
And if you have you know, a good makeup artist
or a little bit of creature effects or just a
well told, you know, suspenseful scary story with decent actors,
you can sell that. But there's a lot of those
being made as well, so picking the special ones is hard.
(08:58):
I mean, it's it's it's a diamond in the.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Just before we get I really want to talk about distribution,
but before we get into that, let's just talk a
little bit about filmmaking. Are you seeing a lot of
the use of AI in these low budget indie films
yet or what do you sing?
Speaker 3 (09:14):
A little bit?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I'm starting to actually get pitched entire AI created movies.
There's a few in the marketplace now, some of which
we've had direct conversations with the filmmakers and others were considering.
I'm taking on that are fully made with AI and
and you know, as you may see on social media
and on YouTube, and a lot of these kind of
(09:35):
trailers that and even some like live commercials like you
saw that Toys r Us commercial. There's the Coca Cola commercials.
A lot that have been made with AI, and the
quality is getting better and better. I don't think it's
gotten to a point yet where you can have believable
human interactions. There's still that uncanny valley. It still feels
like they're video game characters. It doesn't feel super authentic,
and I don't think that's right around the corner though.
(09:59):
I think it will be maybe in the next year
or two. But for VFX on a big action or
a big fantasy or you know, space movie horror, yeah,
if it's a non human creature or it's some kind
of like big set piece, you know, a rocket ship
shooting through space, a big action sequence. AI is pretty
(10:20):
believable with that, and you can do it for pennies
on the dollar compared to what you would normally have
to do on in a live set. So I am
getting pitched projects that look great and look pretty big
and look even theatrical that are made mostly with AI,
and a way to separate those sometimes is bringing in
an actor, whether it's a list or B list or
whatever they can afford. Since there's so much savings with
(10:42):
the below the line production, you will have a little
bit more money, hopefully to be able to pay an
actor to come in and do a little bit of work,
and maybe you have some live action background scenes, you know,
blended into it, or you do a voiceover or have
a narration, or just do kind of like a couple
days of ADR work with an actor to add that
person to the poster and and the the marketing material,
(11:06):
which is its kind of elevated beyond a purely AI
movie that I think is still necessary to separate. But
it's a whole new world. It's it's a wild West,
and I haven't taken one on fully because I don't
I don't know well enough what the response would be.
I think there's a lot of hesitancy to using AI.
There's a lot of backlash and pushback against using it
(11:26):
to write scripts and using it for a lot of
the uh, you know, studio work that people are curly making.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
What about the audience though, do you think that the
audience is going to be recept Like people who watch
movies will be receptive to watching non human characters that
look human and frankly probably can act better, can cry
on a dime, laugh on a dime, do whatever. Yeah,
do you think they're gonna that's gonna be well?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Right?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I think I think animation and characters who are not
human will be the first movies to really work. Well,
we're still you know, waiting to see the first real
theatrical release of a not not a small kind of
twenty screen but a real, you know, one hundred two
thousand plus screen release of a movie that's almost all
(12:09):
made in AI. I think the studios are hesitant to
do that because they want to, you know, be or
at least appear to be supportive of the human labor
that goes into filmmaking. But I think if you take
out that kind of like the human being a human
being interactive scenes and have something that is more of
just like let's call it a kid's animation or you know,
(12:30):
alien or robot characters or monsters or something, I think
that could work, and I think that will look more
realistic without having that kind of Uncanny Valley issue.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I agree. Okay, let's switch over to distribution. So I'm
an indie filmmaker. I've made what I believe to be
a very entertaining film. I've screened it for family and friends.
Of course, they love it because they like me, they're supportive.
I've taken it to some festivals because I wanted to
get some real feedback and you know, maybe one in
a ward or two, gotten some good accolades. Now I
(12:58):
want to go into distribute. I want to get it released.
So it started at the beginning. How does somebody like me?
Not me personally, but how does a filmmaker find the
right distributor.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
There's a lot of different ways, and I think that
speaking from my experience, the world I know is through
the lens of a sales agent, and partnering with a
sales agent can be really useful. Are there ways to
do it without having that, of course, but I think
when you partner up with a sales agent, like what
I do, we have those relationships we know, you know,
(13:33):
the fifty plus distribution studios from the you know, big
big six or seven studios and platforms all the way
down to the aggregators and the small digital distributors. That's
a great place to start is to share it with
some sales agents who know those people and can help
you negotiate deals. And of course they're going to want,
(13:54):
you know, to be paid as well, so there is
you know, adding in that element of you'll have to
kind of weigh your choices. If you're a first time
filmmaker and don't know anybody in the distribution space, I
think it's worth, you know, it's worth paying somebody to
come represent you and giving them a piece of the success.
