Paz (T4 E42)

Paz
Temporada: 4
Episodio: 42

• 00:00 Editorial
• 01:18 Sumario
• 04:45 La entrevista, con Maciel Delgado
• 15:00 Mujer y literatura, con Verónica García
• 18:50 Libros Malditos
• 21:00 Cine y literatura, Caminos de Gloria, Senderos de Gloria
• 25:10 Curiosidades literarias
• 28:55 Psicoeducación 2.0, con Elizabeth López
• 33:55 Efemérides literarias
• 35:40 San Borondón, con María Pujol Valls y María Graell Martín

Todo el sumario en https://www.nadacomounlibro.com/

Produce: Bilenio Publicaciones.
Con Juan Carlos Saavedra y Daniel Martín.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Nothing like a book. It isa podcas led by Juan Carlos Avedra by
Daniel Martín, sponsored by the Ministryof Culture and financed by the European Neon
with the Nexcineration funds. Throughout history, literature has played a fundamental role in
the dissemination of pacifist ideals, beinga powerful vehicle for reflection and awareness of
the horrors of war and the importanceof peace. Through words, writers and

(00:27):
writers have given voice to the aspirationsfor peace and denounced the killing and violations
of human rights, creating a literarylegacy that seeks to confront the fierce and
cruel reality of the human being ina dream of harmony and mutual understanding.

(00:47):
The pacifist literature is not limited toa genre or epoch but ranges from the
ancient apopeys to the most modern artisticproposals. Pacifism and literature. Es es
es es ns is so intrinsically linkedwith authors and authors that, through their
essay story, scripts and poems,they not only portray the reality of war,

(01:10):
but also inspire humanity to seek pathsof peace. Nothing with a book
and one of the words you won' t cross a sea of letters.
Paths be free with wolf faith makethe pages of a nest called good to

(01:38):
be how yesterday produced change and changeDani. Perhaps this is the podcast that
most, being at peace, weboth start, of course because the theme
we have chosen to tour all sectionsof ours nothing like a book, because

(01:59):
peace, quiet, tranquility, becauseI am going to start by sharing an
interview precisely of a moment in thelives of many people in which peace is
sought, which is when a traumaticdivorce occurs. And I did so,
interviewing Masil Delgado, a psychologist whohas written a book, The Silence of
God and the Absent Guilt Your Post- Divorce Journey. There is a book

(02:23):
that I love, which is calledreading for a better world, because it
gives children' s and young people' s literature that transformative power in which
many of us believe. That iswhy we interviewed María Aposol Valls and María
Grael Martín, both from the InternationalUniversity of Catalonia, and wrote in this
book an article entitled" Proposals foran analysis of the rights of the child

(02:46):
and the objectives of sustainable development inchildren' s and young people' s
literature". About the war andalso about children' s and young people
' s literature. We talked toElisabel Lopez in space and psychopedagogy. Two
zero point to approach this literature witha very particular vision, because Look talking
about war, I our particular trunkfound a poem in which whose title appears

(03:10):
the word peace and which, curiouslycost its author and a journalist who divulged
it a court martial. Well,speaking of war advice, there' s
a movie that was called Paths ofGlory in Spain and it' s a
book that also had the same title. Hanfreycop wrote this novel inspired by the

(03:31):
horrors of World War I, andthen Stanley Kubrick made this film. Gloria
' s trails, where there's a court- martial. That'
s why we' re going totalk about this movie and this book.
If there is a book that endedpeace in the world, without a doubt,
it is my struggle written by AdolfHitler. We talked about him in
our section dedicated to cursed books,in the space we dedicate to women in

(03:54):
literature. We are talking about LigobertaMenchú, Nobel Peace Prize winner and the
controversy that generated the contents of thebook. Rigoberta Menchú called me and so
my conscience was born, an effemereand detached from peace. It is the
eighteenth of July in On that dayis celebrated the International Day of Nelson Mandela,

(04:15):
a person who did enough for peacethroughout the world and who made the
United Nations give him that honor somuch as the pages of a book.
Nothing goes back to yesterday. Everythingchanges, because we have nothing left to

(04:47):
tell our listeners to relax and inpeace listen to us at nothing like a
book. We don' t liketo travel. This is why Masiel Delgado
Linares, a psychologist and author ofthe book The Silence of God and the
Absent Guilt of Your Post- DivorceJourney, is joining us on today'

(05:10):
s journey. Welcome to nothing likea book. Thank you very much,
Juan Carlos. Glad you invited meto your podcast. Nothing like a book
you know I' m if youfollow and good. It' s an
honor for me to be here withyou. Today we are going to see
this episode is dedicated to peace.Marriages usually start in peace. Always,

(05:30):
but when they break up, whenthe time comes for divorce, you end
up in peace and others end upin war. What are the most frequent
causes why a divorce ends in whatwould be a war between the spouses.
Well, Juan Carlos. Marriage andsentimental relationships are often seen as fundamental pillars

