October 19, 2023 • 29 mins
Dr. Loren Olson is a successful psychiatrist, and a husband and grandfather who came out at age 40 after 18 years of marriage.
He is highly respected in his field, having presented extensive research on mature gay men to the World Congress in Psychiatry.
An award-winning author… he’s most well-known for his book, “Finally Out: Letting Go of Living Straight.”
Book Recommendation: Finally Out: Letting Go of Living Straight by Dr. Loren Olson https://a.co/d/hDUZ4FO
Other Writings By Dr. Olson:
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
He is highly respected in his field, having presented extensive research on mature gay men to the World Congress in Psychiatry.
An award-winning author… he’s most well-known for his book, “Finally Out: Letting Go of Living Straight.”
Book Recommendation: Finally Out: Letting Go of Living Straight by Dr. Loren Olson https://a.co/d/hDUZ4FO
Other Writings By Dr. Olson:
- No More Neckties: A Memoir in Essays https://a.co/d/96eUu8W
- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finally-out/202307/to-be-happy-think-like-an-old-person
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Music]
(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cudden.
I'm a father of brother of son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive and the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,
(00:26):
I'm gay.
Join me as I talk with others who have made this coming out journey
late in life to become who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
My guest today is a successful psychiatrist and a husband and grandfather
who came out at age 40 after 18 years of marriage.
(00:50):
He is highly respected in his field, having presented extensive research
on mature gay men in the world congress in psychiatry.
And award winning author, he's most well known for his book,
finally out letting go of living straight.
Today I'll be talking with Dr. Lauren Olson.
[Music]
(01:12):
Well, Lauren, it's great to have you here today.
It's so good to be with you, David.
Thank you. I know we've met before and talked,
so I'm somewhat familiar with you.
A read your book.
Really liked it.
It was one of the first ones that I read.
So I appreciate that.
Help me on my journey.
So you were 40 when you decided to come out, you were married with kids.
And for a lot of the men that listen to this podcast and some similar,
(01:34):
the burning question they have and they always want an answer to is,
how do you come out to a woman you've been married to for such a long time?
Well, it's very painful. It's very difficult.
It's a slow process, I think.
And there are consequences.
And I think many of us put it off for a long time because we're faced with a choice of dealing with the losses that go along with coming out
(02:01):
or living a secret and both are painful.
Both are painful.
And so for me, it was falling in love with a man.
And I knew that I could not put that away again.
That intensity of emotion that I felt when I met this guy,
and because of that, I knew that I was going to continue to cheat on my wife if I was stayed married.
(02:26):
And it was a fear of being exposed in that and bringing greater humiliation to them if I didn't come out and deal with it.
So it was in my mind at that time the risk of humiliating them by being exposed in some public way.
I seemed worse than being honest.
(02:48):
If I understood your story correctly in the book, your wife actually confronted you with a bunch of sexuality based on information she found on the computer,
is that the time you actually came out to her or did it happen before that incident?
You know, psychiatrists still believe that anything is accidental.
And so if I look back on it, even though she discovered it, I think I left it there for her to discover.
(03:13):
Looking back on it, I wasn't surprised when she brought it to me.
Well, when she brought it to you, were you kind of terrified? Were you calm, confident when you had that conversation?
No, actually, the first conversations we had during that time after I was exposed were some of the most honest conversations we'd had in our marriage.
(03:36):
She was honest about a lot of things that she hadn't talked to me about and I was honest to her about things.
And there was a real sense of emotional intimacy that occurred during that period of time.
The pain that really came after that was more related to dealing with issues around child care and finances.
(03:57):
And the kinds of things we thought about when we were married.
You know, it was in different issues. It was just how do we divide all of this up?
But that was a painful time for me. I mean, one of the worst days of my life was moving out of the house and packing up my things and not here wasn't going to be back there except as a guest.
Yeah, I could understand that.
(04:20):
Well, how did she react though after she presented this to you?
I think understanding as much as anybody can, I think it's very difficult. The response was a lot of tears, a lot of pain, a lot of talking about that.
And then when we got down to negotiating the divorce and stuff, things got more troubled for a period of time.
(04:45):
It takes some anger to separate emotionally. They have a loss on both sides.
Huge loss.
What could have been and what was. And I think that's a really key David.
When we enter a marriage or when we have a child, we sort of imagine a future together.
(05:06):
And both she and I entered our marriage in good faith with the idea that we would grow old together. That was our understanding.
And so you have that life plan sort of in your head as a model of what you want to get to.
And so you're not only grieving what you've given up, but you're grieving up all those dreams that you had of what was to come and isn't going to come now.
(05:29):
And that was particularly hard with the children, I think, because as you know from reading the book, I lost my father when I was very young and I had an idea that I was going to be the best father I could possibly be.
And you know, walking out and away from your children isn't being the best father you can be.
How old were your children at the time? They were nine and thirteen.
(05:51):
Yeah. And it was very painful for them still is actually probably.
