August 12, 2025 • 45 mins
What do you do if you have been the victim of an internet related scam? Who should you call? Can you get your money back? We will be talking with retired FBI agent Martin Hellmer about his experiences investigating scams and he will share advice on what to do if it happens to you or someone you love.
Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.
Let’s Talk About Scams is broadcast live Tuesdays at 8AM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Let’s Talk About Scams TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Let’s Talk About Scams Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Disclaimer: The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional / legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted sources and references; however, R.O.S.E. Resources / Outreach to Safeguard the Elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to a scam.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/let-s-talk-about-scams--6483699/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,
professional service, or any advice.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You should seek the services.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational
purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional
legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted
sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the
(00:45):
elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to
a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen
show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their
loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday at am Pacific time
on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose,
(01:06):
and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips
on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And
now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Good morning everybody, and welcome to Let's talk about scams.
My name is Brian Watson. I'm a community outreach specialist
for Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly, and I'm
filling in for Joyce. It's been about four or five
weeks now, and the plan is to have Joyce back
next week. So those of you have been patiently waiting
(01:41):
for Joyce's return, the plan is for her to be
back next week. I've really enjoyed filling in for Joyce
and I appreciate her giving me the opportunity to host
this radio show. So today we have a guest. Today's
guest is Mark Helmer. He is a retired FBI agent
(02:04):
and he's the newest member of the Rose Advisory Committee. Martin,
are you there? We'll just have to wait a second.
Here will Martin's pops up on the screen, Give it
(02:26):
a second here. Technology is great, but every now and
then we run into little little snot foos. We had
Martin at the top of the show.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Is here, I am hi, I'm here now?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
All right, awesome, we're seeing you can hear me.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Thanks for joining today. All right, let's start out. How
long did you work for the FBI.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Martin.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Ye yep, it's freezing up. We're gonna have to hold
on a second hair. Martin's feed has frozen.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
There you are. I'm back. I've I might need to
relocate to make this work better. Let me okay, let me,
let me see if I can find a better spot.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
All right, We'll just hold on a second hair. Martin
will be right back. I had the pleasure of meeting
with Martin about a month ago up in Phoenix.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And its very interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Our career paths crossed a lot of the same types
of cases, and we know a lot of the same people,
but we'd actually never met each other because I was
based with the I R S and Tucson and Martin
was based with the FBI up in Phoenix, and so
(04:02):
we know a lot of people in commons. So it
was fun going out to lunch and just sharing experiences.
All right, how does that sound?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I can hear you. Good, now, I can hear well.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Let's start from the top, Martin. How long did you
work for the FBI.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I was in the FBI for twenty three years. I
entered the FBI in November twenty twenty two and just
retired this last May.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
And then you're also a Certified Public accountant. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, that's right. I worked as a CPA, worked in
practiced as a CPA for five years before joining the FBI,
and I've maintained my license through the years.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
And you were a special agent with the FBI, is
that correct?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
That is correct, yes.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
And as a special agent, what types of cases did
you investigate?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Well? I worked a broad range of cases during during
the course of my twenty fi three years in the FBI.
I started out, because I did enter the FBI right
after nine to eleven, I started out working terrorism cases.
Every new agent seemed to be assigned to work terrorism matters,
and that's what I did, especially in the Washington, d C.
(05:14):
Field Office where I was first assigned. But then I
transferred to Phoenix. After doing a stint at FBI headquarters,
I transferred to Phoenix in twenty eleven and I worked
cyber crimes for about eight years. I headed up the
Arizona Cybercrime Task Force out of the FBI's Phoenix Field Office,
(05:35):
which is a great experience. And then I transferred over
to work why collar crime beginning in about twenty nineteen,
and during that period was during that period that I
mostly became familiar with a lot of the online scams
that I think we're going to talk about today. We
touched on a few of them. We investigated several of
(05:56):
those types of online scams when I was doing cybercrimes,
really a majority of them that I encountered and then
I investigated as a special agent. We're done in the
last seven or so years of my career working white
collar crime.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, and that's why it's great that we have you
on the advisory committee for ROSE. Get connected with Rose.
How did that work out?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well? I provided a presentation to the FBI Citizens Academy
about five or so years back. I spoke to the group. Now,
the FBI Citizens Academy is a collection of people who
go through in every FBI field office, all the fbis
(06:43):
field offices, we host a citizens Academy and it's usually
a group of thirty to fifty people who just want
to get to know more about the FBI. So what
we do is we host that group for a series
of I think about eight classes over a span of
eight weeks, and we just provide them education about the
(07:03):
different violations, different programs in the FBI works. What we do,
we take them up to the shooting range one day.
So anyway, five years ago or so, I was asked
to provide a presentation to the Citizens Academy class going
through at the time on white collar crime, and I
did so, and afterwards, another advisory board member approached me
(07:30):
and Bill celler day and he asked if I'd be
willing to talk to Joyce about what I was doing
and perhaps partner with Rose to educate the elderly community.
And then I've been associated with Rose ever since.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Oh, that's awesome. So I've got to know Bill as well.
He's spoken in my class at U of A. I
know Bill and Joyce have known each other for a
long time. I'd like to say that Joyce's superpower is
finding people with amazing talent and having them join our team,
because we have some superstars that volunteer with Rose. All Right,
(08:08):
what is the Internet Crime Complaint Center? People talk about it,
but I'd love to hear what it is from an
FBI former FBI agent's point of view.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That Crime Complaint Center is actually physically located in West Virginia.
But there's a bunch of people who work there whose
sole job is to take reports of crime, and there
are two ways to report crime with you.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So a lot of times when I was a special
agent with the I R S and when I've been
working for ROSE for the last two years, we tell
people anybody that's lost money on the Internet to file
a report with the i C three dot g o V.
So it's the Internet Crime Complaint Center IC three dot
(09:04):
g o V. And my understanding of it, it is
a clearing house for anything Internet related crime. And because
we tell people file a report at IC three dot
gov and at Federal Trade Commission dot gov, and then
I know that this IC the IC three provides the
(09:26):
information for the FBI's Elder Fraud Report and it ROSE.
We are big fans of the FBI's Elder Fraud Report
because it it verifies what our mission is and it rose.
Our mission is to prevent older adults from getting scammed.
So every year when I do presentations, I always refer
(09:51):
to the FBI's Elder Fraud Report, which is taken by
IC three dot up. Martin, you froze up there? Can
you hear me now?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I can hear you now? Yes, apology?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
You were talking about the Internet Crime Complaint Center it's
based in West Virginia. It's like a clearinghouse for everything
Internet related crime.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
We want people to report.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
How do you how do you report if you've been
victimized by an Internet related crime?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
How do you do that? How do you report it?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well? Okay, so there's to report to the FBI. There
are three ways to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, which
is either online at IC three dot gov. That's the
number three IC three dot gov, or by calling one
eight hundred call FBI. Both of those means we'll get
(10:43):
we'll connect you to the Internet Crime Complaint Center to
report a crime. The third option is to just either
call or stop by the local FBI field office and
report crime there and ask to see the duty agent.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
So what are the most common scams they get reported
to IC three.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So so every year, the Internet Crime Complaint Center releases
an annual report which highlights details the top crimes reported
every year. Unfortunately, since the Internet Crime Complaint Center has
been releasing the report, and that's ben since two thousand,
crime has only been reported crimes anyway, I have only
(11:21):
been on the uptick. But this year, so the twenty
twenty four report was released in May. The number one
reported crime online crime to the Internet Crime Complaint Center
was investment fraud, and that's in large part due to
a really trending prevalent scam right now called pig butcher
(11:43):
Second most reported was something called we refer to as
business email compromise. The third was romance or confidence scams,
tech support fraud, and government impersonation scams.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Absolutely, so you mentioned pig butchering, and we've covered that
a lot here at ROSE. I actually learned about pig
butchering about three years ago or two and a half
years ago from the Rose website when I was still
a federal agent, and I said, what in the world
is that? And Joyce had interviewed a psychologist who talked
about pig butchering, and I'm like, what are these people
(12:21):
talking about? And as soon as I watched the video,
it all made sense to me, and I've met victims
of it. Please explain what pig butchering is to our
listeners and viewers out there.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Sure. First, I think it's important to explain that the
people who the criminals who do the pig butcher and
scam are organized. They work in many cases in big
office buildings, usually located overseas, many of them in Southeast Asia.
