205 - Dune Part 2...part 2. (And the Independent Film Festival Boston)

Dune Part 2 was so epic that our fans demanded more! Brian Tamm, the Executive Director of the Independent Film Festival Boston joins the show to discuss all things Dune and help Don convert Trevor into loving David Lynch's 1984 version.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Trevor Trevor. Trevor, Trevor,After what you pulled last week, I
don't ever want to talk to youagain. What did I do? Folks?
Don and I went to go seeDune Part two last week. It

(00:20):
was my third time seeing it,it was his second time seeing it.
And I took him to an Imaxtheater, a real Imax theater, full
Imax, the one four three onefour two aspect ratio, eighty feet tall
screen, incredible experience. And uh, all he did was every five minutes

(00:42):
lean over and make some crappy joke. He would check his watch obsessively.
He shook his knee the entire time, like he was a horny teenager and
like, and you could feel thatin the seats next to you, and
so I'm shaking it. What Ipromise you? I promised you. Right

(01:08):
when the credits rolled, I turnedto you and I said, I will
never go see a movie with youagain. And then ten minutes later I
agreed to go see some What didI agree to go see with Civil War?
I think Civil War? Yeah,which I have no interest in.
Trevor. We had such a greatoutpouring of love for our Dune Part two
part one episode A few episodes agothat you know what I think we should

(01:29):
do Dune Part two, Part two? What do you say? Wow,
that was a hell of a transition. Good for you, Don, broadcasting
skills all the way. I haven'tlistened to anything you've said in the last
twenty seconds. Damn it, Trevor. Oh God, I hate you so
much. Well, it's you.We can cross off the reading. I
watch almost everything in the majority ofthis terrible What is this podcast about?

(01:49):
In my word, he's turf,damn it, Trevor. All right,
hi everyone, and welcome to thisepisode of No When scenario. I am
Don and lurking around in the shadowsis Trevor, And this is Dune Part
two, Part two. Trevor.I can't believe Donald again. Oh,

(02:10):
don't call me that. I cannotbelieve we're doing Dune again. I love
done. I can't wait for today'sguests. What's going If it's not Star
Trek, you would talk Dune allday long. Today we are. Our
guest is Brian Taum, the executivedirector of the Independent Film Festival Boston.

(02:32):
Throughout the year, they have alot of screenings and film festivals. They
have one small festival called the FallFocus, but in the spring, specifically
this year May first through the eighththey have their annual Spring Festival. Lots
of great movies, lots of guests, and I meet a lot of great

(02:53):
filmmakers there every year. Cards onthe Table. I volunteer for the festival.
I do a lot of work.I do a lot of work for
them. And Brian is here totalk about science fiction in the independent exhibition
world, but he's really here totalk about his love, our love,

(03:20):
or David Lynch's. I like tocall it Dune nineteen eighty four, which
totally drives done nuts. What anepic movie for its time, and looking
back on it, truly a masterpieceof a film with some problems. But
I love it and Trevor will learnto love it as well. I mean,
I'll agree it does have some problems, and one of those problems is

(03:45):
that it exists. But you knowwhat, Trevor, I feel like,
let's let's leave the Dune. Talkto Brian. Anything else going on in
your world? Oohr, is thatyou giving me a cue for some No?
No, no, that's not whati'man. Don't do it. Don't
do it, don do you knowwhat time it is, God, it's
time for Trev's tangent. Now,this is gonna be interesting one Don,

(04:10):
because usually the rule is that Don'snot allowed to comment at all. He
does anyways because he's but because he'sa jerk. But to bleep these out,
you know. But I'm actually gonnabring Don into this one. And
it's a it's a it's a questionthat I have that I find completely confounding.

(04:31):
Yes, sir, so, okay, you love Done eighty four?
You love it? David Lynch?Just do you think it's fantastic? I
enjoy it. It's fun movie.Do you think it's a great film.
You've told me it's a fun movie. Oh my god, it'spic You're not
running for president. You think it'sa great film, do you not?

(04:51):
Yes? I enjoy it. That'sall that matters. You just need to
enjoy art. People don't listen tothese snobs. You just need to enjoy
it. Okay. So, ifif you can enjoy a film, if
a lot of the a lot ofthe sci fi fans can and the and
granted, Done eighty four has moredetractors than supporters. It does even to

(05:13):
this day, as it's kind ofbeing reappraised and more people are coming out
and showing love for it, itstill has more detractors than supporters. What
I find so puzzling, and we'regoing to move over to another franchise,
is that there was another science fictionfilm that came out in nineteen eighty four
which I find to be I don'tI don't find it to be as wildly

(05:35):
entertaining as the sequel that came afterit. I don't find it to be
as as well made and well made, well acted, well crafted, and
unbelievably well written as the film thatcame before it. But what I don't
understand is that there is a lotof I don't want to say hate,

(05:57):
but a lot of people dismiss StarTrek three the Search for Spock, a
film that I find I was justwatching some of it the other day.
I find it to be ridiculously entertaining, like and anything. Let me go
through, let me go nice,let me go no, no hold on,
let me go through. What Ifind entertaining about just before me staffled,

(06:21):
you have been criticizing me for talkingabout Star Trek, about bringing Star
Trek guests, And here you areand your little tear if youante it now
throw it in a star Trek thinglike what how dare you? Sir?
I don't understand why so many peoplehate this film. Number one, it's
it's Knee Moy's directorial debut as afilm, and it's a great directorial debut.

(06:44):
He just keeps it moving so thatyou don't have a second to think
about how dumb the thing is,you know that just came before, which
I think is a sign of astrong filmmaker. Just keeps it moving.
I think Shatner's performance and it isgood at all of you got rag On.
It's so stupid when he when hesays I have had enough of you,

(07:05):
That have had enough of you.But that is a far cry from
him screaming Khan in the Wrath ofCon. I mean, it's not narrowly
as ridiculous as that. And Ithink Wrath of CON's a masterpiece. But
the thing moves along. The opticaleffects are fantastic. You've got Doc Brown

(07:26):
doing a great performance as a klingon. James Horner's score, which is,
you know, kind of a continuationof his score for Wrath of Khan
is fantastic. The the escape fromuh, Space doc. That's one of
the best action sequences. I thinkout of the entire you know, original

(07:46):
cast movies, that action sequence isfantastic. I don't know, it's it.
What what is your problem with thatmovie? Well, I don't have
a big problem with that movie.Yes you do. You've ragged on me
before for a while. Oh,not at all. I I do like
the first hour a lot. Ithink the escape's wrong with the second hour.
Then. The only issue I havewith the second hour is other than
I've had enough of you. Ashe kicks him, it's like as he's

(08:11):
kicking him, as he's kicking him, it doesn't bother me that much.
No, I honestly think, andI'm talking for people I don't know this
is true. It's it might seemlike a lack of epic scope. Being
on the planet with the four ofthem on the Genesis planet and just being
like four people and some Klingons.It doesn't feel grand enough, you know.
I think the people who complain aboutit, again, I'm not one

(08:33):
of them, think it should beabout a massive thing. I do think
I have issues with some of theother like the jj Abrams, most recent
Star Trek films, in Darkness IntoDarkness did not have the scope, you
know, did not have the scopeand scale that I kind of want same
thing with like how Kirked Eyes andGenerations. It didn't feel three and three.

(08:54):
It didn't feel like it. Itdidn't have a big enough like impact
of like what the sacrifice was for. So I think that what it was.
But I'm with you, like youknow you're not because you've gripped on
that movie so much in the past. You're not with me. And and
then there's this kind of acceptance,there's kind of this accepted theory that,
like every other every other Trek filmis good and let me tell you that

(09:16):
thing goes out the window quickly.Come on, I got it down.
That's what's great. Live affects everyone, live effects. I think that that
film is very, very entertaining.Does it have it? IM sure I
can criticize it, and one criticscriticism would be after the I mean,

(09:41):
just Wrath of Khan is just anunbelievable script. It really is. It's
so perfect. And yes, theSearch Respose kind of it kind of takes
away from the emotional weight of Wrathof Khan. But I mean, I
still think that that what's been calledthe Genesis trilogy is just I mean,

(10:05):
well, four saves three, Imean not saves three. But I think
four, maybe three is is diswhat's the word isn't appreciated as much,
especially in light of how good fouris. Yeah, I mean maybe maybe
maybe four makes three better than itis. But it's the opposite. It
makes it worse than it is tosome people because four were so much fun

(10:26):
it two is so serious that threenever felt like it had a place like
wonder it back. But I'm withyou. I watch it honestly. I
don't hate it. Five. Idon't think it's a good movie. I
don't like the end of it.I don't hate it like it's a bastard
child. Truv's got a weird faceon. I mean again, it's not
a good movie, but I getit. I love I think they fixed

(10:50):
it. But I love when theStar Trek five title card comes around and
it shakes across the screen until itcenters itself. They didn't like Shatner didn't
I don't know. I love whenthey're on the rocket boots going up through
the floors and none of the numbersmatch. It's like floor seventy two,

(11:11):
Floor fifty six, four seventeen.Like, the only really redeeming thing in
that movie that I think it makesit me, not like hate it is
that one little bit with Shatner whenhe's with Bones and Spock and he says
I'm going to die alone. I'vealways known what I'm going to die alone.
Yeah, that sort of thing,that two minute scene and the thirty
seconds at the end of the movie, because that's the dynamic of the original

