4. Neurodiverg...what?

Alex & Ellie discuss neurodivergence, what it is, common ways it shows up in everyday life, and the difficulties of adult ADHD. 

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Good morning. This is It's sensitivewith Alex and Ellie and we're here to
taco talk Taco. It's Monday,not Tuesday. Talk about neuro divergence.
Ellie is my roommate and friend,and she has a lot of experience with
neurodivergence. Just as a general kindof definition definition, neurodivergent is a non

(00:40):
medical term that describes people whose brainsdevelop or work differently for some reason.
So this could be a person hasdifferent strengths and struggles from people whose brains
developer work more typically, which iscalled neurotypical. And for some people who
are neuro divergent, they may havemet conditions. And that's the Cleveland Clinic

(01:03):
definition. Most people probably know neurodivergence. It's such a hard word to
say, sorry, as like osism, autism and ADHD and similar conditions where

(01:23):
your brain just works differently. Todaywe're going to talk about ADHD, and
Ellie has personal experience with them.I personally have ADHD, and I think
Ellie's perspective is super unique because sheis an adult and she got diagnosed as
an adult with ADHD. Right,Yeah, that's correct. And I think

(01:47):
as we're getting more into more researchand there's more we loving. I think
the cats in a Box that yeah, sorry, guys, this is an
authentic podcast, which means we're laughingabout cats and boxes. All right,

(02:08):
I apologize. You can't interrupt mythought process because the thought just disappears.
Akay having ADHD. But yeah,I think as more research comes out and
there's more talk about ADHD in adults, more people get diagnosed. And that's
how I personally became aware that Ihad ADHD and got diagnosed, and it

(02:37):
changed my life. And I thinkfor me personally, it is very important
to talk about it and to makepeople aware that sometimes their struggles are not
because they are lazy or scatter brainor they're not good enough, but it's
it's because their brains just work differently. And and I think this is something

(03:04):
that I tried to talk to parentsas well. I think sometimes they're afraid
of that label, but that labelis what really helped me get to know
myself and really changed my life forthe better, really made me understand that
it wasn't me, that that therewas something wrong with but I just wasn't

(03:30):
fitting into that square hole of corporateAmerica. In other places, Yeah,
I think that's a great call outbecause we were joking earlier with brains,
like, there's a lot of piecesof society that are were round pegs or
triangle pegs getting shoved into square hole. That is everybody else, whether that's

(03:53):
neurotypical, whether that's remote work andworking in office, whether whatever that may
be. I think there's been moreattention on it lately because of COVID nineteen
and how our workforce changed drastically.But I do think not only neurodivergence,
but mental health was a little bitmolo the spotlight because with everybody being at

(04:16):
home, we had to really assesswho we are as people and how we
work. Right. So, howlong ago would you say you were officially
diagnosed with ADHD About two two anda half years ago. It was during
pandemic, and pandemic is what mademe realize this was happening. Actually,

(04:41):
tik Tak was what made me realizeI had or what made me want to
explore this. I got, youknow, as everybody else during pandemic.
I got on tiktak and I startedseeing adult ADHD videos and they really fit
everything. Thing really fit for theirfirst time. Because I've previously been diagnosed

(05:04):
with anxiety and depression. One thingto understand about ADHD is that it has
lots of commormities, and especially forundiagnosed adults, we often struggle to the
point of developing anxiety and struggling withdepression. And but I I those things

(05:25):
never fully explain to what I wasexperiencing. And I remember this one time
I was at the therapist's office andI was having this meltdown, and looking
back, it was a very typicaljust just you know, overwhelmed neurodivergent person
meltdown. And I remember looking athis face and he had this look of

(05:46):
concern on his face. And Iwill never forget, you know, you
know, concerning a therapist is adifferent kind of Wow, this is this
bad alie. But looking back now, I mean every like looking at those
videos, like everything fit, everythingwas like, yeah, this is me.
So I went to my primary careand I said, hey, I

(06:08):
want to go talk to somebody.Took me a really long time and lots
of money to find somebody who woulddiagnose an adult. It was three sessions.
It was thirteen hundred dollars and outof pockets, no insurance, and
it was worth every penny, honestly, because once I had the concrete DS,

(06:31):
then as a as a true ADHDperson that I dived into dove into
research and I tried to read booksand find out everything there was any research
there was about being an adult withADHD and implemented in my life, and
wow, it all of a sudden, lots of things made sense. Yeah,