(05:53):
in a person' s life.However, the reality is that many of
these unions come to an end,either because of differences, irreconcilable, communication
problems, infidelities other circumstances, whichall of them tend to be quite painful.
When a relationship comes to an end, whether through legal divorce or a

(06:15):
sentimental breakup, emotions can be overwhelming, as you can feel sadness, go
to medium guilt for the future,among others, the divorce process breakup can
be especially difficult due to the depthof the emotional bond that breaks and the
drastic changes that involve in daily life, from legal and financial issues to the

(06:42):
reconfiguration of family and social life.The challenges are numerous and, as a
former overwhelming, I believe that,summarizing, the main factors that can affect
inner peace after a divorce are intenseemotions, loss of ties, economic problems
and difficulty in managing the relationship withcouples, especially when involved. In view

(07:12):
of this situation you are describing,what is the starting point for starting to
recover the pastra is to a divorceof any of the spouses. Well,
each case is different, but ina world that often pressures us to meet
certain standards of success and happiness,divorce can be perceived as a stigma or

(07:33):
personal failure. However, I believeit must be remembered that our life experiences,
including the difficult ones, are partof what makes us human and deserve
to be honored and accepted. Iinvite you to reflect as a starting point

(07:54):
to begin to recover that peace fromwhich you talk about who we really are
and what we want in life,freeing us from external expectations and connecting us
to our inner truth. This processof self- exploration and authenticity is essential
to heal the emotional wounds of divorceand, above all, to find peace

(08:18):
and fullness on the way forward,For while divorce and sentimental ruptures can be
devastating experiences, they can also bepowerful catalysts for personal growth and transformation.
Instead of succumbing to pain and despair, we can choose to see these experiences

(08:39):
as opportunities to revalue our lives,learn valuable lessons and reinvent ourselves. I
believe that the starting point is tosee it as a process of transformation,
providing us with practical tools and inspiringperspectives to find the meaning of ons and

(09:01):
beauty in the midst of chaos.We must help ourselves to rebuild from the
inside out by cultivating greater self-awareness, compassion and resilience in the process.
You made some relationship between the sociallevel or the level of studies with
the way to overcome a traumatic divorce, it is a bad caqueja to everyone

(09:24):
equally regardless of studies of economic level, because looking when I started with my
own divorce process, being a psychologist, also investigates regarding this type of studies.
There was or was not. Andwhat I realized is that the social
or educational level does not seem tobe a determining factor in how to overcome
a traumatic divorce, because it istrue that I found that various studies show

(09:50):
that divorce is a complex process thataffects people from all social strata and from
all educational levels. Just like that. What does seem to have an important
role to play is the social supportpeople receive during and after the divorce process.
Those who have a support network,whether family members, friends or even

(10:11):
professionals, tend to adapt better tothe new situation and, on the contrary,
the lack of such support, especiallyfor women, may make it difficult
to overcome divorce. And other keyfactors may be the ability of former partners
to cooperate and agree on the managementof the high levels of conflict that often

(10:33):
accompany divorces, especially the most traumatic, regardless of social or educational origin.
It is stupid to think that divorceis not a complex process that requires a
series of coping and support strategies tobe overcome in a healthy way. What
a reader or reader will find inyour book in this book of God'

(10:56):
s silence and absent guilt or,as readers of the book will find me
a story about the process of overcomingafter a divorce. The book addresses the
emotional journey and, above all,the search for acceptance and inner peace after

(11:18):
the end of a relationship. Throughoutall its pages, I have tried to
guide readers through the different aspects ofthe post- divorce journey, from accepting
the end of the relationship to rebuildingidentity and seeking a new purpose in life.

(11:39):
With a mixture, then, ofthe knowledge that I have as psychologist
the first person narrative humor wisdom.The book offers deep reflections and practical exercises
that I myself have designed to helpreaders heal and grow from that transformative experience.

(12:01):
What motivated you to write it.Well, divorce and emotional breakups are
deeply challenging emotional experiences that can shakethe foundations of our lives and leave scars
that take time to heal. However, in the midst of pain and confusion,
they can also represent, as Isaid before, because I am very

(12:24):
optimistic in that sense, opportunities forself- describing and rebirth. And in
that context it is the one inwhich the book is born. I confess
Juan Carlos that I do not beginto write a book, I begin to
deepen in a professional way through theknowledge that contributes me to being a psychologist
and the chaos of my own thatI was living, I begin to deepen

(12:50):
to be able to order my owntools and know how to deal with two
issues that worried me and that wasthe zero contact with children and the management
of guilt. Once I begin towrite it, it becomes what today is
the book that, without a doubt, and not because I say it,
but the readers of the first editionthat we are already fortunately going for the

(13:11):
second, acquires an unestimated value,as it offers a comforting guide for those
who face this difficult transition. Andso the book is born. You could
explain this to me about the missingguilt. What do you mean by this
concept, what do you enter inthe title do look. The stigmatization of

