6. Small Town Pride

June is Pride month which commerates years of struggle for civil rights and ongoing pursuit of equal justice for the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ+) communities. 

As one Ashland, KY community member asked, "You guys can get married now and you can have your Pride, so why are you pushing so hard? Why do you have to be so present and visible in our community?"

In this episode, Alex answers exactly that. She talks with Holly, Des, and Kasheena with Ashland, KY Pride about issues surrounding LGBTQ+ communities, especially in a small towns, across the United States. 

As Holly says, "Just because they have a rainbow sticker on their window, that doesn't mean that we are safe there." 

This epsiode is a dynamic and powerful discussion surrounding ongoing injustices and difficulties with communicating differences, not only in LGBTQ+ communities, but also for people of color. We touch on everything from healthcare and political polarization to active acts of violence and hate, and how that compares and contrasts in small towns to more progressive and larger cities. 

"People are going to get mad when we release this episode...and that's okay." As Alex tells it! So buckle in, and prepare for an authentic It's Sensitive discussion.

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Hey, everybody, this is Alexwith its sensitive I'm here today with Ashland
Kentucky Pride, and we're gonna talka little bit about small town pride.
I'm gonna have them introduce themselves soyou can get used to their voice.
I'm Holly Blevins. My pronouns areshe her, and I am the president
of Ashland Kentucky Pride. My nameis desire Laane. My pronouns are she

(00:39):
her, and I am the vicepresident. My name is Kashena Davis.
My pronouns are she her. Iam a board member of Ashland Kentucky Pride,
and I actually met you guys.I knew Holly through another organization called
GISH. We did international scavenger huntstogether. But I actually met this entire

(01:03):
group when I was working Columbus Prideon the steering committee, and I thought
something that was interesting is last yearI worked Columbus Pride, which is a
huge city where the largest pride inthe Midwest Single Day Pride, and so
our pride looks a lot different whenI came down to Ashland Pride like a

(01:26):
month later compared to Ashland, KentuckyPride. That I'll say is like a
small town comparatively, and I thinkthose contrasts are important to highlight and normalize
because you know, the difficulties andstruggles with the LGBT community are already a
lot, but then looking at itfrom the lens of I'm in a very

(01:49):
open city like Columbus that's pretty accepting, versus a small town like Ashland,
I think can be very difficult.And I would love to hear your guys'
perspective on that, because I thinknot everybody really is just how difficult being
LGBTQ can be, especially in asmall town. Mm hmm, yeah,
yeah, yeah, it's definitely so. I'm originally from a large town.

(02:15):
I'm from southern California, and youknow, I spent my college years attending
Long Beach Pride and Los Angeles Prideand West Hollywood Pride, and I was
very active with similar groups there too. And the contrast having been in Ashland

(02:39):
now for almost eight years, it'sstark. It's a completely different world,
and it's it's a completely different worldfor community members year round. And then
when it comes to things like planninga Pride festival, the the things that

(03:00):
you bump up against here in asmall town, especially in rural eastern Kentucky
versus the just almost comparatively zero roadblocksfor a pride in southern California. It's
like or even in Columbus. It'sjust mind blowing how it's a completely different

(03:23):
experience, absolutely, And I thinkone of the things that is super obvious
is obviously size, like the numberof attendees you have. We were in
city park, had streets shut down, probably toilets for days, because that's

(03:46):
necessary. We have this huge marchwith tens of thousands of people, and
we work our hours like Friday nightfrom like four to ten and Saturday all
day from like you know, tena, you know, ten am to
eight pm, and our parks foolmost of the time. And I remember
coming down here and you know,you're checking people and manually with tickets through

(04:14):
like a tent, and you guyshad some vendors and organizations for education,
and you know, some food trucksand stuff. But maybe you were in
a small city park. You tookup maybe like the space of you know,
half a block, and you wereexcited to get you know, how

(04:35):
many people do you typically get atyour pride? I wanna say it probably
actor is about two hundred. That'swhat I was thinking. Yeah, And
when you talk about, oh,we just have like ten thousand people show
up to march, let alone,be at the Pride itself all in versus
two hundred just to show up period, that's a very to your point stark
number and difference, right, Soit makes me curious from your perspective when

(04:59):
you're working on a smaller scale.One of the big things I noticed is
you guys had a lot of educationalresources, and we have that in Columbus,
but I felt like the focus wasa little bit more on that and
just talking to community members. Youhad some vendors, but I feel like,
especially in the bigger community community Pride, we had a ton of vendors

(05:20):
selling stuff. How do you feelabout that or would you say that's an
accurate perspective? I would I wouldsay that is accurate. I feel like,
I mean, educated education around anyqueer issues is needed everywhere, but

(05:43):
being in a small town, itjust seems like that really needs to be
one of the top focus because there'sjust not enough education in the area sure
around that and so at least seeingus out and living and various different vendors

(06:10):
that are there, all of whichproviding different levels of education around things.
It's helpful. I would also addthat we sometimes get messages from people who
will say things like, you know, you guys can get married now and
you can have your pride, soyou know, why are you pushing so

(06:30):
hard? Like why do you haveto be so present and visible in our
community? And that's where that educationis really important. It reminds people,
yeah, sure we can get married, but that doesn't mean that a trans
person can get the health care thatthey need. You know, that doesn't
mean that a queer kid is safein school. So that education is absolutely
essential in a smaller area where peoplemay not even think of things like that

(06:53):
because they may not know a lotof queer people personally, or at least
they don't think that they do.It goes beyond education because it's also us
providing resources for those queer people whomay not know what's available to them.
So like, for example, atour last Pride picnic, we had the
Kentucky Fair Housing Council as a vendorbecause they have information and resources that they

(07:19):
can provide, specifically two members ofthe Kentucky LGBTQ community about their rights in
housing in our state, and youknow, we we have talked a lot
about doing things like a healthcare summitspecifically centered around healthcare for LGBTQ members of

(07:43):
our community, because that's one thingthat we hear a lot about. I
have a message in our box rightnow somebody looking for an affirming, safe
doctor to go to, and youknow, we get that message at least
once a month and which is luckilybecoming more prevalent as far as being able

(08:03):
to find. I think mainly whatI've seen so far as primary care physicians
who put out that they are affirming, safe, welcoming, whether or not,
you know, hopefully those things areaccurate. Sure, yeah, it's