(06:56):
you know, I'm curious about that, especially well, first of all,
there's a joke that goes around thatI get along with a lot of
adhders and I keep learning that myfriends or people I've dated have ADHD.
And one of my friends is actuallylike, are you sure you don't have
ADHD? Because you understand people withADHD way too well. But with that

(07:18):
being said, I think I amcurious. I know a lot because of
my friends, but not everybody listeningto the podcast being not So I'm kind
of curious what was life like beforemedication and what was life after medication or
the diagnosis in general, maybe likewhat were your thought processes, what was

(07:41):
difficult and what became easier with medicationor you know, having that diagnosis.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I wantto say I for in my twenties I
used to always say I'd never takemedication, and my opinion changed on it
when I had to go an entieypersons and but getting an adderall feel different,

(08:05):
right, It's a controlled substance.It felt scary and I I completely
changed my opinion on it. Medicationis a tool. It's one of the
tools in your toolbox. It won'tfix everything, right, it won't.
You know, I don't take adderallin the morning, and magically I'm now
a neurotypical person. It it itallows me to exist in a neurotypical way

(08:31):
world and use other tools to thrive. It's so there are two main types
of of ADHD and and and mostpeople are a combination of two. But
it's it's the inattentive and hyperactive.Most people with inattentive type have harder time

(08:56):
getting diagnosed because I was never achild. I was bouncing off the or
adults that was just like bouncy andfull of energy. Everything happens in my
head, and so I was sufferingin silence for a very long time,
and I felt for lack of abetter world. Words crazy, you know

(09:18):
my thoughts. My brain is extremelybusy. I have multiple thoughts going on
at the same time, and thatmade it really hard to exist in places
where I was bored aka corporate America. My last job was for a big

(09:39):
corporation for lack of a better word, boring, So for me to have
to sit at the desk doing boringtasks while my brain was screaming seventeen different
things, it was extremely hard.Also, neurodivergent brain is not good at
prior time. So a neurotypical personwill hear all of the things going on

(10:05):
around them, but their brain willautomatically select the conversation they're having as the
priority, and everything else is sortof fading into background. Nor divergent brain
thinks everything is a priority, right, everything that I'm hearing around me.
If there's seven conversations, my brainis taking them all in and then I

(10:28):
have to focus harder on the conversationthat's going on, resulting in fatigue.
It's you know, when you haveto work that hard to have a conversation,
you often you're you're tired more quickly. So not only did I think,
oh my gosh, I can't payattention and I'm so scatterbrain, I

(10:50):
also thought I'm lazy because I wouldcome home and I would be exhausted,
and I I to call them mylittle meltdowns. But about every six months,
I would have a meltdown. Iwould literally have a taddler meltdown.
I remember working in a restaurant andone day it was just too much,

(11:11):
so I took a plate full offood and checked against the wall and walked
outside to the parking lot. AndI didn't understand why it was. It
would be it would be the pointwhere I could not control my nervous system.
Looking back, I realized it wasjust my nervous system was overstimulated and

(11:37):
so being diagnosed. Not only amI able to verbalize that and say to
somebody, I'm sorry we're having thisconversation, but there's too many other stimulis
going on around me. I'm payingattention. The reason I'm not looking at
you it is not because I'm notpaying attention. But I can either make
eye contact or I can I canlisten to a cand do but sure.

(12:01):
But also I'm able to listen tomy body and to feel when I'm getting
to that point of overstimulation, andI can say, okay, right now,
I need to go sit in myroom and calm down my nervous system
so I don't go into that overdrive. Yeah, and being aware of that

(12:22):
and having the tools to do somethingabout it, those two things alone drastically
change my life because now instead ofyou know, wondering why am I like
this? Why is this happening tome? Why can I not help it?
And trying to force through that,I can take a step back and
say, I know why I'm likethis, I know what is happening,

(12:45):
And instead of charging through sure withmy stubbornness, I can say I need
to take a step back. Absolutely. I think that really good summary,
and a couple things it out tome. First of all, chucking a
plate at a wall. I thinkwe've all wanted to do that, whether
neurotypical or neurodivergent. I don't recommendit, but sometimes you just have those

(13:09):
days. It's a funny story.But I do think what stood out to
me was the overstimulation. Right.I've been dealing with and we've talked about
mental health a lot in this podcast, post traumatic stress disorder and dealing with

(13:31):
emotions that I typically didn't deal within the past, and I get over
stimulated in different ways, and I'vehad to find what works for me to
kind of calm down, and it'sdifferent than what works for you. And
I've noticed living with you, youspend a lot of time in your room
and you're completely content with that.And I respect that and admire that that

(13:52):
you can recognize that in yourself andlike give yourself that space to calm down
and just chill out, because Ithink in today's world, or at least
in the American culture, we're bigon like busy, busy, busy,
go go go go performance in productivityone hundred percent of the time, and

(14:16):
that's just not how human bodies work. Right. I'm actually taking a neurocyche
class right now, and we werejust reading about the brain and nervous system
and stuff like that, and ournervous system isn't built to be engaged twenty
four to seven, whether that's youknow, electronic devices or work or whatever.

