June 23, 2025 • 55 mins
June is Caribbean American Heritage Month, and this week, we are talking di tings with board-certified psychiatrist, clinical researcher, bestselling author, and proud TrinidadianAmerican, Dr. Judith Joseph.
Dr. Judith was born in Trinidad to a family that reflects the beautiful complexity of the Caribbean; with a mother of South Indian descent, and a father of Afro-Caribbean descent. That cultural richness is not only part of her heritage, it informs her work, her worldview, and the way she speaks to both science and culture. For example, she created an acronym "C.A.R.I.B." (which stands for Community, Attitude, Rituals, Intention, and Body), a familiar word in the diaspora, to remind the Caribbean diaspora that "mental health is ours, and it has always been."
Dr. Judith’s bestselling book, High Functioning: Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, shines a light on the often invisible weight carried by those who appear to have it all together. In this episode, she shares some of the signs of high-functioning depression, how it’s often misunderstood, her 5 V's Framework for Mental Health, how sleep is directly connected to life expectancy, and how we can begin the process of reclaiming joy not as a luxury, but as a lifeline.
Together, we explore how unspoken trauma is often normalized in Caribbean households, the importance of intentionally expressing your emotions, how culturally informed conversations about depression must move beyond silence and survival, and so much more!
This episode is an important one. One that will offer you guidance, knowledge, and of course make you laugh. So grab your tea, coffee, or a glass of wine, and let’s talk di tings!
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If you enjoyed the episode, leave us a 5 star rating, share this episode, and follow Let’s Talk Di Tings on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Listen to LTDT on: SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/6akOR9kAnsbANiszBDcVOL?si=aa70627937124c3e APPLE PODCASTS: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lets-talk-di-tings/id1662696625
Dr. Judith was born in Trinidad to a family that reflects the beautiful complexity of the Caribbean; with a mother of South Indian descent, and a father of Afro-Caribbean descent. That cultural richness is not only part of her heritage, it informs her work, her worldview, and the way she speaks to both science and culture. For example, she created an acronym "C.A.R.I.B." (which stands for Community, Attitude, Rituals, Intention, and Body), a familiar word in the diaspora, to remind the Caribbean diaspora that "mental health is ours, and it has always been."
Dr. Judith’s bestselling book, High Functioning: Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, shines a light on the often invisible weight carried by those who appear to have it all together. In this episode, she shares some of the signs of high-functioning depression, how it’s often misunderstood, her 5 V's Framework for Mental Health, how sleep is directly connected to life expectancy, and how we can begin the process of reclaiming joy not as a luxury, but as a lifeline.
Together, we explore how unspoken trauma is often normalized in Caribbean households, the importance of intentionally expressing your emotions, how culturally informed conversations about depression must move beyond silence and survival, and so much more!
This episode is an important one. One that will offer you guidance, knowledge, and of course make you laugh. So grab your tea, coffee, or a glass of wine, and let’s talk di tings!
.
.
.
If you enjoyed the episode, leave us a 5 star rating, share this episode, and follow Let’s Talk Di Tings on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Listen to LTDT on: SPOTIFY: https://open.spotify.com/show/6akOR9kAnsbANiszBDcVOL?si=aa70627937124c3e APPLE PODCASTS: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lets-talk-di-tings/id1662696625
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What does it mean to be high achieving, highly capable
and quietly unraveling inside? It's a question that doctor Judith
Joseph has not only asked in her clinical practice and research,
it's one that she's had to ask herself. As a
Trinidadian American born to a mother of South Indian descent
(00:24):
and a father of Afro Caribbean descent, Doctor Judith brings
to the conversation a rare kind of fluency, one that
spans cultures, identities, and disciplines. She is a BORED certified psychiatrist,
a clinical assistant professor at NYU, a best selling author,
(00:45):
and a trusted voice in national media. But what makes
her work different is how deeply it speaks to those
who have learned to mask emotional pain with public success.
In her best way selling book High Functioning, Overcome Your
Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, she gives language to
(01:07):
the experience of suffering in silence and offers a road
map out of it. As we celebrate Caribbean American Heritage Month,
I feel that it's extremely important to celebrate not just
what doctor Judith has accomplished, but how she has accomplished
it with purpose, compassion, and an unwavering commitment to the
(01:31):
communities she represents and serves. By doing what she was
born to do, she has helped so many other persons
feel seen, heard, and understood. One could say her joy
has become a catalyst for hours. In this episode, we
explore how trauma is often normalized in Caribbean households, how
(01:56):
high functioning depression is too frequently misread as resilient, and
why reclaiming joy must be a part of our healing,
not the reward. Afterward, we talk about the cultural weight
of being the strong one, the goal oriented person, the
(02:16):
high achiever, the clinical reality of how sleep affects life expectancy,
and the small things that keep doctor Judith grounded, including
her favorite triny food, and her deep belief that mental
wellness is not just personal work, but community care, because
(02:36):
how you feel about yourself and the joy that you
feel about the life you're living, spills on to everyone
around you. Doctor Judith reminds us that healing doesn't have
to be loud, but it does have to be honest,
and even in the most accomplished rooms, someone is still
(02:57):
waiting for permission to exhale. If you're listening to the
podcast on Apple Podcast. Please remember to rate and leave
a comment below. Also, don't forget to follow us on
Instagram at Let's Talk the Tings. Now, grab your tea, coffee,
(03:17):
or a glass of wine and Let's Talk the Tings.
Hello everyone, Welcome back to Let's Talk to Things, where
we discuss personal growth, travel, music, beauty and wellness while
encouraging you to live fearlessly and fabulously. I'm your host,
Ash and this week we are Talking to Things with
(03:41):
doctor Judith Joseph, a board certified psychiatrist, Chair of Women
of the Women in Medicine Initiative at Columbia University NYU,
clinical Assistant professor, a pioneering researcher, a social media creator,
an educator with over a million followers, and the author
(04:02):
of the national best selling book High Functioning Overcome your
Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy. So hi, doctor Jdith,
how are you welcome? Thank you for having me, Thank
you for being here. I'm so happy to have you
here and so excited for this much needed conversation. So so,
(04:23):
as a first time guest, I should say, and for
persons listening for the first time. We begin each episode
with our listener's favorite segment, and it's called dat no
sound safe. So it's basically an icebreaker where I read
messages or social media posts that listeners sent in, and
if you think it sounds crazy or a little bit concerning,
(04:47):
you'd say that no sounds safe and explain why. And
if you agree, you say you agree and explain why
sounds good?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, all right, all right.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So the first person said, you're looking for love and
consistency from inconsistent people who don't know love, and it's
stealing your hope.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
That sound safe?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
No, not at all, not at all. I think that
a lot of times we can just have this hope
that somebody will change or will meet us where we are.
But I think you know that Maya Angelo quote comes
to mind. When someone shows you who they are, you
have to believe their you know, yes, that last part
(05:29):
I always forget. That's true. That last part is key
the first time. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, okay. The next person said,
dear young adults, you can leave if you don't like
your doctor, walk out in the middle of your apartment,
(05:50):
leave the party and the date. Don't wait until the
polite time to leave or endure because you think you'll
make a scene, you can go.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
That that that's appropriate. Yeah, if you feel unsafe in
any situation, you should leave. Yes, Fortunately, not all doctors
are kind. Some doctors are not kind, Some doctors are
not doing the right thing. I think the majority of
doctors are in it for the right reasons, but some doctors, unfortunately,
(06:22):
are not. They're bad apples everywhere.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yes, and I think it's important to you know, we
talk about it a lot on this podcast, Follow your Intuition,
And I think a lot of times, as Caribbean women,
we are so used to ignoring that. I think, you know,
we're raised a lot of times to just think, oh,
that's all so and so is, or you know, I
had to do the same thing, so it's okay. But
(06:45):
if you don't feel it's okay, it doesn't matter if
other people do. I think it's important to remember to
go with that. And like the person said, you know,
you can leave any situation and don't have to feel
like you're being impolite, because that whole politeness thing is
another thing that I think keeps persons in situations or
in scenarios that they probably shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
And you have those to your body, your body has
that intuition for a reason. It's of protective.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yes, absolutely, Okay, so that definitely sounds safe. We agree
on that one for sure, all right. So the next
person said, the only man who hasn't disappointed me is
Jesus Christ. Oh my gosh, Hilarius.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's a hard one, right.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I feel like I get what they're saying. It's a
little strong and extreme, but I feel like you just
have to take things and make a joke. So I
love that you're making humor out of it. But perhaps
this goes back to the second one. You're just dating
people or surrounding yourselves with men because you said men,
(07:55):
so surrounding yourselves around certain men that you shouldn't be
and so they're kind of, I don't know, breaking your
trust in men or you know what you're expecting from
them perfectly, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
As human beings were made to disappoint. You know, we're imperfect,
we are imperfectly human, and Jesus Christ. You know, if
you want to think about it, your relationship with your faith,
it's kind of hard for an entity to disappoint you
because you're not dealing with them. And also they're not human.
(08:33):
That's true. So I think, you know, sometimes we do
have unrealistic expectations for people. Some people you know, you
know deep down they are going to disappoint you, but
you go there anyway. But other times people do tricky
So I think, you know, realizing that it's up to
you to ultimately make you happy. There's no person on
(08:53):
this earth who can do it all for you, unfortunately,
and when you when you realize that, then it's very freeing.
You know, you no longer fell shackle to some person.
Your happiness doesn't depend on someone else. Your happiness depends
on you. I love that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I love that that's so beautifully said, and you're right.
So many times, you know, you could think someone in
some way and they could you know, as we say
in the Caribbean, give you a six for a nine, right, Like,
you think that they're this one way, and maybe they're
being that way because they want to get something out
of you, or you know, they have an ulterior motive,
and it can leave you very disappointed if you're, like
(09:29):
you said, dependent on that person for your happiness. So
I think that's so brilliantly said and absolutely true. So yeah,
that one, I'm not sure. Maybe that one is in
the middle. It's not safe, but it's kind of safe.
So yeah, we'll leave that one.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, listen, I have had some people who've actually even
turned on Jesus and they're like, Jesus, why didn't you
protect me? Right, So like people have different different experiences.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yes, that's so true, so true even Jesus, isn't it?
So nobody is safe. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh. All right,
two more. The next person said, they say thirty is
the new twenty and forty is the new thirty. But
(10:12):
all I know is nine pm is a new midnight.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That sounds very safe. I can cosign that.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It's so funny. I was saying to my friend the
other day, I'm like, I can't believe when I was younger,
I was dying to stay up so late. Now I
can't wait to go to my bed.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, I mean, when you think about it, we're learning
now that sleep is a huge predictor and how long
we live it. Guess under five hours of sleep is
associated with a fifty percent higher mortality rate, right, and
people who are sixty five, So that goes for everyone
(10:57):
under sixty five, not just old folks. But you know,
if you if you took lab animals and you and
you deprive them of sleep, they would die. Sleep is
not just so we feel good. Sleep actually helps us
to restore our immune systems so we fight off sicknesses better.