We have a good relationship now, but I think that time in her lives was awful for all of us.
How did they react to that news that you were separating and did you come out to them as well as to why?
No, I didn't come out to them at that time. They were mortified. Actually my younger daughter is a very emotionally sensitive person and she went to school.
(06:23):
I suppose she was in the fourth grade or something like that at that time.
And she announced to her class that we were getting divorced. And this was before my wife and I had even talked about it.
My other daughter, who was thirteen, was you know, being a teenager and involved in her own life and sort of not noticing things as much.
And when I told her that we were having trouble on public and a divorce, she was just horrified by the whole thing.
(06:50):
She really blindsided her. So it was quite a different response between the two of them.
How did you figure out when the right time was to actually come out to them about your sexuality?
I was separated and I think the divorce was probably finalizing at that time.
And I had someone in my life and I wanted them to know him.
(07:16):
And so I thought it was going to be important for them to understand at that point.
I made a big deal about it. I planned this big day where we were going to go out on a sailboat and I planned to pick me up for them.
And then like we all do, I said, I have something I have to tell you.
(07:37):
I'm gay and they said, "Oh dad, we already know."
They already knew. They already knew. And they've never told me how they knew.
And I've asked them about it. But you know, I think we give off clues.
If they see us interacting with another man, the way that two men interact is not the same.
(08:05):
Just for example, when straightening a hug each other, they never put their pelvis together.
You know, it's kind of fun of that. You push them a part as far as you can or you stand side by side and you pat three times on the back.
And that's a hug. Gamer and really embrace it in a really warm way and don't worry about that nearly as much.
(08:29):
And so I think that we give off kind of clues like that when we're with someone like that.
And people see that in a different way, even though we may not know we're doing it differently.
Based on your experience and also your professional experience as well, what can a man do in the situation to help his wife kind of cope emotionally?
Or is it something that she just has to work through on her own?
(08:52):
I really don't think that you can be both the supportive partner and the separating and divorcing partner.
I think as painful as it is, we often need to guide them to finding their own resources and support.
I hear that from a lot, because a lot of us really loved our wives.
A lot of us really entered those marriages, loving their wives in the best way that we possibly could.
(09:17):
Now we may learn later that it wasn't enough or that it wasn't in the right way, but we didn't know it at the time.
And so many of us want to try and minimize the pain.
But that sends a conflicting message to the spouse. You know that you're going to be there to be the father protectors and the provider.
You're going to do all that kind of stuff. At the same time you're going to walk away.
(09:41):
And it's I think crazy making for a lot of spouses in that situation.
To build on that in your perspective as a psychiatrist, is there a good or a bad way to come out to your spouse or partner?
I think there's only bad ways.
You know, there's I think it's going to hurt some spouses have some knowledge of it.
(10:02):
Some men have told their spouses early on in the relationship.
But you know, it's really turning their wives totally upside down.
And some of them are completely blindsided by some of them have suspicions.
But at the same time it's it's good to be painful and there's no easy way around that.
(10:23):
Each episode I'd like to recommend a book that I found helpful in my coming out process.
So it seems only fitting I recommend finally out letting go of living straight by today's guest, Dr. Lauren Olson.
This book was one of the first I read during my own coming out journey.
The book is a blend of his own personal coming out story interwoven with insights from his perspective as a psychiatrist.
(10:46):
In the book he offers himself as a role model in providing vital information to gay men coming out later in life.
Again, that's finally out letting go of living straight by Dr. Lauren Olson.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
In your personal situation did you try to remain married at first and then decided separation and divorce was the end or just went right to the...
(11:09):
No, I knew I couldn't stay. I really went right away to the idea that we had to separate and divorce.
Based on your experience as a psychiatrist do people usually separate or divorce that come out as gay in a relationship or do many of them stay together in a mixed orientation marriage?
Well, certainly there are those who make those mixed orientation work.
(11:32):
It's not easy. It's very difficult, I think, and it means renegotiating all the rules that you had in your relationship before.
I think a lot of honesty, I think in looking at affairs and the way that we betray spouses, that it isn't the sex that is the problem.
(12:00):
The problem is the lies that surround it.
The lack of trust, the lack of trust, is absolutely the killer for the relationship.
Trust can be reestablished in a relationship, but it takes a long time and you can't just say you can trust me now.
You have to demonstrate that by your behavior over a long period of time.
(12:22):
For couples who want to stay in a mixed orientation marriage, I think if looking at what are the good rules going to be and then being honest.
In your book, finally, out you say you often hear the question, "How did you know in your gay?" So, "How did you know you were gay?"
Oh, man. I believe it really turned down. Someone kissed me.
(12:49):
I had a lot of ideas before I came out. I mean, I was really naive. I had no same-sex experience until I came out or until I filmed with the sky.
I had very basic questions. How do you do things? How is all that negotiated? I had very basic questions like that. No one to ask.
