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May 12, 2025 59 mins
In this compelling episode, host Dr. Greg and cohost Bryan are joined by a special guest to dive deep into the psychological and social dynamics of a fictional murder case featured in a current television series. Together, they explore the troubled character of Jamie, the young man at the center of the crime, and the emotional fallout experienced by his father, who is consumed by guilt and shame as he comes to terms with his son’s actions. The conversation unpacks the complex interplay between shame, rage, and emotional dysregulation—shedding light on how these forces can fuel a cycle of destructive behavior. The team also examines Jamie’s descent into violence, shaped in part by online misogyny and relentless bullying, offering insights into how digital influences can distort a young person's emotional world. Set against the backdrop of the series’ airing, the episode invites listeners to engage in timely reflections on parenting, mental health, and the powerful role of social media in shaping youth identity and behavior. Rather than offering simplistic answers, Dr. Greg, Bryan, and their guest emphasize the need to look beneath the surface—to better understand the deeper human and societal factors that can lead to tragedy. It’s a conversation aimed at sparking empathy, awareness, and meaningful dialogue.
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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What drives a thirteen year old to murder? Today, I
team up with Team up with top psychologist, doctor Jeffrey Gold,
who has a specialty in child psychology, with to expose
the dark truth behind the Netflix series Adolescence, diving into
toxic masculinity in cell culture and the terrifying power of
the Internet to shape young minds. Today, on Off the

(00:24):
Couch and welcome to Off the Couch, where Psychology meets
everyday Live. I'm doctor Greg Cason here with Brian Gomez.
Hi Brian, and we have Tony on the board. Tony,
feel free to dive in too. But I have a

(00:45):
very special guest today. It's doctor Jeffrey Gold, and he's
a clinical psychologist, researcher, professor and anesthesiology, pediatrics, psychiatry, and
behavioral sciences with nearly three decades of clinical and research experience.
In fact, your vita is so long and one of
our we I'm just going to dive right in to

(01:08):
say that we had We were in graduate school together
and one of our mutual professors once told me, the
longer your vita, the bigger researcher you are. She said,
vitas are the They're like resumes. With all your publications,
she said, they're like penis length, and she's yeah, So

(01:29):
it's basically giving you a compliment there. So, with nearly
three decades of clinical and research experience, doctor Gold has
widely recognized for his work on pediatric behavioral health, early
intervention strategies, and the psychological impact of systemic stress on youth.
His insights have shaped national conversations around adolescent development, emotional resilience,

(01:50):
and the growing influence of digital culture on mental health.
In fact, you've done some very innovative studies there. But
the reason that we're doing this talk today is to
talk about the show Adolescence. Correct, the Netflix hit series Adolescents.
Did you see it? Yes? I watched, Okay, good Adolescence

(02:11):
just to talk to you if I'm sure everyone knows it,
because it is something that has caught the zeitgeist of
the world. Is a gripping Netflix limited series that follows
the arrest of an unraveling and unraveling of a thirteen
year old boy accused of murder, all told in four
real time episodes. So this is a pretty cool thing
because they film everything, it's four different episodes. Each episode

(02:35):
is one solid take, single shot the entire time. They
do not stop. So it's really raw, intense, disturbing, intimate,
the whole thing, and it just pulls you right in
and it's striking a chord because it feels so real
and so timely. Yes, but Jeff yes, or doctor Gold,

(02:59):
I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Jeff is good.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
We're friends, so yes, I can. I'm a little bit
too relaxed. No, it's it's this one really disturbed me.
What what was your first your first reaction when you
saw this series.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
I mean, I think the one shot was really interesting
because it really draws you in. You're really part of
the family, the school, You're really in that experience, which
I really enjoyed and at times claustrophobic because it was
like you were right and close and personal and I
love that. I love being part of that. And it
was intense. It was more intense than most other shows
that you are watching passively on the couch. So but

(03:39):
basically it was beautifully constructed. The cinematography was incredible, the
acting was brilliant, honestly, and the storylines were pretty complex
and pretty riveting actually to there's it's a multifactorial sort
of perspective on this on this storyline. I think we're
going to talk about that today. But it was really powerful.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, I was really drawn in the whole one shot thing.
The only thing I'd ever seen like that before was
in Citizen Kane. You see that opening shot that just
goes on forever and you're like, how did they do that?
So this accomplishment, yes, was crazy because it was as
if they were they were not being filmed. It was
as if it was a play or a real life

(04:19):
thing that the camera just happened to be moving around
and catching things as they really happened.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
And you felt that in the opening episode right when
they came through the house, and you'll talk about that.
And at school, when you're in the hallways, you're in
the classrooms, you're on the playyard, when you're leaving school,
when you're entering school, you really just feel like you're
a part of the crowd. So that's really intense.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Well, you know what, let's just dive right in there.
We'll just go right to the talk about the first one. So, yeah,
the arrest that happened, that's when the Army police raid
of the Miller's family. That's when the little boys arrested.
Thirteen year old Jamie Miller on this suspicion of murdering
his classmate Katie Leonard, and they basically bust into the

(05:06):
house and go and arrest him. And the family has
caught it like let's say six in the morning, and
they don't really give a time, I guess, but it's
before school, you know, and he hasn't even gotten out
of bed yet, so and he is just really terrified
and pulled in and arrested and the parents can't go
with him, et cetera. I was immediately struck by if

(05:30):
it were me in that situation, what would that be?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Ye? I think that he he was cowering in his bed.
He was, and obviously he knows what's going down. It's
not new to him. So he's in his bed, he's cowering.
His parents are yelling and screaming, right, Mom's yelling, Dad's screaming,
what's going on with my boy? What are you doing? Etc. Etc.
They're just asking where the boy is, where Jamie is,

(05:55):
And he's just sitting in his room, cowering, kind of
fearing and knowing, like he's aware of what's happening, and
yet he's just sitting in his room in this shot
that he just showed cowering in his bed, just waiting.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
So what I really liked about this, just to dive
into personal opinion, is it showed how everyone is terrified
and tortured during a house break in, the police were like,
we have a job to do. This is just what
we're doing. They come in, they bust down the door,
they start going through things, the mother, the daughter, the dad.