And you know, we never charge filmmakers out of pocket.
It's always a commission off of the work we do.
(14:15):
I would tell any filmmaker to, you know, be really
hesitant to proceed with anybody who's asking for them to
pay them to represent them. I think it should always
be commission based. So that's one great way to Can you.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Just explain to the listeners the different between a sales
agent and a distributor the way you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
It, sure, A distributor is the company that puts the
movie out, that actually handles the theatrical, digital, TV, DVD,
all the actual releasing of the film to the audience
in their territory. Sales agent is the company or person
who helps broker that deal, who helps present the film
(14:52):
to those distributors, helps find the right partner to distribute it,
and some sales agents like us at Archstone, are also distributors.
You both sometimes will release a film in North America
through digital and TV and physical and partner with other
partners of ours to do with a theatrical release. And
other times we'll sell it to another distributor who we
(15:14):
think is a better fit or can do bigger things
for that specific film.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Okay, So now somebody, a filmmaker has to figure out
do they use an agent or a distributor. The agent
would be agent be easier to access than a distributor.
Is that why they would use an agent, Because, like
you said, they're going to pay an extra level of commission.
So I'm just going to use numbers you don't. You
can verify if you want. So let's say agent is
going to take twenty percent and distributor is going to
take thirty percent more or less, and so you're you
(15:41):
have another layer of distribution cost commission. But you think
that's worth it.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
And I think it definitely can be worth it. And
the twenty percent that the agent takes is off of
the net. So rather than in your example adding thirty
and twenty to get to fifty, it would actually.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Be I didn't say fifty, I know, yeah, it would
be twenty million bucks comes in and the distribute takes
thirty that's three hundred thousand, then the agent's going to
take twenty percent off the seven hundred thousand, the remaining
seven Yep.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, So it's a little more palatable for a filmmaker
to think of it that way.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Not a lot, a little, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's six percent more palatable. It's twenty percent of thirty percent. Yeah,
six percent.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
More palatable exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
To answer your question on whether it's worth bringing on
sales agent, I think it depends on your level of
your network into the distributors. If you, as a filmmaker
have done like like you've made a lot of films yourself.
If you've been doing this for you know, ten, fifteen,
twenty plus years, and you have a bunch of films made,
and you've worked with a lot of the distributors that
mean something, you probably have a relationship with them already.
(16:42):
Sometimes it makes sense to just go directly to them.
Sales agents like their full time job is to leave
no stone unturned and find out who the distributors are,
the old, the new, who the right people are at
those companies. Because there's a lot of turnover, more now
than ever in the industry, So it's it's a helpful
guide to take you, especially if you are newer to
this and don't have a lot of relationships. You know,
(17:05):
I personally have probably one hundred different distributors and the
contact at those companies that I could go to with
any film, and I'm always finding new ones as well
as new companies start if you just want kind of
a better connector and relationship and more guidance, not just
getting it in the hands of the right people to
review it, but also how it's presented, how we can
(17:25):
help you guide the creation of the poster and trailer
and other marketing material, whether it makes sense to screen
it at a festival, to help you get into other festivals,
to present it properly at a market like can or
Berlin or AFM, and also to negotiate.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
The deal for you. Part of what I do.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Is help you know, filmmakers find or get the best
terms and the best bank for their buck in the
deal with the distributor. If a first time filmmaker is
going straight to the distributor, they're probably not going to
know even what points to negotiate or where.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
The space is.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So I try to I try to actually give my clients,
the filmmakers more money back in their pocket, even including
my commission, because of the deals I'm getting them.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
So that when you do a distribution deal on behalf
of the filmmaker. Are the two parties to the distribution deal,
the distributor and the filmmaker. You're not a party to it.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
We are a party to it, yeah, the sales agent. No.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
But so the filmmaker gives the rights to you, you
give the rights to the distributor. So it comes back
that way. Yeah, okay, so you're going to do a
deal on behalf of the filmmaker, but it's going to
be with you and the distributor. That's right, exactly, on
behalf of them.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Okay, So just getting a little technical legally, But there's
a lot of agents, like you said, you know, you
might know one hundred distributors. There's got to be five
hundred agents out there. How does somebody who's a new beat,
first film, very excited about being a filmmaker in their
film and you know how much time and effort and
passion they put into it, but knows pretty well nothing
about how films get sold. As you know, you see
(18:55):
them all the time. Yeah, how do they one even
find those agents then to choose.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
The right one.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
There may be five hundred Asians. I think there's only
twenty that really matter that.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
You know that you're one of them?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Exactly?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
How would I know that?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I think you can.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You should start by doing the research of using looking
at the trades, variety, Deadline, Reporter, Indie Wires, Screen Daily,
reading every article you can in the last couple of
years about films that have been released and sold, especially
around the times.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Of the markets.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
When you have Berlin in February, can in May, Afm
in November, Toronto in September, and a bunch of others
in between. Those are the big ones that a lot
of press releases will be coming out through those trades
around that time. Check out both current releases and over
the last few years. If there's films that you think
your film is similar to and scope, siye, genre, budget,
(19:51):
maybe even the actors in it, take a look at
what's worked and what hasn't worked, and try to you know,
a lot of times those press releases will have been
put out by the sales agents. You can see their
names mentioned in there. Using sites like IMDb, Sonando's studio system,
the numbers, just doing a ton of research into Okay,
if you start seeing the same sales agent name listed
(20:13):
on a few of these films, you know they're one
to call. So again, I think most of the films
in this kind of size, in this indie world are
usually handled by the same twenty, give or take sales agents.
