July 4, 2025 • 29 mins
Summary
In this conversation with David, LGBTQ+ ally and researcher Kami Hunley-Jackson, who shares her personal journey and research on the coming out process, particularly focusing on the experiences of LGBTQ+ individuals and their families. The former Latter Day Saint is the mother of two LGBTQ+ children and sister to her gay brother. She discusses the challenges faced by families, the impact of religion, and the importance of communication and support systems. Kami emphasizes the need for understanding and acceptance, both for those coming out and their loved ones, and highlights the mental health implications of the coming out journey. The conversation also touches on the evolving nature of religious acceptance and the importance of creating safe spaces for dialogue. Keywords coming out, LGBTQ+, acceptance, mental health, family support, religion, communication, research, personal stories, allyship
Takeaways
00:00 Understanding the Importance of Coming Out
02:36 Personal Journeys: Family and Acceptance 05:25 The Role of Religion in Coming Out
08:35 Research Insights: Communication and Relationships
11:13 Mental Health and the Coming Out Process
14:05 Support Systems and Resources
16:48 Advice for Families and Individuals
19:51 Looking Ahead: Future Research Directions
Podcast website and resources: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
YouTube Edition: https://youtu.be/jCsPAB9C2aM
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvsthP9yClKI4o5LxbuQnOg
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact David:
In this conversation with David, LGBTQ+ ally and researcher Kami Hunley-Jackson, who shares her personal journey and research on the coming out process, particularly focusing on the experiences of LGBTQ+ individuals and their families. The former Latter Day Saint is the mother of two LGBTQ+ children and sister to her gay brother. She discusses the challenges faced by families, the impact of religion, and the importance of communication and support systems. Kami emphasizes the need for understanding and acceptance, both for those coming out and their loved ones, and highlights the mental health implications of the coming out journey. The conversation also touches on the evolving nature of religious acceptance and the importance of creating safe spaces for dialogue. Keywords coming out, LGBTQ+, acceptance, mental health, family support, religion, communication, research, personal stories, allyship
Takeaways
- Kami's personal experiences with her children and brother shaped her understanding of the coming out process.
- The decision between religious beliefs and family acceptance can be a painful conflict for parents.
- Supportive communities, like Mama Dragons, provide essential resources for families of LGBTQ+ individuals.
- The theater community often offers a more accepting environment for LGBTQ+ individuals.
- Kami's research revealed that non-religious individuals tend to communicate better during the coming out process.
- Mental health issues, including suicidal ideation, were prevalent among the study participants.
- Self-acceptance is a crucial step in the coming out journey, often requiring individuals to confront their identity.
- The coming out process is deeply personal and should be respected as such by family members.
- Creating a safe space for communication is vital for both the individual coming out and their loved ones.
- Religious institutions are evolving, with some becoming more inclusive of LGBTQ+ individuals.
- "I realized that I needed to search my own heart."
- "The love of a mother over the situation."
- "I acted differently this time around."
00:00 Understanding the Importance of Coming Out
02:36 Personal Journeys: Family and Acceptance 05:25 The Role of Religion in Coming Out
08:35 Research Insights: Communication and Relationships
11:13 Mental Health and the Coming Out Process
14:05 Support Systems and Resources
16:48 Advice for Families and Individuals
19:51 Looking Ahead: Future Research Directions
Podcast website and resources: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
YouTube Edition: https://youtu.be/jCsPAB9C2aM
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvsthP9yClKI4o5LxbuQnOg
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact David:
- mailto:david@davidcottoncoaching.com
- https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Music]
(00:12):
You're listening to Out Late with David, true stories of coming out later in life.
And now, here's your host, David Cun.
Raised as a Letter Day Saint, and even though straight herself,
today's guest found her life becoming deeply intertwined with the LGBTQ+ community.
(00:33):
For sure, a strong community ally, she's immersed herself into research about the house
and wise of the coming out process, and hopefully, helping to make it more smooth for the person
and their friends and family.
Joining us today from Houston, Texas, Kami Hunley- Jackson.
[Music]
(00:59):
Hi, Kami, and thank you for being here today.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, glad you're here today, and thanks for taking the time.
You've written a research study about coming out later in life.
It's called Understanding the Journey, Why Some Gay Individuals Suppressed Or Identity.
But before we talk about that,
I want to know, why is it important that this topic for you?
(01:21):
I'd enjoy hearing about your own personal story of why you have the interest.
