April 3, 2025 • 34 mins
"In Essentials: Unity; In Non-Essentials Liberty; In All Things Love/ Charity" - The Moravian Motto
We have Rev. James Heroux of Glenwood Moravian Church come on to the pod to talk about and do a Q&A about the Moravians and why they are called the Easter People. Tyler shows up partway through due to a dog training appointment.
We do remote episodes primarily on discord and all in person episodes in studio
https://www.glenwoodmoravian.org/
https://www.sbmoravian.org/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG0Uyrn-rBJaMyqgQzahPAg (Glenwood Moravian)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPCD-8hg4kyK7FqqU3oKeNA (Sturgeon Bay Moravian Church)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJrICFrG1bj1TqwdIzPdwA (Home Moravian)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ3soqy0VecGZcz_bTfrINg (Moravian Church in Jamacia)
https://www.youtube.com/c/MemorialMoravianChurch (Memorial Moravian)
We have Rev. James Heroux of Glenwood Moravian Church come on to the pod to talk about and do a Q&A about the Moravians and why they are called the Easter People. Tyler shows up partway through due to a dog training appointment.
We do remote episodes primarily on discord and all in person episodes in studio
https://www.glenwoodmoravian.org/
https://www.sbmoravian.org/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCG0Uyrn-rBJaMyqgQzahPAg (Glenwood Moravian)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPCD-8hg4kyK7FqqU3oKeNA (Sturgeon Bay Moravian Church)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJrICFrG1bj1TqwdIzPdwA (Home Moravian)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ3soqy0VecGZcz_bTfrINg (Moravian Church in Jamacia)
https://www.youtube.com/c/MemorialMoravianChurch (Memorial Moravian)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back to Let's Chat with Brandon Tyler. Tyler had
to go take care of a quick little dog appointment
involving it's like dog training thing, so he'll show up
in a bit. Today we have another guest, this being
(00:27):
Reverend James Hero of Glenwood Moravian Church.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hey Brandon, thanks for having me on. It is great
to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
So we have like obviously this is a fledgling podcast
right now and we're playing on having a grow eventually.
But I know everyone who will be listening to this
in the future and who listened to the currently are
wondering who are in the world are the Moravians and
why are they called the Eastern people?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hence the episode of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, they would not be alone and having that question
the amount of times people have heard that I'm a
Moravian and then yes, the follow up is what is
a Morabian. We are one of the oldest, if not
the oldest, Protestant denomination. We go back to the fourteen
(01:22):
hundreds with an early movement that was breaking away from
the Catholic Church, and we've stayed a pretty small church
since then, but through the years made their way from
the Czech Republic modern day Tech Republic to Germany and
then to a couple of settlements in the United States
(01:42):
in the seventeen hundreds and from there continued mission movements
that now is the worldwide Moravian Church, where most of
modern day Moravians are in Southern Africa. Very small here
in the United States, but it's booming in South the
(02:04):
southern part of Africa. Tanzania specifically has a lot of
Moravians today.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And why are they called the Eastern People Exactly? I
know I'm a part of the same denomination. I go
to the church that you're the pastor at, but still.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Right, so there's I think there's two main reasons why
we linked to the name of being Easter People. I
think it originates from the there's a community in here
and Hoot, Germany. That's where the Aravians had a spiritual renewal.
I kind of took them from a place of feeling
(02:41):
like they were fading away and maybe disappearing to going
across the globe and that community in here and Hoot
for Eastern Mourning would gather in the cemetery and have
their Easter morning service. There really celebrating what we believe
in the resurrection and the new life that faith in
(03:04):
Jesus brings. So the tradition around Easter is very important
to us. Cemetery services for sunrise many Moravian churches have
a brass parked to it with trumpbones and trumpets playing
as the sunrises. So we really enjoy our Easter service
(03:27):
a special thing for us. But we're Easter people because
we approach every every time of worship as if it
was its own mini version of Easter. We preach and
teach and live in the good News of Easter morning.
(03:47):
A lot of other churches will really focus on Old
Testament laws and rules and creeds. We tend to not.
It's not that that doesn't matter, but we tend not
to focus on that as much as living into the
hope and the good news of Easter. That's where we
(04:10):
are and that's where we try to explore our faith from.
So we're Easter people because every day should have something
that leads to the hope and the life that is
Jesus rising from the grave and bringing us new life.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And when you mentioned Hernhut, that's where Zinzendorf did his
whole like helped with the whole revival, and he gave
the Moravians protection. He was a very interesting dude.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
He was, yeah, from a German nobleman count in Lindorf,
welcoming Aravian refugees onto his estate, allowing them to kind
of form a community there, and then he was so
interested in them, moved by them that he became a
(05:02):
leader for them and a real key figure in inspiring
them to not just focus on this little intentional community
that they have, but to take what they experienced there
and literally go across the globe with it. Under his leadership,
(05:24):
helped what was one of the greatest mission movements in
Christian history. Just really a bold sending of people to
share the gospel and share the good news. And that
was a big part of that. Wisdenzendorf And in his
belief in the Moravians.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, and I believe he either started and remained a
Lutheran or started as a Lutheran and then swapped over
to the Moravians, if at my correct. I wrote I
read a book of Ons and Zorf when I was
recovering from well the main port I recovery from knee surgery.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
That was I was like, oh, this is a good book.