(13:19):
But what happened was I fell in love with a guy that I met at the gym and we started seeing each other and very soon after we met, he kissed me.
I had a "Wow, I had not expected that." And I think in many ways that kissing someone is more intimate than actually the sexual act.
(13:43):
You're eye to eye, you're looking into each other's souls. And for me, kissing is probably the most intimate part of sex. And it was at that moment I thought, "I can give this up."
That's who I am. When you were married at the time, it was during the AIDS epidemic. It was in full swing. There was a lot of anti-gay sentiment was high.
And I had other guests who talked about that same time, kept them even from exploring their sexuality and stayed in the closet and didn't do anything with it. How did that time impact you?
(14:15):
Well, it was a very difficult time. Because I had had one relationship with a guy who was also married, that was the first relationship that I had.
And we were monogamous with each other, as except with our wives too. But as that affair began to fall apart and it began to explore other relationships and things, then it became a bigger concern.
(14:46):
It was also in the 80s and at that time I couldn't be out professionally. There were no identified gay physicians that I knew at that time. And even the clinic that I worked for, there were 54 doctors.
There were only three who'd ever been divorced. One of them had been accused of having a same sex contact and had been a big deal with in the clinic. But I mean, it was a whole different time in our world, David, during that period of time.
(15:19):
And I had a new job as medical director of psychiatry at a large hospital here in Des Moines. And I was afraid that I was going to lose that job.
And I had to have an income to pay the Alamona and child support and to live on. So I was very closeted. And one of the most painful things that happened during that period of time was I was sitting on a committee that was trying to develop the criteria for an HMO.
(15:46):
And the woman who was writing the committee, she said, I think we've discovered some questions so we can identify the gay people so we don't have to ensure them.
And I was helpless to respond because I couldn't take the risk of exposing myself. And it still carries a great sense of shame for me that I didn't feel powerful enough to speak out about that.
(16:14):
But it was shortly after that that I met Doug and Doug was hospitalized for some belly pain. And one of the doctors came in and said, well, the reason you have that squishy got HIP. He didn't.
You know, he didn't even test him. The doctor assumed because he knew he was gay that he was suffering from complications with HIV.
(16:38):
So it was a horrible time. And why we were protected somewhat from a large community of people dying, but we did have a number of friends who did.
And I think in many ways, staying married as long as I did probably kept me alive. Had I come out and moved to Chicago or New Orleans where I had planned to go?
(17:01):
I know that I would have become a part of the gay community at that time and come out much earlier, but instead for whatever reasons I stayed in the Midwest in a small town in Nebraska, married my wife and followed the predictable course for my life.
When was there a shift in your professional world that allowed you to come out professionally or did you when you were still working in those jobs?
(17:26):
Without being too specific about it, there was a problem physician on the medical staff. He came to the hospital one day and told me one of the social workers that I was gay. And he was going to help me to the administration.
And so I called up the woman who had hired me and I said, Sharon, I need to tell you I'm gay. And she said, we knew that before we hired you.
(17:51):
Well, I didn't think anybody in the world knew other than my wife and myself and a couple of them.
At that point, I came to a real sense of peace because I knew they had hired me based on my qualifications.
And at least to that administrator being gay wasn't an issue. And so I felt really much more secure. And then I began to come out to the staff that I worked with and other positions, but it was a slow process.
(18:25):
You're listening to OutLate with David.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
(18:51):
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you and moving forward to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
Well, time is marched on and somewhat and the culture has changed and policy has changed and law has changed.
(19:17):
But as you and I know, there's a whole generation of closeted men, you know, baby boomers in particular, like I came out late, that are hiding their same sex attraction.
What keeps them in the closet today based on your experience?
I think there's a variety of things. I think religion is a big one for many people. I think various things in the culture do it.
(19:42):
I think bottom line in all of that is, I wish to please other people, to live a life that's dictated to us by other people, whether it's religion or government or cultural values or whatever it is.
Often times we're good at what we do because we work hard to please other people and take care of them.
(20:08):
Coming out is sort of the opposite of that. We're not taking care of other people, taking care of ourselves.
I think that's the bottom line and why it's so difficult. We don't want to hurt other people.
We're there in many cases to try and take away their pain. And when we do that, a lot of times we sacrifice our own pain.
(20:29):
So what I get out of that indirectly is they're not living authentically, exactly. So, to you, how do you live or discover your authentic self?
Well, it's a very slow process. I think everybody does it differently. There's no formula. What led to the book was that I think the process for coming out in midlife is different.
That is because we have built so many networks of connections with other people that we have to up and for people who come out with their teenagers who are in their early 20s.
(21:00):
It's mostly family, friends in general tend to be more supportive. But we have networks that are spouses family.
In many cases, we have children we have to deal with. And we don't stop loving our spouses when we leave them or at least in many cases.
But we do recognize that we're not loving them in the same way that we wanted to or that we did at one time.
(21:26):
So you make the point that sexual identity isn't all about sex. Then once it about sexual identity, that's a tough one.
