July 29, 2025 • 53 mins
In this 53 minute episode, I sit with Katherine Fabrizio, psychotherapist and author of The Good Daughter Syndrome, to explore the complex dynamics between empathetic daughters and difficult mothers.
We dive into what the Good Daughter Syndrome is, how generational trauma and cultural factors shape these relationships, and the challenges of setting boundaries with emotionally immature or narcissistic mothers.
Katherine discusses the roles of guilt, identity, and healing in breaking these cycles, offering compassionate insights and practical advice for reclaiming autonomy while navigating family ties.
This episode provides hope, understanding, and strategies for anyone seeking to build healthier emotional lives despite difficult maternal relationships.
To connect with Katherine: https://daughtersrising.info
♾ In a fast-paced world like the one we live in, time is one of our most important assets. For a few minutes every episode, I, Tannaz Hosseinpour, will be discussing topics that aim to enhance the quality of your life, by helping you feel empowered to take inspired action on your personal growth journey.
Connect with me for daily insights:
Facebook
Instagram
TikTok
To sign up to the upcoming Tuscany retreat from August 18-23, click here
More resources available on www.minutesongrowth.com
This podcast is for educational purposes only. The host claims no responsibility to any person or entity for any liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly as a result of the use, application, or interpretation of the information presented herein.
We dive into what the Good Daughter Syndrome is, how generational trauma and cultural factors shape these relationships, and the challenges of setting boundaries with emotionally immature or narcissistic mothers.
Katherine discusses the roles of guilt, identity, and healing in breaking these cycles, offering compassionate insights and practical advice for reclaiming autonomy while navigating family ties.
This episode provides hope, understanding, and strategies for anyone seeking to build healthier emotional lives despite difficult maternal relationships.
To connect with Katherine: https://daughtersrising.info
♾ In a fast-paced world like the one we live in, time is one of our most important assets. For a few minutes every episode, I, Tannaz Hosseinpour, will be discussing topics that aim to enhance the quality of your life, by helping you feel empowered to take inspired action on your personal growth journey.
Connect with me for daily insights:
TikTok
To sign up to the upcoming Tuscany retreat from August 18-23, click here
More resources available on www.minutesongrowth.com
This podcast is for educational purposes only. The host claims no responsibility to any person or entity for any liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly as a result of the use, application, or interpretation of the information presented herein.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You're listening to the Minutes on Growth Podcast, the show
that brings you mindfully curated insights into relationships, spirituality, personal
development and everything in between with your hosts Tenas.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
The same Poor.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hi, so friends, it's Tanasa the same port and welcome
back to another episode of the Minutes on Growth Podcast.
Today we have a very special guest with us, and
I am sure you are going to love this topic.
We have Catherine Fabrizia with us. She is a psychotherapist
and author of The Good Daughters Syndrome, help for empathetic
(00:42):
daughters of narcissistic, borderline or difficult mothers trapped in the
role of the good daughter. Wow, what a powerful title.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Welcome Katherine, Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I am so excited to dive into this conversation because
it's one that I see both you know, my friends
and the clients that I work with struggle with this,
this concept of generational trauma and this exactly as you
talk about, this like intersection of the good girl conditioning
(01:21):
that many of us have experienced. So let's let's dive
right and if you're comfortable, what is the good girl
good daughter syndrome?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'll like the slip because it's relevant. So the quickest
way I can describe it. So, when you take an empathetic, sensitive,
attuned daughter who's raised by a mother who's described as difficult,
she could be narcissistic, borderline, or just high in those traits,
(01:55):
or because of even cultural reasons, she's difficult, and throughout
development and over time when the daughter adjusts and adapts
to mom's emotional immaturity, insecurity, dysregulation. By the time she's
(02:16):
an adult and is relating as an adult to an adult,
she's working so hard to try and please a mom
who can't be pleased. She's emotionally has her mother at
the center of our emotional life. Maybe the mom's needy, intrusive,
(02:38):
or clingy. So that kind of last phase of development
when it's really when it's the crack show and it's
really time to take your leave, become your own woman,
make your decisions yourself. Mom is still clinging and you
are still unconsciously and consciously taking on the more subservient
(03:04):
role and therapist, surrogate or best friend, so you can
you can't like launch into your own life with this
kind of ball and chain or leash pulling you back.
And this is spectrum. People might have an intergenerational wounding
(03:25):
around say one issue, or if the mom is pretty
high on those narcissistic or borderline traits, then it's probably
her whole personality that the daughter has adapted to. And
it's well, I can say more, but that's that's kind
of a good overview. That's a lot, but it's a dynamic.
(03:47):
It's not totally mom or totally the daughter, but it's
how you have bonded throughout your development that shows itself
in adulthood differently.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Wow, I love that when you were saying, like narcissistic
trades and borderline traits and you know that being a spectrum,
But you also said, like the difficult mothers who are
emotionally immature, who are disregulated. Can we talk about that
because often it's not talked about as often the importance
of emotional maturity and nervousness and regulation in being a
(04:24):
parent in motherhood.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Mm hmmm. I think what's asked of women is incredibly difficult.
You know, we're supposed to attach, sacrifice, put our own
needs aside, and then we're supposed to let go, you know.
I mean it's it's so difficult what we ask of ourselves,
(04:51):
and so the degree to which we have sure footing
when we have children, that's going to be test, I say,
like the paraneum and childbirth is going to be tested
with all these psychological tasks. So a mom who is
qualifies for a personality disorder, which is as you know,
(05:14):
as a psychotherapist, you get a diagnosis if something's persistent
and pervasive, like throughout time and throughout the personality. I
can talk about that later, because some moms are really difficult,
very unlikely to change, and then other moms. I mean,
the world is changing so fast, and we're raising our
(05:35):
daughters to be empowered and to step into their own
and so as moms, if we've never done that, or
we're coming out of a very patriarchal culture or what's
been expected of us is so different, it can be
I think there's this, you know, see change, and so
(05:57):
it's kind of on a sociological spectrum, we're gonna see
cracks and mothers struggling. So you've got kind of in
one camp, somebody who's truly personality disordered and they've been
acting a certain way with their children for a long time,
and another way of saying that, I mean, we'd give
somebody the diagnosis of narcissism or borderline, but what we
(06:21):
observe is emotional immaturity, you know, a rigidity. A mom
who needs to be who's narcissistic, needs to be superior,
she needs to be right all the time, and on
the more pathological end of the spectrum, she might need
to defeat her daughter. But at the same time, we
(06:43):
could have say if we weren't raised to speak our mind,
or say if we sacrificed our education and never went
to work, if we wanted to go to work, and
then the daughter comes up and she has all these advantages.
You know, it might not be unhealthy to be envious.
Hopefully we deal with that, But if it's unconscious, if
(07:06):
you don't even know you're envious and you act out,
then you're gonna be maybe given your daughter mixed messages
like cheering are on on the one hand, and making
snide comments that just slip out of your mouth must
be nice. You know your husband lets you stay home,
or you can imagine. Like so, I think what we
(07:29):
ask of women and mothers is incredibly difficult, and some
daughters who really have terrible mothers, don't like what I
have to say when I when I advocate somewhat for
the moms, and then there's another camp like, oh, you're
too rough on moms. But I have grown daughters myself,
(07:52):
and I haven't done everything perfectly, not by a long stretch,
but I kind of I understand the struggle from both sides.
I mean, my unique struggle, it's not everybody's. And then
seeing women for thirty five years come into psychotherapy, you know,
I know my story. But then variations on this theme
(08:15):
and there is a spectrum of course life with so
many things.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Wow, I love that because it as you were speaking,
it kind of gave me the energy of hope that
you know, when we're acting out and unconscious behaviors, right,
and books like this come out and we start to
realize and we become conscious of maybe I have been
(08:42):
doing this, Maybe I have been intrusive, Maybe I have
been needy and I wasn't aware of it before. That
creates space for change. And I'm wondering, and you know,
over thirty five years of clinical practice, how common is
it for moms to have this awareness and to want
(09:04):
to shift? Is it something that's done on their own,
or is it a trigger by the daughter, like who
breaks free or who kind of sparks the change first.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Oh, that's that's a great question. Let me start by saying,
I think this is interesting. When I first started off
in practice, people would come to me and they would
present with maybe they had had a bad breakup, or
they had been attracted to, say, a narcissist, so that
(09:35):
would be their first level of awareness. Back when I started,
nobody even used the word boundaries. Boundaries weren't a thing,
if you can imagine. So then you have the cultural
overlay of your mom's your best friend, nobody loves you
like your mother. So this was so taboo. So I
saw it shift for thirty five years, and it still
(09:58):
is terribly hard. People will tell me all the time
I went to see my first therapist, she said my
mother might be narcissistic, and I quit that therapist. Now
ten years later, I'm coming back. I think it's true.
