September 23, 2025 • 53 mins
Erin West and Dr. Martina Dove are back to give us a deeper dive into pig butchering scams! Join us as we discuss the scam operations, compounds and manipulation techniques used by the scammers.
An episode you will not want to miss!
Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.
An episode you will not want to miss!
Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,
professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services
(00:23):
of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational
purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional
legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted
sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the
(00:45):
elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to
a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen
show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their
loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on
K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and
(01:06):
her guests. We'll provide valuable insights and practical tips on
how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now
here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, welcome back, everybody. I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose
Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. You can find more
information on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org. The homepage
list all of our social media channels. I'm hoping that
we're going to be back up on Facebook soon, but
(01:41):
we're on LinkedIn, Instagram YouTube. You can find all of
the episodes on our YouTube channel and on our Let's
Talk about Scams dot com website, and scroll down to
the bottom of the homepage you'll find our newsletters. You
can sign up for the email and or the mailed newsletter.
Today we are going to do a d dive into
pig butchering scams, and we have two guests. Aaron West
(02:07):
was on a few weeks ago. She's the founder of
Operation Shamrock, a global nonprofit uniting law enforcement, industry and
everyday citizens to disrupt the world's fastest growing form of
trans national organized crime, the pig butchering scams. And we
also have doctor Martina dove Back. She is the expert
(02:28):
in the psychology behind the scams with her book The
Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques, which there'll.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Be an update.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
A new volume coming out I believe in October. But
let's welcome Aaron and Martina.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Hi, guys. Once we can't forget about Steve and Steve.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Steve's here as always, as always, Steve nice So pig
butchering scams.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Aaron, you and I talked about this last month. I
don't know that we went into a whole lot of detail.
But let's the first thing I think let's talk about.
I think you mentioned before that these kind of started
in Asia.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Yeah, this is.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, it came from Southeast Asian criminals. It is a
long con. It's a romance slash investment scheme. And we've
seen plenty of romance schemes in the past. We've seen
investment schemes in the past, but this really smacked us
in the face with it's the objective, the mission is
(03:36):
to take every penny that you have, and that's why
it's so particularly dangerous.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So are a lot of the now.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I watched the movie The Beekeeper when it first came out,
and so I saw the big for a call center
right that they operated out of in this office building.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
What is it like, is.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Are they operating all of these types of call centers
out of Southeast Asia or are they in other areas
as well?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Yeah, this really started in Southeast Asia in twenty twenty,
twenty twenty one, and they are They're like call centers only.
The issue here is that the people working the scams
are for the most part human trafficked victims who didn't
realize that that's what they were coming in to do.
(04:26):
And so the scam centers look a lot like a prison.
There are big walls around the outside, there are men's
with AK forty sevens and they are sleeping six to
a room and forced to do this scamming sixteen hours
a day.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Wow, So is it you said that they didn't know
what they were signing up for? Is it more like
they thought they were applying for a job, like a
legitimate job, and then they go and in essence get kidnapped.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
That's exactly right. They some of the victims I've talked
to are you Gondon? And they say I was working
in an internet cafe making one hundred dollars a month
and a fellow you Gonden, came in and said would
you like to make a thousand dollars a month? And
he thought, I'm twenty three years old. Yeah, I would
(05:15):
like to make one thousand dollars a month, and went
through a series of interviews, did a typing test, had
every reason to believe that he was getting an official
job in Bangkok, Thailand. He flew there and when he arrived,
they took his passport, they took his cell phone, and
they essentially kidnapped him and drove him for hours on
(05:36):
end into another country. They drove him to me and
mar and brought him behind the walls of a fortress
and forced him to do his scamming.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
And what about the governments in these countries?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Do they not know this is happening?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Or do they just have so much other crime they're
trying to deal with that this isn't top on their list,
or maybe they just don't care.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Yeah, what we're seeing is that they, the organized criminals
running this, have deliberately chosen locations that are going to
be friendly to them. And by that, I mean that
they are amenable to taking bribes to allow this to
continue to happen in their jurisdiction. And that's what we
see happening, and that's what's happened in Cambodia, where we
essentially they are running a scam economy. That's what they do.
(06:27):
In Cambodia makescept sixty percent of their GDP, and in
other hot spots like me and mar those are you know,
they're in a civil war there, and so they are
different areas controlled by armed militias. And with the right
amount of payment to an armed militia, you pretty much
run any enterprise you'd like to run.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, money talks, right, Yeah, yeah, wow, that's just crazy. Actually,
last week on the I did the show on social engineering, Martina,
do you see in these pig butchering scams a lot
of social engineering?
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (07:09):
I would say, you know, first, like I just need
to comment on the fact that, you know, when you
think about it, right, like the targeting people that are
desperate for a better job, like the targeting you know,
these these human trafficking victims are victims of a fraud,
you know themselves.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
It's just like really horrible.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
But yeah, I would say the big butchering scams are
the most sophisticated that I've ever seen. They a lot
of the times, even when it's just you know, investment,
So like let's say your friends that are just talking
about investment, the way the executed is incredibly sophisticated.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
And it wouldn't surprise.
Speaker 6 (07:54):
Me that there is a psychologist or some kind of
a person that understands alogy and how people can be manipulated,
you know, just in a you know, even if you
take away what they're telling you, even if you take
away the lies, and I know I've spoken to Erin
about that. You know, don't even focus on like what
(08:14):
lies you're being told. It's not even about lies. It's
how they manipulate you by hooking you on through these
friendly conversations that become part of your life. You trust
the person who's you know, kind of conversing with you
over a period of months, and then how they subliminally
inject you to think about this, you know, kind of
(08:38):
trades and think about investments before the eventual kind of
like requests for money and the requests kind of like
the big push that we're all warning people about, right
Like when we issue these warnings, we say to people,
if somebody's pressuring you to do this, they don't pressure
the subliminary influence. And then at the end and when
(09:00):
they start pressuring you, you're so far down the line
and so invested and so confused and so manipulated that
you're just not able to see the manipulation for what
it is because it's been happening in tiny increments.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Kind of like kind of like the grooming with the
romance scam. Yes, right, yes, which is I actually talked
to a lady who her close friend has been talking
to this gentleman for six years, and she's been trying
(09:39):
to explain to her that, you know, it's a scam.
She sent some money, but she's been like planning the
wedding and all of that stuff, and it's just I
you know, I just told her, I said, you know,
it's it's tough to hear, but the longer they're in it,
the harder it is to break that spell that the
scammer has over him, because it it's a brainwashing, right.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
It's total brainwashing.
Speaker 6 (10:03):
And you know, one quote came to mind as you
were saying this. I was interviewing a victim and you know,
of a romance fraud.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
And she said, to me, he didn't ask me for anything.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
I wanted to give it to him, and like and
that that tells you everything, Like it's not you know,
we warn victims a lot about pay attention to this.
Don't send money to people who ask for money. They
don't ask for money. You just want to give it
to them because they've groomed you to the point where
you think this is your od one, right, and this
(10:35):
is somebody you trust.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Again, how they're evolving, right, realizing that people are finding
out you know, okay, well this is exactly the playbook
of what I was told, what happened, and so they're
changing things up. Yes, but that's even more dangerous, right,
those little subliminal things.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
It's very it's so dangerous. I think it's all so
like the fact that it's subliminal. You're not conscious of it,
so you can't protect yourself from it. And I think
a lot of the times I see very simplistic advice
which says, don't panic, take your time.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
It's great advice. It's great advice. I give it too.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
But you know you don't you're not panicking. You're not
conscious that you're panicking. You just know something's unsettling you
and you're acting on it. And and even just like
you know, sometimes like I think I've dived into this
with with victims as well, you know, like sometimes I
will ask really deep questions on like how this camera
(11:38):
did and what the camera did and one of the
things that comes out at some point just before they
want you to do something, suddenly there'll be.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
A period of hours where they're unreachable and.
Speaker 6 (11:50):
That'll raise your anxiety, you know, and so like even
if it's just like it's like, hey, I was at
the lunch with a colleague and I lost some time,
but it's just like that, you know, will build up
the anxiety and then you'll want to prevent another bouts
of the anxiety exactly. Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
So you're you're right.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I'm sure they have psychologists that are training the people.
You know, it's interesting from that victim side of it.
But then the other victim side of it, Aaron, you
were talking about were the people that are kidnapped and
trafficked and that's all out of fear based you know,
because I'm sure do they do they like have quotas
(12:34):
that they're supposed to make every day And is it
so many phone calls there's so much money or.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
They definitely have quotas And I think it's I love
that doctor dev is on this call today too, because
I think that the nuance that people are missing in
this is that people aren't stupid. People aren't there. They
are they have been lured in a very calculated way
down a path that's already been selected by the scammer.
(13:04):
And the more we can get people to appreciate that,
the kinder they'll be to victims. On the other side,
the human trafficking side, I often talk about the idea
that you're trying to make people do something that they
would not ever want to do. Nobody wants to falsely
make someone fall in love with you and then steal
(13:26):
from them. So to get regular, normal, kind human beings
to do that, you need to either offer them a
lot of treats or you need to make their lives
really miserable. And they do both of them. And the
violence that happens inside these scam facilities is horrendous and
(13:46):
the the I was recently I just read some reviews
of my speaking recently and someone said, oh, you should
you should put a warning on if you're going to
say what happens inside those facilities. So I won't tell you,
but the fact that they're violent to those who don't
do the work. Conversely, uh, they they offer really debaucherous
(14:12):
levels of incentive to do the work. They give them prostitutes,
they give them alcohol, they give them evenings in a
in a karaoke bar, and and so the entire, the
entire environment that they're in is so distasteful that either
(14:35):
we're offering women and wine or we're going to beat
you up for not doing your right right now.
