June 2, 2025 • 32 mins
In this 32-minute episode, I reconnect with Elizabeth Earnshaw, also known as Liz Listens on Instagram, returning to the podcast after five years. Elizabeth, a couples therapist and author of I Want This to Work and Till Stress Do Us Part, shares her personal and professional journey into understanding how invisible external stressors impact relationships.
We explore the concept of mental load disparities, varied stress responses, like the venomous king cobra, fearful deer, and playing dead opossum, and how these dynamics play out in partnerships under pressure. Elizabeth breaks down the importance of emotional attunement during life’s transitions, the delicate balance between our emotional and wise minds, and how couples can set compassionate boundaries or repair relationship ruptures when they arise.
This episode offers invaluable, practical tools and insights into navigating real-world stress together with empathy and collaboration, reminding us that dropping entitlement and accepting life’s challenges as a team strengthens our most important bonds.
To connect with Elizabeth and learn more: https://elizabethearnshaw.com
Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lizlistens/
To purchase: 'Till Stress Do Us Part - click here
To purchase: I Want This To Work" - click here
♾ In a fast-paced world like the one we live in, time is one of our most important assets. For a few minutes every episode, I, Tannaz Hosseinpour, will be discussing topics that aim to enhance the quality of your life, by helping you feel empowered to take inspired action on your personal growth journey.
Connect with me for daily insights on:
Instagram
Facebook
Tiktok
To sign up to the upcoming Tuscany retreat from August 18-23, click here
More resources available on : www.minutesongrowth.com
This podcast is for educational purposes only. The host claims no responsibility to any person or entity for any liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly as a result of the use, application, or interpretation of the information presented herein.
We explore the concept of mental load disparities, varied stress responses, like the venomous king cobra, fearful deer, and playing dead opossum, and how these dynamics play out in partnerships under pressure. Elizabeth breaks down the importance of emotional attunement during life’s transitions, the delicate balance between our emotional and wise minds, and how couples can set compassionate boundaries or repair relationship ruptures when they arise.
This episode offers invaluable, practical tools and insights into navigating real-world stress together with empathy and collaboration, reminding us that dropping entitlement and accepting life’s challenges as a team strengthens our most important bonds.
To connect with Elizabeth and learn more: https://elizabethearnshaw.com
Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lizlistens/
To purchase: 'Till Stress Do Us Part - click here
To purchase: I Want This To Work" - click here
♾ In a fast-paced world like the one we live in, time is one of our most important assets. For a few minutes every episode, I, Tannaz Hosseinpour, will be discussing topics that aim to enhance the quality of your life, by helping you feel empowered to take inspired action on your personal growth journey.
Connect with me for daily insights on:
Tiktok
To sign up to the upcoming Tuscany retreat from August 18-23, click here
More resources available on : www.minutesongrowth.com
This podcast is for educational purposes only. The host claims no responsibility to any person or entity for any liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly as a result of the use, application, or interpretation of the information presented herein.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to them Minutes on Growth Podcast, the show
that brings you mindfully curated insights into relationships, spirituality, personal
development and everything in between with your hosts Tenas the
same Poor, Hi Soul friends, it's Tanasa the same point
and welcome back to another episode of the Minutes on
(00:26):
Growth Podcast. Today, we have a really special guest here
with us. She is rejoining us after five years Time Flies.
I'd like to welcome Elizabeth Earnshaw. You might know hers
list listens on Instagram, the author of I Want This
to Work Until Stressed to Us Part Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm so excited to have you on and to discuss
this book. We read it in our book club and
the girls and I loved it. I think, as I
mentioned to you before, you really do have a talent
for simplifying in complex relational concepts, and the book was
especially your second book. I think it touches on a
topic that we don't talk about as often, and we
(01:11):
don't even think about because it's like this invisible, the
invisible load, the stressors, the external stressors that we don't
realize is impacting our life and our relationships to the
degree that it is, So I'm curious what made you
talk about this and write about this.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So personal life experience. First years ago, we were just
talking about how the last time we interviewed was I
think we interviewed like right at the start of the pandemic,
like right at the beginning when things were pretty wild.
But the last time that I was on the podcast,
(01:51):
the world was going through a lot of stressors and
I was kind of feeling those things absolutely. But a
couple of years before, I had had a child, and
my husband and I had been arguing a lot, and
I was really upset with him frequently, and he was
really upset because I was upset with him. So he
was feeling really withdrawn and kind of like, well, you know,
what do I do here? How do I engage with
(02:14):
you if you're aways so angry? And I remember just
thinking what is wrong with me? I'm a couple's therapist,
you know. I was going into the office telling people like,
don't be so critical, be more gentle with each other,
and then I was going home and I was having
a hard time doing it, and so I started researching,
(02:34):
you know, like what's going on? Why does anybody else
feel this? Way after having a baby. Why is it
that so many couples break up in the first year.
I actually had a therapist at the time. I don't
even know if I mentioned this in the book that
she said this, but she kind of started trying to
maybe like convince me to not be in the relationship.
(02:56):
And I remember thinking, Oh, I wish she knew the
stat that after birth people get into lots of arguments
and that divorce is pretty common, but that if people wait,
it's not as common, you know, after the first year.
And so I started researching that, and what I came
across was information about mental load disparities and how common
(03:20):
it is when the baby comes. Then all of a sudden,
you start to really notice who's the one that's researching
and delegating and doing all that kind of invisible stuff.
I started being hyper focused on that for a little bit,
you know, and everything I was seeing in my own
couples with my husband, just like, let's talk about this,
let's try to reallocate it. Oh, I see mental load
(03:40):
with the couples I'm working with. But then I started
to notice that, yes, that needed to change absolutely, and
a lot of partners who are not taking on the
mental load are willing to change it, you know, they're
open once they hear about it. But that I was
seeing that even couples who didn't have that disparity, we're
(04:02):
still struggling. So they'd be like, we figured it out,
we've outsourced things, we've redelegated, we've gotten rid of stuff,
but like we're still like fighting all the time. What's
going on And what I started to come to in
my own life and with the couples I was working with,
is like they were still under a ton of stress.
(04:23):
So one piece of it was mental low disparity, but
they also were under financial distress. They were under they
were working sixty hours a week, they were caretaking and
in law. Just lots of different things were going on.