Well, two of my children are gay, and also my brother.
And they're out openly, so it's okay to say that.
I found myself immersed in religion,
(01:43):
and had a very difficult time with my son coming out in the beginning.
And I feel quite embarrassed about it.
But as I continued to process and accept and slowly become an ally,
I realized that I needed to search my own heart
(02:09):
and figure out what this really means to me.
And then my daughter and then my brother.
So I've had three very significant coming out experiences
of people that I love dearly.
So having all three of those has pushed me in a direction
I never thought I'd be in, which was to understand
(02:34):
and appreciate the point of view of an LGBTQ person and their journey of coming out.
Whether it be when they're a teen or whether they're an older person
who's already been in a marriage, heterosexual marriage.
With your son, you said you had some difficulty with that yourself.
(02:56):
How did that feel as a mom?
Well, it felt awful.
You feel torn between what you've been raised to believe
versus how you truly feel about your child.
So it becomes a juxtaposition of feelings.
(03:20):
And in the end, after you process, which sometimes takes years,
it almost feels like you have to make a decision.
Do you continue down the path of being religious or do you choose your child?
For me, that is what it came down to.
(03:41):
What was the decision that you actually made when you get to that point?
What's the kind of the act or something that occurred you on?
I knew, I was at church one Sunday, and I knew at that particular moment
I would not return.
And it was very painful because it was so much part of my life.
(04:09):
But I knew that I could no longer support organized religion
that does not fully accept my children and my family.
I had a love of mother over the situation that they're in, that's what it sounds like.
When he came out, since you were in the church environment, I assume as a family.
(04:35):
Was there interaction there that was supportive of him or what kind of environment
would that have been for him and then ultimately for you and the family?
Well, he is, he's there in his 30s.
Then it was mostly hush, hush.
Don't really talk about it.
(04:56):
But for my other family members, it was more accepting.
Was it later in life for them or for your way?
Yes, and it was more recent.
Did you see the resources for the individual or the family at that time?
I saw out resources online through social media.
(05:21):
There was a particular group called the Mama Dragons, which I joined and have been with for many years.
And just to be a part of it and to read stories and engage with other women that were going through the same thing.
Back then it was very specific, letter day, saint, women and some men as well.
(05:47):
But since then, it has expanded to include any religion or any person that wants to be part of the group.
It's called Mama Dragons still.
They most recently went private.
They have a pretty strong vetting system now.
(06:08):
You are connected through email.
Your son comes out, you go through that process with him.
And then you said your daughter as well.
Did you do act or were you differently when she came out based on the experience you had with him?
I did.
I acted differently.
(06:31):
She was in therapy for anxiety.
And she invited me to come to the session.
And I had no clue.
I thought, under worst, I thought she was going to tell me she wanted to live with her dad.
But she came out and I said, "Oh, I said thank God."
(06:52):
I thought you were going to want to live with your dad.
Everything was just very, very positive.
That time around.
What do you credit yourself for acting differently in that way as compared to kind of...
You didn't say shock in disbelief, but I guess kind of being surprised.
(07:14):
I was surprised.
But I had grown so much because of my son.
Because he is considerably older.
So I've had time to really embrace how I felt about it.
And they're the same person.
(07:37):
They don't change.
You just know more about them.
That's why people talk about coming out.
There's a phrase letting in.
What I'm like Dr. Lauren Orlson is right.
I heard it for the first time about letting people into your life.
You're not coming out to them.
That person is so special to you.
You let them in.
Therefore you don't have to stand on the street corner and say, "I'm yay."
Unless it serves you for whatever purpose, but you don't have to do that.
(08:01):
So when your own personal life beyond your family, and then you said your brother came out too,
were there any other things in your life that had you intersect with the LGBTQ+ community?
Or was it primarily family interaction?
Well, I was a drama teacher.
I still am actually.
A drama teacher for 26 years full time.
(08:23):
And in the theater community, there tends to be a little bit more of an acceptance of the LGBTQ community.
They're more open in the theatrical world.
And we're more accepting, I think, because we are deeply feeling people.
And when it comes to acting and creativity,
(08:45):
we go to parts of ourselves that not everybody normally goes to.
So I really like that aspect of the theater world.
Many students come out to me, which was in Texas a little bit scary.
Because the protocol is to make sure that the parents are included.
(09:12):
But of course, we're not going to do that.