Speaker 6 (14:41):
And so I offer, yeah, like, I just want to
offer a quick perspective here, because this is the first
time I'm hearing that that's the form of grooming. You're
desensitizing a person, you know, to be able to accept.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
The new normal.
Speaker 6 (14:57):
Right, the new normal is that you are person who
is immoral, So therefore why should you care about being
a calmer?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Yeah, that's it is. It's really sad.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And you know when when you look at it, and
if you try to put yourself in the in the
the victim, the human trafficked victims shoes, right, It's like,
if you're given a choice, I'm going to get to
go to a karaoke bar and drink, or I'm going
to be given alcohol or this, or I'm going to
(15:29):
get beat up or something more violent.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
They're going to go for this right, you.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Know, And and so that's a that's a huge incentive
do Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
It's so basic. It's the it's the treats versus versus
it's good versus bad. Like you're, yeah, you're gonna make
that decision, and they know that and they play on it.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Right.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
Yeah, Wow, that's it's very bad. Like I didn't know that.
It's it's really interesting as well. Like I think if
you are forcing somebody to do something they don't want
to do over a long period of time, you are
like probably you know, like you don't want to have
them rebel because obviously probably there's more of these people
(16:17):
that are being held against the will than there is
people and you could potentially cause a riot, right, So,
like I think, how do you now get them.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
To accept the new normal? Right? Like that?
Speaker 6 (16:29):
That's so like I'm pretty sure there's like psychological.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Ways of how they groom.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
The people that have to do this work and what
psychological damage that leaves once they escape as well.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Right, you know, I mean and is it have you
found Aaron?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's it's it's kind of like for them to get
out of this, they have to escape or does it
come a certain point in time where the people just
say we're done with you and they just throw them
out on the street.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
The most part, people are not getting out and they
are doing their best to contact people on the outside
to help get them out. There were a couple of
isolated times where where big groups have gotten out, and
there have been some one offs, but for the most part,
people aren't really getting out. And then what is happening.
(17:20):
I think it is much, you know, worth looking at
what the aftermath is like for these people that I think,
you know, everybody we think that when your money is stolen,
the worst has happened to you, but we know that
that's not true. There's a psychological aftermath. Absolutely, you think
that the worst has happened and you're done when you
get out and you're released and you go back to Uganda,
(17:42):
but you're not welcomed backed with open arms, like things
aren't easy for you. You still don't have a real job.
You and you are seen differently and you've suffered trauma and.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
You've absolute trauma.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right do you see aaron that you said, like somebody
in Uganda could be sitting in an internet cafe working
making one hundred dollars a month or a day or
whatever it was a month and then somebody comes in
and says, hey, would you like to work and make
a thousand dollars a month? You know, that's that's a
(18:17):
huge increase. But are they targeting the younger generation or
it just doesn't matter. It's whoever's in there or whoever
they can get to do the work.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
You know, I would say for the most part, when
they were actually doing they are actually doing ads that
are all over meta and they'll say something like, I
don't know, twenty, you know, like twenty to thirty five
or something like that. That's the age they're looking at.
But we do know that there are there miners in there,
that there are there are kids under eighteen in there,
(18:52):
there are older people in there, but I think I
think their interest is in.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Twenty twenty to thirty five. Yeah, okay, interesting, and it's interesting.
You said there's ads on Facebook.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Oh Choyce, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
We've talked about it.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I personally finally got back on Facebook and I saw.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
A post that they took down.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Their technology department said it wasn't it violated their community standards.
And I looked at it and it was a post
that I must have shared from Rose about is your
are you locked out of your Facebook account?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, here's some things you can do, and one of
them is go to.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Help and support and put a you know, put a
support claim in and this and that, and so I
appealed it and this morning they came up and said, well,
we put it back up. Our technology department made a mistake,
and but Roses is still not up. I've got to
support ticket in on that one. So to find out
and somebody actually said to me, you know, maybe all
(19:54):
of those fake Facebook accounts that are bots, maybe they
just all started lamming with complaints against you and that's
why they took it down. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
So yeah, and it's just it's terrible.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
It's terrible that like legitimate people that are trying to
prevent scams are being blocked on Facebook, but is allowing
tons and tons of boats, fake ads whatever else.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Yeah, that's well that's crazy.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Have you.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Have you seen that there's like come across anybody from
the United States that has been insign Yeah no, not,
I mean in their you know, kidnapped or.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Have you found any.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Compounds or anything like that in the United States or
they pretty much all predominantly overseas.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
They're all predominantly overseas. But what we are seeing in
the United States that cause me concern is that what
we're dealing with is a pretty extensive money laundering practice
that is international. And so the scammers are going to
find a way to get your money away from you,
and the ideally they want you to move it from
(21:10):
your bank into cryptocurrency and move it into crypto. If
that doesn't work, they will find another way for you
to move your money. And what we're seeing is that
they're even doing cash pickups from people's homes.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
So I agree that where they send the uber ye yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Or but they have they have a pretty sophisticated telegram
group of people that can be relied upon to go
make these these cash pickups. And it's happening all over
the United States. Wow, picking up thousands of dollars from
people in shoe boxes and paper bags from their Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
What about the go ahead?
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah? Sorry.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
A lot of the times, the people that are operating
like their money mules base.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I was just going to bring that up.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Sometimes they don't even know that it's what they do exactly.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
They just know they're paying some month they're picking some money,
they're taking it, you know, and and it's it's like
it's so convoluted, and so I think it's so far
removed from like who the orchestrator is that like a
lot of the times, even even some romans comes victims.
Like I've interviewed people that have told me, you know,
I was like a money in you and I didn't
(22:20):
even know it.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
I was just like I was moving money, and then
when it all.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Came to light, you know, I got in trouble for
like like taking money out of some account or like
sending like money to some you know.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
It's a lot of like like they're literally.
Speaker 6 (22:35):
As commer will sometimes you know, like having a relationship
with somebody, that person trust them, they'll use that person
unwittingly to move some money and that person is implicated
without even knowing.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, last month Brian was filling in for me, and
he had a retired FBI agent on who actually is
on our advisory board, Martin, and they talked about the
money mules, and Martin talked about what they saw in
Phoenix right with people not knowing that they were money mules,
and whether it was actually sending a bunch of cash
(23:11):
in the mail, or it was you know, allowing someone
to put money into your bank account and then you
taking it and transferring it someplace else, which you think
is innocent, right, It's just I'm allowing a friend to
deposit money into my account and I'm going to turn
around and put it into someone else's account.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
I'm doing them a favor.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But it's you can get into serious, serious trouble with that.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
They he taught.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Martin talked about how many people they had to go
and a lot of times it was the older adults
having to go talk to them and explain to them
that it's an illegal it's a money mule, this is why.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And you know you're going to get asked again. You know,
don't do it because if you continue to do it.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You know we could arrest you. And yeah, that's pretty scary.
It's pretty scary. So back to social engineering.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Have you guys seen an article.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And I know I saw it in the last sometime
in the last two to four weeks, but for the
life of me, I could not find it again. And
it was on social engineering, and it was something about
how scammers when they're putting job posts out there they're
actually looking for people that are experienced and that they
(24:35):
might not call it social engineering, but they call it
something else. But they're looking for people that are actually
experienced in that. Have you guys seen anything.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
Nobody wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Maybe maybe.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Maybe human penetration testing.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
I mean, there are people who come up with a
phishing fake fishing emails.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
Organizations do like maybe something like that.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
I mean, but I mean it's it's you know, there
are manuals out there, I think you know, are in
you post that some some parts of that, Like there
are manuals on a dark obb you can purchase and
you can you know, and I'm pretty sure in these
big centers.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
There are coaches that coach you how to do it.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
And yeah, yeah, they're really operating at a level of
fraud as a service. That all of this stuff is available,
there's telegram channels on all of it. You can get
into this industry tomorrow. And it is really it's an
industrialized way of being a thief.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
So it's not it's not the what was that movie
Catch Me if you Can or something like that, like
the way the way scams and frauds started.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
It is really really you know.
Speaker 6 (25:58):
What's really really sad about that, right, Like I love
that story and I read all of the books and
I quoted him in my book, and now I saw
that I had to think I'm taking a.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Bit like beware, And now it's come out that he lies.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Oh really, yeah, because I didn't know that.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
Yeah. So, like there there are.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Accounts that he has invented some of these stories and
things like that. But I make a point, doesn't that
make him even a betters comer? Right now?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
The definition of scammer. He scammed us all into believing
that that happened.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
Absolutely exactly, yes, you b I or something you know,
So like well, right.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I mean because people look, you know, people that want
to know more about the inside of scams and how
they work, they look at him as an authority figure,
right because he did it for so long?
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Wow, So Aaron, what what are the chances that any
of these compounds are going to get shut down? Like, well,
do any of these countries work with the United States
Law enforcement?
Speaker 4 (27:04):
As you said, yeah, the United States Law Enforcement isn't
all that in the game in terms of trying to
shut this down, unfortunately, and that is a piece of
the problem. What I will say is there are countries
who have taken it upon themselves to shut down some
of these, like the Philippines, and the Philippines has rated
(27:25):
I think six or seven by now, which is impressive.