If you're seeing announcements of movies that are big and
interesting enough to hit the radar of a deadline or
(20:34):
Hollywood reporter variety, et cetera, that means they've been filtered
through like the super micro you know, small movies that
are going to be hard to see the light of day,
that's gotten people's attention, and they're being represented by real
companies that are are worth reaching out to.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Okay, so let's say get a hold of a list
that has these twenty so called real players. Right, Yeah,
there's still twenty of them on there. How do I choose? Like,
you're a nice guy, but so is everybody else? Yeah,
how do I choose? What do I What am I
looking for as a filmmaker.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I'd look at their their past history, look at how
long have they been in the business. Uh, Sometimes the
longer the better because it proves that they know what
they're doing, they have experience, they have the relationships, and
they have you know a lot of a lot of
enough good more good deals than bad deals because they've
somehow stayed in business and building relationships. Further, if they're
a newer company, maybe they have some you know, new financing,
(21:29):
or they have some kind of relationship or something that
that gives them an edge. Maybe they can pay you
to represent your film. A lot of times that happens,
and we do it as well. It's called minimum guarantees,
where you put up money to represent the movie because
you know it's that valuable and you think you're going
to get a profit back in representing it. So if
there's companies that are maybe have come across some money
(21:51):
or just started and they can pay you to represent
the film, great, you know, meet with as many of
those buyers as you can and try to get the
best deal for your your project. Maybe you can even
start paying some of your investors back before you even
take it out to the market. But I would just
have as many interviews as you can reach out to.
You know, the you know six or ten that you
think are the most relative to what you're looking for,
(22:14):
or have represented the same kind of films and hopefully
had success with those. Look at the box office where
the film's released theatrically and did they turn a profit
if they weren't released theatrically? You know, find out whatever
digital VOD numbers you can see if they made sense,
if all the if the movies look like success stories,
both in terms of creative and reviews and Rotten Tomatoes
(22:36):
and things like that, as well as financially. You'll never
know for sure the whole backstory financially, but put the
piece together as much as you can through online sources.
If you see success stories and a lot of them
land with the same company, they's somebody to talk to, Yeah,
and I would interview them all.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Are you looking for the person or the company? Like
the company is just a legal entity. Like if I'm
negotiating with Archstone, am I saying, hey, Jack's going to
take care of me.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
It's both.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I've been at three sales companies and my career doing this,
but Archstone's also been around for sixteen years, so there's
I think there's value to both sides. I bring some
experience and relationships that I brought from my prior companies
to Archstone. That is additive to what they had when
they first hired me. But they also have benefits that
(23:24):
I came into, like, you know, a decade of history
and dealing with other distributors and filmmakers that I maybe
didn't know coming into it. And surviving in this business
for fifteen years is you know, nothing to sneeze at.
It's hard to stay alive in this so I think
there's something to respect about a company has been around
as long as that.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I often tell filmmakers that when they're down to sort
of the final strokes you've chosen say three or four
top candidates, go on their website, look at their films
and find the credits of two or three films of
films that are similar to yours, and actually contact the
filmmaker and say how'd they do? Like, are they decent people?
Did they were the honest? Did they do the job?