It's really hard to face. So I mostly see the daughters,
and the daughters are in pain, and because of this
(10:21):
lifting awareness, they realize that something's something's wrong. I would
say it varies. Some relationships are able to be salvaged,
and they can grow, the moms can adapt, and the
daughters can have maybe even a greater understanding of where
the mom's coming from. And then sadly, there are relationships
(10:47):
where a daughter just it's too toxic, she has to
go no contact. I know that phrase is very much
in the vernacular, and I use it, and I have
clients and support them who have gone no contact. But
I like to say, maybe it's more accurate to say
the relationship that I have now with you mom is
(11:09):
not working, you know, to just start in them now
it's not working for me, and I can say more
about this, but and then you can go about testing
how much flexibility there is. Maybe mom's is totally unaware,
and I know for myself, but the body positivity, I
(11:32):
would say to my daughters, oh you look, you know,
you look so slim in that outfit, and they let
me know really fast, my body is not up for comment.
And it's stung. You know, I'm not gonna lie. It
was like, oh, I had been, you know, set back,
And then I thought about it and I realized that's
(11:52):
so true, and how that would have given me so
much relief in my you know, years. If my mom
didn't even think it was. It was always a compliment
if she said, oh, you look like you've lost weight,
or you know, that was always on the plus side,
or oh you should really it's way. So these things
are in flox, and I think we're getting better. It's
(12:15):
it's hard. Somebody has a true personality disorder and their
defenses are so rigid they're probably just going to go
on the offense and they're not going to be able
to flix with you. But the facts of that, if you.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Like, I love that, like the nuanced approach, like it's
not a one size fits all, it's not black or white,
like there's there's so much that goes into it. And
as you were sharing that that experience between you and
your daughters, and you know the concept of boundaries and
how it's it's a relatively new concept that we're talking about.
(13:00):
Especially you know, I always say, like certain uh psycholog
like psychological comments or concepts, I would say, it takes
a while for them to even translate to other cultures,
like boundaries, and my opinion is a topic that's been
(13:20):
talked about individualistic cultures for a while, but for collectivists
it's still a relatively taboo concept because of the degree
of interconnectedness between family members and you know, to the
level of enmeshment.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So this.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I want to know how culture plays a role into
setting these boundaries with difficult mothers, and how it would
look different in an individualistic culture family versus a collectivist one.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Mm. Yeah, So if your family prizes entrepreneurship, going off
on your own, having your own mind, and following your
own path, you're going to pick that up as a
little kid, that those messages are going to be sent. However,
like my ex in laws were immigrants from Italy and
(14:15):
they had they had a lot of things worked out.
I can tell you they had very tight familial connections
and because their experience, mother and father in law came
over here and they just had each other, you know,
so married to a Jewish husband and know when when
(14:36):
you've been in the minority, you just have each other.
And there's I understand that there's kind of and it
can't even be a distrust towards the more progressive or
western culture. So I get that. Also, I would say
the more patriarchal a culture is, and that the more
(15:00):
the men have held the power, so women have a
need for power. We didn't like, we don't just not
have a need for it, And so sometimes they are
given the daughters, Well, you can't have power out in
the world, but you have power in the family, and
you have power over the daughters and daughters in law.
(15:21):
So somebody who is say, culturally hungry for power, it's
just going It's just physics. It's just gonna trickle down.
And if it's sanctioned by the culture, it's not only
like this is your only avenue, but it's sanctioned. When
you try and do something different, you're gonna have generational
(15:46):
ripples of resistance that aren't even conscious conscious though probably
in your DNA with epigenetics, you know, it's an incredibly
difficult So I think so that's m M.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It's interesting because I was thinking about myself and how
you know, I come from a Persian background, and there's
certain cultural expectations and this need for putting like my
family's needs first and self sacrificing is so deeply embedded
(16:30):
into my belief system that I want to be a
good daughter. I want to be a good daughter. It's
like I crave to be a good daughter because it
also means that all the sacrifices that my parents made
for me immigrating it didn't go to waste. And so
(16:51):
when I am setting certain boundaries, I feel tremendous amount
of guilt. And can we talk about that guilt?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, that's the number one emotion that people feel a lot.
To say about guilt one way, just on a physiological level,
to think about it. So we're biologically programmed to bond
with our moms because we know we won't get fed,
(17:25):
we won't get shelter, we won't survive. So I call
our survival brain says we've got to make it work
with this one person. So they're going to give us
all these things we need to survive. So you think
about that happens pre verbally. That happens before language even starts,
(17:48):
So it gets woven in implicit implicit implicit. If I'm say,
if I get upset and mom's just regulated, it's chaos,
So I'm gonna shrink. I'm gonna keep myself small if
I do something rude, and all this stuff is you know,
convey by looks and shoulder shrugs, and men don't even
(18:09):
get it. I mean we get it in nanana. Second,
I could tell if my mother was okay and okay
with me by the tone of her voice on a
phone call. Three words, I knew where the conversation was
headed anyway. So we pick up all these things unconsciously.
So then when we go to make a change, even
a small change, the feeling that comes in is guilt
(18:33):
or I'm bad, good, bad.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
One thing that I suggest is that you mindfully become
aware guilt is a condition response. It's a biological sensation
before it's a thought. So if you can put a
pause in, you know, witness yourself. Oh there's my stomach clenching,
(19:01):
Here come the thoughts, you know, or feel shamed. That's
a very common response, being more extreme than guilt. But
extreme guilt can feel like shame, like I'm bad, I'm
in trouble. I'm five years old, and I'm gonna get
hit or sent to my room or worse, disapproved of.
And then the person I'm attached to and love more
(19:23):
than anything else in this world is not going to
be happy with me. So that's one aspect, and there's
some somatic things we can do with that. Do like
just put a pause, Wait a minute, I'm feeling guilty.
But am I guilty of everything my head's telling me.
(19:44):
I would say, yes, I am guilty of disrupting a pattern.
How are you going to break cycles? If you have
to be willing to have some discomfort and if anybody,
I think he tells you there's like a straight and
we can go without discomfort, and you know, just follow
these five easy steps and you won't feel any guilt. Ah,
(20:07):
that's that's for the birds. So the first thing is
you're gonna feel it in your body because this has
been conditioned perhaps through generations. And it's interesting parents who
came here from some other place, they had to disappoint
some people, right, they left some people behind, so and
that's a whole other interesting kettle of fish. So they
(20:28):
may that's maybe why where you get the mixed message.
You know, they're applauding you at the same time, don't
forget us because maybe we had to break away and
you think about when we sailed over here from other
countries and maybe people never saw their families again, which
is in our DNA. So this feeling, oh, disloyalty and
(20:50):
betrayal on so many levels. So we have the biological
mandate to be loyal to bond. And however, as in nature,
we also have the mandate to differentiate, which you tell
(21:10):
you know, you talk to your relatives and they understand this, right,
they may they broke away at some at some point,
even if they've kept all the you know, a lot
of the things, but we do I think too deeply.
Is particularly for the good daughters to deeply understand that
(21:32):
you are aligning with a force of nature that is
good and healthy and necessary. I think that's why when
people just get mad and they blow up, then sometimes
it's needed. I'm done with you, mom, I'm going to
no contact. That's the last time. It's hard to sustain
(21:54):
that activated state. But and I know, for me, I
had my lineage was really psychotherapist, and I had a
mentor who was my mother's age, and she told didn't
tell me, but she supported me in my differentiation. And
so I aligned with somebody older and wiser and who
(22:16):
I saw, as you know, a voice in the field.
So this could be a religious authority, or a female mentor,
or someone who you admire. But I think it's it's
so important that you come to terms with these These
(22:37):
changes are good and they're healthy, and you're altering cycles
that you were then going to pass down whether or
not you have children. But you're going to be a
force in the world for good, I think for good daughters.
Now some people are rebels. There's just like, the hell
(22:57):
with you. I've never felt favored by you. Guys. You know,
I want to go off and do my own thing.
