Kristin Kalbli - The Impact of Coming Out on Straight Spouses - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Watch the video version of this podcast at OutlateWithDavid.com

(00:04):
Hi, I'm David Cotton.
I'm a father, a brother, a son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive in the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.

(00:25):
At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world.
I'm gay.
Join me, as I talk with others,
who've made this coming out journey late in life
to become who they really are.
You're listening to OutlateWithDavid.
Today's coming out story is told from the perspective of the straight spouse.

(00:49):
My guest today, an LGBT ally herself,
was so badly impacted by her husband's coming out process.
She's made it her mission to help straight spouses cope.
She even created an online guide to help married gay men and women,
discover what to do, and what not to do,
when coming out later in life.
My guest today is producer and host of the Voices podcast,

(01:13):
Kristen Cowdly.
Kristin, welcome.
Thanks for having me. I'm delighted to be here,
and I love that we're having this conversation.
I've been looking forward to talking to you about your work and our path,
previously known as the Straight Spouses Network,
and as a man that came out later in life after being married,
I reflect back on my own coming out and how it impacted my spouse,

(01:36):
and I often think, what could I have done differently?
What happened to you in your relationship,
where you learned your spouse was not straight?
I met my ex-husband in high school.
We did high school theater together,
and we started dating when I was a freshman in college,
and we also did theater in college together.

(01:59):
There were some signs looking back,
but as a 17-year-old, and then a 19-year-old,
and then a 23-year-old, I didn't have the frame of reference
with a context to decode those signs or to interpret what they meant.
I can give you a little example.
There were no signs that you saw that you didn't decode.

(02:21):
Yeah, so one of them was, I remember being maybe 19 years old,
we were in college, I remember sitting in the back of his Maroon Olds'
Mobile or the front rather,
and he told me his roommate had come out to him in college,
and that when that happened, he'd gone into the bathroom and vomited.
And this struck me as really strange because we were in theater.

(02:42):
Yes, it was a Catholic high school where we met,
but the choir director was in an open lesbian relationship
with the theater director,
and so many of our friends were gay,
and they were all coming out junior and senior year.
And so I thought this was really strange,
and I asked him, why did you vomit?
Just because you're, I mean, I was like, just because your roommate's gay.

(03:03):
So what? And he said I was afraid that might mean that I was gay,
which this wasn't computing for me.
And so I asked him, I said, well, are you gay?
And he said, no, I figured out that's not what I want.
And I wanted one.
Yeah, at 19, I just didn't have the context to ask the follow-up question,

(03:25):
and say, hey, okay, well, what does that mean?
I just went, my boyfriend just told me he's not gay, he's not gay.
And some other clues, you know, I laugh at it now,
but again, I didn't have the context.
One clue was we had a herbrits coffee tablebook with naked male nudes.
We had a Robert Mabel Thorpe coffee tablebook alongside Dale Chouhouli

(03:48):
and Andy Goldsworthy, and the way I added that up was just that he was so much more sophisticated about art and culture than I was.
And he just appreciated art better than I knew how to.
And so I kind of told myself some stories because I just didn't,
I also didn't want to stereotype him, so I didn't want to say my husband likes musicals and barbers' dry sand.

(04:12):
And I didn't want to put him in a man box.
I was trying to be enlightened about these kinds of things.
And so looking, you know, Priscilla Queen of the Desert was one of his favorite movies.
I mean, you know, anti-mame. I mean, now it's all like right there.

(04:34):
And sometimes I like that.
A lot of that retrospective look back, self-included, you know, denial denial denial denial and go.
Yeah.
Why did I deny that?
Right. And it wasn't until I was after we were divorced.
So we married, I was young 23, hadn't dated anybody else beside him,

(04:55):
somewhat sheltered in that what I liked about him was that he wasn't pressuring me into sex sooner than I was ready.
And but once we did have sex, which was before we were married, then it was really,
it was not a great sex life.
And but I had nothing to compare it to.