(06:32):
They had zero control in their own house, right, And
then the little boy getting up out of bed and
having pissed himself because he's so scared, and.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yet he says to his he calls his dad. And
this is a fiend throughout the whole show because he
leans on his dad in a lot of ways. A
lot of people are curious, why is he leaning on
his dad so much? Right, So he does that initially
when they bust in, He's calling for his dad, right.
He wants to talk to his dad, and his dad's
trying to reach out to him. So you see this

(07:04):
connection with his father that you don't yet understand right
until later in the show.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
No, yeah, no, The father was a very interesting character.
By the way, do you know that the father the
actor who played the father was also the creator of
the show. Did you know that everyone knew that?

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (07:23):
It was great, I guess only I'm surprised.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Well he was. I mean he was a discovery in
the character Jamie discovery. Both kind of a first time
for them, I think in this.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well, I think dad had been an actor for a
long time. Wait, but the boy was brand new, brand
brand new. Yeah, and so this goes and then he
pull them into the police station. Now, you and I
have worked in police stations. Haven't you worked in police stations?
So I was like, but certainly not in England. In England,

(07:52):
so what my first reaction, by the way, I don't
know what yours was. My first reaction is, wow, they're
really nice in England.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah. A lot of people had an issue with that
in this episode. Yeah, they had a lot of issue
with how nice that he and the family were being treated.
Because he was under suspicion of being a murderer. Why
would they treat him so kindly and so nicely? Right,
And there's been there's been talks about race, like if
this was a brown or black kid, that, oh, that
would not have been the same type of treatment, and

(08:21):
that this family was treated like royalty and yeah, all
the way down to the police house basically, which was
pretty surprising. And you know, something else with him is
that he he says to his father in episode one,
you know, I didn't do anything right, he say, repeated
it over and over, I didn't do anything right. So again,

(08:41):
knowing what he knows and cowering as he cowered and
the fear that he had, he still was fronting like,
I'm fine, I'm innocent, I didn't do anything. Everything's fine,
but I need my dad. And he kissed himself, right,
so right, I mean, it's it's really complicated, right, it's
complex to think of what he's going through too from
his no.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
And in fact, I wondered about that because I thought
that's sort of true to life when you're a kid.
I don't know if this is how I was as
a kid. When you would do something wrong, you would
just assert I didn't do it correct, wasn't me because
your parents might buy it?

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Right? And they did?

Speaker 1 (09:17):
They did right?

Speaker 2 (09:19):
They did, Yeah, they did. I mean that is the
I want to like, at some point, I'm going to
talk about this sort of shame, the shame rage model
that can drive some of this violence. And I think
that he was starting to experience that in episode when
you see that his shame by again pissing himself. He's
embarrassed and he's starting to manipulate. Right, He started to

(09:41):
tell everybody, either to protect himself or to manipulate everybody else,
that I didn't do anything. I'm totally innocent. Everything's completely fine.
I don't know why this is happening.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Oh so this is give me, let's dip our toe
in the water. So the shame rage model.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Is what, right, So if you experience shame, yeah, if
you discharge the shame by by acknowledging it and recognizing,
oh wow, I did something and I'm embarrassed by that,
it gets discharged in a healthy kind of way.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
We call that a shame attack and exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
But in the shame rage mom, right, what happens is
it goes into rage and you start blaming everybody else
for what has happened to you, right, which then.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
The projectors the hector projectors, after.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Which then leads to violence because then you feel irritable
and angry and furious and et cetera, temperamental and then
you start to rage at other people, which then again
creates more shame, rage and shame and rage. So that
gets into this fairly kind of cyclical pattern that is
very destructive.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
In fact, during that first episode, he kept saying I
didn't do anything wrong, which isn't the same as I
didn't do it. He did say that to it at
different points, but he kept saying I didn't do anything wrong,
and I had to keep thinking, is he did he
think what he did was okay? So just to give
it away, eventually they do show a video correct of
him stabbing the girl. There is no mystery that he

(11:00):
in fact did the crime he was accused of doing.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
And that comes out early, early, right right away. Yeah,
And they show the father.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
And they show the father and you mean during the
arrest and then the father had believed him. But the
father then was, you know, was disabused of his belief
and was so horrified. And actually, I think that actor
did an amazing job. But what did you think because

(11:31):
when the father finally realizes and he breaks down that
his son did do it, and then the boy, Jamie
is crying and he reaches over to his father and
the father pulls away, what did you think about that?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I mean, the rejection right. The rejection of his own son,
Right is complicated in that he wants to protect his son,
and that's kind of the job of a parent is
to protect the child. But at the same time, he's
repudiate these kind of disgusted by the what he just watched, right,
And so how do you how do you come to

(12:06):
sort of arrest around that, How do you take those
that shadow side and the what you think of your
child's side, and how do you sort of mend those together?
And so his first response is to recoil, right, is
to pull back because he's I think just disgusted by
what he's witnessed, and I think he it takes time,
like because parents also blame themselves. I mean, if you

(12:27):
look into you know, the news about people who've committed murder,
and how the parents feel about that, right, whether guilty
or not guilty, or they blame the kid, or they
blame themselves for what they did or didn't do. You know,
there's a whole So he's spiraling around that, you know, oh,
my goodness, my child has committed this murder, this heinous murder,

(12:47):
and he has to grapple with that and come to
some sort of conclusion about about his own role in
that what did I do? Guilt? Right, guilt which can
lead to shame, which can lead to again feeling isolated
and recoiling and pulling back and not being able to
face it. I mean, I think that's really what's going
on for that dad in that moment, in that split moment,

(13:08):
right and so, but I mean, ultimately we see him
lean in, right, but he had aditially on first take
pulled back.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, you see so much happen with the dad, and
you know it was only upon retrospect because I was
following the story and I was focused on the boy,
you only realize how much the father is actually going
through because he can't protect his family. He's completely powerless.
He's you know, authority is taking over. They're taking his
son from him, they're arresting him.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Well everyone's looking at him too, oh.