And so that's a very long, convoluted answer of why
I eventually wrote the book was because I was seeing
(04:44):
it everywhere and how devastating mismanaged stress was to relationships.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
So powerful because in the book you say, like, people
think it's the relationship issues, but in fact it's that
are stressing them out. But it's a collective stress that's
causing relationship challenges.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, So often people will come into the therapy room,
or even in my own marriage, like it must be
our relationship, you know, we're we just have a bad relationship,
and that's causing all my problems and all my unhappiness.
And certainly it does cause a lot of unhappiness. But
what it really boils down to with many of the
couples that I see as they come in and they'll
(05:30):
present the problem as being each other. So we argue,
he's not sensitive enough, she's a nag, this person's withdrawn,
this person it's always arguing with me. But then when
we get beneath it, what's causing a lot of those
behaviors and reactions is that each person is carrying a
(05:52):
lot of stress and this is playing out in the
way that they're able to communicate with each other and
connect with each other.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You mentioned that not everyone has the same stress response,
that people respond differently to it, and the more stress
you are, I'm quoting you, the more you lose your
ability to express your thoughts and feelings, show humor, solve problems,
and offer affection. How come we have different stress responses
and what are some of these different stress responses?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, so we all respond to stress differently and there's
like a multitude of reasons for that. Some of it
is personality style, So it might be nothing about you
other than your personality is that you're just more like, whatever,
it'll work out. And so maybe a big bill comes
in the mail and it doesn't mean anything to you
(06:43):
because of your personality, your family history, whatever it is.
You're just like, it's okay, it'll work out. And that
same bill, with the same amount of money in the bank,
could cause another person to see it and start to
have their heart race and every terrible thought in their mind.
You know, they're going to lose their home, they're not
going to be able to afford it. What do they do?
(07:05):
And then maybe their stress responses they become very argumentative
or panicked, and so we all have different responses, and
like I said, some of its personality. Some of it
has to do with trauma history. You know, maybe one
person in the relationship experienced some sort of acute trauma,
(07:25):
like something scary happened to them, and so their nervous
system is more easily triggered, or maybe they had some
chronic kind of relational trauma where nobody was ever there
for them, and so when something big stressful happens, they
feel like nobody's going to be there for them again.
It can also have to do with the relationship history itself.
So if you haven't managed it well together throughout the relationship,
(07:49):
then you see a big stressful thing come up, you're
going to think, well, my partner's not going to be
there for me, and now I don't know what to do.
And then in response to stressors, some people respond by
getting really activated. So they seem more panicked, or they
become aggravated agitated, they fight, they say things they don't mean,
or they want to talk about it all the time.
(08:11):
You know, we've got to talk about it right now.
We've got to figure it out. Other people become more
withdrawn and avoidant, and so that might be if we're
using the bill example, their partner who's activated says we
need to figure this out right now, and the other
person is like, I don't want to talk about it
right now, and then they go down in the basement
and they watch TV and they don't look at it again.
(08:32):
And then some people get frozen right and they just
shut down and they're not able to engage at all
with the people around them or on the topic. Ideally,
what happens when we feel stressed is that we recognize
it and we become collaborative. That's like where we want
to get to is that we're able to be Like
(08:54):
that mail that I just opened, that had that bill
really stresses me out. You know it's stresses me out
because you know me. You can you take it because
I know it doesn't stress you out? Can you go
look at the bill or can you talk me through it?
But we want to learn how to become collaborators. But unfortunately,
most people don't become collaborative when they're stressed. Most people
(09:18):
become combative.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That's so powerful. You you talk about you know pretty
much what you were saying, and then you you talk
about these four stress responses the venomous king Cobra, the
fearful dear, the apostlem and playing dead. How do they
tie into what you just shared?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah? So like king Kobra is the activated one. Right,
So when I see a couple who's under stress and
they're the Cobra, they're in session and their partner says
something like, I don't know what to do with you know,
are my aging mother. We're going to have to take
care of her and the partner who the cobra says
(10:00):
something like, I don't give an f about your mother.
You know that stress causes them to become like a
very venomous and so content criticism, anger, rage that comes
out as the reaction to stress. And again there's a
lot of reasons for that. It's not that the person
isn't a bad person necessarily, it's that they feel threatened,
(10:26):
and when they feel threatened, they're gonna snap. And then
you've got the fearful, the fearful deer, right, and that's
like they're just gonna run off. And so they're like
deer in the headlights at first, and you say to them,
you know, we really need to talk about how your
(10:47):
mother always kind of criticizes my parenting. We have said
some boundaries, and the other person's like, well, I don't
know what you want me to say about that, and
then let's just talk about it later. They won't go
back to it. They're kind of avoiding it. They're fleeing
from the situation. And then the person who plays dead.
(11:08):
When there's something stressful going on in the family, with finances,
with the kids, with anything stressful, a medical issue, they
are not involved at all, So it kind of gets
confused with that deer, where like there's some both of
them are in some ways avoidant, but the deer is
(11:30):
like I see it and I'm actively running away from it,
Like we'll talk about it next week. I know we
need to talk about it, but I don't want to
talk about it now. I'll deal with my mom next week,
next time, next time I'm at the office, I'll talk
to my boss. But the one that plays dead like
the possum, is somebody who just kind of completely disconnects.
(11:54):
And so in couples therapy, what I'll see as a
partner where they'll say, we've got a lot going on,
but like you just stay in bed all day, or
you know, I know work is stressful for you, but
when you come home, I really want us. I want
you to join us at dinner. And what you're doing
every night is you're just going straight to your office
(12:15):
and you're not engaging with anybody. And when we can
look at it through the lens of these are stress responses.
And I'm not saying that's one hundred percent of the time.
There's certainly relationships where a partner goes off to their
office because they don't care, and you know, they don't
want to be around the family. There's certainly times where
somebody is vitriolic and cobra like because they're abusive. There's
(12:39):
certainly times where somebody's avoidant because they want to be
childlike and they don't want to take control of their lives.
And if you reflect and you think we've got a
lot going on, I know my partner better than that,
and I know that this is like not their norm.