We're not going to tell a parent that because that story is for the child or the student to tell their parents, not us.
So you're a teacher, a parent, intersection with the community, out live for sure based on what I know of you.
(09:34):
And then you go off and write the study. What came out of the reason to write the study and what did you intend to do in that?
Well, my brother, when he came out, was married to my sister-in-law who I adore dearly and I still communicate with her.
When my brother came out to me on the phone, I told him, "Thank you so much for telling me."
(09:57):
So that was my third coming out experience.
And I was in an interpersonal conflict class studying for my master's degree.
And we were allowed to pick our topic.
And they encouraged us to pick a topic that we felt passionate about.
(10:20):
So after a long consideration, I thought, you know, how a communication studies is a little bit different than communications.
Communication studies focuses on the interpersonal exchange of conflict resolution or how you behave in a romantic relationship.
So I was very interested in how my brother and his wife were able to transition through that experience with their two daughters.
(10:51):
In an amicable way, mostly, you know, there's still conflict.
But so after the interviews that I had conducted, I noticed some major findings about the men that were able to have amicable separations and divorces versus those that didn't.
(11:19):
And religion was one of the main components. People that were not religious were able to communicate better, which I thought was very interesting.
Yes, it is.
And I think I'm going to continue my research in that area.
I did a lot of clients and anecdotal stories were religion, intersex, and is the challenge.
(11:44):
Is it a person's individual struggle or when they come out to somebody else, how they think they're going to react because of that individual's religious perspective?
Is that what you found or?
It ranged from men who were forced, not forced, but it to save the marriage went into conversion therapy with a Christian based counselor.
(12:13):
And all the way to peer acceptance from the beginning, from their wives.
Some came home to locked doors with the locks had been changed.
So just it was all 16 men.
(12:34):
It ranged from so many different perspectives.
But like I said, after doing sets called constant comparative analysis, after reading and rereading the interview transcripts over and over again, I started to find the connections, which is, which is the research.
(12:56):
Those that were able to communicate better were not actively religious.
It was very interesting.
Yes. How did they communicate when you said they communicate?
They went through a process.
They analyzed options.
(13:19):
Do we want to stay married?
Do we want an open relationship?
They really went through what would be best for the kids?
They were the best for us.
And even one of the men, they decided to rent an apartment right near where they were living.
(13:42):
So their kids would never left the house and they would take turns going in and out of the apartment one week.
It would be the husband and the other week would be the wife.
But the kids were the main focus.
And so I was so impressed with how they were able to come to an understanding of what was the most important things in their lives.
(14:09):
And how could they maintain being a family?
That was so important.
And then on the opposite end, families have been absolutely destroyed and the kids have not even spoken to the parent that came out.
I know of one situation where he lost everything left with two karyons and backpack and a cup of coffee.
(14:36):
I really like the example that you gave where they got an apartment. I thought you were going to say for the guy to move into but be close to home instead of the spouse's former spouses rotated through the apartment.
Always keep the kids in the house so they were the focus of the living environment.
They had to shift back and forth between mom and dad.
(14:59):
I just love that.
And so many people can actually say I'm strong enough to do that because my kids matter the most.
Did they have any, the people you interviewed think they're all men, if I recall?
Did they have any common threads on the spouses that were very open and supportive that came through other than the not very religious?
(15:26):
If I remember correctly, two of them, the spouse, the woman, were highly educated and I know for one, I know one for sure, was trained as a therapist.
That's the only common thread I can think of right now.
(15:50):
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(16:15):
More information about my personal life coaching services or to arrange a complimentary consultation visit davidcottoncoaching.com
You're listening to OutLate with David.
Were there any surprises that came up during this study of these participants?
(16:38):
Or just your research that you use to correlate the information as well?
I expected mental health issues, I expected suicide ideation, but I didn't expect it from every single one of them.
And it was heartbreaking and there were a couple of times that I, after the interview, broke down and cried for a while because it was just so sad.
(17:11):
It seemed unnecessary and it seemed like some of the pain could have been avoided.
Not sure how. That's kind of what my research is. How do we improve that for our kids that are coming out now?
(17:32):
I can speak from personal experience and talking to others as well is that for me it was all locked inside my head. I didn't know what to do with it.
And feel like there's no hope.
Well, I wasn't ever get to the point to kill myself directly. I did have wishful thoughts of either not to wake up or have the semi hit me on the way to work and just be done with it.