Speaker 1 (13:42):
Like what did you do? And in fact, that comes
up in the first episode because then they keep wondering
was there because they said a previous case there had
been sexual abuse with the dad. Why do you know
what if he's choosing the dad and they keep introducing
that doubt in the first episode.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
And yet the way that it was spun. The way
that it was written and the way that it was
choreographed as a piece of art as a movie was
that they were an ideal like, hard working, middle class
family and if there wasn't any sort of foul play,
no physical abuse, no verbal abuse, no sexual abuse, is
kind of what they spun. So again, they leave the
audience hanging because the audience wants to believe there's trauma

(14:22):
so that they can kind of go check right, oh's.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
And that's not me. That's what we Oh, that's not
my family, so we're okay.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Correct, And I think that the creators did this on
purpose to make people really grapple more deeply with this
non schism because they're just a regular, typical developing family
that doesn't have trauma in the family. And the father
was going back about the ways in which he managed
his own anger. Right, He was not a very expressive man.
He grew up and sounded like in a family that

(14:51):
might have been more aggressive or abusive, and that he
had a man.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
You find out an episode four correct.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Correct, but that he didn't want to do that to
his kids, so he was more buttoned up up right,
And so then he had to ask the question, Oh wow,
this is me being buttoned up and not expressing emotion.
Put my child in this non expressive, violent sort of space.
So he's he's wrestling with all that, right, he has
to wrestle with all that he has to look at himself.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
But you see that reinforced in the first episode too,
because the attorney remembered the attorney saying to him like
chin up, buck up, get over it, like you know,
just going and you're like, oh my god, I mean
that was exactly words of consolation for what he's going.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
No, No, it doesn't work for that that way, and
I don't think he came from that, so it's sort
of hard for him. And then the mother really became
really not as at the forefront. No, she was right
behind him, but not really in the front like the
dad was.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
No, the mother and sister, especially in the first episode,
were just sort of ancillary.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, what did you think, Brian.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
I mean, like you said, it happened to a normal
family that there was no trauma, that we all always
look for something to like pin it on and be like,
oh it was that. You know that It makes you think, like, wow,
me having a kid in the future, like you try
to make sure that they're like the best little humans
you create, you know, and for that possibility to happen

(16:14):
without it being like a trauma or something that's happening
behind closed doors is just so scary. That we were
talking about it earlier, how like, I don't know if
I could have hugged the child, like I would have
snapped and like, you know, like as my child having
done that, I would have been like, I you are
not my child at that point, you know. So that's

(16:36):
why I was just so interesting how I mean, you
guys are talking about he's battling with so much at
the same time that it's like, yeah, I guess you
don't know what would happen, you know, how would you
react in those moments? Just scary. I mean, it can happen, you.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Know, it does canon it does. There is another sideline story.
I did not mean to dive into first episode this much,
but just realizing the depth of it. The two detectives.
They start out the series like just the two detectives
having just starting their day, kind of a boring old day,
talking to each other, starting their day. Okay, you know,

(17:11):
we're getting ready. This is what's going on. At home,
blah blah blah. You realize that for them, this is
just another day of work. This is the most traumatizing day.
One for the family of the victim, two for the
family of the murderer, right, and to the detectives, this

(17:31):
is just another day of work, which does set you
up for the second episode. So because when they go
into the school, I think, especially the male detective is
really moved by the second in the school, I think that.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Again, it's the shows come from so many points of view, right, Yes,
so many facets and perspectives, and you could jump on
any one of them, right, You could have an hour
long conversation about any one character. And which is why
it's such it's so well written, right, is that there's
that layering, Right, those old movies that we used to
love to watch, whether it's like seven stories and then

(18:08):
by the end of the movie they all intertwine. Yeah,
your brain's just tinkering all on all these And that's
kind of what they did in a very brief four
part episode or a series, was to get all of
these layering of stories and get you to stand in
their shoes, Right, what would it be like to be
the police officer. What would it be like to be
you know, the mother, the father, the son, the daughter,
like the victims family. They get you to to take perspective.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Right, they do get you to take perspective.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
It's really important lived experience, right, It's all about like
can you slip into their shoes and live that experience
for this this series? And I think that's what they
were shooting for.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
And you know, I mean you get to a point
where you're just like, I'm not sure what what? Like
who to blame? The song? Like you you actually start
to see the real problems.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Which is why we have with the buzz around it
because people like little bows at the end of the stay.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
They do generally like bows.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And that's not what they were trying to do.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
But this car crash you couldn't look away from. I mean,
it was so well done. It was a well done
car crash. Let's talk about the second episode that's the investigation.
This to me, in many ways was my favorite episode,
although everyone else, everyone else says something different. Number three well,
which we'll talk about, But I was stunned by this episode.

(19:23):
There were so many like subtle things that happened. This
is when the two detectives Bascom and Frank delve into
Jamie's school life. They go in and they're also trying
to retrieve the murder weapons. So they go into the school,
they interview classmates. They find out that Jamie's exposed to
online misogynistic content. So that's the manisphere stuff, which we'll

(19:46):
talk about and in school and online bullying, and this
also happens. We find we meet friends that are very
pivotal to the story. One Ryan, who provided the weapon,
and also Jade, the best friend of the person who
was murdered. That a woman, a girl who was murdered. Yeah,

(20:08):
so what what are your initial thoughts on the second episode?
I could dive into all of mine.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
I mean I just think that, you know, I have
friends who are teachers, right, and it's it's it was
very like on brand. It good, right, it's really on
brand to be a school teacher and see all that happening,
because school teachers feel really helpless around handheld devices, kids
talking class, kids talking back to teachers in class where

(20:35):
everyone's out of control, right, they chill like the patients
are running the asylum. Yes, really, what's happening here? And
so a lot of teachers were really vibing hard on
that episode because they were like, Yeah, that's my life,
right every day. This is what it's like for me.
I can't teach a kid because of all of what's happening.
And so I thought at a macro level, that was

(20:57):
really interesting because you really enter the school and feel
the vibration of the teachers and the students, and the
students really again running the asylum.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
And you know, in the first episode you find out
Jamie's favorite class is history, and then he says and
then the lawyer's kind of drilling him down like is
this just a BS answer or is this a real answer?
Jamie knew all what's your favorite period? I think he
said industrial or something. You know, he just goes down
into all this stuff and talks about his favorite things

(21:26):
and why, which is kind of interesting now that I'm
thinking about about the manisphere, because it was a time
of great creation, so that's interesting. But anyway, just to
go backwards, he said they that was his favorite class.
Then we talked to the history teacher later and he's
hands off about Jamie. All he does is show videos

