Erin's Scam Experience with a Loved One

Erin is with us today to discuss his experience with a loved one who was and maybe still is a victim of scams - romance, investment, inheritance, and more.

Join us to get an in depth look into these scams through Erin's eyes.

Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,
legal counseling, professional service, or any advice. You should seek

(00:22):
the services of competent professionals before applying or trying any
suggested ideas. The information contained in this podcast is intended
for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for
individual professional legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled
from vetted sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to

(00:44):
safeguard the elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall
victim to a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the
must listen show for anyone who wants to protect themselves
and their loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday am Pacific
time on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose,

(01:05):
and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips
on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And
now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Welcome back everyone, I'm Joyce Petrowski, founder and board president
of Rose Resources Outreach to Safeguard the elderly. You can
find more information on our website at Roseadvocacy dot org.
You'll find our social media links on the homepage, and
if you scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll
see where you can sign up for the newsletter. We
do one via email has a lot more information, but

(01:42):
we also do one that we send in the mail,
realizing that not everybody likes to get their information and
read it on email, So you can sign up for
one or both as a way to continue to get
this scam prevention education and to help build your healthy
skepticism because you need that in today's world with how

(02:02):
rampant the scams are running. So today we have a guest.
His name is Aaron. He has been in the cybersecurity
industry as a leader for a number of years and
he's going to share his experience.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Pros. There, can you hear me, Joyce? There?

Speaker 1 (02:20):
He is.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
Left already no.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Good, good, Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
So when I introduced you, I you know, I mentioned
that you've been a leader in cybersecurity for a number
of years, but you've all, but you're here to share
your experience with one of your loved ones being a
scam victim and how it's affected your relationship, your family
and all of that. So let's start with just giving

(02:53):
whatever you feel comfortable with the background on the scam
and your your loved one.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 5 (03:01):
So this this started a number of years ago, and
that's actually how I came in contact with with you
and found found Rose because it became one of those
things that was incredibly frustrating to see happened to a
loved one, and especially being I have worked in this,
worked in cybersecurity and led teams and you know, just

(03:24):
the the resources that are simply non existent and not
available out there, because this is really comes down to
it's really not a technical problem, right, It's a human problem.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
It's an emotional problem.

Speaker 5 (03:38):
And so yeah, for for us, it started a few
years ago with my with my father in law, and
it starts really small, and so I think the thing
to think about is like just to notice those little
red flags that come up. And so for for us,
it started maybe four or five years ago. It was

(03:58):
right around COVID times. I remember really specifically because it
had started.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Right leading up to.

Speaker 5 (04:05):
Thanksgiving, and we got a you know, kind of a
weird exchange text message where he had asked for you know, hey,
I can you know, I need a little bit of
extra money or whatever I'm going to be because, uh,
our loved one, my father in law, was very dedicated
to a church, very involved constantly, you know, working on

(04:27):
projects with the church to you know, feed feed the needy.
And so one of the things that came up is
that he said, oh, you know, I can can maybe
send me two hundred bucks for we want to buy
some turkeys or whatever. It was that well, you know,
we're doing for this thing, right and and we didn't
think much of it at the time, but like in
the back of your mind, you're thinking, oh, that's it's

(04:47):
kind of a strange thing, right because normally very disciplined,
you know, fixed income, but very disciplined, very good with it.
And thinking back that, you start to think, like that
should have been a big a red flag to pick
up on.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
So, you know, noticing something like that that was.

Speaker 5 (05:04):
Out of out of the norm was, uh, it was
a red flag that we we probably should have picked
up on at that time and drilled you.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
In a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, you know, it's you know, like you said, your
father in law was very disciplined. He's on a fixed income,
which a lot of older adults are on a fixed income,
and he was very disciplined. So he he had a budget,
and he stayed within that budget and and and all
of that, and so being scammed would have been probably

(05:35):
your last thought.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
M exactly.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
No, And and.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
He was very involved in his church and and helping
those less fortunate and and.

Speaker 4 (05:45):
All of that.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
And so you're like, okay, well it makes sense that
he's going to be helping people with turkeys at the
at Thanksgiving time?

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Was there was there another after that? Was there something
that made you start to want to dive into it deeper? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yeah, So I think and and and I think this
this happens to to far too many people. And it
happened a lot with you know, his folks became a
little bit more isolated with with the pandemic, and and
so that every lots everyone challenged with that. And one
of the catalysts that really kind of accelerated our awareness

(06:24):
and concerns with with what was going on was his
his wife had passed away. And so we were, yeah,
you know, talking with him more regularly and kind of
getting a sense of it. And then the thing that
kind of came out of it was, you know, oh, hey,
I'm I'm you know, I'm I have this you know,

(06:45):
I'm gonna you know, I have this new girlfriend or
wife or whatever it is. It's going to come, you know,
move in with me, right, And so that was really
the start of the romance scam side of the okay,
because you know, and didn't didn't this clearly supprise us
that you know, you know, he was you know, you know,

(07:05):
very dedicated to his church and you know, companionship and
and all those things. And we thought, oh, that's it's quick,
but like, okay, let's let's learn more about it. And
then at that point, once we learned a little bit
more about that, he started opening up and sharing and
then you started to you start to realize that, you know, you're,

(07:26):
you know, in the midst of a of a pig
butchering scam, because it's you know, it kind of followed
followed all the same patterns of how they're going to
come move with me, Oh they can't move. There was
a car accident. Yeah, now, they're in the hospital, we
just have to you know, send some money to to

(07:47):
release them from the hospital. And so in in in
those in those situations where it's it's really challenging. And
then that's where I started doing the research to try
and find like, how do you how do you talk
to someone with this because there's no reasoning, right because
in their minds, that person's real, right, Like that's a

(08:07):
loved one about that's in the hospital that you're saying absolutely,
that's not a real thing, right, And you know, the
thing that we always try to be delicate about was
not too upset or push away and just kind of
lead with some empathy because that you take a hardline stance.