(17:55):
But somebody else make the decision. There was several interviews. Several interviews that said the same thing that you just mentioned that hoped for some kind of accident.
Some kind of way out without having to do it themselves.
I feel one thing fascinating too. It took me to snow like mirror mirror on the wall that the mirror came to be a part of the process.
(18:22):
Explain what you found out about the mirror. Yes. I think there were four out of 16 that actually verbally said I had to look in the mirror and say, you're gay.
I'm a gay man had to look at themselves and say it, which I thought was really interesting.
(18:46):
That they had to come to the conclusion of self acceptance before they were able to move on.
Did that help them be more communicative with their spouse and family members after that's at that point?
Not necessarily. I think I just had to own it at least at some level.
(19:10):
I think it was more of a validation is this is who I am. And this is how I'm going to be from now on.
That's what I got. That's what I gained from it.
That's interesting because the feedback from other things I've read and observed is that the straight spouse, the straight partner,
(19:33):
has the opposite feeling at the time that the person is being very selfish and not caring and not loving by only focusing on themself and coming out and sharing their secret, which is tormenting them almost to the point of suicide or desperation.
And that is why they don't come out sooner because they are afraid of risking hurting others, risking their family, risking losing touch with their children.
(20:06):
What's the next step for your study?
I am going to look into religion and because there were so many 13 out of 16, well identified a specific religion and how those messages that are received in the walls of our churches and congregations, how those affect our young people who are gay or struggling to figure themselves out their identity out.
(20:37):
How can we prevent the mental health crisis of those young people before they get involved in a heterosexual marriage and continue on for years and years and years of self-loving is how my brother described it to us for years.
(21:02):
So what advice would you have for that straight partner or straight family member that has someone come out to them or if they have maybe even concerns or but someone might be LGBT plus several of the spouses actually outed their husbands, which was very hurtful because according to the research I've discovered.
(21:31):
The coming out process is so significant that it's really not someone else's story to share it's it's the person themselves and they feel robbed of that experience if someone outs them.
So my advice would be to feel honored that they would share it with you.
(21:58):
Because it's such a difficult thing to share, to create a safe space where any kind of communication can take place, especially if you're a parent or in a romantic relationship where you're supposed to be trusty and you're you have a good friendship.
(22:23):
If that exists, then you need to allow yourself the opportunity to listen and accept.
So what advice would you have for the individual who is coming out or letting others into their life based on what you learn from engaging with these study participants.
Don't be afraid. I don't want to cry. My daughter was so afraid to tell me.
(22:54):
And I would feel differently about her.
So probably lose connection.
That was my fear lose connection with family friends and people they don't even know.
How will my co-workers think of me now? How will this, you know, how does it all work out?
(23:20):
People can be amazing.
And I think that's a good example of one of the interviews where the people that they thought would accept them didn't.
And the people that they thought would not accept them accepted them. And people are surprising in that way sometimes.
(23:42):
And tell folks, be patient too. If you have one of those situations where someone's not accepting and supportive and you want to have a relationship with them, honor them by respecting whatever boundaries they put up.
You don't have to agree with them, honor them and then over time through your behavior they might come back and re-engage with you after they have a time to think and process it.
(24:05):
Some of the research I discovered was that a parent needs about three to five years to fully accept.
I don't know if that's true. I didn't need that much time.
And then how long it takes for someone to figure out their identity can be years and years and years longer than that to accept.
(24:33):
It's too accept to because they may know their identity but have not accepted it.
Or actually maybe looked in the mirror and had that conversation with themself.
Right. But in the end, you know, what is more important?
Love and your relationships with your family and the people that you love.
(24:56):
And yourself.
And yes, yes. And yourself because you can't help others if you're not all right yourself.
The older your cup has to be over half full to pour into somebody else's.
Right.
So what did we not talk about today that you anything else you want to highlight that we missed?
I don't know why I want to say this but I'll say it anyway.
(25:18):
If you discover yourself, if you're watching this and you you are an individual who is struggling to come out or is in a relationship that you don't want to be in.
That there is a way to sift through some of these problems in a proactive way.
(25:43):
I was really impressed with one of one of the men that I interviewed. He actually came up with a plan of how he was going to do these things and talk to who at what point and that sort of thing.
My brother, his therapist suggested he tell his siblings first one at a time.
(26:06):
So he could have that support first before going to the parents. So there there's a lot of material out there that you can search for that will help you.
