Dan Bolen - at age 70 came out as gay, kicked out of his church and ended his 2nd marriage - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Watch the video version of this podcast at outlaidwithdavid.com.

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Hi, I'm David Codden. I'm a father, a brother, a son. I'm a retired U.S. Air Force
Brigadier General, a former senior executive in the Department of Defense, a corporate
vice president, and now a life coach. At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,

(00:30):
I'm gay. Join me, as I talk with others, who've made this coming out journey late in life to become
who they really are. You're listening to Outlaidwithdavid.
My guest today was always an overachiever. He built a company from the ground up and was a

(00:50):
leader in his church until one day it all fell apart. At age 70, he came out as gay, was kicked out
of his church and ended his second marriage, but today he is now living his best life. Joining me today
author of the book The Courage to Be courageous and host of the podcast of the same name, Dan Bowman.
Dan, welcome, so happy you're joining me today. Since you're coming out, you've been very open

(01:18):
about leaning in and not running away from yourself. So let's just jump right in. Did you ever think,
"Leave your restraints?" When did you realize you were not straight? I guess. I realized it's different
as I said in my book when I was seven years old. I remember liking to play with the school boys.
Where my set, I was seven years old. I was playing with my, I guess you'd say, the boys in the

(01:44):
neighborhood, read rassles and so forth. I remember really liking them, not just as friends, but at seven,
you don't know what sex is. You don't know what gay is. You don't know what any of this. I felt like I
was different and I thought that different is not a good thing. Somehow I got that in my head. It's
not a good thing and you keep that from your dad and your mom. So you start keeping a secret from

(02:10):
them and a secret from yourself. In your book, you talked about I was fearful, hidden, and voiceless
for seven decades. Yes. What kept you then from accepting yourself and what did you fear?
I think for me, I feared losing my family, losing my friends, not being accepted. Again, in my

(02:38):
generation, you could not come out or there were very few people that did come out and it was a very
unsafe thing to do. So I knew I was different. The fear of losing my family, my friends, because as
one of Jehovah's Witnesses, you're not supposed to have friends outside of the church. They're considered

(02:59):
worldly. So they keep you engulfed in just having friends that are Jehovah's Witnesses. So I knew when
I come out that I would lose them all. I would lose them all. I think because of that, I got buried in
a religion that is extremely restrictive and therefore I'm used to following rules. So I'm a good

(03:28):
rule follower. Big people please. They're rule follower. I didn't have the understanding that I needed
to deal with my sexuality and who I was as a person before I could actually come out. It's 70 years

(03:50):
old. I didn't come out until I was 70. But you just keep burying and burying and burying and working
yourself all the time that you don't have to think about who you are. And anytime I'd have these feelings
of, because I've always worked out, I've always gone to the Health Club and I'd be given these

(04:11):
wonderful talks in the congregation or at a convention and I'd come back and see these guys in the
locker room and I would have these, oh God, you know. And then this shame gets even loaded even more on
you. So the only way you do the more shame you get the more work you do, you just keep addicting,

(04:31):
addicting, addicting. You don't have to think about it anymore. I did that for seven generations.
Wow. Well, let's jump back in time a bit though. You did get married twice your marriage. I did.
The first one you had a daughter and you got married, it's 21. I got married at 21. Did your
sexuality come out during that relationship at all? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Because

(04:53):
when you're wanted to hold with the witnesses, you can't have sex until you're married. So a 21-year
old with a little hormones raging, I wanted to have sex. So I had to get married. And that marriage
lasted 26 years because when you're married as one of your host witnesses, you don't divorce.
So you just stick it out except the only scriptural grounds you have is if someone commits adultery,

(05:18):
then you're free to re-marry. After 26 years and because it had gotten so,
the relationship had festered so much that I just, I can't do this anymore. And then I ended
up in a divorce and I wasn't allowed to marry again because I didn't have what they call a scriptural
divorce. And to be honest at that time, David, I think I was really denying that I really was a gay

(05:44):
person. I just found myself attracted to men and when I would do that, I just would work harder to
kind of not have to deal with it. I know it's a long time to be able to do that.
So you got married then to a second woman? I did.

