3. Till Death Do Us Part

Alex & Cass discuss the process of greiving, the difficulty with losing both humans and pets in our lives, and how the process of grieving looks different for everyone. Grief never moves in the ways we expect and having discussions about the aging process is so important! This hard conversation talks about normalizing how processing, and decisions about death, is so important for our mental and physical well-being.

Episode Transcript

(00:11):
Hey, everyone, it's episode threeof Its Sensitive with Alex and Cass.
I'm big you'll hear plenty of laughingtoday, but we're talking about a pretty
depressing subject. I feel like I'mgoing to be saying that every podcast.

(00:31):
I probably should stop saying that.Right, it's heavy. We'll be talking
about death. Uh, you know, it's very timely because a couple of
things have been going on for alot of people. I know personally,
a couple people my age in theirthirties have passed away due to cancer or

(00:53):
unexpectedly in their sleep. And youknow, Cash just went recently with went
through or through few things. Yes, I lost my dog of thirteen years
four weeks ago as of yesterday.That's crazy. Yeah. And we started

(01:15):
talking about just death in general andrealized that this is definitely a sensitive subject
that people don't only have a goodtime talking about. And when I say
good time, I mean like findingways to productively talk about it, because
grief is such a heavy thing,and I feel like people are afraid to
talk about how they're grieving because everybodydoes it in different ways at different times.

(01:41):
Yeah, I agree, and Ialso think it's uncomfortable even though it's
the inevitable, Like we all knowat some point we're going to die,
unless we all get turned into adombey start walking dead or something. But
at some point we're all going todie. And I don't think we talk
enough about how the aging process isbeautiful, right, mm hmm. Death
is just scary, So I agree. Yeah. You know, one of

(02:05):
the things I always like to callout is I think what makes death so
scary, or most things scary,is the fear of the unknown. We
don't know what happens after death.And it's ironic you said, like we're
all going to die because I wasjust reading an article that a guy was
transfusing teenager blood to try to likedeage and just creepy. It's creepy because

(02:30):
it sounds like almost vampire like,you know, let's just steal all the
blood from the teenagers, I know, right, and then we're gonna live
longer. I watched this show onNetflix. Have you ever seen it?
Called Bad Vegan? No. Essentially, it's a crazy show. But the
lady was getting scammed by a manbecause he convinced her that he could make

(02:51):
her and her dog live forever.And it was a lot of many,
like hundreds of thousands of dollars,if not more, And I was like,
this is a wee, So don'tdie by getting scammed or anything.
But I think one of the bigthings I want to start with, and

(03:15):
these topics are probably going to goback and forth, is human and pet
deaths can be perceived differently. Iwent through some very heart wrenching pet deaths
and twenty twenty and twenty twenty onecrazy and the one in twenty twenty was

(03:38):
just awful, and it was apet death. I had two cats from
kittens, Tony and Bitsy, andthey were littermates and they had my personality.
They greeted me at the door,they came when I called them.
Bitsy was always on my chest.They were just my my cats. They

(03:59):
were just my soul eighty Yeah.And Bitsy got ill and we didn't know
how severe it was, and justthings started happening very rapidly, and I'm
sinking money into it, and nextthing I know, I didn't find out
until after she died that it waslung cancer, but it just was happening

(04:23):
so rapidly. I was panicking andfreaking out because this is the first death
I had to like really deal withthat was like my own I didn't have
any major like family deaths that wereas impactful. This was the first pet
that was my only pet, andlike they lived with me, and they
were like my emotional support animals almostbecause they had been through a lot of

(04:43):
moves with me living by myself.They were there for all these major milestones,
and so losing Bitsy became this likeearth shattering event for me, and
I could not let her go,and I I remember them saying, like,
she can't breathe, there's a shoewith her lungs. We don't know
what's going on, and we couldtry to do surgery, but we have

(05:06):
no idea. And just I rememberbringing her home and I was because she
had been in the hospital. Andmind you, this is during COVID,
so I couldn't even go into thevets office. I had to sit outside
every time they took her back.So that made all of this even worse.
And you came over the night beforeI was supposed to take her to

(05:30):
be put down, because they're justlike that will be easier for her,
it will be a quieter death.And she had been like really bad,
Like I was giving her ivy fluids, and she really didn't have a lot
of energy. She really wasn't eating. And then she perked up when you
came over and she was being supercute and rolling around and you could tell
she was still tired, but shejust got some energy in her. Yeah,

(05:54):
that was my girl. And Ithink that night you were thinking about
taking her that night, yes,And I was like, just spend another
night with her, like do it? So? Yeah, And it was
so hard because I'm like, well, what if this is like her having
a miracle comeback, or what ifshe's really not ready to die? Because
she was only seven, which isa young senior, Like that's pretty young

(06:15):
for a cat. And I waslike, what if I'm making a poor
decision by having her put down andshe doesn't need to put down And I'm
having all these doubts about it.Yeah, And I don't want to say
completely unlike humans, but unlike humanswith pets, we have to make that
decision way more frequently or maybe waymore likely because they live not as long

(06:40):
as humans do, and because theycan't communicate the same way we do.
We have to make those decisions withoutyou know, their input, you know,
And I know, there's a lotof controversy around allowing people what is
that called. It's called, ohmy goodness, call something basically the medical

(07:01):
term for you want to eliminate yourself. Correct, we'll look up the proper
term before the end of this episode, but euthanasia or whatever. Yeah,
I don't know if that's the rightterm, but that's a controversial topic to
whether humans should be allowed to allowmedical death of themselves and choose choose that

(07:25):
because you know, if you knowyou have a terminal illness, you know,
we let humans suffer, but wedon't allow pets to. And I
absolutely personally think that's the right decisionwith pets is because there are definitely situations
where it's way more painful and muchmore merciful to let them pass peacefully.