(11:33):
show. That saves it for me, saves all the bad story, all
the bad everything, the God,all that stuff. That little moment is
enough for me to be true quotetrue Star Trek. That feels good and
right and something useful. Okay,so I made him sorry, everybody here
is here is Dawn defending arguably,and most people would agree, not just

(11:58):
the worst Star Trek film out ofall the films, but one of the
worst movies of the eighties. Andnow we're going to bring on our guests
Brian tam so that he and Doncan defend one of the other worst sci
fi epics of the eighties, lyserDune David nineteen eighty four. Nineteen eighty

(12:20):
four masterpiece Dune and I keep callingit Dune eighty four because it makes don
think I'm calling it Wonder Woman eightyfour. Oh my god. Which,
wow, that's a bad movie too. It's better than June eighty four.
All right, let's get Brian outhere so he can back me up on
this masterpiece. Sorry, everyone stickaround, and for those that leave or
turn off the podcast, I don'tblame you. Brian tam I'm the executive

(12:46):
director of the Independent From Festival Boston. Okay, everyone, welcome back to
no win scenario. I'm sure wemade about two pennies on that ad break.
What would you say done? Twothree cents, one and a half,
one and a half. Do youdo fractions? I don't remember,
No, not at all. Idon't believe in them. I am so

(13:11):
happy to have Brian Tayum executive directorof the Independent Film Festival Boston, which
has been going on for twenty twoyears. I believe. Wow, so
our twenty first year, twenty firstyear, twenty one, lucky number twenty
one, legal to drink now.And I've been going to the festival since

(13:35):
two thousand and six, and fulldisclosure, I've been volunteering for the festival
for the last four or five years, and I would say, Brian is
a friend. Would you call usfriends? Brian, we're friends. Yeah,
Yeah, we're friends. Yeah.We have a much age a podcast,
an audio podcast. Because he isclenching his teeth responding to so,

(14:00):
uh, the reason we're having Brianon is because he knows, uh,
he knows a lot about cinema,independent film. Uh. He goes to
a lot of the major film festivals. And what we want, well,
we we initially want to talk abouthow science fiction fits into the independent cinema's

(14:22):
you know, kind of sphere.But then we're we're going to get to
another topic, uh, something thatI don't want to talk about, but
unfortunately we have to, and that'llbe revealed shortly. But first let me
start with a question, Brian.Do you you watch a lot of cinema?
I mean, you see everything.Do you like well, I mean,

(14:46):
stupid question, but do you likescience fiction? I do? I
like science fiction quite a bit.Yeah, hard hitting question there, Trevor.
I mean I'm not I don't watcheverything. I don't I tend not
to watch horror and I'm not thatin a fantasy, but I do like
science fiction quite a bit fantasy likeLord of the Rings. Yeah, yeah,
those movies are pretty bad. Theyhave an age. Well I never

(15:09):
could get through those books sound Ifound the movies tds. But that's yeah,
I agree. So what what Iwanted to ask is you and Nancy,
who's your programmer? Program director?Program director? You bring science fiction
to your festivals, but there there'sand to no fault of your own,

(15:33):
there doesn't seem to be a lotof science fiction out there in the independent
realm. Or is that not thecase? I mean, I guess it
depends how you define it. Ifeel like, like, you know,
kind of like your big budget kindof science fiction obviously is not doable.
But I mean I think there's movieslike you if you're gonna look at a
movie like Primer is science fiction.I think there is there is science fiction
to be found out there. Ithink some of it. To me,

(15:54):
I think some of the best sciencefiction is the stuff where they figure out,
like how do we you know,how do we do this that we
don't need to build a bunch ofsets or have a bunch of CGI or
whatever and just kind of have astory that's you know, science fiction ish.
So do you think that. Doyou think that's what's kind of limiting
filmmakers is that they just have thisidea that science fiction has to have a

(16:18):
look, it has to have bigproduction values, and they don't kind of
realize that there are that ideas alonecould get them into the science I mean,
Primer is a great example. It'sa phenomenal science fiction film. I
know for a fact Don hasn't seenit, and it I mean, it's
it's incredible and a lot of ittakes place in a garage. It's filled

(16:41):
with really cerebral, thought provoking ideasand nothing that you would consider science fiction.
I'm making the quotes of my fingers, but they're definitely science fiction.
Yeah, I mean I would thinkso. I mean, I think,
you know, to me, Ithink the best science fiction is sort of
always kind of metaphorical for what's happenednow anyways. I mean I think,
you know, like if you lookat like Doune the Spices, obviously it

(17:03):
can be read as a metaphor foroil. So I mean, I think
any good science fiction is always kindof saying, like, how can we
talk about what's happening now and justbuild sort of like a metaphor on it,
so there's a distance so we cantalk about in a way that's maybe
not quite as heavy handed. Han, that's really interesting. You brought up
Dune as an example. I wonderI wonder why that is. Don.
Do you have any questions or areyou just going to sit there on your

(17:26):
ass until you're the part that you'rewaiting for comes up. I do have
a question, Trevor, Thank you, Brian. I don't know if you
know this, but Trevor wants God. Helped produce a little sci fi short
film series. I don't know ifyou know this, and he he loved
it. He loved every second ofit. And part of that was me

(17:48):
having him hold a broom up infront of his face and walk back and
forth. He thought he was analien shadow, but I just wanted to
see him walking back and forth forabout three hours with a room in front
of his face in the shadows.But it was the highlight of his professional
career from what I'm told. Yeah, Don neglects to tell you that he
wrote and directed this film and Whoa. Let me tell you it's compelling material.

(18:11):
I mean, it's Whoa. Imean, you guys would totally totally
book it for your festival. Andby totally I mean absolutely not. You
guys would laugh at it. Excuseme, excuse me. Winner of many
awards, I don't recall them.It's yeah, exactly, exactly, you
can't recall them. As soon asI bring my press kid, I will

(18:33):
read the litany of them to you. But go on, okay, you
know what enough, let's just getto it. No, I would say
in general, I mean, Ithink I do think there's like some great
science fiction happening, But I wouldsay in general, it's hard to make
a movie. I mean, there'slike a lot of bad movies out there,
I think to make you know,I wonder if you know, trying
to do science fiction films maybe morethan some people can and can lay off.

(18:57):
So I mean, I think maybethat's one of the things hold people
back. I think, you know, you see a lot of fan movies
on YouTube where there's like really goodspecial effects, but the movies not that
compelling. So I think getting allthe pieces to work is hard. So
it's not I think it's a littletrickier than just kind of doing a more
personal, you know, you're moretraditional indie. That's just kind of you

(19:17):
know, following people around in apresent day location, right, Like,
you really don't see a lot ofindie you'd be quiet, Trevor, it's
like a lot. You don't seea lot of indie period pieces for the
same reason, you know, Yeah, because it's tricky, just too expensive.
But Trevor, winner Best Science Fictionthe Boston International Film Festival twenty sixteen.

(19:37):
We got an audible, Man,is that even at a real film
festival? Brian Holly Schwortz, thefinalist at Holly Shorts and Oscar Qualifying Festival,
Boston Comic Con, Hot Springs.I don't remember that one. Philip
K. Dick Film Festival, TriCities Film Festival, Independent Television Film Festival.
See you look at Brian's face becausehe's very familiar with the whole independence
at the whole festival scene, andhe knows all those festival are kind of

(20:00):
a joke. What that's that's notwhat? What What year did your don't
don't pull me into your mom Whatyear was? What year was this film
out in the in the world?It was Film Series twenty sixteen. Actually
I don't remember. It was betweentwenty thirteen and twenty sixteen. See,
he doesn't even remember one economic Developmentproduction grant from Dover, Vermont, of

(20:22):
all things, you should send itto Brian so I will experience the suffering.
That's right, we all did well. Speaking of suffering, Trevor doing
Look, I'm just looking at youwhat I'm suffering. My last question for
Brian were in the last twenty oneyears of IFF Boston, are there any

(20:44):
science fiction films that you and uhNancy are booked for the festival and were
there any standouts to you? Geez, I'd have to think about that or
ask Nancy. I don't you know. Off the top of my head,
I don't remember any, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean there weren't some. I
don't end up seeing everything that weplay, so it's entirely possible that there's

(21:04):
something that we played that I'm notthinking of off the top of my head.
I'm sure there is one movie thatcomes to mind that we didn't play
is a movie called Prospect that starsPedro Pascal kind of before he blew up,
and it's about it's kind of ittakes place, it's about I think

(21:26):
I don't remember the specifics. Ithink their miners are something they go to,
like another planet. And then thatand things go awry, but like
everything happens in this forest and it'sjust this really great kind of threehander between
JG. Plas and the girl whoplays his daughter and then Pedro Pascal and
I think it's like a really it'sa movie. I think about a lot.

(21:48):
It's like you can like, youknow, they built a spaceship and
they built like kind of like youknow, space outfits to wear. But
you know it's all just this threehand or in a in a you know,
in a four or it could havebeen like a Western, it could
have been a contemporary piece. SoI think stuff like that I think is
really exciting. Yeah, what isthe key? I'd say, what do
you think the key is to goto get to be successful at a festival?