Oh my goodness, he is intense.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Dude, you are not wrong. Yeah, he grew up Lutheran,
but eventually he did become and I don't know if
there was an official but yeah, he was definitely Moravian
towards towards the end of his life. And his his
(06:27):
wife was also a key figure in the Moravian Church too,
and in terms of empowering and encouraging women to positions
of leadership, she was a big part of what kind
of established an importance of celebrating and lifting women up benigna.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And before and then, like people were wondering, like was
there a guy who started off the Moravians. That guy's
name is John Huss, and that movement and the Merivin
denomination is all essentially started one hundred years before the
Protestant Reformation, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
We braced our spiritual roots to John Huss, who was
a Catholic priest in the Czech Republic. He was a
professor at the University of Prague, and he started to
have some frustrations with some practices in the Catholic Church
and was very vocal about them and became a real
(07:31):
problem for the church and the ex community excommunicated him,
threatened him with punishment and death if he wouldn't recant
what he was teaching, and he believed so firmly that
the church needed to change that he wasn't willing to
take back what he said. He felt like he was
(07:53):
preaching the good Word, and he didn't feel like he
was wrong, so he wouldn't recant. They burned him at
the state and the Hussites who followed John Husk continued
on and some of their disciples made their way to
founding the Unity of the Brethren in Kunwald. Gregory, the patriarch,
(08:17):
was the one who followed the teachings of hus I
think it was about fifty years after his death when
the church was officially formed, but it spent some time
moving and trying to survive as the Catholic Church tied
to squash their movement. They were in exile and hiding,
(08:38):
but eventually were able to establish a church that reflected
the vision that he had.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And the next question would be how did you become
a pastor? Like the whole journey from undergrad figuring out something,
going off to seminary.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Sure, yeah, so I grew up. We grew up at
the same church at work, very much good same home
pastor because Pastor Matt's been there for ever nearly thirty
years now, yeah he has, it's been a while.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
But stood underneath him too, I believe for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah yeah, And like many kids who went through that church,
we really looked up to Pastor Matt, and as when
I was a junior high high school kid just just
kind of gravitated toward him and was always interested in
the work that he did. And there was just a
flicker in the back of my mind of like, well,
(09:40):
maybe that's something I could do after school. And it
never really progressed from there. But I went to undergrad
at University of Wisconsin Stevens Point. I got a business
administration degree because that was broad enough and vague enough
to do something, and I didn't really have an idea
(10:03):
of what that would be. But I got a job
out of school working in sales, doing the classic sales
plastic cubicle and eight to five sort of life. And
it took about four or five months before I knew
pretty firmly that I could not do that for forty
(10:25):
working years.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I was surprised I did sales for like a year
and a half, two years.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I mean, for some people it's there, it's their jam,
but man, it was not the fit for me. So
when I knew that wasn't the route, I really started thinking, Okay,
if I make a switch, what will be a sure thing?
What won't be you know, a dead end where I
feel like I'm just stuck And the thought of becoming
(10:54):
a bachelor came back around. So I called past Matt
and told him I was thinking that. I was, you know,
coming out of left field to him, saying, I'm have
this job and it's not really going well. I'm wondering
if maybe I should start seminary and become a pastor.
And after I gave him my spiel, he said, James,
(11:17):
I've been waiting for you to make this phone call
for a long time. But clearly he had some sort
of inkling, even though we've never discussed it before. So yeah,
I met. For about half a year. I shadowed pastor Matt,
was kind of an unofficial intern for him, went on
visits with him, helped with youth group, helped with worship leadership.
(11:39):
While I was applying for seminary and going through that process,
and the more I did with Matt, the more it
felt like it was a really good fit, like it
was something I was meant to do. And then got
accepted the seminary. The Moravian Seminary in the United States
is in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and so I rolled enrolled there
(12:02):
in twenty fifteen. And that was. Nowadays, with the advent
of COVID and distance learning, you can get your endiv
from wherever you are. But we were still in the
class where going to seminary ment moving to Bethlehem. So
I moved out there for three years, getting my Masters
(12:22):
of Divinity before graduating.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And that is Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
If people were wondering where that is, because there's various
different Bethel Hums around the world.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yes, not the Bethelehem. I had to make that correction
a couple of times with friends who were curious where
I landed for a little while.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yep, and hey, Tyler, welcome in.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Helloday I was at a training with the dog.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
All good, all good. Good to be with you, Yes,
good to be with you.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
What has Brandon s as of right now?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I've gone over John Hussins Inzendorf. Who are the Maravians,
why they're the Eastern people things, and then James route
into seminary in two becoming a pastor. Okay, anyways, like wait,
tell her you have a question fro him before I
ask him another.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Yeah, how long have you been a pastor?
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I have been ordained. It will be seven years this summer.
I've spent five years serving Freedom Moravian, which is in
a little town just about ten minutes north of Appleton, Wisconsin,
the small country church up there. And then my wife
and I moved to Madison in November of twenty twenty
(13:45):
three to start serving here at Glenwood. So it'll be
seven years this summer.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And when you started at Glenwood the same day I intend.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
My first service there.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Oh really wow?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah I remember that specifically. It was interesting because they're like, yeah,
we got a new pastor. I was like I saw.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
I never it was just my chance you were just
it was literally.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Just by sheer chance that happened. Because when I found that,
I'm like, wow, it's like everyone from like college and
growing up in Sturgeon Bay just is everything's just kind
of converging. In the medicine area.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Right, and it was a it was a trombone Sunday,
so you had the brass music going. That was That
was a good first Sunday to stroll in for.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh, that was yeah, indeed it was.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
I got another question. So I was raised Catholic. I
was baptized twice, communionized once, and comfort confirmed once. I
believe that there are spirits, angels, demons out there, as
so does the Catholic faith. Do you have your own
(14:55):
angels and demons in Meruvian.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
We I don't think the Moravian Church has. Uh.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, I think the same ones as the Catholics do.