Sleep allows our brains to clear out toxsin, so we
(11:19):
think better, we have less chance of dementia. Sleep allows
us to have better heart health. Sleep allows our skin
to glow, our hair to grow, our bones to work well.
It just it just helps every single part of our body.
So when we're bragging about pulling an all night or
partying to like the break of dawn, well just realize
(11:42):
it's at a.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Cost, right, Everything has a cost, so well die. Yes, yes,
that's so well said. And I love that you listed
all the ways that sleep can benefit somebody, because you're right.
I think that there is this kind of dialogue that
side team no sleep or you know, I work like
I have ten jobs and that's like praised and it's like, no,
(12:05):
get some sleep, Like that's not something you want to
be doing. And perhaps that's just indicative of you needing
to organize maybe your time better, or to you know,
not spread yourself so thin because you only have a
certain amount of time in the day and if it
is that you're only able to get a couple hours
of sleep. And granted, there are situations where you know,
(12:27):
maybe you have a single mom that's working two jobs
and taking care of kids and you know, just trying
her best, for example, Like, we obviously understand that, but
you should still try to prioritize sleep, is what you're saying.
And I think that's a very important message that people
often don't think is as important because it's almost like,
(12:47):
I don't know, sometimes I get the feeling people think
sleeping is like a luxury, like you got to sleep today,
So like, wow, you know where it should be a
necessity not a luxury.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely, And you know sleeping used to be even
in medicine years ago, people didn't understand the importance of sleep,
Like doctors didn't understand the importance of sleep. And we
know that. You know, your brain shuts off for a reason.
You think about the people like cavemen or people who
existed before civilization or our modern civilization. You know, when
(13:22):
you think about sleep, you're like, well, why would your
brain purposely shut down and put you asleep, because doesn't
that make you more vulnerable for animals, right, they come
and kill you in your sleep. Right. But the reason
that we need to sleep is because it does protect
us and our longevity. It protects our health, it allows
us to live longer, and so sleep is sacred. It's
(13:43):
so sacred. With my partner, the first thing we'll ask
each other in the morning is how did you sleep,
because we know the importance of sleep. We know that
sleep is literally gold. No, that's so true.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
That's so true. And you're right to say. I love
that you explained that story too, because I think it
really puts it into perspective. But also I think it
sets a tone for your day.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So that's great that you guys ask each other that,
because it's like, probably if you know that you didn't
get enough sleep, it's kind of like, okay, let me
leave you alone for a couple hours because you're probably
probably not in the best mood because you didn't get
enough rest, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Ash, because
there's not one mental health condition where sleep is not impacted.
Every single mental health condition has stressful sleeping. And that's
how Oh.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
My gosh, wow, I did not know that.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's wow.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That's very important to know. So ladies and gentlemen, make
sure you get your sleep this evening. Okay, all right.
And the last one for this segment, the person said,
this is actually a quote by James Baldwin, and it
says children have never been very good at listening to
their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
True, you can't tell your kids to do something if
you're you can't tell your kids to not do something
if you're doing it. You know, if you want your
kids to not be on their devices, well you're going
to have to close your laptop. Yeah. Right. To be
kind to others, well then you're gonna have to show
kindness and demonstrate that. If you want your kids to
have high confidence, you have to have high confidence. You
(15:22):
can't tell your child you're so beautiful, you know, don't
let those kids tease you when you're criticizing yourself and
calling yourself overweight or short or ugly. Right, So you
have to demonstrate what you want to see in your kids.
You have to live.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That, yes, absolutely, and again such an important message.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It is Caribbean American Heritage Month, and I just feel
like in our communities we're sometimes told as children, you know,
do as I say, not as I do. And I
think that's such a good example of why it's important
to also emulate what you want your children to do.
Because just me thinking about my childhood, I don't remember
(16:02):
half of the things my parents said, but I remember
the way they carry themselves, the way they treated people,
the way they, like you said, spoke about themselves. Those
are the things I remember, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
So even these days where we see so much, you know,
hatred and racism, and you have these families saying, oh,
I don't know where this is coming from. Well do
you say bigoted and hateful things in front of your children?
You know, even if you think it's funny or a joke,
because that's what they see. You can't tell them be
kind and treat everyone of all backgrounds the same. And
(16:34):
then you you behind closed doors, you know, saying negative
things and powerful things and bigoted things. Right, they're going
to go and do that. So if we want to
raise a generation of children who are kind and do
the right things in the world, we have to be kind.
We have to do the right things in the world too.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Now we're going to talk the real things So, doctor Jdith,
I want to begin with something you write early in
your book that you can be high achieving, high functioning
and still not feel whole. So how did that realization
begin to take shape for you personally or did it
even take shape for you personally? And why do you
(17:18):
feel like that message is so important?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, like many people who were born in the Caribbean
or who because parents are from abroad, you know, I
was the American dream for my parents. I was born
in Trinidad, yeah, and we came to this country. It
was all about you know, you got to take every opportunity.
You can't leave anything on the table. You don't want
(17:44):
to be wasteful, always with this thought that someone at
home doesn't have what you have, right. So there I
was the high achiever, you know, graduating top of my
class in high school, getting all the scholarships, going to
the good school, getting the degrees, chasing this idea of happiness,
but missing out on joy. And the reason I say
(18:07):
that is because we often think of happiness as these
things that happen right right right. Once I graduate and
get my degree, I'll be happy once I get the job.
I'll be happy once I pay off the debt. I'll
be happy once I get married, I'll be happy. It's
all these things, right, But the science shows us that
when you have that type of mindset where you're delaying
(18:27):
your happiness for something to happen, yeah, you're still not
happy even when that thing happens. And what happens is
that you're missing out on the experience of joy. So
think of happiness as an idea. You know, it's external,
it's dependent on things other things to happen. But joy
is an experience, it's internal, it's from within. And so
(18:49):
many of us you would chase this idea of all
these things that we think will make us happy, but
we're missing out on the daily joy. We're missing out
on connecting to people, we're missing out on treating our
body is kindly by getting sleep, or missing out on,
you know, eating foods that are actually beneficial to our
brains because we're so busy that we just grab the
(19:10):
first thing that we can get shoven into ourselves and
don't even think about how it's impacting our health, right, right,
But when you actually have that mind shift of I'm
going to experience joy every day and I'm going to
be intentional about it. That is actually how we measure
happiness in the science, but no one knows this. Yeah,
but you to measure happiness in my research job, we're
(19:32):
adding up all these things. So we'll ask people. You know,
when you ate your food, was it savory? And if
you say yes, that's a point. When you were lonely
and you reached out to your loved one and you
felt seen and connected, well, that's a point. You know,
if you were really stressed and worried and you were
able to self soothe, that's a point because it's really
(19:52):
hard to be joyful when you're stressed. Right. All of
these things are the ways that we know you're getting happy.
But in the real world, chase these things to happen.
They chase these events, these these big landmarks, and they
think that's what's going to make them happy. But when
they get that, they're still unhappy, right, because it's dependent
on some external factor factor and a lot of folks,
(20:15):
you know, we we we're chasing these things because we're
taught in our culture that this is the this is
how you know you're happy. But then when we get
these things, we're still feeling empty. We're still feeling a
lack of joy. And that's what I call anne horedonia.
It's a scientific term. It's been around for a long time,
but people don't even realize they're experiencing the lack of
(20:37):
joy and that is a problem.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Wow, that's so that's so true, and I think it's
so relevant for our community, right like you said it.
And I I do feel like we're getting better at
acknowledging that those things that our parents and grandparents, you know,
the accolades, we're acknowledging that we don't have to have
(20:58):
those things anymore. But I think that it's important to
have these conversations or for people to hear these type
of conversations to know that what made your parents or
your grandparents happy doesn't have to make you happy, you know,
and that this is also your life, Like that's one
another aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
This is your life.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So you don't want to depend on that external factor,
as you said, as far as like, oh, I'm going
to do all the right things, I'm going to get
all the good grades. I'm going to you know, like
you said, go to the good schools and my parents
are going to be happy. But where does that leave me?
Because I always like to say, you know, your parents
already lived, they already got to live their life. And
(21:39):
by you choosing joy, I feel like you're also going
to be a better sister, a better daughter, a better
you know, a wife, a better like whatever you are,
whatever role you play. If you're choosing joy, I also
feel like it's going to be reflected in how positively
you choose to show up in the world as well.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yes, and also understanding the science of what's making you unhappy.
I think many of us we're chasing these tools, these books,
these memes that we think worked for others, and so
we're like, well, why doesn't it work for me? Well,
you don't even understand the science of your unhappiness. If
you don't understand what's taken away from your joy, how
(22:21):
do you know what's going to make you happy? And
many of us in the Caribbean disper We have a
lot of trauma. You know, many of us grow up
away from our loved ones. It's not uncommon to be
separate from our family members for longer time, right, Yeah,
I experienced this. I talk about this in my book
(22:41):
a lot. How for years my relationship with my father
was from a distance, because in many Caribbean homes, one
family member stays behind take care of business, take care
of other things, or and sometimes the siblings are split
up at one point. That's how my family he was.
My dad had two of my siblings, my mom had two.
(23:03):
So you know, these are things that are very common experiences,
but yet they are traumas. They're attachment traumas, their emotional traumas.
And then we're just told everybody's like that, so don't.
It's like this great invalidation. And I remember watching the
Bob Marley movie. Yeah, I love that. I loved it
(23:24):
so much I went to the theater to see it twice.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yes, it was excellent.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
It was so good, totally underrated. I don't know how
to move it in when and ask about the conversation.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Not even nominated, right, yeah, that's crazy, it was.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Because it was so well done. And you know, looking
at his upbringing, how you know he he had the
classic attachment trauma where he didn't get to grow up
with either parents very closely, was raised by a grandparent.
You know, that is such a common Caribbean experience, but
we're told, well, that happens to everyone, so why you're complaining, Well,
(24:01):
just because it happens to a lot of people doesn't
mean it's not painful.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Beautifully said, Yes, yeah, a lot.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Of us have this type of early childhood pain that
we just we don't have a process. And then we
wonder why we have a hard time trusting our partners,
We wonder why we have we struggle in our relationships. Well,
we didn't have a very good attachment figure to begin with. Yeah,
and so and so. You know, I think acknowledging all
of these traumas. A very common one is, you know,
(24:30):
moving from a beautiful, warm country where you know you're
treated with dignity and your neighbors love you, and then
you're yanked into a cold country where the neighbors don't
know who you are, they couldn't care.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You don't understand, you.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Don't understand, you make funny, your accent, all those things traumas.