That's not who I wrote the book for. Understand that adaptation,
but it's those of us. It sounds like you're You're like,
you want to be good. You you have a strong
sense of justice, you want to do good in the world,
(23:21):
and you have Yeah. So it's it's a cognitive thing,
it's an educational thing, it's a bodily thing. And and
then it's practice. It's like resistance training. You have to
practice that muscle and you get better at it and
(23:42):
you can tolerate the discomfort, you know, little by little,
take on a little more.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
M I'm curious what makes a mother difficult? Besides what
we talked about. We've talked about this neediness, We've talked
about dysregulation, so emotionally immature, what else makes a mother
(24:11):
mother difficult?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So to just go in casual terms, she has no boundaries,
and she certainly doesn't respect yours. It's it's like she
doesn't see any value in that. Maybe she gives unwanted advice.
Maybe she has to be right all the time, she
can never give it to you. Maybe she can't apologize
(24:39):
without a yes, but you or I meant x so,
And so she's intrusive, bullying, plainy, needy, critical. So that
kind of paints a picture. I guess underneath it we
see a REGI. We all can be plainy, needy, critical,
(25:05):
But I guess it's really good. That variable is that
there's little, if no repair ability to repair, which takes humility.
It takes ownership on the mom's part, humility on the
mom's part, a willingness to be vulnerable to think, well,
(25:32):
maybe I do need to change. And we can break
it down into how narcissistic a borderline moms have trouble
with all this in terms of narcissistic mom for need,
So narcissist, do you want to go into that a
little bit?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Please?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Go? Okay? So a narcissist comes from a place of deficit,
we know of that of self love, loathing, and they
feel worthless inside. What you see is the defense to that.
In other words, I call it like armed guards around
the sense of self, so or another way to think
about it. They don't They didn't get the feeling when
(26:14):
they were little that just through existence brought their parents joy.
We all deserve that, we all need that. Some people
don't get it. So it's like they go around with
this cup that needs to be filled, and they find
out if I perform, if I may be a good daughter,
if I make straight a's or good daughter, so if
(26:40):
I'm braggadocius, if I call attention to myself, all this
and so, but that never really it never really seeps
into their sense of self, and so they need it
like a drug supply. So along comes a daughter. She
adores you. And if a mother is has a deficit
in this, she's going to be terrified of not being relevant,
(27:03):
say when her daughter grows up. So she has to
be give that unwanted advice, criticize, I'm going to fix
you on, make you better. She may unlike men so
much appropriate like your success is my success, you know.
And by the way, I'm terrified of your failures, so
you cannot fail. That's the other thing, because she herself
(27:24):
is terrified of her own failures. So that's narcissism. Borderline
mom's main wound is abandonment. That's how that kind of
gets set set into motion. So in a daughter's normal
differentiation individuation, you know, and this comes from the twos,
(27:46):
I mean it comes from early on. If the mom's
really threatened by that, she's going to send signals I
can't tolerate when you pull away from me, I can't tolerate.
And this is going to happen throughout development. It's when
that daughter becomes an adolescent and wants to have her
own taste in music, her own friends, has secrets, you know,
(28:07):
with her best girlfriend, that's usually attention because mom's losing
you and losing her relevance. But I like to say
when it goes from pretension to full on armageddon, you
know that many times is a narcissistic or borderline mom
who feels very threatened by the daughters pulling away. So
(28:32):
and sometimes a good daughter adaptation will be well, I
just won't pull away. I'll become so good and I
will make straight a's. I will never do anything bad
to cause you pain or upset. And then she goes underground,
and that's a population who may have cutting or eating disorders,
(28:57):
or our real sense of imposter syndrome. Her performative self
won't be integrated with who she knows herself to be
on a deep level because she was never She could
never afford to act out to rebell in any way.
You know. Even choosing your own music is a form
of it's a form of differentiation. But if your mom's
(29:19):
really threatened by it, what are you becoming? Then the
rebel will do it anyway, and kind of she's off
to the races from that point on.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The wedding is another like these are flashpoints looking through
the lens of differentiation, separation. How the mom responds and
again there's usually tension. You know, is the wedding and
reflection on mom's status or is it truly? Was it
(29:54):
truly your wedding? Birth of the first child is another
grandchild as another These are touch points or kind of
tests the mom's ability to integrate this new reality as
daughter becomes her own person. Anyway, that's a whole lot
(30:15):
to come.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Wow, I love it. I love all the insights you're
sharing with us. So okay, So now let's say the child,
the daughter, the good daughter, is aware that something needs
to change, maybe as you mentioned, her holding on and
continuing to be in that state as maybe manifesting in
(30:37):
physical illnesses. I know there's a lot of research on
like autoimmune diseases as a response to that holding on
to the space. That's like I'm constantly walking on eggshells.
This like constantly in survival mode to make sure I don't,
you know, piss Mom off or make her mad or
(30:58):
disappoint her. As you said that the fear of disappointment
is a huge one. Let's say we're ready to make
a change. How can we set boundaries? Is there like
mistakes that might you've seen happen when setting boundaries? You know,
how can we set into boundaries where we can kind
(31:19):
of be myself. I'm going to reclaim my autonomy, but
I also want to preserve that relationship and that family time.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Mm hmm. I'll call it setting a relational boundary. So
say I'm going to use a weight thing. Say you
want to set a boundary around weight. Mom always comments
you look at you've lost weight, Look you put on
a few pounds, And you might say, Mom, it really
bothers me when you comment on my weight, I think
(31:53):
we'd have a better relationship. That was just off the table.
That's kind of a light. So the mom who thinks, oh,
I want to have a good relationship with you, and yeah,
now that you mentioned that, that is so that might
be your first past. Say you come back again sometime
and she comments on it again, you're going to move
(32:17):
more towards let's have a power boundary. Say, Mom, we've
talked about this, ask you not to comment on my weight.
I'm not going to want to hang out with you
as much or however you would put it. However, you
talk to your mom again, that's another relational boundary. Say
(32:38):
a third time comes up and she's still doing it. Mom,
I've told you waits this, this is not a topic
I'm going to engage in. So I'm going to go
and then you follow through with that. So you can
see you are starting off by trying to preserve the
(32:59):
relationship and seeing if there can be changed within the
relationship and you can move more and more to a power.
The thing I think most good good daughters don't know
is that they have so much more power than they know.
So Mom's had her. You know, when you're grown moms
(33:24):
having kids, she's not gonna happen anymore, and the daughter
gets to decide how much access mom has to her.
It's really when you wake up to it, it's kind
of amazing, and you can get the guilt feelings under control,
(33:45):
you know, because most mothers will take the relationship that
you are offering in the level and they're I mean,
they're incentivized to make it pleasant for you. And if
they're not, I think you really have to evaluate, Like
if you feel beat up ever after every visit and
(34:06):
every phone call and their mom's out there like that,
that just go on the offense. They just then I
think you set the level of contact and engagement appropriately.
But it's more thoughtful. It's not like, Okay, you're a
fill in the blank, I'm gonna cut off contact with you.
(34:28):
It's you know, when I tell you some of the
mistakes I made, I wouldn't say anything forever, and then
I would just blurt something out over something really little,
and I would look kind of foolish, and then I
would end up my mother look at me, what is
old with you? And I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry,
(34:51):
I don't know, I'm just irritated with and I would
triangulate I'm just mad at my husband or the kids
have been so just forget I ever brought it up.
But I think that's what happens when you don't have
like a therapist to talk it through with, and you
don't you have to get so straight within yourself, practice
in front of them there, or you know, rehearse this
(35:12):
with your friends, have your partner ready to support you,
like expect some fall out because that's when people say, well,
I tried to set boundaries, but she won't let me,
or I tried to set a boundary, but it's just
not worth that. You don't know. My mother.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
And we also talk about because when you were saying boundaries,
you know, when we set a boundary, can we normalize
that it can feel really bad setting it, like it's
such an unfamiliar thing, especially if it's like if you're
always been the good girl and now you're starting to
(35:56):
set boundaries. Sometimes people want to avoid the discomfort of
the emotions that come up besides the ones that we're
talking about guild and even like for me, I remember
when I first started setting boundaries and my mom bus
her heart she was so responsive to them, but I
felt so bad setting them, and I felt so bad
(36:18):
sitting in the aftermath of it, and we need to
hold space for them.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I know. I thought love the word normalized, because yeah,
if you're breaking a cycle, you are going to feel uncomfortable.
And you know, if you've always related to mom and
in one way and enjoyed her lovely praising you and
looking at you with adoration, and then you come out
(36:48):
and have this other aspect to yourself, why wouldn't it
feel very threatening? So so you'll get some outer resistance,
but you'll also get mass internal resistance. It's like you're
speaking a different language and she's kind of what, I
(37:08):
don't recognize you because you all have had this symbiotic
and it doesn't mean that it's bad, but just this
certain kind of relationship and all of a sudden you're
speaking a different language and you're going to feel worried.