(13:31):
divorce in society is a fact thatis highly proven. When you make the
decision to end a relationship that canlead to the sentimental breakup, you have
to deal not only with making thedecision, but with managing the guilt of
a little breaking up with the Disneymyth that we have been sold from the

(13:54):
perfect family. So, that stigmaof society that is right now, is
on the street. Let' sgo because the concept of divorce, even
if we are in a society ofthe 21st century, there are still facets
that have not been overcome and theguilt of that person, although within history

(14:22):
both are protagonists of the rupture.The decision maker has to manage the guilt
of making that decision, even ifit is the most correct decision. That
' s what I mean by absentguilt. It is necessary to properly manage
the guilt, which is not reallya fault, it is a management of
a decision, because Marsil Delgado Linares, psychologist and author, as we said
in the book of the silence ofthe god of absent guilt, your journey

(14:46):
of potivo prcio thanks for having beenwith us, and let us hope that
this book helps to recover peace,both men and women who go through what
would be that break of the marriagebond. Thank you very much, Juan
Carlos. Nothing like a book,we follow the footsteps of women in literature.

(15:18):
In the month of December of theyear nineteen hundred and ninety- two
was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize toRigoberta Menchú tum The money he obtained together
with the Galardón invested in creating theVicente Menchú Foundation, whose purpose is to
contribute to world peace based on theethnic, political and cultural diversity of the
peoples of the world. Berta Menchúwas born in the year nineteen hundred and

(15:43):
fifty- nine in the department ofQuiché, Guatemala, which made her not
only the first indigenous to get aNobel, but also the youngest woman to
receive him. Belonging to a Mayanpeasant family, its childhood and youth were
marked by poverty and discrimination due toits indigenous origin. He began working at
the age of five, and duringhis adolescence he devoted himself to domestic service

(16:07):
in a country. At that timehe was subjected to a war between his
army and a popular guerrilla. Hisfather, his mother and one of his
brothers were tortured and murdered by thegovernment, which led Rigoberta to engage in
numerous social actions to denounce the greateconomic and social inequalities that existed in his
country. These activities forced her intoexile in the year one thousand eighty-

(16:33):
one to Mexico, from where shecontributed with the UN to the elaboration of
the Declaration of the Rights of IndigenousPeoples and to the organization of different international
meetings on the rights of indigenous communities. She is currently an active member of
the Nobel Peace Prize Women' sCollective initiative, of which she is a

(16:55):
co- founder, of the Fundaciónps YAM and of the Mayan women'
s political association. His life experiencewas collected by Elizabet Burgos in a book
entitled" My Name is Rigoberta Menchú", and so my conscience was born.
With her publication, the indigenous leadersought to denounce the suffering of the
indigenous people of Guatemala, which sheachieved thanks to the media impact that caused

(17:19):
her testimony in the book. Inthe year nineteen hundred and ninety- eight,
an American journalist named David Stol questionedthe veracity of everything Rigoberta Menchú recounts
in her biography, providing data thatcontradicts aspects narrated by her. However,
Elizabeth Burgos argues that Rigoberta did notlie, as the writer herself told in

(17:41):
statements to the country' s newspaper. Rigoberta can' t be said to
be lying. He is a personwho belongs to another cultural tradition, to
a pre- literary tradition of orality, in which history has a collective character.
The facts are stored in that commonmemory and belong to the community.
Everything has happened, even though ithas not necessarily happened to him. Her.

(18:03):
Her family knows what poverty is,even if her people were not as
miserable as she presents it. Thereare people whose children have died, hugged,
parents who have died executed by themilitary, and that' s what
Rigoberta counts. Regardless of this controversy, Rigoberta Menchú managed to focus on the
problems faced and suffered by the indigenouscommunities of Guatemala and the entire American continent.

(18:41):
Nothing like a book, it isa podcast sponsored by Canarian Government library
led by Juan Carlos Saavedra and DanielMartínez. Nothing like a goddamn book forbidden

(19:03):
books, full of legends and mysteries. Among the books that we can consider
cursed by their harmful consequences in thehistory of humanity, one stands out greatly,
published in the year nineteen hundred andtwenty- five. Well that'

(19:37):
s what we' re talking aboutin the book Main My Struggle, written
by Hitler himself. In it,the author describes his ideology and various aspects
of his life, including how hebecame anti- Semitic. My struggle advances
what would be the basis of Nazism, centered on the discredit of parliamentary democracy
and hatred of Jews and communists.Curious to observe, as almost no one

(20:02):
realized the future he was looking forfor Germany Adolphiller, since in his pages
he spoke of the need to extendGerman territory to the east of Europe and
of the importance of expelling all Jewsfrom his country as the only possible way
to guarantee the future of a greatGermany. Once Kadol Hitler came to power,
he put into practice the idiary containedin miluch to wipe out the Jews