This is odd that my partner is just disappearing, This
(12:59):
is odd that they're so angry all the time. Then
what you want to look at is what's going on
that's causing this experience in life that we're having to
feel so threatening because they're responding as if they're threatened
right now.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I love that you made that distinction, and I think
that's so powerful of like, is this the norm? Is
this how they usually act? Or is this just is
there something else that has infiltrated the relationship that we
didn't have in the past.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, And is there some good faith assessment I can
make of this? First? You know, I think in our
world and I'm sure that you notice this too. The
thing the advice that gets the most attention is the
bad faith advice. You know, like they're probably they're a jerk,
or if you know this person's not talking to you,
(13:55):
it's because they don't love you or something like they're
like any of these like non nuanced things. But if
you're in a committed long term relationship, you want to
try to lean into first doesn't mean forever. What's like
the best faith assessment I can make of my partner's
behavior right now? And you know, if I came home
(14:15):
and they like bit my head off because of the
way I came in, is that because they're a jerk?
Or is there something going on? You know? And when
you do that, you become better collaborators and you actually
get those you start to see those behaviors happen less.
You know, like I become the Cobra. I've become very like,
(14:36):
get out of my space. I need everybody to listen
to me. I'm irritated, I'm activated. And as soon as
my husband sees it, you know, he's able to be
my collaborator instead of the person who goes against me.
And so if I walk in the door and I'm
all grumpy, he says, to me, are you okay or
(14:57):
did something happen today? You know I'm able to be like, yeah, sorry,
it's not you guys like overwhelmed about this email I
just got, rather than if we look at it through
the bad faith lens, somebody walks in the door and
they seem groucy, and we say, what's your problem again?
Why are you always bringing this attitude into the house?
(15:17):
And that only adds more stress and more threatening feelings
into the relationship and into that person. I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I mean, you're a Gotmen trained therapist and one of
the teachings is to always give your partner the benefit
of the doubt.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It's like an indicator of a strong relationship. But in
the book, and you mentioned this earlier on, there were
there was that those challenges that you and your husband
were having after the first child. How long did it
take in your own marriage for you both to be
emotionally attuned with one another to be able to pick
(15:58):
up on those on those cue.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I think that's such a good question because the reality
is it it's like a journey always because life is
always changing. I tell couples a lot that you're gonna
you're going to face your biggest difficulties during transition points
because they are things you've never experienced. So when you're
(16:21):
the first baby, when you move, when you buy a
house together, when somebody gets a new job, somebody gets
more money than the other person gets, somebody dies, you know,
a parent dies, or a best friend. Those are the
places where you're going to struggle because it's the first
time you've experienced it as individuals, and then it's the
(16:43):
first time you've experienced it as a couple, and so
you're always going to have to learn how to reattune right, Like,
Andrew doesn't know who I am yet, I don't even
necessarily know who I am yet when I'm anemester, I've
never been one before. So when our kids go off
(17:05):
to college, we're going to have to learn to reattune
to each other again, and he that might upset me
or upset him, and we'll have to deal with that stress.
So my answer to the question is that we were
able to through many conversations, and it's not always easy.
It's not like the first time I sat down with
him and said, can I tell you about the mental load?
(17:27):
It didn't change the next day, But we had the conversation,
he was able to take it in. And then I
think there was like kind of forgetting about the conversation
and or him doing a great job, but me forgetting
to see that he was doing a great job. And
so it takes a little bit of time to be like,
oh wait, this is different and I am responding to
(17:49):
this person differently and they are responding to me differently.
And so that was like, you know, several months of that,
just back and forth like is this changing, I'm still
frustrated with you? Well why are you frustrated with me?
I feel like I've done something to change it, and
then me being like, yeah, I guess you have. I
don't know why I'm frustrated with you and getting really
(18:10):
good at that, and then you know, we then COVID happened,
and it's like that's a new thing. Okay, Well, how
does he react when he's stressed with work? How do
I learn to attune with that? Probably at first when
he actually I know, when he showed that he was
stressed at work, I would get frustrated with him and
I would be like, you know what, it's all hard
(18:33):
right now? Why are you grouchy? We need to just
like get it together. And then very quickly I was like, wait,
he's stressed because the world is like collapsing right now.
It's worried about work. Why am I talking to him
that way? Why am I not being his collaborator and
attuning to him and recognizing he's stressed? And that got better,
(18:53):
you know, and then there's going to be a million
other transitions, And so I think what I'm trying to
express is that, but as long as you have a
willing partner, the attunement can start pretty quickly, but it
doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't stay that way forever.
You have to be willing to say, oh, this is
(19:14):
a new thing, and I'm surprised by my own reaction,
and let me pause and let me kind of reattune
with this person again.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Such a realistic response, right, because like sometimes we hear
even with the concept of boundaries that you talk about
as well, and I loved how you warded the boundaries.
Where is my notes? You called it setting limits.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
With love, Setting limits with love.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Because sometimes people have this misconception of I said it
once and it needs to click for him for me,
and the way you just described it is a little
bit more graceful, a little bit more patient, a little
bit more curious. Says you're both adjusting and reflecting and
pivoting together.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, exactly. And if you're setting limits with love, you
canque que the other person into it when they've become
unattuned to you. So you can, you know, like, somebody
gets really stressed, and let's say they become activated and angry,
and you have limits, you're able to say, I love you,
(20:26):
I know you're stressed right now because I know you,
and I'm not hanging out with you while you're acting
like so I'm going to go in the other room.
Or I know that when you get in the car
and there's a lot of traffic, you get really pissed off,
and you still do that when you're stressed. So I
don't get in the car with you during rush hour,
(20:47):
like I either drive or we can leave afterwards. So
you're setting limits to help to help make sure that
you and the relationship aren't impacted by the stress. But
you don't have to do it in a harsh way.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I love that it's such a soft, graceful approach. You
mentioned something in the book that I hadn't read before.