(06:05):
Assume you resolve things with the church to be able to do that at some level.
Well, we both got to fellowship. We got kicked out of the church.
Which means that you're like, don't exist to them then when you're in the fellowship.
The shunning starts. Okay. And so, and what that means you go to the meetings, nobody can talk to you,
family can't have anything to do with you. It's a shunning. It's a shunning thing.
And after that, after that, I thought, you know, I said, standing out,

(06:31):
I don't know if I want to come back or not. She said, well, I want to come back. And so we did.
And we became very active again in the congregation. And she was well known in the
Jehovah's Witnesses as a full-time pioneer minister, which means she don't donates a lot of time to
the ministry. And so we came back and we got back in good standing. Well, level is the congregation.

(06:58):
And I continued on my merry way still adepting to religion and what you talked about living this
40 60 life where you said 40% of me is heterosexual with my beautiful wife. And I'll dabble in 60%
by just looking at naked men in the shower at the gym. How did that work out for you?
Well, I said the rest thing because I had a psychologist that told me that, you know,

(07:21):
that where it's sexual values on the spectrum, you know. And I spectrum because I, you know,
I had been with two women. You know, I was able to father a child. Did you think you were bisexual at
the time then? I did, I did in my mind thinking I must be bisexual because, and I think part of it

(07:41):
is because I had a child. The second thing is is because it's easier to say bisexual that it is
to say, okay, for me, it might. And so, so what I ended up doing is, and that psychologist says,
well, it's a spectrum for you. And I said, well, I can live really good in the 40% because I did love

(08:02):
my wife, my second wife. And the 60%, you know, will be manageable. It'll be manageable.
And it's interesting before Sandy and I got married, I called him and said, I didn't come out to him
when I first went to him. And by the way, the psychologist was a gay man. Mary too, his partner for several

(08:27):
years. Wonderful, wonderful person. And I went to him before and I said, I have not told her that I'm
bisexual. I don't know if I should. And he said, well, you, if you feel you can live really good in
that 40%. You don't necessarily have to tell her anything. And so I didn't. I'm not sure that was the

(08:50):
best advice, but that's advice I got at the time. And for me, to even deal with the fact as I was
attracted to men, I was still at the time day, was still fighting myself. So to tell something to
someone else, when I wasn't accepting it myself completely, I chose not to do.

(09:11):
So how did it finally come about and tell her that you're gay? When did that transpire?
Excellent, excellent point. And keep in mind, I was a work addict. So I sold my company.
I had been very successful in our industry. So when I turned 70 years old, I sold my company.

(09:32):
Well, I didn't have that to addict any to anymore. I finally began to realize, and a lot of that was
through therapy. And to realize that I'm not a broken man. I'm a man with a huge amount of shame.
I've got to be able to deal with the shame of who I am. And for me, David, once I was able to deal

(10:00):
with the shame of who Dan Bowlin was, I was able to be able to pass on my authenticity. It was not
an easy trip because at the time when I came out to my wife, I had had a brief affair. I had

(10:21):
the favorite of the man. Went home and told her immediately that resulted in a judicial committee.
And I was just fellowship from the church. That was the lowest point of my life. I'd ended in an
attempted suicide on my part. And in my mind, I thought, I do not want to die living a lie.

(10:42):
I do not want to die living a lie, living a lie to myself and living a lie to others. And so that's
when I decided, of course, I'd already came out as gay to my wife, got this fellowship. She was
obviously hysterical. But it was a point of turning for me when I realized that I'm a gay man,

(11:05):
I'm beginning to like who myself is. Was that your first time with a man too?
I had an affair one time when I was, let's see, 13 years old and he was 15. But the shame was so deep,
I never had an affair with a man until I was 70. So this guy, which you met at the gym in the book,

(11:30):
that was the first man that you'd actually had something with. Yeah. And how did that feel to you
compared to what you knew before? The reason I'm kind of, it felt pretty amazing.

(11:50):
And that's also when I knew, oh my God, this is who I am. And then of course, it's went down from there
with, you'll see an attempted suicide. But then I had to start building myself back again,
but I was still hanging on to religion, hanging on to my friends, hanging on to my family,

(12:13):
even though I didn't have them because I'm just fellowshiped. And so I tried for over a year.
And then finally I had done enough work on myself through therapy and through my own personal
growth and work. But I sat down with my wife and I said, Sandy, you can't be married to a gay man.