(21:47):
and doesn't really pay attention to the kids.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's right, that's the way to manage the class.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
And the and he even came in late when the
detectives were he was in the bathroom exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
Well, it's interesting because I think the kids are running
the school, the teachers are exhausted, and you feel the
sense of that there's not a lot of learning happening,
not a lot, right, And I think what starts to percolate,
like pretty quickly is that the bullying. You start to
hear a lot about the bullying in the school, which

(22:19):
we know this. I mean, we know this in our society,
whether it's social media or whether it's you know, you
know it's messaging and et cetera. We know this is happening,
and it starts to be it starts to come into
focus that he's really a target for that.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well, let's talk about the difference between what we grew
up with, because bullying is not like a new thing,
and what they have to deal with because what we
grew up with was no different than there is the
detective Sun in the video who is bullied pretty intensely,
and he's bullied in the more traditional way. He's called names,

(22:55):
he's demanded, they would demand money from him, they throw
their trash at him, and it's just he just kind
of exists in within this world and just somehow manages.
And what you see is the teachers and the you know,
the administrative personnel really not doing anything, just saying yeah,

(23:16):
just stop that, like very weakly, right.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Well, And it also reflects how like his dad doesn't
know this is happening.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
No, his dad has no idea.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Because connects between the parental.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Why do you think his dad doesn't know?

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, I mean I think there's a lot of reasons.
I mean, a lot of kids keep many things deeply
under wraps, that's true, you know, And I think that
that's a lot of the kids are operating from that
space of you know, this happens to me, and I'm
not going to tell my family about it. Why it's
online bullying or in real person.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Well, I always wondered if it I mean not always
just since I saw the show, but we wondered if
it was shame that was really driving him to do that,
but also feeling like if I tell my dad, nothing's
going to be done. And I remember going through stuff
when I was a kid and not and thinking if
I told the teachers, if I told nothing will be done.

(24:07):
In fact, I'll get it worse.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
You get it worse, right, yep, And that's true. So
and I think that that has cut across all time. Right,
if you're the one who blows the whistle gets somebody
in trouble, that it's going to come back on you,
you know tenfold, right. But I did like and appreciate
how they they drove that schism pretty clear, you know,
whether it was in cell right, things that were going,

(24:29):
like the police officers have no idea what's going on
in current culture. No, so they can't really get in
there because they don't even know what they're saying, doing
or asking. And so that schism that you see with
students and teachers, you also now see it with the
parent because the parent's a detective in school. So that
becomes really clear that how are these detective is supposed

(24:50):
to help. They don't even know what they're asking, They
don't even know what they're hearing.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
In fact, that was probably one of the better scenes
to me, is when the sun Is took his father's
side and say you aren't getting it, you aren't getting
what's going on here and explained he called it insta.
He explained Instagram, and he explained what these emojis meant,

(25:15):
explained the exploding red pill, red pill versus blue pill,
and the father goes, oh, from the matrix, which would
be my immediate response. And the kid doesn't even know
what the matrix is, but knows these pills.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Because it's been rewrapped, basically.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
And and was that the kidney beans? I forget. It
was like there were so many references that the kids
in in cell, they were calling, they were saying things
to him and bullying him online. That ratcheted up, and
that the girl, the murder victim herself had been bullying
this kid and she had reason. I mean, I'm not

(25:52):
going to say she had some we find out later
she had some reason. But let's go into the whole
manisphere thing, because that was the surprise to the detectives.
And even then they're like, oh, have you heard of this?
And the one says, yeah, no Andrew Tait. And then
one of the school administrators says, oh, yeah, I think

(26:12):
I've heard the kids saying his name, right, So let's
just talk about the manisphere and what that is. I
took from an article here what is the manisphere? And
it's just a network of misogynistic online communities, but it's
linked to the rise of male influencers like Andrew Tait

(26:34):
and the researcher here thought the root causes were poverty, isolation,
and inequality. I've really never thought about the actual roots
of this, but I thought that was actually kind of
interesting because there's a big belief within the system that
if you're not in power, then you're you have power
taken over. There's no equality, right, correct, there's just none.

(26:57):
Either you're in power or you're getting screwed.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Right, that's right. And I think that's where a lot
of it stems from. You know, it's that shame again.
I mean, in cell means involuntarily celibate it right, But
that's not how it started. It didn't start. It wasn't
associated with the manisphere. It's become associated with the manster,
but that's not how it started. It started by a

(27:20):
woman who was involuntarily celibate and she was feeling lonely
about that, and she created the community of other people
who are involuntarily celibate to have an online presence to
support each other. They wanted to have relationships. Yeah, the
history of in cel is very deep. And not just
immediately linked to the manosphere. So I think if you

(27:40):
think about it's sort of like you know, they it's
been likened to like Oppenheimer, Like she created something really
beautiful to support each other and it got weaponized, right,
And that's where we see in cell now it's being
weaponized in the bulling sphere basically, where that's not really
where it come from. It come from an empowered place
for people to gather and support each other.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
That totally makes sense because then the bullying then that's
what doesn't believe in equality because here she's saying, I
want support, Let's all join hands, right, not feel so
alone and not listen.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
To each other, Like this is not where we don't
want to.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Be and it's not negative. We can be here together.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Correct. That's the humanity of where insult comes from or
where it comes from. And I think that it's gotten
twisted and weaponized. I mean, it's just the easiest way
to say it, because we see that in lots of
examples in world how things that were developed for good
can get used for evil, I mean unfortunately. So I
think it turns really interesting because you see them using

(28:41):
that as a bullying tool. Or mechanism against that boy,
and then he feels shame about it.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
He feels shame and he's just a little boy, you know.
Here he's thirteen years old. I remember the kid kept saying,
I'm ugly. I'm ugly said that in the third episode.
He kept saying I'm ugly, and I was like, oh,
I remember thinking that. I remember thinking I was.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
A I mean, I think the percentage of time people
spend thinking about are they attractive? Do they fit in?
And are they regular? Is like probably eighty percent. People
are like ruminating about am I just a regular person?

