John Duerler - navigating complexities of coming out while creating community for gay fathers - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Music]

(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cotton.
I'm a father, a brother, a son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive in the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,

(00:26):
I'm gay.
Join me, as I talk with others,
who've made this coming out journey late in life,
to become who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
My guest today is a real-state broker,
an actor, podcaster, and father of two.

(00:47):
Married in his late 40s, he's separated from his wife
after nine years as he was coming to grips with the fact that he is gay.
Still married, but living independently as an out-and-proud gay man,
he sells high-end real estate and is working on a one-man show
about his life.
Joining us from Los Angeles is John Duerler.
Hi, John. Welcome to the show today.
David, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

(01:10):
I appreciate you spending time with us.
Sure.
You have an interesting story, but I want to go back to the beginning.
Is it?
When did you first start feeling that same sex attraction?
It had to be probably when my older brother would bring me into
the football field house after practice.

(01:31):
My brother was a wonderful brother.
He was more like a father. He was older than me.
My father had already left.
He taught me how to fish, how to hunt, how to drive.
He did everything.
But he kept me close. He was always looking out for me.
I would always go to his practices.
I'd walk in the field house with him.

(01:53):
Then there they are.
All the guys going into the showers and I'm like,
"What? What? No. What am I doing?"
So how old were you then?
What was your age?
I was probably, I think I was either 5th or 6th grade.
I can't remember when that was.
I think that's when I, yeah, I've just first noticed

(02:14):
but there was nothing I never felt anything or wanted to,
I just noticed beauty.
So you dated women then through high school?
Oh, yeah.
After high school.
Yeah, even, yeah.
In your 20s and 30s as well?
Yeah, in a women all the time?
Yeah, David, David, women all the time.
But where I grew up.

(02:38):
I grew up in Southeast Texas.
And if you were gay, you didn't last.
Or you got your ass kicked.
Or you got beaten.
I mean, it was not a good place to be.
I think there was a fear, maybe a fear, a subconscious fear, maybe.

(03:00):
But as I just laid out, I was dating women the whole time.
So when you had this subconscious fear,
during that time that I ever crop up,
I kind of like look at the guys again.
And maybe I'd be interested in them.
You know, back then, you know, we all know
there's good looking men, there's good looking women.

(03:22):
We're always attracted to them.
And that's what Hollywood is built on.
So I just, I could appreciate that.
I appreciated a handsome man.
Just like a handsome woman.
So you go through life dating women then,
and you meet the woman that you married eventually.
Did you ever express to her before you were married?

(03:46):
Or after you got married?
You know, that's a good question.
And I think I think we were living together.
I think I shared with her experience with myself.
And when I was a junior in high school.
So I don't think she thought much of it.
But you know, I'm surprised.
You know what? It's so interesting that you break it up.
And she is a litigator.

(04:08):
And she goes right in to find out everything.
So the question could be, did she already know?
I mean, when you're about to marry somebody,
they say that they were with someone.
You know, as, you know, of the same sex, you know,
do you question it?
And she questions everything.

(04:29):
But she didn't question that.
If you don't mind, John, I'd like to hear about the
things you have with your wife now.
I understand that you've been out for some while.
And you're a out gay man.
But you're still married to her.
Yeah, legally married.
But we're not living in the same house.
We, you know, don't sleep together, live together at all.
Just work.

(04:51):
And I structured it when I moved out of the house to make sure
that I was maybe a mile and a half from my boy.
So, you know, we were living separate lives, separate bad
lives, and we got so much counseling.
We had years and years of counseling as well.
And at first I thought maybe I was bisexual.

(05:13):
And I, you know, because I didn't sell to anyone.
I saw so many women.
But if, but was that a mask?
Was that something I was putting, you know, was that something I was
just trying to compensate for?
And again, there was a lot of therapy.
I came to the realization that I'm not bisexual.

(05:35):
I'm a gay man.
And I think, you know, that was part of the coming out and really accepting who I was.
By giving myself little breaks, saying, "Oh, what are you dated?
What do you mean? Oh, you're by."
You know, "Buff, puff, puff."
No. And then the whole thing about this is being true to yourself.
And I had to be true to myself.