Is it going to disrupt the apple car? Am I
going to lose my mother's love and admiration? I think
(37:32):
I love that. Yeah, holding space? Of course that's going
to come up. Why wouldn't it from everything we know
about attachment?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, or for people who have tried. They've tried to
set those boundaries and those relational boundaries, and it just
it hasn't worked, and they've gotten to a point where
they have to remove themselves from the situation. I've noticed
that one thing that people struggle with is if I
go into no contact right now or if I remove myself,
(38:05):
does that amy and I don't love my mom? And
so then there's like some resistance there of like, uh,
the love component of it, but also it's like grieving
the loss of the primary relationship. So what are some
(38:29):
emotions that might come up for someone who has tried
their best and it hasn't worked and they have to
remove themselves.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
And that's why I like the this isn't working for
me right now, I need to step away. Like that
language is more about the present, because there's always a
baby shower, there's always a wedding. It's hard to predict
the future. I have I will get to you question,
(39:00):
but I have I was gonna hold up this one client,
of course, no identifying information, but she said, the door
is always open when you are willing to treat me
with respect and kindness, and that image for her the
door being opened and actually her parents did walk back
(39:24):
through it. Much of my surprise was as surprised as anybody.
But when I triumamant imagery, it feels so so good.
All we have to do is talk about what we
need right now, and people talk about radical acceptance. I
(39:46):
think that's what you're getting to, just accepting. Maybe there's
just a ceiling and where your mom can go and
you need to evolve and she can't come with you.
And again anger is that that's a toxic state to
like gin yourself up, like every time you feel the grief,
(40:07):
if you like, oh, stoke the fires of anger, Well,
she's so terrible, Remember she did this. Remember you know
that's not good for anybody. So I think I think,
as you alluded to that, to name the grief when
we accept, and this is probably in so many relationships,
and we accept we can't change anybody. It wasn't that
(40:30):
we were unworthy. So that's what we felt, probably our
whole or if we just get it, if we just
get it just right, if we're good enough, then we're
gonna have the mother we really need. When you give
that up, when you grieve that, and I would say,
(40:50):
it's almost a lifetime. I just I don't see how
this is ever like done. I think you can stop
thinking about it every day, and I think people do
get freedom and they and they build more attachments, healthy attachments.
But when and I okay, I see this in the
really toxic moms, the daughters who are spending hours in
(41:14):
their day dealing with mom. When the dealing with mom
is eating up their time, their emotional energy, they don't
have it to blind with their partner, like partners get
pushed out. I'm fighting with mom when daughters are telling me,
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I've just
(41:35):
said something to mom. Now I'm holding my breath. Or
she's not gonna like what I just said, or she's
gonna want the real intrusive moms, she's gonna want to
report what are you doing so she can weigh in
and criticize. When that's taken up a bunch of time,
and I've seen it like hours. You need to reclaim
(41:56):
claiming my time back right, reclaiming my time, I mean
my life, and there will be grief. It's like a
lot of things. I don't think there's just an easy path,
but it's unlike I think like a boyfriend, Like you
have a bad breakup in like two years, you're like,
(42:19):
oh my gosh, how did I ever fall for that person?
And they really don't take up any of your heart
space or your headspace until you're reminded. I think the mom,
you know, it's in our cellular memory, and you do
just get one mom. But you can have female mentors, friends,
(42:41):
women's circles, women's groups. I think people are coming together
and helping. Podcasts like yours, you know, so you never
know who you're nurturing when you're sending these nice waves
out there is listening to your soothing voice and information
about self care. I think we're just in a huge
(43:03):
looks of change, and grief is part of it. Why
wouldn't it be.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah. One thing that I think of sometimes when I
think of these difficult relationship, whether it's you know, between
a good daughter and a mother or even with a
father extended family members, is this idea of I love you,
but I just don't like you, And that for me,
(43:33):
I found can be really helpful. It's like, if I'm
distancing myself, it doesn't mean I don't love them, It
just means I don't like them and like is like
based on traits, and love is like energetic. So I
can wish you well but also take that wish you
(43:53):
well from a distance.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I love that. Yeah, I mean, if you know people
put the Bible honor that mother and father in a
way if you really pull out, sometimes the best way
to honor somebody's life is to break a cycle and
to live into your truth. And sometimes that means they
(44:18):
can't come with you, so you can love them, have
gratitude for their lives. They're giving your life, and at
the same time say, well, only have twenty four hours
in a day. And if you know I'm constantly dealing
with this negativity toxicity, how is my time my energy
(44:42):
best spent? Because in a way, you think about it,
if you're just mad at your mom, you're spending hours
a day mad at your mother. Is that helping her
rather than if you get the distance and you say,
I understand, I have some understanding about your bringing and
(45:02):
love at a distance, but I'm not going to stay
genned up and thinking negative thoughts about you. The distance
is giving me that. I think that's equal his balance.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, last question, by the way, I love the compassionate
approach you took to that, so, thank you so much.
It's such a soft approach. I'm more of like, I
love soft approaches versus harsh And maybe that's the good
daughter in me that wants the softness. But I'm I'm
(45:36):
curious when good daughters start with difficult mothers. Good daughters
and difficult mothers start to set boundaries. Does a situation
take place where the ident like it's like an identity shattering.
Who am I if I'm not a good daughter? Does
(45:59):
that happen? How does that happen?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great question. So if
you we can go back even to mirror neurons, dance
sequels work and how you know, we looked on our
mother's faces so many things that we did well she pleased?
Was she unhappy? And when you get something positive going
(46:24):
as a good daughter does that's pretty powerful stuff. So
when you shift your identity or you start to see
your mom and like narcissism seems to fit or you know,
all these labels that you really didn't want to think,
it's upsetting, but it explains a lot. So when you
(46:44):
try things out and you experience yourself who I know
myself to be it's by definition going to be unsettling.
I mean growth, you're breaking, you're breaking out of something
that when it's calcified, you know, a customer in case
in you, but you internally are growing. You know, we're
(47:07):
not meant to stay static, but I think there can
be kind of an abrupt Everybody has known me to
be this, and then we talk a lot about the
family dynamic. You get a lot of family pushedback because
they're also counting on you for dealing with mom. So
(47:28):
it sends the ripples out. So people are not so
happy with you when you say, wait a minute, I
want to be a whole person too, And dad says, oh,
you know your mother just gonna make your mother happy.
Don't make life hard for me or your golden child.
Brother says, what I don't want to target on my back.
(47:49):
You're great with mom, you stick, you know you're you're
the one that's going to arrange the birthday presence and
a lot of eldest daughter stuff too. So it's such
a big change. I think that's why fortifying yourself internally
so important. You can get mad, you can read a
(48:11):
blog and be like, oh, she's a narcissist. And if
you're like I used to be thirty years ago. Look, mom,
all these traits you mad you you fit the bill,
go fit yourself. And then you're surprised when she says,
what are you talking about? But that's kind of that's
(48:31):
kind of the first, I think your first instinct. So
it's a big it's a big transformation that has a
lot of payoffs, but it's kind of changed from the
inside out.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Love not I love that there's so much depth to
what you're saying and exactly she said that ripple of
fact on the family members, even extended family. I could
even see it impacting the community, like depending on your
culture and your neighbors. And oh a lot, a lot
(49:10):
can shift can shift when you break that cycle, when you.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Stop doing that emotional labor for everybody. And if the
family has particularly really difficult moms, if the family has
molded and adapted to her ways for decades, yeah they're
not going to be happy. They may agree with you
on the side, but when you need them to back
(49:35):
you up, there's no word to be found. It happens
a lot. I'm not going to say it would never happen,
but kind I like to prepare good Daughters for how
things can come apart, so nothing's a surprise when they
start to make this shift. In a note to get
(49:55):
with the you know, get with a therapist, learn all
you can about this, fortify yourself.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Wow, how can the audience learn more about your work
this approach? And if you know someone is listening to
this episode and they're like, Okay, I'm at that place
where something needs to change and this message is resonating
that's my mom like that's or that's our family dynamic,
(50:28):
how can they start?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, the thing to remember if it resonates with you,
remember the good Daughter syndrome. If you google that good
Daughter Syndrome quiz, you will be taken to my quiz,
a series of questions that will let you know definitively
you know am I in this? Am I experiencing this?
Or not? From there, I have a book entitled The
(50:53):
Good Daughter Syndrome. My name is Catherine Farizio. But it's
a good place to start. Take the quids and find
out if this applies to you and if so, I
have blogs and emails and all kinds of materials that
can help you along this very long, complex journey. I say,
(51:17):
when you want to make this shift, but you still
want to be a good person, feel like a good person.