(20:25):
and expand Germany as violently and cruellyas possible. The result was the death
of millions of Jews and the beginningof World War II in the year two
thousand and fifteen. At seventy yearssince the death of its author, the
book was declared in the public domain, so it has been reissued, as
it was written without added critical comments, as had been done previously. Hunfrey

(21:18):
Kop was born in Siena, Italy. He performed military service in the Canadian
army and during the three years inWorld War I fought and did so in
battles such as Amiens. Although Cobbwas a screenwriter, he wrote two novels,
one of which Roads of Glory wouldbe taken to the cinema in nineteen

(21:44):
hundred and fifty- seven by StanleyKubrick, prepared ah pudden knights members of
the Tribunal. There are times whenI feel ashamed to belong to the human

(22:06):
race and this history develops on theFrench front. In one thousand and sixteen,
a suicide attack by the French armyagainst German positions on the hill of
the ants. A strategic point ofvital importance for the development of World War
I. This attack becomes a shockingfailure. Sir, let me suggest what

(22:32):
you can do with that elevator,Colonel Tac. Apologize right now or I
' ll arrest you. I apologizefor not being entirely honest with you.
I apologize for not revealing my truefeelings. I apologize, sir, for
not telling you before that you're a degenerate, an old sadist and
even though I sink into the depthsof hell, I won' t ask

(22:55):
you any more. Apologies, ColonelDux, you disappoint me. You have
lost your acuity because of sentimentality.You wanted to save those men and you
weren' t going behind the voyeurstand. He' s a real idealist,
Colonel, I' m sorry.We' re making a war we

(23:15):
have to win. We had toshoot those men. You' ve accused
General Miró and I' ve askedhim to account for what I' ve
done wrong. If you cannot answerthat question, I pity you to teach
the troops exemplary punishment. Captain Mirú, one of the main perpetrators of the

(23:41):
attack, summons a court- martial. Three soldiers randomly chosen by their superiors
are falsely accused of cowardice before theenemy and face the death penalty by firing.
The General turns judgment into a smokescreento hide his own failure. Fisman

(24:04):
t Bocha tan Leven Steven Talissin hopon on Lin wrote about the movie that

(24:32):
Gloria trails. It is a pacifistclaim as visceral and critical as it is
honest and shocking about the absurdity andhorror of war and the inhuman limits of
the military hierarchy houses in nothing likea book. We open our trunk of

(25:14):
memories, curiosities and literary novelties.In our particular trunk we have found a
poem in whose title the word peaceappears and which, curiously, cost its

(25:34):
author and a journalist a court-martial. In the year nineteen hundred and
sixty- seven, in a columnin the Diario de Las Palmas, by
Salvador Sagazeta, the poem Council ofPeace by Pedro Lescano was published. Immediately,
both the complainant and the journalist whohad facilitated their dissemination were arrested and
brought to military trial. Salvador Sagasetawas acquitted in a first court- martial,

(26:00):
but after the repeat of the trialhe was sentenced to two years in
prison, a sentence he served infull. Upon his return to the Canary
Islands, he was informed that heshould join the battalion of prisoners in the
Sahara, so the journalist decided togo into exile in Italy. For his
part, Pedro Lezcano was condemned tothe rest of the house for having written
a poem criticizing militarism. Next wehear in the voice of Tomás Galindo the

(26:26):
poem Peace Council boys, that youdream of the prowess and martial glories descended
from the steed throw the sword.Heroes no longer exist or are anywhere.
The time will come zero to beheroes any day, crossing any mysterious accounting

(26:49):
street will close a balance, decreenothing among the mysterious accounting men. When
in the deep cellars brave and cowardlypray up high by a breath of air,
neither God, who is nearer,will hear them anymore. Denial of

(27:12):
names, denial of sentences. Ifyou are not spring, foam or wind,
forces of earth, sea and air, if the gale are not,
neither the seed nor the rain thatis born of the usurping seas are you
of the noble and elementary homicidal wordswithout guilt. They disguise themselves with the

(27:37):
color of the earth and of thetrees, with flowery branches on their foreheads
as in the bacchanals, but thesongs inspired by the must of blood are
not joyful. Hey, guys,popey dreamers, listen to me. The
chest is the designated place for thebalor of the martyrs. The heroic ship

(28:03):
chest rumbles the loving heart, wherethe lead penetrates cleanly as in the temple
of blood, but dirty of mudand excrement. The statue of Mars falls,
your definitions, your wise truths,The intelligence is pus on the foreheads

(28:26):
of thousands of corpses and on theland paid for by death, I have
only seen the flower of hunger grow, boys, dreamers, come down,
the steed of the sabre, whenthe boots step on the olive trees and

(28:47):
its symbol crush take his sap,thick, throw it into the sea and
you will see as a plate psychoeducationstorms, two zero Bibliotherapy, Psychology,
education and books. With Elizabeth LópezMira we bring you this illustrated album that

(29:07):
is super beautiful and besides, Iliked a lot, because you have never
wondered if sometimes when we meet peoplewho, well, maybe they are a
little settled in the complaint or inthe criticism, they have really become a
bad pipe because something has happened tothem that have led them to feel and
act. So yes, it seemsthat they are always with the branch turned