You know, sexual identity is often defined by other people than ourselves.
But I don't think a person has gained hell they different for themselves. There is no definition of being gay that fits everyone.
(21:54):
Because we all want to live that out in a different way. But I think we're gay when we are finally able to say at least to a few people that we really care about.
I'm gay. This is who I am. This is who I'm always going to be.
Once they go through that process and say, I'm gay, then what might be the psychological steps that they need to go through to come out to their family and their community?
(22:20):
Well, I think it depends on a lot of things who needs to know.
You know, I don't think everybody has to come out to everybody. I know I tell people it's letting in.
Yeah, I like the phrase. I mean, I like letting in. I'm like, I agree with that. I love that phrase.
Because there's only a certain number of people in our lives that we can be really intimate with and close with.
(22:46):
It's really so important to us that we would hate to lose them.
I don't think we have to all wear pride tattoos and tell everybody.
And so I think the circumstances dictates how important is this relationship to you?
If this is a really important relationship and one that you want to go on for a long period of time, then I think it's perfectly important to be honest with that person about it and take the risk that that person may not accept it.
(23:16):
So once they come out, they have the nerve to do that. What are some of the things that they can expect to experience in the months and years to follow as they go on their journey?
Well, I think the biggest thing and I think you will agree with this is the sense of peace.
A loss of that fear that you can be outed by other people because it doesn't matter anymore.
(23:40):
When I talk to people about their decision to come out and say, "Look for friends first."
You know, "Look for the people that you can be with and be supportive of you."
Because if you're going to need them long term, your relationships might not last if you need those people.
(24:02):
And I worry about couples that close themselves off too much because they put all of their emotional events, investment in each other.
And then if it doesn't work, they're left with nothing.
But I think it's so critical for people who are first coming out to develop a sense of animosity and closeness with three or four other people that they can call up and say, "Hey, I need to talk."
(24:28):
And maybe it's just go for a walk in the woods and not really talk about anything, but just somebody to be with who's sensitive to what you're going through.
Fantastic, yes.
So you mentioned how you met your partner with his belly ache.
How did you know he was the one over time?
I tend to be perhaps more impulsive than I should be sometimes.
(24:54):
I felt for Doug very quickly. We met at those times, there were only places to meet where he had bars and it was on my birthday.
And I was lonely and he was there and he was lonely and we dated for about a year after that.
But I was ready to commit to it very early.
And part of it I think was exactly what I was talking about before that, you know, I had this whole in my life needing someone to be into that was.
(25:22):
But that was 37 years ago that we met and we've gone through our tough times too.
But it's always been in the commitment to stay together that's kept us there.
What do you see as your future going forward?
I'm 80 years old, you know.
In many ways it's hard to know exactly how that's going to play out. You know, one of the nice things about being this age is the idea that you cross things off your bucket list without doing it.
(25:56):
Because they're less important, but you also cross friends off your list that are not important to you that, you know, so you're your circle narrows, but becomes more intense.
You know, when you get old, I think what you need or you need solid relationships with people, some financial security and a measure of good health.
And I don't project myself too far into the future.
(26:19):
I don't try and rewrite my history because that's past, you know, I try and live in the moment.
I think we go through a process of reestablishing our values and we commit to the things that are really important and a lot of things we let go because they're less important.
So what advice or encouragement would you give someone a mature man who's contemplating, you know, making that big break in his life, going to step out of the silence, share the truth as a family and friends?
(26:50):
What would you say if they were sitting here right now?
You'll be on a roller coaster.
There are going to be times when you feel that sense of leaving the earth because you're weightless and then you'll sink to the bottom very quickly and it'll be a roller coaster for a while.
And gradually, it'll record roller coasters eventually beat her out and become smooth and you'll figure it out.
(27:18):
When I first came out, one of the most important things that happened to me was I, there was a gay father's group in Des Moines at that time.
And I walked into that room and I felt immediately at home.
I felt a sense of peace.
It was a diverse group of people because that it shattered many of the stereotypes I had about what I meant to be gay.
(27:42):
It also saw a lot of men who still were very committed to their role as being a father.
And that was reassuring to me that I feel like I didn't sacrifice that role as being a father just because I had come out.
Well, Dr. Lauren Olsen, thank you for your time today and being so open, honest and vulnerable about your story and advice for men and women who may be contemplating coming out themselves.
(28:07):
I know from my experience that sharing stories and people hearing them that we don't even know who they are, it will help someone and have an impact on them that we just cannot imagine.
So there is one final thought and that is stories, change minds, statistics dealt.
And it's so important to share our stories.
I love that stories, change mind, statistics dealt.
(28:28):
Thank you again.
Coming out as gay after years of marriage to a woman is unique and terrifying experience. But with encouragement of authors like Lauren Olsen, more and more married men are facing the truth sometimes after years of denial.
Baby boomers who bury their sexual identity in the 60s, 70s and 80s now see a world that is more accepting.