They're painful, but you're just told, well, everybody goes to that,
what makes you special. Well, again, we're not saying everyone
in our community doesn't go through it, but we also
say in that maybe everyone in our community needs to
process that trauma because it is trauma.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
It's one hundred percent are.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Painful experiences that we don't necessarily acknowledge, and we don't
even take into account how it impacts our decision making,
how we offering, how we are in relationships, how we
are with interesting others, you know, and why we overwork,
why we busy ourselves. And I think with high function depression,
(25:25):
we many of us, are trying to outrun a pass
that we don't have a process, So we busy ourselves.
We can't sit still. We're working, you know, we're over
functioning to cope with our pain versus other people and
other cultures may shut down, right, they may stay in
bed and crowded, but we're busy functioning, you know, busying ourselves,
taking on two three jobs, doing one hundred degrees, you know,
(25:46):
because this is our way of avoiding our pain, or
not processing our pain, or even running from our pain.
And that's why high functioning depression. I think it's running
rampant in a lot of immigrant.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Communities, definitely. And it's funny as you say that, I'm
thinking of all the amazingly hilarious Caribbean comedians on social media.
For example, I know there was one I wish I
could remember her name right now, But she did of
skit where she was in her room and you know, depressed,
and her mom came in and she's like, you know
(26:19):
what's her mom was Guyanese, A's who she was emulating,
and she's like, what's wrong with you? Why are you
just sitting in the bed like that? And she's like, Mom,
I'm depressed, and she's like, go depress your book about depression,
you have anything to depress be depressed about. And it's
like we all laugh, but we also could really use
group therapy because it's just not okay. And while it
(26:42):
makes us laugh and we can laugh about it, no,
it's just like, man, we all really went through the
same thing, and that's not good.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I think that the good thing is we can laugh
about it. The great thing is we are in a
time where I feel like I'm not a parent yet,
but I do feel like parents know they're changing that dynamic.
So it's like with each generation we're learning something more
and more to where I feel like, hopefully one day
we won't all have those similar stories, you know, Because
(27:15):
you're right, depression is a real thing and people should
definitely do what they can to seek help for it
so that they can live a life of joy, because
it's the one look a life that we have, so
we might as well be joyful if we can.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You know, yes, that concept of joy is so interesting
because I hear that a lot in the families I
work with. It's like, well, you don't have time to
be depressed. You have student loan to pay off, you know,
you have bills. But it's funny because if we were
to time travel and go back in time and look
at our ancestors. Yeah, in the Caribbean, they they were
(27:51):
taking care of their mental health the whole time. They
were just calling it something else, you know. Yeah, you
know in America we'll say, oh, therapy, but in our ancestors,
they may not use the word therapy. But they did
forms of meditating. Right. They would go to the beach
and sit in front of the water and just sit
(28:12):
and be still, and they were being present in nature
and that was their form of their mindfulness therapy. Right.
Or you know, we call it nutritional psychiatry when you
eat foods that are good for your brain. But in
the Caribbean, you know, you would eat spices that were
actually anti inflammatory, and you're rosy and that was actually
(28:34):
decreasing inflammation in your body and making your brain happier.
And you know, here and therapy will do bilateral stimulation
where we we do these little methods to help our
right brain talk to the left brain, so it kind
of heals us. But in the Caribbean, when we dance
and I we wineing and we're left right, that's our
form of bilateral simulation, you know. Right. And when we're
(28:56):
going to church and we're praying and we're speaking, you know,
positive things out loud, that's our positive affirmation. So you know,
we have to be mindful that therapy and mental health
is not a new thing. It was always ours. We
just called it something else. Yeah, And when you reframed
that with your parents and with the older generation, then
(29:16):
they are more likely to accept it versus calling it
something that they don't relate to. Right right, At the
end of the day, we all want the same thing.
We want our families to be happy and healthy and whole,
and we just have to go about it in different ways.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Definitely, And I love that you said that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It makes me.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It instantly made me think of you know, in the
US or in Western culture, they might want balance and
we want palance. So it's just a different, a different
way I'm looking at it, But that is what makes
us happy. Like was just talking to a guest that
I had last week, and we were talking about how
(29:55):
Soka just brings you joy, Like no matter what kind
of day you're having, you can utan soca and just
feel good. Right, And I think that's just a gift
we have with our music that it just makes people
feel good and it's very positive and uplifting. And you
could have a million problems and a million bills to pay,
but I know for a fact, if you're from Trinidad,
(30:17):
you are going to be at Carnival. You better believe,
and you know, and not necessarily because you're irresponsible, although
one could perceive it that way, but because just being
in the atmosphere of your people and the music and
the drums and you know, the pan everything, it just
brings you that joy. So you're right, it is a
(30:38):
form of therapy. It's just something different. I love that
that's so beautifully So.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's something different. Right, And Carnival happens at different times
throughout all the islands, and right time the year that
everyone acknowledges prioritizing joy no matter what rights shut down.
You see the judge, the doctor in the road whining.
You know, every prioritizes joy, and so again you know,
(31:03):
it's our way of taking care of mental health and
prioritizing our joy. So I want to challenge people who think, oh,
I don't have mental health. I don't have mental health.
Everyone has mental health, just like everyone has physical health.
It is your choice to prioritize in mental health and
to protect it and nurture it, or to neglect it. Right,
It is a choice, and that's why I want people
(31:27):
to walk away with just knowing that we all have
mental health in the same way we have physical health,
and we have to take care of our mental health.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So you created the five VS framework validation, venting, values, vitals,
and vision as a pathway to healing. So if someone
listening today is silently struggling but still you know, wanting
to or needing to get it all done, where would
you advise them to begin.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I always start with validation. And the reason that I
use five v's is because I've troubled the world looking
at mental health and health care and the number five
pops up across the globe, no matter where you're, where
you're from. And I think it's because the majority of
us have five fingers, so a lot of people go yeah,
get their hands yeah, and say yourself when you look
(32:19):
at your hand, I'm built with the DNA for joy.
Toy is my birthright as a human, but sometimes I
forget how to access it. And then you tap into
one of the five vee's daily, not all, just one
or two to try and reclaim your joy when you're
feeling stuck or you're feeling a lack of joy. So yeah,
I always start with validation because if you don't acknowledge
how you feel and accept how you feel, then how
(32:41):
do you know what to do. Many of us walk
around saying I'm so angry, but when you really think
about it, we're not angry. We're anxious, we're worried. But
anger was maybe the emotion that we saw mirrored at home.
So naming how you feel is very, very powerful, because
there's a term in psychology called affect labeling. If you
(33:02):
appropriately name your feelings, that act in itself is calming.
And I always describe it as imagine if you were
in a dark room you couldn't see anything and something loud.
You know, you heard a big loud crash, right, some
of us would start screaming, some of us would start swinging,
some of us start running. But if you turn the
(33:23):
light on and you saw, oh, it was just an
inadamant object that fell, then you feel calm right. Knowing
how you feel and turning that light on on your
emotions is a calming effect. It allows us to have
less uncertainty and to appropriately name. And then when we
name our emotions appropriately, we know what to do next.
(33:44):
So again, the practice of acknowledging and naming how you feel.
If you feel lonely, say it, you know, don't say
I feel sad, Say I feel lonely, and then oh,
I feel lonelys So that means I need to reach
out right, right, you know, if you're feeling If you
say I'm grumpy, but you really do feel tired, then
you're like, oh, actually I just need to rest right. Hungry? Yeah,
(34:05):
angry and hungry yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
And what you're saying is also name the right emotion too,
the correct emotion, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, But it's hard to name the correct emotion if
you don't practice accepting an acknowledge and to begin with,
which many of us don't because it wasn't modeled for us.
Many of our parents just pushed it down and moved on.
But if you push down your emotions, you push down
how you feel, then you also push down your ability
to feel joy. So it's really powerful to appropriately name
(34:34):
and acknowledge your emotions. And the second b is venting.
Venting is expressing your emotion. I always, you know, have
people come into my lab and I fill up a
red balloon and I had them take turns pushing this
balloon down in water, and one hundred percent of the
time that balloon pops up. Why you can't out math physics,
it will pop up if you don't express how you feel.
(34:56):
Those emotions will pop up in your health, they'll pop
up in your relationships, in your family life. Help that work.
So expressing your emotions over time is like deflating that balloon. Right,
If you deflate it, you can push it down in
the water, right or glied. And so you can express
your emotions verbally. You know you can talk about with someone,
(35:18):
but don't go and just telling everybody a business who
you want to talk to, be intentional about it. Pick
one or two people who you trust and who trust you, right,
because it has to have reciprocity, so they have to
be people that can come to you too, so it's
a fair and balanced relationship. And when you do vent
to them, you want to check in and ask for
emotional consent. You want to say, hey, is this a
(35:41):
good time for me to talk about something important. You
don't want to go and just blurt it out and
not ask for consent because they may have something going
on in their lives and they're not ready to hear you. Right, true,
And you want to have a good intention, you know,
you want to have the intention of resolving the issue.
You don't want to just be you know, trauma dumping
on people just to get them on your side when
you know you're wrong and strong, right right, right, right,
(36:05):
So make sure that you are taking the right people.
Don't vent to your kids because they're in a position
of power that's below you, and they're going to worry
about you. But they will never reject you. They'll listen, right,
but then there you're passing your pain onto them, right,
they'll take it. Don't vet to people who work for
you either, again saying power dynamic, they're not going to
say anything. They don't want to be angry at the boss,
but they will go on traumat them at home, right,
(36:27):
and then it becomes this vicious cycle. Yeah, you don't
have to vent verbally. You can vent by writing at a journal.
I recommend that people do that, that they self vent first,
they write it down or they say it aloud to themselves,
because that again, you're you're deflating that balloon. You're letting
the pressure out so you can think about it or regulated. Right.
(36:47):
But you know, my father is a pastor. He would
never talk to a therapist. But that man can pray.
He is what we call a prayer warrior, praying right
faith based that way.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Right, right, No, that's so true. Venting is definitely it's important,
and I feel like it's something that we're shunned away
from a lot because there's that perception of like chatting
your business, right or telling people your business. But I
love that you said you can choose to be intentional
with who you share things with. And the opposite of
(37:23):
keeping it inside is also not doing you a service,
you know, because you're keeping those emotionals bottled up, and
who knows, maybe because you're keeping them bottled up, they're
only going to increase like the balloon analogy you gave,
and then you're just going to blow up and maybe
develop high blood pressure from keeping that inside, you know.