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Oh? My god, especially in middle school, like the age
he was, because do you remember, I do remember like
you were. You were so tuned into what people were wearing.
And my mom wanted to buy me. I always had
to get J. C. Penny jeans, and I wanted Levi's
because the other kids had Levi's and they shopped at
the Gap and I was like, my Mom's like, no,

(29:33):
don't shop at the Gap or Miller's Outposts that was.
I think that's where they sold the Levi's. I don't
know one of the two, but the yes that was,
you know, like the very specialty stores but you know,
I mean, I'm I'm in total awe of my mother
now that she pulled it together, you know, and she

(29:54):
raised three kids and you know, alone and do the
whole thing. But when you're a kid, you're just looking
around at well they have they have those types of
thongs and I have to buy the ones from save
On and these people are buying the ones from op
Ocean Pacific. But it was it's very funny.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
And there's so much energy put into just trying to
be regular whatever that is.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, regular fitting in, fitting in, fitting in, that seems
to be all that it is. In fact, in that
first episode, there's a character called Ryan, I mean, second
episode in the school and they interviewing the kid about
the and he ends up being the one who provided
the weapon and they say to Ryan, you know, they're
trying to ask him questions, and he turns to the

(30:40):
cop and says, were you popular? I'll bet you were popular?
Like he only really wants to know, like that this
guy had power, and he's like, well, I did well,
I was pretty popular and d D and he's like wow,
like it was as if he was meeting a star.
Of course percent and it really helped you see his

(31:03):
value system.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
But I think that's correct in that era, of that
period of time of as being an adolescent, like that's
what yeahs right, it's just the fitting in and with
the layering of social media and all of the things
that we know, all the online preces, it gets very
complicated to navigate all of that layering. And I think
that's really what drives this kit. I mean, whether you
think he's a sociopath, right, or if you think he's

(31:26):
got an intermittent explosive disorder like a behavioral disorder that
doesn't exist anymore in the DSM, but if you think.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
It's that too bad, right.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Or if you think it's conduct disorder that's morphing into
psychopathy like a lot of people want to pathologize it
was their trauma.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
I don't really know, but they don't land on the
diagnosis here, No, they do not.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
But when but when you layer in all the social
media and whatnot, it really does make it so much
more complicated because you can't tease that a part anymore,
because it really is bringing in variables that you hadn't
really had to think about before in diagnostic thinking.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
In fact that you're kind of pointing out one of
the limitations of the diagnostic and statistical manuals of what
we use to diagnose, because it basically kind of puts
responsibility onto the person who's exhibiting the diagnosis, and it
may be like we see it more like an illness
that they have it, but we don't necessarily say, of
course this is understand Like people who come to me
for ADHD and I'm like, you know, they don't have ADHD,

(32:21):
but of course you have attention deficit. You live in
this world. This is the world. And when you're on
social media all the time, when you're only watching short
form videos, when you're you know, constantly demanding things entertain you,
then you're gonna you're gonna shorten your attention span.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
So yeah, the behavior, So is.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
This going to be you know, is it is it
really their fault or is you know, or is it
a brain disorder or is it that their brain is
just reacting to the world they're in.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Right, And the show does not land on anything. No,
on purpose to leave us tortured knowing.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Tony, I forget what how far are we because I've
lost track of the time. Oh episode No, I meant
how much more time do we have? Thank you? I
completely Oh no, I could. I could realize that I
was in some other zone talking to you. I was

(33:19):
so interested and I have eighteen things I want to
say that I completely lost track of time.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
So if you don't mind, back online.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Back online. So yeah, we talked about Oh, I don't
know all this stuff, the culture of hyper masculinity, et cetera.
It was also interesting. There was another character in episode
two in the school, Jade. Jade was the best friend
of the girl who was murdered, and she was in
many ways gave me goosebumps. What an interesting character because

(33:52):
she was so angry and was angry at everybody and
was almost not terrified, but so scared that they would
try to lay blame on Katie for what happened to her,
which I understood, and she understood what was going on.
And to give a backstore you find out later is

(34:15):
that the girl who was murdered had sent her topless picture,
I guess to another boy, and instead of him keeping
that picture to himself, he sent it to the school.
He sent it to everybody, and that's what started them
going after these boys. That caused Jamie to think that
he could get this girl because she was now weakened

(34:40):
and like a weakened animals separated from the pack, Jamie
was going in for the kill, but instead of he
couldn't get her to go on a date with him.
Remember he said, I put on my best tracksuit. And
then he goes in to get a date with her
and she shuts them. She shuts him down, She says
no way, man, and then he takes out a knife
murders her. And it was the little boy Ryan who

(35:03):
gave the knife, and he just thought they were trying
to scare her.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Right, Yeah, well I think that this is this is
the the meat and potatoes like that incident right there. Ye.
That speaks to the poor emotional regulation, right, the inability
to manage rejection, the like you say that, going in
at a vulnerable time with this woman. I mean that's

(35:29):
what the manosphere speaks about, right, Yeah. It gives you
an instruction manual how to go in when people are
vulnerable and to do, you know, to make your move
or whatever. That's really what it speaks to. How to
take advantage of and manipulate people for your own needs,
irrespective of what their needs are. Right, So, it's not

(35:49):
really considering the other. Right, in objects relations, like object relations,
which is a theory in psychology, you know, using other
people as representations of things that you need, right and
manipulating them for your own gain is pathology.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Right, because you don't see the other you don't see
them as people as people or.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
A human or somebody who has feelings or anything. And
so that's what ends up happening in these sort of
manosphere relationships is that these women in this case are
just objects to satisfy the person's needs, whatever that is.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
And that's how those objects react to them determines their
worth if the if the woman comes toward them, then
they're worth something. If the woman rejects them, then that
puts the their worth in a lower position, which means
they have to then attack the thing that rejected them. Well,
going back to your shame.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Yeah, the shame rage thing. Right. So if he could
have recognized, oh, she's not interested in me and moved along,
then that's a successful discharge of the shame. Right. But
it's he didn't do that. He actually, you know, he
killed her, so he disregulated, no capacity to regulate, and

(37:03):
just had a rageful response, right, And the ragual response
has led to the murder. So you know, people could say, oh, well,
who does who does that? Right? Like who would do that?

Speaker 1 (37:13):
This is? Aren't they saying? It could be anybody? Right?

Speaker 2 (37:16):
And that's the crux of the story. It's not it's
not the who done it right as much as is though,
why did he do it?