I hadn't read before. And this is the difference between
the emotional versus the wise mind. Can you talk a little.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Bit about that. Yeah, So there's a concept in DBT therapy,
and I'm not a DBT therapist, but I love the
concept and I use it a lot when I'm working
with couples. DBT therapies for individuals, but I use it
with couples or this concept. So, we have a lot
(21:36):
of different parts of ourselves, right, And we have a
part of ourselves that is that makes decisions based off
of emotions and has perceptions based off of emotions. So
I'm angry right now, it must mean that you did
a bad thing to me. I feel angry, So now
I'm going to act on that. I'm going to yell
(21:58):
at you or something like that. And then we have
this other part of ourselves it's a wise mind, and
this part of ourselves is more like the thinking center.
So it's it's like, well, you know, I might have
a feeling, but I don't really look at that feeling.
I just look at my thoughts. And so regardless of
the feelings, the best decision for me to make is X,
(22:20):
Y and Z, and people often live in one or
the other, so some people will be more the person
who is like, well, that doesn't really make sense. We
should do it this way feelings don't matter, and the
other person will be like, well, no, like that makes
me sad or that makes me uncomfortable. I don't want
to do it that way. Really though, What we want
is to be able to notice our feelings and to
(22:44):
recognize that sensation is telling us something. Just like if
we have an ache in our toe, that sensation is
saying you stubbed your toe, you cut it, you need
to get a band aid and clean it. So you
want to notice your feelings. If you're saying I only
live in the rational mind all the time, then you're
cutting out a ton of information. So can you say
(23:07):
I feel angry right now? I know I feel angry.
That must be giving me information. I know I feel stressed, worried, sad,
and I also want to pause and think about what
I know in my mind. And so I'm angry at
my partner and I know they're having a hard time.
(23:28):
I have both of those things right. I'm panicked and
feel like the world is going to end. That's the
emotional part of myself, and the cognitive part of myself
knows I've been through something like this before and I
can probably figure it out. And so we want to
learn how do we balance those two things. Terry Reel
(23:51):
in his work he essentially uses these two things, but
he calls them the wise adult and the adaptive child
and the wounded child, right, and so he talks about
how how can you start to integrate these things, like
it's okay for that adaptive child to be there and
to say this scares me, or this this makes me
(24:14):
feel disrespected or angry, and my grown up mind knows
that it's not going to help me if I yell.
So I can be angry, but the wise part of
me knows if I yell right now, it's not going
to help the relationship. And the more you can work
on kind of living within both of those parts, the
(24:38):
better you're going to navigate situations, because because you're going
to use all of the important information instead of only
half of it.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I love that. And if we if their rupture does
take place, let's say we act out on the emotional
mind and we're getting angry and we say things that
we don't mean. I know, you talk about this in
your book. I want this to work. But for those
who happen to write that book, which I recommend you
to read, what can we do in that moment to repair?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, so you know, we all I'm very realistic. I've
worked with hundreds of couples, I have my own relationships.
What I say to people all the time is like,
you're gonna say the wrong thing, You're going to explode
in your own way. Some people explode outwardly, some people
(25:28):
explode inwardly by just kind of removing themselves. You're going
to it's just going to happen. And so when that
does happen, there's two there's two inflection points during that conversation.
There's the opportunity to repair, and then after there's also
the opportunity to repair. And so ideally, as things are
(25:51):
getting hot, we're working to keep them warm. Right, and
so it's like I notice that the temperature is going up,
my heart is racing. I just said something nasty, or
I see that my partner is shut down. That's my
cue that things have gotten hot. What can I do
that's warm? What I could do that's warm is I
(26:12):
could say anything that creates repair. So I could say,
you know what, I'm really sorry that we're yelling. Now,
I don't want us to do that. Let's try to
talk to each other differently. Warm could be I love you.
You know we're fighting, but while we're fighting, I just
want you to know I love you. It could be
(26:33):
just touching the other person's hand. It could be letting
them know you want to take a break. Hey, this
is not going where I wanted it to go. I
want to take a break. So anything that shows I'm safe,
I'm not a threat, and I recognize things are getting hot,
and I'm trying to be a warm person with you.
That can create repair in the moment. Now. Sometimes we
(26:57):
forget to do that. We can't access doing that because
our minds are over oversaturated with all of the stress hormones,
or we try to do it and the other person
doesn't accept it. That's all a possibility, and so in
those cases sometimes we'd repair afterwards. And the way we
repair afterwards is that you come back and you talk
(27:22):
about what happened, not what you were talking about. You
don't say, well, I want to go back and talk
about the argument we were having about your dad. You
say I want to talk about like what happened between us?
You know, I noticed that I got really loud with you,
and I noticed that I said mean things. And I
(27:44):
think that that happened because I felt kind of threatened,
feeling like you weren't going to speak to your dad
and I didn't think you had my back. But that
wasn't nice, and I wish I would have done this
differently the other person. You know, I noticed that I
didn't have your back. I got really defensive over my dad.
I don't know why I did that. And then being
able to talk about what are we going to do
(28:06):
to move forward, like next time this happens, what do
we want to do so that it doesn't get to
the point that it got again? And I call that
a hard conversation. So you're learning to like Holt, and
then you're tending to attachment needs first, I love you,
this isn't going anywhere, And then you're repairing I'm really sorry,
And then you're debriefing what happened, what the heck just
(28:28):
happened there, and doing that helps to repair that interaction,
to kind of take you back to a healthy baseline
with each other, so you're not starting from some sort
of deficit with each other.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Moving forward, so practical, so useful, Thank you so much.
Last question, towards the end of the book, you say
none of us are immune to the real world, and
if and the sooner we can accept that and drop
our entitlements, the sooner we can work alongside the people
we love to actually solve problems and move forward.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah. I'm sure that that's gotten some bad reactions.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
But but it's it's it's honest, right. The sooner we
can do that, the better it gets.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah. One of the hardest things in couples therapy is
that people will often feel entitled to a life that
doesn't exist, rather than accept the life that does. And
by accepting, I don't mean liking, you're not saying I
accept this because it's good and because it's okay. The
(29:42):
thing you're going through might not be okay. It might
be really really really bad and wrong and unjust whatever
it is, and it's real, And so how do you
learn to instead of saying I'm not going to be
okay until you change or your mother changes, or we
(30:05):
don't have this debt anymore or we don't how do
you instead say you know what I like wasn't really promised.