You know, sometimes the film's not good enough, but you
(24:07):
know you can tell from that.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
I think that's great advice.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
One of the films that right now we're busy closing
movies to bring to can and one of the films
that we closed last week did exactly that. We had
a couple of meetings with them went well, but they
were interviewing two or three other sales agents and they
wanted referrals. So they asked me, you know, to connect
them with some filmmakers that we represented recently, and I
did that on three other movies that I rerapped.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And yeah, but remarks thank you for the referral you're
going to give them good with of course, I say,
you go randomly.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Agree with you as well, and then you can.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
See, you know, like that's the sampling of.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Potentially maybe take three from the agent and do three
on your own.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yes, anybody gives a bad referral you don't want to.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Do visits with exactly, Yeah, okay, look for you.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
So what what happens? Tell tell filmmakers, what like a
lot of filmmakers go through this process of trying to
reach out, get an agent, get a distributor, but primarily
an agent, right and come up short. They get ghosted.
They just can't get an agent. Is that a combination
of one the agents don't like the films that they're representing,
(25:12):
or two maybe the filmmaker's delusional they're expecting to be
on Netflix, or that type of thing A lot of
filmmakers tell me I just can't get an agent or
a distributor.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I think it's more of the former. Is the issue
is that the sales agent doesn't see the value in
the film enough to make it worth their time, which
you know, can be a bitter pill to swallow as
a filmmaker because it's your baby and you believe in it.
But if you know, meet with half a dozen sales
agents or maybe directly with distributors and you get passes
(25:44):
across the board, something's not working with the film, something
that they don't feel like they can monetize it, or
they don't believe in the story, or there's other, you know,
whatever reason it is. If it's something where the filmmaker's delusional,
I think that can be an issue. If the filmaker
thinks it's worth, you know, a hundred times of what
the market says it really is. That's kind of the
(26:05):
filmmaker's choices or the sales agent's choice of how patient
can they be with this person, do they want do
they like the film enough that they're willing to take
it out and walk the client through the process of
understanding where the market is and helping bring their expectations
to reality and finding a good home for it, even
if it may not be what the additional grand vision
(26:27):
was of the filmmaker, or is it is life too
short and there's too many other movies to go after,
and it's not worth trying to you know, have that
debate with your client all day long.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, because their expectations are a little at a whack. Okay,
So on that note, I guarantee that ninety five percent
of the filmmakers to walk into your office probably say
something like, Jack, I know everybody tells you this, but
my film is really special, and how are you guys
going to get me onto Netflix or Apple or Hulu?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Like?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
And so what do you say to that?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
It happens all the time, and I'd have to see
the film first and then make my own judgment on
And sometimes they're right, you know, sometimes a filmmaker is
spot on. And there's been a lot of success stories
in Hollywood of directors, you know, making their first short
film or their first movie and getting winning some dance
and becoming you know, the next you know, Ryan Coogler
or something, but not often. No, that's stories and people
(27:19):
that's right that's very true. So those it's rare for
me to find a filmmaker who thinks their film is
worth less than it is, certainly way more common ninety
nine percent of the time that they think is worth more.
So you know, I'll watch the movie and I'll make
my own judgment. I'll share it with my team. I
have a great team of both foreign sales focused people,
marketing people, domestic distribution people, and sometimes I'll even share
(27:40):
it with other friends outside the company to get a take,
and you know, I'll go back and be honest with
what I think it's worth, and if that's lower than
our expectations, then we have that conversation and we can
see if I'm the right partner, and I might not
be if they if they're getting another sales agent saying
oh yeah, I can do you know ten times what
artstrone can do with this, and they believe them them,
(28:00):
they're a better fit and they should go with them.
But unfortunately, there is a lot of salesmanship in a
dishonest way and telling clients what they want to hear
just to get the deal and then apologizing later or
ghosting later worse. I try to never be that one
I try to be more honest and conservative and realistic
upfront and over deliver and have them happy at the
end of the day, or at least, you know, always
(28:22):
saying that, you know, I was a straight shooter and
they got what they signed up for, instead of promising
the world and delivering a lot less. That's that's never
a place I want to be. You know, if a
filmmaker thinks their film is you know, worth is the
next big franchise and they're not, They're getting passed on
left and right by industry. People have worked in this
space for a long time. It's probably time to look
(28:45):
in the mirror rather than thinking they're the only smart
person in the whole game.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
We're gonna get there. We're gonna look in the mirror
thing in a second. I want to go there, okay,
but just before I do, chances our films are not
getting onto the big sbod, not these low budget indie films.