You are a good person, but when you still want
to feel like a good person, because I get that,
I get that. Wow.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Thank you so so much for sharing your insights, sharing
your wisdom, sharing the truth about this process and that
it is a complex process and it is as you mentioned,
you might not be thinking about it every day, but
it's like forever a part of you and really talking
about that and helping people realize that what they need
(52:02):
and the internal as we mentioned, like the internal strength,
the internal grounding to navigate this complex relationship. But for
as you said, a lot of good payoff as well.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
At the end of it, it pays a lot of dividends.
I can't make it easy, but I can make it easier. Love.
Your approach to these podcasts is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Thank you so so much, Catherine for being on for sharing.
I feel like we could go hours talking deeper and
deeper into this, but for the sake of time and
respecting your time, I just wanted to say that I
really appreciate the work that you do and thank you
for sharing.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Thank you so much, amazing, Thank.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
You everyone for listening speaks. Thank you for joining us
this week on Minutes on Growth. If you enjoy today's episode,
then make sure you never miss a show by clicking
the subscribe button now
You're listening to the Minutes on Growth Podcast, the show
that brings you mindfully curated insights into relationships, spirituality, personal
development and everything in between with your hosts Tenas.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
The same Poor.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hi, so friends, it's Tanasa the same port and welcome
back to another episode of the Minutes on Growth Podcast.
Today we have a very special guest with us, and
I am sure you are going to love this topic.
We have Catherine Fabrizia with us. She is a psychotherapist
and author of The Good Daughters Syndrome, help for empathetic
(00:42):
daughters of narcissistic, borderline or difficult mothers trapped in the
role of the good daughter. Wow, what a powerful title.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Welcome Katherine, Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I am so excited to dive into this conversation because
it's one that I see both you know, my friends
and the clients that I work with struggle with this,
this concept of generational trauma and this exactly as you
talk about, this like intersection of the good girl conditioning
(01:21):
that many of us have experienced. So let's let's dive
right and if you're comfortable, what is the good girl
good daughter syndrome?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'll like the slip because it's relevant. So the quickest
way I can describe it. So, when you take an empathetic, sensitive,
attuned daughter who's raised by a mother who's described as difficult,
she could be narcissistic, borderline, or just high in those traits,
(01:55):
or because of even cultural reasons, she's difficult, and throughout
development and over time when the daughter adjusts and adapts
to mom's emotional immaturity, insecurity, dysregulation. By the time she's
(02:16):
an adult and is relating as an adult to an adult,
she's working so hard to try and please a mom
who can't be pleased. She's emotionally has her mother at
the center of our emotional life. Maybe the mom's needy, intrusive,
(02:38):
or clingy. So that kind of last phase of development
when it's really when it's the crack show and it's
really time to take your leave, become your own woman,
make your decisions yourself. Mom is still clinging and you
are still unconsciously and consciously taking on the more subservient
(03:04):
role and therapist, surrogate or best friend, so you can
you can't like launch into your own life with this
kind of ball and chain or leash pulling you back.
And this is spectrum. People might have an intergenerational wounding
(03:25):
around say one issue, or if the mom is pretty
high on those narcissistic or borderline traits, then it's probably
her whole personality that the daughter has adapted to. And
it's well, I can say more, but that's that's kind
of a good overview. That's a lot, but it's a dynamic.
(03:47):
It's not totally mom or totally the daughter, but it's
how you have bonded throughout your development that shows itself
in adulthood differently.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Wow, I love that when you were saying, like narcissistic
trades and borderline traits and you know that being a spectrum,
But you also said, like the difficult mothers who are
emotionally immature, who are disregulated. Can we talk about that
because often it's not talked about as often the importance
of emotional maturity and nervousness and regulation in being a
(04:24):
parent in motherhood.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Mm hmmm. I think what's asked of women is incredibly difficult.
You know, we're supposed to attach, sacrifice, put our own
needs aside, and then we're supposed to let go, you know.
I mean it's it's so difficult what we ask of ourselves,
(04:51):
and so the degree to which we have sure footing
when we have children, that's going to be test, I say,
like the paraneum and childbirth is going to be tested
with all these psychological tasks. So a mom who is
qualifies for a personality disorder, which is as you know,
(05:14):
as a psychotherapist, you get a diagnosis if something's persistent
and pervasive, like throughout time and throughout the personality. I
can talk about that later, because some moms are really difficult,
very unlikely to change, and then other moms. I mean,
the world is changing so fast, and we're raising our
(05:35):
daughters to be empowered and to step into their own
and so as moms, if we've never done that, or
we're coming out of a very patriarchal culture or what's
been expected of us is so different, it can be
I think there's this, you know, see change, and so
(05:57):
it's kind of on a sociological spectrum, we're gonna see
cracks and mothers struggling. So you've got kind of in
one camp, somebody who's truly personality disordered and they've been
acting a certain way with their children for a long time,
and another way of saying that, I mean, we'd give
somebody the diagnosis of narcissism or borderline, but what we
(06:21):
observe is emotional immaturity, you know, a rigidity. A mom
who needs to be who's narcissistic, needs to be superior,
she needs to be right all the time, and on
the more pathological end of the spectrum, she might need
to defeat her daughter. But at the same time, we
(06:43):
could have say if we weren't raised to speak our mind,
or say if we sacrificed our education and never went
to work, if we wanted to go to work, and
then the daughter comes up and she has all these advantages.
You know, it might not be unhealthy to be envious.
Hopefully we deal with that, But if it's unconscious, if
(07:06):
you don't even know you're envious and you act out,
then you're gonna be maybe given your daughter mixed messages
like cheering are on on the one hand, and making
snide comments that just slip out of your mouth must
be nice. You know your husband lets you stay home,
or you can imagine. Like so, I think what we
(07:29):
ask of women and mothers is incredibly difficult, and some
daughters who really have terrible mothers, don't like what I
have to say when I when I advocate somewhat for
the moms, and then there's another camp like, oh, you're
too rough on moms. But I have grown daughters myself,
(07:52):
and I haven't done everything perfectly, not by a long stretch,
but I kind of I understand the struggle from both sides.
I mean, my unique struggle, it's not everybody's. And then
seeing women for thirty five years come into psychotherapy, you know,
I know my story. But then variations on this theme
(08:15):
and there is a spectrum of course life with so
many things.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Wow, I love that because it as you were speaking,
it kind of gave me the energy of hope that
you know, when we're acting out and unconscious behaviors, right,
and books like this come out and we start to
realize and we become conscious of maybe I have been
(08:42):
doing this, Maybe I have been intrusive, Maybe I have
been needy and I wasn't aware of it before. That
creates space for change. And I'm wondering, and you know,
over thirty five years of clinical practice, how common is
it for moms to have this awareness and to want
(09:04):
to shift? Is it something that's done on their own,
or is it a trigger by the daughter, like who
breaks free or who kind of sparks the change first.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Oh, that's that's a great question. Let me start by saying,
I think this is interesting. When I first started off
in practice, people would come to me and they would
present with maybe they had had a bad breakup, or
they had been attracted to, say, a narcissist, so that
(09:35):
would be their first level of awareness. Back when I started,
nobody even used the word boundaries. Boundaries weren't a thing,
if you can imagine. So then you have the cultural
overlay of your mom's your best friend, nobody loves you
like your mother. So this was so taboo. So I
saw it shift for thirty five years, and it still
(09:58):
is terribly hard. People will tell me all the time
I went to see my first therapist, she said my
mother might be narcissistic, and I quit that therapist. Now
ten years later, I'm coming back. I think it's true.
It's really hard to face. So I mostly see the daughters,
and the daughters are in pain, and because of this
(10:21):
lifting awareness, they realize that something's something's wrong. I would
say it varies. Some relationships are able to be salvaged,
and they can grow, the moms can adapt, and the
daughters can have maybe even a greater understanding of where
the mom's coming from. And then sadly, there are relationships
(10:47):
where a daughter just it's too toxic, she has to
go no contact. I know that phrase is very much
in the vernacular, and I use it, and I have
clients and support them who have gone no contact. But
I like to say, maybe it's more accurate to say
the relationship that I have now with you mom is
(11:09):
not working, you know, to just start in them now
it's not working for me, and I can say more
about this, but and then you can go about testing
how much flexibility there is. Maybe mom's is totally unaware,
and I know for myself, but the body positivity, I
(11:32):
would say to my daughters, oh you look, you know,
you look so slim in that outfit, and they let
me know really fast, my body is not up for comment.