And I was talking to I was recording a podcast
yesterday with Jim Browning, who is a scam baiterer. Yes,
the famous YouTuber. He was the ones who was sending
glitter bombs to for pirates and yeah, and so what
(27:48):
he was saying is that I lost my train of
thought because of Steve and glitter bombs. But oh, what
you were saying is he identified one in Dubai. He
identified a scam facility doing pig butchering in Dubai. When
I was in Dubai, I went and saw it and
definitely that's what it was. And because of his work
(28:10):
and providing information to Dubai authorities, they ultimately within It
took longer than I'd like to say it did, but
it took five or six months, but they did shut
that down, and so they shut down another one and
another one. So the thing is it's doable. What my
fear is having been on the ground in Cambodia and
(28:31):
seen the extent of what is happening on the ground
that that is a wildfire that is now dangerously out
of control. We are not dealing with, you know, five
ten twenty facilities in Cambodia. We're dealing with five ten
twenty on this street in Campbway. It is it's really
a scale that's unimaginable. And really it was unimaginable to
(28:55):
me until I went there and saw it and realized,
oh my god, it's that building and that building and
that building, and then you drive over this and then
there's and it's all under construction, Like this is their industry,
this is where all their money is going, and this
is where all their money is coming in.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It's just always under construction, right yeah, wow, And I
think you.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Know, like one thing that you know has always been
a problem, right, like ever since internet was invented. It's
like the jurisdiction as well, So like how do you
establish who is responsible for prosecution for an investigation? Is
it the country where the victim is from? Is it
the country where the perpetrates is from? And then if
(29:39):
the perpetrator is moving the countries, can you even investigate?
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Like?
Speaker 6 (29:44):
So I think a lot of the time, Like I
think if they were to build something in US, that
would probably be shut down relatively quickly, right, Like it's
it's the fact that they are somewhere else, And so
you have to now like like be a global organization
that is connected to other countries, that has worked all
(30:07):
of the South. And unfortunately fraud is one of those things,
especially like I don't know if you've come across that
area as well, Like I find when it's an organizational fraud,
you know, an organization will deal with it, will prosecute,
you know, via single matter, and even the governments will
look upon like if let's have a big organization that
(30:28):
is well known that it's funding the government, that it's
paying big taxes, like they'll take it most seriously. But
when it's just some like person down the road getting scammed,
it doesn't, you know, like like no one's going to
care about somebody being scammed in a Roman scan.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
So I think, like that's all swept under the rug.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
And then you really need to have a lot of
goodwill by the organizations, by the government, by people in
the government. And I worked a lot with UK organizations
when I was doing my PhD, and there were some
amazingly dedicated people working for the UK bodies trying.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
To fight it.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
But it's difficult because it's like, if it's out of
the jurisdiction, there's nothing they can do, you know, and
they hit the dead ends, and you know, they have
to then communicate with somebody wherever the scam is happening,
wherever they think the scammer is or the organization.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
Even worse, if their.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
Organization is funding corrupt regimes, who's gonna exactly They're not
going to cooperate, right, They're being paid not to cooperate.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, Martina, here is a really interesting point about how
we care about it when big organizations are getting scammed
when and I think that it really is yet another
thing that seems to operate in favor of the scammer.
That when you are picking out individuals one by one
(32:01):
by one by one, you have differentiation different law enforcement
talking to you, you don't understand the gravity and the
massive scale of what's happening until you put them all
in the same bunch, and then you think, oh my god,
we've been overrun. Those country's literally been overrun and has
had a generation's worth of wealth stolen.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, Yes, and you can have victims. You could have
victims from the same group of scammers in all fifty states,
right and then so then you've got the police that
have to talk to the police and all these different
states and yeah, coordinate everything. I mean, is this where
the the FBI might come in and they can kind
(32:44):
of be national or are they still limited to wherever
their office is, their jurisdiction.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Well, we'll see it this way. I think that I
think that every every organization in law enforcement, from state
to local, to federal to international, has got to play
a role in how we're attacking.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
This and that.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Are there are good points and bad points to each
of these, but what's really important is that each of
them has their strength and their own tools. That's how
we develop this truth that state and local the way
I would design this response to this problem is state
and local should be experts at collecting the information. They
should be experts at dealing with victims. They should have
(33:33):
watched a video from doctor Dove and understood who's coming
in and what the problem is. And they should watch
video for me that says, here's the information you need
to get from them, here's the very basics of cryptocurrency,
and they should take that information and they should funnel
it up to the federal government, and the federal government
should be looking at this as a whole.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, as a whole, and it makes sense.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah, it makes sense. It's what local law enforcement should
do is be first line of defense kind understanding, taking
the information and providing information about what these victims can
expect next, because that is something that has been sorely lacking,
is they're not getting assistance on the local and state
(34:17):
level because local and state levels are they lack resources,
training tools, They don't understand this scam. They don't understand
that it is a scam. They are really annoyed that
they're working the desk because they'd much prefer to be
out on patrol that day and so and so you've
got that issue. And then what's happening is they then
report to FBI, and that is a black hole right
(34:40):
now to them. They get no response back. They do
not believe, they have no reason to believe that anybody's
working on their case, and then they start reporting everywhere
piecemeal to find somebody to listen to them.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
You got it, okay?
Speaker 6 (34:54):
I mean even I would say, like you know, when
I was studying this, you know, and I think that
organizations still exists called Action Fraud in the UK. Action
Fraud was founded so that it would be a centralized
place where somebody can report fraud. Having said that, they
have been heavily criticized because the stuff didn't have appropriate training.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
I think they had like a terrible.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
Situation where I think an inside journalist found that they
were mocking the victims.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
But like the biggest problem was that they didn't.
Speaker 6 (35:29):
Have a standardized way of like asking a victim what happened.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
So even the.
Speaker 6 (35:35):
Researcher is like like a researcher when I was studying
my PhD at a conference, a matter researcher who was
diving into the data that Action Fraud had and she
was saying, I can't do any kind of like high
level analysis on it because.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
It's like every call is different.
Speaker 6 (35:51):
They're not asking standardized questions to then figure out like
is there like what you know, what Paul did with
Yoho Boys and a s extortion? You know, like like
you have to invest a lot of time to figure
out like where is this coming from? Because you can't
go after like if it's a lone person just coming somebody.
(36:13):
It's it's not worth your time. But how do you
actually even figure out like the scale of the problem.
It's likely the same criminal where is it? So you
need to have a standardized process for that. So when
the action started, I don't think they had a good
standardized process or the stuff.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
Didn't follow one if it existed.
Speaker 6 (36:34):
So therefore the data becomes just noise, you know, and
you don't know what's true.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I do now, Aaron and Operation Shamrock. You guys have.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
A hotline that people can call in and file their report, right,
you guys have trained.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
We don't have a hotline. What we a We have
a portal where they can report their scam and a
train to get or we'll look at it. We also
have referrals to trust trusted partners like the Identity Theft
respond Center and AARP. Okay, but what doctor Dove is
saying makes so much sense about standardization of all of
(37:17):
this and standard intake. Standardization is so important, especially if
we're trying to find the gaps and the places where
we could make a difference. And if we could learn
how these bad actors are accessing our people, if we
could learn how specifically how this money is being moved
(37:38):
every time and find commonalities and really start to look
at that data in terms of where could we make
a difference. That's the way forward, and perhaps we can
use some of the some of the hiccups of action
fraud as as.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
As learning as learning.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Yeah yeah, I mean I'm talking. I'm talking of that
to go over a decade ago, like you know that.
Speaker 6 (38:03):
We're just starting out, so I'm hoping, you know, even
in my book, like I think I presented a framework
that other researchers have set out, like what is a taxonomy?
What you should be asking? How you should be finding
these things? Because how do you know, how can you
now look at this like large body of data that
(38:23):
you have and figure out, Okay, this is likely the
same type of scamp because the models of RANDI is
the thing, right, Like, let's go after that because of
the you know, like you can't really look at the
data if it's not standardized in some.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
Way, right right?
Speaker 4 (38:40):
You know what it reminds me of. It reminds me
of when we started to really wrap our heads around
how to interview children of sexual assault, and we decided
that there was a standardized way that it should be
done in order to do a forensic interview. And people
were taught that way of questioning children so that it
was leading and it wasn't suggestive and it was that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, you mentioned forensic. I mean that's exactly what it is,
is a forensic questioning, right, which is unbiased, not leading.
You're gathering facts, you're gathering information, but you're also like
a forensic audit or a forensic account would you know
accountant would do?
Speaker 6 (39:27):
But I think you also need to think about it's
not just about not asking the leading question. You you
should be asking a leading question when you're asking somebody
to provide the account.
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Because even just like when.
Speaker 6 (39:38):
You look at the data from BBB, which is available
to anyone, when people, you know, report scams, every person
will describe things totally differently. Some person would say, yeah,
this person called me and you know, I sent you
one hundred and fifty dollars and then I realized this
it's you don't know anything else, right, And another person
will go into a granular detail what has come to
(40:00):
all them?
Speaker 5 (40:00):
Uh, what was the email that's come I emailed them from?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
You know?
Speaker 6 (40:04):
So I think you need to guide people to give
you exact information, right.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Like, okay, like what was the email?
Speaker 6 (40:12):
Maybe it's coming maybe we can track down what you know,
so you need to really know, like and I think
this is where erin where you come in, right like, Okay,
you know, who are the people that are looking at
the chain of events, right like, and who can figure
out that path? And what are the questions we should
be asking along the way? And then you know, what
(40:32):
are some other things? You know, because people are going
to be telling you about the feelings when they're overwhelmed, abright,
not going maybe they're not gonna be like thinking, you
know what's interesting too forensic accountants.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
To truck them right, because they're gonna be in an
emotional state, right exactly exactly.
Speaker 6 (40:49):
So this is why we need standardized forms to actually
collect certain information that will help even just like piece
together some of this you know, you know, like if
you're thinking about you know, like, okay, there's only so
much money the government can invest in tackling fraud.