(07:46):
And I'll tell you why, becauseI did this with Bitsy. I ended
up taking her the next day andI went to Ohio State Vet Hospital.
There's only a couple specialty vat hospitalswho do this kind of you know,
the work that you know Bitsy neededdone, and one was you know,
med MEDVET and OSU, and OSUwas slightly cheaper, so that's where I

(08:09):
was going and they're like, well, we have these rooms where it's like
has couches and we'll come in andif you want, you can hold her
and we could just you know,put her down that way in this comfortable
environment. And Tony had been withher her whole life. And I asked
that I could bring Tony and they'relike, oh, absolutely, we recommend

(08:30):
it. And it sounds crazy ifyou're not a pet owner, it really
does. And I'll kind of tellyou what happened so that if you're not
a pet owner you can kind ofmaybe get some perspective. Bitsy wasn't feeling
well. I could shot tell shewasn't the decline they gave me like a
quality of life chart. She justdefinitely didn't have the quality of life.

(08:52):
I was depressed, like laying onthe floor crying constantly. Bitsy had no
energy. Tony knew stuff was up. So we go to OSU. We
go back to this room with thesecouches, dim lights. I let Tony
out of the cage. She alwaysdid really well with that, and he's
just kind of not wanting to comeout because he's like something's going on.

(09:15):
And I'm holding Betsy and they comeback and they asked me. They're like,
you don't have to be there forthis, and I was like,
I was so attached to Betsy.I was like, absolutely not. I
want to hold her until the veryI'm going to cry. I was like,
we's see which one of us goon. It's together, it's a
day. Gosh, this is sohard still, I know, just like,

(09:41):
don't you got to put it inthe back of your mind so you
don't think about it. Now you'rebringing it in. This is real life,
though, Are at about to makeme cry? She let me just
get the go bit. Yeah.So I was holding Betsy on my chest
and the VET came over and gaveher the youth in Asia shot and she

(10:01):
just like took her last breath.Both I was holding her and it was
so so hard, clearly because youknow we're now three four years out.
Just talking about it in this wayis like really, you know, it's
a good tears like that I havethat experience to hold onto with her,

(10:24):
you know, because I could notimagine leaving her by herself and her last
cold table or something alone. Yeah, And that say that all the time
when I've talked to them, isthat they like they tried to be there
for the pet, but it's notthe same as their owner who's been with
them their entire life. And Iknow it's hard on humans, but I
can't imagine being a pet, youknow, not knowing what's going on and

(10:48):
being afraid and your person like leavesyou and to tell you, like how
in Tune animals are. Tony wasin the room and I think I passed
Bitsy over to the vet and Isaid, you know, I picked up
Tony and he was a big boy. He was like toldin back almost but

(11:13):
I had shown him Bitsy and heknew his stuff was going on. But
the most meaningful thing is he tookhis paw and put it on her head
to acknowledge, Oh my gosh,that's so freaking cute, and that she
had passed. And that was likethe cutest thing. Like we pets no

(11:37):
they know, and he knew likeshe was gone. And that's why I
wanted to bring him is so like, you know, I've heard stories of
dog and you know, kat andare saying like they take their pet and
never come back and they look forthem, and I didn't want that to
happen. And you know, Iwent home and Tony was very in tune
with me. Again, he waslike my soul cat, and he would

(12:01):
lay on my chest when I'm sador just lay nearby, and he he
was my emotionally. Emotionally, hewould just be there for me and let
like, let me pat him andbe there and do his thing. And
clearly you can tell, like thisis just as emotional if this were a
human, if not even more.Yeah, because sometimes dogs are and cats,

(12:24):
excuse me, pets in general,they're just and I know the cliches
thing to say is, oh,they're so loyal, and you know,
they're compassionate to a fault and allthat good stuff. But the reality of
the situation is pets are greater thanhumans, and you know, we take
care of them. They depend onus, they want to protect us.

(12:46):
We want to protect them where wemake sure they eat right, and they
look to us for everything, andwe spend a lot of time, like
I don't know that I've spent asmuch time as I've spent with my dogs
with any human. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it was reading an article
of why pet losses are so difficult, and it's because pets don't hurt us

(13:07):
in the way humans do. Theyare to your point, dependent on us,
and they don't emotionally hurt us andcause this pain and regret. They're
so innocent in a way, justlike children. Yep. And because of
that bond we have with them,because they don't cause this pain and suffering,

(13:28):
they're mainly a source of joy.The article was saying that, you
know, that's why losing a petis sometimes worse than losing another human being
is because you don't have this generalizedanimosity towards them. That's deep. That
makes sense because I'd be like whenmy dog gets on my nerves or you
know, he's acting like a fooltoday, but like he doesn't do anything

(13:50):
to me that I'm going to belike, oh, I want to put
him out on the corner. Iknow, we could definitely get frustrated with
our pets, Like, yeah,I especially get frustrated. I get frustrated
the cats. How you holler atthem, yes, or dogs you know
they're barking and you're like half somepoint, and especially if you have a

(14:11):
husky. Yeah, But it's likethat anger frustration passes with pets because you
know they're innocent and they don't knowbetter and it's just them being them,
you know, and I don't havea little attitudes like they try to immediately
get back in your good graces,right, yeah, it's very short lived,

(14:33):
like they're never like for eighteen days, I hated you like a human
will be. I don't want thatfood. Oh wait, now I do.
That's the old fish mines. Ohmy gosh. But no, see
your point. I think, firstof all, let me just say,
people that don't like cats are dogsare weird. Not just kidding, but
people that choose not to understand howgrieving a pet can't affect you are probably

(15:01):
not the people that you want tohave around you when you are trying to
navigate that situation. I found myselftrying to like make it make sense to
a couple of people after my dogdied or like defended like, oh,
you know, when I was atmy lowest moments, my dog was always
there. But it's like if youdon't understand it, then that's okay.
I don't want to talk to youabout it anyways. But I think it

(15:22):
is tough, Like people will saythings like, oh, it was just
a dog or it was just acat, right, and we're like to,
oh, no, like I wouldhave spent my whole bank account right
to make sure that my dog ormy cat could have stayed alive and lived
a healthy life. And then youknow there's to no end, to no
end. Like the night before mydog what I put him down because I