I believe. I could be wrong.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
It's not something we talk about often, but but it's
definitely uh in the In the Moravian Church, it is
a very kind of spiritual and heart led faith.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
So whatever personal experience as someone has is it's kind
of part of their spiritual journey. And yeah, I don't
know if we have an official understanding that we we
draw from, but we certainly sit and listen with each
(15:53):
person's experience to walk with whatever they might be be
going going through, whether that's as you said, angels or
feelings of demons, it's it's definitely stuff that that takes
place within our faith, but it's not something we have
official doctrine or language for.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
The Moravian faith is very simple. For example, I'd like
to say Pastor Matt Gavi as sermon and said, like, well,
other denominations have these long confessions of faith, like Moravians
have it down to three words.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Jesus is Lord. That's it.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, we we certainly are not. We We do not
have a long list of freed or confessions of faith.
It is very much leaning on the simple side of
being inspired by Jesus and hoping to translate his life
(16:58):
somehow in our own and part of our One of
the few official documents we have came out of the
community in herod Who when they were with Insendorf, something
called the Covenant of Christian Living, which is pretty much
how do we relate to one another as Christians and
live in community with each other. But part of the
(17:21):
statement they made refers to it refers to our approach
to scripture, and there's a line in there that says
we decline to determine as binding what Scripture has left undetermined.
So really an official way of saying we don't know
(17:42):
about a great many things, and we're not interested in
pretending like we have the answers. So it's it's a
hard thing. It's a follow Jesus thing, and it's not
so much getting to a level of a perfect faith
with creeds and compassions that we try to write.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And it's it's like we believe all that stuff exists
and is real.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's just we just don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, yep, I think, especially when it comes to interpretating
the Bible, Aravians are across the entire spectrum of There
are some Arabians who who have a scientific view of
the Bible that this is, this is literal, this is
(18:33):
exactly how things happened, and every story is is exact,
and other Moravians will say, you know, it's it's poetry,
it's it's meant to teach us something. There's exaggeration, and
we're we're all Moravians. But we we can hold those
differences as long as we can, you know, work with
(18:58):
one another. Being community, we leave space for pretty pretty
serious differences in opinion and belief. So yeah, that's that's
one of the things I really enjoy about being Arabian
is that we have room for disagreement that so far
have not been deal breakers. We haven't split into semperate
(19:20):
churches over some of these differences.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, and like other denominations have. So here's a here's
a good question for you. Uh So, just and a
little bit background for the listeners. The Moravians are rooted
in pastism. So when I know that the Hussite Wars
were a thing, they posts Martyrdom of John Husk, But
due to the passism, was it more of a genocide
(19:45):
or were they literal battles that happened post a martyrdom?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
They were, I mean the Hussite wars were, Yeah, they
they were wars that the high sites were definitely active
in fighting they put up I think from what I
can remember, they put up more of a resistance than
the the Catholic Church expected. But yeah, our our claim
(20:13):
to pacifism is is pretty uh idyllic. We hope to
be pacifists, but that certainly has not been the reality
in in the history of our church. There have been
some lemmishes where we've lost sight of that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, most definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And it's it was like, I know, there was a
genocide like during that near the end of the Revolutionary
war somewhere in there.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
But in the beginning, Yeah, I like I looked at that.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I was like, like, was it self defense?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Possibly?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Right, Yeah, there is. They were definitely, at least for
the high sites, they were definitely targeted and under threat.
So but yeah, there there was. It may be the
one you're referencing. Well, I'm not sure there was a
community in Ohio the Maravians.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I can't pronounce the full name of it.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I think, yeah, that could be wrong about that, but yeah,
there was some quite horrific violence between the Moravians and
the Indigenous and the indigenous people there that does not
uh look great for our Moravian history for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And then another one for you is last year the
Bible sales were up twenty two percent. A good portion
of those were new purchases. Some of them were people
wanting new copies, are different translation, and Christiana has actually
been on the rise. Like where you see a line there,
There was an article a while ago where I don't
know if it was a while ago for it was
a couple weeks or something like that. Either way, it
(22:04):
was like you see this line going downwards for Christianity
in the US, and then it just stopped, and Christianity
for the most part has been on the rise again,
except it's mostly been in the Orthodox and Catholic churches,
And turns out a lot of these young people are
looking for traditionalism. So for people who are looking to
join a church or a place to explore their faith,
(22:25):
why would they want to check out the Moravian Church
rather than a Catholic or Orthodox.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Well, a lot will depend on their I guess previous
faith experience, what they might be used to or comfortable with,
because some people certainly do appreciate the traditions and customs
of a certain denomination over another. But I'd say the
(22:54):
appeal to the Moravian Church that someone who's seeking a
faith community something they might find the Aravian Church is
a great place to ask questions, to wrestle with belief
and doubt, to be a completely unfinished product, and it's
(23:19):
something that we we say publicly and in my experiences
of various Moravian churches, the setting is is very welcoming
and very inclusive for people who might have something about them,
whether that's their race or gender or sexual orientation, they
(23:45):
might have something where they are thinking something about me.