(29:32):
as you say, and many timeswe have boys or girls in the classroom
who, perhaps, their behavior isnot, because as we consider it should
be the behavior that we could alsotalk about that a lot, because that
must weigh a lot. But wehave children, because they are naughty and

(29:52):
we already label them. Sometimes wetend to label them as always misbehaving and
say hello to the child. Inthe end we' re hanging a label
and we don' t stop tofind out what' s behind that behavior,
because sometimes we have kids in theclassroom who use that word of disruptives.
What an ugly word to use witha child and an adult. But,

(30:14):
well, it' s a veryugly word and we don' t
stop to see what' s behindit. And that' s what he
comes to talk to us about.The bad pipe. Bad pipe is a
pipe, it' s very,very bad. A Dani look I'
ll tell you how far the badpipe becomes, because Look she tells you
how bad I am you want toknow, because I never return things.

(30:36):
I' m late everywhere for longjokes that aren' t funny. I
' m jumping my tail, lyingabout nonsense. Then of course, no
one wanted to be with the badpipe. But she, she says,
wasn' t like that. Inher life something happened that turned her into
a bad pipe. But there's one fantastic thing about the human being

(30:59):
and it' s the choice andthe decision to change the bad pipe.
One day he suddenly says but Idon' t want to be like this
anymore, and then he decides littleby little, because he realizes that he
won' t be able to dothings right always, but he' s
slowly making decisions. Like, maybehe was late, but I' m
sorry. Maybe I' m lyingabout something, but I' m sorry.

(31:22):
I thank you. Please ask.So it' s those little gestures
that make a difference. Each oneis as it is. But there are
gestures that make a difference, andlittle by little we can change. So
what this book has taught me andwhat it can teach in the classroom and
or in families, children and adultsin general. First, that we have
the choice to change, Second,that we should not be putting labels or

(31:48):
judging, that we live like allthe time, with the judgment in the
mouth towards the other and that weshould go a little deeper into the other
person, because we see one part, but we don' t know what
has happened in his life to leadhim to act in a certain way and
how important is the adult figure sothat when you feel as well as a

(32:10):
bad pipe the child. The girlfeels like with that space of trust so
she can wonder why you' replaying like this. Right. Yeah,
I like it a lot when sometimessome kid, because he does something you
say you have to correct that behavior. Not because we' re educating him.
I love to tell them because theytell me I don' t act
like that, because I' mbad. I tell him you don'

(32:30):
t act like that because you're wrong. You want to find out
why you got it wrong to changeit. And then they stay like a
little bit. But you' resupposed to be angry. I get something
mad at myself I don' tget something by saying it to you.
This isn' t right, thisis wrong, because it hurts uncle and
hurts each other. How we canchange it and in the end it'
s also a little bit to figureout why you all do at some point,

(32:52):
Dani, we' ve been badpieces. Of course because there are
many children who are happy and thereare many children, well because because of
circumstances of life they suffer and sometimesthey become a bad pipe just to say
look here I am, even ifit is this way. Then it'
s a way to raise your hand. Yeah, it' s a way
to raise your hand. It's what' s in there. Go
a little further. I would likeand it is also an adult learning,

(33:14):
to learn to change the look andnot to go with judgment or criticism towards
the other, but to go withthe look more worth what may be behind,
because also I have wounds and youand everything, and I would love
that at some point, when somethinghappens, someone stops and says uy what
has happened so that he already actslike that no, then the bad pipe

(33:37):
I love because I think it isboth for children and adults. I,
as an adult, said wow whata gift such grandeur has charmed me in
nothing like a festive literary book momentsfor history and literature. On 18 July

(34:05):
each year, Nelson Mandela International Dayis celebrated, according to the agreement of
the United Nations Assembly, in orderto honour its contribution to the culture of
peace and freedom at the global level. The election of that day was made
coinciding with the date of his birth. The biography of Nason Mandela is well
known, as he was the firstBlack President of South Africa and Nobel Peace

(34:29):
Prize winner in the year nineteen hundredand ninety- three. After spending twenty
- seven years in a cell ofonly five square meters for defending equality between
whites and blacks in his country,in which the Black population was subjected to
a ferocious Aparthei Aware of the importanceof books as elements of social change,
Nerson Mandell took advantage of literature tobring his ideas to the greatest possible number

(34:52):
of people. Among his works wefind letters from the prison. The color
of freedom. It is not easy, the path of freedom, the long
road to freedom. Conversations with myselfand Nelson Mandela for himself. The book
of authorized citations. Nerson Mandela attachedgreat importance to the education of children and

(35:14):
they dedicated one of their books,entitled My African Tales, of which he
said it is my wish that thevoice of storyteller. Never die in Africa
that children never lose the ability toexpand their horizons of the world with the
magic of stories. Nothing like abook, we traveled to a place called

(35:49):
Samborondon to talk about children' sand youth literature, stories and stories for
all audiences, reading for a betterworld, children' s and youth'
s literature and sustainable development goals.It is a book published by Tirán Humanities,

(36:10):
coordinated by María del Carmen Encinas Reguero. One of the chapters that make
up this book is a proposal foran analysis of children' s rights and
sustainable development goals in children' sand young people' s literature on war.
It is written by María Poyol Vallsand Mariona Grael. They are professors

(36:38):
of hytroscritura, didactics, language,the International University of Catalonia, its Faculty
of Education Sciences. We approached heras a researcher in the field of children
' s and young people' sliterature and had a free and comforting conversation.
I found in her voices refugs andfelt very identified with her words.