And Facebook groups and other groups.
Your podcast and the things that you have on your website.
(26:32):
That it's okay to search and study and get prepared for what will happen.
I like that.
Yeah, on the outlet with David.com website under the resource page. There's some.
There's a really good guide to coming out to a straight partner spouse.
We're going to play to a family that highlights things such as what safe space is the person who's straight or coming out to think about them and what you tell them.
(26:59):
You don't want to pull them into the closet with you. But let them know it's okay. This is a lot to process. It's okay to talk to your friend family, whomever.
You know, give them license to process that as well. The person coming out at that time.
The other one may not have had the same amount of time more likely has not to figure that out. So to your point.
(27:20):
It doesn't have to be this huge tragedy.
It's really not. It's actually a joyful activity because the person's accepting themselves and letting you into their life because they care about you.
To me, the foundational thought.
And if someone is feeling depressed, suicidal, 988 on your phone is the national hotline just dial 988.
(27:47):
And that gets you to someone that you can talk to if you get to that point.
So you're not alone. Well, thank you for spending this time today. And thank you for being such a supportive ally and your passion and your desire to understand this better.
To then put together something to share for others. I really, really appreciate that. And I'm sure others will too wish you luck on getting published.
(28:10):
Thank you.
And looking forward to your next level when you get into religion, that fascinates me because as you pointed out, religion is a major factor in some people what keeps them from moving forward in fear and concern about their future and that of her family and loved ones.
So thank you again for your time today.
I will say real quick. There are religious religions that are becoming very inclusive.
(28:37):
So it's not all.
All bad. They are changing. So thank you. Thanks again.
Okay. Bye bye.
Goodbye.
[Music]
(29:11):
To hear more episodes, visit outlaidwithdavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching services, go to DavidCottenCoaching.com.
[Music]
[Music]
(00:12):
You're listening to Out Late with David, true stories of coming out later in life.
And now, here's your host, David Cun.
Raised as a Letter Day Saint, and even though straight herself,
today's guest found her life becoming deeply intertwined with the LGBTQ+ community.
(00:33):
For sure, a strong community ally, she's immersed herself into research about the house
and wise of the coming out process, and hopefully, helping to make it more smooth for the person
and their friends and family.
Joining us today from Houston, Texas, Kami Hunley- Jackson.
[Music]
(00:59):
Hi, Kami, and thank you for being here today.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, glad you're here today, and thanks for taking the time.
You've written a research study about coming out later in life.
It's called Understanding the Journey, Why Some Gay Individuals Suppressed Or Identity.
But before we talk about that,
I want to know, why is it important that this topic for you?
(01:21):
I'd enjoy hearing about your own personal story of why you have the interest.
Well, two of my children are gay, and also my brother.
And they're out openly, so it's okay to say that.
I found myself immersed in religion,
(01:43):
and had a very difficult time with my son coming out in the beginning.
And I feel quite embarrassed about it.
But as I continued to process and accept and slowly become an ally,
I realized that I needed to search my own heart
(02:09):
and figure out what this really means to me.
And then my daughter and then my brother.
So I've had three very significant coming out experiences
of people that I love dearly.
So having all three of those has pushed me in a direction
I never thought I'd be in, which was to understand
(02:34):
and appreciate the point of view of an LGBTQ person and their journey of coming out.
Whether it be when they're a teen or whether they're an older person
who's already been in a marriage, heterosexual marriage.
With your son, you said you had some difficulty with that yourself.
(02:56):
How did that feel as a mom?
Well, it felt awful.
You feel torn between what you've been raised to believe
versus how you truly feel about your child.
So it becomes a juxtaposition of feelings.
(03:20):
And in the end, after you process, which sometimes takes years,
it almost feels like you have to make a decision.
Do you continue down the path of being religious or do you choose your child?
For me, that is what it came down to.
(03:41):
What was the decision that you actually made when you get to that point?
What's the kind of the act or something that occurred you on?
I knew, I was at church one Sunday, and I knew at that particular moment
I would not return.
And it was very painful because it was so much part of my life.
(04:09):
But I knew that I could no longer support organized religion
that does not fully accept my children and my family.
I had a love of mother over the situation that they're in, that's what it sounds like.
When he came out, since you were in the church environment, I assume as a family.
(04:35):
Was there interaction there that was supportive of him or what kind of environment
would that have been for him and then ultimately for you and the family?