Speaker 5 (41:07):
Where should we go? How do we find that? Where
should we go?
Speaker 6 (41:10):
If we don't have a good way of segmenting the
data that we have to tell us a story, right.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
And the only way to do that is to have
a process that.
Speaker 6 (41:22):
Isn't just Okay, tell me what's happened, No, to get
the information exactly, to get the right information, to get
the level of granularity right.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
No, that would be great, And Aaron, I want to
talk to you some more about implementing something within ROWS
where the people in Arizona right can call to report
and kind of connect it then with Operation Shamrock, and
that would be a standardized, right question, I just have
(41:55):
to I thought about having the you know, setting up
a twenty four to seven type hot hotline, right, but
it could be somebody calling I think this is a scam?
Speaker 3 (42:05):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (42:06):
But a lot of times you're going to get people
that have already fallen victim that are gonna call right
to report it. But yeah, and it just it never
came to fruition.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
But I want to. I want to. Yeah, I think
some more.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
And I think that our fight against this has to
be in baby steps like that, if we're sitting around
waiting for a national solution to fix this, we're going
to be still sitting here. So what will work in
your jurisdiction and what can you do today to make
it a little safer for people in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Right, yeah, absolutely. I mean if if if nationally they
were doing something about it, we wouldn't be where we're
at right now. Yeah, right, And I see a lot
of bills come through, but it seems to always be
highly focused on after it happens, and it's like, we
don't need any more victims. Let's get the education out
(42:59):
there trying them to stop, you know, to recognize it
and not become a victim.
Speaker 6 (43:07):
But all the punishing, I think, you know, it sends
the wrong message when you don't investigate and you don't
and I know for really complicated, it's complicated. I have
sympathy for law enforcement with fraud, with with you know,
cross border complexities, but I think, you know, we need
to try and make it slightly unsafer. What's commerce because
(43:31):
right now it's like, I mean, I don't know. I
think it's there's more risk of you being like in
jail for shoplifting diapers.
Speaker 5 (43:41):
Right then you.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Are one, I mean right, because when we do see that,
people get arrested and getting prosecuted, I mean they might
get eight to ten years and they're out in two
to five on good behavior and It's like they just
stolehundreds of millions of dollars and put people out on
(44:03):
the street and this is all they're getting.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
And then there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Of people that are like, why should I even report nothing?
Nobody ever gets punished for it.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
They feel like it's a wait of time.
Speaker 6 (44:17):
Yeah, and glamorizing, glamorizing process really upsets me, Like what
was happening with Anna Delvi and Netflix shows and Netflix
series and blaming victims for like accepting our gifts, and
you know, like I think that like that we need
to do better at it's it's.
Speaker 5 (44:39):
You know, would you glamorize the pedophile?
Speaker 6 (44:42):
No, no, right, just because they dressed really nicely and
they're smart you know, like I think we need to
do better there.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Oh yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
And I mean just you know, I see people on
Facebook and the next door apps and stuff like that,
and when someone is being vulnerable and talking about their
experience because they want other people to know what the
scam was that they just fell victim to, so hopefully
other people won't fall You're going to get these people
that respond and go, well.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Just don't be so gullible. It's like, excuse me.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yeah, there really is an acceptable level of shame that
that is allowed in this place, and we wouldn't. We
wouldn't laud on any other.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
No, would we do that for a domestic violence victim? Yeah, no, Yeah,
we wouldn't.
Speaker 5 (45:34):
I think.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
But again it goes.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Back to I think everybody thinks that if you fall
I shouldn't say everybody thinks, but a lot of people
still think if you fall victim to a scam, it's
because you were stupid, you made a state.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
And it's like.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Scams have nothing to do with intelligence at all. I mean,
some of the smartest people have given away millions of dollars.
Speaker 6 (45:58):
Yeah, it's you know, like I like to think of
it this way, right, Like there are certain certain crimes
we always try to shift the blame to the victim,
and I think domestic violence was one of those until
we learn better. Sexual assaults are another one. And you know,
like it comes down to you. And you know, I've
(46:19):
heard that with like proad victims too, when you interview them.
Speaker 5 (46:22):
First thing they say, I thought it would never happen
to me. I'm intelligent, like.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I made assumed that I felt for them.
Speaker 5 (46:28):
Yeah, like, what how did this happen?
Speaker 6 (46:30):
To me.
Speaker 5 (46:30):
But the thing is, you know, like in psychology, there's
something called the just world bias, and you know, it's.
Speaker 6 (46:37):
A belief that there is justice in the world and
that like bad things don't happen to good people.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
That's karma. You hear people talking about karma.
Speaker 6 (46:46):
Karma, so if something happened to you, it must be
some kind of a you know, like effect of something you.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Did karma or something you did.
Speaker 5 (46:55):
Right, well, it's not even.
Speaker 6 (46:57):
The karma, but it's it's almost kind of like that
of control that we have, right, we think that we
can control our events. Like you hear that a lot
with like some assaults where victim freezes, right, like like
you know, fight flights like or freeze is also a
response that you just go into and you can't control.
(47:20):
But like a lot of the times we blame like
great victims for freezing instead of fighting and they didn't
get injured as injured as if they were fighting, and
they get beaten and then therefore like the credible because
they have these physical injuries. But a lot of like
these things happen because we as people have to feel
(47:40):
like we can control things that we really can't control, right,
Like you know, you can go down the street and
somebody can attack you for zero reason on that day,
like you've done nothing. You couldn't prevent it, but we
like them, you couldn't control it, but you like the
other person exactly. You can't control environment, You can't control
all a lot of things, but I think we like to.
(48:02):
There's that illusion of control, which is a cognitive bias,
and another one is believe in just.
Speaker 5 (48:07):
World, and they go hand in hand.
Speaker 6 (48:09):
Where like, and I found this sympirically as well, people
who actually exhibit the belief that scum victims aregaillable and
it would never happen to them actually more vulnerable to
fall in from email.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
I prove that because they're letting their guard down.
Speaker 5 (48:24):
Yes, exactly, but it's that belief.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
And I think it's because, you know, for us to
have a normal, happy disposition and positive alcohoc on.
Speaker 5 (48:34):
Life, we need to feel like we're in control.
Speaker 6 (48:36):
And I think a lot of it it comes down
to that that people don't but again they do it
subconsciously because they don't know better.
Speaker 5 (48:45):
Right like they truly believe they wouldn't.
Speaker 6 (48:48):
You know, I've never been in a situation where I
had to defend myself against an assault. I don't know
how I would react. I like to think I'd be
fighting and I'll be right.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
But you don't know, right Freeze, you don't know exactly,
you don't know. Yeah, so all right, well we have
like one or two minutes left.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
So in closing, what are some of the things that
people can do to help recognize a pig butchering scam?
Speaker 4 (49:18):
I think that people need to be hyper aware right
now of any electronic communication that they did not initiate.
And unfortunately that's where we live right now. That anything
that comes into your email, your text that you do
not recognize immediately, you need to check independently. And so
(49:39):
that comes down to something from your bank, something from Netflix,
or just someone who appearing to want to be your friend.
And particularly when we put ourselves in places where we're
kind of looking for friends, like on a dating app
or on a Instagram, we need to be cautious of
people that seem interested in being our friends. And we
(50:00):
really need to be good evaluators just from the outset
that people there are scammers among us.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, anything the ad Martina.
Speaker 6 (50:14):
Yeah, I would say, like I've actually even heard of
stories where victims didn't, you know, weren't approached by a
camera on the dating side.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
They approach this camera on the dating side.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
So just being.
Speaker 6 (50:25):
Really wary of like even profiles that seem really like
they resonate with you, because I'm pretty sure scammer's open profiles.
They'll study who is on the website and they tailor
make these things to be attractive. And another thing I
would say, like when you get the text I get
these text all the time that seem like prog numbers.
(50:46):
That's how big butchering starts. You didn't initiate it, but
you may think, well, it's just the wrong number.
Speaker 5 (50:53):
Let me respond.
Speaker 6 (50:54):
As soon as you respond, they'll get you in a
conversation and then it's going to be difficult to stop responding.
Really like, it's sad that we have to say these
people don't even be polite.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
But exactly, I used to be polite and respond and
say sorry, you have the wrong number. Now it's just
like delete, delete, delete, delete.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
I don't care about the party. I don't care about
you know, the delete.
Speaker 5 (51:17):
So maybe it was the legitimate party, though.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
Joyce might have been a really fun party. Who knows,
I could have right.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Oh well, anyways, thank you guys so much for joining
me today.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
This was awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
People got a lot of information and Aaron I'll reach
out set up a time to talk more about that.
But thank you guys again, thank you. All right, all
right to end it here, lots of information for everybody
about pig butchering. Thank you so much to Aaron West
(51:57):
and doctor Martina Dove for giving us a deep dive
into this. And as Aaron mentioned, be so very careful
with any communication that you get that you did not initiate.