(37:04):
We always listen, first to ProfessorMarion Grail and then to Maria Poyol Valls.
One of the first questions we wantedto ask them is because even many

(37:27):
educational, social and cultural sectors donot give children' s and young people
' s literature the power to reversethe landscape. But, on the other
hand, in many places children's and young people' s literature is
true and censored. This way ofdiluting. As you well say, we

(37:49):
firmly believe that when we did researchon children' s rights and the values
that are implied, we realized thatwe worked under the idea that many schools
already existed from this, because manyof them go through educationally speaking fashions,
they see fashions and topics that arecontroversial issues, that all are important,

(38:13):
because they are all important. Andthen, well, many times now came
the fashion of all that is sosustainability, because we live in a society
in which we need to be conscious. Since we had to take care of
ourselves, we came from a fashionin which we had to vindicate emotions and
there were many books of emotions.So, I think that the education sector

(38:38):
has a tendency to follow the fashionsand needs that boys and girls have,
and that makes us give up ondifferent issues that are fundamental. This,
on the one hand and then,on the other, our welfare society has
made us see that good, then, that we live and that children have

(39:01):
their rights and their duties that wehave. At times I think we live
a little bit in the abyss ofwhat in history, in the idea that
that is already overcome. When wethen realize that many of these rights are
not fulfilled on a continuous basis orare not fulfilled in our territory and,

(39:24):
in addition, they are not fulfilledalso with families or with the same educational
institutions. So I think that whenyou realize it, you start to revalue
past stories, stories that allow usto understand or give opportunities for boys and

(39:45):
girls to have a space in whichto find themselves. It is very important
that in a society there is thisdebate about what the limits of children'

(40:05):
s and young people' s literatureshould be, what their objectives or functions
should be. And at the sametime it is very necessary for society to
be able to give intelligent answers tothese questions. Of course, traditionally,
until more decades ago, the valuegiven to children' s litature was a

(40:30):
very moralizing value, very indoctrinating.This literature had been instrumentalized to convey certain
messages, certain ideology. This isto a certain extent understood because the creators
of literature are already writers and illustratorsfrom the moment they are people, since

(40:58):
they can convey a certain ideology,sometimes in a more subtle way, sometimes
in a more open way. Butwe have to be clear that literature inevitably
conveys in a certain amount the ideologyof its creators. The problem comes when

(41:20):
the will to transmit this ideology exceedsan aesthetic will, that is, when
literary work has its value mainly inthe message that its creators want to convey
and not so much in its aesthetic, creative literary quality. This is what

(41:42):
we have to take into account whenselecting children' s and young people'
s literature. When we actuate theseworks, we have to keep in mind
that at present, when we offera book to n a, a child
or a young man, we areoffering him a tool to develop his critical

(42:06):
sense. And his critical sense canbe developed when he interprets these literary works
And if he is able to interpretthese works and develop his critical sense when
he reads them, then it willbe easier for him also to have developed

(42:28):
this critical sense in his day today, in his real life. And
this is one of the arguments thatwe often offer to defend reading, to
defend that young people read, sothat the skills they develop when interpreting literary

(42:50):
works impact on the skills they needin their day. I firmly believe and
I am sure that many of thosewho also listen to us that children'
s and young people' s literatureis capable of transforming, but I also

(43:13):
believe that there are few courageous andcommitted books that treat children as active citizens.
You agree with this statement. Yes, children' s and young people
' s literature believe that it respondsto many real situations, that is,
stories, stories told, illustrated algomyshelp us interpret the day- to-

(43:37):
day situation in which we find ourselvesand often give solutions to situations that we
have not yet experienced. So,well, he who has read a book
has criticized it, he has analyzedit, he has thought about it with
others. These books and these realitiesthat they have thought about and have criticized

(43:58):
together when they are found daily,have alternatives, even if they have not
lived them. Therefore, literature ingentle and youthful has a rather important value.
It does not help us to developcognitive and affective abilities that allow us
to try to give answers situations thatwe have not yet experienced at that time,

(44:21):
but that the situation when we findourselves, we are able to identify
it and, moreover, give ananswer. We are increasingly detecting that there
are more brave books, as yousaid by putting this adjective, which very
clearly defines the type of book yourefer to. They are books that represent