Is classic to be rejected or criticized by the church,
whatever that assumption might be. And in my experience that
that has not been the case in Moravian setting. The
Moravian Church is hauppy that you walk through the door
(24:10):
and will accept you as you are. I think that's
the big thing that at least here in our congregation,
that has been something that a younger crowd is starting
to see and really lean into that whatever baggage the
word church has, it might not be a reality. If
(24:32):
you check out a Moravian church, might be pleasantly surprised
that fears of judgment or or rules isn't really the
setting that we that we exist in.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
No, And like I was, I think I was in
sales when it's myself when I was like, wow, I
kind of missed going to church and I started taking
my faith more seriously.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
When I was younger.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
It wasn't nearly as serious. And that's when I got
in some level of interest in theology. So like early
church stuff and who these guys were, how do they
believe things? More like their backtees and autobiographies, and of
course the councils and creeds written from like early church
(25:21):
before the great schism.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And all that. And when I.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Walked into Glenwood and then you had a I think
you had a sermon or a story about people greeting
each other as brother and sister, and then everyone treated
each other like that at Glenwood, which is a very
nice experience. I'm one who loves the community atmosphere of
a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
You don't get that a lot anymore.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, that I think that is one of the gifts
of the Gradian churches in the United States, particular the
we're generally small congregations.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, it's always done like that, Like I think, I
think it was Zinzendorf Fucker a different book that I
read where for a long time, like the general populations
of the Arabians were around like five hundred some thousand
mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah. And like you, like you said, the community aspect,
I think there's there's part of us that we see
x amount of people in worship if it's forty or fifty,
and you know, our hope, you know, our dream is
that the pews are full and that we're you know,
(26:43):
overflowing with people than the church is doing really well,
which would be wonderful. Yeah, But the the close knit
aspect and a lot of smaller I think we grew
up at at Surgery Moray in which is a church
of three hundred four hundred people, and it was.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Like that one down like one hundred two hundred. Okay,
it could be wrong.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
The there's there's something to the community being a little
smaller that people really they know each other well, they
know what is going on in their lives, and you
really feel seen. When it's a group that's small, they
really look after each other. And it could be something
(27:34):
that you start to lose once the numbers go way
way up there there might be a feeling that you're
just one in the crowd. But that certainly is not
the case in many Bravian churches because we are pretty small.
We're quite small.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, hence why a lot not a lot of people
know about us? And then I know I have one
more question on my little less of Do you know
how the Moravians got in trined with music and why
the two are considered and separable? I got this question
after I played a piece called Moravian Polka with the
some Prairie community band.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So, how how is or how is music and the Moravian.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Turns are so intertwined. Basically, I poorly typed up the
questions and I had a little aero andex to and
maybe ask this, maybe.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, it really is something we take a lot of
pride in. It might go back to I mean we,
through the work of John huts Are, we were the
first denomination to make a hymnal for congregational singing. That
(28:48):
was part of translating the Bible into the native language
of of whatever group is there. So congregational singing was
something that kind of gained momentum through the very early Moravians,
and Vinzendorf also, along with his vision or mission work,
(29:10):
he was a prolific him writer and would write lyrics
of lyrics for some of their more popular tunes. And
then I don't know enough specifically about where our affinity
towards brass comes from. I know it's it probably has
(29:33):
something to do with that initial practice of having an
Eastern morning service in the cemetery and the brass band
was there, so maybe it just kind of was cemented
from that. But if if you're talking Moravian music and
you're really looking into it, you are most often going
(29:54):
to come across wonderful brass music. And I don't know
specifically how that became overthing, but it's certainly a really
important part of a lot of Arabian worship is incorporating
brast and hearing the Glenwood won the month we have
(30:16):
our trombone choir play.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And that third Sunday of each month.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yep, yeah, and the people here, just the choir here
has been going for over forty years and the church
just just loves it. It's such a nice and an
appreciated service every month when the trombone choir is there.
And the cool thing about the trombone choir is if
(30:44):
there's twelve or fourteen people playing any given Sunday, I
think five or six of them at most are Moravians.
It's a very ecumenical group, which is just a perfect
requestion of the Moravian Church that we get along well
(31:06):
with others. So the fact that the drombone Choir had
such a variety of faith backgrounds is just appropriate in
many ways.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I really enjoy that well, Like I got sucked into
playing in that group shortly after I got out of
sales and started working at iHeart as VICKI mcckennonth's producer.
And then of course in February we're going to have
me wheel my tube in so we can play down
in the river to pray yes that gospel tune. And
then I obviously had my injury, and since I returned back,
(31:38):
I asked doctor Allison, Hey, Mike, when are we going
to play this thing? You think it's gonna be ready soon?
And he said, I don't know if he'll be right
for primetime in May, but they'll least sometime this year.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
All right, Well, we will look forward to it with
great anticipation whenever it is able to take shape.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Hell, you got any more questions for him?
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I got nothing?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Got nothing? All right? Well?
Speaker 1 (32:11):
As always, you can contact how tonight Let's chet bt
at gmail dot com, on x on the Facebook community group,
or you can follow us on the Facebook page that
we generally put our announcements on and where we share Hey,
some hero some of the upfloads for the episodes, and
(32:34):
I'll do the same thing on the X account. Also
download like follow where we need do to increase the
popularity of the podcast. Writing at five stars does help.