(12:35):
Her requirement was if we stayed together, then I have to come back to the church and I have to be
reinstated. And I said, I thought I said to her, I came out of the closet, I'm not going back in.
And I think for me, I think that was David. I think that was the more powerful moment for me

(13:01):
when I was able to say to her, I needed divorce. I don't want you to be married to a gay man.
And it was grief on my part because I loved her as much as I've loved to walk.
How did she react? Was she surprised? Was this new news to her? Did she have an inkling of thinking
something was going on? No, she was devastated. She did not want the divorce even though I had been,

(13:26):
I had committed adultery. And yeah, she didn't want it. But I also knew for me,
and for her, it had to be the best decision for both of us. And what happened for me,
once I made the decision, it was painful. But I had a sense of peace I've never had before.

(13:48):
I mean, I had a deep sense of peace. I know who I am. I'm a gay man. I'm not going to let, I can't give her
everything she needs as a gay man. I just can't give her. And she can't give me everything I need
as an heterosexual woman. So it's been almost four years. I want to pause just a second because I don't

(14:14):
want to just go by for others because I talked to other men, some that have never had a sexual
experience with a man. And they're unsure that they're gay, but they know how they feel.
And I just want to make the point is you just made is that you knew you were gay, but you had never
had a sexual experience yet. And it was validated essentially when you did, but didn't necessarily

(14:37):
need that to validate your feelings that you'd had for 70 years that you could recall.
It's the powerful inside us. We kind of know, you know, we'll say, how do you know? Well, you just know.
And you do know, you also bury it so deeply that after a while you don't know.

(14:57):
With all the shame and the guilt and that. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, one of the things that
was powerful for me, David, if I can share this with our audience here, I came to a point that I
loved myself as a beautiful gay man. I'm a wonderful gay man. I'm not saying that because of
ego, I'm saying that I am a giving man. I've always been giving to people. I've always been the

(15:19):
patriotic of my family. I'm in a business where I'm giving and helping people with their careers.
That's just who I am. But I'm gay. And to me, I came to a point and I think this was powerful for me
if I could share it. Nobody defines who I am. My wife does not define who I am. My church does not

(15:40):
define who I am. My partner, John does not define who I am. My friends do not define who I am.
Religion does not define who I am. You, David, do not define who I am. I define who I am.
And where the strength for me and the power for me came from that is that regardless of what

(16:05):
happens in my life, I'm with a very beautiful man. We've been together as I mentioned four years.
But if something happened, we weren't together, I would grieve. I would grieve. Very serious grief.
But I would be okay because I define me. It's beautiful. I like that.
That is the first step of acceptance, accepting yourself before others can even consider.

(16:27):
Yeah, I think that and that to me was a powerful point. And finally, when I was able to believe it for
myself, I've been able to share that with others. More of my interview with Dan in Just a Moment.
But first, I'd like to recommend a book I found insightful on my own coming out journey.
The book is Daring Greatly, How the Courage to Rebornable transforms the way we live, love,

(16:50):
parent and lead by Brunei Brown. In Daring Greatly, you explore vulnerability, courage, and the
power of embracing one's own authentic self. While the book may not directly address coming out
experiences, its insights into shame, vulnerability, and the importance of whole-hearted living are
invaluable for anyone on a journey of self-discovery and personal development.

(17:12):
Again, the book is Daring Greatly by Brunei Brown.
For more books and online resources about coming out later in life, visit OutlateWithDavid.com.
To read more about today's guest and his personal story, check out his book, The Courage to Be Courageous,
a memoir of struggle, success and truth. Now back to more of my conversation with Dan.

(17:35):
So you mentioned you had a partner. How did you find him after you went through this?
And now you're this gay man who has accepted himself, you're divorced, you've lost all your friends,
you've lost your spouse, and now it's Dan. That is correct.
Dan just sitting alone in his home, then for some purpose.
Well, I think for me, I began to realize I've lost the community, and I have to find a community.

