Rick Clemons - author, life coach, and host of LIFE (UN)CLOSETED & 40 PLUS…GAY MEN, GAY TALK - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Watch the video version of this podcast at OutLateWithDavid.com.

(00:04):
Hi, I'm David Cotton. I'm a father, a brother, a son. I'm a retired U.S. Air Force
Brigadier General, a former senior executive in the Department of Defense, a corporate
vice president, and now a life coach. At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,

(00:30):
I'm gay. Join me, as I talk with others, who've made this coming out journey late in life to
become who they really are. You're listening to OutLateWithDavid.
My guest today is well known as the host of the popular podcast Life Uncloseted, as well as

(00:52):
40+ gay men gay talk. He is a sought after public speaker and a successful life coach. Joining me
today, author of the book, Frank the My Dear M. Gay, Rick Clemens. Rick, welcome. I'm so
happy you're here. You have become one of the most well-known authorities in this field.
Between you, bring rainbows and making it history. That's why I got me through my coming

(01:13):
out process. Is it right to say that helping men coming out of the closet and beyond has
become kind of your life's work? Yeah, it has. I mean, I've been doing it since 2009.
If somebody told me in 1999 I was going to be doing this, I'm like, "Ah, no, you're crazy."
Because between divorcing everything else, I'm like, "I don't think so." But I have a full-time

(01:36):
gig that I do now as a coach, as well as this. So I balance it all out. Yes, I absolutely
steal on coaching gay men on all sorts of stuff, not just coming out, but 50% of them are
guys in midlife coming out of the closet.
Let's get to your story. It's interesting. You're married and you had kids. If I recall,
your first came out and your teens and then in and out, what happened?

(02:01):
The biggest thing that happened was I was very naive at 19 when I did come out. I wasn't
ready. I mean, I was, but I wasn't. I mean, I'd never had any kind of sexual intercourse with
anybody. I'd messed around with some gals and stuff. I knew what I was into. I knew
there was men, but it was such a, you know, we were talking in the mid 80s or beginning of

(02:24):
the 80s. Actually, 82, 83 is one of this was happening for me. When I came out to my parents,
they said, "No, I did go visit a pastor and talked with him, but as I say in my book, it really
didn't work, mom and dad, because he was really, really hot. He was really a sexy guy."
And I'm like, "Well, that's pretty bad that I'm, you know, Jones and over the pastor, but
I did have a moment where I'm like, okay, maybe this is just a passing phase for me."

(02:50):
It wasn't. Obviously at 36, I finally did come out, but it was a lot of family pressure, a lot
of fear, a lot of naïveness on my side. To be honest, I just didn't have what it took to
like take a stand. And I think many guys feel that.
Did your religious upbringing have a factor on that as well?
There was some influence, honestly, David, but I would say that probably wasn't the biggest

(03:14):
influence. It was more, I'm going to disappoint my family. I had a very overbearing father
who was like, "Nope, you're not going to be this and you're going to get it together and
you're going to do the..." And that's what I ended up doing. I'm like, "Okay." And then once
I realized I can do that life and I can do the other life, that wasn't so painful, even

(03:38):
though it was.
Yeah. That fear and disappointing the family is the biggest thing I hear from the guys
I talk to. They don't want to disappoint their parents or their spouse either.
Let them down. I married them. I was in love with what's going on in my head. Why have I
changed? Why can't I just not get over it?
That's a tough dialogue in your own head. I meant I did it for... I met my wife shortly

(04:04):
after I graduated college and there was a connection. I was never... I didn't hate having
sex with her, but every chance I got, there was other things I was more interested in looking
at. And as I started to venture into that world, which is not one of the things I'm most proud
of. I cheated the entire time I was with my wife. I've talked about this numerous times,

(04:28):
so this is... No news to anybody who may have heard me talk before and I don't say that
from an egoic space. I'm living and telling my truth. And that was probably the hardest
thing for me to realize that this doesn't feel good, but I'm going to do it because ironically
it feels good. How do I keep my sanity and balance through all these things? And that's

(04:51):
a really tough way to be in the world. But man, David, did I learn a lot about that? That
whole process of hiding and living a dual life really taught me about the conflicts that
we have in our own heads.
How is it that resolved that conflict? One is that shift to get to the rick you have today,
which is what you see is what you get versus I'm holding back in some level.