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Why? And that's so let's go to episode three. That
was the big one that everyone loved. I it was
where it's just a single basic shot the psychologist entering
the facility. I've done this so many times. I was
never a forensic psychologist, which is in her role like
working for the attorneys. I did research. I was doing research.
But oh, how familiar this was walking in, going having

(37:46):
to meet the person, et cetera. Yea, and then she's
harassed the minute she gets there, correct because she's female.
And I had to think, dude, I was never harassed, right,
And I thought, wow, I had not thought about you
know how that happens so constantly, and they portrayed that

(38:09):
very much.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
Was trying to hit on the vending machinery. Yeah, yeah,
and she was kind to do her job, and she's
like having to fend off people's advances on her.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, yeah, no, and it was and she she held
him off and then she goes in and meets with
the boy. And I think that was an extremely powerful interview.
By the way, what's your take on the job she
did as a psychologist.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Well, it's interesting. I think my main criticism is psychologists
they don't get shook that easily.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
As she did.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, I was surprised how easily she got.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
But you know, she's like trembling around the hot cooke.
I'm like, are you serious right now? Like you work
in prisons and this is a thirteen year old boy
coming at you with this hostility and you're like twitching
like that seems kind of weird, right, I don't know
why they portrayed it that way from the art stand.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, for the for the vulnerability that she was, I
thought that was it. And yes, because I if they
had a male and he said there was a male
psychologist that came and and his questions were easy and
everything was fine because there wasn't that sexual tension that
now Jamie was really kind of he was he was
really flirting with her intensely and going at.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Her and the rejection.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
That's really rejection, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
It did remind me of that. I think was it
called primal fear with Ed Norton?

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Was that the Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't see it.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yeah it was. He was he was a certifiable as
sociopath and at some point during his before he just
flipped right and it came out that he had multiple
sort of personalities and it was very complicated, and this
was this was very different than this, but it had
it was sort of allah, that kind of movie take
where all of a sudden, he's being this sweet, cooy,

(39:45):
kind of quiet. Then he starts getting aggressive towards her,
making advances towards her.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
She rejects him, asking her questions, mocking.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Her, mocking her, and then and then he had his
blow up, right yeah, which was just again just kind
of paralleled probably what happened with his experience with his
peer that he then went on to murder, right, So
it just shows you his underbelly right away, that he
just flips that switch from being you know, contained, to
like being rageful.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
In fact, he couldn't contain himself so much that he confessed, Yeah,
he said, what blah blah, what I did da da?
And he's like, no, you didn't hear that blah.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Blah blah, right, because he's a child, so he wasn't
doing a great job of it. But I think the
dynamic was really clear. He was rebuffed, he was rejected,
and he like just into a fit of rage. And
I think that was that's what they were trying. I
think that's where they were trying to make that connectivity
to this sort of the toxic masculinity, the hyper masculinity. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(40:41):
that was where they really started to show about him
beyond the murder, but to show that sort of evidence
that now supports it even more so, like that this
this kid has clearly got some underlying issues around.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
And this is where they again played with the possible
sexual abuse, which I thought was interesting because again you
didn't see any evidence of that, but here it's coming
out and she's pushing him a little bit. What's this
relationship with your father? Right? And clearly he has a
relationship with his father, but it's suppressed emotionally, like he

(41:14):
can't deal with things. But you know, she's still trying
to explore that, and that made him go very you know, upset.
He could sense what was going on, and.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Again for the role as a psychologist, right, That's not
what happens right when you're when you're interviewing somebody like that,
but you just keep pressing and impressing and impressing it.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
No, No, I guess not. No, Yeah, I mean nonetheless,
I was like, I liked the job she did, even
though I did have my issues. What I noticed when
he stood up and screamed I have had someone do
that at me before. And I, what did you do?
Because I can say what I've.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Done you first?

Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah, I'll say, because I'm you know, I'm a little
bit embarrassed about this. But I had cussed. But I
was like, I, you know, the person stood up. I
didn't stand up, but I got very forceful. I said,
set the f down. I was like, sure, did Like,
I just pushed right back, and he's you know, he's

(42:13):
coming at me, and I just yelled. But I didn't
get up because I thought I'm not going to get
into a fighting stance. You think like quickly quickly?

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah for me?

Speaker 1 (42:23):
And he did.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, that's he listened to you use that voice that helps.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yeah. No, I got very loud.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
You came from the diaphragm.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yes, I did.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Your theater they always. They always taught us in training
that you you you know, you you have to be
you have to allow the patient to be there the
door so they can escape. Yeah, as opposed to you
being near the door to escape. I mean it seems
natural that you'd be closest to the door, but you
really want to allow them to get out, right.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
I used to have a coworker who always sat near
the door.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, exactly, you know, but that was he used to
work together too. Yeah, I know, I've had I've had
with dangerous people. Yeah, they escalate and I just stay
home like that. That's what I've learned. I stay calm
because that de escalates.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
So I've been intimidated by all kinds of you know,
prisoners or other patients that are who've been into military,
I mean, who are well trained and et cetera. And
you just have to maintain your your composure and talk
them down. It's a de escalation.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
I've only been scared a few times yea, And one
was I was scared with actually one of Lewis ferri
CON's bodyguards, Wow, which was so interesting to make. But
he was scary. He was a scary guy. And then
I've been scared other times, but people, you know, we
used to work with people who were you know, very
very ill, and there were you know, escalations and things,

(43:40):
but I never felt personally threatened.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, your physical integrity was.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, no, even though you know, we had things happen
all the time.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Well, she was scared. They had her portrayed as a
scared person.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
They did, they did. But I also thought, well, she's
petite and you know this and that, and I think
she wanted to like him, Like she brings, she brings cocoas,
and she brought a pickle sandwich and you know, which
is like testing his boundary a bit because he didn't
like the pickle. And it went on about the pickle
because basically he's trying to say it's it's sort of

(44:16):
like is he going to accept this? Is he going
to deal with this? Like she gave him a little task.
I don't know if that was intentional or not, but
it ended up being. She also gave him hot chocolate
with marshmallows in it, and she agreed to get him
a second cup, which I don't think I would have done.
I would have said, well, you knocked that one. I
can't guarantee you won't do that. It might have been