(08:28):
it's one thing for those not justhealth care providers, but anyone to come
to us and say, oh,yeah, I'm affirming, and for us
to then hear from somebody in thecommunity that said, no, they're absolutely
they dead named me the whole time, they used they misgendered me, blah
blah blah. Just because they're theyhave a rainbow sticker on their window doesn't

(08:50):
mean that we're safe there. Ithink there are a lot of people that
their intentions are probably well more peopleanyway, area that they can have good
intentions, but I think they failto realize themselves how important it is to
continue to learn about a community thathas been largely oppressed and dehumanized. Absolutely,

(09:22):
I think those are all very goodcall outs. I'm fairly new to
the community myself. I came outin May Have twenty twenty three, is
bisexual, and I volunteer a lot, and I've seen the community from a
lens, but only for a shortperiod of time in Columbus. But I
remember when Holly you came up toColumbus, something that resonated with me,

(09:43):
and this was actually before I cameout, was You're like, hey,
there's a lot of like you know, rainbow trans pride flags out in all
kinds of your neighborhoods. And youwere like, is that normal? And
I was like, oh yeah,Like to me, that would just normalized
as part of my life growing upin Columbus, Like, oh, there's
plenty of areas around Columbus that's completelynormal. There's some areas that don't have

(10:05):
it, But I never really lookedat it as being truly unsafe in any
manner. And after I came out, like that was something that still stuck
with me was how normalized it wasn'tColumbus to see that. And I come
down here to Kentucky and I maybecan count on a single hand how many
Pride flags I see out right rightwell. And in contrast to that,

(10:30):
I don't have any stickers or anythingon my car that indicate that I'm a
part of the Ashland Pride because I'mconvinced my windows will get broken into because
of it. I had a gardenflag out in front of my house that
was a Pride flag. My neighborsare very conservative leaning, and there was

(10:54):
always a little bit of nervousness puttingthat flag flag out, which is something
that before I moved here I neverhad to deal with. I had the
privilege of living in an area whereI didn't have to worry about that kind
of like how Columbus is sure.And the only reason that we keep that

(11:16):
garden flag out as much as wedo, or I make my house lights
rainbow, is because the kid acrossthe street is queer, and I want
them to know that even though inour neighborhood they are surrounded by very conservative
people, there's at least one housethat they are safe if they need it,

(11:39):
and and but that was a calculatedrisk on my part to be that
visibly queer in my own neighborhood.But that's how it is here. You
have to weigh those risks of youknow, and it's like like, I

(12:05):
am a white Cis woman walking throughthe world, and unless I signal somehow
that I'm queer, I am relativelysafe here. But that's not the case
for everyone. And you know,those are things we have a hard time

(12:26):
as an organization getting people to comeout to our meetings and events because it's
not necessarily that they wouldn't feel safewith us, but they don't feel safe
coming out at all in this area. Right, I've been here. I'm
not from the area either. Ithought I was from a small town in

(12:52):
Alabama in the South, grew upthere. Looking back, it's not as
small of a town as I thought, though. I do believe Huntsville finally
just had their first Pride event intwenty sometime between twenty one and twenty three.

(13:13):
Lived in Louisville for a time,and it actually didn't dawn on me
when I first moved to the areahow different it was, and kind of
talking back to that privilege I waslucky enough to move to the area for
work. I had a roommate thatI knew previously from Louisville, so I

(13:37):
knew I was okay there. Andsimilarly, at the time, you know
out as bisexual. I don't knowif I would really say out. I
didn't talk about it a lot,I didn't live it a lot. I
didn't feel it was necessary. Butit didn't take long after being here that

(14:03):
I realized why that is necessary.My workplace small town hospital, and I
heard constantly various different types of questionsof what church I attend, if I
have a family, if I'm married, how many kids I have, various

(14:28):
aspects, and at the same timehearing the people that would come into the
hospital and my coworkers discussed very conservativeviews, and started realizing the area that
I was in was not It wasvery different from anywhere I had been prior

(14:54):
sure, and so I went acompletely opposite route with that that Holly and
started. I started realizing the necessityto talk about it out loud more.
And do you really start realizing howmany people around you really care, really

(15:20):
care about you as a person.And I really recognized how small town few
points on that regard hits really canhit really close to home. I was

(15:41):
an adult and met this this younggirl through friends of hours, watched her
grow up in that like you know, my own kid or a very young
sister. As she got older,came out to me and still to this
day does not have the support ofher parents, Like she cannot even talk

(16:07):
about how happy this this woman inher life that she knows makes her.
And it's just those kind of conversationsand will not really conversations that is prevalent
around the area absolutely, you know, unless you guys were talking about that.

(16:29):
I've been extremely fortunate in coming outof last year. I didn't realize
how privileged I was until I spentmore time around y'all because I came out
first to my mental health therapist thanto my close friends at one point,

(16:52):
you know, my family, whichwas a little bit dicey, but was
accepting, and dove straight into gettingon some boards and working with organizations for
just like Pride or LGBTQ community becauseit's something I was passionate about. Because
I realized most of my life Ispent being heteronormative, because we're all taught

(17:17):
to be heteronormative, right, AndI was just reflecting back to like last
weekend, I literally ran a quartermarathon with Buddy paint on, and one
of the largest things that was spraypainted on me was out and proud on
my back at an event with eleventhousand people, and not one person's at

(17:37):
least to my face, said anegative thing, nor did somebody target me.
And I didn't have to think twiceabout any of those things. I
just told you, and as amatter of fact, both my former employer
and current employer, because I recentlyswitched jobs in August of last year,
I came out to some colleagues orpassively said that I was bisexual, and

(18:00):
at no point was I treated anydifferently than before I said that word.
And I'm very much cognizant that's noteverybody's journey or coming out story. Even
in a big city. I knowthere's a lot of people who have families
who aren't accepting, or or maybein workplaces that aren't, because I've had

(18:22):
conversations through dating or just talking topeople. But I think as you hit
the nail on the head when you'relike it's much more prevalent in a smaller
town versus what I just said thatI could do all that in large city.
If I did that down here,I definitely would have been targeted any
of that. Right. I'm fortyone years old and recently, like in

(18:45):
October of last year, switched rolesat my job. I also work at
that same hospital that doesn't be mentioned, and there are people in my current
role that even though I am thepresident of the local pride organization and I
run the pride ERG at the hospital, that there are people in my department

(19:11):
I'm not out too, because I'mnervous to come out to them because a
lot of them are older, theyare all very religious, and there's a
very real chance that they will becausemany of them volunteer their time at the

(19:32):
hospital, that if I come outto them, they will express to my
boss, who runs the volunteer department, that they don't want to work with
me. And I feel like thatthat kind of goes back to what Kashina
hid on with Oh no, Iwent blank, Yeah, I went blank.