But they're organized and they know exactly what they're doing.
(12:55):
It's a very deliberate attack that they perpetrate on people.
And usually the way it begins is through a random
text message or contact on some social media site by
from someone who you don't know, and they pretend to
be trying to reach out to someone else, very innocently,
(13:18):
so and you tell them, in fact that I had
one contacting me this weekend, and I knew exactly what
it was. High. It said, High, Linda, this is this
is Raina. I'm coming to the Northern Virginia. I have
a Northern Virginia number for my time when I was
living in the DC area. I'm coming to Northern Virginia.
Will you be around? And if I actually played along
(13:41):
and I responded I said, no, I don't live there anymore.
But what can I help you with? And oh, I'm sorry,
I thought this was Linda. That's the way it starts.
And then they keep they maintain a relationship. And that's
what Raina was trying to do with me. She was
trying to maintain an email relationship or a text message
relationship with me.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
All Right, we're frozen up again. Oh no, I know
where he's going with this, because these these professionals out there. Yeah, yeah, Martin,
you need to be in the same room as as
the router, wherever that is. I'll I'm gonna let him
(14:27):
know that via text here because he's getting we're losing
the internet connection.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
You're back, I'm back, Paul.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So our engineer is saying, you need to be in
the same room as the router. If possible, that would
that would be beneficial so we don't lose contact. So
(14:57):
I'm just gonna have to I'm gonna have to tell
Martin's story. So, like he's saying, a lot of these
pig butchering contacts are random scams where someone gets a
text message and they're nice and they respond like, no,
you've got the wrong number. Oh I thought you were Linda.
Oh okam, sorry how do And they'll just if someone's nice,
(15:23):
they'll get engaged in a text message chain with with
with someone. But it's kind of crazy. Martin's a retired
FBI special agent and he was being targeted for pig
butchering over the weekend. Like he said, he was playing
along a little bit just to see what they would do.
But they're going to reach out to every single one
(15:45):
of us. If you haven't gotten one of these random
text messages where someone just is trying to start a
conversation with you via text, it's.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
You're going to get it.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And then what eventually they do is they will bring
up the idea the concept of investing in cryptocurrency. They
all make a mention that, oh, I've made a ton
of money via bitcoin. It's done very well for me.
I can retire now, I travel the world. And you know,
(16:19):
we all.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Want to.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
We all want to make money, we all want to
be successful, and there's a little bit of greed in
every one of us. And that's why this pig butchering
scam works. Its people fall for it. All right, Martin,
are you close to the router now?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yes, I'm closer now, Okay, going all the way into
my daughter's room. I think I'm good now.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Okay, So now we've got to see three rooms here
of your house. So far you have a beautiful place.
So I was just explaining you were talking about pig butchering.
You start a little innocuous or innocent conversation online with
someone and eventually they they suggest the idea of investing
(17:05):
in cryptocurrency is that how it works.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That's that is the way it works. They always introduce
after they've established a relationship and confidence of the person
who they're targeting, they will ask if that person might
be interested in investing in some sort of a crypto investment,
and they'll always let them know that hey, I've already
(17:28):
made a bunch of money doing this, and they'll usually
present totally fake statements which show that they've made a
bunch of profits, but it's all fake. And then unfortunately,
many victims trust what this weather person is telling them,
and they it's a devastating crime to many people who
(17:51):
have sent their life savings overseas to these people, trusting
that their investments are going toward, you know, crypto investment
and making money. But it all ends the same. They
are unable to pull out any of the supposed profits,
and then eventually the criminal on the other side just
stops communicating with the person who they victimized.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Is there any way of getting that money back?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
There is, but it's very difficult. Because most of these
scams originate overseas. It's hard for US authorities to repatriate
the money. To find the money first of all, and
then get it back to the United States. The FBI
and no US either federal law enforcement agency or local
(18:42):
law enforcement agency, has jurisdiction to operate outside of the
US borders. So we must rely on relationships and treaties
with foreign governments where these crimes have occurred for law enforcement,
and in many cases the cooperation just isn't there. If
(19:03):
the cooperation is there, it's still difficult because these guys
committing the criminals committing these crimes are good. They take
steps to hide themselves, to anonymize themselves online, to make
it difficult for law enforcement to find them. So there
are all sorts of hurdles to finding the stolen money
(19:23):
and getting it back to the United States. Now, we
have had some success, the US government has had some
success through the years in successfully getting money back to victims,
but those unfortunately, those cases are rare because of the
difficulties I just described.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, And that's why I mentioned at the beginning of
the show. Our mission at Rose is to prevent people
from losing money in the first place. And you know,
it's a tough challenge for us, but we're up for
the challenge, and that's what we're trying to do. I mean,
just the fact that we're talking about this today will
prevent someone from falling for that text message that comes
(20:04):
in and they can identify it. So we know it's
difficult to get the money back. But why is it
still important to report losses?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Well, because I'll talk specifically about reporting losses to the FBI.
The FBI has a team of analysts who can connect
the dots, so who can put pieces of the puzzle together,
just with different reports of crime from different people. So
(20:36):
while let's say someone in the Phoenix area might have
only lost a small amount of money, say it's I
don't want to say it's one hundred dollars. If someone
lost to a pig Buttons game, I would still encourage
someone to report that to the FBI because there might
be an email address, there might be some phone number,
some piece of information included in that report that can
(20:59):
help an FBI agent working the overall gang of which
that person, that criminal might be a part, solve the crime,
find where they are. Maybe that person who stole one
hundred dollars from the victim here in Phoenix, maybe he
or she failed to anonymize himself when he went online
(21:21):
one day, and we can find that IP address and
trace it back to who did this thing. So we
really encourage folks to report the crime.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
And then I get this question all the time. Okay,
I report to the federal you know, the federal government.
Should I also file a police report in the city
or town that I live in.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
That's a really good question, and I would recommend that, yes,
folks report being victimized to both the local law enforcement
agency and to the FBI and the because those two
agencies will talk with one another, they'll figure and some
(22:04):
there are sometimes when both agencies will we'll begin investigating
a case, but there's usually some deconfliction along the way
and one will take the lead. But in many cases,
the FBI, because of limited resources at both the field
office level, the investigator level, and at the US Attorney's
(22:24):
office level, the ability to prosecute the crimes there are
limited resources. Local law enforcement agencies, although they also have
limited resources, might take smaller cases. So I'd really encourage
folks to report to both agencies.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Is there any reason to report an unsuccessful scam attempt
where someone thinks they were the attempted victim of pig butchering,
or if someone got a phishing email or a smishing text,
or some sort of you know, phone called grandparents scam,
jury scam. Is there any reason for people to report that?