Well, he is, he's there in his 30s.
Then it was mostly hush, hush.
Don't really talk about it.
(04:56):
But for my other family members, it was more accepting.
Was it later in life for them or for your way?
Yes, and it was more recent.
Did you see the resources for the individual or the family at that time?
I saw out resources online through social media.
(05:21):
There was a particular group called the Mama Dragons, which I joined and have been with for many years.
And just to be a part of it and to read stories and engage with other women that were going through the same thing.
Back then it was very specific, letter day, saint, women and some men as well.
(05:47):
But since then, it has expanded to include any religion or any person that wants to be part of the group.
It's called Mama Dragons still.
They most recently went private.
They have a pretty strong vetting system now.
(06:08):
You are connected through email.
Your son comes out, you go through that process with him.
And then you said your daughter as well.
Did you do act or were you differently when she came out based on the experience you had with him?
I did.
I acted differently.
(06:31):
She was in therapy for anxiety.
And she invited me to come to the session.
And I had no clue.
I thought, under worst, I thought she was going to tell me she wanted to live with her dad.
But she came out and I said, "Oh, I said thank God."
(06:52):
I thought you were going to want to live with your dad.
Everything was just very, very positive.
That time around.
What do you credit yourself for acting differently in that way as compared to kind of...
You didn't say shock in disbelief, but I guess kind of being surprised.
(07:14):
I was surprised.
But I had grown so much because of my son.
Because he is considerably older.
So I've had time to really embrace how I felt about it.
And they're the same person.
(07:37):
They don't change.
You just know more about them.
That's why people talk about coming out.
There's a phrase letting in.
What I'm like Dr. Lauren Orlson is right.
I heard it for the first time about letting people into your life.
You're not coming out to them.
That person is so special to you.
You let them in.
Therefore you don't have to stand on the street corner and say, "I'm yay."
Unless it serves you for whatever purpose, but you don't have to do that.
(08:01):
So when your own personal life beyond your family, and then you said your brother came out too,
were there any other things in your life that had you intersect with the LGBTQ+ community?
Or was it primarily family interaction?
Well, I was a drama teacher.
I still am actually.
A drama teacher for 26 years full time.
(08:23):
And in the theater community, there tends to be a little bit more of an acceptance of the LGBTQ community.
They're more open in the theatrical world.
And we're more accepting, I think, because we are deeply feeling people.
And when it comes to acting and creativity,
(08:45):
we go to parts of ourselves that not everybody normally goes to.
So I really like that aspect of the theater world.
Many students come out to me, which was in Texas a little bit scary.
Because the protocol is to make sure that the parents are included.
(09:12):
But of course, we're not going to do that.
We're not going to tell a parent that because that story is for the child or the student to tell their parents, not us.
So you're a teacher, a parent, intersection with the community, out live for sure based on what I know of you.
(09:34):
And then you go off and write the study. What came out of the reason to write the study and what did you intend to do in that?
Well, my brother, when he came out, was married to my sister-in-law who I adore dearly and I still communicate with her.
When my brother came out to me on the phone, I told him, "Thank you so much for telling me."
(09:57):
So that was my third coming out experience.
And I was in an interpersonal conflict class studying for my master's degree.
And we were allowed to pick our topic.
And they encouraged us to pick a topic that we felt passionate about.
(10:20):
So after a long consideration, I thought, you know, how a communication studies is a little bit different than communications.
Communication studies focuses on the interpersonal exchange of conflict resolution or how you behave in a romantic relationship.
So I was very interested in how my brother and his wife were able to transition through that experience with their two daughters.
(10:51):
In an amicable way, mostly, you know, there's still conflict.
But so after the interviews that I had conducted, I noticed some major findings about the men that were able to have amicable separations and divorces versus those that didn't.
(11:19):
And religion was one of the main components. People that were not religious were able to communicate better, which I thought was very interesting.
Yes, it is.
And I think I'm going to continue my research in that area.
I did a lot of clients and anecdotal stories were religion, intersex, and is the challenge.
(11:44):
Is it a person's individual struggle or when they come out to somebody else, how they think they're going to react because of that individual's religious perspective?
Is that what you found or?
It ranged from men who were forced, not forced, but it to save the marriage went into conversion therapy with a Christian based counselor.
(12:13):
And all the way to peer acceptance from the beginning, from their wives.
Some came home to locked doors with the locks had been changed.