(08:31):
And my wife is way more empathetic than me and
better than it.

Speaker 3 (08:38):
I'm I am more direct in a lot of those senses.

Speaker 5 (08:40):
But but this but the second that you go to
rack and you say this is not real, this is
you know, this is bad, you risk the chance of
getting shut out, right. And so you see that all
the time across these instances where people isolate themselves from
their family because they are so ingrained with with with
their with their scamera. That's that's just grooming them constantly, right.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
Exactly right.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
So I mean did he did he ever come out
and say, like how long he had been engaging in
conversation and relationship with this person? Because you know, we
always say with the romance and the pig butchering and stuff,
there's grooming involved, right, And it the longer they're in it,

(09:24):
the harder and harder it is to try to get
them to understand while, yes, this person is real, they're
not who they say they are.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
They're not in the hospital.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
And doctor Martina Dove was on last month and she
even said, you know, people have to understand that the
groomer is a real person. It's someone that that the
victim believes has invested a lot of time with and
it's extremely difficult to change their.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Mind, oh one hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (09:58):
Especially becomes much more challenging in a remote situation where
we we live in different states, and so you know,
we we live for those few moments where either we
travel to go be there, and we've we had done
that a couple of times. And I'll kind of explain
and talk about that in a second here, but but

(10:19):
this this was with him all the time, right, all
the time, and and it's just yeah, a constant, constant
stream of you know, messages and contact. And but but
to your to your original question, uh, because we later
kind of found out that I think it had been
going on prior to that, where there was some inheritance

(10:42):
things kind of going on that had led up prior
to that of like, you know, because he had read
around that same time with the romance romance scam situation.
He had also sent a link that said, oh what
do you think of this house? Oh, it's it's going
to be mine. It's you know, it's going to be inherited, right,
And so with with many of the situations, you you know,

(11:05):
you become a you're a target rich environment, your phone
number becomes available, and then he was just getting you know,
propagated with with multiple different types of things and so and.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
He was vulnerable because he had just lost his wife right.

Speaker 5 (11:20):
Exactly exactly, and we think it maybe it started kind
of leading up to that, you know, prior to that,
but then just uh had you know, exponentiously gone gone
up after after that, and so yeah, and then and
then it got to the point after kind of those conversations,
the Thanksgiving thing, the you know, the inheritance house situation,

(11:44):
the romance scam, and the hospital thing, and then it
finally reached to the point, it was like June or
June or July where we got the phone call that hey,
actually I'm gonna I'm gonna was my my home.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
Right so he'd owned his home outright, but the you.

Speaker 5 (12:05):
Know, the the land fees and the homeowners association things
like that had gotten to the point where that wasn't
being paid for multiple months on months, months on end,
where the terms of his you know, the community that
he lived in dictated that his house was going to
go up for auction if he didn't set up those things.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
And so.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
When we got that phone call, we've sort of been
aware and having those conversations that you know, we we
knew it was, you know, uh absolutely, I'm not gonna
you know, send you a check. I'm not gonna wire
you because I I don't know where it's going to go.
So we we got car, drove and went there in
person who you know, physically I you know, we physically

(12:48):
hand delivered it to the you know, the correct agency
right that was, you know, that was responsible for the thing,
because we because at that point then you know, I'm
a very much uh you know, trust but verify, but
still not trust anyone, right, and so yeah, exactly, And
so we've gone through the paperwork and talked to the

(13:10):
the company that operated the community there, and so went
went in person and paid it. And then that's where
we spent spent a few days and really learned the
extent of of what had been going on and really
tried to work with you know, a path forward of
setting the budget, ending the communications. And I thought we

(13:34):
were in a good place. And then the second that
we left, you know, it was back to a store
to pick up a gift card. And at that point
we had you know, set up a power of attorney
and gotten to the point where we uh got on

(13:55):
access to the bank account and those kind of things,
and you know, his his account.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Was was riddled with thread flags.

Speaker 5 (14:03):
Like that weekend we were out there and talked to
his bank because there have been multiple instances where his
bank was trying to do the right thing and he
try and withdraw cash. And so he had gotten to
the point where the uh you know controls that that
banking entity had put on his account dictated that he
wasn't allowed to use an ATM, right, like they would say,

(14:24):
you want cash, you have to come inside and oh wow,
yeah and put it on there. And so then those
those are really good things, right that that that you know,
financial institution was was doing. But at the end of
the day, if he comes in and says, I need
to take twenty dollars out of my bank account, like
they're gonna.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
They can they can only stop for so long to
ask questions and to try to get But you know,
I've talked to so many people and I'm I'm sure
your father in law did this too.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
Is you know that.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
They would lie because they were already emotionally drawn in
so and the the scammer are they're anticipating these questions
that are being asked and they're giving them the responses.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Mm hmm, yep, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 5 (15:11):
And it's a it's a it's a challenging, heartbreaking situation
because it when you see it up close like that,
it really is, you know, like a drug addict, right,
It's it's someone that's a that has a physical dependency
or a drug addiction, all of that exactly. And you know,

(15:33):
there's no amount of logic and reason that's gonna gonna
shake someone out of that and so and then when
when we were there in person, that's where we realized
that just the amount of times his his phone was
just going off constantly, Right, it's just paying after paying,
after paying, after pain.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Of just you know, people asking for things.