(15:46):
had them come to the house toput him down. I talk him to
the Annibal hospital and I think Ispent a thousand dollars and I knew in
the back of my mind like hewas declining, but I was like,
just in case, yeah, yeah, just in case. It's so scary,
it is, you know, andwe talk about like sometimes you know

(16:08):
it's coming because pets have shorter life, but you still don't like always know
that it's coming, and you're notalways prepared for that. And they have
these shorter lifetimes. You know they'reeventually when it died during your lifetime.
None of our pets outlive us,unless you have a tortoise or something like.
Tortoises live a long time. Uh, they can live to over one

(16:30):
hundred years old. Shut up.I never knew that larks something new,
Okay, random fact in the middleof the fuck. But it's just it's
hard, both with human and petdeaths, Like when it happens all of
a sudden, especially if it's somethingtraumatic, you know, you just you're

(16:52):
not prepared. You're in like emergencymode. You're trying to make these decisions
on the fly. And you arevery thoughtful, I know, with your
money about how you're spending it,and you're constantly doing quality of life checks.
That's why you were able to makethat decision. Yeah, but you
had time to process that and movethrough it. But when it's unexpected,
kind of like what I'm saying withBitsy, it happened rapidly in a short

(17:15):
period of time, you don't alwaysfeel like you make the best decisions because
you're just trying to figure it outas it's going. Yeah, and even
in my case, I feel likeI still got hit with a little bit
of oh my gosh, I didn'texpect that because he was probably declining over
a year. Right. It startedwith like his vision loss and then something

(17:38):
they call like sundowners where he's kindof almost like a dog dementia, right
when he's starting to just show theselike really senior signs of not being the
exact same. And then there waslike a period of six seven months after
you know, we worked through thathe was fine, then started seeing some
crazy liver values right, and thenyou know, I turned into veterinarian because

(18:00):
Andrew right natural herbs, making hisfood from scratch, boom, Liver's good.
And it's like he perked back upright. And a lot of pet
owners say that, like their dogor cat will be sick and then they'll
have this period where they'll just parkback up and seeing fine. Ye,
And that's ultimately what happens before thedemise, And like I totally didn't buy

(18:22):
into that until it happened to mewhere he like perk back up. We
celebrated his thirteenth birthday, had apark right, and then we ended up
finding out it wasn't liver. Itwas the kidney felling. Kidneys fell colwick
or at least in my situation andsome of the articles that I read,
and before I knew it, itwas he was in chronic kidney failure,
wasn't eating, wasn't drinking. I'msyringing chicken broth and water in his mouth

(18:47):
at this point right then, hewas weak, could hardly stand up.
Then he was kind of going tothe restroom on hisself. Then he just
started breathing really heavy, and whenI took him to the hospital, she
said, his kidneys aren't filtering anything, so his blood that is essentially acidic,
and he has a fever. He'sprobably just burning inside and he has
to pant like that to get alittle bit of relief. But the breathing's

(19:07):
probably not going to slow down.And so that's one I knew, Like,
damn, I thought time got youparked back up last week. Yeah,
it's so hard when you're in itright, like they're part of your
life. Like you said, wespend so much time with them, more
than most humans, and it's it'show do you let go? And I

(19:32):
think you touched on an important pointthere, whether it's humans or pets,
is that the grieving process, Likeyou said, you knew for a year,
you were essentially starting to grieve whenyou first found out right, you
knew he was older. But thatgrieving process is not textbook for anybody,
whether it's quick or slow, whetherit's all the emotions are just some of

(19:55):
the emotions. I think one ofthe things I wanted to normalize is that
grieving looks different for everyone, andI've heard that more frequently lately than I
used to. But I've even heardpeople be like, well, the seven
stages of grieving, Like that's notset. You can go back, you
can. I can tell you there'sthings in my life I haven't grieved in

(20:17):
over twenty years, and I'm justnow starting to grieve it. But the
big, I think important point hereis like you need to allow yourself to
grieve in the way you need togree. Yes, And that doesn't just
mean death, that also means relationships, that also means any kind of loss.

(20:38):
I was just giving someone that advicethere, like I had this six
year relationship and I just don't knowwhat to do, and I was like,
allow yourself to grieve, you know, therapists say this all the time.
But also like when it comes todeath or losing anything, like you
have to figure out what grief feelslike for you. I agree, And

(21:00):
I think one thing that I learnedso in twenty twenty one, I lost
my grandfather to COVID and it wassuper unexpected. I completely shattered my family.
My family has never been the same, and I stay strong for the
family throughout that. Right, LikeI'm the person calling I see you asking
all the medical questions going through allthe medicine, asking if he got to

(21:22):
syalysis, you know, where's thisventilator, what's the percentage of oxygen today?
Then I'm sending the family Facebook groupchat to let everyone know what's going
on. And then ultimately when hepassed, I was down there in West
Virginia, so I'm calling everyone,like, you get down here to the
hospital now right. We don't knowif he's gonna make it. And I
never really like allow myself to sitin that grief. I just kept going.

(21:45):
And there were ways where I decided, like I'm going to honor his
memory, like got his face tattooedon my arm. I started a pad
rescue. He called him my pawboss, a poor posse pet rescue to
little things like that where I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna honor
his name. I want to keepit going. But when it came to
my dog, I was like,man, that affected me, like not

(22:06):
really grieving a death of someone thatI loved so dearly, It definitely affected
me and started to transcend into boutsof anger and periods of depression. And
you know me, I will isolatelike a mother, like I isolated and
then I will just like find agoal and like relentlessly chase it. So
that was me buying my house,right, and I just went crazy,

(22:30):
isolated away from everyone, chased thebag, as the young folks say,
so that I can buy my house. And I bought my house and followed
twenty twenty two. So when itcame to my dog dying, I probably
was in denial, Like I wasin the point where not quite denial.
I didn't want to focus on thefact that he was probably dying. I