So I think that it's really important to, like you said,
(37:46):
surround yourself with persons, at least one or two people
that you can just share things with. And also, I
think if you can incorporate in relationships just to kind
of gauge where someone is. Maybe you might have that
person you can confide in, but maybe they're going through something,
so maybe that's not the best time to, you know,
share whatever you have to share with them. So that's
(38:07):
why you have another person. Just taking those things into consideration,
I think is really important.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Absolutely have at one or two people, you know, because
you run the risk of you're telling everybody how you
feel and then someone uses it against you and then
then you you know, you feel betrayed and then you
don't share it all. So you want to be delicate
with that information and have one or two people that
you can trust to talk to. Yeah, and if you
(38:36):
don't have one or two people, a therapist, you know, therapist, yes,
have to check in first, that's their job. Their job
is to listen to you and to help you and
to guide you through difficult experiences and emotions. So that's
a really positive way to deal with venting. And also
if you don't, if you're an artist, you can invent
(38:58):
by expressing yours through your music. I work with a
lot of artists who you know, they paint or they
do music, and that's really helpful. And with the younger
patients I work with, you know, a lot of them cry,
And I wish more adults would cry every now and
then because I think it's a healthy way to get
rid of some of that anxiety. You tell a child
to stop crying, they cry harder. Right. But if you
(39:19):
tell a child you know it's okay. Crying makes you
feel better, it's okay to be sad. You notice that
child will stop crying. Yeah, They'll feel better because they
feel heard. And so some of my patients sometimes they're
in my office and they're trying to stifle up a
tear and I say, just let it out, and once
they cry, it feel better. Right. Yeah, So having that
emotion is so powerful. It really does help you.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I love that and me love a good cry. So
you're talking to the right person because I love to,
you know, just release it and get it told. And
I was very fortunate enough to have grown up with
parents and an immediate family that allowed that. And I
just think it's so import like you said, because of course,
(40:02):
another typical line is you want me to give you
something to cry for, as they're giving you something to
cry for and expecting you not to cry, you know.
So so yeah, I think that's very important. You are
very big on social media, as I mentioned in the introduction,
and you've made it all the way to Congress. Your
(40:23):
voice is reaching spaces where mental health conversations often get
left behind. And just this year you led a Congressional
special on Caribbean American mental health. What did that mean
to you personally and what did it mean to bring
your advocacy full circle as a woman from Trinidad standing
(40:44):
in that space.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, so that many people don't know this, but Juna's
Caribbean Heritage Month, and this was only really only recently recognized. Yeah. First,
the first celebration of the White House was in twenty
twenty three and Kamala Harris was the host of that event.
I went to that event at the White House in
(41:08):
twenty twenty three, and then the following year in two
thousand twenty four, Congresswoman Sheila Chafellis McCormick, who is the
Haitian American congresswoman out of Miami, she invited me to
do a congressional recording on Caribbean American mental health. And
(41:34):
she was the person who also who awarded me a
Congressional Proclamation Award for my advocacy in the community because
she recognizes that mental health is largely underserved in our community.
We don't talk about it, and we don't have the
access to it, and we have high rates of trauma, yes,
high high rates of trauma, but again we don't we
(41:55):
don't get the resources, and we don't get the support
of When I let that discussion about Caribbean American mental health,
I wanted to make sure that everyone understood that mental
health is theirs right you you have. You have mental
health within your culture no matter where you are throughout
the diaspora. So I want you to auth make it
(42:19):
authentic to you. And and I came up with an
acronym called carib C A R I B. Not like
the bear. Well it's not the bear, but it's not
about the bear because you know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
You know, you have to make that clear, you know,
because the wild be like, oh I'm doing it with
mental health hilarious. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
So the c is community because you know, loneliness we're
learning in a mental health is then it's a real
problem being lonely. It's like smoking a pack and a
half a cigarettes in terms of what it does to
our mortality. But in the Caribbean, we have a sense
of community, and that's how we've been able to cope. Right.
I mentioned how many of us grew up in or
(43:09):
had communities in the Caribbean where our neighbor helped us.
I remember growing up my mom's My mom had four
kids back to back, but she always had a community
and the neighbors would help out. You know, we'd share
fruit from each other's backyard, we cook for each other.
It was really a sense of healing and field lonely. Yeah,
(43:30):
and thinking about it, when we come to this country,
many times we're the only person like us or were isolated,
and it becomes more about an individual versus a community. Yeah,
we change our values in such ways that we forget
about the community that we had back home. So try
to remember that and try to foster a sense of
(43:51):
community because that is healing. Yeah, and the a in
carib is attitude. Many times, our attitude towards my health
needs to shift, right. I've told you about how people
have a lot of stigma about Oh, depression doesn't happen
to us, you know, especially if you come from a
religious background like I did. Many times, you know, mental
(44:11):
health conditions we're seen as being personal defects, right like, oh,
you must have done something, you must have had a
curse put on you, you possessed, or something like that.
We have to change our attitudes around us because you know,
many of us don't understand that the brain is a
part of the body, and the brain has periods of
(44:32):
not you know, having the right support, and so people
may have things like depression, anxiety and conditions that are
not their fault. It's just part of their brain. So
we have to change our attitudes and increase the stigma.
The R is ritual. You know, we have so many
rituals in our mental health at back home that we
don't even realize. Like I said, going to the beach,
(44:54):
sitting by the water, just meditating, let it feel that
that sand in our tolds. We don't realize that we're
practicing grounding, right, that's so true. Yeah, understand the rituals
you left back home and try and replicate them here.
You know, you may not have access to a beach,
but you have access to a park, go out in nature.
(45:14):
You know these rituals we used to be involved with,
you know, dancing in carnival, walking down the road. Well,
we don't get that as much as that movement anymore.
Back home, we would take a walk to the savannah,
play cricket on the weekends, you know, like I did.
We don't do that here. We get sedentary. So try
to engage in those rituals that were healthy for your
body and brain. And the eye is intention, you know,
(45:39):
really be intentional about the things that you're doing every
day to support your mental health and well being. Don't
just say, oh, I'm going to decrease my stress. Say
I'm going to be intentional about decreasing my stress by
doing X Y Z. Right. I'm not going to put
my face in front of a screen all day long
because I know that that causes my brain to be overwhelm.
(46:00):
I'm looking at my phone, looking at my laptop, looking
at the TV. Like, if you're going to be intentional
by your mental health, then you're gonna say, oh, let
me just sit here and listen to some music that's soothing,
and let me not look at screens. You know, well,
let me actually connect to someone in real time versus
sending them a text message meme. Right, we could all
we all laugh, we get these memes, but let's actually
(46:22):
connect with others. So really be intentional about your actions
that support your mental health and your well being. And
then the beat is body. You know, I mentioned how
back home we have these practices that we don't even
realize we're really healthy for our bodies. Like when I
grew up in Trinidad that I remember my early years,
we would hear the fish man outside, the milkman outside.
(46:45):
You know, there were fruits in the backyard. We were
eating fruits that were not processed, that were healthy. And
then we come here and you know, we eat foods
that are fast, that are process you know, Yeah, we're
not getting the movement we were getting back at home.
You know. So like all these things for our body
that we used to do back home that were helpful,
(47:06):
let's try to tap back into that and then that's
why I like the term carab because, you know, it
reminds us that mental health is ours. It always has been.
We're just calling it something different, so let's tap back
into it in a way that feels authentic for us.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I love that that's so beautifully said, and I love
that acronym. I actually think if the company is planning
any type of I don't know, community outreach, you would
be the perfect person because people instantly think of the
Caribbean when they hear a Caribe, you know, for many
different reasons, not just the bear, although that's probably the
(47:40):
most common, you know. But I think acronyms like that
are helpful because it's associated with something you already know,
you know what I mean, It's not something you have
to relearn. So I love that beautiful, beautiful. Okay, So
before we transition to our final segment, I've been allowing
my guests to ask me one question this season since
(48:00):
you guys don't get to ask me anything. So is
there anything that you'd like to ask me?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, the majority of my audience tends to be, you know,
the people who are from the Caribbean. The majority of
those people tend to be women. Ah, and I wonder
if there are any things that you have seen in
men in terms of mental health in the Caribbean that oh,
I know that question is Caribbean American, is Caribbean Heritage Month,
(48:28):
but it's also men's health month.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And it's funny you say that because last season I
had I want to say, all men during this month
last season, and we and they were all men from
the Caribbean, with the exception of I think one, and
we talked about that. So that's so you're reading my notes,
you know, doctor Judith.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
That's so unbranded.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
And I love that question. So last season I had
a conversation with actually one of my best friends, Donald
where we specifically spoke about men's mental health and the
fact that you know him being born in Jamaica, all
that kind of relates to being a Caribbean man in
addition to that a black man in this country. And
(49:10):
one of the things I will say, and you kind
of touched on it earlier, is that whole idea of assimilation.
I find that for some Caribbean men, they come here
and depending on where they land, you know their parents.
A lot of us come here at a young age,
they might feel like they don't want to stay true
(49:30):
to those traditions like you were talking about earlier, within
their culture, right, so they'll gravitate towards you know, the
American crowd or just some just try to fit in
in some way, shape or form. And I feel as
though that has been difficult for them to navigate based
on those conversations. I also think that emotions, that's a
(49:52):
big one, the whole thing we spoke about earlier, you know, crying.
We talked a lot about little boys that have feelings
about certain things and want to cry, and because they don't,
they end up very angry. So yeah, I would say
those are the two factors I've seen.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, that's something i've seen as well. I'm glad that
you're discussing that on your podcast. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
It's definitely an important thing. Okay, So for our final segment,
I'm going to ask you seven rapid fire questions very quick,
and you answer with the first thing that comes to mind.
What's one thing psychiatry should unlearn.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
We need to unlearn waiting for people to break down
before we do something to help them. People can be
pathologically productive on the outside, but struggling on the inside.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Mm I love that. Okay. What is something you once
believed about success that you no longer believe?
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Success is not about outside happiness. Don't wait for things
to happen on the outside. Try and cultivate joy every day.
That's true success. Oh.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I love that, and so relatable to the theme and
to your best selling book. Next question, what is one
Caribbean dish that always brings you home one.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
Hundred percent of the time? Shark and bake from the
chase only.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Okay, so specific place as well. Okay, one day I
have to make it to turn it doad and I'm
going to make sure I go there specifically.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Okay. What is a book that you've been gifted more
than once?
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Definitely the Book Attached. I love that book. Oh it
is about attachment styles. I've read it at least five times.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Really all I have to look that up. Okay, nice,
all right, Next.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Question coming by Michelle Obama. I've been gifted it so
many times. I love it. Oh nice.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, that's a good book as well. And what's a
daily ritual that you swear by for your mental health?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
My skin care? Since I was a medical student. I've
had a ritual my skincare time, and people always like, oh,
your skin is glowing. And I have a routine that
I do not stay away from, like I do that
every day no matter where I am in line.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
I love that. I love that. Beautiful, beautiful. All right,
last two questions. What's one myth about strong women? Quote unquote?