(14:37):
But when you're neuro divergent, youknow, how you get over stimulated
might be different than somebody who's neurotypical, right, And that's what I heard
from that. The other thing,too, I think is you call it
out kind of a little bit ago, that medication is a tool in your
toolbox and not the only thing thatyou use to help manage your ADHD.

(15:03):
And it sounds like one of yourtools is kind of relaxing your nervous system
and finding space for yourself. Wouldyou say that's accurate? Absolutely? Yeah.
I think especially for I mean foranybody, right, but especially for
a new divergent people. Our nervoussystem tends to go into overdrive and there

(15:24):
are things we can do to calmit down. Sure, and it is
important to do that because then meltdownsare not exact non existent or much much
rare than there were previously. Andalso it just in general, you don't

(15:46):
you shouldn't live in that state ofnervous system overdrive. Sure, so taking
that time to sit in a cornerand you know, take a breath is
really important. I'm a first generationimmigrant. The bootstrap culture was definitely something

(16:08):
I was really into in my twentiesand I still am a little bit of
a you know, I like tobe busy, I like to do stuff.
I pride myself on my work,but at the same time I understand
that for me to give to livemy life the way I want to live
it, and to be able togive my one hundred percent. At work,

(16:30):
I have to sometimes go in myroom and like wrap myself in blanket
and listen to my podcast so Idon't hear anything else. Like It's just
it's an important part of being ableto do my job. I work with
people every day and I like tobe on I'm an animated person, and

(16:55):
for that to happen, I needto come home and sit in the corner
for a little bit. Sure.Yeah, you know. The other thing
I was thinking about is you mentionedCorporate America and I come from a background
with Corporate America as well. AndI was just talking with a friend this
past weekend about how there are programsfor like autism at work, and there's
a lot of I feel like,are a lot more programs that are there

(17:22):
to help people with autism or artisticbecause traditionally autistic people have had a hard
time just getting into the workforce ingeneral. And that's amazing and I'm so
happy to hear that, and I'mseeing people with autism like be in the
workplace and be able to work alongsideneurotypical people. But I do think ADHD

(17:47):
is one of those under highlighted neurodivergencesbecause I don't see ADHD at work programs
or even conversations around around like youknow how ADHD can be difficult in the
workplace, and I think you hadsaid you had said a phrase about it's

(18:08):
not a superpower, but it's not. It's a a disability. Yeah,
And and under the American Disability Act, ADHD is actually qualified as a disability
and you are able to get concessionstheoretically right everything, like according to law,
you can ask your employer to,you know, make a commandant accommendations

(18:33):
for your for ADHD. But Ithink it's it's hard. And I think
the one thing that that is,or that I at least perceive as a
stumbling block, is the fact thatwe're not talking about ADHD in adults with
ADHD quite enough, and for peoplewith inattentive type of ADHD. I don't

(19:00):
think many people will look at meand realize I have ADHD until I say
something, and that sometimes leads peopleto believe that nothing is wrong with you
and nothing I'm a big believer thatnothing is wrong with me. I just
sometimes need different things that neurotypical peopleneed, and that is okay. I

(19:25):
think the conversation about not every oneof your employees is the same, and
not every one of your employees needsthe same things should should be normalizing corporate
America. I think absolutely it's this, it's it's really is this dystopia where
we all should look and work anddo the same things. And even when

(19:48):
there are conversations about, you know, what can we do for our neurodivergent
coworkers, I think quite often itends there. It ends with that conversation,
and then it's back to or you'renot making an eye contact, you're
making too much eye contact? Whyyou know? Why are you fidgeting?
Why can you sit still? Whyyou know? And it's if, if,

(20:12):
if we're gonna have those conversations,that we need to understand that there
are changes that should be should bemade and there should I contact. If
I if I can go on thesoapbox, I contact is one of those
things that I, as a neurodivergentperson, struggled with, had always struggled

(20:33):
with, and will never understand,and neurotypical people, for some reason think
I contact this is the single mostimportant thing you can do in a conversation.
And I would like, really foranybody who's listening. Next time you're
talking to somebody who is not lookingat you but seems otherwise engaged, think

(20:55):
about why that might be. Becausequite often I come across p people who
are very turned off by that,and I have set to people I've worked
with before. I can either lookat you or I can listen to you.
I cannot do both, and itseems to completely catch them by surprise.