(22:51):
focused on like celebrating. Yeah,So like we sunbathed in the backyard all
the time, right, Like wesnuggle, We went for walks like it
was amazing. So when it wasassigned for him to pass, I was
like, you know what, I'mjust going to allow myself to cry.
Like a matter of fact, haveyou ever seen me cry before? I
felt like when you came over thatday before the day that I put him

(23:11):
down, I was like a hotmess. I was like, is this
the first time that I've like brokedown crying like this? Was it?
Probably? Oh my goodness? BecauseI mean maybe over the phone you and
I have cried, But I thinkboth of us are similar that we're navigating
expressing our emotions with her friends andpeople we trust, and I think that's

(23:34):
a good call out. With degrievingprocesses, you have to find your support
system, and that's not going tobe the same for everyone. That's not
always family. Sometimes that's friends,Sometimes that's your therapist, right, it's
the port group exactly, people whounderstand, you know. I know veterans
get a lot of fulfillment of talkingwith other veterans and expressing their feelings because

(23:57):
you know they understand what they beenthrough absolutely. But I think, you
know, I've been talking about mentalhealth a lot on this podcast. Like
one thing I realized that I wasn'tdoing most of my life was expressing my
emotions around others. And humans aresocial creatures and we thrive on community and

(24:18):
that means expressing and feeling emotions withothers and that's what helps us process.
And doing that in solitude only goesso far. And that's why sometimes grief
can be even more painful. Wasthat if we're constantly in isolation, you
need your alone time. But ifyou're constantly in isolation and never finding space
to process with others, it's goingto make it really, really hard.

(24:41):
For you to get, you know, navigate through the emotions. And it's
not that the other person's going tojust tell you, oh, get over
it or you're fine, or it'llbe okay. Yes, No, it's
not that right. It's just makingspace. And I'm going to explain this
for a second, because this pissesme off sometimes when therapists say it,

(25:02):
because I didn't understand it, Likewhat the hell does making space mean?
They're like, I'm making space foryou, and I'm like, what the
hell does I mean? Making spacemeans that you're just being with someone,
You're present with them, You're notworried about your own agenda, You're not
worried about what you're doing. I'mmaking space, for instance, for you

(25:23):
to have your feelings with me andbe accepted. That's what making spaces is
that I'm allowing you to be presentand I'm allowing you to have your emotions.
It's not about me that you havethat space to do that. And
I'm sure some therapists will yell atme, and so I didn't explain it
properly, but like that's how Iinterpreted it, and making that space for

(25:44):
friends is important. Is sometimes yourfriends just need you to be there,
like the Netflix and chill of friends. Not dating, I know, because
there's other accommodations, but the Netflixand Chill of Friends is like you're just
sitting with your friends, being therefor each other. And I know my
roommate I was sad about a breakupand she just sat in the living room

(26:07):
with me, watched movies and wouldhand me a bowl of ice cream while
I was wearing my comfy hoodie.But when you're grieving sometimes that's what you
need. Maybe that's what making spacesfor you. It's not the same for
everybody, but having that space tojust be is so important. Yeah,
no, I agree. I usuallycall it a holding space holding, but
I define it as being intentionally presentin whatever way that that looks like.

(26:37):
Does that mean that you want meto make you laugh? Does that mean
that you want me to cry withyou? Does that mean you want me
to hop in a car and goslash it's tired? Okay, girl,
up down, I'm just wait.But just holding that space. However,
someone needs that space held and puttingeverything else to the side, like you
know, my schedule, like Iam busy as heck these days. But

(27:00):
if one of my friends call meand they're like, like, my one
of my best friends. She actuallya lot of my friends, but this
is one. She has kids andone is young. You know if that
one about to turn to wish orjust turn to age. And sometimes I'll
just ask her like is everything okay? What do you need? And she'll

(27:21):
be like, if you could justcome over and sit with him so I
can take a nap? Yep,right, So in grief, I think
it's the same. Sometimes you justwant someone to sit there. Maybe why
you take a nap, or youwant someone to eat a meal with because
you haven't had an appetite and maybethat's going to help you get some food
down. So I agree, Ithink holding space is important. Yeah,
thank you for using another term thatdoesn't sound like so much work, because

(27:44):
making spaces don't gonna give my spaceingredients gets out the measuring tools I catch
just this little beater be thanks,make that space, whipping it up with
that space we are importing. Weare not grammatically correct all the time on

(28:07):
this podcast, just FYI, MM sure right. And one of my
listeners is my former middle school teachers, so oh gosh, she didn't be
sending you a message like Alec,the podcast was great, but here's some
notes from your third grade study up. Oh god, but no, I

(28:32):
think getting back on track, makingsure that you identify those people in your
life that are able to provide youwith adequate support and important. And sometimes
it's not easy because sometimes you're justclouded by the grief or by the depression
or by the surprise of it alland not knowing how to process it.

(28:53):
Because I think that's something that's nottextbook, right, like just the processing
of it and not allow and getto feel like this earth shattering event,
which I mean to me, itwas an earth shattering event, But I
think that's critically important. And Ifeel like what death does for me because
to your point, my family forthe most part was always pretty young,

(29:15):
with my great grandmother's still living.She's ninety six. I saw her last
weekend. It was so cute.And I just started having people passed in
my family like in the last fiveyears that I'm like incredibly close to you.
Right, Yeah, they have beenlike those distant family members. But
it makes me reevaluate life, rightlike, it helps me remember that time

(29:36):
is precious, that we all havean end date, that I don't have
time to sit around and deal withanybody's bs. Right, If you're not
contributing to my peace, my happiness, my success, you have to go.
So it definitely has a bit ofan impact in the sense that it
makes me reevaluate my life the waythat I'm living. Right, Am I
doing things that I need to bedoing to make sure that I'm going to

(29:56):
at least live until tomorrow. SoI think that's been a part of grief
for me, is like, Okay, well, these people that I love
that are close to me are gone. How do I live like my best
life to my maximum potential and honorthem now that they're no longer here?
Right? I like that you saidthat because I was just having a conversation