So just it was all 16 men.
(12:34):
It ranged from so many different perspectives.
But like I said, after doing sets called constant comparative analysis, after reading and rereading the interview transcripts over and over again, I started to find the connections, which is, which is the research.
(12:56):
Those that were able to communicate better were not actively religious.
It was very interesting.
Yes. How did they communicate when you said they communicate?
They went through a process.
They analyzed options.
(13:19):
Do we want to stay married?
Do we want an open relationship?
They really went through what would be best for the kids?
They were the best for us.
And even one of the men, they decided to rent an apartment right near where they were living.
(13:42):
So their kids would never left the house and they would take turns going in and out of the apartment one week.
It would be the husband and the other week would be the wife.
But the kids were the main focus.
And so I was so impressed with how they were able to come to an understanding of what was the most important things in their lives.
(14:09):
And how could they maintain being a family?
That was so important.
And then on the opposite end, families have been absolutely destroyed and the kids have not even spoken to the parent that came out.
I know of one situation where he lost everything left with two karyons and backpack and a cup of coffee.
(14:36):
I really like the example that you gave where they got an apartment. I thought you were going to say for the guy to move into but be close to home instead of the spouse's former spouses rotated through the apartment.
Always keep the kids in the house so they were the focus of the living environment.
They had to shift back and forth between mom and dad.
(14:59):
I just love that.
And so many people can actually say I'm strong enough to do that because my kids matter the most.
Did they have any, the people you interviewed think they're all men, if I recall?
Did they have any common threads on the spouses that were very open and supportive that came through other than the not very religious?
(15:26):
If I remember correctly, two of them, the spouse, the woman, were highly educated and I know for one, I know one for sure, was trained as a therapist.
That's the only common thread I can think of right now.
(15:50):
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(16:15):
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You're listening to OutLate with David.
Were there any surprises that came up during this study of these participants?
(16:38):
Or just your research that you use to correlate the information as well?
I expected mental health issues, I expected suicide ideation, but I didn't expect it from every single one of them.
And it was heartbreaking and there were a couple of times that I, after the interview, broke down and cried for a while because it was just so sad.
(17:11):
It seemed unnecessary and it seemed like some of the pain could have been avoided.
Not sure how. That's kind of what my research is. How do we improve that for our kids that are coming out now?
(17:32):
I can speak from personal experience and talking to others as well is that for me it was all locked inside my head. I didn't know what to do with it.
And feel like there's no hope.
Well, I wasn't ever get to the point to kill myself directly. I did have wishful thoughts of either not to wake up or have the semi hit me on the way to work and just be done with it.
(17:55):
But somebody else make the decision. There was several interviews. Several interviews that said the same thing that you just mentioned that hoped for some kind of accident.
Some kind of way out without having to do it themselves.
I feel one thing fascinating too. It took me to snow like mirror mirror on the wall that the mirror came to be a part of the process.
(18:22):
Explain what you found out about the mirror. Yes. I think there were four out of 16 that actually verbally said I had to look in the mirror and say, you're gay.
I'm a gay man had to look at themselves and say it, which I thought was really interesting.
(18:46):
That they had to come to the conclusion of self acceptance before they were able to move on.
Did that help them be more communicative with their spouse and family members after that's at that point?
Not necessarily. I think I just had to own it at least at some level.
(19:10):
I think it was more of a validation is this is who I am. And this is how I'm going to be from now on.
That's what I got. That's what I gained from it.
That's interesting because the feedback from other things I've read and observed is that the straight spouse, the straight partner,
(19:33):
has the opposite feeling at the time that the person is being very selfish and not caring and not loving by only focusing on themself and coming out and sharing their secret, which is tormenting them almost to the point of suicide or desperation.
And that is why they don't come out sooner because they are afraid of risking hurting others, risking their family, risking losing touch with their children.
(20:06):
What's the next step for your study?
I am going to look into religion and because there were so many 13 out of 16, well identified a specific religion and how those messages that are received in the walls of our churches and congregations, how those affect our young people who are gay or struggling to figure themselves out their identity out.
(20:37):
How can we prevent the mental health crisis of those young people before they get involved in a heterosexual marriage and continue on for years and years and years of self-loving is how my brother described it to us for years.
(21:02):
So what advice would you have for that straight partner or straight family member that has someone come out to them or if they have maybe even concerns or but someone might be LGBT plus several of the spouses actually outed their husbands, which was very hurtful because according to the research I've discovered.