(05:16):
So I was kind of scratching my head trying to figure out what things should be like,
trying to figure out what normal was, then saying,
well, we have our own normal.
I told myself again a lot of stories, but I didn't have a frame of reference for what we should be doing.
I mean, I, you know, I just kept telling myself everything else is so great.
We have some dogs we walk every day together after work.

(05:39):
And we have a garden that we love.
And we've been redoing our 100 year old house together in Atlanta.
So we had all these things that felt so great and I told myself what sex.
And I realized after a while that sex was really important to me.
And I met somebody that I was an actor in Atlanta and I met another actor who was co-starring in a play with me.

(06:02):
And all of this and I felt this bodily attraction that was just a tour de force of nature that I never felt before.
And I went home and I, well, before that happened, I told my husband that we're platonic, like, resemblings.
And I asked him, like, what's going on?

(06:25):
So I could never really get an answer.
And after I met this other actor and I felt like, I'm in trouble.
We had my husband and I had one last night of intimacy.
I basically rolled over in bed and I put my hand on his chest and I got really cheeky and I said,
tell me what you fantasize about.
And he got stone cold and said, don't ask me that.

(06:49):
And I shot up and bad and I said, are you gay?
It just came out of my mouth.
And he said, why?
And I said, if you're gay, you owe it to me to let me out of this marriage.
And then he said, I'm not gay.
So that didn't resolve anything for me.
The next day I separated from him, told him I was going to date other people and all that that entails.

(07:14):
One out and had a two month relationship with this sex on a stick bad boy actor.
Came back into the relationship for marriage counseling and told him two months later I'd been with somebody.
During that time we had a four month period of marriage counseling where we were trying to figure out if we could save the marriage.
But he wanted the marriage to stay together.

(07:35):
All of the sudden he became very adventurous and all of the sudden I didn't want him to touch me.
I finally realized I wanted a divorce and that this marriage has been dead.
So we divorced.
And for seven years I kind of moved on but I still was like, what was that?

(08:00):
And I said, I'm never doing that again but I didn't know what that was.
I spent seven years in a lot of therapy and didn't really date.
I had some sex to try to figure out my own body and my own because it turns out he remarried and he married a woman.
And I went, okay I guess he's really not gay.

(08:22):
I was like, okay I guess I was wrong.
One day in November, in 2015, seven years after my divorce, eight years after my divorce, I get a message on Facebook from his second wife.
And she says, she's like, you don't know me but I'm divorcing your husband, your ex-husband, our ex-husband.

(08:45):
And would you be willing to talk to me because I'm struggling to figure out how I didn't know things.
I'm scratching my head and I'm going, what is this? She doesn't know. And then she sends one more message and he said, Christen, he's gay.
More of my interview with Christen in just a moment, but first I'd like to recommend a book I found helpful on my coming out of Journey.

(09:09):
I thought it was important to attempt to understand the perspective of the straight spouse and I turned to Amity Pierce-Buchston's book, The Other Side of the Closet, the coming out crisis for straight spouses and families.
Dr. Buchston also founded the Straight Spouses Network, which is now known as Our Path.
While the author may have spoken of truth, I found uncomfortable. I found her inside helpful and attempt to understand how a straight spouse might feel when their spouse or partner comes out as LGBTQ+.

(09:39):
Again, the book is The Other Side of the Closet. For more books and online resources about coming out late in life, visit OutLateWithDavid.com.
You're listening to OutLate With David.
And all of the sudden, like 20 or two decades in my life just made sense. And while on one hand I had the clarity that now made sense of everything, on the other hand, I was tipped back into a place of rage.

(10:14):
Because other conversations came flooding back that we'd had over the years that told me that he knew.
And as much as I try not to speculate too much about what was happening over there, I do think he didn't want to be gay and that accepting himself or who he was in that regard was very painful and difficult.

(10:39):
And I have empathy for that for sure. And also there's another life in here that got drug-along.
And I think I've always said this that the hardest thing that took me the longest to forgive was not that he was gay, not that he was in the closet, but that he didn't let me let me go.