(19:55):
That's okay. They are an authenticpodcast here and that sometimes how weapons
in life? Yeah, well,I can speak to being a queer person
of color and how before I evenget to the point where I can talk
about being part of the LGBTQ community. I'm already visibly a person of color.

(20:15):
You know, I'm black, I'malso Puerto Rican and Dominican. People
around here doing no that is.So it can be very frustrating because a
lot of people here are quite youknow, Hispanic origin, with Mexico exclusively,
and that's no shade to Mexicans,Like I've grown up around Mexicans when
I was in New York, whichis where I'm from, and I always
found the Hispanic community in general tobe very warm and inviting. But when

(20:37):
I moved here, I you know, for the first time, I really,
I really understood what it was liketo not feel safe because there's a
part of my identity that's different froma lot of people here, and I
can't hide that, like I don'thave the option to choose when I do
or don't disclose it. So thatin and of itself is already kind of

(20:59):
challenging because there are a lot ofvery conservative and quite frankly hostile people here
when it comes to people of color. So, you know, my partner
is non binary, and so whenwe're together, we're a visibly LGBTQ couple,
and the way that people stare atus sometimes is very unsettling. And
I don't like when my partner goesplaces and I'm not with them, because

(21:22):
I want to be there in caseanything happens. We're fortunate in that we
haven't really had a lot of peoplebe aggressive about that specific thing. People
have been aggressive toward us before aboutus being an interracial couple. So it
just adds this really complex dynamic ofyou know, do I want to disclose

(21:42):
this part of my identity with peoplewhen I already have to, you know,
jump all these hurdles sometimes just toexist. So it's also frustrating because
I don't know really any other queerblack people who live here. You know,
there's Kasha McDonald who runs West VirginiaBlack Pride. She's from here,

(22:07):
but she's in Charleston now, andyou know there's a Black Pride organization there.
I can't honestly say I can imaginethat happening here in Ashland or the
Tri state area anytime soon, andthat that's heartbreaking for me. I want
to pause for a second. One. I appreciate you sharing your journey and

(22:27):
your struggles because that's intensely intimate,and I think not everyone can always be
in a position to hear that perspective. But something out of that conversation really
rang out is that people approach youabout just being an interracial couple, and

(22:48):
I want to throw back for asecond that part of being the LGBTQ community
you set you kind of were talkingabout. You can at times choose to
share that part of your identity becauseit's not so visible. And I think
a lot of times I hear people, no matter what part of the United

(23:11):
States i'm in, say why doyou need pride? And I think it's
important because not everybody I think Hollydoes in. Kashina said like, there
are times you feel comfortable sharing thatpart of your identity and times you do
not, And to me, that'swhy we need pride. But Kashina,
I want to touch on the internationalcouple part. I feel like there's a

(23:33):
lot of people who say similar thingsabout the black community. Why do we
need Black History Month? Why dowe need to celebrate Juneteenth? Why do
we need to honor that history?And I think that's a great example.
If you're in a progressive city likeColumbus, where being in a racial it's
not a huge deal. It seemssilly and redundant. But the fact that

(23:59):
we're in twenty twenty four and peopleare still uncomfortable with an interracial couple,
I think it's important to remind folksthat segregation and the relativity of time was
not that long ago, and ittakes change. Change can happen both rapidly,
but cultural change. Being comfortable withthings take a very long time.

(24:19):
And there's still generations around that areuncomfortable with just even inner racial marriage because
the way they were raised and grewup that was not acceptable. Maybe it's
the religion, or maybe it's somethingelse, and so educating them just being
a person of color is difficult.And then you add the LGBTQ perspective,

(24:40):
and there is even more difficult anda calculated risk that you're having to make
and think about almost every day,especially if you're afraid your you know,
partners just to go out because they'retrands and non binary. And I want
to honor that both of those perspectivesare difficult and maybe hard to understand because

(25:00):
I'm also a white woman sis youknow, born female at birth, So
there's a lot of things I don'tunderstand. One of my best friends black,
and we talk about racial topics alot between each other. But we
can do that because we're honest andwe can ask what I feel like,
we're sometimes dumb questions and it goesboth ways, right, But not everybody

(25:22):
has somebody in their life like thatto see that perspective, or even a
person of color that they're friends withthat see maybe them struggling or that things
aren't always the same, right,And so I want to mend you for
sharing that, and especially in sucha public manner, because that is such
a difficult topic. But that conversationneeds to be normalized because if we're not

(25:42):
normalizing that conversation, we can't getbetter. Whether it's people of color or
being LGBTQ, like, it's importantto talk about this and not just closet
this stuff and say, well,it doesn't exist because I don't see it.
And I think sometimes that's the problemwith the LGBTQ community, is like
ignorance is bliss, right, Oh, that's why you could put out your

(26:03):
pride flags. But when I knowsomebody who's trans, now, all of
a sudden, it's a problem,right, Because we're not having those conversations.
And even in the larger city.I know somebody I'm on a board
with their kid is transitioning and they'rein high school and they literally had to
move a school because of how muchthey were being bullied, and the administration

(26:26):
just said, well, your kidsshouldn't be trans and see and then you
put that in a role area andwhere that, yeah, that education is
even less. And so I meanan area like that, someone having the
nerve to say that and not seethe problem there, and there's no school,

(26:52):
there's no other school for our kidshere to transfer to you, there's
no other option is equally hostile acrossschool boards in school districts here. Absolutely,
And I think it's easy. That'swhat I was going to touch on
earlier. It's easy for people tohear the things that we're saying and think,

(27:14):
well, there is you know,there's the principal, there is school
board administration or at you know jobs, there are managers and you know,
yeah, there are these checks andbalances, but they really aren't there in
places like this, the hospital thatI worked at, and the same thing

(27:37):
with the schools around here. Everyeveryone pretty much knows everyone, and then
you add that generational aspect to it. The older generation, they really know
everyone and so getting that change made. I mean, it's very frustrating and

(28:00):
it takes so much work. Iam very proud of the work that we
do our organization, and we heara lot from people who pull us aside
and thank us, and like,you know, I never thought I'd see

(28:23):
a Pride festival here or like lastyear I think it was. We had
a kid come up to us andtell us it was their very first Pride
and those moments are amazing. ButI'm fucking tired. I'm so tired.