(23:05):
Or should people only report if they've actually physically lost money?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
No, I would encourage folks to report even small things. Now,
smishing emails or smishing attempts. Phishing emails are very prevalent.
They're widespread, So I think the FBI local law enforcement
(23:32):
agencies would be deluged with a barrage of reports if
everyone reported every attempt that was made against them. So
with discretion, I would encourage folks. Maybe they respond to
a text, during an email, maybe they begin in interaction,
but they're not necessarily victimized. Those sorts of things. I
(23:53):
would encourage folks to report because, again, it enables analysts
and investigators to connect dots.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
So we mentioned that pig butchering a lot of times
starts with like these random text messages that are meant
just to engage someone in a texting conversation. A lot
of pig butchering also starts via romance scams. You know,
where someone's online and someone reaches out to them on Facebook,
(24:26):
Messenger or Words with Friends or a dating site, and
they start this online relationship. You had when we went
out for lunch. You had talked about meeting a victim
of a romance scam and the person didn't think they
were being victimized. Share what you learned interacting with this victim,
(24:47):
like the psychology behind it. You know how deep they
were into this scheme where they this person didn't believe you,
and you were an FBI agent with a badge, you know,
in credentials.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Right. So, both pig butchering and romance scams are a
type of fraud that we refer to as confidence frauds
confident scams because the person on the other side who's
doing the victimizing establishes the confidence of the victim so
much so that I encountered a few times conversations or
(25:27):
countered victims of these types of crimes who, even though
I was there presented my FBI credentials and I was
telling them that they were being scammed, they would not
believe me. They were so entrenched in the story, they
so believed the story and trusted that the other person
was telling them the truth that they didn't believe me,
(25:48):
standing right there in their living room telling them that
they had been scammed. And the instance that you reference
that we discussed over lunch, this woman had lost over
five hundred thousand dollars. She'd said, over five hundred thousand
dollars to this person who she had fallen in love
(26:08):
with online. She'd never met him in person, but he
told her, as it goes with all romance scams, he
told her a fantastical story that he had been in
the He was an American, but he'd been in the
French Foreign Legion and he was stuck overseas in Africa,
and he needed money. First. The first thing he needed
(26:29):
money for was to pay a hospital bill, otherwise they
weren't going to discharge him from the hospital. And then
he needed taxes to pay the government so that he
could get out of the country. Then he needed to
pay a fee to get his passport in order, and
then he needed money for the plane ticket, and then
it goes on and on and on, and she absolutely
believed what he was telling her as far fetched as
(26:51):
it got along the way, so much so that she said,
I have a call scheduled with him this afternoon. He
is supposed to be making his plane flight to come
and see me. Would you like to talk to him?
I said, no, you need to stop communicating with this person.
This is a waste, This is this is a scam
(27:13):
you were He is only taking advantage of you for
your money. But she would not believe me. Even when
I left that day, she did not believe what I
told her.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Could you go and reach out to a family member
or friend of hers to try to stop her? Or
was that not possible in that case?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yes? We, in fact we did after the fact. Now
it took us a little bit to track down a
daughter who she had in the area. We did track
down her daughter and let her know what was happening.
Now I don't know what happened from there. But unfortunately,
in many of these cases, especially in romance scams, after
(27:55):
victims have been bled dry of their money, the criminals
start using their victims to unwittingly launder money for them.
So when they sense that a victim has norm more
money to send, they will ask them to be a
pass through through their bank accounts, usually of money from
(28:18):
other romance scam victims to them. So and unfortunately these
people unwittingly start engaging in money laundering, a crime when
these things happen, and that's what the stage at which
this woman was when I spoke to her, and that's
what I passed along to her daughter. I let her know, listen,
your mother's now unwittingly engaging in a crime. We should
(28:41):
do something about this. Well.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
And then that's what's referred to as a money mule.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes, that's right. We refer to those times focus money mules.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
And a lot of times these money mules are committing crimes,
but they're also victims at the same time, and so
I know a lot of times federal government doesn't want
to prosecute them because they're not really getting much out
of it. They might get a little cut or a
small kickback or something, but they're being dominated and controlled
(29:15):
by the criminal. I know, when we were in southern Arizona,
our agencies would go out and talk to these money
mules and say, cut it out, you're being the victim,
and you know a lot of times they would continue that, no,
this is my boyfriend. I'm just helping them out. You know,
we're going to get married someday. And they have complete control.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Absolutely. Yeah, that that was my experience a lot of
times when we would when we would run out and
have these conversations with money mules, is that they they
they found it unbelievable that we were that they had
been engaged in crime, that they were even being victimized.
And you're right that our prosecutor are very very hesitant
(30:02):
to charge these people because they are victims and they've
really gotten nothing out of it. I'm aware of a
handful of instances in which money mules were prosecuted because
they had been warned multiple times.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Now, going back to the pig butchering, where someone entices
someone to invest in cryptocurrency and they end up losing
all this money, how is the money actually transferred from
the victim to the scammer?
Speaker 4 (30:36):
How is that typically done?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Typically in the pig butchering scam, it's done using cryptocurrency.
So the victim will be told to go to a
legitimate cryptocurrency exchange, convert their cash to crypto, and then
from that exchange, the victim sends their crypto to a
wallet controlled by the criminal. In many cases, eventually the
(31:04):
criminal convinces the victim to just let the criminal take
over their crypto account and they can just transfer the
money on their own. So but yeah, that's typically how
it's gone. Are you aware of other other ways that
that it typically happens?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And with uh, you know, all the crypto all the
pig butchering I've seen has involved people pulling cash out
of their bank accounts. They're given a QR code and
they're told specifically where to go. They go to a
cryptocurrency at M they scan the QR code and they
(31:42):
just start feeding in the cash. They think it's their
money because like you said, they they're they're they're provided
fake returns. Sometimes it's a portal. It's actually it looks
really fancy, like you have might have with your financial company,
your financial advisor provides you. You think you're making money,
(32:03):
and then I always hear part of the scam is
they'll refund the money or part of the money to
show that it's liquid. And that's part of the confidence
game that you talk about confident schemes. And then they
go in for the kill. And that's why it's called
pig butchering because it's it's a it's a financial slaughter.
They fatten up the pig. The pig is the victim
(32:24):
and then they go in for the kill, and you know,
it's it's heartbreaking because like the romance scams that we
saw five or ten years ago, you could only lose
so much money. Now with these very sophisticated pig butchering
schemes operated by criminal gangs and enterprises, they really they
can take a million dollars from someone and it's it's heartbreaking.
(32:48):
You know, what is it like as an FBI agent
interviewing the victim of a scam?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
How is that when dealing with that?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
It's in most cases, when we're talking about these sorts
of scams, confidence scams in particular, it's heartbreaking because these
people have been so financially devastated in many cases, yet
they don't understand and don't want to believe. Let me
put that differently, not don't want to believe, are unable
(33:22):
to believe that they have been victimized because they still
believe that the money is going to be coming back
to them that they have not been victimized. So it's
it's it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Martin. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Now, what I was going to say was the ability
for these criminal gangs to commit. These online scams that
we're talking about is really been a well, well devastating
to a heck of a lot more people than financial scams,
(34:01):
which are all these are at their core used to be.