And as doctor Martina Dove said, you know, you've got
to be wary of those text messages that you get
that say.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Seems to be a wrong number.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
We always want to be polite and respond, but this
is exactly how the pig butchering scammers start these conversations.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
So use that delete button.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
You don't have to be polite and respond, just use
the delete button. Don't forget to go to our website,
Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find the social media links on
the homepage scroll to the bottom, sign up for the newsletters,
and you can find all of the episodes on our
YouTube channel and our let's talk about scams dot com
website and until next week.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Thank you all.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Well, that's all the knowledge for this episode. June in
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on kfour HG
Radio at KFOURHD as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge,
so you have the power to make scam protection your
healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach out
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,
professional service, or any advice. You should seek the services
(00:23):
of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational
purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional
legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted
sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the
(00:45):
elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to
a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen
show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their
loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific time on
K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose, and
(01:06):
her guests. We'll provide valuable insights and practical tips on
how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And now
here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, welcome back, everybody. I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose
Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly. You can find more
information on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org. The homepage
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(01:41):
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Talk about Scams dot com website, and scroll down to
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Today we are going to do a d dive into
pig butchering scams, and we have two guests. Aaron West
(02:07):
was on a few weeks ago. She's the founder of
Operation Shamrock, a global nonprofit uniting law enforcement, industry and
everyday citizens to disrupt the world's fastest growing form of
trans national organized crime, the pig butchering scams. And we
also have doctor Martina dove Back. She is the expert
(02:28):
in the psychology behind the scams with her book The
Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques, which there'll.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Be an update.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
A new volume coming out I believe in October. But
let's welcome Aaron and Martina.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Hi, guys. Once we can't forget about Steve and Steve.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Steve's here as always, as always, Steve nice So pig
butchering scams.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Aaron, you and I talked about this last month. I
don't know that we went into a whole lot of detail.
But let's the first thing I think let's talk about.
I think you mentioned before that these kind of started
in Asia.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Yeah, this is.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, it came from Southeast Asian criminals. It is a
long con. It's a romance slash investment scheme. And we've
seen plenty of romance schemes in the past. We've seen
investment schemes in the past, but this really smacked us
in the face with it's the objective, the mission is
(03:36):
to take every penny that you have, and that's why
it's so particularly dangerous.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So are a lot of the now.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I watched the movie The Beekeeper when it first came out,
and so I saw the big for a call center
right that they operated out of in this office building.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
What is it like, is.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Are they operating all of these types of call centers
out of Southeast Asia or are they in other areas
as well?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Yeah, this really started in Southeast Asia in twenty twenty,
twenty twenty one, and they are They're like call centers only.
The issue here is that the people working the scams
are for the most part human trafficked victims who didn't
realize that that's what they were coming in to do.
(04:26):
And so the scam centers look a lot like a prison.
There are big walls around the outside, there are men's
with AK forty sevens and they are sleeping six to
a room and forced to do this scamming sixteen hours
a day.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Wow, So is it you said that they didn't know
what they were signing up for? Is it more like
they thought they were applying for a job, like a
legitimate job, and then they go and in essence get kidnapped.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
That's exactly right. They some of the victims I've talked
to are you Gondon? And they say I was working
in an internet cafe making one hundred dollars a month
and a fellow you Gonden, came in and said would
you like to make a thousand dollars a month? And
he thought, I'm twenty three years old. Yeah, I would
(05:15):
like to make one thousand dollars a month, and went
through a series of interviews, did a typing test, had
every reason to believe that he was getting an official
job in Bangkok, Thailand. He flew there and when he arrived,
they took his passport, they took his cell phone, and
they essentially kidnapped him and drove him for hours on
(05:36):
end into another country. They drove him to me and
mar and brought him behind the walls of a fortress
and forced him to do his scamming.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
And what about the governments in these countries?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Do they not know this is happening?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Or do they just have so much other crime they're
trying to deal with that this isn't top on their list,
or maybe they just don't care.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Yeah, what we're seeing is that they, the organized criminals
running this, have deliberately chosen locations that are going to
be friendly to them. And by that, I mean that
they are amenable to taking bribes to allow this to
continue to happen in their jurisdiction. And that's what we
see happening, and that's what's happened in Cambodia, where we
essentially they are running a scam economy. That's what they do.
(06:27):
In Cambodia makescept sixty percent of their GDP, and in
other hot spots like me and mar those are you know,
they're in a civil war there, and so they are
different areas controlled by armed militias. And with the right
amount of payment to an armed militia, you pretty much
run any enterprise you'd like to run.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, money talks, right, Yeah, yeah, wow, that's just crazy. Actually,
last week on the I did the show on social engineering, Martina,
do you see in these pig butchering scams a lot
of social engineering?
Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (07:09):
I would say, you know, first, like I just need
to comment on the fact that, you know, when you
think about it, right, like the targeting people that are
desperate for a better job, like the targeting you know,
these these human trafficking victims are victims of a fraud,
you know themselves.
Speaker 5 (07:28):
It's just like really horrible.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
But yeah, I would say the big butchering scams are
the most sophisticated that I've ever seen. They a lot
of the times, even when it's just you know, investment,
So like let's say your friends that are just talking
about investment, the way the executed is incredibly sophisticated.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
And it wouldn't surprise.
Speaker 6 (07:54):
Me that there is a psychologist or some kind of
a person that understands alogy and how people can be manipulated,
you know, just in a you know, even if you
take away what they're telling you, even if you take
away the lies, and I know I've spoken to Erin
about that. You know, don't even focus on like what
(08:14):
lies you're being told. It's not even about lies. It's
how they manipulate you by hooking you on through these
friendly conversations that become part of your life. You trust
the person who's you know, kind of conversing with you
over a period of months, and then how they subliminally
inject you to think about this, you know, kind of
(08:38):
trades and think about investments before the eventual kind of
like requests for money and the requests kind of like
the big push that we're all warning people about, right
Like when we issue these warnings, we say to people,
if somebody's pressuring you to do this, they don't pressure
the subliminary influence. And then at the end and when
(09:00):
they start pressuring you, you're so far down the line
and so invested and so confused and so manipulated that
you're just not able to see the manipulation for what
it is because it's been happening in tiny increments.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Kind of like kind of like the grooming with the
romance scam. Yes, right, yes, which is I actually talked
to a lady who her close friend has been talking
to this gentleman for six years, and she's been trying
(09:39):
to explain to her that, you know, it's a scam.
She sent some money, but she's been like planning the
wedding and all of that stuff, and it's just I
you know, I just told her, I said, you know,
it's it's tough to hear, but the longer they're in it,
the harder it is to break that spell that the
scammer has over him, because it it's a brainwashing, right.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
It's total brainwashing.
Speaker 6 (10:03):
And you know, one quote came to mind as you
were saying this. I was interviewing a victim and you know,
of a romance fraud.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
And she said, to me, he didn't ask me for anything.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
I wanted to give it to him, and like and
that that tells you everything, Like it's not you know,
we warn victims a lot about pay attention to this.
Don't send money to people who ask for money. They
don't ask for money. You just want to give it
to them because they've groomed you to the point where
you think this is your od one, right, and this
(10:35):
is somebody you trust.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Again, how they're evolving, right, realizing that people are finding
out you know, okay, well this is exactly the playbook
of what I was told, what happened, and so they're
changing things up. Yes, but that's even more dangerous, right,
those little subliminal things.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
It's very it's so dangerous. I think it's all so
like the fact that it's subliminal. You're not conscious of it,
so you can't protect yourself from it. And I think
a lot of the times I see very simplistic advice
which says, don't panic, take your time.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
It's great advice. It's great advice. I give it too.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
But you know you don't you're not panicking. You're not
conscious that you're panicking. You just know something's unsettling you
and you're acting on it. And and even just like
you know, sometimes like I think I've dived into this
with with victims as well, you know, like sometimes I
will ask really deep questions on like how this camera
(11:38):
did and what the camera did and one of the
things that comes out at some point just before they
want you to do something, suddenly there'll be.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
A period of hours where they're unreachable and.
Speaker 6 (11:50):
That'll raise your anxiety, you know, and so like even
if it's just like it's like, hey, I was at
the lunch with a colleague and I lost some time,
but it's just like that, you know, will build up
the anxiety and then you'll want to prevent another bouts
of the anxiety exactly. Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
So you're you're right.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
I'm sure they have psychologists that are training the people.
You know, it's interesting from that victim side of it.
But then the other victim side of it, Aaron, you
were talking about were the people that are kidnapped and
trafficked and that's all out of fear based you know,
because I'm sure do they do they like have quotas
(12:34):
that they're supposed to make every day And is it
so many phone calls there's so much money or.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
They definitely have quotas And I think it's I love
that doctor dev is on this call today too, because
I think that the nuance that people are missing in
this is that people aren't stupid. People aren't there. They
are they have been lured in a very calculated way
down a path that's already been selected by the scammer.
(13:04):
And the more we can get people to appreciate that,
the kinder they'll be to victims. On the other side,
the human trafficking side, I often talk about the idea
that you're trying to make people do something that they
would not ever want to do. Nobody wants to falsely
make someone fall in love with you and then steal
(13:26):
from them. So to get regular, normal, kind human beings
to do that, you need to either offer them a
lot of treats or you need to make their lives
really miserable. And they do both of them. And the
violence that happens inside these scam facilities is horrendous and
(13:46):
the the I was recently I just read some reviews
of my speaking recently and someone said, oh, you should
you should put a warning on if you're going to
say what happens inside those facilities. So I won't tell you,
but the fact that they're violent to those who don't
do the work. Conversely, uh, they they offer really debaucherous
(14:12):
levels of incentive to do the work. They give them prostitutes,
they give them alcohol, they give them evenings in a
in a karaoke bar, and and so the entire, the
entire environment that they're in is so distasteful that either
(14:35):
we're offering women and wine or we're going to beat
you up for not doing your right right now.
Speaker 6 (14:41):
And so I offer, yeah, like, I just want to
offer a quick perspective here, because this is the first
time I'm hearing that that's the form of grooming. You're
desensitizing a person, you know, to be able to accept.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
The new normal.