Speaker 5 (15:56):
It's it's just a continuous cycle where and that's and
that's where you know, it becomes really challenging for people,
especially in a remote situation, is that it really comes
down to relationships and trust and and you know, having
a good enough relationship with transparency around what's going on
in your life are you communicating with online? And it

(16:19):
can become a real real challenge if that that foundational
relationship isn't.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
There, right, Yeah, and you mentioned COVID that this started
right before COVID. It just put everybody. I mean, if
that was a whirlwind for scammers, right, especially with the
older adults. They were if they didn't have somebody that
they lived with, a spouse, a partner, family, whoever it was,

(16:44):
they were isolated, right. They couldn't you couldn't go out
and play cards, you couldn't go play golf, you couldn't do.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Any of this. Everything was shut down.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
And that's a perfect storm, right, and having the vulnerabilities
of you know, your the world being so much different
now than it was when. And I'm going to say
we because I'm in that category. You know, I just
turned sixty, so I'm in that older adult category. How
we grew up. It's it's totally different, right. And I

(17:15):
find myself today, you know, just meeting somebody and they're
really nice and this and that, and I start to
I start to talk, and I'm thinking to myself, wait
a minute, Choyce, you don't know this person, right, But
it's it's kind of ingrained in you, right that everybody's
out for your best interest. You don't hang up on people,

(17:37):
you don't question authority, and you know you're always there
to help.

Speaker 4 (17:41):
So yeah, it's crazy, but but.

Speaker 5 (17:45):
Yeah, yeah, And that was a big kind of recurring
theme that we talked to because, like I said, he
was very heavily involved in his church, and so I
think part of the when we had gone out there
and started to get in contact with some of the
leadership from his church and some of the folks that had,
you know, kind of seen it firsthand, is is those

(18:05):
they were our eyes on the ground, you know, and
you know, we got to a point where we were
really thankful that folks like that that were near him,
close with him in his community were able to kind
of provide us information and tell us what was really
really going on, and.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
That was super helpful.

Speaker 5 (18:21):
But but a big thing that we talked a lot
about with many of those folks was like, what does
this say? You know, is it just you know, a
stubborn thing. Is it part of a generational thing? Is
that I don't want to ask for help? But like
I think it it really becomes something much much bigger
than that, Like I think it, Yeah, absolutely, generational and

(18:43):
cultural norms do do feed into it, but I think
it really it becomes a you know, a physical or
mental dependency and then not not letting go of that,
of that belief because you know, with you know, as
it got went ontle bit later and we started to
learn about some of the other kind of inheritance scams

(19:04):
that he was going and you're you're talking about you know,
exorbitant amounts of money, right, you know, tens of billions
of dollars that he said are going to be coming
coming to him, and then you start to you know,
you still can't have a logical conversation about it, right,
because you can't say, oh, the you know, the you're

(19:25):
going to inherit the GDP of a you know, a
sovereign nation, right, like, there's no logical reason to think it, right, that.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
Just doesn't make sense, right.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
But you and I are sitting here in our rational
thought frame of mind thinking of it. He's knee deep
in his emotions with you know, was it the same
person that was contacting him all the time or.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
Yeah, they like friends of the of the scammer. You know,
I say friends in quotes.

Speaker 5 (19:52):
Because potentially, but yeah, potentially he was on different lots
of different chat ops, right, so like you know, Telegram, WhatsApp,
all of the various different apps. Yeah, definitely using a
lot of the different money money apps, so cash app, PayPal,

(20:13):
you know, some of the Zeal some of those other
other ones, And I think, yeah, some of those are
better than others, right as far as like the controls
that they that they take place, and yeah, you know
red food flags that come up and like that even
with myself when I use that, right, like a transaction
that I had never done with someone before kind of
got got got flagged, Like oh yeah, that's that's a

(20:35):
that's a good thing. But but but I think that
that's the other thing too, is like once you know,
he got to the point where you know, hey, money
money stied. I can't I don't have the money to
to go get another fifty dollars gift card or one
hundred dollars gift.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Card or whatever.

Speaker 5 (20:51):
And and that's where we started noticing like, hey, there's
you know, there's a stack of like and he showed
us there's like a stack of you know, twenty five
different cash App debit cards that had come in, like, oh,
I have all these different cash App cards. And so
it got to the point where he was moving there.
There's instances where and this this is a common thing,

(21:12):
right where maybe that that victim has become you know,
the well has run dry, right that it's the resource
has been exhausted, but there's still some type of use
for the for the scammers where they're then saying, all right,
we'll find I'm going to send you this money. It's
going to go to this and then I need you
to go send it over here. Right, So the money

(21:32):
so exactly right and even even physical right like we've
heard that time and time again and like, hey, there's
a package coming, right, you're gonna you're gonna pick it up,
and then you're going to deliver it to this place,
and they become not only a victim, but then another, uh,
you know, part of the part of the scam itself

(21:53):
against against others.

Speaker 4 (21:54):
Right, because that that's illegal. Right.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
And in I think Brian on one of his last
episodes he did, he had Martin, who's a retired FBI
agent on and they talked about money mules and how
how a lot of the older adults are victims in
the money mule because they think they're just doing someone
a favor, you know, being nice to them, when in essence,

(22:19):
they're now entwined in this illegal activity and they don't
know it until law enforcement comes to their door and says, listen,
this is illegal.