Nobody promised me an easy life. This is the thing
we're facing right now, and we can either be against
each other with the thing we're facing or we can
help each other with it. But imagining that one day
(30:28):
everything's going to be better overnight without that collaboration like
that might not get us anywhere. And with it's even
with basic things like I have a lot of people,
even myself, right, it's like this idea of well, it
shouldn't be this way. It shouldn't be this hard to
(30:48):
deal with our house, it shouldn't be this hard to
deal with our kids. It shouldn't I shouldn't have to
deal with this tax bill. It's ridiculous that. Sure, maybe
that's true and it does exist. So what do you
do with each other to help relieve the burden that's
placing on you, even if that just means that you're
(31:09):
kind of adapting together as supports for each other.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
And you share so many practical tools inside of the book,
which I highly recommend everyone to read over and over again,
because again, they're so practical, they're so I wouldn't say
they're simple, but they're not complicated. The way you broke
it down. It's not complicated. It might feel it in
that moment, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So thank you so much for writing this book for
the first one as well. I want this to work.
You again, share so many simple practical tools of connection,
of repair, of communication, conflict resolution, and all of these
are relational skills that we need to have if we
want to have a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thank you so much for having me on again. It
was so good to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It was so lovely to have you on. I'm going
to put the name of the book in the show notes.
Hi again, recommend everyone to buy both. And yeah, thank
you so much for sharing, creating content on social media
and for all that you do.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Thank you everyone for listening Speak soon. Thank you for
joining us this week on Minutes on Growth. If you
enjoyed today's episode, and make sure you never miss a
show by clicking the subscribe button now.
You're listening to them Minutes on Growth Podcast, the show
that brings you mindfully curated insights into relationships, spirituality, personal
development and everything in between with your hosts Tenas the
same Poor, Hi Soul friends, it's Tanasa the same point
and welcome back to another episode of the Minutes on
(00:26):
Growth Podcast. Today, we have a really special guest here
with us. She is rejoining us after five years Time Flies.
I'd like to welcome Elizabeth Earnshaw. You might know hers
list listens on Instagram, the author of I Want This
to Work Until Stressed to Us Part Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm so excited to have you on and to discuss
this book. We read it in our book club and
the girls and I loved it. I think, as I
mentioned to you before, you really do have a talent
for simplifying in complex relational concepts, and the book was
especially your second book. I think it touches on a
topic that we don't talk about as often, and we
(01:11):
don't even think about because it's like this invisible, the
invisible load, the stressors, the external stressors that we don't
realize is impacting our life and our relationships to the
degree that it is, So I'm curious what made you
talk about this and write about this.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So personal life experience. First years ago, we were just
talking about how the last time we interviewed was I
think we interviewed like right at the start of the pandemic,
like right at the beginning when things were pretty wild.
But the last time that I was on the podcast,
(01:51):
the world was going through a lot of stressors and
I was kind of feeling those things absolutely. But a
couple of years before, I had had a child, and
my husband and I had been arguing a lot, and
I was really upset with him frequently, and he was
really upset because I was upset with him. So he
was feeling really withdrawn and kind of like, well, you know,
what do I do here? How do I engage with
(02:14):
you if you're aways so angry? And I remember just
thinking what is wrong with me? I'm a couple's therapist,
you know. I was going into the office telling people like,
don't be so critical, be more gentle with each other,
and then I was going home and I was having
a hard time doing it, and so I started researching,
(02:34):
you know, like what's going on? Why does anybody else
feel this? Way after having a baby. Why is it
that so many couples break up in the first year.
I actually had a therapist at the time. I don't
even know if I mentioned this in the book that
she said this, but she kind of started trying to
maybe like convince me to not be in the relationship.
(02:56):
And I remember thinking, Oh, I wish she knew the
stat that after birth people get into lots of arguments
and that divorce is pretty common, but that if people wait,
it's not as common, you know, after the first year.
And so I started researching that, and what I came
across was information about mental load disparities and how common
(03:20):
it is when the baby comes. Then all of a sudden,
you start to really notice who's the one that's researching
and delegating and doing all that kind of invisible stuff.
I started being hyper focused on that for a little bit,
you know, and everything I was seeing in my own
couples with my husband, just like, let's talk about this,
let's try to reallocate it. Oh, I see mental load
(03:40):
with the couples I'm working with. But then I started
to notice that, yes, that needed to change absolutely, and
a lot of partners who are not taking on the
mental load are willing to change it, you know, they're
open once they hear about it. But that I was
seeing that even couples who didn't have that disparity, we're
(04:02):
still struggling. So they'd be like, we figured it out,
we've outsourced things, we've redelegated, we've gotten rid of stuff,
but like we're still like fighting all the time. What's
going on And what I started to come to in
my own life and with the couples I was working with,
is like they were still under a ton of stress.
(04:23):
So one piece of it was mental low disparity, but
they also were under financial distress. They were under they
were working sixty hours a week, they were caretaking and
in law. Just lots of different things were going on.
And so that's a very long, convoluted answer of why
I eventually wrote the book was because I was seeing
(04:44):
it everywhere and how devastating mismanaged stress was to relationships.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
So powerful because in the book you say, like, people
think it's the relationship issues, but in fact it's that
are stressing them out. But it's a collective stress that's
causing relationship challenges.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, So often people will come into the therapy room,
or even in my own marriage, like it must be
our relationship, you know, we're we just have a bad relationship,
and that's causing all my problems and all my unhappiness.
And certainly it does cause a lot of unhappiness. But
what it really boils down to with many of the
couples that I see as they come in and they'll
(05:30):
present the problem as being each other. So we argue,
he's not sensitive enough, she's a nag, this person's withdrawn,
this person it's always arguing with me. But then when
we get beneath it, what's causing a lot of those
behaviors and reactions is that each person is carrying a
(05:52):
lot of stress and this is playing out in the
way that they're able to communicate with each other and
connect with each other.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You mentioned that not everyone has the same stress response,
that people respond differently to it, and the more stress
you are, I'm quoting you, the more you lose your
ability to express your thoughts and feelings, show humor, solve problems,
and offer affection. How come we have different stress responses
and what are some of these different stress responses?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, so we all respond to stress differently and there's
like a multitude of reasons for that. Some of it
is personality style, So it might be nothing about you
other than your personality is that you're just more like, whatever,
it'll work out. And so maybe a big bill comes
in the mail and it doesn't mean anything to you
(06:43):
because of your personality, your family history, whatever it is.