(22:11):
Oh? In general, JE don'thave a good question, have a
good film to have something to say. I mean, I think, you
know what what Nancy talks about alot is she's looking for, you know,
people who've got you know, aunique voice, you know something that
you know, like a lot ofmovies you end up watching like hundreds and
hundreds of movies every year. Youknow, there's kind of a lot of

(22:33):
them tend to be kind of thesame. So like somebody who sticks out
a little bit, you know,is you know, is definitely, But
does it require talent, like knowntalent, like like you mean like a
celebrity. Yeah, no, Imean you need to have talent. But
like you I mean, we showa lot of movies that you need to
have some talent. Yeah, Imean, we show a lot of movies

(22:56):
that don't have named people in them, or people who then go on to
be famous. I mean, foryou know, movies with Greta Gerwig and
the d plus Brothers before they blewup and stuff. So I mean,
you know, sometimes these people dogo on to be bigger. But we're
not necessarily looking for a celebrity.We're looking for a good story. So
I mean, I don't I don'tknow that having a celebrity necessarily make sure
or a big name makes your filmbetter. I feel like a lot of

(23:18):
early filmmakers tend to spend all theirmoney trying to get you know, C
level, B level old actor somethinginto their films, just to give it
some more what they think it islegitimacy, And I don't know how effective
that can be when the story isnot there. Yeah. I mean,
if you have a story and you'relike, oh, you know, who
would be really good in this isyou know, I don't know, like
someone who has like Fay done away, you know, and if you can
get done away, you know,like they're like bring, I can showcase

(23:41):
be done awa. Anyway, shehasn't been a long time. But like
that's not that's not necessarily a requirement. Okay, we're moving on. Well,
why don't we get to why we'rehere? Why we're why's the real
reason why we're here? And andI'll introduce this. The real reason why

(24:03):
we are here is I don't understand. I don't get it. I kind
of don't want to get it.But here we are. I've known Brian
for a while and I was ontwo occasions I was scolded by Brian.

(24:26):
I was and I'm telling I'm tellingyou I was scolded. Wow. Uh,
we're we're talking about Miller because thereare two films that I just don't
like. I don't like them.One of them is called Miller's Crossing by
the Cohens, and the second oneis called Raging Bull by Martin Scorsese.

(24:51):
I don't like these films about everyI'll be honest about every five years,
I give Raging Bull another try tosee if my mind has changed, if
maybe I've shifted as a person.And I mean, I'll acknowledge that it's
incredibly well made. Uh, butI just don't like the film. And
I I've got an earfull from Brian. I mean, I think even angry

(25:15):
at one point during the Miller's Crossingscolding. Yeah, is that you both
know someone who's that I think theirfavorite film is Raging Bull. And I
can't believe that she still speaks toyou. Wow, I can't believe she
still speaks to me either. Butit just goes to show how much of
a loving, compassion engaging friend thatI am that Uh they you know my

(25:40):
personality goes beyond fucking Raging Bull.So anyways, I got quite an earfull.
I mean, is Miller's Crossing yourfavorite? And would you consider it
their best? It's not their best, by the way, Okay, those
are two different things. I know, I think they're best. Film is

(26:02):
a simple Man, because I thinkthat I think it's just I'm not trying
to be a drink. I thinkit's a serious man. Is it a
serious man? Serious man? Sorry, confuse. I got to confuse with
the fashion movie. Yeah one,yes, A serious man, because I
think to me, that's the moviethat kind of most delivers on all the
things that are their occupation and themost effectively. But to me, my

(26:26):
favorite of their films is Miller's Crossing, So I agree with you on a
serious man, I think that's theirtheir best film. Now the point of
this is, let's go back abouttwo years the Brattle Theater you were seventy
four Harvard Square, you know,pretty close. The Brittle Theater in Harvard
Square, Cambridge, Massachusetts, hada screening of a film by David Lynch

(26:52):
called Dune Yay. This film isfrom nineteen eighty four, and Down said,
oh my god, we gotta go. And I didn't want to go
because I don't like this film.And we went and Down met Brian.

(27:15):
Now keep in mind, Brian lovesmovies like Raging Bull, he loves movies
like Miller's Crossing, and it's likeReatarship Troopers like these are even if I
don't like them, these are veryhigh quality films that are beloved and enjoyed

(27:37):
by many. And however, bothDown and Brian think that Dune nineteen eighty
four is absolutely brilliant. And whenthey met that night at the Bradle Theater,

(27:57):
that was their first time that theymet. About halfway through the film,
I looked over and they were holdinghands and they were wipe. I
was gonna say, we have alove you'll never understand, Trevor. They
were wiping each other's tears, theirtears of joy off each other's faces,
and uh. And I sat thereand I was like, this isn't sufferable,
this is ridiculous. The point ofthis is that Done two is now

(28:19):
out and I loved it. AndI believe, Brian, you loved Denny
Villanove's Dune Part two. Yes,absolutely, yes, yes, and surprisingly
enough Don did too. But bothof you. The thing is, I
can't. I can't. Don's argumentsfor Dune nineteen eighty four are absolutely ridiculous.

(28:44):
No no, no, no nono no no no no. Brian,
you have some very compelling article onbefore we get to Brian, I
have one overarching point for why Istill like it. I don't think it's
a better cinematic masterpiece. I thinkthe newer Dunes made me appreciate the eighty
four to one even more because thereare issues with it, but they were
able to accomplish so much of what'sin the original Dune book Mineu's the crazy

(29:11):
Voice thing, Voice Weapon. Theywere able to get so much done in
three hours in that original movie thatin these five hours of the new one
were left to the side. I'llleave it at that, Brian Telephim.
I'm right. I I kind ofmiss that because I just saw on Cable
that Raging Raging Bull is playing,and I'd rather watch that than listen to
you talk for another minute. Brian, So I guess. Look, I

(29:37):
get the people don't like Dune.I get it, like I get it.
I get that it's not I getthat it's flawed. I get that
for someone who hasn't read the books, it's completely incomprehensible. I totally understand
that. But Trevor hasn't read thebooks. I have not, so he
has no context. I do feelbecause I've had this experience like watching it
at the Brattle, where people Iknow came up to me and they're like,

(29:59):
Okay, I don't know what thehell happened, and like what is
this and what is this one?Like I totally get that, but I
also feel that it does capture.I mean, keep in mind, Herbert
was on set while this was beingmade, and Herbert when he saw I
think he probably saw like an earlyrough cut, like maybe like five the
five hour cut, and he lovedit. And I think he even understood

(30:19):
that, you know, like,look, you can't a book is a
book and a movie is a movie, and they kind of are doing two
different things. I think, youknow, I really appreciate what they did.
I think, you know, downto your point, like it covered
a lot of things that are inthe book. I think, you know,
I when I watched like the likethe three hour fan edits that put

(30:40):
all the deleted scenes in, Ithink it's more complete. I would have
liked to see a three hour versionof it rather than like a two twenty
version of it. I feel likeit was a different time. But I
think, like you know, ifthat movie came out now, obviously three
hours wouldn't be a big deal,But then that was a deal breaker.
But I do feel it it capturesa lot of what's great about the book.

(31:02):
It's it's more, it's more theway I see it is the new
one. He wanted to focus onthe Beny Jesterate and sort of one pillar
of the society from the book series. But what I think made the book
very interesting is it wasn't just thebenny Chester. It it was the beny
Chester, it was the Mentats,it was the balance between the Emperor and
the different houses, but also theChom like like there was this Chom company

(31:26):
contract right that they have in theeighty four one, Like it was about
the lands rat and how you know, the Emperor was worried that the Treatees
was being so becoming popular amongst theother great houses that he was a threat,
not that he led with love orwhatever. Christopher Walkin said that I
needed to cut out of that newfilm. But the Guild, the Guild

(31:47):
was right right, exactly good.Yeah, you get a sense of he's
the Emperor, but he's still beholdento other people. And I think what's
what I love so much about Herbert'sbook is it's so interested in politics.
And I mean to the point thatin the book the Baron is a spoiler.
The Baron is killed basically off screen, like he doesn't care about the
specifics. The Baron is dead.Now what does that mean for the politics.

(32:08):
That's the thing that intrigues him.So I think both of these filmmakers,
both vill Neuve and Lynch, haveto take the story and be like,
Okay, like this is a bookof ideas, how do we make
this kind of into a movie that'sgot images in it? And I feel
like what Lynch tried to do isfocus on, like, Okay, where
are the action parts in it thatwe can make kind of a traditional science

(32:30):
fiction and then we'll kind of pumpit full of voiceovers to kind of maybe
explain things through. And I thinkwhat vill Neuve did it said, well,
let's just talk. Let's make thismore character based, and we're gonna
write dialogue that isn't in the bookbut gives you a sense of who these
people are without having to have abig exposition dup or without having to have
a voiceover. And I think theyboth come at it differently, and I
think they're both successful in their owe. Yeah, they absolutely are. I

(32:52):
just wish the Guild was involved becauseI feel like that was such such a
just so missing in this so missing, and it would make the world so
much richer and give it so muchmore scope versus just like the Emperor lives
in a house in some random planetHe's I don't know, it just it
felt a little shallow on that front. Yeah, I do think there's some

(33:13):
stuff missing in the new version.Still, I definitely think and I love
the design of the new version,but there's something about Lynch's version where they
said, Okay, each planet's goingto have its own looks, so that
you know, Eracus is rocks,and Titan is gold, and Guinea Prime
is like oil and steel, andthen Caladana is wood, so that you
always know where you are. AndI think, especially what they did with

(33:37):
the Emperor is so much richer thanlike in the in the Lynch version was
richer for the Yeah, but there'slike a scene like they're playing chiops,
like in a garden somewhere, andthen they're sitting in the small room drinking
tea, and I feel like you'remissing out small. It was small.
Absolutely was small and powerless and notimposing and not regal and not not any