Any last thoughts from either of you two, just.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
It was not a good having past dreams on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, and you thank you guys for having me on.
It was great to chat, good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, no problem, of course.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
And in the description of this podcast, I will put
the YouTube channels for the Sturge main Moravian Church of
Glenwood Moravian Church and maybe a couple others. So anyone
who wants to check out a service and they're not
near Moravian Church or welcome to check out one of
the services or prayer services on the YouTube channels. Otherwise, James,
(33:27):
You're welcome to come back onto the pod whenever.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
All right, just let me know and I'll just say,
I'll just say. Our next subject will be the opening
week of baseball starting tomorrow at seven thirty pm for
our recording, and we will also be talking about the
recently uploaded Nintendo Direct and the switch to oh.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yes, that expensive monster. All right, you'll hear from us tomorrow. Everyone,
Lip
Welcome back to Let's Chat with Brandon Tyler. Tyler had
to go take care of a quick little dog appointment
involving it's like dog training thing, so he'll show up
in a bit. Today we have another guest, this being
(00:27):
Reverend James Hero of Glenwood Moravian Church.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Hey Brandon, thanks for having me on. It is great
to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
So we have like obviously this is a fledgling podcast
right now and we're playing on having a grow eventually.
But I know everyone who will be listening to this
in the future and who listened to the currently are
wondering who are in the world are the Moravians and
why are they called the Eastern people?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Hence the episode of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Well, they would not be alone and having that question
the amount of times people have heard that I'm a
Moravian and then yes, the follow up is what is
a Morabian. We are one of the oldest, if not
the oldest, Protestant denomination. We go back to the fourteen
(01:22):
hundreds with an early movement that was breaking away from
the Catholic Church, and we've stayed a pretty small church
since then, but through the years made their way from
the Czech Republic modern day Tech Republic to Germany and
then to a couple of settlements in the United States
(01:42):
in the seventeen hundreds and from there continued mission movements
that now is the worldwide Moravian Church, where most of
modern day Moravians are in Southern Africa. Very small here
in the United States, but it's booming in South the
(02:04):
southern part of Africa. Tanzania specifically has a lot of
Moravians today.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And why are they called the Eastern People Exactly? I
know I'm a part of the same denomination. I go
to the church that you're the pastor at, but still.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Right, so there's I think there's two main reasons why
we linked to the name of being Easter People. I
think it originates from the there's a community in here
and Hoot, Germany. That's where the Aravians had a spiritual renewal.
I kind of took them from a place of feeling
(02:41):
like they were fading away and maybe disappearing to going
across the globe and that community in here and Hoot
for Eastern Mourning would gather in the cemetery and have
their Easter morning service. There really celebrating what we believe
in the resurrection and the new life that faith in
(03:04):
Jesus brings. So the tradition around Easter is very important
to us. Cemetery services for sunrise many Moravian churches have
a brass parked to it with trumpbones and trumpets playing
as the sunrises. So we really enjoy our Easter service
(03:27):
a special thing for us. But we're Easter people because
we approach every every time of worship as if it
was its own mini version of Easter. We preach and
teach and live in the good News of Easter morning.
(03:47):
A lot of other churches will really focus on Old
Testament laws and rules and creeds. We tend to not.
It's not that that doesn't matter, but we tend not
to focus on that as much as living into the
hope and the good news of Easter. That's where we
(04:10):
are and that's where we try to explore our faith from.
So we're Easter people because every day should have something
that leads to the hope and the life that is
Jesus rising from the grave and bringing us new life.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And when you mentioned Hernhut, that's where Zinzendorf did his
whole like helped with the whole revival, and he gave
the Moravians protection. He was a very interesting dude.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
He was, yeah, from a German nobleman count in Lindorf,
welcoming Aravian refugees onto his estate, allowing them to kind
of form a community there, and then he was so
interested in them, moved by them that he became a
(05:02):
leader for them and a real key figure in inspiring
them to not just focus on this little intentional community
that they have, but to take what they experienced there
and literally go across the globe with it. Under his leadership,
(05:24):
helped what was one of the greatest mission movements in
Christian history. Just really a bold sending of people to
share the gospel and share the good news. And that
was a big part of that. Wisdenzendorf And in his
belief in the Moravians.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, and I believe he either started and remained a
Lutheran or started as a Lutheran and then swapped over
to the Moravians, if at my correct. I wrote I
read a book of Ons and Zorf when I was
recovering from well the main port I recovery from knee surgery.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
That was I was like, oh, this is a good book.