You're just like, it's okay, it'll work out. And that
same bill, with the same amount of money in the bank,
could cause another person to see it and start to
have their heart race and every terrible thought in their mind.
You know, they're going to lose their home, they're not
going to be able to afford it. What do they do?
(07:05):
And then maybe their stress responses they become very argumentative
or panicked, and so we all have different responses, and
like I said, some of its personality. Some of it
has to do with trauma history. You know, maybe one
person in the relationship experienced some sort of acute trauma,
(07:25):
like something scary happened to them, and so their nervous
system is more easily triggered, or maybe they had some
chronic kind of relational trauma where nobody was ever there
for them, and so when something big stressful happens, they
feel like nobody's going to be there for them again.
It can also have to do with the relationship history itself.
So if you haven't managed it well together throughout the relationship,
(07:49):
then you see a big stressful thing come up, you're
going to think, well, my partner's not going to be
there for me, and now I don't know what to do.
And then in response to stressors, some people respond by
getting really activated. So they seem more panicked, or they
become aggravated agitated, they fight, they say things they don't mean,
or they want to talk about it all the time.
(08:11):
You know, we've got to talk about it right now.
We've got to figure it out. Other people become more
withdrawn and avoidant, and so that might be if we're
using the bill example, their partner who's activated says we
need to figure this out right now, and the other
person is like, I don't want to talk about it
right now, and then they go down in the basement
and they watch TV and they don't look at it again.
(08:32):
And then some people get frozen right and they just
shut down and they're not able to engage at all
with the people around them or on the topic. Ideally,
what happens when we feel stressed is that we recognize
it and we become collaborative. That's like where we want
to get to is that we're able to be Like
(08:54):
that mail that I just opened, that had that bill
really stresses me out. You know it's stresses me out
because you know me. You can you take it because
I know it doesn't stress you out? Can you go
look at the bill or can you talk me through it?
But we want to learn how to become collaborators. But unfortunately,
most people don't become collaborative when they're stressed. Most people
(09:18):
become combative.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That's so powerful. You you talk about you know pretty
much what you were saying, and then you you talk
about these four stress responses the venomous king Cobra, the
fearful dear, the apostlem and playing dead. How do they
tie into what you just shared?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah? So like king Kobra is the activated one. Right,
So when I see a couple who's under stress and
they're the Cobra, they're in session and their partner says
something like, I don't know what to do with you know,
are my aging mother. We're going to have to take
care of her and the partner who the cobra says
(10:00):
something like, I don't give an f about your mother.
You know that stress causes them to become like a
very venomous and so content criticism, anger, rage that comes
out as the reaction to stress. And again there's a
lot of reasons for that. It's not that the person
isn't a bad person necessarily, it's that they feel threatened,
(10:26):
and when they feel threatened, they're gonna snap. And then
you've got the fearful, the fearful deer, right, and that's
like they're just gonna run off. And so they're like
deer in the headlights at first, and you say to them,
you know, we really need to talk about how your
(10:47):
mother always kind of criticizes my parenting. We have said
some boundaries, and the other person's like, well, I don't
know what you want me to say about that, and
then let's just talk about it later. They won't go
back to it. They're kind of avoiding it. They're fleeing
from the situation. And then the person who plays dead.
(11:08):
When there's something stressful going on in the family, with finances,
with the kids, with anything stressful, a medical issue, they
are not involved at all, So it kind of gets
confused with that deer, where like there's some both of
them are in some ways avoidant, but the deer is
(11:30):
like I see it and I'm actively running away from it,
Like we'll talk about it next week. I know we
need to talk about it, but I don't want to
talk about it now. I'll deal with my mom next week,
next time, next time I'm at the office, I'll talk
to my boss. But the one that plays dead like
the possum, is somebody who just kind of completely disconnects.
(11:54):
And so in couples therapy, what I'll see as a
partner where they'll say, we've got a lot going on,
but like you just stay in bed all day, or
you know, I know work is stressful for you, but
when you come home, I really want us. I want
you to join us at dinner. And what you're doing
every night is you're just going straight to your office
(12:15):
and you're not engaging with anybody. And when we can
look at it through the lens of these are stress responses.
And I'm not saying that's one hundred percent of the time.
There's certainly relationships where a partner goes off to their
office because they don't care, and you know, they don't
want to be around the family. There's certainly times where
somebody is vitriolic and cobra like because they're abusive. There's
(12:39):
certainly times where somebody's avoidant because they want to be
childlike and they don't want to take control of their lives.
And if you reflect and you think we've got a
lot going on, I know my partner better than that,
and I know that this is like not their norm.
This is odd that my partner is just disappearing, This
(12:59):
is odd that they're so angry all the time. Then
what you want to look at is what's going on
that's causing this experience in life that we're having to
feel so threatening because they're responding as if they're threatened
right now.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I love that you made that distinction, and I think
that's so powerful of like, is this the norm? Is
this how they usually act? Or is this just is
there something else that has infiltrated the relationship that we
didn't have in the past.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, And is there some good faith assessment I can
make of this? First? You know, I think in our
world and I'm sure that you notice this too. The
thing the advice that gets the most attention is the
bad faith advice. You know, like they're probably they're a jerk,
or if you know this person's not talking to you,
(13:55):
it's because they don't love you or something like they're
like any of these like non nuanced things. But if
you're in a committed long term relationship, you want to
try to lean into first doesn't mean forever. What's like
the best faith assessment I can make of my partner's
behavior right now? And you know, if I came home
(14:15):
and they like bit my head off because of the
way I came in, is that because they're a jerk?
Or is there something going on? You know? And when
you do that, you become better collaborators and you actually
get those you start to see those behaviors happen less.
You know, like I become the Cobra. I've become very like,
(14:36):
get out of my space. I need everybody to listen
to me. I'm irritated, I'm activated. And as soon as
my husband sees it, you know, he's able to be
my collaborator instead of the person who goes against me.
And so if I walk in the door and I'm
all grumpy, he says, to me, are you okay or
(14:57):
did something happen today? You know I'm able to be like, yeah, sorry,
it's not you guys like overwhelmed about this email I
just got, rather than if we look at it through
the bad faith lens, somebody walks in the door and
they seem groucy, and we say, what's your problem again?