And it's stung. You know, I'm not gonna lie. It
was like, oh, I had been, you know, set back,
And then I thought about it and I realized that's
(11:52):
so true, and how that would have given me so
much relief in my you know, years. If my mom
didn't even think it was. It was always a compliment
if she said, oh, you look like you've lost weight,
or you know, that was always on the plus side,
or oh you should really it's way. So these things
are in flox, and I think we're getting better. It's
(12:15):
it's hard. Somebody has a true personality disorder and their
defenses are so rigid they're probably just going to go
on the offense and they're not going to be able
to flix with you. But the facts of that, if you.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Like, I love that, like the nuanced approach, like it's
not a one size fits all, it's not black or white,
like there's there's so much that goes into it. And
as you were sharing that that experience between you and
your daughters, and you know the concept of boundaries and
how it's it's a relatively new concept that we're talking about.
(13:00):
Especially you know, I always say, like certain uh psycholog
like psychological comments or concepts, I would say, it takes
a while for them to even translate to other cultures,
like boundaries, and my opinion is a topic that's been
(13:20):
talked about individualistic cultures for a while, but for collectivists
it's still a relatively taboo concept because of the degree
of interconnectedness between family members and you know, to the
level of enmeshment.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So this.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I want to know how culture plays a role into
setting these boundaries with difficult mothers, and how it would
look different in an individualistic culture family versus a collectivist one.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Mm. Yeah, So if your family prizes entrepreneurship, going off
on your own, having your own mind, and following your
own path, you're going to pick that up as a
little kid, that those messages are going to be sent. However,
like my ex in laws were immigrants from Italy and
(14:15):
they had they had a lot of things worked out.
I can tell you they had very tight familial connections
and because their experience, mother and father in law came
over here and they just had each other, you know,
so married to a Jewish husband and know when when
(14:36):
you've been in the minority, you just have each other.
And there's I understand that there's kind of and it
can't even be a distrust towards the more progressive or
western culture. So I get that. Also, I would say
the more patriarchal a culture is, and that the more
(15:00):
the men have held the power, so women have a
need for power. We didn't like, we don't just not
have a need for it, And so sometimes they are
given the daughters, Well, you can't have power out in
the world, but you have power in the family, and
you have power over the daughters and daughters in law.
(15:21):
So somebody who is say, culturally hungry for power, it's
just going It's just physics. It's just gonna trickle down.
And if it's sanctioned by the culture, it's not only
like this is your only avenue, but it's sanctioned. When
you try and do something different, you're gonna have generational
(15:46):
ripples of resistance that aren't even conscious conscious though probably
in your DNA with epigenetics, you know, it's an incredibly
difficult So I think so that's m M.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It's interesting because I was thinking about myself and how
you know, I come from a Persian background, and there's
certain cultural expectations and this need for putting like my
family's needs first and self sacrificing is so deeply embedded
(16:30):
into my belief system that I want to be a
good daughter. I want to be a good daughter. It's
like I crave to be a good daughter because it
also means that all the sacrifices that my parents made
for me immigrating it didn't go to waste. And so
(16:51):
when I am setting certain boundaries, I feel tremendous amount
of guilt. And can we talk about that guilt?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, that's the number one emotion that people feel a lot.
To say about guilt one way, just on a physiological level,
to think about it. So we're biologically programmed to bond
with our moms because we know we won't get fed,
(17:25):
we won't get shelter, we won't survive. So I call
our survival brain says we've got to make it work
with this one person. So they're going to give us
all these things we need to survive. So you think
about that happens pre verbally. That happens before language even starts,
(17:48):
So it gets woven in implicit implicit implicit. If I'm say,
if I get upset and mom's just regulated, it's chaos,
So I'm gonna shrink. I'm gonna keep myself small if
I do something rude, and all this stuff is you know,
convey by looks and shoulder shrugs, and men don't even
(18:09):
get it. I mean we get it in nanana. Second,
I could tell if my mother was okay and okay
with me by the tone of her voice on a
phone call. Three words, I knew where the conversation was
headed anyway. So we pick up all these things unconsciously.
So then when we go to make a change, even
a small change, the feeling that comes in is guilt
(18:33):
or I'm bad, good, bad.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
One thing that I suggest is that you mindfully become
aware guilt is a condition response. It's a biological sensation
before it's a thought. So if you can put a
pause in, you know, witness yourself. Oh there's my stomach clenching,
(19:01):
Here come the thoughts, you know, or feel shamed. That's
a very common response, being more extreme than guilt. But
extreme guilt can feel like shame, like I'm bad, I'm
in trouble. I'm five years old, and I'm gonna get
hit or sent to my room or worse, disapproved of.
And then the person I'm attached to and love more
(19:23):
than anything else in this world is not going to
be happy with me. So that's one aspect, and there's
some somatic things we can do with that. Do like
just put a pause, Wait a minute, I'm feeling guilty.
But am I guilty of everything my head's telling me.
(19:44):
I would say, yes, I am guilty of disrupting a pattern.
How are you going to break cycles? If you have
to be willing to have some discomfort and if anybody,
I think he tells you there's like a straight and
we can go without discomfort, and you know, just follow
these five easy steps and you won't feel any guilt. Ah,
(20:07):
that's that's for the birds. So the first thing is
you're gonna feel it in your body because this has
been conditioned perhaps through generations. And it's interesting parents who
came here from some other place, they had to disappoint
some people, right, they left some people behind, so and
that's a whole other interesting kettle of fish. So they
(20:28):
may that's maybe why where you get the mixed message.
You know, they're applauding you at the same time, don't
forget us because maybe we had to break away and
you think about when we sailed over here from other
countries and maybe people never saw their families again, which
is in our DNA. So this feeling, oh, disloyalty and
(20:50):
betrayal on so many levels. So we have the biological
mandate to be loyal to bond. And however, as in nature,
we also have the mandate to differentiate, which you tell
(21:10):
you know, you talk to your relatives and they understand this, right,
they may they broke away at some at some point,
even if they've kept all the you know, a lot
of the things, but we do I think too deeply.
Is particularly for the good daughters to deeply understand that
(21:32):
you are aligning with a force of nature that is
good and healthy and necessary. I think that's why when
people just get mad and they blow up, then sometimes
it's needed. I'm done with you, mom, I'm going to
no contact. That's the last time. It's hard to sustain
(21:54):
that activated state. But and I know, for me, I
had my lineage was really psychotherapist, and I had a
mentor who was my mother's age, and she told didn't
tell me, but she supported me in my differentiation. And
so I aligned with somebody older and wiser and who
(22:16):
I saw, as you know, a voice in the field.
So this could be a religious authority, or a female mentor,
or someone who you admire. But I think it's it's
so important that you come to terms with these These
(22:37):
changes are good and they're healthy, and you're altering cycles
that you were then going to pass down whether or
not you have children. But you're going to be a
force in the world for good, I think for good daughters.
Now some people are rebels. There's just like, the hell
(22:57):
with you. I've never felt favored by you. Guys. You know,
I want to go off and do my own thing.
That's not who I wrote the book for. Understand that adaptation,
but it's those of us. It sounds like you're You're like,
you want to be good. You you have a strong
sense of justice, you want to do good in the world,
(23:21):
and you have Yeah. So it's it's a cognitive thing,
it's an educational thing, it's a bodily thing. And and
then it's practice. It's like resistance training. You have to
practice that muscle and you get better at it and
(23:42):
you can tolerate the discomfort, you know, little by little,
take on a little more.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
M I'm curious what makes a mother difficult? Besides what
we talked about. We've talked about this neediness, We've talked
about dysregulation, so emotionally immature, what else makes a mother
(24:11):
mother difficult?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So to just go in casual terms, she has no boundaries,
and she certainly doesn't respect yours. It's it's like she
doesn't see any value in that. Maybe she gives unwanted advice.
Maybe she has to be right all the time, she
can never give it to you. Maybe she can't apologize
(24:39):
without a yes, but you or I meant x so,
And so she's intrusive, bullying, plainy, needy, critical. So that
kind of paints a picture. I guess underneath it we
see a REGI. We all can be plainy, needy, critical,
(25:05):
But I guess it's really good. That variable is that
there's little, if no repair ability to repair, which takes humility.
It takes ownership on the mom's part, humility on the
mom's part, a willingness to be vulnerable to think, well,
(25:32):
maybe I do need to change. And we can break
it down into how narcissistic a borderline moms have trouble
with all this in terms of narcissistic mom for need,
So narcissist, do you want to go into that a
little bit?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Please?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Go? Okay? So a narcissist comes from a place of deficit,
we know of that of self love, loathing, and they
feel worthless inside. What you see is the defense to that.