You wish that we would retire as a society.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Don't do it alone. Always rich out for help, Always
lean on others. You know, there's nothing strong about doing
it alone. Friends to ask for help.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Yes, I love that, no suffering, no sufferation. Love that,
get the help for sure. And lastly, I want you
to answer this question not as doctor Judith, but as Judith,
the woman, the woman from Trinidad, the daughter, the sister.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
When you look back at the.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Girl that you were full of drive, carrying so much,
what would you want her to know about joy?
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Joy is right in front of you. It's the person
that makes you laugh. It's the rest he decided not
to take, you know, It's the break that you were
avoiding because you thought that you were lazy. It's all
these tiny points that you're just leaving on the table.
Stop chasing happiness. Joy is your.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Birthright, Doctor Judith, I just have a little thank you
that I would like to say to you before we
wrap up. What you've shared with us today, I think
is equal part science, you know, story and really truth.
And in your work and in your way, you've named
what so many people feel but can't necessarily articulate, and
(54:04):
in doing so, you've created space for pause, for honesty,
and most importantly, for healing. Your brilliance is undeniable, and
it resonates even more. What resonates to me, I should
say even more, is your integrity and your commitment to
really lifting others as you climb to the next level
(54:25):
in your life and in your career, and really to
making mental health accessible. I think that's so important, not
just for those who can afford a therapist, but for
entire communities like ours that have long been overlooked or
longing to understand that we had a role in mental
health all along.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
As you said earlier, and.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
As a daughter of Trinidad and Tobago, your presence in medicine,
media and the cultural conversation really expands what's possible not
just for Caribbean women, but for anyone who has been
told that feeling deeply is a weakness. We see you,
we thank you, and we are all better for it.
So yeah, thanks for coming to talk things with me.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure.
What does it mean to be high achieving, highly capable
and quietly unraveling inside? It's a question that doctor Judith
Joseph has not only asked in her clinical practice and research,
it's one that she's had to ask herself. As a
Trinidadian American born to a mother of South Indian descent
(00:24):
and a father of Afro Caribbean descent, Doctor Judith brings
to the conversation a rare kind of fluency, one that
spans cultures, identities, and disciplines. She is a BORED certified psychiatrist,
a clinical assistant professor at NYU, a best selling author,
(00:45):
and a trusted voice in national media. But what makes
her work different is how deeply it speaks to those
who have learned to mask emotional pain with public success.
In her best way selling book High Functioning, Overcome Your
Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, she gives language to
(01:07):
the experience of suffering in silence and offers a road
map out of it. As we celebrate Caribbean American Heritage Month,
I feel that it's extremely important to celebrate not just
what doctor Judith has accomplished, but how she has accomplished
it with purpose, compassion, and an unwavering commitment to the
(01:31):
communities she represents and serves. By doing what she was
born to do, she has helped so many other persons
feel seen, heard, and understood. One could say her joy
has become a catalyst for hours. In this episode, we
explore how trauma is often normalized in Caribbean households, how
(01:56):
high functioning depression is too frequently misread as resilient, and
why reclaiming joy must be a part of our healing,
not the reward. Afterward, we talk about the cultural weight
of being the strong one, the goal oriented person, the
(02:16):
high achiever, the clinical reality of how sleep affects life expectancy,
and the small things that keep doctor Judith grounded, including
her favorite triny food, and her deep belief that mental
wellness is not just personal work, but community care, because
(02:36):
how you feel about yourself and the joy that you
feel about the life you're living, spills on to everyone
around you. Doctor Judith reminds us that healing doesn't have
to be loud, but it does have to be honest,
and even in the most accomplished rooms, someone is still
(02:57):
waiting for permission to exhale. If you're listening to the
podcast on Apple Podcast. Please remember to rate and leave
a comment below. Also, don't forget to follow us on
Instagram at Let's Talk the Tings. Now, grab your tea, coffee,
(03:17):
or a glass of wine and Let's Talk the Tings.
Hello everyone, Welcome back to Let's Talk to Things, where
we discuss personal growth, travel, music, beauty and wellness while
encouraging you to live fearlessly and fabulously. I'm your host,
Ash and this week we are Talking to Things with
(03:41):
doctor Judith Joseph, a board certified psychiatrist, Chair of Women
of the Women in Medicine Initiative at Columbia University NYU,
clinical Assistant professor, a pioneering researcher, a social media creator,
an educator with over a million followers, and the author
(04:02):
of the national best selling book High Functioning Overcome your
Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy. So hi, doctor Jdith,
how are you welcome? Thank you for having me, Thank
you for being here. I'm so happy to have you
here and so excited for this much needed conversation. So so,
(04:23):
as a first time guest, I should say, and for
persons listening for the first time. We begin each episode
with our listener's favorite segment, and it's called dat no
sound safe. So it's basically an icebreaker where I read
messages or social media posts that listeners sent in, and
if you think it sounds crazy or a little bit concerning,
(04:47):
you'd say that no sounds safe and explain why. And
if you agree, you say you agree and explain why
sounds good?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, all right, all right.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So the first person said, you're looking for love and
consistency from inconsistent people who don't know love, and it's
stealing your hope.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
That sound safe?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
No, not at all, not at all. I think that
a lot of times we can just have this hope
that somebody will change or will meet us where we are.
But I think you know that Maya Angelo quote comes
to mind. When someone shows you who they are, you
have to believe their you know, yes, that last part
(05:29):
I always forget. That's true. That last part is key
the first time. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, okay. The next person said,
dear young adults, you can leave if you don't like
your doctor, walk out in the middle of your apartment,
(05:50):
leave the party and the date. Don't wait until the
polite time to leave or endure because you think you'll
make a scene, you can go.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
That that that's appropriate. Yeah, if you feel unsafe in
any situation, you should leave. Yes, Fortunately, not all doctors
are kind. Some doctors are not kind, Some doctors are
not doing the right thing. I think the majority of
doctors are in it for the right reasons, but some doctors, unfortunately,
(06:22):
are not. They're bad apples everywhere.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yes, and I think it's important to you know, we
talk about it a lot on this podcast, Follow your Intuition,
And I think a lot of times, as Caribbean women,
we are so used to ignoring that. I think, you know,
we're raised a lot of times to just think, oh,
that's all so and so is, or you know, I
had to do the same thing, so it's okay. But
(06:45):
if you don't feel it's okay, it doesn't matter if
other people do. I think it's important to remember to
go with that. And like the person said, you know,
you can leave any situation and don't have to feel
like you're being impolite, because that whole politeness thing is
another thing that I think keeps persons in situations or
in scenarios that they probably shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
And you have those to your body, your body has
that intuition for a reason. It's of protective.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yes, absolutely, Okay, so that definitely sounds safe. We agree
on that one for sure, all right. So the next
person said, the only man who hasn't disappointed me is
Jesus Christ. Oh my gosh, Hilarius.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
That's a hard one, right.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I feel like I get what they're saying. It's a
little strong and extreme, but I feel like you just
have to take things and make a joke. So I
love that you're making humor out of it. But perhaps
this goes back to the second one. You're just dating
people or surrounding yourselves with men because you said men,
(07:55):
so surrounding yourselves around certain men that you shouldn't be
and so they're kind of, I don't know, breaking your
trust in men or you know what you're expecting from
them perfectly, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
As human beings were made to disappoint. You know, we're imperfect,
we are imperfectly human, and Jesus Christ. You know, if
you want to think about it, your relationship with your faith,
it's kind of hard for an entity to disappoint you
because you're not dealing with them. And also they're not human.
(08:33):
That's true. So I think, you know, sometimes we do
have unrealistic expectations for people. Some people you know, you
know deep down they are going to disappoint you, but
you go there anyway. But other times people do tricky
So I think, you know, realizing that it's up to
you to ultimately make you happy. There's no person on
(08:53):
this earth who can do it all for you, unfortunately,
and when you when you realize that, then it's very freeing.
You know, you no longer fell shackle to some person.
Your happiness doesn't depend on someone else. Your happiness depends
on you. I love that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I love that that's so beautifully said, and you're right.
So many times, you know, you could think someone in
some way and they could you know, as we say
in the Caribbean, give you a six for a nine, right, Like,
you think that they're this one way, and maybe they're
being that way because they want to get something out
of you, or you know, they have an ulterior motive,
and it can leave you very disappointed if you're, like
(09:29):
you said, dependent on that person for your happiness. So
I think that's so brilliantly said and absolutely true. So yeah,
that one, I'm not sure. Maybe that one is in
the middle. It's not safe, but it's kind of safe.
So yeah, we'll leave that one.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Well, listen, I have had some people who've actually even
turned on Jesus and they're like, Jesus, why didn't you
protect me? Right, So like people have different different experiences.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yes, that's so true, so true even Jesus, isn't it?
So nobody is safe. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh. All right,
two more. The next person said, they say thirty is
the new twenty and forty is the new thirty. But
(10:12):
all I know is nine pm is a new midnight.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That sounds very safe. I can cosign that.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It's so funny. I was saying to my friend the
other day, I'm like, I can't believe when I was younger,
I was dying to stay up so late. Now I
can't wait to go to my bed.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, I mean, when you think about it, we're learning
now that sleep is a huge predictor and how long
we live it. Guess under five hours of sleep is
associated with a fifty percent higher mortality rate, right, and
people who are sixty five, So that goes for everyone
(10:57):
under sixty five, not just old folks. But you know,
if you if you took lab animals and you and
you deprive them of sleep, they would die. Sleep is
not just so we feel good. Sleep actually helps us
to restore our immune systems so we fight off sicknesses better.
Sleep allows our brains to clear out toxsin, so we
(11:19):
think better, we have less chance of dementia. Sleep allows
us to have better heart health. Sleep allows our skin
to glow, our hair to grow, our bones to work well.
It just it just helps every single part of our body.
So when we're bragging about pulling an all night or
partying to like the break of dawn, well just realize
(11:42):
it's at a.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Cost, right, Everything has a cost, so well die. Yes, yes,
that's so well said. And I love that you listed
all the ways that sleep can benefit somebody, because you're right.
I think that there is this kind of dialogue that
side team no sleep or you know, I work like
I have ten jobs and that's like praised and it's like, no,
(12:05):
get some sleep, Like that's not something you want to
be doing. And perhaps that's just indicative of you needing
to organize maybe your time better, or to you know,
not spread yourself so thin because you only have a
certain amount of time in the day and if it
is that you're only able to get a couple hours
of sleep. And granted, there are situations where you know,
(12:27):
maybe you have a single mom that's working two jobs
and taking care of kids and you know, just trying
her best, for example, Like, we obviously understand that, but
you should still try to prioritize sleep, is what you're saying.
And I think that's a very important message that people
often don't think is as important because it's almost like,
(12:47):
I don't know, sometimes I get the feeling people think
sleeping is like a luxury, like you got to sleep today,
So like, wow, you know where it should be a
necessity not a luxury.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, absolutely, And you know sleeping used to be even
in medicine years ago, people didn't understand the importance of sleep,
Like doctors didn't understand the importance of sleep. And we
know that. You know, your brain shuts off for a reason.