Because if you think about like the Bernie made Off
Ponzi scheme, he was convincing investors to put their money
into his hedge fund, and he was doing exactly what
these pig butcher and scamsters do. He was showing people
fake statements which showed that they were making all kinds
(34:23):
of money, and every once in a while he'd let
them have a little piece. And that's exactly what the
pig butcher and scammers do. But in the case of
the pig butcher in folks, they're not. Their investor pool
isn't limited to just an elite group of people who
can hear about it through word of mouth. Their potential
(34:45):
group of investors is worldwide. It's whomever they can reach
on the internet, which is everyone. It's I think the
latest status was there's five billion people in the world
who are online, and how many of those five billion
pieceeople are aware that these scammers are out there and
don't know any better? Just don't know that there are
(35:07):
criminals out there looking to constantly looking to victimize people.
I think we need to. Folks need to change their
mindset about the Internet. When they are online, it's a
bad neighborhood and they need to think of it as such,
just like if they were walking in a bad neighborhood,
you know, in any downtown in the United States or
wherever they might be. Be cautious, be aware of where
(35:29):
you're going, Be aware that there are people looking to
take advantage of you.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Wow, I love that analogy that may appear in a
future presentation of mine. I like that the bad neighborhood analogy.
So one of the reasons, the main reason why Joyce
started Rose was she had a loved one get roped
into a romance scam and she would not believe that
(35:58):
she was being scammed, just like the stories you told here.
You know, what is your recommendation if you have a
family member or friend who you suspect might be being
caught up in one of these confident schemes romance scam,
pig butchering, or some sort of other investment scheme, what
(36:21):
do you recommend?
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Well, yeah, I recommend that, and I fall into this
category that we need to be in contact with our
loved ones who are who are elderly, right because most
of these scams, the stats show that a majority of
(36:51):
the victims of these scams are in the age group
that is over sixty, so that would include my parents.
So I think folks who are aware of these scams.
Hopefully the people who were reaching via this show today
are in closer contact with their loved ones who fall
(37:11):
into that age category and they make them aware that
they're aware of their online activity, that they educate them
about their online activity. I try to do my best
with my parents and let them know what's happening online.
They grew up. They just grew up in an era
where the Internet didn't exist when they were coming up.
It's brand new. They're very trusting of the emails and
the text messages they receive. But if folks do become
(37:35):
aware that their loved ones are being victimized, they need
to have heart to heart conversations and let them know
exactly what's happening. In one case, about six months ago,
this is right before I left the FBI to retire,
a loved one actually contacted us and let us know
that a close friend of theirs had been was being
(37:59):
victimized by a romance scam, but that they would not
believe their friend. So we actually another eight special agent
and I went out and visited the victim and let
him know, Hey, we learned that you might have been
the victim of a scam. You need to know that
this is in fact a scam. Now. I don't know
(38:20):
what happened when we left the house, but we did
our best to let him know. So the FBI has
and will take steps to let people know that they're
being victimized if they won't believe it otherwise from loved ones.
That's the whole idea. The FBI and law enforcement want
(38:44):
to prevent these crimes from happening before they even occur
because of the tremendous challenges that come along with investigating them,
in bringing the bad guys to justice and getting money
back to the victims.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Does the FBI have any statistics on what percentage of
these lost funds are recovered and what percentage of scammers
get prosecuted? Is that available anywhere online?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
That? I don't know, Brian. What I do know is
that if so, the one stat that I can refer
to that's that's a positive is that the FBI has
something called the Financial Fraud Kill Chain. So if someone
realizes that they've been scammed and can report it to
the FBI within the first forty eight to seventy two hours,
(39:38):
whether the money has been wired domestically or overseas. We've
had the FBI had something like a sixty percent success
rate in getting in freezing the money and getting it
back to its victims if they notified the FBI within
that first forty eight to seventy two hours.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
So the key is to be very prompt, Martin.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
I missed that.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
What was the name of that program.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
The Financial Fraud kill.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Chain, Financial fraud kill Chains, so I learned today.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So it's it's there's a pretty good description of it
in the latest IC three annual report. There's a blurb.
It's a relatively short and easy blurb to read. But
what it is is it's just a confederation of financial
institutions Finns and the FBI and some other federal partners
(40:35):
such that the right people are contacted, the right institutions
are contacted when the FBI is notified to implement the
financial fraud kill.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Chain, right all right, I want to give you a chance.
Any final thoughts, anything you want to talk about that
I didn't ask you about anything, scams, scam prevention stories,
what we want to share right now.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I think all I'd like to do is justly reiterate
the point I was making before, which is that people
need to be very cautious, aware and alert when they're online,
that these that there are criminals lurking online, organized criminal
(41:23):
gangs working in office buildings with structures, They have CEOs coos,
they have people who know how to speak English to
draft the phishing emails, the smission texts. These people are
out there and please be aware of it. Artificial intelligence,
we hear a lot about it nowadays. But what I'd
(41:43):
like to highlight about artificial intelligence is it has really
democratized criminals ability to victimize people. In that number one
phishing email used to be in, you know, five, ten
years ago, used to be pretty easy to recognize because
(42:06):
the people who wrote them were obviously not not were
non native English speakers, So you could pick out programmar
poor punctuation, misspellings, that sort of thing. Anymore, With AI,
that doesn't happen. AI could draft these fishent emails for people.
AI also has given people who don't necessarily know how
(42:29):
to code the ability to write code in malware to
infect people's computers. So it's really been a game changer
for criminals. So it's all the more reason why people
need to be aware that when they're online, they need
to be very alert and cautious of the emails the
(42:51):
context they receive. The good news with all of this
is that usually a majority of online crimes, for a
majority of online crimes, the victims must do something proactive.
They've got to click on a link in an email
or a text message. They've got to actually go down
to the bank and send They must do something, They
(43:13):
must do something proactive. This stuff doesn't usually just happen
to people. That does happen in some cases. Put a
majority of online crimes, they are preventable by us who
are online just taking a pause thinking about what's happening.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Awesome, great advice, Martin. Before we go, I just want
to remind everybody to go to our website, Roseadvocacy dot org.
Please sign up for our mailing list. You'll get an
email once a month, and then we also have tips
that come out on Tuesday this is free. I hope
you love it.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Sign up.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
All we need is your first and last name and
your email address. If you'll like, get shared it with
your family and friends. If you don't like it, you
can unsubscribe. We won't be offended. Please follow us on Facebook,
follow us on LinkedIn. Watch this podcast. Like I said
next week wrote, I mean, Joyce should be back, and
(44:14):
I'm pretty sure she's gonna want to have Martin on
again in the future because we only touch, you know,
the surface of all the different scams out there, and
it's great to have the perspective of someone who is
very recently in federal law enforcement investigating these types of
crimes and think about sponsoring an event. We go out
(44:36):
and do face to face presentations and we charge a
nominal non nominal fee, but we think we provide a
great service. We have some great handouts. It could be
me out there, it could be Joyce, it could be
Bill Page, it could be Martin. Somebody from the Amazing
Rose team will be out there to share all this,
all this good advice that we have. So thank you
(44:59):
for watching to today. Martin. I appreciate your time. Thank
you very much, and I hope to see you soon
next time. I'm up in Phoenix. Everybody out there today,
thank you for watching. Let's talk about scams. We'll see
you next Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. June in
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.
So you have the power to make scam protection your
healthy habit, and until then, feel free to reach out
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.
This program is designed to provide general information with regards
to the subject matters covered. This information is given with
the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station
are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial, legal, counseling,
professional service, or any advice.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You should seek the services.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.