(44:47):
children as autonomous people, people whohave the capacity to act, the ability
to decide, people who are citizencity from the moment they are born,
they are not tiny people who willbe citizens when they are adults, no,

(45:09):
no, they are citizens from themoment they are born and therefore they
have their voice within society and deserveto be heard. These courageous books also
treat the reader as an autonomous person, as a person capable of thinking,

(45:34):
that is, they are books thatat the same time represent young people as
courageous autonomous people who can think forthemselves, but at the same time to
the reader that in this case,since we are talking about books that are

(45:55):
intended for children and young people,readers are also treated as such people,
which is also very important and Iwas asking to see this responsibility on whom
it falls, because it is distributedamong all actors within the process of creating

(46:20):
a book, from the beginning ofimagining this book until it reaches the hands
of its reader. Therefore, toa certain extent all mediators have a certain
responsibility in offering this type of booksto their readers, each to the extent
of his or her possibilities, accordingto the role he or she is developing

(46:47):
within this process, why children's and young people' s literature has
abandoned enthusiasm begin that they did notuse the Convention on the Rights of the
Child when they were promulgated. Ofcourse, children' s rights are a
subject that for many years has beenworking in many and many ways and often

(47:14):
in ways such as a bit taxed, in which the child was a passive
subject. Then we agree that boysand girls are active citizens and therefore are
boys and girls who can act andunderstand reality from their perspective and from their
level. But they do understand realityand we have to make the participants feel

(47:37):
relevant to this Community in which weare living. So, the books.
We have discovered that there are manybooks that talk about the rights of boys
and girls and that these books allowthem to understand that they have many rights,
but also many duties and that Ido not know if I do not

(48:00):
agree with an agreement with what youcomment, but I could say that there
are more and more books that canbe interpreted and can represent many controversial realities,
which allow the boy and the girlto sit and position themselves and position
themselves also allows them to decide howthey want to address their reality. So,

(48:24):
I think that more and more booksthat, although not directly addressed because
they are not knowledge books, donot directly address the knowledge of the rights
of boys and girls, Yes theyaddress many issues related to the claim of
the boy and the girl, asit should be, as I should be
able to think and that I believethat with a good mediator they can think

(48:51):
differently and can think and criticize andthink critically together with others. It is
very interesting to ask this question.Why does it seem that children' s

(49:12):
rights are not being defended as clearlyas they were a few years ago?
Or to put it another way,why a few years ago, when the
Convention on the Rights of the Childin nineteen hundred and eighty- nine was
passed from society it became much clearerthat these rights must be defended or I

(49:40):
was fighting you to defend them Andnow this struggle, this defense, seems
to have been erased or it haslost its strength. One of the reasons
that can explain this situation is that, as fortunately, in recent years,

(50:05):
in more situations children can defend theirrights, because it may be that society
is not so aware that there isstill a long way to go. In
eighty- nine situations of lack ofchildren' s rights were more than today,

(50:29):
and for this reason some people atthe present time may not remember that
we are where we are thanks tothe fact that a few years ago many
people had the very clear ideas whenit comes to defending children' s rights.

(50:50):
But we seem to have forgotten thatthere is still a long way to
go. And for this reason theauthors of this canopetulo at a certain time,
because we present this question and weare alarmed at this situation. Both

(51:13):
Professor Marion Grail and Maria apoyul wereasked what advice they would give us when
it comes to finding or choosing booksto help raise awareness of peace and war
situations. This question is a trickquestion, not because of course, you
have reason to choose a good book. First you would say to have knowledge

(51:37):
and many times good, because parents, you say oysters I now what book
do I take? No, Iwould say that they are books that allow
children to enjoy, first, thatit is a space in which they can
develop their aesthetic pleasure and then,because also this view of reading as an

(51:57):
entertainment and that while they entertain,they have possibilities that they create mental representations.
Then, therefore, I would alsorecommend that, as far as possible,
children, i e books, bebooks that are different from what they
think and that are not controversial andthat allow them to react in some case

(52:22):
or reflect with company, with parentsand teachers, then, that allow them
to present different mental ideas, therefore, different spaces in which the child can
respond to solutions or solve situations thathad a great question and did not know

(52:43):
how to give an answer. And, on the other hand, let there
be words and let them enter words. Therefore, there is a question of
linguistic skills, that they introduce wordsand written ideas from a photo that will
allow them to increase as for amore communicative and linguistic part and, therefore,

(53:05):
that they assume new words that werenot so far their own and that,
in one way or another, theycan try to introduce them in their
own, in their own vocabulary andin their own day- to- day.
For I would encourage all people whohave to make this kind of book
available to young people to look forresources how to be informed about novelties,

(53:32):
about books that already exist and that, for example, some of the ways
to be informed is therefore to havea trusted bookstore, a physical bookstore that
is close to their home or thatis a bookstore that they can go to
with some ease and that can establisha certain trust relationship with the bookseller and