(28:44):
It's an uphill, constant battle tomake any headway in this area as a
progressive organization, as an LGBT organization, as an intersectional organization. Hell,
even just getting one event, nomatter the scale from a drag brunch to

(29:10):
our annual picnic. It is abattle with officials and the area. Even
the officials like within the city government, who are like you know, relatively

(29:30):
supportive of us personally, would neverit would never occur to any of them
to use the power that they holdin their positions and their status within the
city to support us, like theywill go as far as they are legally

(29:56):
required to and that's it. Solast year at Columbus Pride, you guys
had, you know, a smallgroup of protesters, and the Columbus Police
immediately showed up and were there tosupport your organization and make sure that those

(30:18):
protesters, you know, only wentso far as to exercise in their First
Amendment rights. Whereas for us,we have to have multiple conversations with our
police department ahead of an event anticipatingat least fifteen protesters with megaphones shouting just

(30:41):
the worst things at children, andour police will not interfere. They will
stand back until it comes time topossibly arrest someone when that goating becomes too
much, and then I don't knowif they would that's fair. And our

(31:03):
city government people will show up toour event and then stand there and be
like, well, they're legally allowedto do that, and we have to
be like, are you kidding me? They are talking to children about masturbation
at a public event and you're doingnothing, and they're like, yep,

(31:23):
sorry about it, and they don'tunderstand it's very much the city view to
They're like, well, we're goingto treat you how we would treat any
other group, except all those othergroups are largely religious. You know,

(31:47):
they just held the National Day ofPrayer here in town, and if we
showed up and started protesting, wewould have been arrested, you know what
I mean? Yeah, And Ido want to add some perspect too.
I was I kinda did a gigglebecause I was present next to the protesters

(32:08):
in Columbus and also present to seethe protesters down here first and foremost Columbus
police immediately showed up because over time, our city has built that rapport to
be It didn't mean every officer wassupportive, but the department, the Mayor's
office, the Pride Committee have builtthat relationship and that took time, right

(32:30):
and because we're in a more progressivecity, that is happening now. But
it's almost like throwing yourself back somany years to come down here from a
progressiveness standpoint. But I did wantto honor like how much work I know
our Pride Committee puts in to havethat relationship, because I know you put
in just as much work to evenhave a relationship with law enforcement, because

(32:53):
they're important. There are, likeyou said, people who support what we're
doing, and there's people who don't. But it's their job, regardless to
your point, to do their job, which is to protect the people and
make sure they're not overstepping that bound. But to give perspective on the protesting
point, we were at a pridewith like ten thousand plus people. I

(33:15):
was running an alcohol stand that wassuper busy, and some protesters showed up
next to us in the maybe threeor four with very similar signs to the
protesters that showed up down Hair inashlelyand Kentucky with a megaphone. But our
community, we had enough people presentthat our community tried to drown them out,

(33:38):
tried to block out their signage.Columbus Police was standing by in case
something escalated to keep the community safe, and it happened rapidly. They were
there maybe five to ten minutes beforepeople showed up to essentially block them out
as much as we could at ColumbusPride. So their effect on people relatively

(34:01):
was minor, but it was impactfulbecause you know, that's if you're a
child and you see that and you'reexcited to be at pride, that's still
impactful, but it's magnified in asmaller town like Ashland. When I say
that it was like impressive. Idon't mean it in a good way.

(34:24):
There was like fifteen to twenty peoplehere with megaphones with giant signs, and
what was being said in Columbus wasvery generic religious stuff like it's a sin
to be a part of the LGBTcommunity and gay sex or whatever. Down
in Ashland there what you just saidtalking about masturbation and just getting grotesque and

(34:45):
nasty and the just way more inappropriateand impactful then it was when I was
standing right next to them at Columbus. And then to your point, I
remember at one point an officer waslike, well, let me get the
sound decibel meter and figure out ifthey're even light enough to do something up.

(35:07):
It didn't even then they might talkto them, and you don't have
the same like I don't want tosay bandwidth, but like the same support
to like block out the noise tothe you know, our police were literally
like right next to them. Yourpolice was standing like one hundred yards away

(35:29):
from them. Because they didn't wantto be perceived as being involved in the
senate situation. You had to putup barricades and anticipate that because you knew
they were going to be there.We didn't have to put up barricades at
Columbus Parade, and not saying thatmeans what you know, everybody is unsafe
as long as there's hate, right, But how it's handled, how hatees

(35:49):
handled, is the important part.And I think that's the difference we in
contrast we see between a larger citythat's more progressive versus a small town that's
more conservative. Right, the supportyou have to feel safe. I was
standing right next to them as asteering committee member, and at no point
fell unsafe in Columbus. I wasdown here in Ashland as a spectator and

(36:10):
I was like constantly vigilant because Ifelt like they were ready to go off
the rails. And it wasn't becauseyou, as a Pride committee made me
feel as if I knew what effortyou guys put in. But it was
just the community environment down here,because there's a very different mentality where that
just safety isn't naturally there. Andit's unfortunate that any part of the LGBTQ

(36:36):
community. And I'm saying this becausethese are constant conversations no matter how safe
the city, you're accepting the city, every single LGBTQ community has conversations about
safety and worries about being violently accosted. Oh yeah, and to the point,
even though we have police officers atour big annual event, we are

(37:04):
lucky enough to know a gentleman thathas a business around here that is a
defense type business as well as security, and so we are able to utilize
him and his business. And luckilythey are aware enough and care and are

(37:30):
educated, and they are even inour corner too. Like we have set
up defense classes. We're in talksof trying to do those more often,
various different first aid classes for becauseI mean the reality of the world that
we live in in the of course, also being a part of that community,

(37:52):
you're much more of a target forviolence, and so all of that,
and then being in a small areaand yeah, we're here. We're
an organization and we're trying our best. We care about our people, we

(38:12):
want to make them safe, wewant to be present. But then to
Holly what she was saying, youknow, she's tired. You know,
we're tied. There is not enoughpeople in the organization to really see out
what we envision. I know,the three of us have so many ideas

(38:32):
and things that we want to dowith this organization and community, but seeing
that through is very difficult. Yeah, yeah, I think you touched on
a little bit. You know,there's just less overt support. You know.
I think I could probably throw astone in Columbus, even in some
of the suburbs, and probably findat least a business to support genuinely support

(38:57):
Pride or LGBTQ community. But youjust talked about one local business. But
so we went from the city anda government perspective. You know, you
have people who support it, butthey have to be mindful of quote unquote
politics, which I actually recorded anepisode with one of your other board member,
Sean you know, who's running forcity commissioner. But then you look
at, okay, do you haveenough support from the local businesses to even

(39:22):
make it an event that is worthcoming to for a lack of a better
words, because if you don't havethe local businesses supporting and the vendors there,
what is there to do? Youknow, if you don't have people
showing up to help with the educationor you know, make it fun.
You know, because we could probablyagain throw a stone and Columbus and find

(39:44):
enough food trick vendors like I'm coolwith all two BTQU people, let's go,
but some people aren't okay with that, and I don't want my business
represented around that. Right. Well, we have the added hurdle of there
are businesses and people who do supportus, but they have to worry about
backlash, so they may say,Hey, you know, I would like
to be at one of your events, but it's not good for my business.