Speaker 6 (14:57):
Right, the new normal is that you are person who
is immoral, So therefore why should you care about being
a calmer?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Yeah, that's it is. It's really sad.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And you know when when you look at it, and
if you try to put yourself in the in the
the victim, the human trafficked victims shoes, right, It's like,
if you're given a choice, I'm going to get to
go to a karaoke bar and drink, or I'm going
to be given alcohol or this, or I'm going to
(15:29):
get beat up or something more violent.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
They're going to go for this right, you.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Know, And and so that's a that's a huge incentive
do Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
It's so basic. It's the it's the treats versus versus
it's good versus bad. Like you're, yeah, you're gonna make
that decision, and they know that and they play on it.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Right.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
Yeah, Wow, that's it's very bad. Like I didn't know that.
It's it's really interesting as well. Like I think if
you are forcing somebody to do something they don't want
to do over a long period of time, you are
like probably you know, like you don't want to have
them rebel because obviously probably there's more of these people
(16:17):
that are being held against the will than there is
people and you could potentially cause a riot, right, So,
like I think, how do you now get them.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
To accept the new normal? Right? Like that?
Speaker 6 (16:29):
That's so like I'm pretty sure there's like psychological.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Ways of how they groom.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
The people that have to do this work and what
psychological damage that leaves once they escape as well.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Right, you know, I mean and is it have you
found Aaron?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's it's it's kind of like for them to get
out of this, they have to escape or does it
come a certain point in time where the people just
say we're done with you and they just throw them
out on the street.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
The most part, people are not getting out and they
are doing their best to contact people on the outside
to help get them out. There were a couple of
isolated times where where big groups have gotten out, and
there have been some one offs, but for the most part,
people aren't really getting out. And then what is happening.
(17:20):
I think it is much, you know, worth looking at
what the aftermath is like for these people that I think,
you know, everybody we think that when your money is stolen,
the worst has happened to you, but we know that
that's not true. There's a psychological aftermath. Absolutely, you think
that the worst has happened and you're done when you
get out and you're released and you go back to Uganda,
(17:42):
but you're not welcomed backed with open arms, like things
aren't easy for you. You still don't have a real job.
You and you are seen differently and you've suffered trauma and.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
You've absolute trauma.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right do you see aaron that you said, like somebody
in Uganda could be sitting in an internet cafe working
making one hundred dollars a month or a day or
whatever it was a month and then somebody comes in
and says, hey, would you like to work and make
a thousand dollars a month? You know, that's that's a
(18:17):
huge increase. But are they targeting the younger generation or
it just doesn't matter. It's whoever's in there or whoever
they can get to do the work.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
You know, I would say for the most part, when
they were actually doing they are actually doing ads that
are all over meta and they'll say something like, I
don't know, twenty, you know, like twenty to thirty five
or something like that. That's the age they're looking at.
But we do know that there are there miners in there,
that there are there are kids under eighteen in there,
(18:52):
there are older people in there, but I think I
think their interest is in.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Twenty twenty to thirty five. Yeah, okay, interesting, and it's interesting.
You said there's ads on Facebook.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
Oh Choyce, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
We've talked about it.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I personally finally got back on Facebook and I saw.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
A post that they took down.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Their technology department said it wasn't it violated their community standards.
And I looked at it and it was a post
that I must have shared from Rose about is your
are you locked out of your Facebook account?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Well, here's some things you can do, and one of
them is go to.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Help and support and put a you know, put a
support claim in and this and that, and so I
appealed it and this morning they came up and said, well,
we put it back up. Our technology department made a mistake,
and but Roses is still not up. I've got to
support ticket in on that one. So to find out
and somebody actually said to me, you know, maybe all
(19:54):
of those fake Facebook accounts that are bots, maybe they
just all started lamming with complaints against you and that's
why they took it down. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
So yeah, and it's just it's terrible.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
It's terrible that like legitimate people that are trying to
prevent scams are being blocked on Facebook, but is allowing
tons and tons of boats, fake ads whatever else.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Yeah, that's well that's crazy.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Have you.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Have you seen that there's like come across anybody from
the United States that has been insign Yeah no, not,
I mean in their you know, kidnapped or.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Have you found any.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Compounds or anything like that in the United States or
they pretty much all predominantly overseas.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
They're all predominantly overseas. But what we are seeing in
the United States that cause me concern is that what
we're dealing with is a pretty extensive money laundering practice
that is international. And so the scammers are going to
find a way to get your money away from you,
and the ideally they want you to move it from
(21:10):
your bank into cryptocurrency and move it into crypto. If
that doesn't work, they will find another way for you
to move your money. And what we're seeing is that
they're even doing cash pickups from people's homes.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
So I agree that where they send the uber ye yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Or but they have they have a pretty sophisticated telegram
group of people that can be relied upon to go
make these these cash pickups. And it's happening all over
the United States. Wow, picking up thousands of dollars from
people in shoe boxes and paper bags from their Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
What about the go ahead?
Speaker 5 (21:47):
Yeah? Sorry.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
A lot of the times, the people that are operating
like their money mules base.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
I was just going to bring that up.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Sometimes they don't even know that it's what they do exactly.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
They just know they're paying some month they're picking some money,
they're taking it, you know, and and it's it's like
it's so convoluted, and so I think it's so far
removed from like who the orchestrator is that like a
lot of the times, even even some romans comes victims.
Like I've interviewed people that have told me, you know,
I was like a money in you and I didn't
(22:20):
even know it.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
I was just like I was moving money, and then
when it all.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Came to light, you know, I got in trouble for
like like taking money out of some account or like
sending like money to some you know.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
It's a lot of like like they're literally.
Speaker 6 (22:35):
As commer will sometimes you know, like having a relationship
with somebody, that person trust them, they'll use that person
unwittingly to move some money and that person is implicated
without even knowing.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, last month Brian was filling in for me, and
he had a retired FBI agent on who actually is
on our advisory board, Martin, and they talked about the
money mules, and Martin talked about what they saw in
Phoenix right with people not knowing that they were money mules,
and whether it was actually sending a bunch of cash
(23:11):
in the mail, or it was you know, allowing someone
to put money into your bank account and then you
taking it and transferring it someplace else, which you think
is innocent, right, It's just I'm allowing a friend to
deposit money into my account and I'm going to turn
around and put it into someone else's account.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
I'm doing them a favor.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But it's you can get into serious, serious trouble with that.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
They he taught.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Martin talked about how many people they had to go
and a lot of times it was the older adults
having to go talk to them and explain to them
that it's an illegal it's a money mule, this is why.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
And you know you're going to get asked again. You know,
don't do it because if you continue to do it.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You know we could arrest you. And yeah, that's pretty scary.
It's pretty scary. So back to social engineering.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Have you guys seen an article.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And I know I saw it in the last sometime
in the last two to four weeks, but for the
life of me, I could not find it again. And
it was on social engineering, and it was something about
how scammers when they're putting job posts out there they're
actually looking for people that are experienced and that they
(24:35):
might not call it social engineering, but they call it
something else. But they're looking for people that are actually
experienced in that. Have you guys seen anything.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
Nobody wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Maybe maybe.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Maybe human penetration testing.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
I mean, there are people who come up with a
phishing fake fishing emails.
Speaker 5 (25:00):
Organizations do like maybe something like that.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
I mean, but I mean it's it's you know, there
are manuals out there, I think you know, are in
you post that some some parts of that, Like there
are manuals on a dark obb you can purchase and
you can you know, and I'm pretty sure in these
big centers.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
There are coaches that coach you how to do it.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
And yeah, yeah, they're really operating at a level of
fraud as a service. That all of this stuff is available,
there's telegram channels on all of it. You can get
into this industry tomorrow. And it is really it's an
industrialized way of being a thief.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
So it's not it's not the what was that movie
Catch Me if you Can or something like that, like
the way the way scams and frauds started.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
It is really really you know.
Speaker 6 (25:58):
What's really really sad about that, right, Like I love
that story and I read all of the books and
I quoted him in my book, and now I saw
that I had to think I'm taking a.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Bit like beware, And now it's come out that he lies.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Oh really, yeah, because I didn't know that.
Speaker 5 (26:17):
Yeah. So, like there there are.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
Accounts that he has invented some of these stories and
things like that. But I make a point, doesn't that
make him even a betters comer? Right now?
Speaker 4 (26:28):
The definition of scammer. He scammed us all into believing
that that happened.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
Absolutely exactly, yes, you b I or something you know,
So like well, right.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I mean because people look, you know, people that want
to know more about the inside of scams and how
they work, they look at him as an authority figure,
right because he did it for so long?
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Wow, So Aaron, what what are the chances that any
of these compounds are going to get shut down? Like, well,
do any of these countries work with the United States
Law enforcement?
Speaker 4 (27:04):
As you said, yeah, the United States Law Enforcement isn't
all that in the game in terms of trying to
shut this down, unfortunately, and that is a piece of
the problem. What I will say is there are countries
who have taken it upon themselves to shut down some
of these, like the Philippines, and the Philippines has rated
(27:25):
I think six or seven by now, which is impressive.