(21:18):
Because neurotypical people naturally know how mucheye contact to make. I don't,
and lots of us don't. It'snot always when people don't look at
you. It's not always malicious.When people do stuff differently than you do.
Try to keep them benefit of thedoubt. It's not because we don't

(21:40):
want to listen to you. It'snot because we're necessarily distracted. We're more
distracted when we're listening, and wealso have to think about, oh,
what is the right amount of eyecontact? Now? Am I looking at
them too much? Am I staringtoo intently? Am I not looking at
them enough? That is more distractingto us. Yeah, you're definitely not
that basilisk of hairry Potter, andwe're going to turn to stoolstone if we

(22:03):
look at you too much. Asa matter of fact, as you were
saying that, I noticed, literallyEllie and I are sitting across from a
table from each other, the microphonesbetween us, and Ellie's you know,
looking down because I can tell she'sfocusing because we both have headsets on that
we can kind of hear what's beingsaid through the microphone, and I for

(22:25):
me, it's very difficult. Butyou know, I'm like staring Ellie down
because I'm trying to focus on whatshe's saying. But in that same vein
like, I'm not offended that Ellie'snot looking at me because we're I understand,
like, when you're focusing, that'snot maybe something you can do.
And I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, because there's more than just that reason

(22:48):
why somebody may not be able tomake eye contact. I know, dealing
with PTSD. I've had a therapistI worked with who asked me to make
eye contact and it was incredibly meaningbecause I had a hard time doing that
just because it brought up a lotof weird and bad feelings for me,
and not because of her as theperson, but because of my past.

(23:11):
And so depending on somebody's vibe orwhat we're talking about eye contact can be
difficult and also important, right,you know, and then you start over
analyzing, like how much eye contactscomfortable? Am I staring them down?
Do they think I'm a weirdo?Absolutely? It? And I think as

(23:33):
a well, often nordk Rigian peopledo struggle with, you know, interpersonal
relationships and kind of understanding neurotypicals andunderstanding that we're often perceived being a little
too brash because we often say thingsdirectly and neurotypical people have a round the

(24:07):
by about way, sometimes out ofpoliteness to say things. And you know,
I have lived as a neurodivergent peoplein an neurootypical world for thirty seven
years, so I had quite afew years, you know, observing neurotypicals
up close, and lots of thetimes I can fake it. But sometimes,

(24:30):
even at thirty seven, I gettaken aback by somebody being offended by
what I said, and I haveto, you know, kind of go
back and say, oh, no, that's I'm sorry I did. That's
not what I meant. I meantexactly what I said, you just perceived
it through a neurotypical lens as beingtoo harsh. I just I didn't mean

(24:53):
it in a harsh way. Imeant did it the exact way I said
it? And so you know,on one hand, right, assuming the
best intent is I think always thebest policy. But the on the on
the other hand, as a neurodivergentpeople, we often have to kind of
study what the heck is it thatthe neurotypical people want from us or or

(25:18):
why you know. I remember,especially as a teenager, I always knew
I said something wrong when people's expressionchange. One of the things that ADHD
people I think are very good atis taking the temperature. I can walk
into a room and feel what thewhat the mood is, and I can
always tell when somebody's mood changes,and I can tell that it's because I

(25:42):
said something. I can't always tellwhy is it. So I can tell
that like, oops, that wasthe wrong thing to say, but I
often struggle with deciphering why was itthe wrong thing to say? And that's
also there's another thing that's really exhaustedin the workplace, right because then you

(26:04):
have to go talk to your bossand and you know, have to apologize
to your coworkers because you said somethingin a direct way and they perceived it
as an attack, and now you'renot even understanding why you're being punished.
You just know that people are mad, and so that's you know, that's
where lots of I think that's wherelots of neuro divergent people anxiety over social

(26:30):
interaction comes in. Sure. Yeah, I think that's a great call out
too, because thinking of other neurodivergentpeople, especially with autism, because autism
is a spectrum and can show upin many different ways, but a lot
of times it's very similar that autisticpeople struggle socially because they are not sure

(26:52):
what to say or don't know thesocial norms, and then they're having to
think and work through that and that'sreally difficult, right, And I think
that's where neuro divergence and being moreaccepting and normalizing than not everybody's the same,
right, and assuming positive intent.You know, yeah, this may

(27:15):
have offended me, but then think, you know why am I offended?
Was this meant in just a waythat was informative and not like a personal
attack, right? And I knowI've had several of those conversations in the
workplace, because, especially in corporateworkspaces, sometimes your entire ability to get

(27:37):
promoted is based on how others perceiveyou. I remember one time I was
trying to get like a exceeds expectationend of your rating, and I remember
my boss coming to me and saying, hey, you need to be careful
like what you're saying to people whenthey're trying to engage you in conversation.