Speaker 4 (22:29):
You need to stop, right.

Speaker 5 (22:31):
And yep, absolutely absolutely ye, And it's yeah, it's a
challenging situation.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
And I guess to.

Speaker 5 (22:41):
The path that we followed with him got to the
point where, you know, maybe a year or so afterwards,
after the this kind of can continued, we helped to
save the house the first time and got to the
point where it happened again where the bills were being paid.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Hey, I'm going to lose my home.

Speaker 5 (23:00):
And and and and that's where you have to make
a really difficult decision to say, we're gonna treat this
like a drug addict, right, like we we love you,
we can help you, we can support you, but like
not under the same constraints that we're operating in because
we're just you know, we're repeating the same the same

(23:22):
cycle and so in and ultimately with that situation, he
did end up, you know, just losing everything, right, So
to this to this to this day, and that he's
you know, safe and around. There's still people in this
community that are helping him. But it's it's still still
going on to this to this day.

Speaker 4 (23:42):
Oh he's still engaging and.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
M hm yeah, yep.

Speaker 5 (23:47):
And so yeah, and it's it's it's challenging because I
think it just has to get treated like a like
a mental mental illness. Folks need to be able to
get you know, intensive behavioral FA therapy to be able
to realize and and again going back to like what
I said of you know, finding ros and coming on

(24:07):
the board here and being able to help with the
mission is because there's a real lack of resources. Right
when something like this, especially someone someone like myself who's
been in cybersecurity and you know, seeing these you know,
various scams and and attacks on a on a daily basis,

(24:28):
and then to just kind of feel helpless.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
You're like, what do you what do you do? How
do you help this person?

Speaker 5 (24:33):
And and and try to look at it from a
you know, logical problem solving perspective, and it has to
be attacked with a you know, behavior of therapy, empathetic
approach to be able to address it, right, because it's
it's it's it's not a you know, there's no amount
of you know, technical controls that you can put on

(24:55):
your your life. Right, everyone's got the bank makes you
put multi factor authentication to log into your accounts, the
you know everyone, lots of people use password managers, right,
people don't use the same passwords. But again, it's it's
not someone that's breaking into your house and you know,

(25:15):
smashing a window and then coming in and stealing all
your things.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
It's you opening your door, welcoming and welcoming someone in. Exactly.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
You are willingly giving him this exactly. Yeah, and that.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Makes it you know, I've I've read a lot of
stories where the victims are like, you know, why didn't
the bank stop this, or they've trying to go back
to the bank to get reimbursed or get their money back,
and it's like they can't because.

Speaker 4 (25:42):
You willingly gave this money away.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yes, you were under and I'm not a psychologist Martine
would know the correct term, but maybe emotional distress or
something like that. But at the time, right it, We've
asked you all these questions, you gave us answers as
to what you were doing with the money, and in
the end, it's your money, right and unless you have

(26:09):
somebody has power of attorney, you know, or someone's on
the account with you, or I mean, I don't know
what all banks, I think their hands are tied to
a certain extent. There's probably more things that can get
implemented in the future that would make it more of
a deterrent. But like you said, it's at the end

(26:33):
of the day, if it's it's the person's money, and
if they want to get it out and they're going
to lie with some excuse, then they're going to get
the money to do with it as they please. Rights
It's really difficult and that's why getting you know, so

(26:53):
like what we tell people with Rose when I'm in
these presentations, our goal is to get you not to
go to the bank, not to go to the ATM machine,
not to go to the store to buy the gift cards,
because once you do that, you're already in that emotional
state and you're just going to lie in order to
get the money to do what you need to do,

(27:14):
to get somebody out of trouble, to get your prize,
to help get your girlfriend or boyfriend or you know,
whoever it is. And so that's why I think what
we do is so integral. It's to get people to
understand one that these scammers are out there and the

(27:35):
world is so much different now than it was back
in the seventies and eighties, and you lifted up your
cell phone before you know, we tell people, listen, this
is not just a phone. This is connected to the internet.
It's a mobile computer, and you have to treat it
as such, you know, with the antivirus, antimolware, and you
have to know that your numbers out there. It's out there.

(28:00):
People scammers know your phone number, and they're very good
at what they do.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
And so engaging with them.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
You have a short window to stop it before you are,
in essence, sucked in and you're doing exactly what they want.
So and social engineering, I don't know if we talked
about that. That's exactly what you were talking about, was
the emotional exploitation and the social engineering. And you said,

(28:27):
it's it's not a technical issue. It's a human. It's
a human and that's the social engineering part of it, which.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
Is so difficult.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
And you've lived through it and if it started back
around COVID, you've been going through this for over five years.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah, yeah, And I think.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
And as you were saying, this is kind of starting
to think about it, and is anyone else out there
that's dealing with this or or you know, going through
with a loved one. There's a really good book called
The Power of the Habit, and it really talks about
the habits that we that we have and and the

(29:10):
processes that we follow to keep and maintain.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
Good habits, bad habits, whatever it may be.

Speaker 5 (29:16):
But a key thing with it, and I think about
this with if anyone's going through a scam, is.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
That there's a trigger, you know, a ritual and.

Speaker 5 (29:25):
Then a payoff, right, and so when you think about
these these scams, that that trigger is is constantly going off, right.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
It's it's a trigger of saying.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
Hey, I need, you know, just twenty more bucks and
we'll release the funds and then you'll get it right,
and then you there's that ritual of of you know,
either going and getting the money or getting the gift
card or whatever it is, and then sending it off.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
And the scary part is that that.