(28:51):
Dr. Olsen's book, Finally Out Letting Go of Living Straight, is an essential resource for any older gay man coming out and learning to live his life authentically.
He continues his story in the second book, No More Nectize.
I very much appreciated Lauren sharing his story. As he said, stories change minds, statistics dealt.
(29:12):
Welcome back to Dr. Olsen for being with us today and thank you for listening. I'm David Cotton. Be with us next time for Outlate with David.
To hear more episodes, visit OutlateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching services go to David Cotton Coaching.com.
[Music]
(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cudden.
I'm a father of brother of son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive and the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,
(00:26):
I'm gay.
Join me as I talk with others who have made this coming out journey
late in life to become who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
My guest today is a successful psychiatrist and a husband and grandfather
who came out at age 40 after 18 years of marriage.
(00:50):
He is highly respected in his field, having presented extensive research
on mature gay men in the world congress in psychiatry.
And award winning author, he's most well known for his book,
finally out letting go of living straight.
Today I'll be talking with Dr. Lauren Olson.
[Music]
(01:12):
Well, Lauren, it's great to have you here today.
It's so good to be with you, David.
Thank you. I know we've met before and talked,
so I'm somewhat familiar with you.
A read your book.
Really liked it.
It was one of the first ones that I read.
So I appreciate that.
Help me on my journey.
So you were 40 when you decided to come out, you were married with kids.
And for a lot of the men that listen to this podcast and some similar,
(01:34):
the burning question they have and they always want an answer to is,
how do you come out to a woman you've been married to for such a long time?
Well, it's very painful. It's very difficult.
It's a slow process, I think.
And there are consequences.
And I think many of us put it off for a long time because we're faced with a choice of dealing with the losses that go along with coming out
(02:01):
or living a secret and both are painful.
Both are painful.
And so for me, it was falling in love with a man.
And I knew that I could not put that away again.
That intensity of emotion that I felt when I met this guy,
and because of that, I knew that I was going to continue to cheat on my wife if I was stayed married.
(02:26):
And it was a fear of being exposed in that and bringing greater humiliation to them if I didn't come out and deal with it.
So it was in my mind at that time the risk of humiliating them by being exposed in some public way.
I seemed worse than being honest.
(02:48):
If I understood your story correctly in the book, your wife actually confronted you with a bunch of sexuality based on information she found on the computer,
is that the time you actually came out to her or did it happen before that incident?
You know, psychiatrists still believe that anything is accidental.
And so if I look back on it, even though she discovered it, I think I left it there for her to discover.
(03:13):
Looking back on it, I wasn't surprised when she brought it to me.
Well, when she brought it to you, were you kind of terrified? Were you calm, confident when you had that conversation?
No, actually, the first conversations we had during that time after I was exposed were some of the most honest conversations we'd had in our marriage.
(03:36):
She was honest about a lot of things that she hadn't talked to me about and I was honest to her about things.
And there was a real sense of emotional intimacy that occurred during that period of time.
The pain that really came after that was more related to dealing with issues around child care and finances.
(03:57):
And the kinds of things we thought about when we were married.
You know, it was in different issues. It was just how do we divide all of this up?
But that was a painful time for me. I mean, one of the worst days of my life was moving out of the house and packing up my things and not here wasn't going to be back there except as a guest.
Yeah, I could understand that.
(04:20):
Well, how did she react though after she presented this to you?
I think understanding as much as anybody can, I think it's very difficult. The response was a lot of tears, a lot of pain, a lot of talking about that.
And then when we got down to negotiating the divorce and stuff, things got more troubled for a period of time.
(04:45):
It takes some anger to separate emotionally. They have a loss on both sides.
Huge loss.
What could have been and what was. And I think that's a really key David.
When we enter a marriage or when we have a child, we sort of imagine a future together.
(05:06):
And both she and I entered our marriage in good faith with the idea that we would grow old together. That was our understanding.
And so you have that life plan sort of in your head as a model of what you want to get to.
And so you're not only grieving what you've given up, but you're grieving up all those dreams that you had of what was to come and isn't going to come now.
(05:29):
And that was particularly hard with the children, I think, because as you know from reading the book, I lost my father when I was very young and I had an idea that I was going to be the best father I could possibly be.
And you know, walking out and away from your children isn't being the best father you can be.
How old were your children at the time? They were nine and thirteen.
(05:51):
Yeah. And it was very painful for them still is actually probably.
We have a good relationship now, but I think that time in her lives was awful for all of us.
How did they react to that news that you were separating and did you come out to them as well as to why?
No, I didn't come out to them at that time. They were mortified. Actually my younger daughter is a very emotionally sensitive person and she went to school.
(06:23):
I suppose she was in the fourth grade or something like that at that time.
And she announced to her class that we were getting divorced. And this was before my wife and I had even talked about it.
My other daughter, who was thirteen, was you know, being a teenager and involved in her own life and sort of not noticing things as much.