And I was talking to I was recording a podcast
yesterday with Jim Browning, who is a scam baiterer. Yes,
the famous YouTuber. He was the ones who was sending
glitter bombs to for pirates and yeah, and so what
(27:48):
he was saying is that I lost my train of
thought because of Steve and glitter bombs. But oh, what
you were saying is he identified one in Dubai. He
identified a scam facility doing pig butchering in Dubai. When
I was in Dubai, I went and saw it and
definitely that's what it was. And because of his work
(28:10):
and providing information to Dubai authorities, they ultimately within It
took longer than I'd like to say it did, but
it took five or six months, but they did shut
that down, and so they shut down another one and
another one. So the thing is it's doable. What my
fear is having been on the ground in Cambodia and
(28:31):
seen the extent of what is happening on the ground
that that is a wildfire that is now dangerously out
of control. We are not dealing with, you know, five
ten twenty facilities in Cambodia. We're dealing with five ten
twenty on this street in Campbway. It is it's really
a scale that's unimaginable. And really it was unimaginable to
(28:55):
me until I went there and saw it and realized,
oh my god, it's that building and that building and
that building, and then you drive over this and then
there's and it's all under construction, Like this is their industry,
this is where all their money is going, and this
is where all their money is coming in.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It's just always under construction, right yeah, wow, And I
think you.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Know, like one thing that you know has always been
a problem, right, like ever since internet was invented. It's
like the jurisdiction as well, So like how do you
establish who is responsible for prosecution for an investigation? Is
it the country where the victim is from? Is it
the country where the perpetrates is from? And then if
(29:39):
the perpetrator is moving the countries, can you even investigate?
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Like?
Speaker 6 (29:44):
So I think a lot of the time, Like I
think if they were to build something in US, that
would probably be shut down relatively quickly, right, Like it's
it's the fact that they are somewhere else, And so
you have to now like like be a global organization
that is connected to other countries, that has worked all
(30:07):
of the South. And unfortunately fraud is one of those things,
especially like I don't know if you've come across that
area as well, Like I find when it's an organizational fraud,
you know, an organization will deal with it, will prosecute,
you know, via single matter, and even the governments will
look upon like if let's have a big organization that
(30:28):
is well known that it's funding the government, that it's
paying big taxes, like they'll take it most seriously. But
when it's just some like person down the road getting scammed,
it doesn't, you know, like like no one's going to
care about somebody being scammed in a Roman scan.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
So I think, like that's all swept under the rug.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
And then you really need to have a lot of
goodwill by the organizations, by the government, by people in
the government. And I worked a lot with UK organizations
when I was doing my PhD, and there were some
amazingly dedicated people working for the UK bodies trying.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
To fight it.
Speaker 6 (31:08):
But it's difficult because it's like, if it's out of
the jurisdiction, there's nothing they can do, you know, and
they hit the dead ends, and you know, they have
to then communicate with somebody wherever the scam is happening,
wherever they think the scammer is or the organization.
Speaker 5 (31:25):
Even worse, if their.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
Organization is funding corrupt regimes, who's gonna exactly They're not
going to cooperate, right, They're being paid not to cooperate.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, Martina, here is a really interesting point about how
we care about it when big organizations are getting scammed
when and I think that it really is yet another
thing that seems to operate in favor of the scammer.
That when you are picking out individuals one by one
(32:01):
by one by one, you have differentiation different law enforcement
talking to you, you don't understand the gravity and the
massive scale of what's happening until you put them all
in the same bunch, and then you think, oh my god,
we've been overrun. Those country's literally been overrun and has
had a generation's worth of wealth stolen.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, Yes, and you can have victims. You could have
victims from the same group of scammers in all fifty states,
right and then so then you've got the police that
have to talk to the police and all these different
states and yeah, coordinate everything. I mean, is this where
the the FBI might come in and they can kind
(32:44):
of be national or are they still limited to wherever
their office is, their jurisdiction.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Well, we'll see it this way. I think that I
think that every every organization in law enforcement, from state
to local, to federal to international, has got to play
a role in how we're attacking.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
This and that.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Are there are good points and bad points to each
of these, but what's really important is that each of
them has their strength and their own tools. That's how
we develop this truth that state and local the way
I would design this response to this problem is state
and local should be experts at collecting the information. They
should be experts at dealing with victims. They should have
(33:33):
watched a video from doctor Dove and understood who's coming
in and what the problem is. And they should watch
video for me that says, here's the information you need
to get from them, here's the very basics of cryptocurrency,
and they should take that information and they should funnel
it up to the federal government, and the federal government
should be looking at this as a whole.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, as a whole, and it makes sense.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Yeah, it makes sense. It's what local law enforcement should
do is be first line of defense kind understanding, taking
the information and providing information about what these victims can
expect next, because that is something that has been sorely lacking,
is they're not getting assistance on the local and state
(34:17):
level because local and state levels are they lack resources,
training tools, They don't understand this scam. They don't understand
that it is a scam. They are really annoyed that
they're working the desk because they'd much prefer to be
out on patrol that day and so and so you've
got that issue. And then what's happening is they then
report to FBI, and that is a black hole right
(34:40):
now to them. They get no response back. They do
not believe, they have no reason to believe that anybody's
working on their case, and then they start reporting everywhere
piecemeal to find somebody to listen to them.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
You got it, okay?
Speaker 6 (34:54):
I mean even I would say, like you know, when
I was studying this, you know, and I think that
organizations still exists called Action Fraud in the UK. Action
Fraud was founded so that it would be a centralized
place where somebody can report fraud. Having said that, they
have been heavily criticized because the stuff didn't have appropriate training.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
I think they had like a terrible.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
Situation where I think an inside journalist found that they
were mocking the victims.
Speaker 5 (35:27):
But like the biggest problem was that they didn't.
Speaker 6 (35:29):
Have a standardized way of like asking a victim what happened.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
So even the.
Speaker 6 (35:35):
Researcher is like like a researcher when I was studying
my PhD at a conference, a matter researcher who was
diving into the data that Action Fraud had and she
was saying, I can't do any kind of like high
level analysis on it because.
Speaker 5 (35:48):
It's like every call is different.
Speaker 6 (35:51):
They're not asking standardized questions to then figure out like
is there like what you know, what Paul did with
Yoho Boys and a s extortion? You know, like like
you have to invest a lot of time to figure
out like where is this coming from? Because you can't
go after like if it's a lone person just coming somebody.
(36:13):
It's it's not worth your time. But how do you
actually even figure out like the scale of the problem.
It's likely the same criminal where is it? So you
need to have a standardized process for that. So when
the action started, I don't think they had a good
standardized process or the stuff.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
Didn't follow one if it existed.
Speaker 6 (36:34):
So therefore the data becomes just noise, you know, and
you don't know what's true.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I do now, Aaron and Operation Shamrock. You guys have.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
A hotline that people can call in and file their report, right,
you guys have trained.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
We don't have a hotline. What we a We have
a portal where they can report their scam and a
train to get or we'll look at it. We also
have referrals to trust trusted partners like the Identity Theft
respond Center and AARP. Okay, but what doctor Dove is
saying makes so much sense about standardization of all of
(37:17):
this and standard intake. Standardization is so important, especially if
we're trying to find the gaps and the places where
we could make a difference. And if we could learn
how these bad actors are accessing our people, if we
could learn how specifically how this money is being moved
(37:38):
every time and find commonalities and really start to look
at that data in terms of where could we make
a difference. That's the way forward, and perhaps we can
use some of the some of the hiccups of action
fraud as as.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
As learning as learning.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Yeah yeah, I mean I'm talking. I'm talking of that
to go over a decade ago, like you know that.
Speaker 6 (38:03):
We're just starting out, so I'm hoping, you know, even
in my book, like I think I presented a framework
that other researchers have set out, like what is a taxonomy?
What you should be asking? How you should be finding
these things? Because how do you know, how can you
now look at this like large body of data that
(38:23):
you have and figure out, Okay, this is likely the
same type of scamp because the models of RANDI is
the thing, right, Like, let's go after that because of
the you know, like you can't really look at the
data if it's not standardized in some.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
Way, right right?
Speaker 4 (38:40):
You know what it reminds me of. It reminds me
of when we started to really wrap our heads around
how to interview children of sexual assault, and we decided
that there was a standardized way that it should be
done in order to do a forensic interview. And people
were taught that way of questioning children so that it
was leading and it wasn't suggestive and it was that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, you mentioned forensic. I mean that's exactly what it is,
is a forensic questioning, right, which is unbiased, not leading.
You're gathering facts, you're gathering information, but you're also like
a forensic audit or a forensic account would you know
accountant would do?
Speaker 6 (39:27):
But I think you also need to think about it's
not just about not asking the leading question. You you
should be asking a leading question when you're asking somebody
to provide the account.
Speaker 5 (39:36):
Because even just like when.
Speaker 6 (39:38):
You look at the data from BBB, which is available
to anyone, when people, you know, report scams, every person
will describe things totally differently. Some person would say, yeah,
this person called me and you know, I sent you
one hundred and fifty dollars and then I realized this
it's you don't know anything else, right, And another person
will go into a granular detail what has come to
(40:00):
all them?
Speaker 5 (40:00):
Uh, what was the email that's come I emailed them from?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
You know?
Speaker 6 (40:04):
So I think you need to guide people to give
you exact information, right.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
Like, okay, like what was the email?
Speaker 6 (40:12):
Maybe it's coming maybe we can track down what you know,
so you need to really know, like and I think
this is where erin where you come in, right like, Okay,
you know, who are the people that are looking at
the chain of events, right like, and who can figure
out that path? And what are the questions we should
be asking along the way? And then you know, what
(40:32):
are some other things? You know, because people are going
to be telling you about the feelings when they're overwhelmed, abright,
not going maybe they're not gonna be like thinking, you
know what's interesting too forensic accountants.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
To truck them right, because they're gonna be in an
emotional state, right exactly exactly.
Speaker 6 (40:49):
So this is why we need standardized forms to actually
collect certain information that will help even just like piece
together some of this you know, you know, like if
you're thinking about you know, like, okay, there's only so
much money the government can invest in tackling fraud.
Speaker 5 (41:07):
Where should we go? How do we find that? Where
should we go?