Speaker 5 (29:50):
Payoff is is the hopefulness, right, is the payoff is
the is almost part of that ritual of like, oh, gosh,
I did it.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
I'm gonna you know, I'm going to get to meet
my loved one.

Speaker 5 (30:01):
Now I'm gonna I'm going to get this large inheritance,
this house is going to be mine, right, and then
the cycle repeats itself, right. And so I think that's
something that they've really really keyed in on, maybeing the
scammeras of like just that psychological loop of just you know,
the human condition of a habit of saying, you know,

(30:22):
trigger ritual payoff and then you know the scam victims
are in this perpetual hamster hamster wheel.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Wow, that's just and like you said, earlier. You know,
I think we've I've often said scammers that they want
one thing. They want all your money, right, they want
all your money. And then you know, once they've gotten
all your money, they still will use you in an
illegal you know, money mule, or they're going to steal

(30:52):
your identity to get more money. And you know, I've
I've heard from some people in the presentations. You know,
they're like, well, I don't have any money to give,
and so they think they're safe, and it's like, you're
not safe.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
I said.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
They can steal your identity and get all this money,
and then you're left to clean the mess up, you know.
And if you're fine cleaning a mess up like that
and having to go through all that, then you know,
more power to you. I'm not I had I think
you remember I had my identity stolen a year ago
with the.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
Tax return and.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
It was frustrating, right because you're on hold with the
IRS for two hours, and right, you have nobody plans
two hours in their day to be calling the irs. Right,
that's just not in your day. But yeah, there's there's
a lot of different things that they can do. And
then at some point, you know, sometimes the victims then realize,

(31:53):
oh my gosh, you know, something just snaps in there
and gets them out of that emotional state and they're
thinking rationally and they realize it's a scam. The psychological
effects it now it's it's all over again, right, and
you know it's just oh my gosh, it's I don't know.

(32:16):
It's That's why I'm like, everybody needs this preventative education, right,
It's that they need to under They don't have to
understand every single scam because you know, we would always
be behind the eight ball because they're always it's so
lucrative for the scammers. They are constantly coming up with
new ways to exploit people and take your money. But

(32:39):
I think that anatomy of a scam we did was
was phenomenal, right, and people understand the contact part of it.
They can understand all three parts of it. But if
they can cut it off, cut it off at the contact,
they are going to just have such a healthy, more fulfilling,
you know life. Yeah, it's uh, but getting people it's

(33:05):
it's one thing said, but getting people to understand why
this is needed is difficult because I hear, you know, oh, well,
my grandparents or my parents. They still have their cognitive
you know abilities. They're fine or they're really smart. You know,
they're not going to fall victim. And I don't mean

(33:25):
to be crass, but I'm like, until they do.

Speaker 5 (33:28):
Yeah, because they're shure, and it's yeah, and it's it's
only going to get more challenging for for all of us,
right because.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
Right with artificial intelligence, it's.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Exactly where I'm going with it.

Speaker 5 (33:38):
Right, Yeah, with the rise of artificial intelligence, in the
rise of the use of AI, and something is simple
like fishing, right, and you think, oh, yeah, it'll just
it'll send more you can maybe stammers can send more
phishing emails. Maybe scammers can send better phishing emails. But
when you think about the rise of cybercrime and data breaches,

(34:00):
you you know, compare that with you know, add that
with with the use of AI, and you think, like,
you know, if if if you're inbox were to be breached, right,
all of your send emails contain your voice, your tone,
how you communicate, all of that can be taken and

(34:20):
put into an AI model and we can have a
joy spot, right, and then that that joy spot can
write any phishing email in your voice, in your tone
just as good as you could, right, And and that's
that's that's the kind of things that that are that
are concerning, is that because we all laugh at the
past fishing emails where things are misspelled and you know,

(34:44):
the tone is wrong, and maybe you can tell that
maybe English isn't the first language, or there's you know,
just little those little nuanced things. AI completely changes all
of that, right, Like there's there's all of that goes
all of.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
That goes away.

Speaker 5 (34:56):
Those little you know, little breadcomb trails that maybe you're
not talking to the same right person that you're talking to,
completely go away. It's the same thing with videos, right,
Like you think about a like a legacy romance scam
where you know, you know you're.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
Dealing it would never want to come on.

Speaker 5 (35:13):
Video exactly right, And all of that is sort of
negated now, right. And that's that's the that's this that's
the one of the scariest things about it. And I
think it just kind of goes back to what you
were saying, is that prevention awareness is it's it's one
of those things where in an upfront investment and prevention

(35:34):
and awareness is better than any cure, right because once
the act has occurred, and the scam is already active,
it's going to be infinitely harder to rectify that situation.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Right, right, And you know it's I think, uh, I
don't know. I think there's a lot of people that
in the in they're subconscious, they think, well, that'll never
happen to me, or they if they're you know, at
an independent living you know, community, they're like, oh, well,

(36:08):
that'll never happen to our residence.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
It's like it probably already has.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
And if you're thinking has great, And if you're thinking
that'll never happen to me, you're now one of the
more vulnerable ones. Because you're going into it thinking it
will never happen, you are now more at risk to
falling victim. I mean, I had a friend of mine
who is one of those Google experts, right, never thought

(36:34):
he'd fall victim to a scan. He fell victim and
lost a couple hundred dollars. But he was like, I
never he goes, I'm on the computer twenty four to seven,
I do this Google right, And I'm like, you're human.
You were excited to do the survey because you thought
you were going to get this prize, and you wanted
that prize. It was something you were going to go
buy anyways, and now you're getting it at eighty percent off,

(36:56):
So you're not even thinking, well, this doesn't make sense.
This is too good to be true, right Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:02):
And that's that's the age old adage, right if it's
if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
And I think, yeah, I think one of the things
that maybe you could have done a better job with,
or anyone could do a better job with, is just
you know, just enforcing the thought of like a trusted contact,
right like if someone is reaching out to you, you know, blindly,

(37:27):
right Like, it's the same thing with with with with children,
right Like, there's a ton of really really good controls
that Apple and Android put in place to support you know,
trusted contacts.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Right So when you set.