In other words, I call it like armed guards around
the sense of self, so or another way to think
about it. They don't They didn't get the feeling when
(26:14):
they were little that just through existence brought their parents joy.
We all deserve that, we all need that. Some people
don't get it. So it's like they go around with
this cup that needs to be filled, and they find
out if I perform, if I may be a good daughter,
if I make straight a's or good daughter, so if
(26:40):
I'm braggadocius, if I call attention to myself, all this
and so, but that never really it never really seeps
into their sense of self, and so they need it
like a drug supply. So along comes a daughter. She
adores you. And if a mother is has a deficit
in this, she's going to be terrified of not being relevant,
(27:03):
say when her daughter grows up. So she has to
be give that unwanted advice, criticize, I'm going to fix
you on, make you better. She may unlike men so
much appropriate like your success is my success, you know.
And by the way, I'm terrified of your failures, so
you cannot fail. That's the other thing, because she herself
(27:24):
is terrified of her own failures. So that's narcissism. Borderline
mom's main wound is abandonment. That's how that kind of
gets set set into motion. So in a daughter's normal
differentiation individuation, you know, and this comes from the twos,
(27:46):
I mean it comes from early on. If the mom's
really threatened by that, she's going to send signals I
can't tolerate when you pull away from me, I can't tolerate.
And this is going to happen throughout development. It's when
that daughter becomes an adolescent and wants to have her
own taste in music, her own friends, has secrets, you know,
(28:07):
with her best girlfriend, that's usually attention because mom's losing
you and losing her relevance. But I like to say
when it goes from pretension to full on armageddon, you
know that many times is a narcissistic or borderline mom
who feels very threatened by the daughters pulling away. So
(28:32):
and sometimes a good daughter adaptation will be well, I
just won't pull away. I'll become so good and I
will make straight a's. I will never do anything bad
to cause you pain or upset. And then she goes underground,
and that's a population who may have cutting or eating disorders,
(28:57):
or our real sense of imposter syndrome. Her performative self
won't be integrated with who she knows herself to be
on a deep level because she was never She could
never afford to act out to rebell in any way.
You know. Even choosing your own music is a form
of it's a form of differentiation. But if your mom's
(29:19):
really threatened by it, what are you becoming? Then the
rebel will do it anyway, and kind of she's off
to the races from that point on.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The wedding is another like these are flashpoints looking through
the lens of differentiation, separation. How the mom responds and
again there's usually tension. You know, is the wedding and
reflection on mom's status or is it truly? Was it
(29:54):
truly your wedding? Birth of the first child is another
grandchild as another These are touch points or kind of
tests the mom's ability to integrate this new reality as
daughter becomes her own person. Anyway, that's a whole lot
(30:15):
to come.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Wow, I love it. I love all the insights you're
sharing with us. So okay, So now let's say the child,
the daughter, the good daughter, is aware that something needs
to change, maybe as you mentioned, her holding on and
continuing to be in that state as maybe manifesting in
(30:37):
physical illnesses. I know there's a lot of research on
like autoimmune diseases as a response to that holding on
to the space. That's like I'm constantly walking on eggshells.
This like constantly in survival mode to make sure I don't,
you know, piss Mom off or make her mad or
(30:58):
disappoint her. As you said that the fear of disappointment
is a huge one. Let's say we're ready to make
a change. How can we set boundaries? Is there like
mistakes that might you've seen happen when setting boundaries? You know,
how can we set into boundaries where we can kind
(31:19):
of be myself. I'm going to reclaim my autonomy, but
I also want to preserve that relationship and that family time.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Mm hmm. I'll call it setting a relational boundary. So
say I'm going to use a weight thing. Say you
want to set a boundary around weight. Mom always comments
you look at you've lost weight, Look you put on
a few pounds, And you might say, Mom, it really
bothers me when you comment on my weight, I think
(31:53):
we'd have a better relationship. That was just off the table.
That's kind of a light. So the mom who thinks, oh,
I want to have a good relationship with you, and yeah,
now that you mentioned that, that is so that might
be your first past. Say you come back again sometime
and she comments on it again, you're going to move
(32:17):
more towards let's have a power boundary. Say, Mom, we've
talked about this, ask you not to comment on my weight.
I'm not going to want to hang out with you
as much or however you would put it. However, you
talk to your mom again, that's another relational boundary. Say
(32:38):
a third time comes up and she's still doing it. Mom,
I've told you waits this, this is not a topic
I'm going to engage in. So I'm going to go
and then you follow through with that. So you can
see you are starting off by trying to preserve the
(32:59):
relationship and seeing if there can be changed within the
relationship and you can move more and more to a power.
The thing I think most good good daughters don't know
is that they have so much more power than they know.
So Mom's had her. You know, when you're grown moms
(33:24):
having kids, she's not gonna happen anymore, and the daughter
gets to decide how much access mom has to her.
It's really when you wake up to it, it's kind
of amazing, and you can get the guilt feelings under control,
(33:45):
you know, because most mothers will take the relationship that
you are offering in the level and they're I mean,
they're incentivized to make it pleasant for you. And if
they're not, I think you really have to evaluate, Like
if you feel beat up ever after every visit and
(34:06):
every phone call and their mom's out there like that,
that just go on the offense. They just then I
think you set the level of contact and engagement appropriately.
But it's more thoughtful. It's not like, Okay, you're a
fill in the blank, I'm gonna cut off contact with you.
(34:28):
It's you know, when I tell you some of the
mistakes I made, I wouldn't say anything forever, and then
I would just blurt something out over something really little,
and I would look kind of foolish, and then I
would end up my mother look at me, what is
old with you? And I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry,
(34:51):
I don't know, I'm just irritated with and I would
triangulate I'm just mad at my husband or the kids
have been so just forget I ever brought it up.
But I think that's what happens when you don't have
like a therapist to talk it through with, and you
don't you have to get so straight within yourself, practice
in front of them there, or you know, rehearse this
(35:12):
with your friends, have your partner ready to support you,
like expect some fall out because that's when people say, well,
I tried to set boundaries, but she won't let me,
or I tried to set a boundary, but it's just
not worth that. You don't know. My mother.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
And we also talk about because when you were saying boundaries,
you know, when we set a boundary, can we normalize
that it can feel really bad setting it, like it's
such an unfamiliar thing, especially if it's like if you're
always been the good girl and now you're starting to
(35:56):
set boundaries. Sometimes people want to avoid the discomfort of
the emotions that come up besides the ones that we're
talking about guild and even like for me, I remember
when I first started setting boundaries and my mom bus
her heart she was so responsive to them, but I
felt so bad setting them, and I felt so bad
(36:18):
sitting in the aftermath of it, and we need to
hold space for them.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I know. I thought love the word normalized, because yeah,
if you're breaking a cycle, you are going to feel uncomfortable.
And you know, if you've always related to mom and
in one way and enjoyed her lovely praising you and
looking at you with adoration, and then you come out
(36:48):
and have this other aspect to yourself, why wouldn't it
feel very threatening? So so you'll get some outer resistance,
but you'll also get mass internal resistance. It's like you're
speaking a different language and she's kind of what, I
(37:08):
don't recognize you because you all have had this symbiotic
and it doesn't mean that it's bad, but just this
certain kind of relationship and all of a sudden you're
speaking a different language and you're going to feel worried.
Is it going to disrupt the apple car? Am I
going to lose my mother's love and admiration? I think
(37:32):
I love that. Yeah, holding space? Of course that's going
to come up. Why wouldn't it from everything we know
about attachment?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah, or for people who have tried. They've tried to
set those boundaries and those relational boundaries, and it just
it hasn't worked, and they've gotten to a point where
they have to remove themselves from the situation. I've noticed
that one thing that people struggle with is if I
go into no contact right now or if I remove myself,
(38:05):
does that amy and I don't love my mom? And
so then there's like some resistance there of like, uh,
the love component of it, but also it's like grieving
the loss of the primary relationship. So what are some
(38:29):
emotions that might come up for someone who has tried
their best and it hasn't worked and they have to
remove themselves.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
And that's why I like the this isn't working for
me right now, I need to step away. Like that
language is more about the present, because there's always a
baby shower, there's always a wedding. It's hard to predict
the future. I have I will get to you question,
(39:00):
but I have I was gonna hold up this one client,
of course, no identifying information, but she said, the door
is always open when you are willing to treat me
with respect and kindness, and that image for her the
door being opened and actually her parents did walk back
(39:24):
through it. Much of my surprise was as surprised as anybody.