(27:57):
And it was another manager that itwas a me and I just happened to
be busy and kind of blew themoff just because I was busy. It
was nothing personal, but that upsetthem, and therefore part of their perception
of me was that I wasn't reallypeople engage or people focused in being a

(28:18):
team leader or team manager. That'simportant. And so it's really frustrating,
even from a neurotypical standpoint, becauseI had no negative intent there. But
then I'm trying to manage all theseperceptions and that's exhausting. And then I
can't imagine how amplified that is beingneurodivergent. Right, yeah, Yeah,

(28:40):
And one thing I'm want to pointout is ADHD and autism have eighty percent
symptom overlap, so lots of thethings that I experienced as an ADHD person,
I think lots of the things,but people with autism can also relate
to And yeah, assuming positive intentis always great, but also like communication,

(29:07):
just you know, just say it. Just I I always tell my
boss like, I'm never you know, I'm not too sensitive, I'm never
I'm hard to offend. I justwant to hear if I if I offend
somebody or what is it somebody hasa problem with And I don't know why.
Maybe it's because I have ADHD,and I just don't know, literally

(29:29):
don't know why. But it feelsquite often like people just don't want to
have direct conversations about because I workedbest that way. So if you're like
Ellie, you know X, Yand Z you're not doing well enough,
or Ellie, when you say thatthis is what I hear, then I'm

(29:51):
able to exactly identify what's wrong andbe like, oh, yeah, I
can fix that, that's not aproblem. But when I don't know,
then I can and fix it sure, And it's that is really difficult for
me. And again it might bebecause I have ADHD that I just much

(30:11):
prefer. In fact, now thatI'm saying it out loud, it probably
is because I have ADHD. Iprefer directness. I prefer when people are
direct with me, and you know, I don't like when people mean to
me, but I think straight beingstraightforward goes a long way for me to
be able to realize, you know, something I'm doing is not the best,

(30:33):
but the guessing game is impossible.You know. I'm glad you call
that out for a couple of reasons. First, over my thirteen year career
in a financial services industry, Ihad many bosses, many teams, and
there was one particular manager that Iwas, for lack of a better word,

(30:56):
stuck with for a year that Iwill as of today say is the
worst boss I've ever had because hewas wishy washy. He would tell me
one thing and then like our quarterlyor mid year review, come around to
say something completely different. And Ifelt like I was walking on eggshells constantly,

(31:19):
and it caused anxiety depression. Iwas burnt out because I was constantly
trying to play this game, tryingto figure out what it is my boss
needed. And then you know,sometimes it was a good review, sometimes
it's a bad review, and Ijust felt like I could never win.
And I giggled a little bit.When you're talking about directness, because I

(31:41):
think from my perspective being thirty three, I grew up in high school where
we transitioned from not having cell phonesas kids to smartphones being a part of
our lives as adults, and wesaw both the before and after. Are
a very unique generation with that,And I've coached high schoolers within the last

(32:06):
five years and they've grown up entirelytheir adult life with smartphones. And one
of the trends I noticed, andI've talked to many teachers about this who
are friends of mine, is thatthere's both in adults and kids, there's
a lack of critical thinking skills andconflict resolution because it's so easy to hide

(32:32):
behind a phone now and just havea text message and not have to have
interpersonal conversations face to face. Andso I'll give you a great example is
we were on a week long tripto in this case Philadelphia, but we
did them many times. When Iwas in high school. We went to
Washington, d C. So werode on the bus with forty people,

(32:55):
and you made your stops and youstayed the night, and I remember it
being really fun when we were kids. I think most folks probably did some
kind of school trip like that growingup, and when we would go on
this trips, we sat on thebus and we'd talk to our friends and
it was a really social time.And I noticed the kids were literally sitting

(33:17):
right next to each other texting inthe same seat, and so they were
using Snapchat and then texting the personat the front of the bus, and
they became literally on our particular trip, it became this huge ordeal because there
was drama. I know that's notcomprising with teenagers, but it got misconstrued