(33:59):
of the stuff that I think shewas able to do. And it wouldn't
take another hour to do it.You could do it in five minutes.
You could do it with the timethat you had. Trevor is sad.
Look at them so I have Ihave kind of over here, talk to
us over here, we're over here. I have kind of a hybrid point
question, and please don't interrupt meinto until I finished. Please. So

(34:20):
what it sounds like is that shutI hate you. What it sounds like
is that my enjoyment of the Dunenineteen eighty four Lynch movie is predicated on
me reading this book, which soundsto me like it's no different than I
will understand this garbage Disney plus StarWars show if I watch the garbage all

(34:47):
sixty episodes of some crappy animated StarWars show. I mean that that doesn't
sound any different to me. Itdoesn't. I'm sorry, guys. It
doesn't sounds like we didn't like Ahsokathat much, or because we're like we
didn't want horribles, so we weren'treally invested in what was going on with
doing Brian, correct me if I'mwrong. I think we appreciated how much

(35:10):
was able to be put in therebecause the book is so dense and has
so much world in it. Idon't think appreciating it requires you to have
read the book. I don't.I think you should audi a movie again
after seeing the new ones. Ifeel like you probably don't need to read
the book, but I do feelreading the book makes it, probably makes

(35:30):
some of it a little bit moreclear. It is definitely it. It
packs a lot of stuff into itsrun time, and I don't know if
I think it starts off on abad foot by having a ton of exposition,
you know, so like, well, it's worse. Have you seen
the twenty minute like animated intro toit. I've seen the version where Dino

(35:52):
di Laurentis's wife talks about chom andI'm like, why are you doing this?
Choe is so complicated and ultimately unnecessaryto some degree, I mean,
it's completely out of the bill newversion, and I feel like to I
mean, I take your point thatit makes it a bigger world, but
if you're looking for stuff to jumpout, like explaining like like well,

(36:12):
okay, so the Harconeins really runit, but then there's this kind of
there's like this kind of these greatcoloris remember, but then also it's also
run through this like corporation like iskind of confounding. And to have Dino's
wife and her thick Italian accent talklike explain what chum Is, You're like,
what the fuck are you even doing? Like it just seems like such
a crazy, a crazy idea,and I'm glad they kind of cut that

(36:36):
out. But I think for alot of regular people, they're like,
Okay, I'm gonna get ready fora movie and they're like, oh wait,
there's like I've like, it's almostlike there's like you've got to take
a quiz in like the background ofit. And I feel like there's a
lot of ways that they could havedone better. And I like ville Nube's
version of like, let's just kindof dive into it. We'll kind of
explain things in context as we goalong. I don't think they had enough

(36:58):
faith in the audience in nineteen eightyfour to just kind of say like,
Okay, we're gonna put you inthis world and you'll figure it out.
It's like, well, let's explaineverything. But I think that backfires and
everyone's like, wait, hold on, like I don't remember where are we
now? Wait which one of theseplanets exist? I think it becomes a
little bit confusing the first time youwatch it. I mean, isn't Dune
nineteen eighty four like stop talking aboutthat? Way like it's Wonder Woman nineteen

(37:22):
eighty four, whatever, I don'tlike this, just the original Dune or
David Lynch do you Dune nineteen eightyfour? Where do you know? Isn't
this him wanting to capitalize on StarWars fever but instead which gave him something
else? I mean yes and no. I mean they talk about it a
lot as being like Star Wars foradults, which is dumb, but also

(37:45):
why Trevor doesn't like it. Well, but it's the opposite of I mean,
I will say one huge flaw ofLynch's Dune is that it makes it
a hero's journey, which the bookis not that at all, not at
all. That's true, very goodpoint, to be fair, Not everyone
got that, so he had toright doing Messiah to explain the point he
was getting across, which is thatthe worst thing you can do is follow

(38:07):
a messiah or a charismatic leader.So that people people aren't getting it now
from the movie now, Brian,Yeah, that's that's that is stunning to
me that people aren't getting that fromthe Villanos. People are very are are
not media literate, because when Iwatched it the first time, I'm like
this is so heavy handed, likeit's a little much, And then to

(38:29):
hear people be like, oh,like but he's a white savior like sort
of but like not, but that'snot the way. Well, here's the
thing. I agree with you tosome extent. But I understand because even
though multiple times says I don't wantto become that person, unless people see
it, they don't really understand it. So just because he says, my
visions lead to a gihat and billionsof people dead, I think in the

(38:50):
newer ones they didn't do as goodof a job. Not as good.
They didn't do a good job ineither film, but they didn't do as
much as they could have about understandingwhat the visions were and what the Golden
Path ultimately is and what he reallyis going to do. I don't think
people if they saw what he's goingto do, it would have been much
more of a bittersweet ending. Iguess for some people if they saw the
millions and billions of people who dieas a result of him making that choice.

(39:15):
I mean, I feel like alot of that's layered in the first
movie, where like there's like thescene when like he and Shannie are like
in that kind of ship like lookingdown and they look kind of But I
think the scene when he like comesinto the war room and starts yelling and
it's like I'm going to do thelike that, to me, it's like,
oh, like now he's showing he'sa bad guy, and I feel
like there's not Well that that wasa big change. It was very cool,

(39:38):
but it was too but he wastoo big of a shift that I
don't think that that landed is Okay, now he's a bad guy or he's
gonna it just looked like a tactic. But I think to me it was
fair. I mean, and again, I know the book's pretty well,
but I so to me, Iread that as him saying like like like
Bill Nu trying to be like likesnot he's not the guy you thought he
was. He's not a good guy. Like he's not like he keeps talking

(40:00):
about how he wants to save them, but really all he's doing is obsessing
about but also like revenging his father. Yeah, and you know this whole
day, Oh I can't stop this, I can't stop There's a million ways
you could have stopped this, butyou chose not to because ultimately you kind
of wanted this thing. That's alsoI think it's also about the seduction of

(40:22):
power. I think is kind ofinherent in the story. But they didn't
really show him being seduced by powerfalling in the movie, right, they
didn't really show that. They showedthe shifts somewhat, but not really his
what the only choice he ever reallymade? Brian don likes things spoon fed.
I'm sorry, we're we're talking aboutwhy audiences didn't get it was when

(40:45):
he made that line lead them toparadise at the end, right, but
at that point the music and theknife fight was a one so it was
almost a little bit lost, likefor some people, I think, you
know, to me, like,okay, the change of Chinese's character making
her kind of an oppositional voice,to me, I think, is really
what kind of frames all this absolutelyher kind of this idea of like and

(41:07):
none of this is in the book, but like her kind of pointing out,
like we need to save ourselves,you know, we should, you
know, like also making a muchbigger deal of the missionary of protect Teava,
which I think is one of themost fascinating things in the book that's
not in Lynch's doing at all thisidea that like all these all these myths

(41:27):
that we had were just were waysthat they could potentially trap us if they
landed here. So I feel likeher kind of making such a big deal
about you know we use is weneed to save ourselves, I think kind
of sets up this opposition in away that makes I just think a lot
of the ideas from Asia are pulleda little bit forward into the into this

(41:52):
version, which I think is alot stronger. I think in the Lynch
version, it's very kind of straightforwardand kind of messianic, where like he's
like he's clearly he was raised tohe was raised to be in royalty,
and then when that's taken away fromhim, he goes back and not only
does he take over his throne,he takes over the ultimate throne and then

(42:14):
brings Rain to a rackets body withlike literally like no context for that.
So I think a lot of itis just kind of like a like a
there's a bit of a dis xmachint about it about like oh he you
know, he wins everything and nowhe brought Rain and like that's it.
It's done. So I don't evenknow where you would go for a sequel
with this movie. But I dofeel it is a little bit more straightforward

(42:36):
in the Star Wars vein of likethe Hero's Journey. Yeah, and I
think Herbert's Dune is not the Hero'sJourney at all. And I feel like
that's one of the things I likeabout the newer version is it kind of
picks up more of that. ButI also understand again it's nineteen eighty four.
It's like, you know, differentthe era of Ghostbusters, in the
era of you know, or straightclass fiction. Most Return of the Jedi.

(43:01):
Yeah, stuff like that. Okay, terrible, but yeah, I
have some I have some now somefair questions. I think, first of
all, on a technical level.So what we saw when we saw Dune
nineteen eighty four at the Bridle twoyears ago, that was that was a

(43:22):
film print? Now, Brian,was that an original film print or was
that do you know? Was thatan original eighty four print? I'm assuming
it was. I mean I don'tknow. I mean they, to my
knowledge, the Universal spent zero dollars, you know, doing anything for that
film, So I doubt that theystruck new prints. I every time I've
seen it, either the Coolidge ofthe brittle it has been on film,

(43:44):
and my guess is that they ithad a fairly wide release, I believe,
and I'm assuming they just had alot of prints around because the movie
just tangs, So they just havepretty decent prints still in existence. But
I don't know that for a fact. Don get off the So my question
is is that this this recent fourk arrow release that came out. When

(44:08):
did that come out last year?Two years ago? Yeah? Yeah,
you've got it on yourself. Yep, he's studying it. Twenty twenty one,
twenty twenty one. Am I wrongto say? And I've seen it?
Am I wrong to say that?It looks radically different from the original

(44:30):
look when it was released in nineteeneighty four? Or was maybe this is
what they always intended for it tolook like it it? I I actually
have seen Dune eighty four multiple timesand I've never seen it like that.
And I understand, you know,readmasters, especially on a digital format,