(18:01):
The community is not going to find me because I don't know why it exists. I got to find one.
So I started finding a community, and that's when I joined Frontmunners Organization, International
Gay Group. It's a running club. It's called the Frontmunners and Walkers.
It's an international group, which people frontmunners walkers. We belong to them here in Phoenix,

(18:25):
and also in San Diego where my condo is in La Jolla. So I found a community.
Now I was not because my wife did not want me going back to the same gym where I met this person.
I had to change gyms to satisfy her. That's when I met John.

(18:45):
And John and I became very good friends. He did not know initially I was gay.
We found that out by talking, and he had been married. He was married to a man.
Came out gay when he was in his mid-20s. He began my friend.

(19:06):
Finally, I was open to him and telling him I was going through a divorce.
And even that was hard for me because I've still been a rookie trying to get
fixed this out. He became my best friend. John and I were best friends

(19:28):
before we ended up falling in love. We both ended up getting divorced. Of course, I got a divorce
before he did. And then we became friends. And he is my, he's my life partner. He enhances my life.
He enhances my life. He just doesn't define it.

(19:49):
What about the larger community besides him? If you found a larger community,
since you lost your church family and your own family, I'd assume as well. If they're all members
of the church, you lost everybody. I lost everybody except my daughter. My daughter, who was not
active, as Jojo was witness, totally accepts her dad as gay. And two of my three grandchildren

(20:12):
accept their dad as gay. My other granddaughter does not because she's part of the church and will not
have anything to do with me. And the only thing I can give her is forgiveness and give my
family and friends that I lost for forgiveness. But what ended up happening that would become part

(20:32):
of front runners. We have an organized group every Friday that meets a downtown Phoenix. That's
probably 20 or 30 people. Three or four of my interview to my podcast. My community has just gotten
bigger and bigger and bigger. I have many heterosexual friends. I think I'm addicted to

(20:56):
pickleball, which I play three times a week. I have many good friends there. Some gay, most of them not.
Back to the majority or not. And many have never read my book and my story. And so there is a
network of friends out there. And it's just a matter of I don't sit back and wait for them to come.

(21:16):
I try to take the initiative and bring people into my world. So we have some incredible, credible gay
friends. And I'm so proud that we've taken the action to be able to do that.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map

(21:38):
a course to achieve the things you really want. Together we are all unwind those persistent
self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable
goals. Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward
to discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services,

(22:01):
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
You're listening to Outlate with David.
I
want to jump back in time. There's one thing that's just in my head. I can't put the dots together.
After 70 years, you had the fling with the guy in the gym and then went and told your wife at the time,

(22:24):
you know, this is what I've done, which is in your marriage. What was the motivating factor you
think that really brought you to that point where you crossed that line?
Wow. I had been getting therapy. She had been getting therapy. I had come out and told her before I

(22:45):
had the affair that I had same-sex interest. That was so shaming for me. I think once I sold my
business and then I was going to the club and this gentleman was younger than me and it just ended
up happening. What happened was extremely phenomenal. Then I knew it kind of defined that I really knew

(23:18):
who I was. I think that that was where I began to realize and understand that I was a gay man.
I don't know if I asked your question on all of that.
What I heard is that the barrier of your focus of your work by selling your business freed up your
brain. Yes. To expand, I tell a similar story. I was no longer working for the Department of Defense

(23:44):
where they asked the questions, are you a communist? Do you have to over throw the US government?
Are you homosexual? That I used to get and once I was out of that environment, that freed up my
brain and I believe that was one of the reasons why I came to my realization that I was gay.
So it sounds like you're gay. Do you realize when you answered, no, I'm not gay. Did you realize that
as a lie or were you even denying you were gay? I was denying the thoughts that I was having but at

(24:08):
the same time I was terrified that I would be discovered what was in my head. It was a contradiction
that was huge. Yes. I'd say no, I'm not gay as long as people can do what they want to do. Just don't
approach me. I totally get that because I think in my mind, I could have I denied it so deeply

(24:31):
in for so long, so deeply. I think I could have passed a lie detector test to say I was not gay.
That's how deeply I buried it because that's to tell you what shamed us.
Shame will cause you to deny things and the most serious thing you desire is who you are.