(40:08):
A lot of my clientele will notapprove of me being associated with you.
I think that's a good perspective too, because I think in a more
progressive city like Columbus, it's theopposite lens. I want to be associated
with it because there's so many communitymembers that then can boost my business.
And I know there's a lot ofcorporations and fortunately who may do that like,

(40:30):
oh, it looks good on ourresume quote unquote as a corporation to
say we're LGBTQ oriented. Let meslap my name on that. But and
that's how they view it in Columbus. A lot of businesses do. But
to your point, there's businesses whoviewed the exact opposite. I can't be
with you, well, and thatis why we have or y'all means all
campaign. We have local businesses,we actually have some mental health providers.

(40:54):
We've got a variety of agencies whohave signed up, and basically, in
signing up with y all means all, it means that anyone who goes into
their business can expect to be treatedwith respect and have their dignity respected as
well, and that it's a businessthat wouldn't tolerate them being harassed or berated
for who they are, and thathaving those businesses who've signed up for that,

(41:16):
that's just it's been really wonderful andit's been a wonderful means of support
for people in our community to seethaty' all means all sticker means you can
go in there and you can bewho you are and you will be respected.
It's a safe place for you tobe. That's especially important for our
youth in our community. We haveso many young LGBT people here in Ehland.

(41:40):
We see them all the time.I mean they come to our meetings,
particularly at our events. Like Hollihad said, it's so powerful to
hear a young person say, thisis my first time being somewhere like this,
or this is my first time gettingto be out and feel safe.
That is what our organization all about, is making sure that no matter how

(42:01):
small our town is, and nomatter how much hostility you know, certain
conservatives one for our way, we'restill here. We still love each other,
and we will protect each other andtake care of each other to the
best of our ability. Absolutely,I'm going to ask a tough question first.
I want to know part of thereason we're having this conversation today with

(42:22):
y'all is because I see the hardwork you're putting in and the change that
you're putting in. Like the y'allmeans all was one of the first things
I saw when I came to visitAshland. I'm like, what does this
mean? And you're like, oh, we did that. You know.
I think you partnered with a lotof organizations and I think just having a
space where everybody feels safe and it'svisible is important. And you did the

(42:45):
work to talk to these groups tomake sure that's an actual thing that's being
done. It's not somebody slapping arainbowsticker on and saying we're safe. It's
you had a conversation and you knowthey're a business, that business that will
be safe. And I think thatkind of work, that grassroots work is
super important. The tough question Ihave, and you may need a minute

(43:07):
to think about this, is fromyour perspective or experience when people are anti
LGBTQ, what do you feel likethe biggest thing you hear them say the
reason that they hate or dislike orare resistant to the community. Lately,

(43:29):
I feel like it's a lot ofFox News talking points like I I you
know, especially in the last sixto eight years, the people that you

(43:51):
know. Of course, there's thereligious factions of people too, and that's
not and I know that we've generalizedthat a lot lately, and a majority
of the religious folks around here areanti LGBTQ, but there are exceptions to
that rule. In fact, SeanYes, who you spoke with, his

(44:13):
church signed they all means all pledgeright. They are so far the first
and only church that has done that. But it was a huge step and
they lost people from their congregation indoing that, in making that choice.
But as far as what we hearfrom people, and I think this is
for me anyway, this is reallyfrustrating because they're just regurgitating the Alex Jones,

(44:39):
Tucker Carlson bullshit that they're hearing intheir their vacuum of conservative right wing
maga spaces. They're not having conversationswith us. They're just shouting talking points

(45:01):
and they think that makes their case. So, you know, Kentucky is
one of those states where in thelast two years especially, we've had a
ton of legislation come before the stategovernment that's anti LGBTQ, especially anti drag
and anti trans and you know,they got are our state government at the

(45:29):
moment. We have a democratic governor, but the rest of the state government
is a Republican supermajority who regularly overrideshis vetos of their hateful, awful legislation.
And all we hear from those peopleit's it's misinformation, it's talking points,

(45:55):
it's the trans boogeyman stuff. It'sand when I say I'm tired,
it's I'm tired of having to constantlyre educate people, you know, And
so a lot of times now Ijust don't And because you know, people

(46:19):
nowadays would rather dig their heels inthan be open to other perspectives. And
it is very apparent here right whereasmaybe ten years ago, I feel like
I could have maybe sat down withsome of these people and been like,
listen, this is my perspective asa member of this community. And what

(46:42):
I need you to understand is thisis what we are up against, and
this is what we are struggling with. And there could be some hope there
that those people would be like,oh, okay, wait a minute,
maybe I'm not right in what I'mthinking. But now now, now,

(47:02):
the culture war thing that the governments, that the media, that social media
have like drummed up has made itimpossible for us to break through to these
people and say you are hurting us, you are killing us, and they

(47:29):
don't hear it, and they don'tthey are righteous in their opinions that they
got from a YouTube video. Well, we are actively saying our children are
dying in Kentucky right now because youcan't stop listening to Joe Rogan long enough

(47:53):
to see that. What is thestatistic now, it's like one in five
trends youth attempts to a side rightthat, like not even not even wanting
to sit and have that conversation.I think that's where that breakdown is.
Like she mentioned, you know,before she could see that being an option,

(48:17):
but now and I think it's evenworse now with it being a rural
area because we're right here in atri state and so all year, you
know, starting in January. That'ssomething else. The LGBTQ plus community is
very apparent and aware of that.People don't realize, you know, when
it's an election year, you knowit's going to be worse for you out

(48:39):
there in public. And the commercialsthat have been out there, in a
lot of which antidd trans most ofall of them, I would say that
is the big talking point, andthey use it as a way of protecting
children and protecting women's sports, andit is it's all just bullshit, fear