I mean, just this is the way the business model
works these days. Those streamers are making their own product
at that level. All right, So remember I call this
podcast Indie Filmmaking Truth and Reality. Yeah, because I'm gonna
(29:10):
say something right now that most of my listeners are
going to be super disappointed with But it's not the
first time I've said it. I'm going to say that
most indie filmmakers don't make their money back. That's certainly
not on their first or second films. Maybe once down
the road they realize what to spend and all that,
but they're they're not making their money back because they're
not getting a big SVOD sale anymore. A VOD is very,
(29:32):
very hard. It's like tens of thousands of not hundreds
of thousands of transactions in order to make your money
back there. Transactional is marginal at best. So I'm saying
that most indie films probably won't make their money back.
And the reason that filmmakers do it is because they
want to be that one, that anomaly that basically wins
the lottery. That's the dream, it's the dream scenario.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Am I wrong?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
No, You're not wrong. Most films. Most indie films don't
make their money back. Frankly, most studio films don't i
their money back either. You look at like snow White.
You know, one of the biggest franchises ever just just
bombed and is probably going to take a long time
to make its money back after once it's finally on
Disney Plus and gets a lot of streams.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
But let me let me stop. An indie filmmaker makes
one film, it's make or break. If they don't make
their money back, there's a very good chance they're never
making another film because it's going to be hard for
them to raise financing a studio. They're just playing the odds.
I mean, they're gonna make twenty films that year. Five
will be ten pole releases. One might hit, two might
(30:33):
be marginal.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
One's going to lose money.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
It's a business.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
It's a factor judging their bets across the okay.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
So they can spread it across they can spread the
risk across many films. Not an indie filmmaker, that's right.
They're kind of one and done.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, And having your first indie film not make a return,
not make a good profit, doesn't mean you're out of
the business. I think it depends on who financed it
and what expectations they went in. If they were only
looking for a profit, then they're probably not gonna invest
in your second move. But if they knew that, you know,
this is a fun business. You're creating art, they believed
in the story, they wanted it to be told. There
(31:07):
could be a lot of non financial reasons they got involved,
and they may want to bet on you again, or
they may want you to just keep telling that story.
I know you've made films where it's a biopic and
that person finance it themselves because they've been you know,
they've made money in other businesses. I've worked with the
filmmakers who have done that as well. They financed a
story that they are passionate about because they want to
(31:29):
tell it, and sometimes it works financially, and sometimes it
finds an audience.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
But that person wanted you know, it was more about
getting their story told and seen than it was making
a profit. If you're purely in the for profit business,
you kind of do need to hedge your bets across
even a small slate of four or five films like
a studio does. In a larger sense, that's very hard
to do. It's hard to raise financing for one film,
let alone multiple. So no, you're not wrong, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So why, I mean, I know the setorical question. Why
if it's that tough way do people keep doing it?
Over and over and over again.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
This is kind of love movies.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
People love I love this, this, this this art form.
They love being entertained watching them. Making them is also
fun to dream.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
This is a dreamer's business. It is kind of like
wanting to be a professional.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Athlete, totally.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It's one of the sexiest industries out there, and it's
a product that a lot of almost everyone in the
world enjoys watching. There's very few people who just hate
movies in general. So you're making something for people to
enjoy and to like and to hopefully, you know, appreciate
you for making. And it's a fun process to make it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
But it can be painful when it's the financial Absolutely,
it's a financial disaster.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Not a great bet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
The reason I'm doing this podcast is to give them
a little bit more of an edge to actually change
the odds from say zero point one percent to maybe
five percent.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Just give them some tools and stuff to think about.
That's the whole point, which leads to somebody.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I'd give a little I'd be a little more optimistic
on the percentage. I'd say twenty five percent maybe profit
hole let's say, Yeah, it depends depends on how big
the movie is too. And also how many experienced voices
you listen to. I think if you want to make
your first movie, like, the more people like Jeff, like me,
(33:22):
like who've worked in this world, in this business, that
you can sit down and talk to and pick their
brain and hone your plan before you make the movie,
the better off you're going to be instead of just
shooting blind.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Okay, so that's exactly you segued right into where I
want to go. You said, make your plan before you
make the movie. So to me, what I tell all
my clients and other filmmakers is the plan is not
how you're going to make the movie. The plan is
how you're going to sell the movie. That's the plan
you got to be making before you make the movie,
which is who's the audience is going to go to?
How are you going to market it? Because how many
(33:55):
filmmakers walk into your office and say, hey, hallelujah, not
only do make a great movie, but I tucked away
one hundred thousand dollars for marketing and we have some
firepower here. How are we going to spend it so
we get some attention? Does that ever happen?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Sometimes most producers spend everything on the production and put
it all hopefully on screen and not people's pockets right
off the bat, though there's a lot of that happening too.