Oh my goodness, he is intense.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Dude, you are not wrong. Yeah, he grew up Lutheran,
but eventually he did become and I don't know if
there was an official but yeah, he was definitely Moravian
towards towards the end of his life. And his his
(06:27):
wife was also a key figure in the Moravian Church too,
and in terms of empowering and encouraging women to positions
of leadership, she was a big part of what kind
of established an importance of celebrating and lifting women up benigna.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And before and then, like people were wondering, like was
there a guy who started off the Moravians. That guy's
name is John Huss, and that movement and the Merivin
denomination is all essentially started one hundred years before the
Protestant Reformation, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
We braced our spiritual roots to John Huss, who was
a Catholic priest in the Czech Republic. He was a
professor at the University of Prague, and he started to
have some frustrations with some practices in the Catholic Church
and was very vocal about them and became a real
(07:31):
problem for the church and the ex community excommunicated him,
threatened him with punishment and death if he wouldn't recant
what he was teaching, and he believed so firmly that
the church needed to change that he wasn't willing to
take back what he said. He felt like he was
(07:53):
preaching the good Word, and he didn't feel like he
was wrong, so he wouldn't recant. They burned him at
the state and the Hussites who followed John Husk continued
on and some of their disciples made their way to
founding the Unity of the Brethren in Kunwald. Gregory, the patriarch,
(08:17):
was the one who followed the teachings of hus I
think it was about fifty years after his death when
the church was officially formed, but it spent some time
moving and trying to survive as the Catholic Church tied
to squash their movement. They were in exile and hiding,
(08:38):
but eventually were able to establish a church that reflected
the vision that he had.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And the next question would be how did you become
a pastor? Like the whole journey from undergrad figuring out something,
going off to seminary.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Sure, yeah, so I grew up. We grew up at
the same church at work, very much good same home
pastor because Pastor Matt's been there for ever nearly thirty
years now, yeah he has, it's been a while.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
But stood underneath him too, I believe for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah yeah, And like many kids who went through that church,
we really looked up to Pastor Matt, and as when
I was a junior high high school kid just just
kind of gravitated toward him and was always interested in
the work that he did. And there was just a
flicker in the back of my mind of like, well,
(09:40):
maybe that's something I could do after school. And it
never really progressed from there. But I went to undergrad
at University of Wisconsin Stevens Point. I got a business
administration degree because that was broad enough and vague enough
to do something, and I didn't really have an idea
(10:03):
of what that would be. But I got a job
out of school working in sales, doing the classic sales
plastic cubicle and eight to five sort of life. And
it took about four or five months before I knew
pretty firmly that I could not do that for forty
(10:25):
working years.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
I was surprised I did sales for like a year
and a half, two years.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I mean, for some people it's there, it's their jam,
but man, it was not the fit for me. So
when I knew that wasn't the route, I really started thinking, Okay,
if I make a switch, what will be a sure thing?
What won't be you know, a dead end where I
feel like I'm just stuck And the thought of becoming
(10:54):
a bachelor came back around. So I called past Matt
and told him I was thinking that. I was, you know,
coming out of left field to him, saying, I'm have
this job and it's not really going well. I'm wondering
if maybe I should start seminary and become a pastor.
And after I gave him my spiel, he said, James,
(11:17):
I've been waiting for you to make this phone call
for a long time. But clearly he had some sort
of inkling, even though we've never discussed it before. So yeah,
I met. For about half a year. I shadowed pastor Matt,
was kind of an unofficial intern for him, went on
visits with him, helped with youth group, helped with worship leadership.
(11:39):
While I was applying for seminary and going through that process,
and the more I did with Matt, the more it
felt like it was a really good fit, like it
was something I was meant to do. And then got
accepted the seminary. The Moravian Seminary in the United States
is in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, and so I rolled enrolled there
(12:02):
in twenty fifteen. And that was. Nowadays, with the advent
of COVID and distance learning, you can get your endiv
from wherever you are. But we were still in the
class where going to seminary ment moving to Bethlehem. So
I moved out there for three years, getting my Masters
(12:22):
of Divinity before graduating.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And that is Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
If people were wondering where that is, because there's various
different Bethel Hums around the world.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yes, not the Bethelehem. I had to make that correction
a couple of times with friends who were curious where
I landed for a little while.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, yep, and hey, Tyler, welcome in.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Helloday I was at a training with the dog.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
All good, all good. Good to be with you, Yes,
good to be with you.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
What has Brandon s as of right now?
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I've gone over John Hussins Inzendorf. Who are the Maravians,
why they're the Eastern people things, and then James route
into seminary in two becoming a pastor. Okay, anyways, like wait,
tell her you have a question fro him before I
ask him another.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Yeah, how long have you been a pastor?
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I have been ordained. It will be seven years this summer.
I've spent five years serving Freedom Moravian, which is in
a little town just about ten minutes north of Appleton, Wisconsin,
the small country church up there. And then my wife
and I moved to Madison in November of twenty twenty
(13:45):
three to start serving here at Glenwood. So it'll be
seven years this summer.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
And when you started at Glenwood the same day I intend.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
My first service there.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Oh really wow?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah I remember that specifically. It was interesting because they're like, yeah,
we got a new pastor. I was like I saw.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
I never it was just my chance you were just
it was literally.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Just by sheer chance that happened. Because when I found that,
I'm like, wow, it's like everyone from like college and
growing up in Sturgeon Bay just is everything's just kind
of converging. In the medicine area.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Right, and it was a it was a trombone Sunday,
so you had the brass music going. That was That
was a good first Sunday to stroll in for.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Oh, that was yeah, indeed it was.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
I got another question. So I was raised Catholic. I
was baptized twice, communionized once, and comfort confirmed once. I
believe that there are spirits, angels, demons out there, as
so does the Catholic faith. Do you have your own
(14:55):
angels and demons in Meruvian.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
We I don't think the Moravian Church has. Uh.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, I think the same ones as the Catholics do.
I believe. I could be wrong.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
It's not something we talk about often, but but it's
definitely uh in the In the Moravian Church, it is
a very kind of spiritual and heart led faith.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
So whatever personal experience as someone has is it's kind
of part of their spiritual journey. And yeah, I don't
know if we have an official understanding that we we
draw from, but we certainly sit and listen with each
(15:53):
person's experience to walk with whatever they might be be
going going through, whether that's as you said, angels or
feelings of demons, it's it's definitely stuff that that takes
place within our faith, but it's not something we have
official doctrine or language for.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
The Moravian faith is very simple. For example, I'd like
to say Pastor Matt Gavi as sermon and said, like, well,
other denominations have these long confessions of faith, like Moravians
have it down to three words.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Jesus is Lord. That's it.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, we we certainly are not. We We do not
have a long list of freed or confessions of faith.