(30:21):
with someone sitting in a car.I think I've had this conversation a couple
of times now, So I said, a couple of people my age died
unexpectedly. But also I have alot of friends in their seventies because I
volunteered with the Red Cross. Ihave friends of all generations, and I

(30:41):
have to face the reality that I'mgoing to go through a phase where I'm
going to lose a lot of peoplethat are close to me at a relatively
young age for myself, but alot of them are going to when you're
old, or you kind of gothrough this stage of life because you expect

(31:03):
it, because you're in that olderstage of life where you start losing a
lot of friends and that's a lotof grief. And there's somebody else I'll
be talking to on this podcast aboutthat who's a little bit older with a
different perspective. But as a thirtythree year old, I'm going to go
through that with some folks that areolder, and I'm going to lose a
lot of friends at a relatively youngage because they're all in their seventies,

(31:26):
and I'm going to have this waveof people I'm going to lose, and
then I'm going to go through itagain with this next wave of my older
friends, and then I'm going togo through it when i'm that age,
and it's going to be a lotof grief and death and moving on with
life. But that perspective of honoringthe memory, I think is super important

(31:48):
because as we navigate life and weknow that death is part of it,
I can't be stuck constantly in astate of grief in the sense of like
just sadness and anger. I needto find ways to honor them and the
impact they had on my life andcelebrate that. And one thing that I've

(32:10):
learned volunteering with the Red Cross andwith folks that are several generations older than
me, is there's this perception whenwe're in high school that you just like
graduate, you go through life,you get married, by a house,
have kids, have a single career, and you're done. And I was

(32:30):
taught or learned through volunteering with thesefolks that you can have multiple careers,
multiple lives, multiple everything. It'snot linear, and I think that's where
appreciating and honoring people's memory is important. As you know you're going to go
through these phases, these ups anddowns, and that's the same with grief

(32:52):
is you might go through these upsand downs where you're grieving someone or something
more or less than you were before, but you have to hold space for
yourself to honor those people. Andthat's going to look different depending on your
relationship with them. M No,I absolutely agree. I don't think I

(33:13):
have anything to add to that.Honestly, I think you hit it right
on the nail. I know,I think I share with you that one
of the it's a philosophy a quote, I don't know what you want to
call a nice sing somewhere maybe withinlike the last year, honestly, and
it talked about why grief is soheavy, and it said, you know,
grief is essentially just all that pentup love that you didn't get to

(33:34):
give that person. And I stayedin the back of my mind. So
I always think, like, Okay, sometimes that pent up love is gonna
come out as tears or you know, maybe a little depression, whatever the
case may be, because I missedthis person so much. Like I'm washing
dishes and I saw the syringe Iwas putting the chicken just start breaking down

(33:59):
car and they had a little waterleft, and these like I've never joining
that water girl to evaporated. Iwas his mother. Earth took that from
you, that water forever. Butthen on the flip side, I think
of like, Okay, well,if grief ish just saw this pent up
love, how can I still usethat love and moving forward in my life

(34:23):
right, whether it's honoring them,whether it's being present for myself, whether
it's doing a good de volunteering right, helping someone else. So I think
that that that's important for me.Like I keep thinking, I'm from West
Virginia, and I'm like, atsome point, I'm going to go to
my hometown and I'm going to namea road, a street, avenue,

(34:46):
I don't care what it is aftermy grandfather. I'm going to open a
family restaurant or something in his name. Like, I'm just keep it going,
Like, as far as I'm concerned, everybody's going to remember Mr Thomas
forever and forever. Yeah, youknow, your eyes are tearing up a
little bit. Yeah, but it'sgood to I feel like having this conversation

(35:12):
as a way of honoring your papa, right, you know. I think
honoring the memory of your pet oryour loved one could look like anything from
you know, having pictures or tattoosto continuing to live your life. I
think one common theme that you canfind a lot of places and hear from

(35:36):
a lot of people is the thingsthat people regret when they're on their deathbed
or typically the things they didn't do. And a lot of times, I
know it's cliche, people say,well so and so who passed away would
want you to continue to live yourlife because those who pass on from this
existence. I can't imagine in anygood mannered way that they would want you

(35:59):
to suffer and constantly they want youto be sad. We're all going to
be sad, that's okay, butnot constantly trudging through life and sadness and
just anger and not being happy andproductive. And again like, it's okay
if that comes in wave, it'sokay. If you need to take a

(36:21):
lot of time at first to reallyprocess that, it's okay. If you
feel a mixed emotion. I youknow, relationships are not black and white,
They're a spectrum. My therapist wouldprobably tell me to remind myself of
that every day. Note to Alexre listen to this podcast every time.

(36:44):
But within that is like I thinkyou also hit the nail on the head
there too, with like making andholding that space for yourself throughout that process
too, and giving yourself a grace. And you know you don't necessarily need
to constantly honor them every day oryou failed. Right, it's not Moulan

(37:06):
and you're not gonna, you know, lose to the hunt. But you
know, for me, like honoringBetsy and Tooni is I still share their
funny memories and you know, Ihave a lot of friends who liked them
that didn't really like cats, becausethey were just such cool cats. And
I have their ashes in the livingroom. But I continue to adopt cats,

(37:27):
and they're quirky in their own manner, and it took them a couple
of years to come out of theirshow, but now they are, and
they're not the same as Betsy andToni, and I thankfully moved on from
trying to compare them to Bitsy Atoni, and I cherish them for, you
know, the pets they are andthe personalities now. But that doesn't mean
I forgot about Bitsier Tony. Ijust simply look back at the memories and

(37:50):
it makes me smile now, andyeah, it makes me a little slad
sad, slad sad. Clearly Iwas crying earlier on this podcast. But
that's how I honor them. IsI respect that I adopted other cats and
gave them a loving home, andthey, you know, make my life
a little bit more colorful. Ifyou live in my neighborhood, you just