(44:36):
part of her strategy maybe, Like overall, I thought she
did a good job. She got a lot out of it.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Well she got what she needed, Yeah, she sure did.
I mean she sometimes there's that that sort of backhanded
way of getting in there. You know, we get trained
a certain way, but maybe there's this other way of
accessing a different patient. And I think she she did,
at least in the you know, in the show.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
But the ending scene of that episode three and she's
being he's being pulled away and screaming and then just
going ballistic and hitting the glass. You know, he's being
pulled out of there, and you really see the fear
settle in with her. Yeah, yeah, she gets she gets
very shock. But you know this, they really did show

(45:19):
that Jamie, whether it was already there or it happened
while he's in prison, is now a fairly damaged human being.
Like he's got some rage issues, and they start with
that too, they show him attacking another.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Well it's interesting too because when in life, when you
have shame or when you feel angry or something, there
are people who act out and there's people who act internally. Right,
So you have people who are suicidal or depressed or
they have substance use issues or whatever because they're feeling
shame about X y Z. But then there's other people

(45:52):
who act out. There's externalizers and your internalizers, and he was,
you know, an externalizer is obviously a lot better for
Hollywood that is an internalizer in that sense, at least
in this show. So yes, I think that's right, Yeah,
in this show. But that they did show that, I mean,
they really showed that he and at his age, he
has no capacity really to you know, basically inhibit those

(46:16):
impulses that are coming out because you know, the frontal
lobe is not fully milinated yet, right, you don't really
have all that decision judgment and inhibition yet. And so
he's just unbridled affect and rage and anger. And that's
what they showed, and they displayed that, I mean in
a way that was very clear.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Yeah, no, they sure did. And then we go to
the Fort. So that episode was seven months later. The
next one is thirteen months later, called the Reckoning. That's
what the name of the episode is. And this is
where it focuses on the family. Yeah, and what the
family thirteen months and not the fam the family of
the murderer, Jamie's.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Family with parents and.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
And you come out and once again, and I hate
to harp on this, but once again we see this
theme arise of did he sexually abuse? Which obviously it's
on these people's minds because the dad walks out episode four,
looks at his van and it says nons nuns yes,

(47:14):
which I had to look it up. I had no idea.
I don't speak British slang. Yes, So apparently that meant pedophile, right,
and they misspelled it. So it's kind of giving a
you know, like the kids did it and then you
find out kids did it, so it's kind of again
trying to put blame, you know, this thing trying everyone's

(47:35):
mocking and putting blame. And you just saw the torture
in this family. And it was the dad's birthday. They
were trying to have a nice day. Oh and yeah
it was anything but a nice day.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
I think that that's what's really great about the portrayal
in the fourth episode is this up close and personal
family experience, like how is this wreaking habit on your life?
And what are you doing with it? Like we're also
looking to see what do they do with the blame,
right and the guilt, and the community's response is to
say he's a pedophile. Right, So that's what I really like.

(48:11):
You know again, from that one shot, you're just with
them all day. You're in the car, you're driving around,
you go to the store, and then you go home.
All one shot shot.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
That's the craziest thing of this.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
So you're up close and personal and you're living this
experience with the family. You're in the family, you're the man.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
I think when I heard the star the creator talk
about this, the dad, the guy who played the dad,
that was the fourteenth time they did that one shot.
So they did it, he said, they do it to
a dave. You know, they do several, several several till
they got the right one, but fourteenth, fourteenth one, and
it was a really special one. I was crying during

(48:49):
that episode. That was the most tear jerking episode. But
you saw the ugliness in the community. Like when you
went to the hardware store and there was a kid
who is like part of the in cell community. They
kind of suggest and he's saying, you know, I, you know,
she deserved it. It's basically, you know, he should get
off you should crowdfund a lawyer and you're like, ooh, gross.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah, the community's kind an ugly face.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, and then of course the kids who doing doing
that and teasing him and taunting him, and you know,
and then the kid and then parents coming home and grappling.
Did we do this to our son? And did they
do it to their son? Do? What do you think?

Speaker 2 (49:33):
No? I think they hint in the show that there
are things about the dad that contribute.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Like he just wasn't emotional enough, he didn't really nurture
his son. From the point of view, his son wanted
to be nurtured. He tried to kept making him into
a traditional man.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Well. I think also he he faced abuse, so he
thought he should do the opposite, which is what we
see in life a lot. Yeah, people experience a certain parenting,
they think they should do the opposite of what they experienced.
And so that was just like the pendulum swung way
over there, and that was that wasn't going to be helpful.
But if he could have spoken to his son and
spent time with his son and talked with this son
and had a more open, expressive relationship with what they're implying,

(50:13):
would have made things better. And plus he worked seven
to seven or something, so he wasn't around there.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
No, he was a hard working dad, right. But they
you know, they they have a whole speech about his
playing soccer or football and that he when they he
went out to play, he was so bad that they
put the boy on on goalie and the father had
to look away and shame. And I'm like, god, come on, dad,

(50:40):
he said, I couldn't look at the other fathers. I'm like, seriously,
when you're you're a father of two boys, could you
look at the other fathers?

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Of course, I mean, my god, blink. But that was
that's obviously in his and who that's what he came with,
that's what he showed up with, and so and then
now obviously he's thinking twice about that, about how he
raised his kid and blaming himself. I mean, that's the
problem is blame game. That you see everybody's pointing fingers
at family, at the kid. They're gonna blame the girl.

(51:07):
You know, everyone's pointing fingers at everybody else, which is
again part of that that shame rage, like people aren't
taking accountability for what might have been part of the issue.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
And in fact, the most brilliant thing I think about
this whole episode. Well, I was just in tears. The
father you know, had to come to grips with it
and basically goes to his son's room and puts his
son's Teddy Bear to bed and just breaks down crying.
And I was just I was in tears. It was
so hard.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
And that was after the big reveal though.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
What was the big reveal?

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Big reveal when they were driving in the car and
the and the kid called them to wish them happy
birth Oh my.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
God, Yes, the kid calls him to wish him happy birthday,
and the big reveal is.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Yeah, yes, he I mean hes way ahead. No, no, that
he tells his dad, thinking he's only on the phone
with his dad, right, because remember from the first episode,
it's like.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
He didn't want to talk to his mom.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
He doesn't want to tell his mom or his sister
because maybe his loathing of women or shame or whatever
the case idea. And then he's telling his dad I
wish he would happy fiftieth and also mentioning that I
did it basically.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Like yeah, he said, I'm gonna change my plea. So
he's a responsibility.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Then he finds out his mother and sister in the
car and he gets really quiet. Yeah, that really pissed
him off. That made him very angry. Yeah, because he
didn't want to talk to them. He wanted only to
talk to his dad, which again aligns with this whole
like masculine anything and who he reports to, like who
his person is. And that was really a pretty huge moment.