(11:03):
So that I could find a loving relationship with a man who was interested in me, loved me, desired me, wanted to have a robust sexual relationship with me because that was part of what was really important to me was to have a robust intimate relationship with my partner.
And what I've been trying to create with my husband the entire time that we were together.
I don't believe he ever was unfaithful to me in our marriage with her, he did come out to her. They divorced in 2015, 2016 around and there. So about eight years after I got divorced, they divorced.

(11:36):
It really makes it difficult going into new relationships to figure out up from down who is telling me the honest truth of who they are, who is telling me can I trust them and can I trust myself.
Which is something I had to rebuild from the ground up how to trust myself again and how to learn to trust someone else.
I could even see when there's none in fidelity that same thoughts can happen to about trust because there's the are they truly being open and honest and truth with me.

(12:04):
Well, I can have empathy for his own personal lying to himself. I've heard, you know, I've talked to many gay husbands at this point and I hear lots of things like I was lying to myself.
And I get that I've lied to myself about plenty of things not like this, but plenty of others I lied to myself that our marriage was great.
I told myself that we had a really good marriage because we seemingly had a good friendship.

(12:26):
So I understand about lying to yourself about something and not wanting something to be true and when you can't afford for something to be true.
Because of what might be lost in that. But I also think there's an aspect of this where I think straight spouses, not just myself, but in general can feel like agency was denied me and making my own choice about how I spent those years of my life and who I spent them with.

(12:54):
I know in my situation when I reflect back in time now I can say, oh yes David, I know where my my mental thoughts were. But I truly fell in love with my wife.
You know, saw it as a beautiful marriage. You know, two kids it was all just felt right and natural.
But yeah, there were things in my head that go back to when I was a little kid that I never thought and identified as being gay, whether that was just deep denial of what was deep denial of the situation of where I grew up, the time, the culture, the laws, all those things.

(13:30):
And it didn't feel like something I should share. It's just like, oh, that's just part of who I am. But I like what I have here in this relationship. It's what I'd always dreamed of, you know, family, a wife, you know, loving environment.
And it had all that feeling. And then it got to the point when I did realize who I am and that I did share.

(13:54):
When I kind of codified my mind when I had, you know, before stood in a mirror on a business trip and look in the hotel and said, you know, David caught near a gay man. That was the first time I'd really embraced it and acknowledged it.
So I don't know whether that was a lie. Yeah, there's some information there. But you know, how do you it's it's the challenge of what do you share? How do you share?

(14:17):
That's where I get stuck in that that loop. Yeah, what did you when you finally, if I may ask what what finally made you decide that you have to tell your wife?
It was it was the moment when you you basically said to yourself, it was immediate up after that or relative. It was actually about a month after that is when I had that and thought is this really the case?

(14:43):
Because when I say this out loud, I know the impact it's going to have. It's going to hurt her. It's going to destroy the families. I know it.
It's going to disrupt the future. I don't know whether we'll survive as a couple. I went through a point to where I wanted to survive as a couple, but we didn't know how that was going to actually work out.
So we're not together now. But it was the depression and she noted it later that I had withdrawn from the relationship emotionally. And I was just depressed. I literally I used to drive like 35 minutes to work on backcountry roads and just cry, although it worked literally cry.

(15:22):
And I was absorbing podcasts and things like that reading books on my candle trying to figure out am I gay? I found myself in the bathroom at work on my phone with the browser open going and looking for am I gay test that kind of stuff looking for.
Oh gosh, maybe you are you you know you've show up on all these things here. This is what you're thinking. Yeah, I hadn't done anything with a man. I had never experienced it. But it was just where my thoughts were. And I was just paralyzed and depressed.

(15:51):
I didn't have a therapist didn't have a coach. It was just me and isolation and I was always the one who's expected to be responsible and in charge in my profession and culturally right or wrong, you know, in my mind and my family life.
And so I had felt this responsibility for you know being strong and leading and going forward and doing all that and but it was the depression and your question. I just I couldn't keep it anymore inside. I had to let it out.

(16:26):
How what how did your wife react?
Well, it was not done very well. It was late at night. I was going to go to bed choosing to stay up later.
And I just kind of blurred out and told her not thinking through what she going to do with it, who she going to talk to, what's the safe space for her.