You think about the people like cavemen or people who
existed before civilization or our modern civilization. You know, when
(13:22):
you think about sleep, you're like, well, why would your
brain purposely shut down and put you asleep, because doesn't
that make you more vulnerable for animals, right, they come
and kill you in your sleep. Right. But the reason
that we need to sleep is because it does protect
us and our longevity. It protects our health, it allows
us to live longer, and so sleep is sacred. It's
(13:43):
so sacred. With my partner, the first thing we'll ask
each other in the morning is how did you sleep,
because we know the importance of sleep. We know that
sleep is literally gold. No, that's so true.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
That's so true. And you're right to say. I love
that you explained that story too, because I think it
really puts it into perspective. But also I think it
sets a tone for your day.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So that's great that you guys ask each other that,
because it's like, probably if you know that you didn't
get enough sleep, it's kind of like, okay, let me
leave you alone for a couple hours because you're probably
probably not in the best mood because you didn't get
enough rest, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Ash, because
there's not one mental health condition where sleep is not impacted.
Every single mental health condition has stressful sleeping. And that's
how Oh.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
My gosh, wow, I did not know that.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
That's wow.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That's very important to know. So ladies and gentlemen, make
sure you get your sleep this evening. Okay, all right.
And the last one for this segment, the person said,
this is actually a quote by James Baldwin, and it
says children have never been very good at listening to
their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
True, you can't tell your kids to do something if
you're you can't tell your kids to not do something
if you're doing it. You know, if you want your
kids to not be on their devices, well you're going
to have to close your laptop. Yeah. Right. To be
kind to others, well then you're gonna have to show
kindness and demonstrate that. If you want your kids to
have high confidence, you have to have high confidence. You
(15:22):
can't tell your child you're so beautiful, you know, don't
let those kids tease you when you're criticizing yourself and
calling yourself overweight or short or ugly. Right, So you
have to demonstrate what you want to see in your kids.
You have to live.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That, yes, absolutely, and again such an important message.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It is Caribbean American Heritage Month, and I just feel
like in our communities we're sometimes told as children, you know,
do as I say, not as I do. And I
think that's such a good example of why it's important
to also emulate what you want your children to do.
Because just me thinking about my childhood, I don't remember
(16:02):
half of the things my parents said, but I remember
the way they carry themselves, the way they treated people,
the way they, like you said, spoke about themselves. Those
are the things I remember, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
So even these days where we see so much, you know,
hatred and racism, and you have these families saying, oh,
I don't know where this is coming from. Well do
you say bigoted and hateful things in front of your children?
You know, even if you think it's funny or a joke,
because that's what they see. You can't tell them be
kind and treat everyone of all backgrounds the same. And
(16:34):
then you you behind closed doors, you know, saying negative
things and powerful things and bigoted things. Right, they're going
to go and do that. So if we want to
raise a generation of children who are kind and do
the right things in the world, we have to be kind.
We have to do the right things in the world too.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Now we're going to talk the real things So, doctor Jdith,
I want to begin with something you write early in
your book that you can be high achieving, high functioning
and still not feel whole. So how did that realization
begin to take shape for you personally or did it
even take shape for you personally? And why do you
(17:18):
feel like that message is so important?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, like many people who were born in the Caribbean
or who because parents are from abroad, you know, I
was the American dream for my parents. I was born
in Trinidad, yeah, and we came to this country. It
was all about you know, you got to take every opportunity.
You can't leave anything on the table. You don't want
(17:44):
to be wasteful, always with this thought that someone at
home doesn't have what you have, right. So there I
was the high achiever, you know, graduating top of my
class in high school, getting all the scholarships, going to
the good school, getting the degrees, chasing this idea of happiness,
but missing out on joy. And the reason I say
(18:07):
that is because we often think of happiness as these
things that happen right right right. Once I graduate and
get my degree, I'll be happy once I get the job.
I'll be happy once I pay off the debt. I'll
be happy once I get married, I'll be happy. It's
all these things, right, But the science shows us that
when you have that type of mindset where you're delaying
(18:27):
your happiness for something to happen, yeah, you're still not
happy even when that thing happens. And what happens is
that you're missing out on the experience of joy. So
think of happiness as an idea. You know, it's external,
it's dependent on things other things to happen. But joy
is an experience, it's internal, it's from within. And so
(18:49):
many of us you would chase this idea of all
these things that we think will make us happy, but
we're missing out on the daily joy. We're missing out
on connecting to people, we're missing out on treating our
body is kindly by getting sleep, or missing out on,
you know, eating foods that are actually beneficial to our
brains because we're so busy that we just grab the
(19:10):
first thing that we can get shoven into ourselves and
don't even think about how it's impacting our health, right, right,
But when you actually have that mind shift of I'm
going to experience joy every day and I'm going to
be intentional about it. That is actually how we measure
happiness in the science, but no one knows this. Yeah,
but you to measure happiness in my research job, we're
(19:32):
adding up all these things. So we'll ask people. You know,
when you ate your food, was it savory? And if
you say yes, that's a point. When you were lonely
and you reached out to your loved one and you
felt seen and connected, well, that's a point. You know,
if you were really stressed and worried and you were
able to self soothe, that's a point because it's really
(19:52):
hard to be joyful when you're stressed. Right. All of
these things are the ways that we know you're getting happy.
But in the real world, chase these things to happen.
They chase these events, these these big landmarks, and they
think that's what's going to make them happy. But when
they get that, they're still unhappy, right, because it's dependent
on some external factor factor and a lot of folks,
(20:15):
you know, we we we're chasing these things because we're
taught in our culture that this is the this is
how you know you're happy. But then when we get
these things, we're still feeling empty. We're still feeling a
lack of joy. And that's what I call anne horedonia.
It's a scientific term. It's been around for a long time,
but people don't even realize they're experiencing the lack of
(20:37):
joy and that is a problem.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Wow, that's so that's so true, and I think it's
so relevant for our community, right like you said it.
And I I do feel like we're getting better at
acknowledging that those things that our parents and grandparents, you know,
the accolades, we're acknowledging that we don't have to have
(20:58):
those things anymore. But I think that it's important to
have these conversations or for people to hear these type
of conversations to know that what made your parents or
your grandparents happy doesn't have to make you happy, you know,
and that this is also your life, Like that's one
another aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
This is your life.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So you don't want to depend on that external factor,
as you said, as far as like, oh, I'm going
to do all the right things, I'm going to get
all the good grades. I'm going to you know, like
you said, go to the good schools and my parents
are going to be happy. But where does that leave me?
Because I always like to say, you know, your parents
already lived, they already got to live their life. And
(21:39):
by you choosing joy, I feel like you're also going
to be a better sister, a better daughter, a better
you know, a wife, a better like whatever you are,
whatever role you play. If you're choosing joy, I also
feel like it's going to be reflected in how positively
you choose to show up in the world as well.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yes, and also understanding the science of what's making you unhappy.
I think many of us we're chasing these tools, these books,
these memes that we think worked for others, and so
we're like, well, why doesn't it work for me? Well,
you don't even understand the science of your unhappiness. If
you don't understand what's taken away from your joy, how
(22:21):
do you know what's going to make you happy? And
many of us in the Caribbean disper We have a
lot of trauma. You know, many of us grow up
away from our loved ones. It's not uncommon to be
separate from our family members for longer time, right, Yeah,
I experienced this. I talk about this in my book
(22:41):
a lot. How for years my relationship with my father
was from a distance, because in many Caribbean homes, one
family member stays behind take care of business, take care
of other things, or and sometimes the siblings are split
up at one point. That's how my family he was.
My dad had two of my siblings, my mom had two.
(23:03):
So you know, these are things that are very common experiences,
but yet they are traumas. They're attachment traumas, their emotional traumas.
And then we're just told everybody's like that, so don't.
It's like this great invalidation. And I remember watching the
Bob Marley movie. Yeah, I love that. I loved it
(23:24):
so much I went to the theater to see it twice.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yes, it was excellent.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
It was so good, totally underrated. I don't know how
to move it in when and ask about the conversation.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Not even nominated, right, yeah, that's crazy, it was.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Because it was so well done. And you know, looking
at his upbringing, how you know he he had the
classic attachment trauma where he didn't get to grow up
with either parents very closely, was raised by a grandparent.
You know, that is such a common Caribbean experience, but
we're told, well, that happens to everyone, so why you're complaining, Well,
(24:01):
just because it happens to a lot of people doesn't
mean it's not painful.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Beautifully said, Yes, yeah, a lot.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Of us have this type of early childhood pain that
we just we don't have a process. And then we
wonder why we have a hard time trusting our partners,
We wonder why we have we struggle in our relationships. Well,
we didn't have a very good attachment figure to begin with. Yeah,
and so and so. You know, I think acknowledging all
of these traumas. A very common one is, you know,
(24:30):
moving from a beautiful, warm country where you know you're
treated with dignity and your neighbors love you, and then
you're yanked into a cold country where the neighbors don't
know who you are, they couldn't care.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
You don't understand, you.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Don't understand, you make funny, your accent, all those things traumas.
They're painful, but you're just told, well, everybody goes to that,
what makes you special. Well, again, we're not saying everyone
in our community doesn't go through it, but we also
say in that maybe everyone in our community needs to
process that trauma because it is trauma.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
It's one hundred percent are.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Painful experiences that we don't necessarily acknowledge, and we don't
even take into account how it impacts our decision making,
how we offering, how we are in relationships, how we
are with interesting others, you know, and why we overwork,
why we busy ourselves. And I think with high function depression,
(25:25):
we many of us, are trying to outrun a pass
that we don't have a process, So we busy ourselves.
We can't sit still. We're working, you know, we're over
functioning to cope with our pain versus other people and
other cultures may shut down, right, they may stay in
bed and crowded, but we're busy functioning, you know, busying ourselves,
taking on two three jobs, doing one hundred degrees, you know,
(25:46):
because this is our way of avoiding our pain, or
not processing our pain, or even running from our pain.
And that's why high functioning depression. I think it's running
rampant in a lot of immigrant.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Communities, definitely. And it's funny as you say that, I'm
thinking of all the amazingly hilarious Caribbean comedians on social media.
For example, I know there was one I wish I
could remember her name right now, But she did of
skit where she was in her room and you know, depressed,
and her mom came in and she's like, you know
(26:19):
what's her mom was Guyanese, A's who she was emulating,
and she's like, what's wrong with you? Why are you
just sitting in the bed like that? And she's like, Mom,
I'm depressed, and she's like, go depress your book about depression,
you have anything to depress be depressed about. And it's
like we all laugh, but we also could really use
group therapy because it's just not okay. And while it
(26:42):
makes us laugh and we can laugh about it, no,
it's just like, man, we all really went through the
same thing, and that's not good.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I think that the good thing is we can laugh
about it. The great thing is we are in a
time where I feel like I'm not a parent yet,
but I do feel like parents know they're changing that dynamic.