(49:06):
mongering talking points, and though unfortunatelya lot of people buy into that and
don't have the care and compassion toeven sit and listen to someone else's plight.
I mean to the point, Ihad people at work I thought were
friends of mine. I knew wherethey leaned on some things, but I

(49:27):
thought they're still good people, andone day making the comment that they their
team was going up against the MountainQueers. Okay, so instead of the
Mountaineers, I don't know, WestVirginia team. Yeah, people are gonna
make fun of that. I don'tcare. I do not watch sports.
So on West Virginia team Mountaineers,she called them the mountain queers. And

(49:55):
that was at the point where Iwas getting to where I was speaking up
more at work because it was myjob. I don't want to lose my
job. But I got to thepoint where I was like, I am
pissed off that I'm having a hugelisten to these people every single deck,
and so I spoke up and sheimmediately laughed and dismissed me and said it
was no big deal. It's justa joke, and everyone around here does

(50:17):
it, and it's that small mindmentality that stays there, and she wouldn't.
I would never have thought that her, of all people, much like
the mother and father of the younggirl that I watched grow up, I
would have always thought I could havea conversation with these people. Yeah,

(50:39):
like, Yo, that's rude,that's offensive, that's hurtful. I know
that's not you. This is possible, this is misguided, and you do
you can't. I'd like to alsopoint out that to your points about information,
I work at a library, whichmeans that I see the local newspaper

(50:59):
on my every day, and whatI see a lot of that our legislature
does not pay any attention to.Is child abuse, actual child abuse that
happens very frequently here. We haverecently a horrific case that will probably go
national of a child who is ableto escape her home and run to a
neighbor's house. The perpetrators of herabuse. Their bond is set at one

(51:23):
million dollars. Wow, and there'sa reason for it, and it's horrible.
So there's that case. There arethere's I believe some bus drivers,
some bus drivers not just one,who have been arrested for child pornography,
all cis men. You know,There's there's a teacher who was also arrested

(51:45):
and I think his trial is comingup for statutory rape. Again, these
are all sis men. And childabuse rates in Kentucky are and have been
very high. It's consistent. Yeah. And so when you have our you
know, ours politicians, our senatorsand our Kentucky representatives creating these trans boogeymen

(52:05):
and you know, talking about youknow, the horrible queers, so you
know, like acting like we're theseboogeymen coming to get them, they are
not paying attention to the very realdemographic of actual people who are in fact
hurting children every single day. It'sin our newspapers, it's in our communities,
it's in our schools, it's inour churches. And so instead of
actually addressing that problem, instead ofyou know, creating resources and you know,

(52:29):
educating the community and teaching people whatto look forward to keep our children
safe, instead they're coming for us. They're coming for the lgbtqs instead of
dealing with this very real problem thatcauses a lot of harm. These children
will be traumatized for the rest oftheir lives. And I, for one,
would love for my tax dollars togo towards prevention methods for them as

(52:51):
well as queer kids. So thatwe're actually doing something productive or actually helping
each other. We're actually being partof a community. We're actually doing worthwhile
things. We're building people up,we're taking care of each other because there
are a lot of Appalachians who do, in fact do that. We have
you know, we have Eastern Kentuckymutual Aid. We have mutual Aid tomorrow.

(53:12):
Tomorrow. The Tattoos Shop where myspouse works is doing something called Art
for Aid. It's a charity forthe people who are affected by the tornadoes
that happened in April. You know, people lost their homes, people lost
their businesses. Why aren't our legislators, you know, throwing money at that.
Why aren't we focused on real peopleand real problems? And that is
another thing that I believe makes allof us really fucking tired. There are

(53:34):
real problems that we could be tacklingtogether. But no, let's get mad
at Janet because she transitioned and literallyis not bothering anybody. It's just trying
to get the gender affirm and careshe needs to keep her mental health intact
right. And it's and when youlook at it, it's always been that
way. It is always I guaranteeyou, like you were talking about,
it's in our schools, it's inour workplace. It's everywhere as far as

(54:00):
people who are being violent abusive towardschildren that are not a part of the
LGBTQ plus community, and it hasit's been. It's in our churches,
and I guarantee you it is withinevery single family. It's there and not
being discussed, and it helps leadinto all that. I think what all

(54:29):
of y'all just said is very powerfulfor a lot of different reasons. I
think I'm pausing because it's this isa really heavy topic, and I know
our podcast likes to treat it keepit light when we can, but I
think it's important to hear this conversationbecause we're saying the things that everybody knows

(54:55):
but doesn't want it right. There'sa reason every single Order SVU episode has
some white dude be the perpetrator.Yeah, and nobody bats an eye at
that, And that's on national mediabecause unfortunately we know it's the truth.
Same with the FBI shows and theKiller shows. A lot of times they're

(55:16):
white dudes, and it's I wastalking with Sean literally right before you guys,
and his episode's going to come outbefore this, and one of the
big topics we were talking about ispolarization. And I want to say this
because somebody people are going to getmad when we release this episode, and
that's okay, But I want totalk about polarization because Hollywood, you were

(55:42):
talking about earlier with people won't sitdown and have a conversation. The groups
that you were talking about is apolarized group where people feel like everything's black
and white. It's either your evilor you're good. And there's no in
between, and it's important to normalizethese discussions. And as I talked to
beforehand about politics, even is becausethese aren't these big scary things that like

(56:07):
should be just one or the other. There are things that need to be
talked about, right, And ifwe come back to this period where we
can stop polarizing the issues and bringit back to the gray area and just
have a conversation. There was anarticle I once read as You're never supposed
to sit down and talk to someoneto convince them of your point of view.