(05:15):
Couple of things. There were a lot of people who were like, "You never smile. You never seem
happy." I'm not. The bigger piece of the puzzle, which is part of what's in, frankly, my dear
home gay, is I was in London. I had a free evening all to myself, even though I was traveling
for work. I very petrified way showed up in a gay bar by myself for the very first time.

(05:42):
I'd been to gay bars with other people, but I'd never had walked in one by myself. A guy
came up and started chatting me up and I'm like, "Okay, this is cool. We had a wonderful
evening. We went out, drank a little more, danced a little more." Then the inevitable happened
like, "Would you like to come back to my room?" It was so interesting, because actually my

(06:03):
head just clicked into place. "Okay, sure. We could do this. Been there, done that. Let's
go." He was handsome. In my mind, he was cute and gorgeous and all that sort of stuff.
We'd had some feeling moments on the dance floor. I'm like, "This could be really fun."

(06:25):
He never went there. He never went there. We stayed in his hotel the whole night, but when
I speak about this on stage, I talk about it like that was the night. There was no sex.
I fell in love and I fell apart because for the first time, I experienced something beyond
Wambam. Thank you, sir. I could feel it. I could see it. It was a beautiful moment and it

(06:50):
lasted for about four months. It lasted long enough in that week. That was the week I came
out to my wife. I came home and said, "We got to talk." It was that glimpse of, "Here's
the reality. I can actually see it," which was obviously something that was blindsided
by me for many years, David. I couldn't see the other side. I could see the sex, but I couldn't

(07:14):
see the intimacy. I couldn't see what it looked like to have a relationship with God, even
though I wanted it. Those were the two things that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
That intimacy of just the moment and the person and their presence, not sex. I know a lot
of people have a hard time understanding that. I talk to clients and they say, "I know

(07:36):
how I feel, but I've never had anything with a guy, but I just know that I just don't get
that connection and how could a guy ever be in love with another guy?" Then they should
describe it happens. We have least expected. Sometimes that's the biggest piece is that
can be the thing that scares you to death, too. It's like, "Okay, I could do sex." I mean,
a really good friend of mine, Dr. Joe Court. He's another sexologist and we're really well

(08:00):
known in our community. He talks about the transactional sex that men have. He talks a lot
about this. A lot of people push back like, "No, guys don't have sex with other guys and
it's just sex." I'm like, "Yes, it is. There are a lot of guys who can have sex with other
guys." In fact, a lot of them are the guys that are down low. You'll see them on the apps

(08:20):
like down low. I just want to get off, but you can always tell when it's just transactional
to, and I'm kind of generalizing here, but it's transactional when. Oh, no, no kissing.
No kissing. No kissing whatsoever. Then it's kind of a transactional. It's very intimate
at that point, right? Yeah, exactly. I think this is something.
There's open couples. That's one of the rules they have is they're an open couple, but it's

(08:43):
no kissing allowed because that's the intimate private space. You're not going to rate that.
We all create those rules. We all find our pathways through that stuff. But I like you. I've
worked with so many clients that they're like, "Well, then that just takes it to a whole new
level." I'm like, "Yes, but if you don't go to that next level of understanding beyond
transactional sex to intimacy, you may be living as a gay man. I'm just living on sex."

(09:08):
Many gay men do, and that's why there's a lot of healing still to be done in our beautiful
world.
You said this is the moment where you then came home and you came out to your spouse. Tell
me about that process and how that worked and how it was received.
Well, it was not pretty to say the least. I was actually really nervous. I mean, I was

(09:30):
on a high because I was left London and I'd flown all the way to Los Angeles and I felt
something. I was a giddy little schoolboy all that flight. I also was very nervous because
the whole time I was on that flight, I rode out every reason that this is stupid and this

(09:50):
is great. This is stupid and this is great because I had never probably been that committed
to like, "We're doing this, are we? We're really, really doing this." Even when I landed
and called her and said, "Hey, I'm on the ground." As I walked out of the airport and got to my
car and got in, I'm like, "Ooh, I don't know if I can do this." All the way down the 405

(10:14):
freeway from LA to South Orange County, I was a nervous wreck. There were a couple of
times I actually looked in the rear view mirror and saw semi-s and thought, "You know what,
I could just spin that wheel. I could just spin that wheel and nobody would know the difference."
But when I did walk in that house, she was excited to see me. I mean, we had two little girls. She'd

(10:39):
been stuck for almost, I don't know, eight, ten days, being mom, working mom, all that sort
of stuff. I thought, "It's either now or never." I said, "I'm happy to see you too, but we need
to talk." That didn't set well, obviously, because like, "Wait, you walk in and that's the first
thing you say is we need to talk." Then we got the girls off to bed and as soon as we got

(11:02):
them in bed, she goes, "Okay, what's up?" I said, "I told you once I had these same sex attractions
and I can't do this anymore. I'm gay." It devastated. I'm trying to remember exactly if I left
that night or it was the next day, but it wasn't pretty. I didn't know where I was going.