(52:36):
And then and then they come home to the house
and that's when he tucks in and puts it to rest.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
So what was so brilliant about the show is that
there were so many layers and one layer too, was
at the very very end. After that happened, they see
their daughter, who's really amazing. You kind of get a
sense that their daughters really turned out well, and she's
very the family is very stuck together and they're gonna
pull through this together, which I like that They said,
how do we raise such a good one? And and

(53:04):
she the mother says the same way we did, Jamie
like the same Yeah. And in fact that that helps
you to see, oh yeah, well, could it be the
gender norms or could it be the school stuff? Could
it be the friends or the online bullying? Could it
be you know, biology, could it be the you know,

(53:24):
the system, and plus we don't know Jamie too much
pre arrest. We know he has some behavior problems, but
you know, so many kids do. They don't go out
and murder someone. So you know, there's a whole thing,
there's a whole question of exactly where does this all fall?

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Nature comes back to the table.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
That's why I was like do we know what it was?
Or like how to prevent this? Or like I don't know. Yeah,
it's just scary to think that just it can just happen.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Yeah, I mean, I think what at least what I've
been reading and what I've seen people talking about, is
that we don't create enough forums for let's just say boys,
for this discussion right now, where they can come together
without their handheld right and talk to each other and
share with each other and express to each other. And

(54:14):
because if I say or do something at school and
a kid records it, it's forever. If I cry about
something in class that is cry worthy, right, like it
really affected me and I cry about it, all the
kids pull their cameras out and record it.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
So you can't have an authentic emotional feeling without the
fear that it's going to be in the you know,
the meta world forever, like basically, it's going to live
on in perpetuity. And that's a scary thing, really scary.
It eliminates your capacity to be authentic. And so I
think some of the some of the work that's happening

(54:50):
in the anti manosphere is to try to get boys
san's phone, like, put all your phones away and come
and sit around and talk about certain things like who
inspired as you? And what do you look who do
you look up? You know, having communal conversations with people
that they can share freely, authentically and not feel like
they're going to be recorded or pictured or video whatever
it's going to be, and and have that and that

(55:11):
builds community, right, I mean it does. That's and we
are missing that. We're missing that because we have our
kids sitting home on laptops or on handheld or they're
you know, doing whatever they're doing. That isn't about interacting
with each other, right and having conversations Like we're not
on our phones right now, we're all sitting and talking
to each other, right, So that's something that needs to
be intentionally put into our community, right where people have

(55:34):
like talking sessions all over again, where they're just hanging
out together and talking minus their their electronics.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
That is a great idea. So how do you feel
about taking phones out of schools.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
I think it's a great no.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
No.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
I think it's a really important that phones should be
left at the door or for every class. And I know,
I know for a fact it's distracting not only the students,
because they're on Insta and talk and messaging their friends
in class and sending pictures and videos and listening to
music on their earbuds and they're not learning. They're just

(56:08):
not learning. It's not happening. Not to mention how disrespectful
it is the teachers into the learning environment. It doesn't work.
So you know, I think phones should be out of
the classroom one hundred.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
I do too, And I think you can do that
with kids. I taught graduate school, and one thing I
have to say is it's harder there because they really
fight it and the school backs the momp and yet
they'll sit there and still go on their phone. If
they're on a laptop, you better know they're they're on
the internet. They're not they're not writing their lectures.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
I've said at the back of medical school classes and yeah,
everyone's searching.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
You know, Oh my god, help for our residents.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
Yeah, so it's a problem, and it's not like that's
not the reason why Jamie murdered.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
This no, right, No, it is a bigger picture.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yeah, the bigger picture is that our electronic uptake is
just excessive and it's really interfering with learning and relationship. Again,
the intell comment came from people feeling lonely, not just
because not just because they don't have a romantic relationship,
but they weren't feeling connected to people, right, And so
if you think, I think connection right, attachment, connection is

(57:18):
really the basis of our humanity. And it's funny they're
called smartphones because they really make us dumber. They make
us dummer, and they really disconnect us. Even though people
think they connect us, they don't really connect means. So
I think that that is a big problem. And I
won't demonize like social media or smartphones, but I will
say that they have a part.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Like you said, they play a role in how.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
We're disconnected from each other. I mean, look, we could
go walk to the local restaurant here and couples are
on dates on their phone I mean, come on, what
are you doing.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
We have to go back to the days of two
Dixie cups in a string, and I think then will
have solved all the problems.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
No, I think it definitely needs to be. There needs
to be like breaks, for sure, people do breaks from
from their technology. I mean there's another show that was
out right, The White Lotus that was out Oh yeah,
and you know, part of the checking in was putting
your phone in the bank.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Which I loved, and I loved the family fought right
because it's so real.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Of course it's real because people don't want to let
go of it. It's very it's you know, it is
everything that we know it to be. So but I
think that that is a step in the right direction,
you know, to be able to separate from their technology.
And you know, I challenge people when we go out
for dinner to put their phone away, you know, just
let's just be here and have this conversation and share
a meal.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
So, Jeff, I mean, let's you and I go out
to dinner and I'll be on my phone the whole time.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
After this, unfortunately, we need to end.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
We were just started. I know, this is episode one.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Honestly, talk so much about this or so much, but
that does wrap up the show.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Well.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Thank you, thank you so much, thank you for being here,
thank you for coming and lending your expertise to such
an important topic.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
A reminder to like subscribe to give us five stars.
Links to this studies go to my YouTube page YouTube
dot com forward slash doctor Greg. If you have questions
or topics, hit Brian up or hit me up at
ask doctor Greg. This is doctor Greg Brian and child
clinical psychologists with a specialty in child psychology and researcher

(59:18):
Doctor Jeffrey Gold bidding you farewell, and Tony two bidding
you all farewell. Until next time. Be present, be flexible,
and be kind.
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