(54:00):
can ask for advice on books thatexist related to this topic. Of course,
not only bookshops, but also libraries. I fervently encourage all listeners from
Podcast to go to public libraries andask for help from librarians, who are

(54:28):
people who have unstoppable knowledge, arepeople who can provide unique information and ask
them for advice to find such books. They can also consult with teachers with

(54:52):
other people in this field and alsocreate these spaces, these moments of debate
on children' s literature, whichcan be so enriching and which at the
same time can be useful for specificissues like this. No, therefore,

(55:13):
seek advice from professional people who canhelp us and also take into account all
the resources that we can find onthe Internet, to search for websites that
are reliable in which you can findrecommendations and information about this area. I

(55:40):
personally believe that there is little children' s and young people' s literature
published in Spain critical of the civilwar and the Franco dictatorship, which caused
so much death and pain. Itis and if so, because sometimes society
is not prepared to work on theseissues. The civil war and everything that

(56:04):
happened is very recent, that is, we do know that many years ago,
but it is very recent. Andthere' s a lot of people
who aren' t ready. Manytimes, when we say that there are
issues that are not dealt with inschools, they are not dealt with for
a reason, and that the teachersare not prepared. It is not prepared
or to respond to situations, thatis, because there are many issues that

(56:27):
are not addressed in schools for fearof what parents will say, for fear
of what others will think, forfear of not knowing how to address,
not knowing how to answer uncomfortable questionsthat children can ask innocently. Sure.
It' s a good topic andI think publishers might start to worry about

(56:51):
trying to edit books in this category. I believe that yes, that there
is children' s and young people' s literature that we are critical of,
I raised the civil war and notonly the civil war, but the
era of Francoism. The literature thatI know best is Catalan literature, and

(57:13):
I have found that more than thirtychildren' s and youth novels located during
the civil war and Francoism can befound and that they can really situate the

(57:35):
current young reader, who may bevery far away from them in the period
of the civil war of Francoism,being very misinformed, because it can be
useful for them to enjoy the noveland at the same time to know the
situation of these times. Not justnovels. There is also, for example,

(58:00):
a collection of illustrated Catalan albums calledthe Grants War or the Majors War,
published by tantagora in which also illustratedbooks, as these themes are touched.
So if you look for it,you do, especially novels and,

(58:24):
as I said, some illustrated ones, although it seems a little more difficult,
possibly because somehow we still think thatthe illustrated albums are intended for the
smallest ones and that from a certainage, since they are already autonomous when
reading, because they no longer needor no longer want to read illustrated books,

(58:49):
when lately we are seeing that manyillustrated books are being published also for
older ones. Not that it's a gender that' s accurate for
all ages. It is expanding moreand more. Therefore, I encourage authors,

(59:10):
creators, illustrators to take this themeinto account when creating their works,
but we also have to take intoaccount all those that already exist, which
are quite enough, I believe asthey may have intuited. We are very

(59:32):
happy and grateful that Marione Agrael andMaría Poyol Valls have been present with their
experience, their research and their reflectionson nothing like a book in our space
of San Borondón, and they havewanted to say goodbye in this way.

(59:52):
What an easy question and how difficultto answer, because the children' s
and youth' s literature came tome when I grew up and came to
me as a mother. Well Icall myself as a researcher, but also
as a mother and I have comewith a lot of emotion, with a

(01:00:13):
great desire to know more that thereis a world to explore, to know
and because it gives many opportunities tothose children who may not like to read,
but that through children' s andyouth' s literature, they can
enter a world of beauty, aesthetics, language and understanding the world in a

(01:00:35):
different way. The children' sand young people' s literature has transformed
me as a reader and has givenme many opportunities to approach the children around
me, both my children and thechildren in schools, and has allowed me
to understand how they think. Andit' s allowed me to understand how
I think. Also so the children' s and youth literature. I think

(01:01:00):
she' s wonderful and she'll live and live with her. Before
finishing the questions, I would liketo thank Daniel Martín and the public libraries
of the Canary Islands for the opportunityto participate in this podcast. Thank you

(01:01:20):
very much and, as a farewell, I would like to share with all
listeners how children' s and youngpeople' s literature has taught me on
a personal level, because we couldsay that it has been a faithful,

(01:01:42):
very faithful literature. By this hemeans that he has accompanied me throughout my
life and at every stage of mylife. My maturity has allowed me to
access children' s and young people' s literature with a different focus or
depth, depending on the maturative levelat which I was at, according to

(01:02:06):
my age. Therefore, the labelof children' s or youth literature,
instead of constricting something that happens veryoften in my case, may rather indicate
that it is a literature for allages, that began accompanying me when I

(01:02:31):
was small, but throughout my entirelife, until now that I am an
adult, has been with me andhelped me to grow and understand the world.

(01:03:00):
Nothing like a book. It isa podcast sponsored by the Ministry of
Culture and financed by the European Unionwith the funds nex INERATIONEU, led by
Juan Carlos Saavedra and Daniel Martín