The information contained in this podcast is intended for informational
purposes only and is not a substitute for individual professional
legal advice. The podcast information was carefully compiled from vetted
sources and references. However, Rose Resources outreach to safeguard the
(00:45):
elderly cannot guarantee that you will not fall victim to
a scam. Let's talk about scams. It's the must listen
show for anyone who wants to protect themselves and their
loved ones from scams. Every Tuesday at am Pacific time
on K four HD Radio, Joyce Petrowski, founder of Rose,
(01:06):
and her guests will provide valuable insights and practical tips
on how to recognize and protect yourself from scams. And
now here is your host, Joyce Petrowski.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Good morning everybody, and welcome to Let's talk about scams.
My name is Brian Watson. I'm a community outreach specialist
for Rose Resources Outreach to safeguard the elderly, and I'm
filling in for Joyce. It's been about four or five
weeks now, and the plan is to have Joyce back
next week. So those of you have been patiently waiting
(01:41):
for Joyce's return, the plan is for her to be
back next week. I've really enjoyed filling in for Joyce
and I appreciate her giving me the opportunity to host
this radio show. So today we have a guest. Today's
guest is Mark Helmer. He is a retired FBI agent
(02:04):
and he's the newest member of the Rose Advisory Committee. Martin,
are you there? We'll just have to wait a second.
Here will Martin's pops up on the screen, Give it
(02:26):
a second here. Technology is great, but every now and
then we run into little little snot foos. We had
Martin at the top of the show.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Is here, I am hi, I'm here now?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
All right, awesome, we're seeing you can hear me.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Thanks for joining today. All right, let's start out. How
long did you work for the FBI.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Martin.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Ye yep, it's freezing up. We're gonna have to hold
on a second hair. Martin's feed has frozen.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
There you are. I'm back. I've I might need to
relocate to make this work better. Let me okay, let me,
let me see if I can find a better spot.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
All right, We'll just hold on a second hair. Martin
will be right back. I had the pleasure of meeting
with Martin about a month ago up in Phoenix.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
And its very interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Our career paths crossed a lot of the same types
of cases, and we know a lot of the same people,
but we'd actually never met each other because I was
based with the I R S and Tucson and Martin
was based with the FBI up in Phoenix, and so
(04:02):
we know a lot of people in commons. So it
was fun going out to lunch and just sharing experiences.
All right, how does that sound?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I can hear you. Good, now, I can hear well.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Let's start from the top, Martin. How long did you
work for the FBI.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I was in the FBI for twenty three years. I
entered the FBI in November twenty twenty two and just
retired this last May.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
And then you're also a Certified Public accountant. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, that's right. I worked as a CPA, worked in
practiced as a CPA for five years before joining the FBI,
and I've maintained my license through the years.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
And you were a special agent with the FBI, is
that correct?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
That is correct, yes.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
And as a special agent, what types of cases did
you investigate?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Well? I worked a broad range of cases during during
the course of my twenty fi three years in the FBI.
I started out, because I did enter the FBI right
after nine to eleven, I started out working terrorism cases.
Every new agent seemed to be assigned to work terrorism matters,
and that's what I did, especially in the Washington, d C.
(05:14):
Field Office where I was first assigned. But then I
transferred to Phoenix. After doing a stint at FBI headquarters,
I transferred to Phoenix in twenty eleven and I worked
cyber crimes for about eight years. I headed up the
Arizona Cybercrime Task Force out of the FBI's Phoenix Field Office,
(05:35):
which is a great experience. And then I transferred over
to work why collar crime beginning in about twenty nineteen,
and during that period was during that period that I
mostly became familiar with a lot of the online scams
that I think we're going to talk about today. We
touched on a few of them. We investigated several of
(05:56):
those types of online scams when I was doing cybercrimes,
really a majority of them that I encountered and then
I investigated as a special agent. We're done in the
last seven or so years of my career working white
collar crime.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, and that's why it's great that we have you
on the advisory committee for ROSE. Get connected with Rose.
How did that work out?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well? I provided a presentation to the FBI Citizens Academy
about five or so years back. I spoke to the group. Now,
the FBI Citizens Academy is a collection of people who
go through in every FBI field office, all the fbis
(06:43):
field offices, we host a citizens Academy and it's usually
a group of thirty to fifty people who just want
to get to know more about the FBI. So what
we do is we host that group for a series
of I think about eight classes over a span of
eight weeks, and we just provide them education about the
(07:03):
different violations, different programs in the FBI works. What we do,
we take them up to the shooting range one day.
So anyway, five years ago or so, I was asked
to provide a presentation to the Citizens Academy class going
through at the time on white collar crime, and I
did so, and afterwards, another advisory board member approached me
(07:30):
and Bill celler day and he asked if I'd be
willing to talk to Joyce about what I was doing
and perhaps partner with Rose to educate the elderly community.
And then I've been associated with Rose ever since.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Oh, that's awesome. So I've got to know Bill as well.
He's spoken in my class at U of A. I
know Bill and Joyce have known each other for a
long time. I'd like to say that Joyce's superpower is
finding people with amazing talent and having them join our team,
because we have some superstars that volunteer with Rose. All Right,
(08:08):
what is the Internet Crime Complaint Center? People talk about it,
but I'd love to hear what it is from an
FBI former FBI agent's point of view.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That Crime Complaint Center is actually physically located in West Virginia.
But there's a bunch of people who work there whose
sole job is to take reports of crime, and there
are two ways to report crime with you.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So a lot of times when I was a special
agent with the I R S and when I've been
working for ROSE for the last two years, we tell
people anybody that's lost money on the Internet to file
a report with the i C three dot g o V.
So it's the Internet Crime Complaint Center IC three dot
(09:04):
g o V. And my understanding of it, it is
a clearing house for anything Internet related crime. And because
we tell people file a report at IC three dot
gov and at Federal Trade Commission dot gov, and then
I know that this IC the IC three provides the
(09:26):
information for the FBI's Elder Fraud Report and it ROSE.
We are big fans of the FBI's Elder Fraud Report
because it it verifies what our mission is and it rose.
Our mission is to prevent older adults from getting scammed.
So every year when I do presentations, I always refer
(09:51):
to the FBI's Elder Fraud Report, which is taken by
IC three dot up. Martin, you froze up there? Can
you hear me now?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I can hear you now? Yes, apology?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
You were talking about the Internet Crime Complaint Center it's
based in West Virginia. It's like a clearinghouse for everything
Internet related crime.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
We want people to report.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
How do you how do you report if you've been
victimized by an Internet related crime?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
How do you do that? How do you report it?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well? Okay, so there's to report to the FBI. There
are three ways to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, which
is either online at IC three dot gov. That's the
number three IC three dot gov, or by calling one
eight hundred call FBI. Both of those means we'll get
(10:43):
we'll connect you to the Internet Crime Complaint Center to
report a crime. The third option is to just either
call or stop by the local FBI field office and
report crime there and ask to see the duty agent.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
So what are the most common scams they get reported
to IC three.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So so every year, the Internet Crime Complaint Center releases
an annual report which highlights details the top crimes reported
every year. Unfortunately, since the Internet Crime Complaint Center has
been releasing the report, and that's ben since two thousand,
crime has only been reported crimes anyway, I have only
(11:21):
been on the uptick. But this year, so the twenty
twenty four report was released in May. The number one
reported crime online crime to the Internet Crime Complaint Center
was investment fraud, and that's in large part due to
a really trending prevalent scam right now called pig butcher
(11:43):
Second most reported was something called we refer to as
business email compromise. The third was romance or confidence scams,
tech support fraud, and government impersonation scams.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Absolutely, so you mentioned pig butchering, and we've covered that
a lot here at ROSE. I actually learned about pig
butchering about three years ago or two and a half
years ago from the Rose website when I was still
a federal agent, and I said, what in the world
is that? And Joyce had interviewed a psychologist who talked
about pig butchering, and I'm like, what are these people
(12:21):
talking about? And as soon as I watched the video,
it all made sense to me, and I've met victims
of it. Please explain what pig butchering is to our
listeners and viewers out there.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Sure. First, I think it's important to explain that the
people who the criminals who do the pig butcher and
scam are organized. They work in many cases in big
office buildings, usually located overseas, many of them in Southeast Asia.