(44:52):
you know, there's you know,things look different compared to a print.
But this was this was wild.I mean, that's a good question.
I mean, my understanding they don'thave any notes in here. My understanding
is that it was just Yeah,it's a restoration from the original camera negative,
but that's all they say about it. So I don't know. I
mean, would you say it's anew look? Have you ever seen it

(45:14):
look like that? And I meandon too, You've seen that version?
Right? Yes? I don't knowhow much is color correction and how much
is you know, because I know, you know, sometimes you get prints
from the early eighties that have turneda little pink or whatever. So I
don't know if the print we haveis sort of is slightly faded and then
this just seems, you know,more vibrant because they went to the negative

(45:37):
or because they did digital cleaning up. I'm that I'm not sure. Don,
did the look of this release kindof shock you? No, that's
it, that's all you got tosay. Correct, I don't know that
it was shocking. I mean Ithink it like I'm I guess I found

(45:57):
it shocking and I'm not even afan. It looked so different. I
like it, don't get me wrong. I like it. I think if
you looked at a four K restorationof like say Poltergeist or the Thing,
it would look a lot better,because most of those prints are not that
great looking. That I've seen atleast in the world. I mean,
there may be a good prince thatjust I haven't seen yet, but so

(46:19):
I don't. I just tend toassume that when there's a four K restoration
of an eighties film, it's justgonna look a little bit better because the
prints that I've had access to areprobably either old or like several generations.
I mean, I'm assuming that thething has been reprinted a couple times,
since I'm more interested in this printthat I'm holding in my hands right now.
Oh, Brian's got behind him someold Dune New Dune books. On

(46:42):
the new ones. I've got inmy hand a very worn nineteen sixty five
copy. Wow. Another reason whyDon's a shit broadcaster, because this really
works well for a podcast, somethingsaying these are words and this is what
a book looks like, Trevor,this is where stories lie I brought it.
Talk about doing Messiah and how PeterInglis should be in doing Messiah.

(47:04):
I was thinking, I just readDo Messiah last week, and I was
thinking, like, is it tooon the nose to one hundred percent of
the nose? But if he's sucha good actor, he's got to be
it. He's got to be itjazz, but forgot it's been a while
since I and Messiah because I'm I'mmore of a god emperor myself, and
I really want that movie to getmade. So okay, so God,
God bless you Got Emperor should bea film, guys. But like it's

(47:28):
basically just a political treatise, Likeit's just talking. Like there's not a
lot of visual stuff. What Idon't know I'd love to see. Well,
no, there's there's some action sceneswith the with you know, his
air essentially, and there's a lovescene with a fin a lot of him
throwing his body around and crushing people, crushing people. It's it would be

(47:49):
legendary. It's a little pun forlegendary films pictures, and it would be
innovative visionary versus just telling a littlestory about a guy in the sand.
Trevor, you should really read thebook. Have you seen the series of
Doune? Absolutely? And I gotit, And Trevor and I are gonna
sit and watch it and I'm goingto talk through the whole thing. If

(48:12):
I actually liked Back in the day, I thought it was a good attempt.
It was like a play. Itwas like community theater, but I
liked it. Instead of spooning withhis wife at night, he spoons with
his DVD copy of the sci fiversion of Doune incorrect. That's hard to
find these days, so hold onof that. But John has all the
copies of all the copies. Ilike what they did with Children of Dune,

(48:35):
but I means, yeah, they'reboth hokey. Let me tried.
There's damn it mixed really good actorsand then really bad actors, and the
costumes are kind of iffy. Butthose digital sets from like the early two
thousands where they're just in green screensand just like the most horrific backgrounds.
It's just it's very hard to watch. It's very hard to watch. But

(48:57):
they did a good job of distillingthis story into something that's watchable for the
story. I think Children of effective. In fact, it's to me like
I feel like there's no point makingJune Massiah without making Children of Dune another
two movies. But yeah, DuneMessiah, I think is one of the
weaker of the books. I thinkChildren and Children is my second favorite after
this interesting. So you'll never knowour joy, Trevor, You'll never know

(49:23):
our joy well, I don't.I don't know joy period, but I
did you say still and our lastepisode are the Clown and our last episode.
We talked about our impressions of DunePart two and we refer to June
eighty four, and I brought upa point that Brian, you can articulate
far better than I can. Evenin eighty four when it was initially released,

(49:47):
a lot of people complained about thespecial effects, and you I remember
you talking a few weeks ago abouthow the oh special effects. I'm not
talking about the production design, butthe special effects themselves kind of fit in
line with the whole Dino label,you know, Dino's thing, like can

(50:09):
you can you extrapolate more on that? Listen, I'm I'm a huge fan
of of Flash Gordon me too.It's fantastic. I'm not a fan is
Barberella. I think it looks great, but I think it's just really pokey
and plotty. But I just thinkhe's got this great visual sense where you

(50:30):
know, the just like there's somethingabout the way his movies, like even
his Kin Kong. I mean,I think his movies like look great.
I think though I will say,ready, I've been reading Masterpiece in Disarray,
which is Max Every's book on themaking of Lynch's Dune, And you

(50:50):
know, they started with a lotof ideas for the special effects, and
then I think as they were goingover budget over budget, they started kind
of cutting back on some of thespecial effects. So I do feel that
the sense I get from this bookis that going into it, the special
effects were going to be top level. John Diychstro was brought on board to

(51:13):
do that. Oh, he's unbelievable, and then he and Rafaela d Laurentis
didn't fully get along, and sosome other people were brought in who are
maybe not quite at his level.But then also like a lot of their
money was taken away, So Ifeel like it could have been. But
what special effects was missing? Imean, also, why do you need
it? We have such strong yougot Patrick Stewart sting. Cop mcgoughlin wasn't

(51:37):
there too, like you know,Sean Young, like, what do you
need any special effects? And hegot such a cast. I don't think
the special effects are that bad.I've seen some people who've kind of you
know, like redone them, andI think, you know, maybe they
look better for more modern era.I mean it's always I mean you,
I think you always have to gradestuff on a curve a little bit,
you know, I think, well, one thing, Brian, I mean

(52:00):
I agree with you, but likeone thing that actually stood out for me.
There's like two things that really stoodout for me in a negative way
for the newer dune Dune twenty twentywas it four or oh twenty years great?
One is the Christopher walking casting.We go to that later, but
number two is I actually thought theCGI in some of this was not good.

(52:21):
I thought, I thought, whenthey're in gidy Prime in the arena
and you're seeing all the people cheeringfadewow growth, they all look the same.
They're all moving like in groups often. It looks super fake to
me. I made a joke toTrevor while we were watching it most recently
that this always this the opening ofPhantom Menace at the pottery scene. It

(52:42):
felt the same as that, SoI thought that was not doing movies even
But oh my god, it's sogood that we did not sit near you,
Brian last week, because you wouldhave strayed. You would have no
longer have held Don's hand. Youwould have strangled him. I can just
watch the entire this is where Ienter in the uh the pod racing scene

(53:05):
audio. I agree, listen,I agree with that. I'm on the
fact I kind of I thought maybethat was a stylistic choice to kind of
show that they were kind of morethey were more kind of robotic. But
I don't know. I don't knowif I was surprised. I was surprised
by that, and you know,when Paul's up there with the knife,

(53:25):
that's all cool, but I thoughtthe crowd looked a little fake too.
But really, the the arena scenejust really it surprised me. How I
liked the arena scene. I likethe I like the kind of the like
reverse fireworks. I think I likedthat was cool. No, I like
that it was literally just the peoplein the stands. I agree with that,

(53:45):
but I did, and I didfeel like, oh, this looks
kind of weird. But then I'mlike, oh, maybe it's a silistic
choice. But I don't know,maybe I'm just kind of giving him more
credit than I should it. Ithink for the most part, the I
don't know, like I think forthe most part, the effects are okay
in this. I don't think theyweren't. I didn't see anything that was
like egregious. And I you know, having grown up in the eighties,

(54:07):
I have the ability to look ateighties movies and kind of be like,
okay, whatever. But I alsohave the ability to look at fifties movies
and see rear stream projection and belike, Okay, that's just how it
is, and not like freak outabout it. And I know that sometimes
younger people, when you're at amovie at a like the Brod or another
rep house or like, oh,like if they're pretending they're driving, but
clearly them like yeah, obviously dummy, like they knew that then, Like

(54:28):
you know. So I feel likeI do feel like a modern audience would
probably look at Lynch's Dune and belike, oh, this looks like shit,
and they won't be able to saylike, okay, like I have
to understand where it comes in,but I would say that, you know,
the idea of like what Dykstra wouldhave done with the original budget they

(54:49):
had, I think would have beena lot better. I think this is
one of those kind of sunk costfallacy kind of situations where universal like put
a lot of money into it andthen they started getting cold feet. It's
like, well, by now,like you might as well, Like,
I don't know that if they spentanother like I don't know, five million
or whatever, the movie would havebeen any worse. I don't know,
you know, it's hard to say, like would it have been Would the
movie have done better had it beena little bit longer and had better effects?