Keeping an extra budget for marketing is pretty rare, actually,
some some do it, and those who do, I think
are smart. If you're able to have, especially you know,
(34:30):
something as large as a six figure or in a
real you know, big swing, a seven figure marketing budget,
then you're able to figure out a theatrical plan do
you know, traditional print and advertising, but a lot of
digital campaigns. You can really be smart about using social media,
which is a can be a cheap but really effective
(34:52):
way of tapping audiences and getting attention. So having a
marketing budget is great, but few, very few plan that
out ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Okay, if you're let's say your filmmaker go through this
whole distribution thing, you don't come up with the right distributor,
or maybe you do, but you don't have the right
distribution deal, so you're just not comfortable. Maybe they don't
like your film. All right, let's say distributors don't like
your film. So now you're sitting there, you got to
make a decision. You either bang your head against the wall,
stick your hard drive up in your closet and move
(35:20):
on to the next thing in your life. Or you say,
what else is out there? So here's what else is
out there? And you tell me if this is delusional?
All right, now, most filmmakers do not want to do
anything but make the film. But I say to filmmakers,
go find somebody who's good at marketing. If you don't
want to do it, go raise another fifty to one
hundred thousand dollars. You just spent say six or seven
(35:41):
hundred thousand dollars making your film, and you made a
good film, made a good film. Put a marketing plan
together and execute it, and send everybody to either your
own website or a transactional streaming platform where you can monetize.
You're going to get very very few people. But even
if you get ten thousand people and you really target
(36:01):
them with some marketing, which is you know, classic self distribution,
is that delusional? Honestly, No, I.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Think it's actually very forward thinking, and I think that's
the direction a lot of our industry is going to
start going. I was involved in producing a show recently
called Golden Guy that is about a guy who opens
up a restaurant in La It's a Mexican Japanese fusion restaurant.
He's inspired by the Golden Guy neighborhood in Tokyo, which
(36:30):
is why it's called that. And it's a series that's,
you know, an eight to ten episodes series made mostly
for digital for self release on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
So it's a little bit of a.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Skew off of the indie film traditional distribution. But I
think more distribution is heading that direction away from the
walled gardens of s FOD platforms and theatrical and more
into hitting audiences where they spend their time, and YouTube
is a big one YouTube. Eleven percent of all viewing
time is spent on YouTube now the latest report shows,
and Netflix is seven or eight percent, so fifty percent
(37:04):
more viewership time is spent on YouTube and on other
mobile social media apps than Netflix, Disney's even less than that, Amazon, Hulu, etc.
So I think we're going to start seeing more opportunities
for stories to be told on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
But the only problem with YouTube is monetizing, Like you
have to have a robust YouTube channel that you're monetizing
at the relate level, and you have to have a
lot of visitors, and yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So the way we're we're handling that project, which is
not a feature film, it's a short form, so it's
more appropriate I think for the kind of clickbait, short
attention span add audience of YouTube rather than someone willing
to sit through a full feature film, which is usually
better on a big screen and when you have some patients.
But we're marketing that one in a unique way where
(37:52):
we're reaching out to influencers across social media who are
fans of Japanese or Mexican food, La culture, restaurants, a
lot of the different themes of that show, and looking
organically at kind of a network of those influencers who
have fan bases that are significant, Some are several thousand,
(38:13):
others are up to the you know, millions, and saying, hey,
we're launching this show. We think your audience would love this.
Work with us as a partner, maybe does a little
bit of payment upfront otherwise than maybe just an at
a revshare on the ad side, put it on your
YouTube channel, on your social media channels, and work with
us to promote this show and actually host it. So
(38:36):
I think this is to go to your marketing question.
That's part of our marketing and distribution is hitting the
audience where they are today, which is the social media
AVAD YouTube space, and also marketing through people they already
follow and already trust as a as an influencer, as
a leader who's a taste maker and can say this
(38:58):
is going to be a great show, check this out.
A little trickier on the film side because of just
the format of being long form that doesn't play as
well on a YouTube or on a mobile app, But
I think that's kind of one of the areas where
it's going to. Where the future of indie filmmaking is
going to go, is being able to tell stories, whether
it's a quicker format or maybe a split up episodic format,
(39:20):
tell the same story in a way that hits that
young audience that's on a YouTube for example. Yeah, and
be a little bit more organic with how you market it.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I don't think filmmakers are struggling with the storytelling part.