(05:57):
So I ended up moving out, moved down about a mile and half from the boys.
And, you know, it's like a triangle of where our office is and in both houses.
So it's very convenient.
And I, we told the boys, you know, that we still love them, that mom and daddy are divorcing.
And they were five and seven at the time.
And a year went by or two years went by.

(06:21):
I need to tell them, because I never told them.
So now they're seven and nine.
And so my youngest, my youngest one is hilarious.
I said, "Hey, son, I need to share with you why you can be in mom divorced."
And I wasn't completely honest with you.
And I need to give you the full truth.
And he said, "Okay."

(06:42):
And I said, "The reason why is that I'm gay."
And he goes, "You look at me."
And he looked at me up and down. He goes, "You're gay."
And I said, "Yeah."
He goes, "So who do you get gay with?"
And I was like, "Well, not really anybody."
And then the next thing out of his mouth was, "So does that mean I'm going to have three daddies now?"

(07:06):
Meaning mom gets remarried the night getting married.
And now he has three daddies.
So he's a little mathematician. Very smart.
And then my other son, who was nine at the time, and I told them separately,
I wanted this to be one-on-one.
I didn't tell them as a family. I didn't tell them as brothers.
I did it just one-on-one with our old friends.

(07:28):
And I said, "If you want to talk, or do you have any questions or anything?"
Well, no dad, that's great.
But that was one thing in my therapy was of coming out.
It was like, you know, it was probably best not to put that on anybody to say, "Don't tell them."
Because I told my mom, my mom came here. The rollout was after the boys.

(07:51):
My family knew them. Most important people in my life knew.
But I was still scared. Don't get me wrong.
But I just needed to let them know the truth.
And from there, I think it would get easier. Sometimes it was sometimes it wasn't.
But I was able to, you know, my mom and my mother is one of five children.

(08:12):
Out of the five of us heard two of them are gay.
And so, her, you know, but it's Catholic. We never talked about it.
You don't talk about it. You don't discuss it.
And that's the generational thing as well.
And oh my God, my uncle, who was my Godfather, who came out gay.
He was very tattooed children. He came out gay.

(08:34):
He knew when I was 14. He knew. And I'll tell you what.
He took me to lunch. And it's a great story. He took me to lunch and he said,
"Hey, John, you know, happy birthday." And I said, "Thanks, Uncle Jamie."
I said, "What do you want to do when you grow up?"
I said, "I want to come work for the family business. We had a paint manufacturer company.
Our business, our family did my grandpa did." And my uncle worked.

(08:59):
And I said, "I want to come work for you." He goes, "No, you don't."
I go, "What do you mean?" He goes, "John Michael, you need to get out of this town."
And you need to go and find out who you really are.
That's the best advice that I can give you.
At 14, he's telling you this.
He told me that. And he didn't tell me that, "Hey, I think you're gay.

(09:23):
Hey, I think you need to, you know, but he knew."
Because he was. And he was living a life with a married woman. And he had two kids.
And he shared that with me. And he finally came. He finally came out.
I'd already joined the Navy and moved to California.

(09:46):
And he came out. He was a wonderful man. And he was living with another man, finally.
But it was very ugly. It was very ugly with his ex-wife and everything.
And he ended up committing suicide, he shot himself.
And it's so sad.
What I think about it, but, you know, what you're doing and what I'm doing is

(10:13):
we're saving people like truly believe. And I think in a sense.
You know, she saved me.
And what I regret so much now is that he's gone.
He can't see the beauty that was live.

(10:41):
So he never got to meet John Michael, as he is for himself today.
But he was there. He showed log. And he showed support.
And so let's pause real quick because you and I know that that's not the solution.
And people sometimes resort to self harm or suicide because they feel so lost.

(11:02):
And you know, reach out to a friend, reach out to a trusted person, a professional.
And if they're by themselves with their phone, 988 is the national suicide mental health hotline 988.
And they can find somebody right then and there.
More of my interview in just a moment. But first, I'd like to recommend a book I found insightful on my coming out journey.