And when I told her that we were having trouble on public and a divorce, she was just horrified by the whole thing.
(06:50):
She really blindsided her. So it was quite a different response between the two of them.
How did you figure out when the right time was to actually come out to them about your sexuality?
I was separated and I think the divorce was probably finalizing at that time.
And I had someone in my life and I wanted them to know him.
(07:16):
And so I thought it was going to be important for them to understand at that point.
I made a big deal about it. I planned this big day where we were going to go out on a sailboat and I planned to pick me up for them.
And then like we all do, I said, I have something I have to tell you.
(07:37):
I'm gay and they said, "Oh dad, we already know."
They already knew. They already knew. And they've never told me how they knew.
And I've asked them about it. But you know, I think we give off clues.
If they see us interacting with another man, the way that two men interact is not the same.
(08:05):
Just for example, when straightening a hug each other, they never put their pelvis together.
You know, it's kind of fun of that. You push them a part as far as you can or you stand side by side and you pat three times on the back.
And that's a hug. Gamer and really embrace it in a really warm way and don't worry about that nearly as much.
(08:29):
And so I think that we give off kind of clues like that when we're with someone like that.
And people see that in a different way, even though we may not know we're doing it differently.
Based on your experience and also your professional experience as well, what can a man do in the situation to help his wife kind of cope emotionally?
Or is it something that she just has to work through on her own?
(08:52):
I really don't think that you can be both the supportive partner and the separating and divorcing partner.
I think as painful as it is, we often need to guide them to finding their own resources and support.
I hear that from a lot, because a lot of us really loved our wives.
A lot of us really entered those marriages, loving their wives in the best way that we possibly could.
(09:17):
Now we may learn later that it wasn't enough or that it wasn't in the right way, but we didn't know it at the time.
And so many of us want to try and minimize the pain.
But that sends a conflicting message to the spouse. You know that you're going to be there to be the father protectors and the provider.
You're going to do all that kind of stuff. At the same time you're going to walk away.
(09:41):
And it's I think crazy making for a lot of spouses in that situation.
To build on that in your perspective as a psychiatrist, is there a good or a bad way to come out to your spouse or partner?
I think there's only bad ways.
You know, there's I think it's going to hurt some spouses have some knowledge of it.
(10:02):
Some men have told their spouses early on in the relationship.
But you know, it's really turning their wives totally upside down.
And some of them are completely blindsided by some of them have suspicions.
But at the same time it's it's good to be painful and there's no easy way around that.
(10:23):
Each episode I'd like to recommend a book that I found helpful in my coming out process.
So it seems only fitting I recommend finally out letting go of living straight by today's guest, Dr. Lauren Olson.
This book was one of the first I read during my own coming out journey.
The book is a blend of his own personal coming out story interwoven with insights from his perspective as a psychiatrist.
(10:46):
In the book he offers himself as a role model in providing vital information to gay men coming out later in life.
Again, that's finally out letting go of living straight by Dr. Lauren Olson.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
In your personal situation did you try to remain married at first and then decided separation and divorce was the end or just went right to the...
(11:09):
No, I knew I couldn't stay. I really went right away to the idea that we had to separate and divorce.
Based on your experience as a psychiatrist do people usually separate or divorce that come out as gay in a relationship or do many of them stay together in a mixed orientation marriage?
Well, certainly there are those who make those mixed orientation work.
(11:32):
It's not easy. It's very difficult, I think, and it means renegotiating all the rules that you had in your relationship before.
I think a lot of honesty, I think in looking at affairs and the way that we betray spouses, that it isn't the sex that is the problem.
(12:00):
The problem is the lies that surround it.
The lack of trust, the lack of trust, is absolutely the killer for the relationship.
Trust can be reestablished in a relationship, but it takes a long time and you can't just say you can trust me now.
You have to demonstrate that by your behavior over a long period of time.
(12:22):
For couples who want to stay in a mixed orientation marriage, I think if looking at what are the good rules going to be and then being honest.
In your book, finally, out you say you often hear the question, "How did you know in your gay?" So, "How did you know you were gay?"
Oh, man. I believe it really turned down. Someone kissed me.
(12:49):
I had a lot of ideas before I came out. I mean, I was really naive. I had no same-sex experience until I came out or until I filmed with the sky.
I had very basic questions. How do you do things? How is all that negotiated? I had very basic questions like that. No one to ask.
(13:19):
But what happened was I fell in love with a guy that I met at the gym and we started seeing each other and very soon after we met, he kissed me.
I had a "Wow, I had not expected that." And I think in many ways that kissing someone is more intimate than actually the sexual act.
(13:43):
You're eye to eye, you're looking into each other's souls. And for me, kissing is probably the most intimate part of sex. And it was at that moment I thought, "I can give this up."
That's who I am. When you were married at the time, it was during the AIDS epidemic. It was in full swing. There was a lot of anti-gay sentiment was high.