I think they're still struggling with the monetizing part. Yeah,
always have been. By the way everybody says, oh, the
mark has changed. I mean I started a few years
before you did quite a few and it's always been
a struggle.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I mean the DVD years were good because it was
a physical thing, but you know, nobody talks about the
return rates and all this kind of stuff, So it's
always been a struggle. And I think the major disconnect
with indie filmmakers is there's just so focused on making
the product and they're not focused on selling it at
all and marketing it, whereas in contrast a big studio,
(40:05):
the filmmakers have the luxury of just focusing on making
because that's their job, and there's an entire marketing department.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
It's right.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Indie filmmakers don't have a marketing department.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
You have a filmmaker and a marketer at the same time,
which you don't want to be a fundraiser.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
You actually don't want to be, and you're not good
at it. You're only good at filmmaking. Now in your
company in the indie in distribution world, are you guys
taking up marketing? Are you doing marketing for filmmakers or
other companies? I mean, obviously you're going to charge it
back or maybe you will. I don't know how do
you treat marketing.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
We do market as well.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We have a usually a reimbursable amount that we again,
we won't take money out of the pocket of any clients,
but we'll go and sell the film at these markets,
create posters, make trailers, do digital campaigns, do press releases.
There's costs all that, but we'll we'll reimburse ourselves off
of what we sell, so that'll be part of the
(40:57):
deal we close.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
So we do that. We do that.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
I've a great partner at Archstone who handles marketing and
has a team that she oversees. We have a digital
group that whenever we are distributing a film directly in
North America ourselves, there's a whole team that handles that,
and it'll be largely digital marketing because that's where most
of the audience is and mostly the ad spend is
(41:21):
most beneficial these days across especially Google and Facebook and
social media. So we will do marketing, or if we
partner with distributors, will work with them to they'll have
their own marketing department and campaign and plans, and we'll
be aligned with them and try to be supportive and
share marketing materials and go over plans together.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Realistically, how many indie films that are made for less
than a million dollars get a real theatrical release, and
I'm talking not one or two screens. I'm talking you know,
twenty five screens or more. And do any of them
make money.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
If it's twenty five screens or more?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Yes, there are a lot of six figure movies that
do get that. You get into the you know, seven
hundred plus screen count.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
No, forget that millions.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, so let's let's say it's a movie that you know,
it was made for two hundred and fifty thousand and
gets there's some of those that are getting fifty screen releases,
but I'd say that's probably the mast.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
How are they.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Getting people to come out? There's no stars, there's no names.
I mean, what are they doing to do organic marketing
to get people to come to pay fifteen dollars to
watch a movie?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, those movies are usually when they're when they're doing
a small theatrical like that, when it's you know, fifty
or less screens, it's usually to promote the digital release.
It's not to make a profit on the box office,
even if they sold me there are occasions where a
movie will sell out and then they'll do a platform
release and double the screen count the next weekend, and
then it catches fire and becomes you know, this cultural
(42:48):
zeitgeist of a movie and and.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Builds a huge box office like that. A lot of.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Award season movies you see that happening, Like Anora made
you know, ninety percent of its money once it was nominated,
and they did, and Neon did a eighteen million dollar
marketing campaign behind it.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
So that's obviously how many people have eighteen million dollars
through against some marketing.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
Very few.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So outside of those, you know, one in a million situations,
it's mostly to put a film out and say, hey,
this this is in theaters now. So when we do
a digital release, it's categorized as having just been a
theatrical movie, it'll get better placement on a lot of
the streaming platforms in demand. That's a strict kind of
(43:32):
split between how they position a film and how they
market it to their audience, whether or not it's been theatrical.
So it's really a marketing positioning thing. It's not so
much about making a profit because most don't make a
profit in the theater. There's a cost to the theaters
they have to spend up front that you have to
then sit behind. So sometimes I'll I'll advise, you know,
a client to go theatrical because I think it's it's
(43:54):
worth it and it's a big enough movie, and other
times i'll you know, advise against it. Ultimately, I want
to empower them. If it's their dream to have a
movie in theaters, I'll support that and put it out there.
But it makes sense a lot of times for a
smaller film to not do any theatrical and just put
it out digitally and not have those tens of thousands
of dollars of theatrical spend to sit behind and recoup first.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah, I agree with some money.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Right off the bat.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
I could talk to you all day long. I have
so many questions on behalf of filmmakers about distribution, but
I'm only gonna ask you one more because I'm cognisant
of the time. A lot of filmmakers say to me,
this whole AVO D thing, how do we know, how
do we like audit or how can we trust that
they do the count right that they attribute. I mean,
there's so many layers that go into how many times
(44:43):
it plays, how many ads play, what amount of time played.