Speaker 6 (41:10):
If we don't have a good way of segmenting the
data that we have to tell us a story, right.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
And the only way to do that is to have
a process that.
Speaker 6 (41:22):
Isn't just Okay, tell me what's happened, No, to get
the information exactly, to get the right information, to get
the level of granularity right.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
No, that would be great, And Aaron, I want to
talk to you some more about implementing something within ROWS
where the people in Arizona right can call to report
and kind of connect it then with Operation Shamrock, and
that would be a standardized, right question, I just have
(41:55):
to I thought about having the you know, setting up
a twenty four to seven type hot hotline, right, but
it could be somebody calling I think this is a scam?
Speaker 3 (42:05):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (42:06):
But a lot of times you're going to get people
that have already fallen victim that are gonna call right
to report it. But yeah, and it just it never
came to fruition.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
But I want to. I want to. Yeah, I think
some more.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
And I think that our fight against this has to
be in baby steps like that, if we're sitting around
waiting for a national solution to fix this, we're going
to be still sitting here. So what will work in
your jurisdiction and what can you do today to make
it a little safer for people in your neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Right, yeah, absolutely. I mean if if if nationally they
were doing something about it, we wouldn't be where we're
at right now. Yeah, right, And I see a lot
of bills come through, but it seems to always be
highly focused on after it happens, and it's like, we
don't need any more victims. Let's get the education out
(42:59):
there trying them to stop, you know, to recognize it
and not become a victim.
Speaker 6 (43:07):
But all the punishing, I think, you know, it sends
the wrong message when you don't investigate and you don't
and I know for really complicated, it's complicated. I have
sympathy for law enforcement with fraud, with with you know,
cross border complexities, but I think, you know, we need
to try and make it slightly unsafer. What's commerce because
(43:31):
right now it's like, I mean, I don't know. I
think it's there's more risk of you being like in
jail for shoplifting diapers.
Speaker 5 (43:41):
Right then you.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Are one, I mean right, because when we do see that,
people get arrested and getting prosecuted, I mean they might
get eight to ten years and they're out in two
to five on good behavior and It's like they just
stolehundreds of millions of dollars and put people out on
(44:03):
the street and this is all they're getting.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
And then there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Of people that are like, why should I even report nothing?
Nobody ever gets punished for it.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
They feel like it's a wait of time.
Speaker 6 (44:17):
Yeah, and glamorizing, glamorizing process really upsets me, Like what
was happening with Anna Delvi and Netflix shows and Netflix
series and blaming victims for like accepting our gifts, and
you know, like I think that like that we need
to do better at it's it's.
Speaker 5 (44:39):
You know, would you glamorize the pedophile?
Speaker 6 (44:42):
No, no, right, just because they dressed really nicely and
they're smart you know, like I think we need to
do better there.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Oh yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
And I mean just you know, I see people on
Facebook and the next door apps and stuff like that,
and when someone is being vulnerable and talking about their
experience because they want other people to know what the
scam was that they just fell victim to, so hopefully
other people won't fall You're going to get these people
that respond and go, well.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
Just don't be so gullible. It's like, excuse me.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yeah, there really is an acceptable level of shame that
that is allowed in this place, and we wouldn't. We
wouldn't laud on any other.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
No, would we do that for a domestic violence victim? Yeah, no, Yeah,
we wouldn't.
Speaker 5 (45:34):
I think.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
But again it goes.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Back to I think everybody thinks that if you fall
I shouldn't say everybody thinks, but a lot of people
still think if you fall victim to a scam, it's
because you were stupid, you made a state.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
And it's like.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Scams have nothing to do with intelligence at all. I mean,
some of the smartest people have given away millions of dollars.
Speaker 6 (45:58):
Yeah, it's you know, like I like to think of
it this way, right, Like there are certain certain crimes
we always try to shift the blame to the victim,
and I think domestic violence was one of those until
we learn better. Sexual assaults are another one. And you know,
like it comes down to you. And you know, I've
(46:19):
heard that with like proad victims too, when you interview them.
Speaker 5 (46:22):
First thing they say, I thought it would never happen
to me. I'm intelligent, like.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I made assumed that I felt for them.
Speaker 5 (46:28):
Yeah, like, what how did this happen?
Speaker 6 (46:30):
To me.
Speaker 5 (46:30):
But the thing is, you know, like in psychology, there's
something called the just world bias, and you know, it's.
Speaker 6 (46:37):
A belief that there is justice in the world and
that like bad things don't happen to good people.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
That's karma. You hear people talking about karma.
Speaker 6 (46:46):
Karma, so if something happened to you, it must be
some kind of a you know, like effect of something you.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Did karma or something you did.
Speaker 5 (46:55):
Right, well, it's not even.
Speaker 6 (46:57):
The karma, but it's it's almost kind of like that
of control that we have, right, we think that we
can control our events. Like you hear that a lot
with like some assaults where victim freezes, right, like like
you know, fight flights like or freeze is also a
response that you just go into and you can't control.
(47:20):
But like a lot of the times we blame like
great victims for freezing instead of fighting and they didn't
get injured as injured as if they were fighting, and
they get beaten and then therefore like the credible because
they have these physical injuries. But a lot of like
these things happen because we as people have to feel
(47:40):
like we can control things that we really can't control, right,
Like you know, you can go down the street and
somebody can attack you for zero reason on that day,
like you've done nothing. You couldn't prevent it, but we
like them, you couldn't control it, but you like the
other person exactly. You can't control environment, You can't control
all a lot of things, but I think we like to.
(48:02):
There's that illusion of control, which is a cognitive bias,
and another one is believe in just.
Speaker 5 (48:07):
World, and they go hand in hand.
Speaker 6 (48:09):
Where like, and I found this sympirically as well, people
who actually exhibit the belief that scum victims aregaillable and
it would never happen to them actually more vulnerable to
fall in from email.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
I prove that because they're letting their guard down.
Speaker 5 (48:24):
Yes, exactly, but it's that belief.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
And I think it's because, you know, for us to
have a normal, happy disposition and positive alcohoc on.
Speaker 5 (48:34):
Life, we need to feel like we're in control.
Speaker 6 (48:36):
And I think a lot of it it comes down
to that that people don't but again they do it
subconsciously because they don't know better.
Speaker 5 (48:45):
Right like they truly believe they wouldn't.
Speaker 6 (48:48):
You know, I've never been in a situation where I
had to defend myself against an assault. I don't know
how I would react. I like to think I'd be
fighting and I'll be right.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
But you don't know, right Freeze, you don't know exactly,
you don't know. Yeah, so all right, well we have
like one or two minutes left.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
So in closing, what are some of the things that
people can do to help recognize a pig butchering scam?
Speaker 4 (49:18):
I think that people need to be hyper aware right
now of any electronic communication that they did not initiate.
And unfortunately that's where we live right now. That anything
that comes into your email, your text that you do
not recognize immediately, you need to check independently. And so
(49:39):
that comes down to something from your bank, something from Netflix,
or just someone who appearing to want to be your friend.
And particularly when we put ourselves in places where we're
kind of looking for friends, like on a dating app
or on a Instagram, we need to be cautious of
people that seem interested in being our friends. And we
(50:00):
really need to be good evaluators just from the outset
that people there are scammers among us.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Yes, absolutely, yeah, anything the ad Martina.
Speaker 6 (50:14):
Yeah, I would say, like I've actually even heard of
stories where victims didn't, you know, weren't approached by a
camera on the dating side.
Speaker 5 (50:22):
They approach this camera on the dating side.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
So just being.
Speaker 6 (50:25):
Really wary of like even profiles that seem really like
they resonate with you, because I'm pretty sure scammer's open profiles.
They'll study who is on the website and they tailor
make these things to be attractive. And another thing I
would say, like when you get the text I get
these text all the time that seem like prog numbers.
(50:46):
That's how big butchering starts. You didn't initiate it, but
you may think, well, it's just the wrong number.
Speaker 5 (50:53):
Let me respond.
Speaker 6 (50:54):
As soon as you respond, they'll get you in a
conversation and then it's going to be difficult to stop responding.
Really like, it's sad that we have to say these
people don't even be polite.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
But exactly, I used to be polite and respond and
say sorry, you have the wrong number. Now it's just
like delete, delete, delete, delete.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
I don't care about the party. I don't care about
you know, the delete.
Speaker 5 (51:17):
So maybe it was the legitimate party, though.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
Joyce might have been a really fun party. Who knows,
I could have right.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Oh well, anyways, thank you guys so much for joining
me today.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
This was awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
People got a lot of information and Aaron I'll reach
out set up a time to talk more about that.
But thank you guys again, thank you. All right, all
right to end it here, lots of information for everybody
about pig butchering. Thank you so much to Aaron West
(51:57):
and doctor Martina Dove for giving us a deep dive
into this. And as Aaron mentioned, be so very careful
with any communication that you get that you did not initiate.
And as doctor Martina Dove said, you know, you've got
to be wary of those text messages that you get
that say.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Seems to be a wrong number.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
We always want to be polite and respond, but this
is exactly how the pig butchering scammers start these conversations.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
So use that delete button.
Speaker 2 (52:27):
You don't have to be polite and respond, just use
the delete button. Don't forget to go to our website,
Roseadvocacy dot org. You'll find the social media links on
the homepage scroll to the bottom, sign up for the newsletters,
and you can find all of the episodes on our
YouTube channel and our let's talk about scams dot com
website and until next week.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Thank you all.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Well, that's all the knowledge for this episode. June in
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on kfour HG
Radio at KFOURHD as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge,
so you have the power to make scam protection your
healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach out
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.
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