But they're organized and they know exactly what they're doing.
(12:55):
It's a very deliberate attack that they perpetrate on people.
And usually the way it begins is through a random
text message or contact on some social media site by
from someone who you don't know, and they pretend to
be trying to reach out to someone else, very innocently,
(13:18):
so and you tell them, in fact that I had
one contacting me this weekend, and I knew exactly what
it was. High. It said, High, Linda, this is this
is Raina. I'm coming to the Northern Virginia. I have
a Northern Virginia number for my time when I was
living in the DC area. I'm coming to Northern Virginia.
Will you be around? And if I actually played along
(13:41):
and I responded I said, no, I don't live there anymore.
But what can I help you with? And oh, I'm sorry,
I thought this was Linda. That's the way it starts.
And then they keep they maintain a relationship. And that's
what Raina was trying to do with me. She was
trying to maintain an email relationship or a text message
relationship with me.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
All Right, we're frozen up again. Oh no, I know
where he's going with this, because these these professionals out there. Yeah, yeah, Martin,
you need to be in the same room as as
the router, wherever that is. I'll I'm gonna let him
(14:27):
know that via text here because he's getting we're losing
the internet connection.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
You're back, I'm back, Paul.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
So our engineer is saying, you need to be in
the same room as the router. If possible, that would
that would be beneficial so we don't lose contact. So
(14:57):
I'm just gonna have to I'm gonna have to tell
Martin's story. So, like he's saying, a lot of these
pig butchering contacts are random scams where someone gets a
text message and they're nice and they respond like, no,
you've got the wrong number. Oh I thought you were Linda.
Oh okam, sorry how do And they'll just if someone's nice,
(15:23):
they'll get engaged in a text message chain with with
with someone. But it's kind of crazy. Martin's a retired
FBI special agent and he was being targeted for pig
butchering over the weekend. Like he said, he was playing
along a little bit just to see what they would do.
But they're going to reach out to every single one
(15:45):
of us. If you haven't gotten one of these random
text messages where someone just is trying to start a
conversation with you via text, it's.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
You're going to get it.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And then what eventually they do is they will bring
up the idea the concept of investing in cryptocurrency. They
all make a mention that, oh, I've made a ton
of money via bitcoin. It's done very well for me.
I can retire now, I travel the world. And you know,
(16:19):
we all.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Want to.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
We all want to make money, we all want to
be successful, and there's a little bit of greed in
every one of us. And that's why this pig butchering
scam works. Its people fall for it. All right, Martin,
are you close to the router now?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yes, I'm closer now, Okay, going all the way into
my daughter's room. I think I'm good now.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Okay, So now we've got to see three rooms here
of your house. So far you have a beautiful place.
So I was just explaining you were talking about pig butchering.
You start a little innocuous or innocent conversation online with
someone and eventually they they suggest the idea of investing
(17:05):
in cryptocurrency is that how it works.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
That's that is the way it works. They always introduce
after they've established a relationship and confidence of the person
who they're targeting, they will ask if that person might
be interested in investing in some sort of a crypto investment,
and they'll always let them know that hey, I've already
(17:28):
made a bunch of money doing this, and they'll usually
present totally fake statements which show that they've made a
bunch of profits, but it's all fake. And then unfortunately,
many victims trust what this weather person is telling them,
and they it's a devastating crime to many people who
(17:51):
have sent their life savings overseas to these people, trusting
that their investments are going toward, you know, crypto investment
and making money. But it all ends the same. They
are unable to pull out any of the supposed profits,
and then eventually the criminal on the other side just
stops communicating with the person who they victimized.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Is there any way of getting that money back?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
There is, but it's very difficult. Because most of these
scams originate overseas. It's hard for US authorities to repatriate
the money. To find the money first of all, and
then get it back to the United States. The FBI
and no US either federal law enforcement agency or local
(18:42):
law enforcement agency, has jurisdiction to operate outside of the
US borders. So we must rely on relationships and treaties
with foreign governments where these crimes have occurred for law enforcement,
and in many cases the cooperation just isn't there. If
(19:03):
the cooperation is there, it's still difficult because these guys
committing the criminals committing these crimes are good. They take
steps to hide themselves, to anonymize themselves online, to make
it difficult for law enforcement to find them. So there
are all sorts of hurdles to finding the stolen money
(19:23):
and getting it back to the United States. Now, we
have had some success, the US government has had some
success through the years in successfully getting money back to victims,
but those unfortunately, those cases are rare because of the
difficulties I just described.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Well, And that's why I mentioned at the beginning of
the show. Our mission at Rose is to prevent people
from losing money in the first place. And you know,
it's a tough challenge for us, but we're up for
the challenge, and that's what we're trying to do. I mean,
just the fact that we're talking about this today will
prevent someone from falling for that text message that comes
(20:04):
in and they can identify it. So we know it's
difficult to get the money back. But why is it
still important to report losses?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Well, because I'll talk specifically about reporting losses to the FBI.
The FBI has a team of analysts who can connect
the dots, so who can put pieces of the puzzle together,
just with different reports of crime from different people. So
(20:36):
while let's say someone in the Phoenix area might have
only lost a small amount of money, say it's I
don't want to say it's one hundred dollars. If someone
lost to a pig Buttons game, I would still encourage
someone to report that to the FBI because there might
be an email address, there might be some phone number,
some piece of information included in that report that can
(20:59):
help an FBI agent working the overall gang of which
that person, that criminal might be a part, solve the crime,
find where they are. Maybe that person who stole one
hundred dollars from the victim here in Phoenix, maybe he
or she failed to anonymize himself when he went online
(21:21):
one day, and we can find that IP address and
trace it back to who did this thing. So we
really encourage folks to report the crime.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
And then I get this question all the time. Okay,
I report to the federal you know, the federal government.
Should I also file a police report in the city
or town that I live in.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
That's a really good question, and I would recommend that, yes,
folks report being victimized to both the local law enforcement
agency and to the FBI and the because those two
agencies will talk with one another, they'll figure and some
(22:04):
there are sometimes when both agencies will we'll begin investigating
a case, but there's usually some deconfliction along the way
and one will take the lead. But in many cases,
the FBI, because of limited resources at both the field
office level, the investigator level, and at the US Attorney's
(22:24):
office level, the ability to prosecute the crimes there are
limited resources. Local law enforcement agencies, although they also have
limited resources, might take smaller cases. So I'd really encourage
folks to report to both agencies.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
Is there any reason to report an unsuccessful scam attempt
where someone thinks they were the attempted victim of pig butchering,
or if someone got a phishing email or a smishing text,
or some sort of you know, phone called grandparents scam,
jury scam. Is there any reason for people to report that?