There's not a possibility that you could ever account for
this maybe the big studios can because they might do
an audit here or there, you know, and they have
the resources. But in any filmmaker, you just have to
completely trust every level of you should I mean, do
you've come across that.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Unfortunately, I think it's it's very Not only is it
hard to audit, it's expensive.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
You have to pay for that.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
And if if you find in an audit that a
distributor has been you know, lying to you or fudging
the numbers, then they'll cover the cost of your audit.
But sometimes it's out of your own podcast that's.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
The distributor which you have direct contact with. I'm talking
about the a vo D platform like YouTube for instance.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Yeah, I mean you kind of have to just trust them,
which is unfortunately. The reality is like Google and YouTube
are such monsters in the space now, Like I said,
they're the biggest streaming They're the true winner of the
streaming wars. They weren't really even considered a contestant. It
was Netflix versus Max, versus Disney versus Amazon. But YouTube
is the winner that that's where the audience is going
(45:47):
and you can find a lot of you know, older
films on there for rental, so they're streaming films too.
But to audit YouTube, you really have to just kind
of trust the numbers they give you.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
And they could be total bs.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, it's just they're that powerful and that big, and
unfortunately indie filmmakers have have to rely on on YouTube
avad revenue. Same thing with Amazon Prime and a lot
of these other to all of them, all.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Of them, you have to just hope that everybody's sort
of honest.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
And they're getting I'm not saying they're not.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I'm not saying they're not, but you never will know.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Even if they are honest. The split is so in
their favor. Sometimes even ninety nine cents on the dollar
and you get one penny for every hour view. That's
literally the Amazon's split right now. It's it's it's not
it's not to advantage filmmakers, unfortunately, it's to advantage the
public companies like Google that own them and make a
return and keep audiences glued to that platform. And it's
(46:45):
really it's an attention economy. You know. Even Ted Sarando's
at Netflix said he's competing with you know, TikTok, not Disney,
He's competing with Sleep he's competing for your time, not
for you know, just movie revenue.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Yeah, so interesting. Okay, I'm going to let you take
a minute to I asked you a lot of questions.
How do you choose a distributor, how do you choose
an agent, how do you know who to go with?
Can you pitch the my audience? And are you open
to receiving new submissions. I know it's a lot of
work because a lot of there's tens of thousands of
them out there, So just you take a second and
pitch yourself.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, I'm very open to it right now, especially I'm
deep in the weeds. I'm trying to find movies to
bring to Can we fly out there in a couple
of weeks, we'll be spending a week and a half
meeting with one hundred distributors from around the world. And
now it's kind of that crunch time where we're closing deals.
We're about to announce a couple of big ones this
week that I'm excited about with some big name cast
(47:40):
that I won't spoil the surprise here, but if you
check out Variety or Hollywood Report of this week, you
should see Archstone having a couple announcements, but we're still
looking for other projects to take we have.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I assume you for finished films over concept films and development.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Finish films, unless there's name cast, unless there's some big
actor passion, it's like that that thing will pre sell.
That's a great way to fund a movie. But as
you and your listeners know, hard to get those name talent,
especially without a lot of money. So yes, I'm looking,
and I can share my contact info. Go ahead, it's
email's best Jack at archstone ends dot com. That's J
(48:19):
A C K at A R C H S T
O N E E N T dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
You know what, I respect that you just did that
on a No. You know how many people won't do that.
I mean, I give email all the time because I
want people to contact me, and you know, you get
inundated obviously with a lot of people you don't want
to speak to. But yeah, but the fact that you
did that, I'm going to say, elevates you to the
level where you're saying, I'm not trying to hide. I'm
not I'm I'm being transparent. Send it to me. If
(48:45):
I don't like it, I'll let you know. But I
want to see it.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's uh, it's it's no guarantee that I'll
take on the.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Movie, but I can guarantee i'll respond to you. I'll
tell you yes or no, and why.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Well that's more than a lot of other people, all.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Right, and hopefully it's a yes, and we work together
and get your film Seene, both make money and you
can make the next one exactly.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
All right.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Well, this is a crazy business, as we know, but
it keeps going on and on and on because as
you said, it's sexy business. It's fun and I always
appreciate when you come on to the show. I've interviewed
you on lots of different formats. Jack's also be really
really generous with his time at Marcus because I teach
at San Diego State and UCLA, and he always lets
me bring my advanced students to his booth at the AFM,
(49:29):
sits with us and gives us an overview. My students
love that they have that, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Yeah, it's fun to share and hopefully, you know, hopefully
it inspires more more than it scares them away.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, I scared them, but then you inspire them. Anyways,
great to see you Gate thanks for being Yes.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks a lot, Thanks
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