(11:26):
The book is fashionably late, gay, pie, and trans men who came out later in life, edited by Vinny Kancella.
The book is a collection of 16 narratives from individuals who navigated the complexities of coming out later in life as gay by sexual or transgender.
In essence, their second coming of age.
Through their stories, readers will find solace, inspiration, and a sense of community in their own journeys of self discovery and acceptance.

(11:51):
For more books and online resources about coming out later in life, visit outlakewooddavid.com.
So when you came out to the family, did you have any negative repercussions from that at all?
No, I came out to my mother. Yeah, I came out to my mother.
You know, good Catholic woman, she's like, I come home, you know, I need to take the real reason.

(12:17):
Or, or, or, or, or forcing.
And she was like, well, what? I go, I'm gay. And she said, you're gay.
I said, yeah, I know. She was supposed to be that's okay.
Fine, I love you. You know, that, and that, and that, and she goes, you don't want me to tell me what I said.
Absolutely not. I'm not going to put that on you. And if you want to talk to anybody, in fact, if you need to talk to anybody to get advice or what I want you to do that.

(12:45):
And I think she goes, well, I'll probably talk to father for a church. And I go, well, I'm sure he's gay. He'll understand.
So, okay.
So, I said, you go ahead and talk to whoever you want. I'm not going to keep any limitations.
So, that was the beginning of the rollout, you know, telling friends.

(13:07):
But there were still other people that I didn't want to.
I was afraid to tell like my older brother, who was that? Why were you afraid to tell?
Well, he was a father figure. So, if you can put yourself, it's your father, you know, very, you know, macho type of man.
I didn't know if he was going to hang up on me when I called him. So, I texted him first. I said, hey, do you have 30 seconds or an hour to jump on the phone?

(13:38):
He goes, what are you going to do?
Because either, you know, 30 seconds, I'll tell him and he'll hang up.
So, I said, do you have 30 seconds or an hour? And he's, so I, so he said, yeah, call me. So, I called him and he was coming back from each Texas.
And he goes, listen, I'm going to be hitting a dead zone here in about 15 minutes.

(13:59):
So, if we get dropped, I won't, you know, I'll call you back. I said, okay, he goes, what's going on? What's happening?
I said, well, I need to talk to you. He goes, what? He goes, you okay? I said, you know, and I said, look brother.
I'm, I'm gay. Yeah, fuck you, fuck you. Yeah, I'm getting to, that's what I got for me. And I said, no, I'm serious. I'm gay.

(14:22):
Yeah, I know. You didn't want me to cuss on here. Sorry, but I'm quoting. He said, come on, man, that bullshit. You're not gay, you know, whatever.
I said, no, I'm gay because I think went back and forth and then the call dropped because he went through the dead zone.
So, he had 15 minutes or he had, you know, 15 minutes to think about if I'm telling the truth or if I'm not.

(14:50):
And he had to sit with that. And so 15 minutes later, my soul reans and it's my brother. He goes, hey, are you serious? And I said, yeah, I am. He goes, hey, man, it's all good.
You know, my brother is a warrior. He's a warrior. He's a smart man, businessman, but also totally into a Navy. He served in Iraq two or three times.

(15:17):
So he goes to the survival and the protection. So after I told him that he wanted to protect me he goes, "Hey, if anybody ever, ever give you any ship, because you're gay."
He goes, "I want you to get a burner phone. Maybe you call me and I'll come kick their ass."
So that is him saying, "Hey, I love you, and it's okay."

(15:46):
So that was the hardest and the most that I was scared to come out to.
And then I came up to my other friends and started, it just rolled out, rolled out, more people, more people. Then a year and a half ago I had a big coming out party at the Abbey.
And a lot of my friends, yeah, so a lot of my friends.

(16:08):
Yeah, so you know, you didn't put it in, but I've been an actor for 30 years.
So I've done a lot of work and I've done a lot of studying and a lot of classes and all of my old friends from my acting days, you know, 30 years ago,
we all were in class together. I told them, I told a few of the ladies, "Oh my God, we need to have a party for you. We need to have a chattilly."