Why are you always bringing this attitude into the house?
(15:17):
And that only adds more stress and more threatening feelings
into the relationship and into that person. I love that.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
I mean, you're a Gotmen trained therapist and one of
the teachings is to always give your partner the benefit
of the doubt.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
It's like an indicator of a strong relationship. But in
the book, and you mentioned this earlier on, there were
there was that those challenges that you and your husband
were having after the first child. How long did it
take in your own marriage for you both to be
emotionally attuned with one another to be able to pick
(15:58):
up on those on those cue.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I think that's such a good question because the reality
is it it's like a journey always because life is
always changing. I tell couples a lot that you're gonna
you're going to face your biggest difficulties during transition points
because they are things you've never experienced. So when you're
(16:21):
the first baby, when you move, when you buy a
house together, when somebody gets a new job, somebody gets
more money than the other person gets, somebody dies, you know,
a parent dies, or a best friend. Those are the
places where you're going to struggle because it's the first
time you've experienced it as individuals, and then it's the
(16:43):
first time you've experienced it as a couple, and so
you're always going to have to learn how to reattune right, Like,
Andrew doesn't know who I am yet, I don't even
necessarily know who I am yet when I'm anemester, I've
never been one before. So when our kids go off
(17:05):
to college, we're going to have to learn to reattune
to each other again, and he that might upset me
or upset him, and we'll have to deal with that stress.
So my answer to the question is that we were
able to through many conversations, and it's not always easy.
It's not like the first time I sat down with
him and said, can I tell you about the mental load?
(17:27):
It didn't change the next day, But we had the conversation,
he was able to take it in. And then I
think there was like kind of forgetting about the conversation
and or him doing a great job, but me forgetting
to see that he was doing a great job. And
so it takes a little bit of time to be like,
oh wait, this is different and I am responding to
(17:49):
this person differently and they are responding to me differently.
And so that was like, you know, several months of that,
just back and forth like is this changing, I'm still
frustrated with you? Well why are you frustrated with me?
I feel like I've done something to change it, and
then me being like, yeah, I guess you have. I
don't know why I'm frustrated with you and getting really
(18:10):
good at that, and then you know, we then COVID happened,
and it's like that's a new thing. Okay, Well, how
does he react when he's stressed with work? How do
I learn to attune with that? Probably at first when
he actually I know, when he showed that he was
stressed at work, I would get frustrated with him and
I would be like, you know what, it's all hard
(18:33):
right now? Why are you grouchy? We need to just
like get it together. And then very quickly I was like, wait,
he's stressed because the world is like collapsing right now.
It's worried about work. Why am I talking to him
that way? Why am I not being his collaborator and
attuning to him and recognizing he's stressed? And that got better,
(18:53):
you know, and then there's going to be a million
other transitions, And so I think what I'm trying to
express is that, but as long as you have a
willing partner, the attunement can start pretty quickly, but it
doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't stay that way forever.
You have to be willing to say, oh, this is
(19:14):
a new thing, and I'm surprised by my own reaction,
and let me pause and let me kind of reattune
with this person again.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Such a realistic response, right, because like sometimes we hear
even with the concept of boundaries that you talk about
as well, and I loved how you warded the boundaries.
Where is my notes? You called it setting limits.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
With love, Setting limits with love.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Because sometimes people have this misconception of I said it
once and it needs to click for him for me,
and the way you just described it is a little
bit more graceful, a little bit more patient, a little
bit more curious. Says you're both adjusting and reflecting and
pivoting together.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, exactly. And if you're setting limits with love, you
canque que the other person into it when they've become
unattuned to you. So you can, you know, like, somebody
gets really stressed, and let's say they become activated and angry,
and you have limits, you're able to say, I love you,
(20:26):
I know you're stressed right now because I know you,
and I'm not hanging out with you while you're acting
like so I'm going to go in the other room.
Or I know that when you get in the car
and there's a lot of traffic, you get really pissed off,
and you still do that when you're stressed. So I
don't get in the car with you during rush hour,
(20:47):
like I either drive or we can leave afterwards. So
you're setting limits to help to help make sure that
you and the relationship aren't impacted by the stress. But
you don't have to do it in a harsh way.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
I love that it's such a soft, graceful approach. You
mentioned something in the book that I hadn't read before.
I hadn't read before. And this is the difference between
the emotional versus the wise mind. Can you talk a little.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Bit about that. Yeah, So there's a concept in DBT therapy,
and I'm not a DBT therapist, but I love the
concept and I use it a lot when I'm working
with couples. DBT therapies for individuals, but I use it
with couples or this concept. So, we have a lot
(21:36):
of different parts of ourselves, right, And we have a
part of ourselves that is that makes decisions based off
of emotions and has perceptions based off of emotions. So
I'm angry right now, it must mean that you did
a bad thing to me. I feel angry, So now
I'm going to act on that. I'm going to yell
(21:58):
at you or something like that. And then we have
this other part of ourselves it's a wise mind, and
this part of ourselves is more like the thinking center.
So it's it's like, well, you know, I might have
a feeling, but I don't really look at that feeling.
I just look at my thoughts. And so regardless of
the feelings, the best decision for me to make is X,
(22:20):
Y and Z, and people often live in one or
the other, so some people will be more the person
who is like, well, that doesn't really make sense. We
should do it this way feelings don't matter, and the
other person will be like, well, no, like that makes
me sad or that makes me uncomfortable. I don't want
to do it that way. Really though, What we want
is to be able to notice our feelings and to
(22:44):
recognize that sensation is telling us something. Just like if
we have an ache in our toe, that sensation is
saying you stubbed your toe, you cut it, you need
to get a band aid and clean it. So you
want to notice your feelings. If you're saying I only
live in the rational mind all the time, then you're
cutting out a ton of information. So can you say
(23:07):
I feel angry right now? I know I feel angry.
That must be giving me information. I know I feel stressed, worried, sad,
and I also want to pause and think about what
I know in my mind. And so I'm angry at
my partner and I know they're having a hard time.