(24:55):
That's the biggest shame thing is denying who you are. You'd said that you were excited by the
specter of telling truth because vulnerability can also bring peace. So what are you doing now that
gives you that sense of peace on a daily basis? That's a great question. I think

(25:18):
I get up in the mirror every morning and look and say I like what I see in the mirror. I think I also
how I ended up writing this book, The Courage to Be Courageous. I wrote it because I lost my whole family.
And my therapist said, "Have you ever thought about writing a book?" I'm in Moa and I said,

(25:43):
"Well, I'm not a writer. He said, "Well, I'm going to put you in contact with a professional writer."
I said, "Okay, I'll write it because I was going through all of this therapy. But only so my family
can see the real Danny. They call me Danny because they're not going to see the real Danny because they
won't talk to me." So this is really a letter to them then? Is the motor rate? It actually is a letter to them.

(26:08):
And a letter to my ex-wife who I still love dearly. We all have fear in our life. It's common. We all
have courage. And my book and my podcasts are about embracing the fear and using courage to go

(26:28):
through it. And finally, my voice comes out through my memoir and through my podcast. I get more
out of the podcast from my guests and I feel that I give them. Every time I do a podcast, I just get
excited to hear the courage of people have what they've had to overcome in their life and how they've

(26:50):
been able to move on as they're authentic self. And so because of that now, and I'm scheduled to do
four podcasts a month, that's where my time is being spent. I have to be a little careful because I'm
a recovering worker. The number one priority in my life is taking care of me. The second priority is

(27:12):
taking care of my partner, John. And third is my podcast. But it is a voice because so many of our
rights are being taken away. And one of the organizations I support is the SAGE organization. And they say
without a voice, we are silent. And we're silent. Nothing gets done. And I'm not silent anymore. I was

(27:37):
silent for 70 years. I have a voice. And not everybody will necessarily agree with every part of my
podcast. Not every people are in favor of it. I understand it. And I accept that. But they don't
have to listen to it. Okay. So that's one of the things in the gifts that I've been able to give to
our community is to have a voice for them. Well, thank you for doing that. So for those that are

(28:02):
having the realization, there's something about their sexuality, but not sure about. What is the key
piece of advice that you give to them? Be honest with yourself. Be honest and define who you are.
And that may cause some layers to come off that certainly will cause fear. But be honest with yourself.

(28:30):
Don't look for someone outside you to define who you are. Thank you. I think that's a good advice.
Know yourself. Be honest with yourself. Understand your fears and work through them is what I heard.
And thank you today for the time and sharing your story and the advice. Because as you know,
like I do, these stories are powerful. They'll help people. We don't even know or out there.
Someone will hear this. Someone will share this and we'll help them in some way for them to move on

(28:54):
in their life. So can I share something? Can I share something with you, David? Yes. I am so proud
to have met David in my life because we're on the same, we're on the same page. We're doing podcasts
to help people to be able to be a safe place for them to fall. And I thank you so much for the work

(29:17):
you're doing. I applaud you for what you're doing. And you're making a big difference in our community.
I've listed several of your podcasts are outstanding. They're amazing. And continue up the good work
because you are part of the voice of our community. Thank you. Oh, thank you, Dan. Thank you, Dan
Bolin. And thank you for being here today. I learned from you too. As I said earlier,

(29:40):
reading your book and maybe reflect on myself. So you're having impact there as well.
In Dan telling his story, it made me realize something about myself. I might have been an overachiever
as well to mask who I really am, a gay man. For Dan, he realized he became an overachiever
to keep his family and personal secrets quiet with the biggest secret being he was a gay man.

(30:04):
He did everything to become number one. He depended on others to give him a steam from his work ethic
because he had no self-esteem. This might be true for many of us, whether we realize it or not.
We don't have the validation from those we love for who we really are because they may not
know our true self so we put our energy into areas where we can be recognized and validated

(30:28):
for our success. If this resonates with you, pause and explore what you might be hiding from
yourself and others. That's it for now. Join us next time on Outlate with David.
To hear more episodes, visit Outlate with David.com and to learn more about personal life coaching

(30:48):
services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dan Bolen - at age 70 came out as gay, kicked out of his church and ended his 2nd marriage