(16:34):
They said, "Okay, let's do it."
So we had a big party at the drag queen broad show at the Abbey.
And I had 80 people that came from New York, Texas all over.
And my boys were there. My boys were there. And it was awesome.
So did Dead Put on One Man Show for all the 80 people in the family that showed up?

(16:59):
Well, I did get up and speak. I told the story about Uncle Jain.
And everybody just loved that story. And it was just so much love and support that was there because, you know, it was open to the public.
We had a, you know, we had reserved seating. But it was, yeah, I mean, I didn't do my one-man show, which I'm writing right now.

(17:21):
But I got up and talked. It was great. And it was such an amazing.
And so, you know, for people that are out there that are in the position that I was, you know, eight years ago, nine years ago.
It gets better.
And I finally get a lot of surprising, unexpected positive responses from your mother and your brother of coming out.

(17:44):
Did you have any negatives that really stuck with you for family, friends, business associates?
Not at all. Not one other than last month that was in Dallas at a convention.
And I ran into a old football player from high school.
And he wasn't in life. He wasn't, you know, nothing happened.

(18:09):
But he was talking to him. I said, hey, yeah, I go, you know, you should not be reading. We're going to know I keep out.
We meet him out. I guess.
And he couldn't speak. He could not speak. He's just like, book it. And he said,

(18:30):
you are? And I said, yeah, he was, oh, okay.
And then he goes, who, you know, he was you messing around with any of the guys and football?
No.
But, you know, and he was so funny because it wasn't a negative. It was just kind of like a shock.
But he didn't say anything. Other people, a lot of people were shocked. They didn't even think like what you're gay.

(18:54):
And there wasn't like anybody said, oh, I knew, I knew, I knew.
So, you know, it was surprising, but it's just been a good journey so far.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.

(19:19):
Together, we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit DavidCuttonCoaching.com.

(19:46):
You're listening to Outlate with David.
Let's jump to today. You co-host a podcast with Brian Jains coming inside out.
Once the mission of that show, the purpose and what do you do in that show for others?
The great question.

(20:10):
I was at the Eagle in LA and I met this gentleman named Bob at the bar.
He was from Boston and we were talking and he goes, oh, you have children. I said, yeah, I do.
He goes, well, you know, I co-founded the gay father's of Boston. He goes, would you like to start a gay father's of LA with me?

(20:32):
I said, hell, yeah, let's do it. And so we started the gay father's of Los Angeles. And so that's how I met Brian and I met a lot of people.
And we were at dinner one night. There was about, I don't know, 20 of us at dinner.
And we were just all talking about our stories and everything. And I said, you know what guys?
We need to do a podcast. And you know, and just share with people our stories.

(20:58):
Well, three weeks later, Brian comes to me because I want to do this. I've already came up with the name.
And he, you know, he really was his passionate and I'm asking you guys are about getting the word out and helping people that just don't know what to do.

(21:19):
So I'm humbled and just love doing it. And if it helps and you know, he runs the data and tells us how many hits we get or how many downloads we get.
And it's so nice and then we got people that ride in that are in somewhere situation.
We can't. And I even mentioned to him, I said, I go, you know, this doesn't have to be only about gay fathers.

(21:45):
Because I think we're helping gay fathers and I want to continue that. But I go, there's so many other people that are, that are, that do need help.
Like other, you know, like I think women or, or brothers, sisters, mothers that, that their kids have come out. How do they, you know, if we can help anybody in this whole thing, that's what the whole purpose is.

(22:10):
But it's been, you know, mostly gay fathers, which there's a lot of them out there. There's a lot out there. There are, there are.
So by personal, not only personal by John, are you seeking a relationship or how are you doing in that dating world and engaging with all this?
Yeah. Boy, you know, I tell you what.