And I had other guests who talked about that same time, kept them even from exploring their sexuality and stayed in the closet and didn't do anything with it. How did that time impact you?
(14:15):
Well, it was a very difficult time. Because I had had one relationship with a guy who was also married, that was the first relationship that I had.
And we were monogamous with each other, as except with our wives too. But as that affair began to fall apart and it began to explore other relationships and things, then it became a bigger concern.
(14:46):
It was also in the 80s and at that time I couldn't be out professionally. There were no identified gay physicians that I knew at that time. And even the clinic that I worked for, there were 54 doctors.
There were only three who'd ever been divorced. One of them had been accused of having a same sex contact and had been a big deal with in the clinic. But I mean, it was a whole different time in our world, David, during that period of time.
(15:19):
And I had a new job as medical director of psychiatry at a large hospital here in Des Moines. And I was afraid that I was going to lose that job.
And I had to have an income to pay the Alamona and child support and to live on. So I was very closeted. And one of the most painful things that happened during that period of time was I was sitting on a committee that was trying to develop the criteria for an HMO.
(15:46):
And the woman who was writing the committee, she said, I think we've discovered some questions so we can identify the gay people so we don't have to ensure them.
And I was helpless to respond because I couldn't take the risk of exposing myself. And it still carries a great sense of shame for me that I didn't feel powerful enough to speak out about that.
(16:14):
But it was shortly after that that I met Doug and Doug was hospitalized for some belly pain. And one of the doctors came in and said, well, the reason you have that squishy got HIP. He didn't.
You know, he didn't even test him. The doctor assumed because he knew he was gay that he was suffering from complications with HIV.
(16:38):
So it was a horrible time. And why we were protected somewhat from a large community of people dying, but we did have a number of friends who did.
And I think in many ways, staying married as long as I did probably kept me alive. Had I come out and moved to Chicago or New Orleans where I had planned to go?
(17:01):
I know that I would have become a part of the gay community at that time and come out much earlier, but instead for whatever reasons I stayed in the Midwest in a small town in Nebraska, married my wife and followed the predictable course for my life.
When was there a shift in your professional world that allowed you to come out professionally or did you when you were still working in those jobs?
(17:26):
Without being too specific about it, there was a problem physician on the medical staff. He came to the hospital one day and told me one of the social workers that I was gay. And he was going to help me to the administration.
And so I called up the woman who had hired me and I said, Sharon, I need to tell you I'm gay. And she said, we knew that before we hired you.
(17:51):
Well, I didn't think anybody in the world knew other than my wife and myself and a couple of them.
At that point, I came to a real sense of peace because I knew they had hired me based on my qualifications.
And at least to that administrator being gay wasn't an issue. And so I felt really much more secure. And then I began to come out to the staff that I worked with and other positions, but it was a slow process.
(18:25):
You're listening to OutLate with David.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
(18:51):
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you and moving forward to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
Well, time is marched on and somewhat and the culture has changed and policy has changed and law has changed.
(19:17):
But as you and I know, there's a whole generation of closeted men, you know, baby boomers in particular, like I came out late, that are hiding their same sex attraction.
What keeps them in the closet today based on your experience?
I think there's a variety of things. I think religion is a big one for many people. I think various things in the culture do it.
(19:42):
I think bottom line in all of that is, I wish to please other people, to live a life that's dictated to us by other people, whether it's religion or government or cultural values or whatever it is.
Often times we're good at what we do because we work hard to please other people and take care of them.
(20:08):
Coming out is sort of the opposite of that. We're not taking care of other people, taking care of ourselves.
I think that's the bottom line and why it's so difficult. We don't want to hurt other people.
We're there in many cases to try and take away their pain. And when we do that, a lot of times we sacrifice our own pain.
(20:29):
So what I get out of that indirectly is they're not living authentically, exactly. So, to you, how do you live or discover your authentic self?
Well, it's a very slow process. I think everybody does it differently. There's no formula. What led to the book was that I think the process for coming out in midlife is different.
That is because we have built so many networks of connections with other people that we have to up and for people who come out with their teenagers who are in their early 20s.
(21:00):
It's mostly family, friends in general tend to be more supportive. But we have networks that are spouses family.
In many cases, we have children we have to deal with. And we don't stop loving our spouses when we leave them or at least in many cases.
But we do recognize that we're not loving them in the same way that we wanted to or that we did at one time.
(21:26):
So you make the point that sexual identity isn't all about sex. Then once it about sexual identity, that's a tough one.
You know, sexual identity is often defined by other people than ourselves.
But I don't think a person has gained hell they different for themselves. There is no definition of being gay that fits everyone.
(21:54):
Because we all want to live that out in a different way. But I think we're gay when we are finally able to say at least to a few people that we really care about.
I'm gay. This is who I am. This is who I'm always going to be.
Once they go through that process and say, I'm gay, then what might be the psychological steps that they need to go through to come out to their family and their community?
(22:20):
Well, I think it depends on a lot of things who needs to know.