But when I triumamant imagery, it feels so so good.
All we have to do is talk about what we
need right now, and people talk about radical acceptance. I
(39:46):
think that's what you're getting to, just accepting. Maybe there's
just a ceiling and where your mom can go and
you need to evolve and she can't come with you.
And again anger is that that's a toxic state to
like gin yourself up, like every time you feel the grief,
(40:07):
if you like, oh, stoke the fires of anger, Well,
she's so terrible, Remember she did this. Remember you know
that's not good for anybody. So I think I think,
as you alluded to that, to name the grief when
we accept, and this is probably in so many relationships,
and we accept we can't change anybody. It wasn't that
(40:30):
we were unworthy. So that's what we felt, probably our
whole or if we just get it, if we just
get it just right, if we're good enough, then we're
gonna have the mother we really need. When you give
that up, when you grieve that, and I would say,
(40:50):
it's almost a lifetime. I just I don't see how
this is ever like done. I think you can stop
thinking about it every day, and I think people do
get freedom and they and they build more attachments, healthy attachments.
But when and I okay, I see this in the
really toxic moms, the daughters who are spending hours in
(41:14):
their day dealing with mom. When the dealing with mom
is eating up their time, their emotional energy, they don't
have it to blind with their partner, like partners get
pushed out. I'm fighting with mom when daughters are telling me,
I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I've just
(41:35):
said something to mom. Now I'm holding my breath. Or
she's not gonna like what I just said, or she's
gonna want the real intrusive moms, she's gonna want to
report what are you doing so she can weigh in
and criticize. When that's taken up a bunch of time,
and I've seen it like hours. You need to reclaim
(41:56):
claiming my time back right, reclaiming my time, I mean
my life, and there will be grief. It's like a
lot of things. I don't think there's just an easy path,
but it's unlike I think like a boyfriend, Like you
have a bad breakup in like two years, you're like,
(42:19):
oh my gosh, how did I ever fall for that person?
And they really don't take up any of your heart
space or your headspace until you're reminded. I think the mom,
you know, it's in our cellular memory, and you do
just get one mom. But you can have female mentors, friends,
(42:41):
women's circles, women's groups. I think people are coming together
and helping. Podcasts like yours, you know, so you never
know who you're nurturing when you're sending these nice waves
out there is listening to your soothing voice and information
about self care. I think we're just in a huge
(43:03):
looks of change, and grief is part of it. Why
wouldn't it be.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Yeah. One thing that I think of sometimes when I
think of these difficult relationship, whether it's you know, between
a good daughter and a mother or even with a
father extended family members, is this idea of I love you,
but I just don't like you, And that for me,
(43:33):
I found can be really helpful. It's like, if I'm
distancing myself, it doesn't mean I don't love them, It
just means I don't like them and like is like
based on traits, and love is like energetic. So I
can wish you well but also take that wish you
(43:53):
well from a distance.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
I love that. Yeah, I mean, if you know people
put the Bible honor that mother and father in a
way if you really pull out, sometimes the best way
to honor somebody's life is to break a cycle and
to live into your truth. And sometimes that means they
(44:18):
can't come with you, so you can love them, have
gratitude for their lives. They're giving your life, and at
the same time say, well, only have twenty four hours
in a day. And if you know I'm constantly dealing
with this negativity toxicity, how is my time my energy
(44:42):
best spent? Because in a way, you think about it,
if you're just mad at your mom, you're spending hours
a day mad at your mother. Is that helping her
rather than if you get the distance and you say,
I understand, I have some understanding about your bringing and
(45:02):
love at a distance, but I'm not going to stay
genned up and thinking negative thoughts about you. The distance
is giving me that. I think that's equal his balance.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, last question, by the way, I love the compassionate
approach you took to that, so, thank you so much.
It's such a soft approach. I'm more of like, I
love soft approaches versus harsh And maybe that's the good
daughter in me that wants the softness. But I'm I'm
(45:36):
curious when good daughters start with difficult mothers. Good daughters
and difficult mothers start to set boundaries. Does a situation
take place where the ident like it's like an identity shattering.
Who am I if I'm not a good daughter? Does
(45:59):
that happen? How does that happen?
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, that's a great, great question. So if
you we can go back even to mirror neurons, dance
sequels work and how you know, we looked on our
mother's faces so many things that we did well she pleased?
Was she unhappy? And when you get something positive going
(46:24):
as a good daughter does that's pretty powerful stuff. So
when you shift your identity or you start to see
your mom and like narcissism seems to fit or you know,
all these labels that you really didn't want to think,
it's upsetting, but it explains a lot. So when you
(46:44):
try things out and you experience yourself who I know
myself to be it's by definition going to be unsettling.
I mean growth, you're breaking, you're breaking out of something
that when it's calcified, you know, a customer in case
in you, but you internally are growing. You know, we're
(47:07):
not meant to stay static, but I think there can
be kind of an abrupt Everybody has known me to
be this, and then we talk a lot about the
family dynamic. You get a lot of family pushedback because
they're also counting on you for dealing with mom. So
(47:28):
it sends the ripples out. So people are not so
happy with you when you say, wait a minute, I
want to be a whole person too, And dad says, oh,
you know your mother just gonna make your mother happy.
Don't make life hard for me or your golden child.
Brother says, what I don't want to target on my back.
(47:49):
You're great with mom, you stick, you know you're you're
the one that's going to arrange the birthday presence and
a lot of eldest daughter stuff too. So it's such
a big change. I think that's why fortifying yourself internally
so important. You can get mad, you can read a
(48:11):
blog and be like, oh, she's a narcissist. And if
you're like I used to be thirty years ago. Look, mom,
all these traits you mad you you fit the bill,
go fit yourself. And then you're surprised when she says,
what are you talking about? But that's kind of that's
(48:31):
kind of the first, I think your first instinct. So
it's a big it's a big transformation that has a
lot of payoffs, but it's kind of changed from the
inside out.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Love not I love that there's so much depth to
what you're saying and exactly she said that ripple of
fact on the family members, even extended family. I could
even see it impacting the community, like depending on your
culture and your neighbors. And oh a lot, a lot
(49:10):
can shift can shift when you break that cycle, when you.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Stop doing that emotional labor for everybody. And if the
family has particularly really difficult moms, if the family has
molded and adapted to her ways for decades, yeah they're
not going to be happy. They may agree with you
on the side, but when you need them to back
(49:35):
you up, there's no word to be found. It happens
a lot. I'm not going to say it would never happen,
but kind I like to prepare good Daughters for how
things can come apart, so nothing's a surprise when they
start to make this shift. In a note to get
(49:55):
with the you know, get with a therapist, learn all
you can about this, fortify yourself.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Wow, how can the audience learn more about your work
this approach? And if you know someone is listening to
this episode and they're like, Okay, I'm at that place
where something needs to change and this message is resonating
that's my mom like that's or that's our family dynamic,
(50:28):
how can they start?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, the thing to remember if it resonates with you,
remember the good Daughter syndrome. If you google that good
Daughter Syndrome quiz, you will be taken to my quiz,
a series of questions that will let you know definitively
you know am I in this? Am I experiencing this?
Or not? From there, I have a book entitled The
(50:53):
Good Daughter Syndrome. My name is Catherine Farizio. But it's
a good place to start. Take the quids and find
out if this applies to you and if so, I
have blogs and emails and all kinds of materials that
can help you along this very long, complex journey. I say,
(51:17):
when you want to make this shift, but you still
want to be a good person, feel like a good person.
You are a good person, but when you still want
to feel like a good person, because I get that,
I get that. Wow.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Thank you so so much for sharing your insights, sharing
your wisdom, sharing the truth about this process and that
it is a complex process and it is as you mentioned,
you might not be thinking about it every day, but
it's like forever a part of you and really talking
about that and helping people realize that what they need
(52:02):
and the internal as we mentioned, like the internal strength,
the internal grounding to navigate this complex relationship. But for
as you said, a lot of good payoff as well.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
At the end of it, it pays a lot of dividends.
I can't make it easy, but I can make it easier. Love.
Your approach to these podcasts is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Thank you so so much, Catherine for being on for sharing.
I feel like we could go hours talking deeper and
deeper into this, but for the sake of time and
respecting your time, I just wanted to say that I
really appreciate the work that you do and thank you
for sharing.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Thank you so much, amazing, Thank.
Speaker 1 (52:53):
You everyone for listening speaks. Thank you for joining us
this week on Minutes on Growth. If you enjoy today's episode,
then make sure you never miss a show by clicking
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