(22:31):
So, 20 year olds and 30 year olds love me. I'm telling you, I've got to beat them off with a stick. And that's a nice thing to do. It's flattering.
I've come close to, to have a relationship.
I think, you know, within the gay community, I feel that, you know, my experience has been there's just a lot of training, you know, just a lot of hookups and stuff, which is very easy to do.

(23:03):
But to have a meaningful friendship and relationship, I have not, I have a net.
Gardener, yet. What does it you want? Do you know what you want? What you're seeking?
Yeah, I'm seeking a companion. Somebody that, you know, can we can look out for each other and be best friends and love each other, love my kids, got love my kids.

(23:31):
And if they have kids, even better, even better.
But I'm not going to really seek that at the moment, is it happens organically? It happens.
I do put myself out there, I'll go places or what I mean, but, you know, I'm not all the dating, the dating apps, you know, at the moment.

(23:52):
I'm really focused in my life right now with my children, you know, because I had an absentee father.
I know everything. I'm such an awesome father too. I should write a book.
And I will. I'll, I'll, you know, I'll brag about myself because, you know, I didn't have, I didn't have that relationship with my father.

(24:16):
Listen, we're gay men. And the first male relationship you have, we have is our father.
That's the first male relationship we have. And, you know, being gay or straight or whatever, that's your first male relationship.
And, you know, unfortunately, my wife's absent or in and out, even worse because he would come in and out.

(24:42):
So my focus is raising two great young men that, you know, will be contributors to the world.
And that comes first for me right now.
Well, how would you describe your happiness today or level of happiness?
My level of happiness all of one to ten is probably a six.

(25:06):
And I think it's because I'm not completely detached and divorced.
And as I said earlier, I think there's a lot that's that's holding me back creatively, spiritually.
And you know, that was the other thing too coming out in my community here. I was known as a married realtor that had two kids.

(25:31):
And that was something scary for me to come out during, you know, because if the body needs a married man, that was something that I was dreading.
I was dreading it to come out to other agents that knew me as a married man.
They're going to judge me or they're going to, you know, whatever. You said it gans me in some way.

(25:53):
But that didn't happen. I thought it was going to. I was something I was scared about, but it was lying.
So last question. Do you have any very directed pointed advice to give men like yourself that might be in this situation that haven't moved like you have?
Be true to yourself. Get help. Talk to other men that had gone down this road.

(26:20):
You know, there's a website. There's Facebook pages that you can go and you can reach out to.
And I think that's the best advice. Love your children. Love them because they're going to love you.
But, you know, try to do it in a way that don't run away from them. Now it's going to be difficult with your wife.

(26:42):
Absolutely. It's going to be difficult. I'm not going to shudder code that because what I did was I completely traumatized her as she thought she was marrying a heterosexual man.
And, you know, there, there's a lot of there was there was guilt for that. There was, you know, apologies made and everything.

(27:05):
And it's going to be, it's going to be difficult. It's going to be challenging, but you'll get through it. That's the best advice I can share with any man that's going through this right now.
Listen to us right now is your not alone. Not alone. I think your advice of reach out to others and resources such as your own podcast that you do coming inside out.

(27:27):
It's a great resource. And as we know sharing those stories are going to help someone else in ways that we don't really appreciate it.
So thanks, Sean, for taking the time. I appreciate it. Well, thank you. That's all until next time on Outlay with me.
When a man prepares to come out to his wife and kids, it's not uncommon to fear the worst. But for John, each person he told accepted him for who he is.

(27:50):
A coming out story can unfold in many different ways. While much of the outcome can't be controlled, some of it can.
John's dedication to his sons motivated him to take things slow, moving nearby so he could remain fully involved in parenting.
Even now, he continues to work together with his spouse in a business that they share.

(28:13):
John proves that with open communication, a family can find its own solutions.
I encourage you to check out John's podcast coming inside out, which is available on YouTube and wherever you find your podcasts.
I'm David Cotton. Join us next time for Out Late With David.

(28:34):
To hear more episodes, visit OutlateWithDavid.com. And to learn more about personal life coaching services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.

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John Duerler - navigating complexities of coming out while creating community for gay fathers

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