(38:14):
hear me hollering, Pompkin, I'mnot crossing the street, get your ass
back here, and ironically he does. He's very smart, but you know,
honoring the memory of one you lostis important to navigate and that might
change over time to that doesn't meanyou have to constantly wallow in that grief

(38:37):
either, I agree. And youknow how like there's that same like laughter
is good for the soul, likedon't won't be afraid to put some laughter
in there. Like there was apoint where I was sitting down with one
of my friends and I was justthinking about all the funny moments where like,
for example, there was this timewhere I was getting ready, you
know, I'm always thow some typeof party. I was here ready to

(38:59):
throw some party. I don't rememberwhat it was, and I had a
bunch of like bad chips, andlike I had a maybe I don't know,
twenty pack of like little individual sizeflame of hot Cheetos. Right they
were sitting on the dang shelf likeI mean, it wasn't even like where
the dog could get them. Somehowthis mofo got onto the shelf at ate

(39:22):
all twenty packs of those damn playmot of course it was play, not
normal. And when I came home, like I'm pissed because I'm like,
oh my god, you know,no I have any cheers bah blah blah.
But then I'm like, oh,but when you go to use the
bathroom, letting yo yo, buddy. And so just being able to like

(39:44):
look back or laugh at those moments, I think it's great, Like laughter
uplifts you no matter how much youwanted to or not. And then sometimes
even just like talking to my poppall and I'll be like, and you
saw me fight on them steps,I'm still clum to eat, like so
just finding ways to still like laughand have like a little bit of joy.

(40:05):
Or I'll think about like my Papaused to hug me and he would
like when it's like beer, hewould shave his beard off when you know
when it grows back is stubbily.Yeah, he'd be like, I'm gonna
getch you with my whiskers. Thelittle stuff like that. I'm just like,
what your whiskers look like? Abeer laughters like the anti sadness and

(40:30):
grief in a way like it notthat it takes it away, but it
helps process and make you whole.And I'm the queen of dumb jokes and
I'm sure one day I'm gonna getkicked for them. But you know,

(40:51):
I think it's that laughter and joythat makes the grief and sadness worth it,
and vice versa, like, wecan't have that happiness and goodness in
life if we don't also know thoselows and those bad points either. And
I can say that from a positionright now because I'm not in either of
those bad points. But when you'rein a bad point, it's hard to

(41:13):
remember that. Or vice versa,You're like, I feel great. Why
you know, I don't want tofeel bad, but you know that's what
makes you appreciate it more. Yeah, absolutely, you know. I always
love to ask a good question inthere. So now that we've both been
through deaths of our beloved, nearand dear animals, that I don't care
when rocos my saying, you can'ttell me any different now when we still

(41:37):
own pets, right like I havea dog now, I'm probably gonna adopt
another dog within the next month.Is there anything that you would do differently
thinking about the fact that at somepoint it's gonna happen again, or did
you just go with the flow?So I did say this earlier the podcast,
but I lost Tony a year laterto the same lung cancer I lost

(42:00):
Bitsy. And before that, Ilost a little tiny barncat that I had
less than six months named Tiny.What about Tiny? She was literally the
world's craziest, most cuddly cat.She was like supposedly too. She fit
in the palm of your hand andknew how to jump on your shoulder and
she constantly would sneeze and it wasgross. But she was just so loving

(42:22):
to everybody. And you know,I lost her and I lost Tony,
and I didn't invest as much moneyin Tiny as I did Tony, and
even with Tony, like it waseasier decision to make. And this is
where I was kind of going withit, is that quality of life chart
was so important for me, andI couldn't make that decision so much faster

(42:45):
because I could. I knew thaton the other side of the suffering,
it doesn't the suffering doesn't get better, right, So when Tiny was struggling
and her belly was like puffed up, you know, she just all of
a sudden wasn't feeling well, andthey're like, we can't explain it,

(43:06):
but she's probably going to die.And I was like, just, you
know, put her down. Andit was easy in that moment to make
that decision. And Tony was alittle bit more difficult because we didn't know
immediately as cancer. But we foundout quicker because we knew Bitsy had went
through the cancer and I mentioned itto the vet and they're like, oh,
yeah, this is cancer. AndI did choose to do a crazy

(43:27):
procedure because I wanted some time withhim at home, and it was very
selfish of me, But Tony's crazyass beared with it. Then I'll say
what it is here, and ifany veterinarians are listening to this, they're
going to possibly be appalled. Butwe weren't sure what type of cancer he
had, and I was just losingmy mind because I didn't want to have

(43:52):
to put him down in the hospitallike I did Bitsy. I hadn't been
able to take him home, andI just was so torn up up about
that. And you know, they'relike, he can't breathe, there's fluid
in his lungs. Like they're like, we could potentially take out the one
lung that's really bad, but it'sonly a fifty to fifty chance he lives.

(44:14):
And if it's a certain type ofcancer that could be treated, he
may survive. But you know,he could die on the table, but
it would give you a few daysat home maybe, you know, if
if that's something that's important to you. And I was like, well,
let's try it just in case,you know that just in case it's that
he's not ready to go or andthat again, that's where this to me.

(44:35):
I said, it's selfish because theeasier thing on him and his body
would have been to let him passone in that moment. But his ass
went through that surgery where they removedone of his lungs and he made it
through short did and oh god,I'm getting emotional again. And the whole

(45:00):
point of that was so I couldtake him home have some more quality time.
Yeah. Yeah, And the realityis it wasn't really great quality time
because he didn't want to eat orwhatever. But he slept in my bed
with me one night. Yeah,and it just was so meaningful because he
was like my buddy, and likejust having him in bed with me one

(45:23):
night, and they told me everythingto look for, and yeah, you
know, the second night, Ithink he was there, like he just
seemed like he's having trouble breathing,and I, I, it's the middle
of the night. And I wasjust taking him to osud him so they
could put him out of his misery. Like I knew there was nothing to
save him, But it was easyto make that decision because I knew,