(55:12):
Maybe? But we can we canagree that the soundtrack is fire.
Oh my god, this sound isamazing. That the thing that talks about
in that Max every talks about masterpieces dey is that the whole idea of
getting Toto to do this was basedon the success they had with Queen doing
Splash Gordon. But I also,in my heart feel it's kind of like

(55:32):
a throwback to Yodorowski's done when hewas going to have Magma in Pink Floyd
do all the music. So Ilove the idea. I mean, Toto's
not Queen, certainly, that's nota hot take. But I think what
they they are all like kind oftop non session musicians surely, And I
think the music they came up with, you know, is awesome. Well,
yeah, surprised how similar this parttwo was to Lynches soundtrack. But

(56:00):
the music, the music, themusic, I mean, I feel that's
obvious. I mean that I thinkthere's there's a number of nods in this
to the Lynch version. You know. I think when they they come they
clean up after like the poison attackin the first one, they're clearly wearing
the same outfit that dark Onons arewearing in the in the first movie or

(56:20):
the Lynch movie. So I feellike, you know, there's a lot
of like little nods to it hereand there. I mean one of the
first the first trailer that came out, you know, they did that thing
where they used like a slow song, you know, it's like a slow
rock song, and it was aPink Floyd song, which absolutely with a
reference to Yeah. Yeah. Ifeel like, you know, Bill Neuve
is definitely you know, trying tokind of nod to Lynch as much as

(56:45):
possible. Yeah. I loved atthe very end there's the bells from the
original soundtrack that go in. YeahYeah. But how like you know,
electric rock guitari was was actually kindof surprising. I thought, Yeah,
I mean even I picked up onthat. I told Don at the end,
I said it had that it hadthat eno like Toto sound like just

(57:07):
the noisy the arrangement of it.I mean, I think that the eno
was the prophecy theme that Ino wrote. I feel like there's a bunch of
places that's in there. There's thatscene towards the end. I think it's
just before the scene with fade Ralphawhere they kind of cut to the sixterior

(57:27):
scene and like the sun is comingdown and there's this like synthesizers thing that's
nowhere else and it I'm like,that is definitely a Lynch Dune reference.
I wanted more. I wanted more, but I gotta ask you, Brian,
hold on, hold On, Trevor. I got it. I got
it just because Trevor gave me crapfor a year or two about this this
this note about what they were doing. Christopher Walking. I have to say,

(57:54):
I think Christopher Walking is one ofthe places where I don't think it's
super successful. I think his likeLily as way of saying it sucked.
I don't know that it sucks,but I do feel like there's two issue.
One is like, you know,he speaks a specific way and was
better and you know that, likeI don't think that that was really good.
That was really good, Brian.But to me, I think I

(58:15):
have a bigger issue, and thisis more in the writing where he talks
about, oh, your father wasa weak man because he wanted to leave
with a heart that I think isthat's one of the few lines that Bill
new added that I'm like, thisdoesn't fit the tone of the character because
and they do mention in the beginning, you know, like you know,
two and a half hours before thatscene where Aralon says, you know,

(58:37):
like, oh, my father lovedyou like a son. And but I
think that that's handled much better inthe book with the idea that like he
hated to turn against him, butyou know, politics kind of prevailed,
and I like you get a shadowof that in Eralon saying, but then
like by I think by the timetwo and a half hours ago by people
forgotten it and like it made nosense just in general, Like why no,

(58:59):
I think he should have more likeyou know, like, you know,
I loved your father, but thisis business, you know, that's
not personal. Like I think that'sthe idea of like your father was a
weak man, Like nowhere in thecan had to do with anything. Yeah,
is that true? But that's nottrue in the Cannon and I don't
know, I don't even know thatit makes sense. I just don't think
it makes sense. And it's oneof the things that really kind of sticks

(59:21):
out to me every time I've seenit, like four times now, and
every time like, ough, theyshould have this, should have gotten another
pass to kind of fix this.It's kind of a bummer. But that's
not Watkins's fault. That's ville Newsfault. No, it's his fault for
the line. It's his fault forcasting him. It's his fault for making
you know, Kidi prime nothing,you know, just making the emperor look

(59:43):
powerless and weak. And yeah,who would have been a better emperor?
Oh? I don't know anybody.Yeah, I mean it's hard to say.
Like, I think a lot ofpeople would have been better. Anthony
Hopkins probably would have been better.If you need to go with an old
guy, which I liked. Idon't remember the actor's name, but in

(01:00:04):
Lynch is too and he was likea real old guy, like older,
holy career, you know, andhe was surrounded in the first two minutes
by the trappings of power, andyou believed it was wealth and it was
power, and you don't get thatyou miss the corruption and the decadence of
him really comes from the Lynch versionbecause he is surrounded because one of the
things that that they talk about inthe book is that and and the book's

(01:00:30):
different because in the in THELL Newsmovie, Paul basically says, I'm taking
over you know, the planet,come here with like that tube. And
in the book, it's just thatthe Emperor is like, you know,
like the hard hunter getting their asskicked. I'm gonna go down there and
I'm going to put an end tothis. But I feel like like they
make a big deal that like allthe sick and you can see like a

(01:00:52):
you know, like like a Versaillestype situation where all these hangers on and
these siccophants and these fops all comedown because they're gonna watch the end of
the war and like that's going tobe so exciting, and then like how
terrified they are at the end becausethey're like, oh, we came because
we thought this would be like afun picnic, and like our emperor is
about to like be deposed and heis terrifying. And I feel like you

(01:01:14):
miss out all on that by it'sjust him and eralon being like twelve people
in twelve people in a room,like no power, nothing. Yeah,
yeah, but you really miss outon all that stuff. It's sort of
like he's just so Yeah, it'slike he's kind of alone and Eralon is
his only connection to the world,and I do think like that that's really

(01:01:37):
missing out on. It was aninteresting choice to have Paul be the one
to like summon the emperor essentially there, because yeah, having the emperor be
the one like the barons like screwingthis up. I'm gonna take charge.
I'm the big dog. That's avery different dynamic than what they did big
time, and that's what happens inLynch's version, right. Yeah. So,
I mean for all the talk aboutoh, like you know, he's

(01:01:59):
got the what do you call it, the voice things for the weird,
the voice modules for the weird,and how different that is like film,
I've made a lot of changes,and again on the whole, I think
there are positive changes. I reallylike what he did with Johnny. I
understand why he didn't bring Alia inbecause I think if you watch Alicia Witt
in the first one, it doesseem weird and I don't think like they

(01:02:20):
explained like, wait, why whyis there this little kid that's like dancing
around with a knife. What ishappening? I think like it kind of
makes sense some of those things thatthey did well. Also, like this
whole thing happens at the span oflike a couple of months, whereas in
the book it's years that palls inthe desert. There's like, in typical
Herbert fashions like oh yeah, twoyears of pass anyways, that the war
is over. Now we get tothe political stuff again. But you know

(01:02:43):
that's but Lynch's film also has aear Aloune doing the voice ever said like
two years of pass. And thenobviously you know in the in the in
the book, Paul and Chowney havea child who dies, which is what
I think. Isn't that what Imay be wrong here, but I think
that's what inspires him to drink thewater of light because he doesn't see the
attack. No, no, Itake it back, No, No,

(01:03:06):
it's because Gurnie Hallick is try tokill Jessica because she thinks that she's the
trader. That's what I was tryingto explain to Trevor over here the other
day. That's right, that getsa lot of both of us, but
also like, yeah, there's somuch is left. I don't know,
Trevor. I'm sorry, Trevis lookssad. He wants to ask a question.
Please, you may go. There'sno exposition dump more in the Sufferable

(01:03:34):
than the last half an hour ofJune eighty four, which isn't it like
three books and thirty minutes? No, and it's just information information information,
information, information? Am I wrong? Yes? I think you are at
the beginning? Yes, because VirginiaMadson his airline comes on and explains everything

(01:03:55):
and then wait, wait, waitwait wait know then that it is year
ten thousand and one. The knownuniverse is ruled by the potisher Embersha,
I'm the fourth my father I coulddo you want me ever? Will let
me keep it? Sorry? Goahead, Brian, listen. A beginning
is a delicate time. Oh deepcards for the book, and but I
think that you know, But thenthere's like this weird like she kind of
fades out and comes back on.Then there's the part where she's like,

(01:04:15):
oh, I forgot to tell youthe only place. It's such a weird,
it's so right. I have towe have to cut off this podcast
because it's a beginning. Is thetime for taking the most delicate care that
the bounces are correct? Is theopening? You say in the movie?
A beginning is a delicate time,though, isn't that how it starts?
My wrong? A beginning is ohwow, you guys don't even know the

(01:04:39):
is that fantastic? Oh, beginningis a delicate time. Oh you know,
there's multip there might be multiple versionsof this, but I don't know.
I had the VHS with the animatedopening, so I might be screwed
up in my head too. Soso yeah, Trvor, to answer your
question, yes, there's a lot. And then it goes to this weird
like you know, uh, likelike a note like, oh and just

(01:05:00):
come to our attention that there's thesefour planets, which is a weird way
to put it. And then heis watching a video that talks about like
oh and here's giddy Prime and here'sit like basically recapping it all. So
there's like three scenes right in arow trying to set you up, and
some of it kind of overlaps andsome of it doesn't. So I think
it is very However, a lotof sci fi, right, They start

(01:05:23):
with like a long scroll of textor a long block of text. You
know, that's what people did,and this was different. This was trying
to go past people reading. Iguess, I guess, I guess it's
a bit much, but I thinkit is a lot for But that to
me seems to be the most.I think the movie to be the thing
that holds people up the most becauseit's like they're waiting for a story to
start, and it's all this stuffand they're like, wait, what,

(01:05:45):
And then I think that that startsto lose people from the beginning, and
I think some people never feel theyget their bearings again, right, But
that movie really starts once the Emperorand the Guild are there, like when
the Guild navigator shows up. Yeah, And I think you could have started
that way and kind of you couldhave written it in such a way to
kind of like like the Ville Neuversion does, to say like you know,