(23:05):
Or should people only report if they've actually physically lost money?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
No, I would encourage folks to report even small things. Now,
smishing emails or smishing attempts. Phishing emails are very prevalent.
They're widespread, So I think the FBI local law enforcement
(23:32):
agencies would be deluged with a barrage of reports if
everyone reported every attempt that was made against them. So
with discretion, I would encourage folks. Maybe they respond to
a text, during an email, maybe they begin in interaction,
but they're not necessarily victimized. Those sorts of things. I
(23:53):
would encourage folks to report because, again, it enables analysts
and investigators to connect dots.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
So we mentioned that pig butchering a lot of times
starts with like these random text messages that are meant
just to engage someone in a texting conversation. A lot
of pig butchering also starts via romance scams. You know,
where someone's online and someone reaches out to them on Facebook,
(24:26):
Messenger or Words with Friends or a dating site, and
they start this online relationship. You had when we went
out for lunch. You had talked about meeting a victim
of a romance scam and the person didn't think they
were being victimized. Share what you learned interacting with this victim,
(24:47):
like the psychology behind it. You know how deep they
were into this scheme where they this person didn't believe you,
and you were an FBI agent with a badge, you know,
in credentials.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Right. So, both pig butchering and romance scams are a
type of fraud that we refer to as confidence frauds
confident scams because the person on the other side who's
doing the victimizing establishes the confidence of the victim so
much so that I encountered a few times conversations or
(25:27):
countered victims of these types of crimes who, even though
I was there presented my FBI credentials and I was
telling them that they were being scammed, they would not
believe me. They were so entrenched in the story, they
so believed the story and trusted that the other person
was telling them the truth that they didn't believe me,
(25:48):
standing right there in their living room telling them that
they had been scammed. And the instance that you reference
that we discussed over lunch, this woman had lost over
five hundred thousand dollars. She'd said, over five hundred thousand
dollars to this person who she had fallen in love
(26:08):
with online. She'd never met him in person, but he
told her, as it goes with all romance scams, he
told her a fantastical story that he had been in
the He was an American, but he'd been in the
French Foreign Legion and he was stuck overseas in Africa,
and he needed money. First. The first thing he needed
(26:29):
money for was to pay a hospital bill, otherwise they
weren't going to discharge him from the hospital. And then
he needed taxes to pay the government so that he
could get out of the country. Then he needed to
pay a fee to get his passport in order, and
then he needed money for the plane ticket, and then
it goes on and on and on, and she absolutely
believed what he was telling her as far fetched as
(26:51):
it got along the way, so much so that she said,
I have a call scheduled with him this afternoon. He
is supposed to be making his plane flight to come
and see me. Would you like to talk to him?
I said, no, you need to stop communicating with this person.
This is a waste, This is this is a scam
(27:13):
you were He is only taking advantage of you for
your money. But she would not believe me. Even when
I left that day, she did not believe what I
told her.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Could you go and reach out to a family member
or friend of hers to try to stop her? Or
was that not possible in that case?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yes? We, in fact we did after the fact. Now
it took us a little bit to track down a
daughter who she had in the area. We did track
down her daughter and let her know what was happening.
Now I don't know what happened from there. But unfortunately,
in many of these cases, especially in romance scams, after
(27:55):
victims have been bled dry of their money, the criminals
start using their victims to unwittingly launder money for them.
So when they sense that a victim has norm more
money to send, they will ask them to be a
pass through through their bank accounts, usually of money from
(28:18):
other romance scam victims to them. So and unfortunately these
people unwittingly start engaging in money laundering, a crime when
these things happen, and that's what the stage at which
this woman was when I spoke to her, and that's
what I passed along to her daughter. I let her know, listen,
your mother's now unwittingly engaging in a crime. We should
(28:41):
do something about this. Well.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
And then that's what's referred to as a money mule.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yes, that's right. We refer to those times focus money mules.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
And a lot of times these money mules are committing crimes,
but they're also victims at the same time, and so
I know a lot of times federal government doesn't want
to prosecute them because they're not really getting much out
of it. They might get a little cut or a
small kickback or something, but they're being dominated and controlled
(29:15):
by the criminal. I know, when we were in southern Arizona,
our agencies would go out and talk to these money
mules and say, cut it out, you're being the victim,
and you know a lot of times they would continue that, no,
this is my boyfriend. I'm just helping them out. You know,
we're going to get married someday. And they have complete control.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Absolutely. Yeah, that that was my experience a lot of
times when we would when we would run out and
have these conversations with money mules, is that they they
they found it unbelievable that we were that they had
been engaged in crime, that they were even being victimized.
And you're right that our prosecutor are very very hesitant
(30:02):
to charge these people because they are victims and they've
really gotten nothing out of it. I'm aware of a
handful of instances in which money mules were prosecuted because
they had been warned multiple times.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Now, going back to the pig butchering, where someone entices
someone to invest in cryptocurrency and they end up losing
all this money, how is the money actually transferred from
the victim to the scammer?
Speaker 4 (30:36):
How is that typically done?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Typically in the pig butchering scam, it's done using cryptocurrency.
So the victim will be told to go to a
legitimate cryptocurrency exchange, convert their cash to crypto, and then
from that exchange, the victim sends their crypto to a
wallet controlled by the criminal. In many cases, eventually the
(31:04):
criminal convinces the victim to just let the criminal take
over their crypto account and they can just transfer the
money on their own. So but yeah, that's typically how
it's gone. Are you aware of other other ways that
that it typically happens?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And with uh, you know, all the crypto all the
pig butchering I've seen has involved people pulling cash out
of their bank accounts. They're given a QR code and
they're told specifically where to go. They go to a
cryptocurrency at M they scan the QR code and they
(31:42):
just start feeding in the cash. They think it's their
money because like you said, they they're they're they're provided
fake returns. Sometimes it's a portal. It's actually it looks
really fancy, like you have might have with your financial company,
your financial advisor provides you. You think you're making money,
(32:03):
and then I always hear part of the scam is
they'll refund the money or part of the money to
show that it's liquid. And that's part of the confidence
game that you talk about confident schemes. And then they
go in for the kill. And that's why it's called
pig butchering because it's it's a it's a financial slaughter.
They fatten up the pig. The pig is the victim
(32:24):
and then they go in for the kill, and you know,
it's it's heartbreaking because like the romance scams that we
saw five or ten years ago, you could only lose
so much money. Now with these very sophisticated pig butchering
schemes operated by criminal gangs and enterprises, they really they
can take a million dollars from someone and it's it's heartbreaking.
(32:48):
You know, what is it like as an FBI agent
interviewing the victim of a scam?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
How is that when dealing with that?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
It's in most cases, when we're talking about these sorts
of scams, confidence scams in particular, it's heartbreaking because these
people have been so financially devastated in many cases, yet
they don't understand and don't want to believe. Let me
put that differently, not don't want to believe, are unable
(33:22):
to believe that they have been victimized because they still
believe that the money is going to be coming back
to them that they have not been victimized. So it's
it's it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Martin. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Now, what I was going to say was the ability
for these criminal gangs to commit. These online scams that
we're talking about is really been a well, well devastating
to a heck of a lot more people than financial scams,
(34:01):
which are all these are at their core used to be.