(21:31):
The coming out process is so significant that it's really not someone else's story to share it's it's the person themselves and they feel robbed of that experience if someone outs them.
So my advice would be to feel honored that they would share it with you.
(21:58):
Because it's such a difficult thing to share, to create a safe space where any kind of communication can take place, especially if you're a parent or in a romantic relationship where you're supposed to be trusty and you're you have a good friendship.
(22:23):
If that exists, then you need to allow yourself the opportunity to listen and accept.
So what advice would you have for the individual who is coming out or letting others into their life based on what you learn from engaging with these study participants.
Don't be afraid. I don't want to cry. My daughter was so afraid to tell me.
(22:54):
And I would feel differently about her.
So probably lose connection.
That was my fear lose connection with family friends and people they don't even know.
How will my co-workers think of me now? How will this, you know, how does it all work out?
(23:20):
People can be amazing.
And I think that's a good example of one of the interviews where the people that they thought would accept them didn't.
And the people that they thought would not accept them accepted them. And people are surprising in that way sometimes.
(23:42):
And tell folks, be patient too. If you have one of those situations where someone's not accepting and supportive and you want to have a relationship with them, honor them by respecting whatever boundaries they put up.
You don't have to agree with them, honor them and then over time through your behavior they might come back and re-engage with you after they have a time to think and process it.
(24:05):
Some of the research I discovered was that a parent needs about three to five years to fully accept.
I don't know if that's true. I didn't need that much time.
And then how long it takes for someone to figure out their identity can be years and years and years longer than that to accept.
(24:33):
It's too accept to because they may know their identity but have not accepted it.
Or actually maybe looked in the mirror and had that conversation with themself.
Right. But in the end, you know, what is more important?
Love and your relationships with your family and the people that you love.
(24:56):
And yourself.
And yes, yes. And yourself because you can't help others if you're not all right yourself.
The older your cup has to be over half full to pour into somebody else's.
Right.
So what did we not talk about today that you anything else you want to highlight that we missed?
I don't know why I want to say this but I'll say it anyway.
(25:18):
If you discover yourself, if you're watching this and you you are an individual who is struggling to come out or is in a relationship that you don't want to be in.
That there is a way to sift through some of these problems in a proactive way.
(25:43):
I was really impressed with one of one of the men that I interviewed. He actually came up with a plan of how he was going to do these things and talk to who at what point and that sort of thing.
My brother, his therapist suggested he tell his siblings first one at a time.
(26:06):
So he could have that support first before going to the parents. So there there's a lot of material out there that you can search for that will help you.
And Facebook groups and other groups.
Your podcast and the things that you have on your website.
(26:32):
That it's okay to search and study and get prepared for what will happen.
I like that.
Yeah, on the outlet with David.com website under the resource page. There's some.
There's a really good guide to coming out to a straight partner spouse.
We're going to play to a family that highlights things such as what safe space is the person who's straight or coming out to think about them and what you tell them.
(26:59):
You don't want to pull them into the closet with you. But let them know it's okay. This is a lot to process. It's okay to talk to your friend family, whomever.
You know, give them license to process that as well. The person coming out at that time.
The other one may not have had the same amount of time more likely has not to figure that out. So to your point.
(27:20):
It doesn't have to be this huge tragedy.
It's really not. It's actually a joyful activity because the person's accepting themselves and letting you into their life because they care about you.
To me, the foundational thought.
And if someone is feeling depressed, suicidal, 988 on your phone is the national hotline just dial 988.
(27:47):
And that gets you to someone that you can talk to if you get to that point.
So you're not alone. Well, thank you for spending this time today. And thank you for being such a supportive ally and your passion and your desire to understand this better.
To then put together something to share for others. I really, really appreciate that. And I'm sure others will too wish you luck on getting published.
(28:10):
Thank you.
And looking forward to your next level when you get into religion, that fascinates me because as you pointed out, religion is a major factor in some people what keeps them from moving forward in fear and concern about their future and that of her family and loved ones.
So thank you again for your time today.
I will say real quick. There are religious religions that are becoming very inclusive.
(28:37):
So it's not all.
All bad. They are changing. So thank you. Thanks again.
Okay. Bye bye.
Goodbye.
[Music]
(29:11):
To hear more episodes, visit outlaidwithdavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching services, go to DavidCottenCoaching.com.
[Music]
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