So it's like with each generation we're learning something more
and more to where I feel like, hopefully one day
we won't all have those similar stories, you know, Because
(27:15):
you're right, depression is a real thing and people should
definitely do what they can to seek help for it
so that they can live a life of joy, because
it's the one look a life that we have, so
we might as well be joyful if we can.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You know, yes, that concept of joy is so interesting
because I hear that a lot in the families I
work with. It's like, well, you don't have time to
be depressed. You have student loan to pay off, you know,
you have bills. But it's funny because if we were
to time travel and go back in time and look
at our ancestors. Yeah, in the Caribbean, they they were
(27:51):
taking care of their mental health the whole time. They
were just calling it something else, you know. Yeah, you
know in America we'll say, oh, therapy, but in our ancestors,
they may not use the word therapy. But they did
forms of meditating. Right. They would go to the beach
and sit in front of the water and just sit
(28:12):
and be still, and they were being present in nature
and that was their form of their mindfulness therapy. Right.
Or you know, we call it nutritional psychiatry when you
eat foods that are good for your brain. But in
the Caribbean, you know, you would eat spices that were
actually anti inflammatory, and you're rosy and that was actually
(28:34):
decreasing inflammation in your body and making your brain happier.
And you know, here and therapy will do bilateral stimulation
where we we do these little methods to help our
right brain talk to the left brain, so it kind
of heals us. But in the Caribbean, when we dance
and I we wineing and we're left right, that's our
form of bilateral simulation, you know. Right. And when we're
(28:56):
going to church and we're praying and we're speaking, you know,
positive things out loud, that's our positive affirmation. So you know,
we have to be mindful that therapy and mental health
is not a new thing. It was always ours. We
just called it something else. Yeah, And when you reframed
that with your parents and with the older generation, then
(29:16):
they are more likely to accept it versus calling it
something that they don't relate to. Right right, At the
end of the day, we all want the same thing.
We want our families to be happy and healthy and whole,
and we just have to go about it in different ways.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Definitely, And I love that you said that.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
It makes me.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It instantly made me think of you know, in the
US or in Western culture, they might want balance and
we want palance. So it's just a different, a different
way I'm looking at it, But that is what makes
us happy. Like was just talking to a guest that
I had last week, and we were talking about how
(29:55):
Soka just brings you joy, Like no matter what kind
of day you're having, you can utan soca and just
feel good. Right, And I think that's just a gift
we have with our music that it just makes people
feel good and it's very positive and uplifting. And you
could have a million problems and a million bills to pay,
but I know for a fact, if you're from Trinidad,
(30:17):
you are going to be at Carnival. You better believe,
and you know, and not necessarily because you're irresponsible, although
one could perceive it that way, but because just being
in the atmosphere of your people and the music and
the drums and you know, the pan everything, it just
brings you that joy. So you're right, it is a
(30:38):
form of therapy. It's just something different. I love that
that's so beautifully So.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's something different. Right, And Carnival happens at different times
throughout all the islands, and right time the year that
everyone acknowledges prioritizing joy no matter what rights shut down.
You see the judge, the doctor in the road whining.
You know, every prioritizes joy, and so again you know,
(31:03):
it's our way of taking care of mental health and
prioritizing our joy. So I want to challenge people who think, oh,
I don't have mental health. I don't have mental health.
Everyone has mental health, just like everyone has physical health.
It is your choice to prioritize in mental health and
to protect it and nurture it, or to neglect it. Right,
It is a choice, and that's why I want people
(31:27):
to walk away with just knowing that we all have
mental health in the same way we have physical health,
and we have to take care of our mental health.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
So you created the five VS framework validation, venting, values, vitals,
and vision as a pathway to healing. So if someone
listening today is silently struggling but still you know, wanting
to or needing to get it all done, where would
you advise them to begin.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I always start with validation. And the reason that I
use five v's is because I've troubled the world looking
at mental health and health care and the number five
pops up across the globe, no matter where you're, where
you're from. And I think it's because the majority of
us have five fingers, so a lot of people go yeah,
get their hands yeah, and say yourself when you look
(32:19):
at your hand, I'm built with the DNA for joy.
Toy is my birthright as a human, but sometimes I
forget how to access it. And then you tap into
one of the five vee's daily, not all, just one
or two to try and reclaim your joy when you're
feeling stuck or you're feeling a lack of joy. So yeah,
I always start with validation because if you don't acknowledge
how you feel and accept how you feel, then how
(32:41):
do you know what to do. Many of us walk
around saying I'm so angry, but when you really think
about it, we're not angry. We're anxious, we're worried. But
anger was maybe the emotion that we saw mirrored at home.
So naming how you feel is very, very powerful, because
there's a term in psychology called affect labeling. If you
(33:02):
appropriately name your feelings, that act in itself is calming.
And I always describe it as imagine if you were
in a dark room you couldn't see anything and something loud.
You know, you heard a big loud crash, right, some
of us would start screaming, some of us would start swinging,
some of us start running. But if you turn the
(33:23):
light on and you saw, oh, it was just an
inadamant object that fell, then you feel calm right. Knowing
how you feel and turning that light on on your
emotions is a calming effect. It allows us to have
less uncertainty and to appropriately name. And then when we
name our emotions appropriately, we know what to do next.
(33:44):
So again, the practice of acknowledging and naming how you feel.
If you feel lonely, say it, you know, don't say
I feel sad, Say I feel lonely, and then oh,
I feel lonelys So that means I need to reach
out right, right, you know, if you're feeling If you
say I'm grumpy, but you really do feel tired, then
you're like, oh, actually I just need to rest right. Hungry? Yeah,
(34:05):
angry and hungry yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
And what you're saying is also name the right emotion too,
the correct emotion, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yeah, But it's hard to name the correct emotion if
you don't practice accepting an acknowledge and to begin with,
which many of us don't because it wasn't modeled for us.
Many of our parents just pushed it down and moved on.
But if you push down your emotions, you push down
how you feel, then you also push down your ability
to feel joy. So it's really powerful to appropriately name
(34:34):
and acknowledge your emotions. And the second b is venting.
Venting is expressing your emotion. I always, you know, have
people come into my lab and I fill up a
red balloon and I had them take turns pushing this
balloon down in water, and one hundred percent of the
time that balloon pops up. Why you can't out math physics,
it will pop up if you don't express how you feel.
(34:56):
Those emotions will pop up in your health, they'll pop
up in your relationships, in your family life. Help that work.
So expressing your emotions over time is like deflating that balloon. Right,
If you deflate it, you can push it down in
the water, right or glied. And so you can express
your emotions verbally. You know you can talk about with someone,
(35:18):
but don't go and just telling everybody a business who
you want to talk to, be intentional about it. Pick
one or two people who you trust and who trust you, right,
because it has to have reciprocity, so they have to
be people that can come to you too, so it's
a fair and balanced relationship. And when you do vent
to them, you want to check in and ask for
emotional consent. You want to say, hey, is this a
(35:41):
good time for me to talk about something important. You
don't want to go and just blurt it out and
not ask for consent because they may have something going
on in their lives and they're not ready to hear you. Right, true,
And you want to have a good intention, you know,
you want to have the intention of resolving the issue.
You don't want to just be you know, trauma dumping
on people just to get them on your side when
you know you're wrong and strong, right right, right, right,
(36:05):
So make sure that you are taking the right people.
Don't vent to your kids because they're in a position
of power that's below you, and they're going to worry
about you. But they will never reject you. They'll listen, right,
but then there you're passing your pain onto them, right,
they'll take it. Don't vet to people who work for
you either, again saying power dynamic, they're not going to
say anything. They don't want to be angry at the boss,
but they will go on traumat them at home, right,
(36:27):
and then it becomes this vicious cycle. Yeah, you don't
have to vent verbally. You can vent by writing at a journal.
I recommend that people do that, that they self vent first,
they write it down or they say it aloud to themselves,
because that again, you're you're deflating that balloon. You're letting
the pressure out so you can think about it or regulated. Right.
(36:47):
But you know, my father is a pastor. He would
never talk to a therapist. But that man can pray.
He is what we call a prayer warrior, praying right
faith based that way.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Right, right, No, that's so true. Venting is definitely it's important,
and I feel like it's something that we're shunned away
from a lot because there's that perception of like chatting
your business, right or telling people your business. But I
love that you said you can choose to be intentional
with who you share things with. And the opposite of
(37:23):
keeping it inside is also not doing you a service,
you know, because you're keeping those emotionals bottled up, and
who knows, maybe because you're keeping them bottled up, they're
only going to increase like the balloon analogy you gave,
and then you're just going to blow up and maybe
develop high blood pressure from keeping that inside, you know.
So I think that it's really important to, like you said,
(37:46):
surround yourself with persons, at least one or two people
that you can just share things with. And also, I
think if you can incorporate in relationships just to kind
of gauge where someone is. Maybe you might have that
person you can confide in, but maybe they're going through something,
so maybe that's not the best time to, you know,
share whatever you have to share with them. So that's
(38:07):
why you have another person. Just taking those things into consideration,
I think is really important.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Absolutely have at one or two people, you know, because
you run the risk of you're telling everybody how you
feel and then someone uses it against you and then
then you you know, you feel betrayed and then you
don't share it all. So you want to be delicate
with that information and have one or two people that
you can trust to talk to. Yeah, and if you
(38:36):
don't have one or two people, a therapist, you know, therapist, yes,
have to check in first, that's their job. Their job
is to listen to you and to help you and
to guide you through difficult experiences and emotions. So that's
a really positive way to deal with venting. And also
if you don't, if you're an artist, you can invent
(38:58):
by expressing yours through your music. I work with a
lot of artists who you know, they paint or they
do music, and that's really helpful. And with the younger
patients I work with, you know, a lot of them cry,
And I wish more adults would cry every now and
then because I think it's a healthy way to get
rid of some of that anxiety. You tell a child
to stop crying, they cry harder. Right. But if you
(39:19):
tell a child you know it's okay. Crying makes you
feel better, it's okay to be sad. You notice that
child will stop crying. Yeah, They'll feel better because they
feel heard. And so some of my patients sometimes they're
in my office and they're trying to stifle up a
tear and I say, just let it out, and once
they cry, it feel better. Right. Yeah, So having that
emotion is so powerful. It really does help you.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
I love that and me love a good cry. So
you're talking to the right person because I love to,
you know, just release it and get it told. And
I was very fortunate enough to have grown up with
parents and an immediate family that allowed that. And I
just think it's so import like you said, because of course,
(40:02):
another typical line is you want me to give you
something to cry for, as they're giving you something to
cry for and expecting you not to cry, you know.