(01:06:09):
you know, we need the spice, you know, and then kind
of what you're planing. I meanbasically that's sort of exposition too, because
he has the Emperor basically explained theplan of like okay, well we want
to kill him, but like aregetting too popular and so I'm gonna get
rid of them and replace them,or I'm going to get rid of them,
I'm going to put them back on. So like, there's just a
lot of explanation. I think theycould have cut some of it down,

(01:06:30):
but within that you get the opulenceof the Emperor, you got the Benny
Jesser, right, you get thetelepathy, you get that scene. Yes,
but I'm saying like, if youcut out like all the shit before
it just got you, you gotrid of the Princess Irelin explaining stuff.
If you just started with the Emperor, you could have written it in such
a way that you would have understoodwhat was happening. Trevor, do you

(01:06:51):
get that the Guild was like mutatedhumans who live a really long time that
look like fish? And so Ijust have two questions left. Uh,
well, this one's this one's reallysimple. Uh. I asked on this
on our last podcast, and Brian, I'm now asking, Uh, you
don't let him Anya Taylor Joy orAlicia Witt. No, it's it's it's

(01:07:16):
an unfair comparison. I think cheateda little bit. I'll be honest,
I didn't know why. I wasn'twhen they said any tailed Jos. I'm
like, oh, I wonder whoshe's gonna be, because I just assumed
they were gonna have a child beAlia, And it wasn't until I was
watching the movie and then I sawlike that she's they have the shot of
like the fetus. I'm like,Oh, it's gonna be Anya Taylor Joy,

(01:07:39):
It's gonna be Alia. But thenare they gonna use some cgi to
make her look young? That's weird? And then they just did a whole
different thing again because the movie takesplace over two years, or the book
takes place over two years, andthe Lynch movie like she gets born,
and I feel like what they didis a little bit of a cheat.
She's obviously gonna come back for partthree because she's a big part of Messiah,

(01:08:02):
but I don't know, I thinkshe's a good choice for that.
I don't think she's weird enough.I mean for Alia. I don't know.
I think I think when I'm excitedwhen she shows up for the third
one, to be super weird,you might be shocked. But the correct
answer is Alisha Witt. Alisha Wit. I thought you don't get to just

(01:08:24):
say Alicia Witz better no, no, yes, yes, because you know,
it's we're supporting our local folks.And I thought she was just creepier
in the in Doune eighty four,yes, five year old because she's a
child. Yeah yeah, yeah,exactly developed and she's talking about all sorts
of stuff and she freaks everybody out. That's like one of the favorite parts

(01:08:45):
about her in the book is like, like people keep coming to a Jessica
like you've got to do something abouther. She's freaking all the kids out,
she's freaking all the moms out,She's talking stuff that like it's just
really awkward. Yeah. I didn'tlike Brian that though, like along with
like Alia, like the Water ofLife wasn't a really big deal. Like
it was like, oh, it'sa local custom. How they become a

(01:09:06):
Benny Jester, It that seems superweird to me. That does seem weird,
and I I, yeah, Imean I agree with a weird choice
to go that way. Yeah yeah, I mean I I it didn't make
it clear that that's how one becomesa reverend mother everywhere. That's not just
something that no, it purposely isn't. I read it as they're saying every

(01:09:27):
place is different. How you becomea reverend brother. That's what I'm saying.
Like it's like instead of they changedit to be like, oh,
this is a local fremend custom,which just seems super weird. Yeah,
super odd. Go ahead, Trevor. My last question, Brian, I
will both movies hold on. Theydrink the water of life out of the
same looking flask, So that's likeanother reference is like they have it like
literally the same shape container. Mylast question is so so subjectively do Needy

(01:09:56):
four is a good movie? Butis it a objectively a good movie?
I can't be objective about Dune.There you go, okay, answer,
Okay, So I mean this isobjectively probably not just because of like I
like people who have not read thebook seeing it and being so like kind

(01:10:17):
of put off by it. Iguess maybe it's not. But I mean,
I no, no, I knowa lot of people who've not read
the book in the awe and seethe they've read, they've seen the movie
a few times. They've kind ofgotten in the movie as kind of like
a cult movie. But I meanI think, I mean, I know
Ryan Johnson doesn't like it. Hedid a podcast about that, and do

(01:10:43):
you know who else doesn't like it. David Lynch, Okay, let's talk
about this. I don't care becausewho cares? Who cares? Because like,
like I'm not a big believer inlike the kind of like the authorial
voice, like he made this likeso, and I also think and I
think he's wrong because he's basing iton not the work. So like same

(01:11:08):
thing we talked about this, Solike RIM's third record, Reconflict of the
Fables. Uh is my language here? I think that's one of that's I
might be my favorite RAM record.Yeah, great record. They hate it,
and the reason they hate it isbecause they were in England and they
were this their first time recording outsideof the US, and they weren't really
get along with their producer and theywere miserable and it was cold and they

(01:11:30):
almost broke up. So I don'tthink that when they listen to that record,
they're not thinking like, oh,this song is really good, the
production's good. They're thinking like,oh, like we really like fucking almost
broke out that day, Like andI don't have that experience, and it's
irrelevant. I think the art thatthat came out of that experience is fucking
incredible. But like and I thinkall of Lynch's talking about it, and

(01:11:50):
there's I haven't gotten to it yet. But in the master Piece of Disarray,
there's a brand new interview with himtalking about it. But it seems
like his frustration is it wasn't hisfilm. He wanted to have a three
hour version, he had to cutit back, and he's so upset about
that. But I'm going to saysomething this may be a bit of a
hot take. I think Wild atHeart is not a great film. I

(01:12:11):
think there's a good stuff in it, but I think ultimately I would consider
it a failure and that was allon him. So what's like a bigger
failure the movie that you had completecontrol over and you still fucked it up,
or the movie that like you hadkind of out of your hands,
the movie that it's doune. Thebigger failure is definitely dut eighty four correct
with the budget and everything. Wecan we agree disagree on that, yes,

(01:12:38):
but Brian and I are correct ashaving read the book, seen the
movies and understand literature and film,we agree and we are correct. Before
we go, Oh, Trevor,I just want us all to just to
hold up our hand. We justhold up our hand like this, where's
it? Hold up your hand?Well? I want to say one thing
though, thing about Lynch. WhatI will say that's like super incredible about

(01:12:58):
this is it's got a lot ofthat Lynch sound design that kind of transfers
to it. Even in the straightstory. There is so many stuff that's
distinctly Lynch in this film that Idon't know, like he seems to.
I don't know if if some ofhis argument is like, this isn't my
film because it got taken away fromme, but like it definitely feels like
a Lynch film, and so hehis fingerprints are all over it, and

(01:13:23):
I feel that the like even like, even if you don't like Dune,
if you like Lynch, I thinkthere's a way in that way. Yeah,
I mean from the record, Idon't flat out hate the film,
and I'm a lot of this ismaybe you should watch it now that you
see the new one and you undera lot of it. A lot of
this is a bit of a puton I from a production design, I

(01:13:45):
don't know. I keep going backand forth on who had the grander vision
Lynch. I know you're it's justthe vision. So different visions are so
different is but the Lynch one isso good, is so creative, it's

(01:14:10):
just so it's so exciting, triedto look at it's so big. I
mean, I to be honest,I'm I think it's just a film that
got away from him. It itit. I think he even kind of
alludes to that in the autobiography thatthat came out a few years ago,
that the film just kind of gotaway from him. And I don't think

(01:14:34):
he wants to talk about I thinkhe likes to, you know, ret
con it and just make it soundlike, hey, you know what,
this was part of my deal inorder to get blue velvet. You know,
I don't think that's completely true.I mean, he did say in
the book, in the autobiography thatthis was a two picture deal if he

(01:14:55):
did do and he got blue velvet. True, But based on everything that
I I've read in a Masterpiece ofDisarray, like nobody came into this thinking
like, oh this was just likehe was very passionate. He had a
lot of great ideas. That's inthe autobiography too. He I'm just saying
in retrospect, and what Winch issaying now, at least in the autobiography
is that I think he kind ofwrites it off as this was my path

(01:15:18):
to Blue Velvet. It's a massive, massive, massive production, and it's
bigger than anything he's done before orsince, to be honest, And I
think you look at the fact thateraser Head took what like ten years to
make. Yeah, like the numberof just the size of the cast was
massive there, you know. Likeand even though like you know, Rafaela

(01:15:40):
di Larentis is like the producer,she's kind of organizing stuff. You know,
that's a big production to be incharge of. So the fact that
he got anything out at all ispretty impressive. But I to your point,
like it got away from him.Like I think some of it is
I don't want to give up.I don't want to ever have found cuts.
Some is like I don't want tobe on movie this big again.
This is much. Yeah. Well, I mean that's it. That's it

(01:16:03):
for me. I just want todo one thing in honor of David Lynch
and the weirding way. Just Trevor, Brian, it's up to if you
want to do this, But Trevor, just hold up your hand. Brian's
not going to do it. Giveme and repeat after me, Trevor,
that's that's that's more embarrassing than liveaffect. Everybody live effect. Yeah,

(01:16:28):
yeah, I hear you say so. Trevor's name is a killing word.
Oh I love it well, honestly, Brian, I think that's what I
think Trevor should do, is thatyou should watch Lynch's do now that he'll
understand it better and maybe appreciate itmore about how much it is. Because
yeah, anytime, Trevor, youcan come into my place, I'll come
to yours. I got the fourK ready to go. You know,
we'll do. We'll do. Youknow what we'll do. We'll do it