(16:51):
You know, who can she consult with like 10 o'clock at night, you know.
The town we lived in, we didn't have a lot of close friends because we don't know where they're a year and a half or so beforehand.
You know, so it was only family, you know, by phone or something. And it was like, oh, from our call, I mean, she may recall differently. I can just remember what I remember was just like, oh, when she kind of went about her part of the rest of the evening and I went to bed.

(17:19):
It was awkward. It was tense. Not a lot of words, not a lot of questions.
And then how long afterwards did you did it take for you? Did you start couples therapy to try to save it? Or was she?

(17:40):
What made you come to the point of we need to get a divorce at least?
So I had a therapist. We tried to get on a couples therapy, which was where we lived. It was almost impossible to get a therapist. I was on a waiting list. This was in, let's see, April to June. I was on a waiting list before I could actually see a therapist.
And I found a therapist. She was trying the same thing to try to find a therapist was on a waiting list as well. We were in kind of a mental health desert where we lived in Iowa, which was difficult.

(18:09):
We never, to this day, never got a call back from the couples therapy. So I did mine. She did hers. We would talk a lot. We would look at the things to consider.
We were reasonable people. We were planners. When we got married, it just, it tickled me. She had the, she had a little portfolio with the checklist of things. And so we were used to having, you know, measured discussions and planning and had always been open about everything.

(18:40):
This is the only secret I'm aware of that was in my head, you know, again, looking back in time. Not, willfully, just not, you know, withholding it. But not being open to the world either of what these residual thoughts were in my head.
So we tried that for a while and just through conversations between ourselves. You know, I couldn't be the heterosexual husband that she desired.

(19:06):
I couldn't go back into the closet. It was, I was too depressed. I just knew I could not function in that way. And I didn't feel that'd be good for me or for us.
And so we eventually decided to separate had a collaborative divorce. So we sat together, just did all of that and filed it and then we're eventually divorced.

(19:29):
And where are you now with your relationship with her? It's not as strong as I would like. She would like some time to think and continue to process that.
We have two kids. So, you know, we each work with the children independently. So it's, I'm honoring her request to have some space and time.

(19:54):
Sometimes, as you say, a spouse doesn't want any contact. They want to go no contact. I don't want to hear from you. I need space.
I think that defaulting to respecting those wishes is super important. And I think it's tricky because on the other end of the spectrum, there are spouses who want all kinds of answers.

(20:20):
They want to ask you really tough questions. They want to ask, were you using me as a beard? Were you using me for kids? Were you using me for respectability? Were you using me or were you lying to me on our wedding day? Did you ever love me?
They have a lot of really tough questions. And, and sometimes answering those to the best of your ability really helps the straight spouse with cheap closure and healing.

(20:43):
That doesn't always happen. And so, I think it's, if you're in a position to honor what your spouse would like, whether that's answering their questions or giving them no contact for a while, I think following their lead on that is wise.

(21:04):
I totally understand the desire and, and the need even to say, hey, I have some things I want to tell you. And maybe it's, maybe it's a, something is as simple as, I know you want no contact now.
I'm really hoping we can come back together one day and talk about this and, and to know that I will answer your questions at any time you have them. I will answer all your questions as honestly and as forthrightly as I possibly can.

(21:37):
And hopefully that is at a time of your choosing. And I'm here and waiting.
I've heard that in talking to others that the focus is the long game. If you really want the relationship to improve from where it is today, patients, especially on the one that came out being patient, whether it be children, former spouse, friends, you know, all of those people that are impacted.

(22:05):
It's not just the straight spouse. It's kids involved. And the person that came out, their other relationships too may have all disappeared in an instant as well.
Right. And I think, you know, kids are going to have questions too, depending on their ages, if they're super young when this happens.
And age appropriate answers.

(22:28):
And also, I think it's really important to age appropriate honest answers for the kids.
We see kids are really pretty resilient, particularly the younger this coming out happens. But kids are pretty resilient about these sort of things as long as they get honest answers.