(45:46):
I just knew his quality of lifewasn't there. Yeah, Like that wouldn't
have been as easy had I notgone through it with bits you and tiny
And you know, even in thatmoment, like a still a little bit
selfish about it because you never,like as much as we expect death,
we don't expect it and it's stillhard no matter how many times you go

(46:10):
through it, right, Yeah,So to answer your question, it's just
like that is one thing, especiallyfrom a pet perspective, that has been
easier, is to be more realisticabout quality of life to allow them to
like pass on peacefully. And Ithink that's something that I really admired about
you, was that you were ableto get the vet just to come to

(46:31):
the house. That's a less stressand drama for you know, the doggo
and you know, it just makesit so much easier. Yeah, I
agree, But you know what Iwill say, I was more empowered and
comfortable navigating the situation because I watchedyou so like VIZZI was like, I

(46:53):
was not terrifying, traumatizing for metoo, because I was like, oh
my got much like I don't knowwhat to do, just gonna come a
whole space for you, right,And then the fact that you were like,
hey, I wanted Tony to know, and like, those were things
that I hadn't really thought about becausemy dogs, you know, they were
young, and they were healthy.They were doing their thing, and so
when it came time for rocco,I was like, Okay, I'm gonna

(47:15):
pay. And it was like anice junk of change, but I'm like,
I'm going to pay to have theservices called Lap of Love. They
were fantastic that the gentleman that cameout to my house's name was Jeremy.
Shout out to Jeremy, because Jeremywas the motherfucking bomb. He was crying
too. I was like, youknow, you know, my son,
but just having him come out,even on my beagle tried to attack him.

(47:37):
My bige knew on what's happened tobe was not with it. He's
a little ghetto you know, I'mjust playing, but like, yeah,
I had to put my begel inthe cage for a little bit because he
just like he literally laid in betweenI was holding Rocke on my lap.
He laid in between us and theevent and was growling at him, and
I was like, it's gonna slidehim into the cage. Pet snow.
Yeah, just being able to holdhim, keep him of his places of

(48:00):
comfort right and have sickle to thecold hospital around people that he didn't know.
And even after he administered the youthin Asia, he was like,
take as much time as you wantwith him. So I girl sat there
with him for maybe like thirty moreminutes, and then when he came back
in, he put him like thislittle picnic back. It's not funny,
but it was like this little picnicbasket looking a thing. Then he like

(48:22):
tucked them in and then they broughthis ashes to my door. Then,
yeah, they I wouldn't have doneit any different, but I wouldn't have
thought to do that if I hadn'thave been there when you were going through
what you went through with Bitsy Antony. Yeah. Yeah, that was offered
to me at the time, andI just couldn't afford it because it does
cost a little bit more to havesomebody come out and I think That's why

(48:43):
planning if you can or you know, having emergency funds is hopeful, so
it makes some of the decisions easier. You know, I was, you
know, I was broke at thetime, both when Bitsy and Tony got
ill, and you know, Ihad to do it go fund me and
it was embarrassing. But I lovethem so much, willing to put my
pride aside, and it's just hard. It's just hard. I do have

(49:06):
a question for you, though,I know it was incredibly difficult for you
to like navigate losing your poppa,and you had mentioned earlier that you had
to be the one to kind ofmake the phone calls and make the decisions.
And I think are pretty that's apretty common theme for a lot of
people I know, is they hadyou know, they're that person who takes
care of the things. But itmakes me wonder, you know, how

(49:29):
did that affect the grieving process foryou when you had to be in the
zone while it was all happening andfocused on getting things done. You know,
what did grieving look like for you? Honestly, I feel like it
just didn't It didn't look like muchlike I just pushed it to the back
of my mind and stay busy soI didn't have to think about it.

(49:53):
And so that's why I wanted tomake sure I did things differently with my
dog, because there was never atime where like I just called my friends
and said, hey, I'm feelingdown, come over and spend time with
me. Right, I just waslike, all right, I'm gonna take
this new job or make more money. Yeah, I'm gonna you know,

(50:14):
at the time, I was atthe very end of my Chapter thirteen bankruptcy.
I'm like, I'm gonna pay thisbankruptcy off early so I can buy
a house. And I just like, I allow myself to suppress it.
And it was a it was amajor event in my life, but I
just suppressed it. I didn't grieve. Still to this day, I talked
about it in therapy a little bit, and I'm like, well, do

(50:34):
I like back date my grief?How do I make sure? Now that's
called avoidance, Yeah, exactly,Yes, that was extremely avoidant, but
just making sure that I'm like talkingabout it, that I'm allowing myself to
like cry, because you know me, I'm a big like I'm gonna remember
you personally. So I got theportrait in my house. I've got like
my whole Memora value of his.I've got the tattoo, but just like

(50:58):
sitting in the motion and just likeallowing it to come out. I don't
know that I fully have done thatyet, Honestly, I would agree with
you. Yeah, yeah, AndI think that's important to remember because I've
been through some pretty tough life eventswith my family, like my mom's almost

(51:20):
died a handful of times, andthat is its own engraving process and of
itself. But I was so hyperfocused on handling the situation that I didn't
really allow myself that space de grieveor even talk about it much because I
just did the same thing you werejust talking about as I avoided it and
I just dealt with it. Andhere I am the years later, I'm
like, I'm still pissed about certainthings, not because my mom was sick,

(51:44):
but because of how I handled thingsand just I didn't make space for
myself and like I got burnt out, and you know, it caused to
like this dominant effect because I didn'tproperly take care of myself and hold that
space. Yeah, And I thinkif anybody takes in thing from this episode,
today is like I hope that it'sunderstanding how important, regardless of the

(52:07):
type of loss, whether it's adeath or somebody exiting your life or a
pet, that you can maybe takethe little nugget that like feeling your emotions,
processing your emotions, and allowing yourselfspace to grieve is so so important
because otherwise you kind of can getstuck and it shows up in other places

(52:30):
and in other ways you don't quiteexpect. And you know, I have
some folks that I will bring onhere and we'll talk about that a little
bit more. But you know,I think it's just super important to talk
about grief and talk about how you'refeeling and to your point, hold that
space for your friends or yourself.Even to your point, you know,