Speaker 5 (37:38):
Up a you know, a phone, watch, iPad whatever for
for a child, you can set up the concept of
trusted contacts where in order for someone to be able
to communicate with that with that with that miner, they
have to be authorized, that has to go through an
approval process, that has to be an email or phone
number that the parental guardian says, yep, absolutely, you can

(38:01):
this is you know, Billy or Susie's phone number or
their email and then you put him in this authorized
contact and anyone else just gets deny listed. And that's
and that's something that as a general concept that you
everyone should think about. It's like if you you know,
get a you know, text message or social media message

(38:23):
that you know, just not going to respond to that, right,
most people shouldn't.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
Right right?

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Wow, Wow, that's uh. I was just thinking back to
what you were talking that you're that your father in
law is still as far as you know, involved in it,
but has lost his home, Thank goodness. He has people friends, church,
friends where he lives that are helping him and that

(38:53):
you guys have contact with so you can keep tabs
on what's going on. But wow, well, you know it's
you know, I'm sitting here thinking, well, you know, what,
is there just some way to say something that's already
been said that maybe we'll, for lack of a better term,
snap them out of it?

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Right?

Speaker 4 (39:14):
Yeah, that's tough.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
Yeah, yeah, and it takes. Yeah, it's uh, it can
can be really tough. And I think the other piece
is that it takes to your point you you often
ask yourself that same thing as like what what can
I do? Differently, what can I do to snap them
out of it? And I think that's that's another piece
that it takes a toll on the loved ones that

(39:38):
are that are involved because they think constantly like what
can I do to stop this?

Speaker 3 (39:43):
What can I do? What could I have done more?

Speaker 5 (39:45):
And you end up in this kind of self shame,
self blaming cycle where in all reality, like it depends
on where they are in the in the state of
the scam, but like there's not a whole lot that
you you could have done, because again it's it's exactly
like a drug addict, right is that you know, just
like you can't you know, they say you can't get

(40:08):
sober for for other people, or you can't you know,
stop to drugs for people for yourself exactly. And I
think that's the that's the same mindset and methodology that
that folks need to think about with with scams.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
And so.

Speaker 5 (40:23):
You know, it still at the same time being supportive
and helpful and you know, being there emotionally for someone
and caring for them, but at the same.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Time, there's no amount of reason or.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
Logic that can can get get through that, get through
that barrier.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
And I think that's difficult for some people. It puts
them into They might start leading with empathy, but then
I think they are frustration comes in and you have
to be very careful with that because you're thinking reasonably
and logically.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
They're not right there. They they've been.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
They've been brainwashed right to think a certain way. And this,
the scammer that they're dealing with, like doctor Doctor Dove said,
is a real person, and to them, it's one of
their trusted people, right, just like a family member might
be a trusted person, just like a good friend might

(41:25):
be a trusted person. The scammer is one of their
trusted people. And although I hate to see, you know,
families have a rift between them, but I can I
can also see where where someone can get really frustrated
with it.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:46):
Yeah, and then that's a totally normal feeling to have
with it, because it is incredibly frustrating, right because we
go back to the you know, the logic and reason
of it, and and there there there's no logic reasons.
Sometimes it's it's it's that trusted person, and that can
be it can be devastating to a family right, because

(42:07):
you see it, see a loved one, and you think, like,
you know, they're trusting this you know, random person on
telegram over over me, right, And that can be like
emotionally devastating and have really deep impacts for the rest
of the rest of the family. And everyone deals with
that differently, but it can be really emotionally challenging to
see someone going through that. And then because you, like

(42:31):
I said before, you start to kind of blame yourself
and you get concerned that, you know, what could I
have I done more? Why does this you know, why
is this love one believing someone else over me? And
it really goes back to the you know this this
phone is with them constantly and like I said, going
back to when we were out there with them, just
the amount of you know, once once you're in that

(42:54):
that cycle for for scammers and they have a you know,
a you know, victim on the on the line, they're
going to do everything too absolutely to keep to keep
them engaged. Right.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
It's you know, it's it's strong, strong calls to action,
strong hooks.

Speaker 5 (43:11):
Like it's like I said, spone was was buzzing constantly, constantly, constantly.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Right, They keep that constant contact that if they're not texting,
they're calling, they're on like Telegram, WhatsApp, because those are
I know WhatsApp is encrypted. I'm assuming Telegram is as well.
Those are those encrypted apps, which you know, part of
our presentation is is if you're sending personal if that's

(43:39):
the only way that you're sending personal information, you know
those apps are encrypted right to be able to use those.
But then again, just like they're just like these these
technologies out there for good for everybody, and artificial intelligence
was brought out for good, right, and it's available to
scammers and they doesn't take them long, but they figure

(44:02):
out how to use it to their advantage. It's I
think Bill had had something a year or so ago,
a slide that actually showed that cyber crime was like
the third when when they list the industries that make
the most money in the year, cyber crime was like
number three.