It is very much leaning on the simple side of
being inspired by Jesus and hoping to translate his life
(16:58):
somehow in our own and part of our One of
the few official documents we have came out of the
community in herod Who when they were with Insendorf, something
called the Covenant of Christian Living, which is pretty much
how do we relate to one another as Christians and
live in community with each other. But part of the
(17:21):
statement they made refers to it refers to our approach
to scripture, and there's a line in there that says
we decline to determine as binding what Scripture has left undetermined.
So really an official way of saying we don't know
(17:42):
about a great many things, and we're not interested in
pretending like we have the answers. So it's it's a
hard thing. It's a follow Jesus thing, and it's not
so much getting to a level of a perfect faith
with creeds and compassions that we try to write.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
And it's it's like we believe all that stuff exists
and is real.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's just we just don't know.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, yep, I think, especially when it comes to interpretating
the Bible, Aravians are across the entire spectrum of There
are some Arabians who who have a scientific view of
the Bible that this is, this is literal, this is
(18:33):
exactly how things happened, and every story is is exact,
and other Moravians will say, you know, it's it's poetry,
it's it's meant to teach us something. There's exaggeration, and
we're we're all Moravians. But we we can hold those
differences as long as we can, you know, work with
(18:58):
one another. Being community, we leave space for pretty pretty
serious differences in opinion and belief. So yeah, that's that's
one of the things I really enjoy about being Arabian
is that we have room for disagreement that so far
have not been deal breakers. We haven't split into semperate
(19:20):
churches over some of these differences.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Yeah, and like other denominations have. So here's a here's
a good question for you. Uh So, just and a
little bit background for the listeners. The Moravians are rooted
in pastism. So when I know that the Hussite Wars
were a thing, they posts Martyrdom of John Husk, But
due to the passism, was it more of a genocide
(19:45):
or were they literal battles that happened post a martyrdom?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
They were, I mean the Hussite wars were, Yeah, they
they were wars that the high sites were definitely active
in fighting they put up I think from what I
can remember, they put up more of a resistance than
the the Catholic Church expected. But yeah, our our claim
(20:13):
to pacifism is is pretty uh idyllic. We hope to
be pacifists, but that certainly has not been the reality
in in the history of our church. There have been
some lemmishes where we've lost sight of that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, most definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And it's it was like, I know, there was a
genocide like during that near the end of the Revolutionary
war somewhere in there.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
But in the beginning, Yeah, I like I looked at that.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I was like, like, was it self defense?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Possibly?
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Right, Yeah, there is. They were definitely, at least for
the high sites, they were definitely targeted and under threat.
So but yeah, there there was. It may be the
one you're referencing. Well, I'm not sure there was a
community in Ohio the Maravians.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I can't pronounce the full name of it.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
I think, yeah, that could be wrong about that, but yeah,
there was some quite horrific violence between the Moravians and
the Indigenous and the indigenous people there that does not
uh look great for our Moravian history for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And then another one for you is last year the
Bible sales were up twenty two percent. A good portion
of those were new purchases. Some of them were people
wanting new copies, are different translation, and Christiana has actually
been on the rise. Like where you see a line there,
There was an article a while ago where I don't
know if it was a while ago for it was
a couple weeks or something like that. Either way, it
(22:04):
was like you see this line going downwards for Christianity
in the US, and then it just stopped, and Christianity
for the most part has been on the rise again,
except it's mostly been in the Orthodox and Catholic churches,
And turns out a lot of these young people are
looking for traditionalism. So for people who are looking to
join a church or a place to explore their faith,
(22:25):
why would they want to check out the Moravian Church
rather than a Catholic or Orthodox.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Well, a lot will depend on their I guess previous
faith experience, what they might be used to or comfortable with,
because some people certainly do appreciate the traditions and customs
of a certain denomination over another. But I'd say the
(22:54):
appeal to the Moravian Church that someone who's seeking a
faith community something they might find the Aravian Church is
a great place to ask questions, to wrestle with belief
and doubt, to be a completely unfinished product, and it's
(23:19):
something that we we say publicly and in my experiences
of various Moravian churches, the setting is is very welcoming
and very inclusive for people who might have something about them,
whether that's their race or gender or sexual orientation, they
(23:45):
might have something where they are thinking something about me.