(56:28):
You're sitting down to talk to themto just educate them on your point
of view. So every time Ihave a conversation with someone, if they
disagree with me, that's totally okay. And I might not agree with them
either. Actually on this podcast,I had an episode I verbally disagreed with
this point of view on with addictionand stuff like that. But we need

(56:51):
to have that conversation for that understanding, right, And if we shut that
out, that's where we get thispolarization. And personally, from a mental
health perspective, we see this angerin this hate and this pain and suffering
and the reality and I talked aboutthis with Sean is there's so many of

(57:14):
these issues that affect all of us. I think DEAs you're getting to the
point is unfortunately, there's probably someonein everybody's family that's an abuser, and
they talk about it on these fakeshows, but in real life, the
most likely perpetrator for sexual abuse isa family member you know, and or
child abuse. I personally know someoneand this is relevant in any city,

(57:37):
but maybe even more relevant than Appalachia. But I personally know someone who knows
a child that's being actively abused inthe systems not working for them, and
she even threw money at it,and still they are putting that child back
with the abuser. And I'm notsaying that it's any one person's fault,
none of us are saying that.But what is required is to have these

(57:58):
conversations to hope of lisicit change,even if it's one step at a time,
even if it's all y'all means alland that's what you're doing because that's
within your experience scope. I thinkit's important that everybody has this conversation with
someone in their life, whether it'sabout the the LGBTQ community, whether it's
about child abuse, whether it's aboutpolitics, because if we don't talk about

(58:20):
it, it gets worse. Yep, and we continue to be divided.
And you can have different point ofviews and not hate each other. And
I think, for me, likethis is anybody who knows me, I
volunteered all my life. I've donedisaster response for literally I just hit my

(58:42):
fifteen year mark. And one ofthe things I was just talking about Sean
with is he's religious, and clearlyhe's an example of not everybody in the
religious community is an awful person.And he's like, I love that we
can just all come together and justkneel and just we're different people. And
one of the reasons I love disasterresponse, as horrible as that sounds,

(59:04):
is because when a disaster happens,nobody gives a shit about your title,
your color of your skin, ifyou'r LGBTQ. I have seen the most
miraculous people work together. I sawa dude who lost everything in his life
come volunteer because he was the rightthing to do and he wanted purpose in
life. And I say disaster responsespecifically because when you take everything away,

(59:29):
literally everything away, we get backto the humanity of it. Is that
we're all fucking people ye in thesame world together, and you take that
hate away, and it's hard tosee that hate when all of a sudden,
y'all lost all your shit together,right, And I think we need
to like I don't want a disastershappen anybody, but we need to remember

(59:52):
that part of it, Like,we're all human, and that means the
lesbian queer community AND's gay queer communityis human. That means if you're a
person of color, you're a human. I was just listening to a book
called Myth of Normal and I wastalking about people of color and that race
is a construct. The color ofyour skin is no different than the shape

(01:00:14):
of your nose. Absolutely well,I think, even on a smaller scale
than disaster response. Like so,when the pandemic first started, right okay,
right before COVID hit and we hadto shut everything down, we had

(01:00:35):
a Pride meeting to which a atthe time, a Republican candidate for commission
came to our Pride meeting seemingly tocourt our vote, which as a nonprofit
we can't endorse anyone anyway, Butshe had never been to a Pride event

(01:01:02):
or meeting prior, and it waspretty clear what her motivation was. And
at that meeting she handed us acheck for one hundred dollars for Ashon Diode,
which didn't feel great again because itwas pretty clear what her motivation was.

(01:01:22):
Now, I'm sure that Sean mentionedin his episode that our local commission
race is nonpartisan, so even thoughwe all knew her views on things,
you know, she was trying tocourt our vote because it's a nonpartisan race.

(01:01:42):
Right after that, and I'm talkingthree days later, the world shut
down and we as an organization wereno longer able to hold in person meetings
or events or whatever. So weas a board decided, okay, how
can we support our community during thistime, and not just the queer community,

(01:02:07):
but our local community because we area community organization and you know,
Kashina and I were both there forthe very first Pride meeting. And one
of the things that that the tenantsof our organization that I at least try
to always keep in mind when we'reorganizing things, is we're a community organization.

(01:02:30):
Yes, we are a apple AchianTry State community organization. We are
built to support the LGBTQ community inthis area and it's allies because that support
was not there previously, So weas an organization decided to take what little

(01:02:55):
money we have, and we neverhave enough money. If anyone wants to
sponsor Ashland Pride, please send mea message. And we partnered with Eastern
Kentucky Mutual Aid, which had foundedright around that time, and we worked

(01:03:15):
together as two organizations to provide moneyand groceries for local community members who could
not leave their houses because of thepandemic, who could not afford groceries because
they lost their jobs. So wetook that one hundred dollars quote unquote bribe

(01:03:40):
money that that Republican candidate gave us, and we turned around and used it
to feed community members who reached outto us or reached out to EKY Mutual
Aid and asked for help. Andever at any point did we stop and

(01:04:01):
say like, okay, but howdo you feel about LGBTQ issues. It
was never about that, brus Itwas you need groceries, send us your
list, And I personally delivered groceriesto people who would probably vote against my
rights today. But that's you know, the that's where we're coming from.

(01:04:29):
And I get frustrated talking to peoplewho are on the opposite side of this
topic or whatever, because to them, it's they're playing devil's advocate. They're
talking about politics, they're talking aboutlegislation. To me, I'm looking at
them thinking, I don't know howto explain to you how to give a

(01:04:50):
shit about other people. I can'tteach you that. And that's the stark
difference. So you got you gettingme all fired up, and the stark
difference between the people who are constantlyand and there are people who are against

(01:05:11):
us who don't do or say anything, but there are a few bad actors
who repeatedly like to have their voicesheard about how angry it makes them that
our organization exists. Oh my god, Alex, when we brought drag queens
to Ashland, oo, y'all gottabe stripped in there? Oh my god,

(01:05:33):
it was. They're gonna be strippingin a local restaurant in front of
children. They're gonna be giving threeyear olds lap dances. They're gonna and
I had to have multiple, multiplemeetings with the city to assure the city
because these people were emailing the commissionerssaying, we're gonna get you what unelected

(01:05:59):
or you won't be if you letthis happen. Not the commissioners had nothing
to do with it. It's aprivate business. But whatever. I had
to have multiple meanings. I hadto leave work and have multiple meetings with
the city to assure them that thelocal drag performers would not in fact be
giving lap dances to children at elevenam on a Sunday in a public restaurant,

(01:06:21):
like or removing their clothes right,or touching anyone right. Here's the
education on how gays don't do brunchright, right, right, If anything,
we're better at brunch than most people. Yeah, so like and still
fully closed, right exactly, andoh my god. And so it's like

(01:06:45):
the frustration for me anyway comes fromus continually giving and giving and giving,
no matter who you are. AndI will continue to do that until I
can't do it anymore. Either I'dburn out or I'd die. It could
go either way at any day atthis point. But I will continue to

(01:07:09):
deliver groceries to people. I don'tcare what church they go to, I
don't care who they vote for.If that person needs groceries and our organization
can provide that for them, Iwill be there, But those people would
push me in front of a busif fucking Tucker Carlson told them that that's

(01:07:30):
what they need to be doing.And they'll say that's an exaggeration, right,
but come on, there's a currentcommissioner candidate who would one push me
in front of a bus if shehad the chance. We're laughing a little
bit over here because Holly's heeded.And for our listeners, if you don't

(01:07:54):
know what a drag brunch or dragis it has, please be educated.
Go look it up. Like it'snot stripping, it's not, it's not
lack dances. Go to your localstrip club for those things. And it
doesn't involve children. To Sheena's point, she sees the actual articles of children
being harmed coming across her desk atthe library, and it is not anything

(01:08:15):
to do with drag. Dry queensaren't doing it, yep, exactly.
So statistically queer people aren't doing it, yeah in drag or not sorry and
so in mustop Yellen. And notonly that, but it's not the queer
community. But then so it's somethingI think that we haven't talked about enough.