Speaker 5 (44:21):
Mm hm oh yeah, you know, it makes makes total
total sense and yeah, yeah, I mean I think I
think that's the other thing when you when you have
these conversations with loved ones and you think, you know,
what are the who am I communicating with and and
what platforms? Right, because same thing Facebook Messengers is end
to end encrypted, but then it comes down to who

(44:43):
are you engaging with, how did they come into contact
with you? And then why are you engaging with them? Right,
there's all of these different you know, encrypted messaging apps
and some some are you know, they yes, they serve
a very valid purpose, right. End end encryption is super
important for protecting the confidentiality and privacy of messages being

(45:05):
sent from one person to to another and then doesn't
let the organization in the middle read or if it's intercepted. Right,
I think that plays a really really valid role. But
there's there's bad things that happen on these platforms. There's
reasons why criminals and cyber criminals and other types of
criminals navigate to those those types of platforms because you know,

(45:28):
there's little social moderation that that happens, little account validation
that happens, and so yeah, if you uh, you know,
get on that platform, you can you can be anyone.
It's the same thing conversation I have with with my
kids is that on online you can be anyone.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Right.

Speaker 5 (45:46):
I think that's the conversation that has to start start early,
because you know, it's it's a it's a problem that
plagues you know, preteens and teens that are you know,
getting their devices for the first time, and then that
continues throughout their entire entire life cycle. And so that
I think that'll be one of the really interesting things
to see happen is this current generation of one of

(46:08):
the first generations that has grown up kind of like
a digital and AI native generation that's that's growing up
of how the scammers were will evolve over time because
crime crime is never going to go away, It's just
going to continue to happen.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
It's just you know, how we.

Speaker 5 (46:26):
You know, increase that awareness and learn and grow with
that to get an understanding of how this this next
generation is going to is going to grow up with it.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's wow.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
It's uh yeah, I think back, you know, like I
said too, when I grew up in man totally different world,
totally different. I was watching a Facebook real last night
and there was some lady on there talking about she
was like, during the day, we were not allowed inside
the house. We had to be outside, and companies made

(47:01):
ads to remind parents they had kids that were outside, right,
And it was just like it was like, yeah, because
you know, some people didn't have a TV, right, other
people had TVs, but they were off all the time.
It was like, go outside, go outside and play, right.
But back then we didn't have to worry about, you know,

(47:22):
someone coming along and snatching us. It just didn't happen, right,
I mean it happened, but it was so rare that
it happened. You just didn't have to worry about those things.
And now with all of the technology, like you said,
everybody from whenever, whenever they get a phone, right, they're

(47:46):
on it constantly.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Yeah, right, and.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
They can be they can be whoever they want, and
whoever they're talking to can be whoever they want.

Speaker 4 (47:57):
A lot of people.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Hide behind social media, texting, all of that stuff.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's that's the.

Speaker 5 (48:08):
That's the the expansion of the remal possibilities, right, because
when you think about you know, going outside, right, Like,
and I think about this in this conversation I have
with my kids all the time. It's like, there's much
more risk in the Internet and with with you know,

(48:28):
an unmonitored, uncontrolled internet than the physical proximity, I think, right,
because you can control physical proximity, there's less people uncontrolled,
unmonitored Internet access at any any age is significantly you
you widen your you know, you know, who can take
advantage of you or who can contact you becomes you know,

(48:52):
the entire world, right versus those that are you know,
in physical proximity.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
And that's that becomes much much more dangerous.

Speaker 5 (48:59):
And also because like to your exact point, is that
it could be anyone, right, It's that is the that
is the key recurring theme across all of these scams
is that someone pretending that they're that they're not right.

Speaker 4 (49:11):
Yeah, I mean it's.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
You lose a lot more control online and you can't
control what the other person is doing saying whatever. The
only thing you can control is your action or reaction
or lack thereof. Right, you just say, I'm not responding
to this, right. I constantly get text messages from a

(49:35):
random number with just a very innocent text that I
would normally years ago respond to with sorry, you have
the wrong number, and then they respond with something to
get you into a conversation. A friend of mine told
me recently they responded like wrong number, and then they
responded back, and after a couple times responding back and

(49:58):
forth in conversation and my friend realized, wait a minute,
what am I doing. I don't know this person, and
then cut it off. But that's how a lot of
times it started is just these random right messages, and
and your control is yourself. You're either in action, action

(50:19):
or reaction.

Speaker 5 (50:21):
Yep, yeah, absolutely, And yeah, I mean I think, like,
don't get me wrong, I love all of those you know,
scammer wasting time videos that I see. And you know,
I think there's there's some folks that do it really
really well. I think you're average person that you know,
it's it's it's just a validation, right, you pick up
that phone, you respond to that text message. You know,

(50:43):
it's just a validation that Yep, this is an this
is a this is a this is the target, right, Like,
this is a phone that works with the person that
picks up. And then you just be you know, you
you go on another another list for you know, because
if it's if it's romance, yeah, not romance, it's inheritance.
If it's not inheritance, it's I support, right, So you
just kind of go down that that iterate that list.