(33:40):
because behind electronic communication there's no bodylanguage, there's no tone, and it's
hard to tell intent. And itbecame this thing where the entire group became
involved, and like the instructors hadto like bring them together and be like,
get your crap together, or we'regoing back home. And the very

(34:00):
last day of the trip, youknow, they put their phones away because
they wanted to go to the amusementpark instead of going home, and they
actually socialized and interacted with each other, and they had such a good time,
better communication, they were having fun. They weren't as clique and humans
are social creatures, and even Isee this with adults. We get so

(34:24):
consumed with electronic media or not wantingto face that conflict, whether that's because
of our personal mental health, ormaybe we're just so used to being able
to hide behind electronic communication that wewere not direct anymore. And so a
critical skill for humankind and for usto exist in the future is us to

(34:49):
continue to have those critical thinking andconflict resolution resolution skills, and that requires
being face to face. And Idon't think that's just neurodivergence, but I
do think that's a great call out, And that's my soapbox. No.
I mean, boy with the doubleh H swort, smartphones and connectivity and

(35:13):
social media is not only not onlyfrom the point of view of oh,
I you know, it is somuch harder to communicate intent and body language
and and all of those other thingsthat really make up more of our communication
styles than language itself, but alsofor people with adhd our dopamine regulation is

(35:45):
kind of broken for lack of butthe term. So we often engaged in
dopamine seeking behaviors, and boy,social media and smartphones aren't those great for
that, like really quick hit,but overall it's detrimental to your experience as

(36:08):
a human and that's something we've beentalking about with my boyfriend who's who also
has ADHD, about how to gettogether and avoid the screens. Right.
It's so easy too, because youknow, as an ADHD person, I've
never had a question come into mybrain that I didn't immediately need to research

(36:29):
the answer to. And I don'tknow what we did before smartphones, but
like having Google in my pocket hasbeen clutch. But you know, it's
not a great habit. Do Ithink that the part of like, if
I don't google it now, Iwill forget it. Object permanence is another
huge thing for me. If Idon't see it, if it lead,

(36:52):
if another thought comes in that allthought is now dead, it r ip,
I will never get it back.But being able to just sit and
talk to each other, and alsoto be bored, I think the part
of being bored is slowly becoming lostand that's where your brain can be creative

(37:15):
when when you don't have those externalstimulized being served to you. It's such
an important thing. And as meand my boyfriend are talking about potentially having
children, we both come forward fromyou know, long ADHD history. Clans,
with long ADHD history, there isno chance ADHD is genetic there's there

(37:40):
is very little chance that we willhave together a neurotypical child. Well,
that would be a miracle on itsown. So I think we're talking about
a lot more about parenting a neurodivergentchild, which is which is thing that
is a little different than being aneurodivergent adult. Having a child that you're

(38:09):
teaching about the world that looks completelyforeign to them, a child that has
tendencies to seek out dopamine everywhere,and that has tendencies to get over stimulated

(38:30):
quickly, as toddlers are already proneto. I view that as a little
bit of a challenge. But alsoI think being able to teach your children
that the world's outside of their electronicdevices is more important. I know it's

(38:50):
really hard, and I'm not judgingany parents, because parenting is super hard,
and you know, parenting in aculture that doesn't value parental input and
and and still requires you to parentlike you don't have a job and and
and work like you don't have achildren is really really hard. Absolutely,

(39:13):
But being able to teach your childto put the device down, I think
is very important. I think we'reI think you know, as you said,
as as millennial, as we werethe last ones to grow up without
an electronic device in our pocket,and this generation that's all they did.
And I think that the pendulum iskind of swinging back a little bit where

(39:35):
more and more parents are realizing thatit it could be a helpful tool,
but it also is very dangerous theamount of time and the amount of access
children has through those devices. SoI think lots of lots of parents are
realizing that they have to pull back. Absolutely, I agree one hundred percent,

(39:59):
and I've I'm seing a wide rainrange of parenting where you know,
some parents limit the screen time.Some parents are just overwhelmed and they're single
parent and this screen time saves themfrom you know, some gives them some
sanity back in their life. Likeit's a very difficult thing to manage because

(40:21):
I know, as an adult Ihave trouble managing my screen time. I
could not imagine trying to manage screentime for a child, right, And
so to that degree, like,I don't judge anybody who has screen time.
You know, it was just anobservation. Without the screens, the
interaction was completely different, And Ido think there's a lot of content being