(52:52):
you're still trying to work on yourpapa, and that was before Rocko died,
your your dog. Oh, andyou know, I feel like you're
doing a really great job processing likeRocco, And you know, you had
your friends come over and say they'regoodbyes, and that was like a way
for you to honor his memory,and that was amazing. You know,
I felt like you were able tobe in a healthy place when Rocco passed

(53:15):
to do that, but you knowto your not calling it back dating grief,
but you know like you have tosometimes go back and you're going through
that, I'm doing a little waveside. They got to do the flow.
You know that sometimes that it's goingto ebb and flow that you want
to need to feel some of thoseemotions for those you've lost. I think
that if I, if I wasto put my major takeaways together for this,

(53:39):
it would be be kind to yourself, be realistic. Don't be afraid
to be uncomfortable, because there's discomfortin a lot of this, a lot
of navigating the grief, a lotof understanding what you feel, a lot
of understanding who you can trust tobe there for you, who you can

(53:59):
be vulnerable in front. Right,So don't be afraid to be uncomfortable and
like say and do some things outloud, right, Like I had to
just start saying to people like I'msad today, I'm upset today, I
feel like I don't want to talkto anyone today. So I'm calling you
and talking to you, but Idon't want to talk to your ass either,

(54:21):
right, Like that honesty is soan important and I think A good
call out is you heard me likebreak down and cry on this podcast.
But girl, that's what maybe thefourth or fifth time you've seen me crying.
It's not a lot. And thereason is because I'm doing the work,
yes, and I'm willing to doit on a podcast because right now

(54:43):
there's only me cast in a microphoneand I trust casts. But like,
I've had such a hard time expressingemotions in front of others, and the
reason I'm allowing myself to do thatin this public manner is because I want
it to normalize that it's okay tohave and like it's okay to show others
you have emotions to your point,and like sometimes that's just being honest and

(55:07):
verbalizing. Like a good friend ofmine, Heather, the other night,
was like, you know, I'mreally not feeling it. I'm really stressed
out and I just can't show uptoday and be the in the best mood.
And I was like, I don'tneed you to be a certain way,
show up any way you want.I'm your friend. Like if you
want to be pissy and all pissedoff, that doesn't matter, Like just

(55:28):
be what you need to be.And I think that's important with what you
were just saying is like being honest, like to your point, like I
don't want to talk to anyone,but I'm choosing to talk to you,
and I don't even want to talkto you, Like I wasn't offended as
a friend if you said that tome. Yeah, you know I understood
that meant like, hey, youtrust me and I need to be here

(55:49):
for you. Yeah, And beingthat person for your both yourself and others,
I think is important and just recognizingthat in the moment and sometimes that
honesty, as hard as hell itis, and sometimes your testimony can be
healing for other people, right,like just allowing others to see a more

(56:09):
vulnerable side of you that they canconnect with. And maybe it inspires three
people, maybe it inspires thirty,maybe it inspires three thousand. But I
do find that like someone else's testimonycan be like a motivator. It can
be that light bulb that clicks inthe back of your head. So I
applaud you for just starting to havethese difficult conversations that people don't talk about

(56:32):
on a day to day basis andjust sharing your testimony because in a lot
of this it's you talking about yourexperiences, your life, right, and
many of us. You know,I'm super private. I'll hardly talk about
anything. And so people you knowthat are like me, they're not doing
this all the time. It's meand my journal and that's the only person
that knows anything. Yeah, AndI have a lot of respect for you

(56:57):
for also being authentic and vulnerable.And we said it a couple of times
like, oh, I've never donethis, right, we're navigating this together.
I agree, And there's been therewill be many more. I have
a lot more folks lined up thatare sharing their journey for maybe the first
time or the one hundredth time onthis podcast. And I to your point

(57:20):
that testimony is important because I thinkthat when you said say it out loud,
like, say it out loud makesit more real. I know,
when I'm grieving or struggling with emotionsor even loving myself, saying outside I
love myself is so freaking hard,it's crazy, right, Yes, or
you know any a lot of things, And I think a lot of finding

(57:42):
space for yourself to share your journeyand also understand that others are going through
it too, is important, Likethat's part of the human experience. So
with that being said, my thoughtsare out to a few people today.
There's a lot going on. Itseems like I'm a firm believer in mother

(58:07):
Nature has its way and there's seasonsfor a reason, and there's some seasons
going on for a lot of peoplein my life right now that involve death
right now. Yeah, you sendit everyone, Love, comfort, clarity,
resilient, perseverance and motivation. Absolutely. And one last thing I'd say

(58:32):
with that is always come with empathywhen you can find the energy to do
so, and always offer a hug. There is so so much to be
said. You know, ask forconsent, And I did that today with
a colleague who I know know virtuallyis like can I give you hug?
And they're like absolutely, But especiallysomebody who's grieving, you know, if

(58:53):
if you have that rapport with them, or you feel the urge to ask
for consent and offer a hug,because hugs can be so incredibly meaningful.
Yeah, I know you and Ihad a moment where you are just like
rage cleaning, and I just likeI'm like can I hug you? And
You're like yeah. So we juststood there and held each other and like

(59:15):
that was so meaningful for me andfelt good for me too, like to
be able to help you and justhugs you know where social creatures just feel
good, like it kicks up oneof those healthy things in your head.
That was perfect because I don't knowthat I could have kept cleaning the counter
and you might have liked cleaned ranwell. With that being said, I

(59:37):
think we'll end on that lighter note. A few more episodes are coming up,
but they're coming up in maybe alittle bit different order than I anticipated.
I have some stuff recorded, butI want to release it in a
timely manner that allows some people somespace. So I'll be releasing this episode
shortlease. Yeah if you ask youguys again, and that's all for today.

(01:00:01):
Thank you for joining us for episodethree. It's been great. This
has been Alex and Kay. Wego out there and normalize it.