(01:16:49):
in my studio. We'll do let'sdo, We'll do it. We'll do
Lynch and then we'll do the scifi mini series. It'll be great,
nine or ten hour. Haven't seenthat forever. I've got a gorgeous copy
of it, gorgeous pirately copy.Well, Brian, I did promise the
next we say that call is poorlycast. But yeah, okay, so

(01:17:14):
let's wrap up here with done eightyfour. Don do you have any final
words to say about done eighty four? You're wrong, We're right, Brian.
Any final points about Dune eighty Dounenineteen eighty four, nineteen eighty Here's
master piece. Yeah, I wouldsay the Sleeper is awakened. Yes,

(01:17:41):
Oh boy, Well at least Igot through it. I didn't get to
ask Brian when he thought about StillGuard the clown, you know, like,
you know what this this is what? This may be a hot take,
I think I think I think he'strying to portray Blake. He's a
little foolish. But I think whatvill Neuv is saying is that like kind

(01:18:03):
of people who just like follow leadersare a little bit foolish. I think
he's cartoonish because like I think ifyou look at I mean, obviously,
you know what do you call it? Herbert was looking at Jfka, But
I mean, I think it's justas true with Trump today, when you've
got a charismatic leader and you justfollow them without thinking, like, you
are a little foolish and you shouldthink more. And I think that's kind

(01:18:26):
of the point of the book.And I think he used still Guard as
a way to kind of show like, this isn't a good way to be,
like, you need to kind ofthink a little bit more before you
just follow people. Yeah, Isee. I disagree with Don completely about
him being a clown. No,no, no, no, this is
why this is. I don't thinkhe was a clown, but I think
he is kind of foolish, foolish, foolish as somebody who was raised by

(01:18:53):
you know, fundamentalist extremists. Ifound still Guard. Yes, there were
some funny moments, but I recognizethat behavior and I found it to be
scary at I never found him tobe a clown, and that that that
performance seemed very real to me.Again, this could just be was expecting
Still Guard the leader from the book. That's all so oh so you didn't

(01:19:14):
get it took it took like Christopherwalk In. It took me out of
the movie every once in a while. It was a little bit of a
too much of a comedic wink atit nod to the audience. I will
agree, I think he hit ittoo hard too often, but I do
I will say, yes, likehe is he it is, he is
foolish. But I do think thatis meant to be kind of frightening because

(01:19:34):
like that's sort of like you know, Still Guard led the frem End for
how many, however many years sincehe took over and then he sort of
just like kind of handed all thatto Paul and then like just the the
It is frightening that you would justkind of hand over your kind of autonomy

(01:19:56):
to somebody. Well, Brian,I know there were times where this was
an intense experience, but I wantto thank you for coming on where we
are definitely going to have you backfor more doom talk down the road after
the festival, let's make plans.Have you come over and watched the four

(01:20:17):
K disc? Don you're not invited? And yeah, they were not invited
to my Babylon five marathon. Yeah, God, thank you for coming on
the show. And can you andcan you plug the upcoming festival please yes.
Twenty first Annual Independent Film Fustle Bostonme first through eight at the Summerville
Theater, Brattle Theater, Coach CornerTheater. Go to i FF Boston dot

(01:20:40):
org for more info. It's agreat, great festival, I truly is.
I'm I'm not saying that because I'minvolved with it. I've seen just
incredible films, met great filmmakers.I mean last year. You know,
I'm not a film critic, butI do a top ten Movies of the
Year at the end of every year, and I think there were three or
four films that I saw at lastyear's IFF Boston that were on there that

(01:21:04):
I would not have seen any otherway. It truly is a great festival,
and there's some amazing guests that comeby. So please come out to
the festival. Buy tickets Iffboston dotorg. All right, and welcome back.
Okay, before we leave, Trevor, you said you wanted to tell

(01:21:26):
me something. I am all earswell. Earlier I spoke about how down's
deplorable behavior at the movies. SoWe're going to go see Civil War,
and I'm not looking forward to it. I haven't liked a single film that
I think his name is Alex Garlanddirected. I didn't like Ex Machina,
I didn't like Annihilation, I didn'tsee Men. I still need to see

(01:21:51):
that. I have liked some filmsthat he's written. I liked his Judge
Dread Film a lot. He wrotethat I enjoyed that filmy. But wait
a second, Judge read the newOne? Sure, the newer one,
but are you talking about the stalloneone? The lone one? Great movie.
I grew up with that loved it. Oh my god, so weird
that I remember the neighbor of thatdirector. His name was Danny Cannon and

(01:22:14):
he directed The Stallone the Stollone versionof Judge Dread, the newer version.
With the newer version, well,I actually think, yeah, I think
Cedra Bullock's a lot of fun andright, great movie. That's Demolition Man.
I'm sorry, I'm thinking of DemolitionMan. I'm sorry, not Judge.
I think I'm thinking of Demolition Mantoo. By saying these movies,

(01:22:40):
yeah, yeah, right, candid do the Judge Read was? Oh
dude reference? Max von Sido wasin Judge Dread. I believe the Stallone
one? Really? Yeah? Ohwow? I never knew that. I
mean I saw the film in thetheater. She's Justice Fargo, Max von
Sida, Judge Red Yeap loved him. Anyways. Don asked me to go

(01:23:04):
see Civil War with him, andI agreed to go after I vomited in
my mouth. And I think,right here, right now, we need
to set some rules because regardless ofwho enjoys the film or who doesn't,
that doesn't matter. It's about beingrespectful to other people in the theater and

(01:23:29):
being respectful to my enjoyment of theexhibition experience. So don yes turn off
your phone and turn off your watchnext time it's counting my money. Okay,
stop shaking your legs, and Imean you don't just bounce your knee.

(01:23:49):
Your legs are I'm used to arefined moviegoing experience with comfortable cares that
leaning back. You took me toa place with uncomfortable, rigid old The
seats had cushiony, memory phone andwhat they call butt. Okay, here's

(01:24:09):
Jordan's shut out. But come on, I like recliners, like my feet
up. Okay, well I'll takeyou to what we're gonna go see it
at Watertown, which has the bestrecliners in the most comfortable seats that I've
ever experienced. So so there's that. But then I mean, are you
going to be able to watch thefilm without your running commentary of bad dad

(01:24:31):
jokes the entire time? Only ifthe movie is good? Now Here,
I did not have that many jokes, and do it? Okay, I
literally just equated the hearkening arena scenewith the pod Racene and the Phantom menace.
That's it. One comment, noone, every time, and then
every time still that is a lotevery Yes, okay, there that's opened

(01:24:58):
his mouth. You were you wereleaned over. He's a clown. He's
an idiot, he's dumb, andI'm just like, dude, can we
just watch this? It was tooare you a child? Too harmless jokes?
I wanted you to It was relentless. I wanted you to know that
I was there. What are youa jed zer? Like? What is

(01:25:21):
your problem? I know it's hardfor boomers to understand. Oh well,
I am not a boomer. Don'tyou dare say that some of us can
multitesk just because I was on TikTokwhile in the movie theater. You're at
a movie. I wasn't doing anyof this, folks. He is a
liar. That is not true.I just listen to popcorn Eminem combo people

(01:25:46):
medium popcorn, a little bit ofbutter, of course, bag of of
peanut. Eminem's in there, mixit up heaven he then, let me
tell you, I have been disgustingat that idea from SAMs Mail's TV show,
Mister Robot, great TV show.Yeah, anyways, how are we

(01:26:10):
going to wrap this up? Becausewe both need toible Please, this is
we are more than halfway through theseason and maybe we're at the end of
the season. I don't know,maybe it's last episode, Trevor. We're
not going to get our winners downfor our last and hopefully this will be
the end of June eighty four.Talk for a long, long long time
until Dune Messiah in three to thirtyyears. Don always wonderful to talk to

(01:26:38):
you, Always wonderful to be donewith you. To our listeners, thank
you so much, our listeners.Yes, thank you very much for supporting
us. I hope you enjoyed theshow. And don't forget to subscribe right
on all your favorite platforms. Iheard Google podcast is going away or is
a way at this point you're notsure, but we are on Audible and

(01:26:59):
iHeart red Apple podcasts. And arewe on spotifyker Spotify? Spotify? Yeah,
yeah, Spotify. Ask your Alexato play no win scenario and it
will work. No way, Let'sdo it, trev You know, I'll
try. I'll try. No,I'll try with Siri borrow mine and know
okay? Well, oh, alsoyou I want you to buy me the

(01:27:24):
Ero four K of Doune eighty fourbecause I'm not going to spend my money
on it, and I want youto buy me uh an audible of the
first Doom Book, and I knowyou'll do it well. Your fiftieth birthday,
asked me coming out, Wait asecond, it is actually no,
it's not no, it's got relativelysoon. It's close, but it's not

(01:27:45):
coming. Send your birthday presents toNo Win Scenario Podcast, Give cards,
welcome, and with that, I'mgoing on, goody, goodnight. In
today's world, mental health is everyone'sconcern. If you are someone you know
is in crisis, please use theseresources. For US listeners, call one

(01:28:10):
eight hundred nine five zero six twosixty four or text helpline all one word
h E L P l I NE to six two six four zero,
or email helpline at NAMY dot org. That's n A m I dot org.

(01:28:30):
For our international listeners, please visitsuicide stop dot com. That's s
U I c I D E St O P dot com