You know, I don't think everybody has to come out to everybody. I know I tell people it's letting in.
Yeah, I like the phrase. I mean, I like letting in. I'm like, I agree with that. I love that phrase.
Because there's only a certain number of people in our lives that we can be really intimate with and close with.
(22:46):
It's really so important to us that we would hate to lose them.
I don't think we have to all wear pride tattoos and tell everybody.
And so I think the circumstances dictates how important is this relationship to you?
If this is a really important relationship and one that you want to go on for a long period of time, then I think it's perfectly important to be honest with that person about it and take the risk that that person may not accept it.
(23:16):
So once they come out, they have the nerve to do that. What are some of the things that they can expect to experience in the months and years to follow as they go on their journey?
Well, I think the biggest thing and I think you will agree with this is the sense of peace.
A loss of that fear that you can be outed by other people because it doesn't matter anymore.
(23:40):
When I talk to people about their decision to come out and say, "Look for friends first."
You know, "Look for the people that you can be with and be supportive of you."
Because if you're going to need them long term, your relationships might not last if you need those people.
(24:02):
And I worry about couples that close themselves off too much because they put all of their emotional events, investment in each other.
And then if it doesn't work, they're left with nothing.
But I think it's so critical for people who are first coming out to develop a sense of animosity and closeness with three or four other people that they can call up and say, "Hey, I need to talk."
(24:28):
And maybe it's just go for a walk in the woods and not really talk about anything, but just somebody to be with who's sensitive to what you're going through.
Fantastic, yes.
So you mentioned how you met your partner with his belly ache.
How did you know he was the one over time?
I tend to be perhaps more impulsive than I should be sometimes.
(24:54):
I felt for Doug very quickly. We met at those times, there were only places to meet where he had bars and it was on my birthday.
And I was lonely and he was there and he was lonely and we dated for about a year after that.
But I was ready to commit to it very early.
And part of it I think was exactly what I was talking about before that, you know, I had this whole in my life needing someone to be into that was.
(25:22):
But that was 37 years ago that we met and we've gone through our tough times too.
But it's always been in the commitment to stay together that's kept us there.
What do you see as your future going forward?
I'm 80 years old, you know.
In many ways it's hard to know exactly how that's going to play out. You know, one of the nice things about being this age is the idea that you cross things off your bucket list without doing it.
(25:56):
Because they're less important, but you also cross friends off your list that are not important to you that, you know, so you're your circle narrows, but becomes more intense.
You know, when you get old, I think what you need or you need solid relationships with people, some financial security and a measure of good health.
And I don't project myself too far into the future.
(26:19):
I don't try and rewrite my history because that's past, you know, I try and live in the moment.
I think we go through a process of reestablishing our values and we commit to the things that are really important and a lot of things we let go because they're less important.
So what advice or encouragement would you give someone a mature man who's contemplating, you know, making that big break in his life, going to step out of the silence, share the truth as a family and friends?
(26:50):
What would you say if they were sitting here right now?
You'll be on a roller coaster.
There are going to be times when you feel that sense of leaving the earth because you're weightless and then you'll sink to the bottom very quickly and it'll be a roller coaster for a while.
And gradually, it'll record roller coasters eventually beat her out and become smooth and you'll figure it out.
(27:18):
When I first came out, one of the most important things that happened to me was I, there was a gay father's group in Des Moines at that time.
And I walked into that room and I felt immediately at home.
I felt a sense of peace.
It was a diverse group of people because that it shattered many of the stereotypes I had about what I meant to be gay.
(27:42):
It also saw a lot of men who still were very committed to their role as being a father.
And that was reassuring to me that I feel like I didn't sacrifice that role as being a father just because I had come out.
Well, Dr. Lauren Olsen, thank you for your time today and being so open, honest and vulnerable about your story and advice for men and women who may be contemplating coming out themselves.
(28:07):
I know from my experience that sharing stories and people hearing them that we don't even know who they are, it will help someone and have an impact on them that we just cannot imagine.
So there is one final thought and that is stories, change minds, statistics dealt.
And it's so important to share our stories.
I love that stories, change mind, statistics dealt.
(28:28):
Thank you again.
Coming out as gay after years of marriage to a woman is unique and terrifying experience. But with encouragement of authors like Lauren Olsen, more and more married men are facing the truth sometimes after years of denial.
Baby boomers who bury their sexual identity in the 60s, 70s and 80s now see a world that is more accepting.
(28:51):
Dr. Olsen's book, Finally Out Letting Go of Living Straight, is an essential resource for any older gay man coming out and learning to live his life authentically.
He continues his story in the second book, No More Nectize.
I very much appreciated Lauren sharing his story. As he said, stories change minds, statistics dealt.
(29:12):
Welcome back to Dr. Olsen for being with us today and thank you for listening. I'm David Cotton. Be with us next time for Outlate with David.
To hear more episodes, visit OutlateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching services go to David Cotton Coaching.com.
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