(11:26):
I mean, I made good money, but we didn't have the second house at the beach or anything at
that point. It was heartbreaking, freeing, exciting, scary. He is named the adjectives. It was all
of it. It hurt. It hurt because I knew I was hurting her, it hurt because I knew I was hurting

(11:50):
my babies. My youngest one was only nine months old at that time, so I knew the path I'd just put us on.
It was going to be really hard as a parent. I mean, this is life-changing stuff that happens.
Those who are on the other side, they don't see it coming. A lot of times I don't think us on this

(12:11):
side see it coming and tell it actually happens. It might just knock up on me. It was a
couple. It was a TV moment based on my head. I decided, "Yeah, this is the time to tell."
Well, how do I know it's the right time? You'll know. You will know. Only you will know. I mean,
there may be others, but it's always so interesting when people ask that question. You'll know, as your

(12:37):
coach, I'll help you start to figure it out. But I'm not going to say, "I don't have a rainbow
magic wand that says, 'Poof, here it is.' This is the date." And I think that's a big reason for me.
You're coming out to your spouse or your parents or friends. It's true. When you know, you know.
I assume you're able to then successfully co-parent because I hear that as a concern too with

(12:59):
guy. I say, "I don't want to lose my connection to my child and my, the mother of my child, I want to
have some relationship going forward. How are you able to balance that out and actually meet
what you wanted to do to be their present for your kids?" It took a little bit of work. I mean,
we started out with a crazy schedule of like every two to three days,

(13:20):
the kids were going back and forth between, quote, "households," so to speak. There was even a time
once I moved out of the area that I would, you know, I would drive down and stay in her house
a couple of nights a week and then go back to my house. There was a time when the girls were with me

(13:44):
and my partner, now husband. And we would get on trains to go to Orange County from the Inland
Empire in California. And we would be up at the crack of dawn and girls were on trains getting to
Orange County, dropping out their schools and I'd go to Mid Orange County and work and then come down,
pick them up at school, get on a train, go home. I mean, we did that life for almost a year and then

(14:07):
I finally said, "This is, this, we got to do something. This is not good for the kids." And long story short,
lots of things had happened and she moved closer to us. We've all grown through that. The kids are now
20, ooh, almost at 24, but one of them is going to be 25 in a few days here, so I'm like 25 and 28, so

(14:28):
and they're great. They're beautiful, amazing, strong young women.
More of my interview with Rick and Justin Moment, but first I'd like to recommend a book I found
helpful on my coming out journey. The book is by today's guest entitled, "Frankly My Dear I'm Gay."
It's part memoir and part self-help book as he tells the story of his own coming out journey as a gay

(14:50):
parent. He also covers topics about life after coming out. He sprinkles a few thought provoking
exercises into his story that you'll no doubt find helpful on your journey. Again, the book is,
"Frankly My Dear I'm Gay, a Late Bloopers Guide to Coming Out by Rick Clements."
For more books and online resources about coming out late in life, visit outlatewithdavid.com.

(15:10):
You're listening to Outlate with David. Now back to more of my conversation with Rick.
You've met with a lot of men, heard a lot of their stories, their process, their concerns,
what went through their head. Is there anything that's like the common thread that you noticed for
"Coseted Men Coming Out?" Oh, we could go a whole show just on that. There are some definite threads.

(15:38):
It's kind of like the thoughts already always been there. It's like the pebble in the shoe.
One of the most interesting things that I found David in my practice is the number of
men and women. I'm going to say men and women, who were in the couple. How consistently there has

(15:59):
been a complete depletion of sex life in their relationship. A, we're better off as roommates and
friends, sort of mentality, and a huge level of co-dependence in their relationship. Those things
kind of shocked me until I started seeing the consistent pattern. I'm like, "Yeah, we haven't had sex

(16:21):
in two to five. I mean, as high as 10 years, we haven't had, we haven't been intimate in that long."
Wow.
"Codepennancy really surprised me, but then it didn't surprise me." It's almost like they both leaned
on the dependency of each other. Or the identity. The prime identity is that as a couple, not as
an individual in the world. Absolutely. Yeah, there's not a lot of individuality identity going on.