(40:44):
put out now, especially around mentalhealth and and you know, our nervous
systems and just you know, ingeneral about how do we get away from
the screen time. And I'm actuallylistening to this book called The Men of
Normal by Gabor Mattei, and oneof the things in the last chapter I

(41:06):
listened to that they were talking aboutis there are literal companies that are that
exists with psychologists neuropsychologists to create applicationsand games that all they do is create
dopamine effects to keep people hooked onthe apps or keep people hooked on the
phone or whatever. And when youliterally have companies out there targeting everybody to

(41:34):
do this, and that's their entirejob is to biohack the our biology to
you know, keep giving us thosedopamine hits so they make more money.
And blah blah blah blah blah.You know, it's scary because you if
you're not cognizant of that being athing, you get sucked into it,

(41:54):
right, And I think we're allguilty of it. We've all sat on
our phone playing a game on TikTok, Instagram, whatever. And there's value
on both sides, but also there'sdangers, right, you know. So
I think everything in moderation. Andwe've said this on this podcast before.
You know, it's hard, butfinding different ways to your point to engage,

(42:19):
I think is great. And Iknow people think I'm crazy for quote
unquote running. Yeah, but thereality is I tell people I do it
because I can be outside and Ijust go outside. Sometimes I have my
music and sometimes I don't, andI just enjoy seeing the scenery and listening
to the birds or just focusing onmy body, and I don't check my

(42:40):
phone. I very rarely talk toanyone, you know, I very rarely
am messing with my phone. Ijust let the playlist go, and it's
just like a great disconnect for me. And I've noticed when I'm not doing
my runs, you know, becauseI'm not getting outside and some other things,
I am in a much shittier moodbecause my body's not getting what it

(43:04):
needs to disconnect. And running forme, is that disconnect. It doesn't
have to be for everybody. Yeahno, but I think I think that's
such an important point and for everybody, whether a neurodiversent or neurotypical, going
outside, getting exercise, those twothings alone, study after study after study

(43:28):
that we have shows how important thatis to your health and well being physical
and mental. Being able to gooutside, get some and fresh air and
move your body is huge, andI think especially for neurodivergent people, I
think sometimes it's really hard for mewhen I come home from work and I'm

(43:51):
so exhausted. Like I have ajob where now after I got diagnosed,
I pretty quickly realized that corporate wasnot for me, and that's why I
was struggling. So I have ajob where I move my body a lot
and I talk to lots of peopleand it's very engaging and I love it.
But at the end of the day, boy, I'm exhausted. But

(44:13):
if I actually force myself and iteither take my dog to the park or
go for a walk or do somethingactive, I feel better, absolutely,
And that's a huge way of regulatingyour nervous system too, being outside and
just being even though sometimes it's hard, I think for nero divergent people with

(44:37):
racing thoughts I have if I'm notmedicated, my brain is just like having
a party in there, and it'sjust it's constant thoughts going back and forth.
But that's also something we can makebetter by practice with practicing mindfulness.

(45:00):
Super hard, super hard for anybody, so hard for neurodivergent people, because
I've noticed this trend of of neurodivergentpeople referring to their brain as separate for
them from themselves. And sometimes that'swhat it feels like. It feels like
your brain has a brain of itsown, and it's just like on something.

(45:22):
Sometimes I have a thought and Iliterally stap myself and go, what
are you doing? Why are youbringing these things up? This happened in
middle school. Okay, let's notyou know, I'll wake up in the
middle of the night with having likea really vivid dream and go, what
are you doing there? We're supposedto be resting. Why are you making
up scary movies? Stop it?But being able to like go tide and

(45:45):
move your body, it's super importantand super important I think for ADHD people
to get exercise, because yeah,we now that you have electronic device connected
to the whole world literally in yourpocket and were in your house. It's
so hard, so easy to getthe dopamine from the palm of your hands,

(46:06):
but it's also out there. Youcan also do things. And one
other thing I have found you know, other than exercise, which I think
is really important. One other thingI have found really really important in my
life is art, making art anddoing something creative. It doesn't have to
be good. I'm not good atmaking any art, but doing something creative

(46:30):
really, I don't know exactly whatthe science behind it is. I just
can tell you that my brain reallylikes it. It feels good, it
feels right, and it doesn't haveto be anything you do, you know,
I think the geek culture right,like everything you do you have to

(46:52):
go on Etsy and sell and youhave to, you know, have have
twenty gigs and always be making money. I think not doing that. I
think taking walks with no purpose,not going anywhere, and making art with
no purpose, letting your brain becreative and be in a moment. I