(01:08:42):
And it probably is because, likeKashina said, as of right now,
she is the only person of colorthat is a part of the Pride
organization. They're they're out there,they're here, they're here, we know
they're here. They're everywhere, We'reeverywhere. But yeah, is it they

(01:09:03):
don't feel safe because this is asmall area and what they see already that
people go through, but you addthat intersectionality to it. People a queer
person of color, may you know, not neurotypical and what have you?

(01:09:24):
We have an episode about neurotypical bythe way, nice sweet, nice,
But and looking at that, thelooking at the stats on the people that
do commit various different you know,violence, whatever use gets children, and
then you look at the queer community, specifically black trans women and the rate

(01:09:48):
at which they are murdered far outways, far out ways, any any
harm that the community does. LikeI think at the end of the day,
we talked a lot about in differentcommunities here. I think what we're

(01:10:11):
saying is that we want to betreated equally and fairly. And I think
sometimes hear the people hear that phrasebecause it has been polarized, equal and
fair and I think going but wayback to the interracial marriage, what you
are equal and fair because we desegregatedyou and we allowed you to marry.

(01:10:31):
And that doesn't mean it's equal andfair because we just set eight hundred other
things that is still occurring today intwenty twenty four that is not safe or
equal or fair for any of thosecommunities. And I think to Holly's point

(01:10:53):
in her queer Rage, that's mywrestling name. So that's the best real
cleer racha we need that. Shewants people to give a shit, and
I think it's hard when we're givenalgorithms from social media or the media is

(01:11:16):
polarizing it intentionally to get views andclicks and whatever. The book I just
mentioned, the Myth of Normal byGabor Matte, it talks about trauma and
some other things. I'm big inthis mental health, dealing with my own
mental health and trauma. But ittalks about how there's literal psychologists and neuroscientists

(01:11:44):
that work in marketing to basically fuckus up so we buy more shit and
click more buttons and do stuff tomake profit. And one of the phrases
he uses in that book is it'snot that they want people to die,
if they just don't give a shitif people die buying their product. And
I'm saying this because as much aswe're having this really authentic and real conversation

(01:12:09):
here, what's in front of ourface most the time. Social media,
even some of the media we haveon TV, which is now trying to
radicalize to compete with social media andthe algorithms, is designed to make us
feel a certain way where we hateeach other because it gets people more money.
And at the end of the day, most of the people listening to

(01:12:30):
this podcast or the person down thestreet that hates you isn't making any of
that damn money, but they're stillhating you, right it. It's designed
to do that. It's also designedto make us hate each other, so
we are not paying attention to thebigger problem, yes, continued systemic racism
in this country, and the continueddiscrimination and awful treatment of disabled people in

(01:12:58):
this country, and the child abustrates in Kentucky, and the you know,
extermination of people in Gaza and allof that, because I'm too busy
fucking Facebook fighting with a commissioner candidatewho's posting Bible quotes and calling us what
does she call us, socialist communistsdestroyers of Western liberty? Because we painted

(01:13:21):
a mural downtown, a mural witha message of unity. So I did
love for us to get to apoint where we see something like this mural.
By the way, it says lovecan build a bridge. It has
a white hand holding a black hand, and there are these beautiful flowers flanking

(01:13:42):
them on both sides. It wouldbe so wonderful if we get to a
point where someone sees that and thinksthat's really nice, instead of trying to
find something to get angry about.There's nothing to get angry about in that
mural. It was in a laborof love between our sister organization Ashland for
Change and our organization Ashleon Pride,and also the community members who took time

(01:14:03):
out of their day to volunteer andhelp us paint it. That is what
we would like also, is forpeople to see the labors that we do,
the things that we do out oflove for other people, and accept
it is just that it's nothing toget angry about. It's not a danger
to anyone. It's what we dobecause we care about our community and we

(01:14:23):
want people to be safe and wewant people to feel loved. The end,
I mean, none of that.That's your job, but like,
yeah, but no, but sheknows very much, very She's much more
succinct than I am. I'm justrage. No. I think that's a
good way to close out. Wetalked about some very important and multiple heavy

(01:14:46):
topics because at the end of theday, you've been using intersectionality a lot.
But it's not just one issue.It's not just people of color,
it's not just able bodied people anddis people. It's not just the LGBTQ
community. This is happening over andover and over again to different communities,

(01:15:08):
and at the end of the day, I think the important thing is walking
away if you listen to this podcast, whether it made you mad for justice
or mad because you don't agree,Whether it made you sad because these are
some scary things that we're talking about. Whether it made you happy that Holly
is now the queer rage who's goingto go on to WWE. I would

(01:15:32):
like you to walk away today andhave a conversation with someone that may be
a little bit tough and ask aquestion, just to understand their perspective and
not to change their mind, becauseat the end of the day, maybe
you don't love me, that's fine, but at least listen to me and
understand my perspective, and I'll understandyours. Have some respect. Yeah yeah,

(01:15:55):
all right, well I really appreciateall through of you being on today
with Sean's episode, we're really stirringthe pot. But who all right,
if you just listen to this,go take like a breather for ten minutes.
I'm really sorry for yelling. Ithought it was adorable, Like I

(01:16:15):
really mean, I'm a cute yeller, but like I'm really sorry for you.
I'm sorry, sorry everyone, andwe're stirring is actually just very flavorful
and just it's meant to be anice e roma to clough right down.
But yes, Coke, step awayfrom my rage and take take a breather,

(01:16:38):
maybe touch some grats. I'm gonnago touch some grass. But that's
the point of my podcast is Iwant to have these authentic, tough conversations.
And that's what you did, becauseyou had an authentic and tough conversation
because that's real life and that's whatthat's what it's sensitive is all about.
Where if you're to normalize being fuckingvan and went back anything