Because if you think about like the Bernie made Off
Ponzi scheme, he was convincing investors to put their money
into his hedge fund, and he was doing exactly what
these pig butcher and scamsters do. He was showing people
fake statements which showed that they were making all kinds
(34:23):
of money, and every once in a while he'd let
them have a little piece. And that's exactly what the
pig butcher and scammers do. But in the case of
the pig butcher in folks, they're not. Their investor pool
isn't limited to just an elite group of people who
can hear about it through word of mouth. Their potential
(34:45):
group of investors is worldwide. It's whomever they can reach
on the internet, which is everyone. It's I think the
latest status was there's five billion people in the world
who are online, and how many of those five billion
pieceeople are aware that these scammers are out there and
don't know any better? Just don't know that there are
(35:07):
criminals out there looking to constantly looking to victimize people.
I think we need to. Folks need to change their
mindset about the Internet. When they are online, it's a
bad neighborhood and they need to think of it as such,
just like if they were walking in a bad neighborhood,
you know, in any downtown in the United States or
wherever they might be. Be cautious, be aware of where
(35:29):
you're going, Be aware that there are people looking to
take advantage of you.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Wow, I love that analogy that may appear in a
future presentation of mine. I like that the bad neighborhood analogy.
So one of the reasons, the main reason why Joyce
started Rose was she had a loved one get roped
into a romance scam and she would not believe that
(35:58):
she was being scammed, just like the stories you told here.
You know, what is your recommendation if you have a
family member or friend who you suspect might be being
caught up in one of these confident schemes romance scam,
pig butchering, or some sort of other investment scheme, what
(36:21):
do you recommend?
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Well, yeah, I recommend that, and I fall into this
category that we need to be in contact with our
loved ones who are who are elderly, right because most
of these scams, the stats show that a majority of
(36:51):
the victims of these scams are in the age group
that is over sixty, so that would include my parents.
So I think folks who are aware of these scams.
Hopefully the people who were reaching via this show today
are in closer contact with their loved ones who fall
(37:11):
into that age category and they make them aware that
they're aware of their online activity, that they educate them
about their online activity. I try to do my best
with my parents and let them know what's happening online.
They grew up. They just grew up in an era
where the Internet didn't exist when they were coming up.
It's brand new. They're very trusting of the emails and
the text messages they receive. But if folks do become
(37:35):
aware that their loved ones are being victimized, they need
to have heart to heart conversations and let them know
exactly what's happening. In one case, about six months ago,
this is right before I left the FBI to retire,
a loved one actually contacted us and let us know
that a close friend of theirs had been was being
(37:59):
victimized by a romance scam, but that they would not
believe their friend. So we actually another eight special agent
and I went out and visited the victim and let
him know, Hey, we learned that you might have been
the victim of a scam. You need to know that
this is in fact a scam. Now. I don't know
(38:20):
what happened when we left the house, but we did
our best to let him know. So the FBI has
and will take steps to let people know that they're
being victimized if they won't believe it otherwise from loved ones.
That's the whole idea. The FBI and law enforcement want
(38:44):
to prevent these crimes from happening before they even occur
because of the tremendous challenges that come along with investigating them,
in bringing the bad guys to justice and getting money
back to the victims.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Does the FBI have any statistics on what percentage of
these lost funds are recovered and what percentage of scammers
get prosecuted? Is that available anywhere online?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
That? I don't know, Brian. What I do know is
that if so, the one stat that I can refer
to that's that's a positive is that the FBI has
something called the Financial Fraud Kill Chain. So if someone
realizes that they've been scammed and can report it to
the FBI within the first forty eight to seventy two hours,
(39:38):
whether the money has been wired domestically or overseas. We've
had the FBI had something like a sixty percent success
rate in getting in freezing the money and getting it
back to its victims if they notified the FBI within
that first forty eight to seventy two hours.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
So the key is to be very prompt, Martin.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
I missed that.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
What was the name of that program.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
The Financial Fraud kill.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Chain, Financial fraud kill Chains, so I learned today.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
So it's it's there's a pretty good description of it
in the latest IC three annual report. There's a blurb.
It's a relatively short and easy blurb to read. But
what it is is it's just a confederation of financial
institutions Finns and the FBI and some other federal partners
(40:35):
such that the right people are contacted, the right institutions
are contacted when the FBI is notified to implement the
financial fraud kill.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Chain, right all right, I want to give you a chance.
Any final thoughts, anything you want to talk about that
I didn't ask you about anything, scams, scam prevention stories,
what we want to share right now.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
I think all I'd like to do is justly reiterate
the point I was making before, which is that people
need to be very cautious, aware and alert when they're online,
that these that there are criminals lurking online, organized criminal
(41:23):
gangs working in office buildings with structures, They have CEOs coos,
they have people who know how to speak English to
draft the phishing emails, the smission texts. These people are
out there and please be aware of it. Artificial intelligence,
we hear a lot about it nowadays. But what I'd
(41:43):
like to highlight about artificial intelligence is it has really
democratized criminals ability to victimize people. In that number one
phishing email used to be in, you know, five, ten
years ago, used to be pretty easy to recognize because
(42:06):
the people who wrote them were obviously not not were
non native English speakers, So you could pick out programmar
poor punctuation, misspellings, that sort of thing. Anymore, With AI,
that doesn't happen. AI could draft these fishent emails for people.
AI also has given people who don't necessarily know how
(42:29):
to code the ability to write code in malware to
infect people's computers. So it's really been a game changer
for criminals. So it's all the more reason why people
need to be aware that when they're online, they need
to be very alert and cautious of the emails the
(42:51):
context they receive. The good news with all of this
is that usually a majority of online crimes, for a
majority of online crimes, the victims must do something proactive.
They've got to click on a link in an email
or a text message. They've got to actually go down
to the bank and send They must do something, They
(43:13):
must do something proactive. This stuff doesn't usually just happen
to people. That does happen in some cases. Put a
majority of online crimes, they are preventable by us who
are online just taking a pause thinking about what's happening.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Awesome, great advice, Martin. Before we go, I just want
to remind everybody to go to our website, Roseadvocacy dot org.
Please sign up for our mailing list. You'll get an
email once a month, and then we also have tips
that come out on Tuesday this is free. I hope
you love it.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Sign up.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
All we need is your first and last name and
your email address. If you'll like, get shared it with
your family and friends. If you don't like it, you
can unsubscribe. We won't be offended. Please follow us on Facebook,
follow us on LinkedIn. Watch this podcast. Like I said
next week wrote, I mean, Joyce should be back, and
(44:14):
I'm pretty sure she's gonna want to have Martin on
again in the future because we only touch, you know,
the surface of all the different scams out there, and
it's great to have the perspective of someone who is
very recently in federal law enforcement investigating these types of
crimes and think about sponsoring an event. We go out
(44:36):
and do face to face presentations and we charge a
nominal non nominal fee, but we think we provide a
great service. We have some great handouts. It could be
me out there, it could be Joyce, it could be
Bill Page, it could be Martin. Somebody from the Amazing
Rose team will be out there to share all this,
all this good advice that we have. So thank you
(44:59):
for watching to today. Martin. I appreciate your time. Thank
you very much, and I hope to see you soon
next time. I'm up in Phoenix. Everybody out there today,
thank you for watching. Let's talk about scams. We'll see
you next Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Well that's all the knowledge for this episode. June in
every Tuesday at eight am Pacific time on KFOURHD Radio
at KFOURHD dot com as Joyce explores a variety of knowledge.
So you have the power to make scam protection your
healthy habit, and until then, feel free to reach out
to Joyce and let's talk about scams.
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