(47:13):
think that is one thing that hasreally helped my brain feel better, feel
like it's not, you know,constantly full of electricity. No. I
think that's a great call out too, because for a couple of reasons,
I probably could say that phrase allday. But there was a debate I

(47:37):
was having with some colleagues about artificialintelligence, and during the Writer's Screen Guild
strike, people were talking about AItaking existing creative work to create new content
while the writers were on strike.And one that's not okay, Like,

(48:00):
that's not true creativity. You're justhacking what other people had, right,
That's all the AI's doing is istaking what's already existed. But there's a
phrase I read somewhere that said thepurpose of AI or computers or you know,
being more efficient as things is,you know, we want the AI

(48:22):
or the computers and robots to helpus do laundry and clean the dishes so
we have more time to be creative, not the other way around. We
don't want the AI and computers androbots to be creative so I can spend
time doing laundry and cooking and doingdishes. And I think that comparison is
great because over the last century,as technology has advanced and made our lives

(48:45):
easier, realistically, what that shouldbe doing is giving us more time to
be creative, which is what humansdo best, that's what makes us unique,
and not you know, spend moretime on mundane daily task. And
I think it's difficult because we're livingthrough this age. Things are changing so

(49:07):
rapidly. It's hard to kind oflike get a grasp of it. But
even outside the context of AI andlooking at just the mental health space and
psychology, there is tons of researcharound things like music therapy and art therapy
and all these other things, becausecreativity is a core part of being human

(49:29):
and what you know, makes usunique and it's therapeutic in its own ways.
And I think ideally, in aperfect world, we'd all love to,
you know, express our creativity asour full time job and just be
you know, It's part of thereason I started this podcast is it's my
way to be creative. And Idon't get paid to do this. I'm

(49:49):
doing this for fun because I'm passionateabout this subject. But it gives me
purpose outside of my day to dayjob, which is you know, cool
and you know, pays me welland I like the people, but it's
not what I'm passionate about, youknow, and finding space to be creative,
you know, for me, that'sthe podcast or you know, making

(50:10):
our I was actually looking around theliving room. There's a couple of like
fartsy art stuff that we did asa group. You know, we're at
those paint and SIPs, but Ihung it up because it gives me joy
and there's a memory behind it,and I think you're hit the nail on
the head with that one. Yeah, I mean one thing that if I

(50:31):
could talk to twenty year old Ellieand tell her something, it would be
things don't have to be perfect,and your job will never love you back.
Yeah, we would all love theparadigm where we all do super creative

(50:51):
things and things that fulfill us.But the end of the day, and
I love my job. Don't getme wrong, I love my job.
I have found something that I'm verypasd about, and healthcare is a place
where I now see I was alwaysmeant to be. I am a caregiver
by nature, and to be ableto do that for work is amazing for

(51:12):
me. But at the end ofthe day, that's not the place,
the only place where I need toseek fulfillment. I have discovered as an
adult past my twenties that fulfillment doesn'tonly come from a place that makes you
money and pays your bills. That'sit's great if that also includes fulfillment.

(51:39):
But at the end of the day, there are people who work mundane jobs
that have fulfilling lives, and thereare people that work in fulfilling careers that
don't have fulfilling lives. Seeking thathumanity elsewhere is super important. I wholeheartedly

(52:00):
agree. So with that being said, I think we had a very dynamic
discussion about neurodivergence. You know,I think it's super important to normalize a
lot of what we talked about todaywith just allowing space for people to be

(52:21):
different, assuming positive intent, andalso understanding that you know, it's can
be difficult, especially to your point, like if you're not diagnosed as ADHD
and you're not neurodivergent, you mightnot know what's going on. But even
if you are, it's still difficultbecause the way we live in work,

(52:43):
you know, isn't made for nonneurotypical people or neurodivergent people. So with
that being said, is there anythingelse you'd like to share with us today?
Like, yes, I would say, just remember we're all working progress
and language that you use towards yourself. I've said this to one of my

(53:04):
coworkers and I've been thinking about itsince. She was kind of hard on
herself because something went wrong and Isaid, and she was saying, I'm
so dumb, and I looked ather and I said, would you say
this to me if I made amistake. So when you talk to yourself,
think about would you say this toyour good friend. Yeah. Well,
I appreciate you being authentic and sharingwith us. I know it's tough

(53:28):
to share our own personal perspective andour struggles sometimes, but you did it
in such a way that I findit highly interesting. And A looted a
couple of soapboxes there, So takewhat you learned today, go normalize it
and this has been It's sensitive withAlex and Ellie and have a great week. Fine,