(22:49):
And there's secrecy, hiding all of that is toxic in a family and in a home. So the more we can all put the truth of who we are on the table and where we're at the sooner in an age appropriate way, I think kids generally do better and adapt pretty well is what is what we tend to see.
So we've touched on it. So let's just jump into it is that you with your organization, our path created this guide to coming out as lesbian gay or bisexual to your straights partner or spouse.

(23:21):
Yes.
Where did that come from? What was the genesis and then how it was it created?
The genesis was me. And I kind of took the lead in creating and writing it for our organization. But then we also had, we have a separate guide for coming out as trans.
Because there's other issues associated with that. But I kind of took the lead in writing this and then in consultation with LGBT friends who we'd have review and give us feedback.

(23:51):
And then also our board members, et cetera, give us review review it and give us feedback. And what what I really did tried to do.
First of all, I found nothing out there. You know, the human rights campaign, which is a leading LGBT advocacy organization. If you go on their website and you click on the resources tab and they have all of these guides to coming out, they have guides coming out to your doctor to your parents, to your grandparents, to your kids at work.

(24:18):
All of these different spaces and in these different contexts, but they do not have any guide at all for coming out to your spouse, which to me is just an absolute gross oversight.
And it would go a long way. I've actually reached out to the human rights campaign a couple of times to say, hey, you know, and we've written one. Here you go.
But what was so much of the pain and heartbreak that I saw reading thousands of straight spouse stories posts in our social media groups.

(24:49):
In the support groups that I drop in on occasionally is that a good portion in chunk of the pain also comes from the way the coming out happened, which I heard one LGBT spouse. I think she was a lesbian spouse say, yeah, it's just a mess no matter what.
She was like, these things happen really messy and I completely understand that. And there were also patterns, clear patterns that we saw in coming out that were just really curious.

(25:17):
And we thought if we could be proactive, it's not just about sparing the straight spouse pain. But if it goes better for the straight spouse, generally it goes better for the kids.
And then generally it also goes better for the LGBT spouse to coming out. It's like the whole family system is treated like an entire, it's a family system.

(25:39):
And when we care for the whole family system, we have better outcomes and more opportunity for reconciliation and reproach mom later on.
So that's really why we did this because we saw in these patterns of coming out so much unnecessary pain and damage and heartache that could have been avoided if people had a little bit of guidance.

(26:05):
And myself as well as our path, we want everybody to live their truest, most authentic lives. I didn't, I remember at one point in my own marriage, I was praying that my husband was gay.
It was about six months before I ever met Mr. Hot actor. It was six months before the wheels came off. And we were driving on a road trip vacation. And in my head, I remember just saying, like, please just let him be gay.

(26:33):
Because that would be the answer. And it would explain everything. And we could be friends and go shopping together. I even had the thought that I would help him out of the closet.
So there's this place in which if we contend to the whole family system and recognize that pain can be avoided by just addressing some of these simple things, it's better for the LGBT spouse to I promise.

(27:02):
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward to discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com

(27:40):
You're listening to Outlate with David.
I don't react to everything in a defensive way because that might be easy to do as the one that came out. And I realized that sometimes you have the word may and the sentence is like there may have been infidelity in my case there was not.

(28:09):
But yet some may have done that. But I found out there really wasn't a lot that I disagreed with everything. So I found it be a good guy to kind of read and then plot out how you want to actually have this conversation.
And you know, kind of map it out in your head, practice it, maybe even practice it with a therapist or a coach if you can. What would you recommend the spouse is coming out due before or is there anything they should do before they talked to their spouse?

(28:42):
Well, thank you for that question. It's one of the points in the guide and what we recommend against is coming out to many people in your wider circle of even parents, family members, unless they that is your confidant person before the spouse.

(29:03):
And the reason is is because your spouse is your primary relationship and they have a right to know material information about that relationship before anybody else.
I can point to numerous examples of spouses coming and saying, well, he told his whole family and I was the last to know and I felt like such a fool.