Is classic to be rejected or criticized by the church,
whatever that assumption might be. And in my experience that
that has not been the case in Moravian setting. The
Moravian Church is hauppy that you walk through the door
(24:10):
and will accept you as you are. I think that's
the big thing that at least here in our congregation,
that has been something that a younger crowd is starting
to see and really lean into that whatever baggage the
word church has, it might not be a reality. If
(24:32):
you check out a Moravian church, might be pleasantly surprised
that fears of judgment or or rules isn't really the
setting that we that we exist in.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
No, And like I was, I think I was in
sales when it's myself when I was like, wow, I
kind of missed going to church and I started taking
my faith more seriously.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
When I was younger.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
It wasn't nearly as serious. And that's when I got
in some level of interest in theology. So like early
church stuff and who these guys were, how do they
believe things? More like their backtees and autobiographies, and of
course the councils and creeds written from like early church
(25:21):
before the great schism.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And all that. And when I.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Walked into Glenwood and then you had a I think
you had a sermon or a story about people greeting
each other as brother and sister, and then everyone treated
each other like that at Glenwood, which is a very
nice experience. I'm one who loves the community atmosphere of
a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
You don't get that a lot anymore.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, that I think that is one of the gifts
of the Gradian churches in the United States, particular the
we're generally small congregations.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, it's always done like that, Like I think, I
think it was Zinzendorf Fucker a different book that I
read where for a long time, like the general populations
of the Arabians were around like five hundred some thousand
mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah. And like you, like you said, the community aspect,
I think there's there's part of us that we see
x amount of people in worship if it's forty or fifty,
and you know, our hope, you know, our dream is
that the pews are full and that we're you know,
(26:43):
overflowing with people than the church is doing really well,
which would be wonderful. Yeah, But the the close knit
aspect and a lot of smaller I think we grew
up at at Surgery Moray in which is a church
of three hundred four hundred people, and it was.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Like that one down like one hundred two hundred. Okay,
it could be wrong.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
The there's there's something to the community being a little
smaller that people really they know each other well, they
know what is going on in their lives, and you
really feel seen. When it's a group that's small, they
really look after each other. And it could be something
(27:34):
that you start to lose once the numbers go way
way up there there might be a feeling that you're
just one in the crowd. But that certainly is not
the case in many Bravian churches because we are pretty small.
We're quite small.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, hence why a lot not a lot of people
know about us? And then I know I have one
more question on my little less of Do you know
how the Moravians got in trined with music and why
the two are considered and separable? I got this question
after I played a piece called Moravian Polka with the
some Prairie community band.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So, how how is or how is music and the Moravian.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Turns are so intertwined. Basically, I poorly typed up the
questions and I had a little aero andex to and
maybe ask this, maybe.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, it really is something we take a lot of
pride in. It might go back to I mean we,
through the work of John huts Are, we were the
first denomination to make a hymnal for congregational singing. That
(28:48):
was part of translating the Bible into the native language
of of whatever group is there. So congregational singing was
something that kind of gained momentum through the very early Moravians,
and Vinzendorf also, along with his vision or mission work,
(29:10):
he was a prolific him writer and would write lyrics
of lyrics for some of their more popular tunes. And
then I don't know enough specifically about where our affinity
towards brass comes from. I know it's it probably has
(29:33):
something to do with that initial practice of having an
Eastern morning service in the cemetery and the brass band
was there, so maybe it just kind of was cemented
from that. But if if you're talking Moravian music and
you're really looking into it, you are most often going
(29:54):
to come across wonderful brass music. And I don't know
specifically how that became overthing, but it's certainly a really
important part of a lot of Arabian worship is incorporating
brast and hearing the Glenwood won the month we have
(30:16):
our trombone choir play.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
And that third Sunday of each month.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yep, yeah, and the people here, just the choir here
has been going for over forty years and the church
just just loves it. It's such a nice and an
appreciated service every month when the trombone choir is there.
And the cool thing about the trombone choir is if
(30:44):
there's twelve or fourteen people playing any given Sunday, I
think five or six of them at most are Moravians.
It's a very ecumenical group, which is just a perfect
requestion of the Moravian Church that we get along well
(31:06):
with others. So the fact that the drombone Choir had
such a variety of faith backgrounds is just appropriate in
many ways.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I really enjoy that well, Like I got sucked into
playing in that group shortly after I got out of
sales and started working at iHeart as VICKI mcckennonth's producer.
And then of course in February we're going to have
me wheel my tube in so we can play down
in the river to pray yes that gospel tune. And
then I obviously had my injury, and since I returned back,
(31:38):
I asked doctor Allison, Hey, Mike, when are we going
to play this thing? You think it's gonna be ready soon?
And he said, I don't know if he'll be right
for primetime in May, but they'll least sometime this year.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
All right, Well, we will look forward to it with
great anticipation whenever it is able to take shape.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Hell, you got any more questions for him?
Speaker 4 (32:05):
I got nothing?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Got nothing? All right? Well?
Speaker 1 (32:11):
As always, you can contact how tonight Let's chet bt
at gmail dot com, on x on the Facebook community group,
or you can follow us on the Facebook page that
we generally put our announcements on and where we share Hey,
some hero some of the upfloads for the episodes, and
(32:34):
I'll do the same thing on the X account. Also
download like follow where we need do to increase the
popularity of the podcast. Writing at five stars does help.
Any last thoughts from either of you two, just.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
It was not a good having past dreams on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, and you thank you guys for having me on.
It was great to chat, good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, no problem, of course.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
And in the description of this podcast, I will put
the YouTube channels for the Sturge main Moravian Church of
Glenwood Moravian Church and maybe a couple others. So anyone
who wants to check out a service and they're not
near Moravian Church or welcome to check out one of
the services or prayer services on the YouTube channels. Otherwise, James,
(33:27):
You're welcome to come back onto the pod whenever.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
All right, just let me know and I'll just say,
I'll just say. Our next subject will be the opening
week of baseball starting tomorrow at seven thirty pm for
our recording, and we will also be talking about the
recently uploaded Nintendo Direct and the switch to oh.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yes, that expensive monster. All right, you'll hear from us tomorrow. Everyone,
Lip
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