(51:05):
But yeah, that's the thing that's like, yeah, like I said,
Don't get me wrong, I love all of those videos. I
think I think they're good. I think there's some folks
out there on YouTube that make really great content specifically
around that. But I think your average person that uh,
you know, it's better to like just like I said
with with you know, setting up you know, a phone
for your kids is setting up a trusted context list

(51:28):
that just denial lists everyone that that you haven't haven't approved. Right,
that's the you know, the model that many companies have
gone to. Right, it's just a zero trust mindset and
methodology of deploying technology that just you know, you assume,
assume breach, you assume scam, right, Like, you just build
your life in this moddle of of you know, this

(51:49):
is not a trusted contact. I don't know this person,
you know, just filter that, filter that out of my life.
Like I think that's that's one of the mindsets that
we just have to adapt to.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
And that's that's all part of the healthy skepticism, Right.
You don't have to then get farther into it and
start asking, you know, then going back and verifying and
all of that. You're just like, Nope, don't know this person,
zero trust. Get you know, get rid of it. And
if you, like you said, you you get on a list,
you start responding, you get you get on a list

(52:19):
that you're it's it's a valid phone number, somebody will
answer or respond back to you.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
And scammers are so good.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
You might not fall for the romance one or the inheritance,
but guess what, you fell victim to the it support.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
They are just going to keep.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Hounding you and hounding you and hounding you and exactly,
and they're going to get you at a time where
you're not thinking clearly and you're going to click, You're
going to call a number, and.

Speaker 4 (52:47):
You're just knee deep into the scam by that point.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 5 (52:51):
Yeah. And I think that's I think you hit on
a really good one there, that that folks should also
be aware of if they're talking with their loved ones
or or even for themselves. It's like, if there's that
strong call to action with that immediacy, that that should
be a red flag, right, that should always be a
red flag for for anything. If they're saying, hey, I
have you on the phone right now, You've got to
do this this thing right now, that that is absolutely

(53:15):
absolutely a red flag and so you see this with
then we talked about the use of AI and voice
modulators and videos and those things, and and then that
will continue to get worse, right, And you hear about
these these horror stories of hey, you know the kidnapping scams, right, like, hey,
you hear you know a voice that sort of sounds

(53:36):
similar to a loved one or or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
And there's that strong I just like the loved one,
right exactly.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
And so the use of AI is going to continue
to propagate that and advance advance that. But understanding that
strong call to action is a huge, huge red flag.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
Yeah, yeah, well I was just looking at the time.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
We are just a couple of minutes before one is
going to get in the chat and go.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
You need to wrap it up.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
So thanks Erin for coming on and sharing your story.
And I'm going to say some prayers and hope that
your father in law is able to realize the scam
and and get his life back on track.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
And in a good way.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (54:27):
And yeah, for anyone out there listening, just yeah, talk
to your talk to your loved ones early, early, and often. Right,
you can start as as young as you know, your
nieces and nephews and children.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
And I think, like we talked.

Speaker 5 (54:39):
About before, the whole reason I became involved with Rose
because as a security professional, I felt helpless and I
didn't know where to go. And these resources and education
and awareness are are fundamental to preventing preventing this and
so but but but we can't do it all. You
can't do it all. We have to enable everyone to

(55:00):
be able to have those tools and resources to go
have conversations just like this one, to be able to
educate and make aware. So folks, you know, it starts
to start to have that in the back of their
minds as they as they go through their their normal
daily lives.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Right right, absolutely, all right, Well, thank you again, Erin,
and I'll see you in a couple of weeks at.

Speaker 4 (55:24):
The board meeting. Ye all right, thank you, Thanks by bye.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
All right everyone, Wow, that was that was quite the story.
We hit on romance scam, inheritance, money mules, all of that,
and so, as Aaron talked about with his his experience,
the best thing we can do is to continue to

(55:52):
talk about scams and and understand just basic, you know,
basic understanding on how scams work and have that trusted contact.
You want to be able to have that with, especially
on your phone. Right, as Aaron equated it to the kids, right,
nobody gets to be in your contact list unless they've

(56:14):
been verified by your trusted contact, which for a child
is normally going to be the parents you know, or
their or their guardian. But having this education, this awareness
about scams, and you don't have to know every single
scam and how every single scam works, but having the
awareness about scams in general, and then putting things in
place that can help protect yourself.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
But we all have to remember that.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
We're human and by being human, we are susceptible and
vulnerable to falling victim to scams, and so we have
to watch out for each other. Getting regular education on
scams is really the best way to keep scam pervention
in the back of your mind. We have a lot

(57:02):
of ways that you can do that. Yet we have
the in person program where we come out and go
over all of this. Get on our website and we've
got a tab that says schedule your presentation and have
us come out to talk to your group. There's also
our social media channels. Right now, we're still not back
up on Facebook. We're working on it. I'm hoping it's

(57:24):
going to be soon, but it's been about a month
now that we've been down. But we are on LinkedIn,
We're on Instagram, we're on YouTube. You can find all
of these radio shows on YouTube. And we also have
the Let's Talk about Scams dot com website, but you're
on the homepage Roseadvocacy dot Org. Scroll down to the bottom.

(57:47):
We have a mailed newsletter and we have an emailed newsletter.
Emailed newsletter, you're going to get a Tuesday Tip nine
to fifteen. Every Tuesday morning you need to, you get
a tip and it just helps you keep that scam
prevention in the back.

Speaker 4 (58:02):
Of your mind. All right.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Time is way over and so I need to go
and I look forward to seeing you guys next week.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. Tune in
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.
So you have the power to make scam protection your
healthy habit. And until then, feel free to reach out
to Joyce and Let's talk about Scams