(23:28):
I have both of those things right. I'm panicked and
feel like the world is going to end. That's the
emotional part of myself, and the cognitive part of myself
knows I've been through something like this before and I
can probably figure it out. And so we want to
learn how do we balance those two things. Terry Reel
(23:51):
in his work he essentially uses these two things, but
he calls them the wise adult and the adaptive child
and the wounded child, right, and so he talks about
how how can you start to integrate these things, like
it's okay for that adaptive child to be there and
to say this scares me, or this this makes me
(24:14):
feel disrespected or angry, and my grown up mind knows
that it's not going to help me if I yell.
So I can be angry, but the wise part of
me knows if I yell right now, it's not going
to help the relationship. And the more you can work
on kind of living within both of those parts, the
(24:38):
better you're going to navigate situations, because because you're going
to use all of the important information instead of only
half of it.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I love that. And if we if their rupture does
take place, let's say we act out on the emotional
mind and we're getting angry and we say things that
we don't mean. I know, you talk about this in
your book. I want this to work. But for those
who happen to write that book, which I recommend you
to read, what can we do in that moment to repair?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, so you know, we all I'm very realistic. I've
worked with hundreds of couples, I have my own relationships.
What I say to people all the time is like,
you're gonna say the wrong thing, You're going to explode
in your own way. Some people explode outwardly, some people
(25:28):
explode inwardly by just kind of removing themselves. You're going
to it's just going to happen. And so when that
does happen, there's two there's two inflection points during that conversation.
There's the opportunity to repair, and then after there's also
the opportunity to repair. And so ideally, as things are
(25:51):
getting hot, we're working to keep them warm. Right, and
so it's like I notice that the temperature is going up,
my heart is racing. I just said something nasty, or
I see that my partner is shut down. That's my
cue that things have gotten hot. What can I do
that's warm? What I could do that's warm is I
(26:12):
could say anything that creates repair. So I could say,
you know what, I'm really sorry that we're yelling. Now,
I don't want us to do that. Let's try to
talk to each other differently. Warm could be I love you.
You know we're fighting, but while we're fighting, I just
want you to know I love you. It could be
(26:33):
just touching the other person's hand. It could be letting
them know you want to take a break. Hey, this
is not going where I wanted it to go. I
want to take a break. So anything that shows I'm safe,
I'm not a threat, and I recognize things are getting hot,
and I'm trying to be a warm person with you.
That can create repair in the moment. Now. Sometimes we
(26:57):
forget to do that. We can't access doing that because
our minds are over oversaturated with all of the stress hormones,
or we try to do it and the other person
doesn't accept it. That's all a possibility, and so in
those cases sometimes we'd repair afterwards. And the way we
repair afterwards is that you come back and you talk
(27:22):
about what happened, not what you were talking about. You
don't say, well, I want to go back and talk
about the argument we were having about your dad. You
say I want to talk about like what happened between us?
You know, I noticed that I got really loud with you,
and I noticed that I said mean things. And I
(27:44):
think that that happened because I felt kind of threatened,
feeling like you weren't going to speak to your dad
and I didn't think you had my back. But that
wasn't nice, and I wish I would have done this
differently the other person. You know, I noticed that I
didn't have your back. I got really defensive over my dad.
I don't know why I did that. And then being
able to talk about what are we going to do
(28:06):
to move forward, like next time this happens, what do
we want to do so that it doesn't get to
the point that it got again? And I call that
a hard conversation. So you're learning to like Holt, and
then you're tending to attachment needs first, I love you,
this isn't going anywhere, And then you're repairing I'm really sorry,
And then you're debriefing what happened, what the heck just
(28:28):
happened there, and doing that helps to repair that interaction,
to kind of take you back to a healthy baseline
with each other, so you're not starting from some sort
of deficit with each other.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Moving forward, so practical, so useful, Thank you so much.
Last question, towards the end of the book, you say
none of us are immune to the real world, and
if and the sooner we can accept that and drop
our entitlements, the sooner we can work alongside the people
we love to actually solve problems and move forward.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah. I'm sure that that's gotten some bad reactions.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
But but it's it's it's honest, right. The sooner we
can do that, the better it gets.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah. One of the hardest things in couples therapy is
that people will often feel entitled to a life that
doesn't exist, rather than accept the life that does. And
by accepting, I don't mean liking, you're not saying I
accept this because it's good and because it's okay. The
(29:42):
thing you're going through might not be okay. It might
be really really really bad and wrong and unjust whatever
it is, and it's real, And so how do you
learn to instead of saying I'm not going to be
okay until you change or your mother changes, or we
(30:05):
don't have this debt anymore or we don't how do
you instead say you know what I like wasn't really promised.
Nobody promised me an easy life. This is the thing
we're facing right now, and we can either be against
each other with the thing we're facing or we can
help each other with it. But imagining that one day
(30:28):
everything's going to be better overnight without that collaboration like
that might not get us anywhere. And with it's even
with basic things like I have a lot of people,
even myself, right, it's like this idea of well, it
shouldn't be this way. It shouldn't be this hard to
(30:48):
deal with our house, it shouldn't be this hard to
deal with our kids. It shouldn't I shouldn't have to
deal with this tax bill. It's ridiculous that. Sure, maybe
that's true and it does exist. So what do you
do with each other to help relieve the burden that's
placing on you, even if that just means that you're
(31:09):
kind of adapting together as supports for each other.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
And you share so many practical tools inside of the book,
which I highly recommend everyone to read over and over again,
because again, they're so practical, they're so I wouldn't say
they're simple, but they're not complicated. The way you broke
it down. It's not complicated. It might feel it in
that moment, but it's not.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So thank you so much for writing this book for
the first one as well. I want this to work.
You again, share so many simple practical tools of connection,
of repair, of communication, conflict resolution, and all of these
are relational skills that we need to have if we
want to have a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thank you so much for having me on again. It
was so good to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It was so lovely to have you on. I'm going
to put the name of the book in the show notes.
Hi again, recommend everyone to buy both. And yeah, thank
you so much for sharing, creating content on social media
and for all that you do.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Thank you everyone for listening Speak soon. Thank you for
joining us this week on Minutes on Growth. If you
enjoyed today's episode, and make sure you never miss a
show by clicking the subscribe button now.
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