(29:24):
He came out to our neighbors or somebody outside of the marital relationship. And so a setting aside a counselor, a therapist, a coach, a deep close friend, and maybe that is your sibling or somebody that you have a really close bond to so that you can get support.
The next primary person, if not the first person, is that spouse because they need to know this before everybody else and they have a right to know it before everybody else.

(29:53):
And it avoids them feeling like they've been a dupe and a fool and that they're the last to know something so critical about their own marriage relationship.
It really is very painful and there's a humiliation factor. The spouses racking their brain, they're going back through memories, they're thinking about the wedding day, they're thinking about the day that their first child was your first child was born.

(30:16):
They're wondering, did I miss it on this vacation when he looked at a man going down the beach in his speedos.
They're doing all of that in their head and what you can do in that moment is assure them like, hey, it was never on you to guess.
It was never on the straight spouse to have to decode or guess. It was my responsibility to come out and tell you and disclose.

(30:40):
And when I could, right, like obviously the when I could is the is a key part, but we can't always we can't guess, but we are over here beating ourselves up for not figuring it out.
So now that the spouse is out is out and you work through the relationship with her comes a point in time to where they start to tell other people.

(31:05):
You know, either be social media or talking to friends, I know talking to others, the feedback was is, man, my spouse came out and they got all the support and adulation on Facebook for living their proud authentic life.
And I got nothing. No one called me. Nobody checked on me. Nobody did a post on my page to say, I'm sorry. So how how does how should that work or what are some recommended best practices of going forward realizing that both people are going to continue to need.

(31:34):
And I continue to need to live their lives. Right. I think this is one of the classic moments of what I'm experiencing over here as a straight spouse, maybe completely different than what you're experiencing over there as this spouse coming out.
So I'll point to an example of a conversation I had with a gay husband and we were talking about just this how straight spouses see the you're you're stunning and brave and yeah you living your authentic self pride month can be really hard for straight spouses.

(32:03):
And that's not a let me just take a side note here that's not an indication of bigotry many straight spouses of LGBT kids and our fierce allies and defenders of their kids, right.
But Pride Month can be really difficult and it can seem like their spouses are getting praised for living their true selves up one side and down the other.

(32:26):
And that's really painful because then you ask yourself the question, well, if he's living himself his true self now, then I was a part of a lie.
Your straight spouse is looking at that and going well, if his life is authentic now, what does that mean for our entire relationship.
And that's the main question they're asking. So to the extent that you're able to have empathy for that is really key.

(32:51):
Knowing what you know and what you've put together with the interactions you've had and developing this guide and your work with our path.
What advice would you give that that non straight spouse before they come out?
Yeah, recognize that what you've been grappling with for 10, 15, 20 years and resolving within yourself, they've had one minute to grapple with.

(33:14):
Whether that's you've disclosed or they've discovered something the spouse is very likely good experience that is any other in fidelity as a betrayal trauma.
And it's going to add on to their burden of healing.
So and they're going to want to know how long has this been going on? Was it one time or many? How many men? How many women?
They're going to want to know were you lying to me on our anniversary? Were you sleeping with him when we went to Cabo?

(33:41):
All of that kind of stuff and those are answers that if you can I don't recommend giving nitty gritty details, but if you can answer honestly and clearly.
And that's part of responsibility taking if you can answer those questions honestly and clearly to the extent that your state's spouse wants to know them again it will go a long way for their healing, which will be better for you in the long run too.

(34:07):
And then we have a lot of things to do with the child.
And we have a lot of things to do with the child.

(34:30):
And what you can do is go it's nothing I don't know what you're talking about. It happens a lot.
And it is profound. All at once you have just told her she is crazy.
And she is going to have a long recovery from that.
And another thing too is a lot of some mixed orientation marriages report robust and enjoyable sex lives.

(34:55):
Others like mine.
And it is not uncommon to hear gay husbands say to a wife.
The reason I don't want to have sex with you is because you got fat.
I just interviewed another woman who said that it sparked in her a lifetime of yo-yo dieting.
Because she was always trying to make her gay husband attracted to her.
And it just never worked.