So so yeah, I think that's very important. You are
very big on social media, as I mentioned in the introduction,
and you've made it all the way to Congress. Your
(40:23):
voice is reaching spaces where mental health conversations often get
left behind. And just this year you led a Congressional
special on Caribbean American mental health. What did that mean
to you personally and what did it mean to bring
your advocacy full circle as a woman from Trinidad standing
(40:44):
in that space.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, so that many people don't know this, but Juna's
Caribbean Heritage Month, and this was only really only recently recognized. Yeah. First,
the first celebration of the White House was in twenty
twenty three and Kamala Harris was the host of that event.
I went to that event at the White House in
(41:08):
twenty twenty three, and then the following year in two
thousand twenty four, Congresswoman Sheila Chafellis McCormick, who is the
Haitian American congresswoman out of Miami, she invited me to
do a congressional recording on Caribbean American mental health. And
(41:34):
she was the person who also who awarded me a
Congressional Proclamation Award for my advocacy in the community because
she recognizes that mental health is largely underserved in our community.
We don't talk about it, and we don't have the
access to it, and we have high rates of trauma, yes,
high high rates of trauma, but again we don't we
(41:55):
don't get the resources, and we don't get the support
of When I let that discussion about Caribbean American mental health,
I wanted to make sure that everyone understood that mental
health is theirs right you you have. You have mental
health within your culture no matter where you are throughout
the diaspora. So I want you to auth make it
(42:19):
authentic to you. And and I came up with an
acronym called carib C A R I B. Not like
the bear. Well it's not the bear, but it's not
about the bear because you know.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
You know, you have to make that clear, you know,
because the wild be like, oh I'm doing it with
mental health hilarious. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
So the c is community because you know, loneliness we're
learning in a mental health is then it's a real
problem being lonely. It's like smoking a pack and a
half a cigarettes in terms of what it does to
our mortality. But in the Caribbean, we have a sense
of community, and that's how we've been able to cope. Right.
I mentioned how many of us grew up in or
(43:09):
had communities in the Caribbean where our neighbor helped us.
I remember growing up my mom's My mom had four
kids back to back, but she always had a community
and the neighbors would help out. You know, we'd share
fruit from each other's backyard, we cook for each other.
It was really a sense of healing and field lonely. Yeah,
(43:30):
and thinking about it, when we come to this country,
many times we're the only person like us or were isolated,
and it becomes more about an individual versus a community. Yeah,
we change our values in such ways that we forget
about the community that we had back home. So try
to remember that and try to foster a sense of
(43:51):
community because that is healing. Yeah, and the a in
carib is attitude. Many times, our attitude towards my health
needs to shift, right. I've told you about how people
have a lot of stigma about Oh, depression doesn't happen
to us, you know, especially if you come from a
religious background like I did. Many times, you know, mental
(44:11):
health conditions we're seen as being personal defects, right like, oh,
you must have done something, you must have had a
curse put on you, you possessed, or something like that.
We have to change our attitudes around us because you know,
many of us don't understand that the brain is a
part of the body, and the brain has periods of
(44:32):
not you know, having the right support, and so people
may have things like depression, anxiety and conditions that are
not their fault. It's just part of their brain. So
we have to change our attitudes and increase the stigma.
The R is ritual. You know, we have so many
rituals in our mental health at back home that we
don't even realize. Like I said, going to the beach,
(44:54):
sitting by the water, just meditating, let it feel that
that sand in our tolds. We don't realize that we're
practicing grounding, right, that's so true. Yeah, understand the rituals
you left back home and try and replicate them here.
You know, you may not have access to a beach,
but you have access to a park, go out in nature.
(45:14):
You know these rituals we used to be involved with,
you know, dancing in carnival, walking down the road. Well,
we don't get that as much as that movement anymore.
Back home, we would take a walk to the savannah,
play cricket on the weekends, you know, like I did.
We don't do that here. We get sedentary. So try
to engage in those rituals that were healthy for your
body and brain. And the eye is intention, you know,
(45:39):
really be intentional about the things that you're doing every
day to support your mental health and well being. Don't
just say, oh, I'm going to decrease my stress. Say
I'm going to be intentional about decreasing my stress by
doing X Y Z. Right. I'm not going to put
my face in front of a screen all day long
because I know that that causes my brain to be overwhelm.
(46:00):
I'm looking at my phone, looking at my laptop, looking
at the TV. Like, if you're going to be intentional
by your mental health, then you're gonna say, oh, let
me just sit here and listen to some music that's soothing,
and let me not look at screens. You know, well,
let me actually connect to someone in real time versus
sending them a text message meme. Right, we could all
we all laugh, we get these memes, but let's actually
(46:22):
connect with others. So really be intentional about your actions
that support your mental health and your well being. And
then the beat is body. You know, I mentioned how
back home we have these practices that we don't even
realize we're really healthy for our bodies. Like when I
grew up in Trinidad that I remember my early years,
we would hear the fish man outside, the milkman outside.
(46:45):
You know, there were fruits in the backyard. We were
eating fruits that were not processed, that were healthy. And
then we come here and you know, we eat foods
that are fast, that are process you know, Yeah, we're
not getting the movement we were getting back at home.
You know. So like all these things for our body
that we used to do back home that were helpful,
(47:06):
let's try to tap back into that and then that's
why I like the term carab because, you know, it
reminds us that mental health is ours. It always has been.
We're just calling it something different, so let's tap back
into it in a way that feels authentic for us.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I love that that's so beautifully said, and I love
that acronym. I actually think if the company is planning
any type of I don't know, community outreach, you would
be the perfect person because people instantly think of the
Caribbean when they hear a Caribe, you know, for many
different reasons, not just the bear, although that's probably the
(47:40):
most common, you know. But I think acronyms like that
are helpful because it's associated with something you already know,
you know what I mean, It's not something you have
to relearn. So I love that beautiful, beautiful. Okay, So
before we transition to our final segment, I've been allowing
my guests to ask me one question this season since
(48:00):
you guys don't get to ask me anything. So is
there anything that you'd like to ask me?
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, the majority of my audience tends to be, you know,
the people who are from the Caribbean. The majority of
those people tend to be women. Ah, and I wonder
if there are any things that you have seen in
men in terms of mental health in the Caribbean that oh,
I know that question is Caribbean American, is Caribbean Heritage Month,
(48:28):
but it's also men's health month.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And it's funny you say that because last season I
had I want to say, all men during this month
last season, and we and they were all men from
the Caribbean, with the exception of I think one, and
we talked about that. So that's so you're reading my notes,
you know, doctor Judith.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
That's so unbranded.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
And I love that question. So last season I had
a conversation with actually one of my best friends, Donald
where we specifically spoke about men's mental health and the
fact that you know him being born in Jamaica, all
that kind of relates to being a Caribbean man in
addition to that a black man in this country. And
(49:10):
one of the things I will say, and you kind
of touched on it earlier, is that whole idea of assimilation.
I find that for some Caribbean men, they come here
and depending on where they land, you know their parents.
A lot of us come here at a young age,
they might feel like they don't want to stay true
(49:30):
to those traditions like you were talking about earlier, within
their culture, right, so they'll gravitate towards you know, the
American crowd or just some just try to fit in
in some way, shape or form. And I feel as
though that has been difficult for them to navigate based
on those conversations. I also think that emotions, that's a
(49:52):
big one, the whole thing we spoke about earlier, you know, crying.
We talked a lot about little boys that have feelings
about certain things and want to cry, and because they don't,
they end up very angry. So yeah, I would say
those are the two factors I've seen.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, that's something i've seen as well. I'm glad that
you're discussing that on your podcast. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
It's definitely an important thing. Okay, So for our final segment,
I'm going to ask you seven rapid fire questions very quick,
and you answer with the first thing that comes to mind.
What's one thing psychiatry should unlearn.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
We need to unlearn waiting for people to break down
before we do something to help them. People can be
pathologically productive on the outside, but struggling on the inside.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
Mm I love that. Okay. What is something you once
believed about success that you no longer believe?
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Success is not about outside happiness. Don't wait for things
to happen on the outside. Try and cultivate joy every day.
That's true success. Oh.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I love that, and so relatable to the theme and
to your best selling book. Next question, what is one
Caribbean dish that always brings you home one.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
Hundred percent of the time? Shark and bake from the
chase only.
Speaker 1 (51:24):
Okay, so specific place as well. Okay, one day I
have to make it to turn it doad and I'm
going to make sure I go there specifically.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Love that.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Okay. What is a book that you've been gifted more
than once?
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Definitely the Book Attached. I love that book. Oh it
is about attachment styles. I've read it at least five times.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
Really all I have to look that up. Okay, nice,
all right, Next.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
Question coming by Michelle Obama. I've been gifted it so
many times. I love it. Oh nice.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, that's a good book as well. And what's a
daily ritual that you swear by for your mental health?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
My skin care? Since I was a medical student. I've
had a ritual my skincare time, and people always like, oh,
your skin is glowing. And I have a routine that
I do not stay away from, like I do that
every day no matter where I am in line.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
I love that. I love that. Beautiful, beautiful. All right,
last two questions. What's one myth about strong women? Quote unquote?
You wish that we would retire as a society.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Don't do it alone. Always rich out for help, Always
lean on others. You know, there's nothing strong about doing
it alone. Friends to ask for help.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
Yes, I love that, no suffering, no sufferation. Love that,
get the help for sure. And lastly, I want you
to answer this question not as doctor Judith, but as Judith,
the woman, the woman from Trinidad, the daughter, the sister.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
When you look back at the.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Girl that you were full of drive, carrying so much,
what would you want her to know about joy?
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Joy is right in front of you. It's the person
that makes you laugh. It's the rest he decided not
to take, you know, It's the break that you were
avoiding because you thought that you were lazy. It's all
these tiny points that you're just leaving on the table.
Stop chasing happiness. Joy is your.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Birthright, Doctor Judith, I just have a little thank you
that I would like to say to you before we
wrap up. What you've shared with us today, I think
is equal part science, you know, story and really truth.
And in your work and in your way, you've named
what so many people feel but can't necessarily articulate, and
(54:04):
in doing so, you've created space for pause, for honesty,
and most importantly, for healing. Your brilliance is undeniable, and
it resonates even more. What resonates to me, I should
say even more, is your integrity and your commitment to
really lifting others as you climb to the next level
(54:25):
in your life and in your career, and really to
making mental health accessible. I think that's so important, not
just for those who can afford a therapist, but for
entire communities like ours that have long been overlooked or
longing to understand that we had a role in mental
health all along.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
As you said earlier, and.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
As a daughter of Trinidad and Tobago, your presence in medicine,
media and the cultural conversation really expands what's possible not
just for Caribbean women, but for anyone who has been
told that feeling deeply is a weakness. We see you,
we thank you, and we are all better for it.
So yeah, thanks for coming to talk things with me.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure.
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