(35:16):
And then she would gain the weight back and then she would try again.
So if that is, it's not like a straight husband can't say that too to a wife, you can.
In fact, it's a total deflection from the honest reason why there's no intimacy.
So if those kinds of things have happened in the marriage, deflection, denial, script flipping,
any kind of those sort of psychological manipulations to keep a closet intact,

(35:41):
that is the one where I'm like a sincere and deep accounting has to happen.
And that is for her healing and yours as well.
And for the future of her ability to get into trusting and loving relationships,
going forward, if you care about her and her ability to heal and move forward

(36:03):
and hopefully find another loving man as she deserves, then you will help her heal through this.
What I hear in this may not be the way you communicate it is that the Nandanile is so deep,
is that they knew they were gay for a long time and chose not to acknowledge that.
I would say in my situation, that was not the case.

(36:24):
In lots of therapy and looking back in time, I can say, I know what my brain was interested in.
But I didn't acknowledge it. I pushed it away and put it in a box. I really did.
I had to answer three questions periodically with the military.
Are you a communist? Are you a member of an organization that would advocate the overthrow of the US government?

(36:46):
Are you a homosexual? And I knowingly said, or cautiously said, I was not a homosexual
because I didn't believe I was a homosexual.
So my mind, I don't think I was for decades holding anything back when I got married.
I was generally in love, fell in love for all the right reasons, great dating relationship.

(37:07):
You know, it was beautiful in my mind. I think it wasn't hers too until that one day when I said,
I think I'm a gay man.
I'm so glad you said that because I think that that absolutely happens.
In the cases where that is true, it's so important.
And we see better outcomes in those scenarios.
I think it's important to acknowledge the extreme other end happens as well.

(37:32):
Another man went to college and at the time that all of his friends were getting married,
he said, I looked around and he said, it sounds horrible to say,
but I picked my wife because she seemed like she'd be the easiest to convince.
Again, if you were that wife.
I don't prescribe any of that.
Yeah, yeah.
Knowing that that exists and those spouses have every right to be enraged,

(37:59):
I think that we have to understand that those are real outcomes here.
And we want to avoid that for everybody.
And I really appreciated this conversation today.
I think it's been very rich.
I really enjoy the guide.
The guide to coming out as lesbian, gay or bisexual to your straight partner or spouse.

(38:20):
Where do listeners find that?
So if you go on the ARPATH website, you click on resources.
And then there's a specific section of resources for LGBT folks.
And we have books like William Dameron's book.
I think other podcasts interviewing, we can add yours to it.
I think it'd be a great resource.

(38:42):
Under there, it says, here, like there's a PDF kind of pinned right at the top of that resource list that says,
"Guide to coming out."
So.
I find it insightful and helpful, like I said, I wish I would have had that to help myself through this process.
So.
I appreciate.
Well, I just, if I can just add, I so appreciate it.
And I'm grateful for you doing this show because I think we need to have the hard conversations.

(39:06):
And I know every time I talk to a gay husband, I heal more.
And I believe that this is the way that we heal forward.
Well, thank you.
And thank you again for being here today and sharing your story and insight and the work that you're doing with ARPATH.
Thank you, David.
I really appreciate it.
It's great to talk to you.
My thanks to Kristen Kobley for sharing the hard truth about what it's like for the straight spouse.

(39:30):
A mixed orientation marriage may end badly regardless, but as Kristen explained,
"How and when you come out to your straight spouse could make all the difference in your future relationship
and the mental health of the whole family."
When a woman learns her husband's gay, everything she once believed about him may come into question.
She may ask herself, "Did he always know was the whole marriage a lie?"

(39:55):
Kristen urges the closet and spouse to share the truth as early as possible,
perhaps seek the help of a therapist and understand that she's hearing news you may have been processing for a very long time.
Share your regrets, be vulnerable.
Try to answer her questions honestly and if appropriate, make amends.
That's it for now.
Join us next time on Outlate with David.

(40:18):
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Kristin Kalbli - The Impact of Coming Out on Straight Spouses

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Kristin Kalbli - The Impact of Coming Out on Straight Spouses