(16:47):
And that happens for the guys too. I mean, many of them are like, "I don't know who I really am." In
fact, one of the things that was hardest for me was I met my wife as I already shared right out of
college. And so then suddenly, and my co-dependence shows up in about what I'm about to share.
She was there all the time. I let her be in my place, which she could get off campus and be with me.

(17:09):
And suddenly, I needed that. I needed that camaraderie. I needed that like constant person.
And I know in my own heart that that was part of the reason I struggled so much when I did come out.
Like, I just need a man. I just need somebody. I need somebody or I can't make it.
And until I actually allow myself to take that break in that, let that like, be my truth that I can be

(17:36):
on my own. Man, I struggled. I've got a young guy I'm working with right now. It's only been six
years. He's petrified at what's it going to be like to go home and be with myself? I'm
like, that's absolutely beautiful, man. It's the, I put it in like you need to love yourself first.
Before you can really extend yourself to somebody else. Yeah, you want to go out there and meet and

(17:57):
you want to partner up. You want to get back to your normal where you come home to somebody every
day. But you got to sit in your own skin and really relish the moment and find joy of that.
There's just so many ways through this as you well know, David, that there is no, I can't give
anybody like here. Here's your, here's the blueprint. Here's what you need to do because there's so much

(18:19):
dynamics in it. And the only thing I can say is continue to trust yourself, which is hard because we've
grown up not trusting ourselves because we can't talk about this. So there's a distrust. Trust yourself
and go figure out who you are. Because if you come to the table as who you are, you're going to be
much more attractive to the guy you're trying to attract to you. So what's the biggest lie that a

(18:44):
closet man tells himself that it's a passing phase? I just want to experiment. I just want to try it.
Now, I've been doing this since 2009. I don't know how many guys for sure. I don't, I used to keep track
of the number. I would say I'm close to probably six, seven hundred guys. I've coached since then. Maybe

(19:10):
more if I really did the math out of that entire group. I would say less than 10 guys backed out and
said, no, this wasn't for me. It truly was like I need to have a transactional experience. One guy,
he really enjoyed it. But he goes, yeah, I can't really see doing this with a guy day in and day out.
And it's not my role as a coach to go, come on, you did it. Stick with it. You got to go after the man.

(19:35):
You got to stick. No, my goal as a coach is like, I want you to find your truth. And if that truth is
what works and that resonates with you, then great. That's where I want you to be.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map
a course to achieve the things you really want. Together we will unwind those persistent

(20:00):
self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward to
discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.

(20:23):
You're listening to Out Late with David.
So you have your new podcast or it's newer 40 plus game in gay talk and you talk about a lot of
issues that really enjoy it, by the way. Older man, but I'd say it really kind of, it's a
all-man really applied to listen to it. But you're very candid about stuff about erectile dysfunction,

(20:45):
lack of sexual interest, medication. You know, why is it important for you to be so honest about
your own experiences and bring this information forward? Well, because I want guys to just know,
you're not alone. Yeah, my penis isn't working right now. Okay, well, okay, you know, but then I find
ways to make it work, you know. I recently did one with a guy who's created an interesting,

(21:08):
I'm just going to call it. It's an interesting version of a cock ring that actually actually
stimulates you without you feeling like you're cut off. And guys are like, I hope he gave you some
sample of it and everything. I'm like, well, not, yeah, we're working on that. But they're like,
I could never talk about this stuff. I'm like, that's why we have 40 plus gay man gay talk,

(21:29):
because we're not talking about the stuff we need to talk about. One thing you've always
been clear about, it's important to living your authentic life. And so for you, what does it mean
to be authentic? So when I started leaning into, what is this I really do? Yes, I help men,
basically, men come out of the closet, right? But I started feeling this calling to be a bigger

(21:52):
voice in a different way. And so I worked with my marketing person, different marketing person.
And she asked three very pointed questions, David. And she said, what was the thing that was
you were struggling with the most before you came out? And I said, you know, I was afraid. She
was, okay, cool. She goes, but as you were afraid, what else was happening when you were in that fear?

(22:17):
I could come up with every excuse why this would never work. I was Mr. excuse maker. And she goes,
oh, interesting. She goes, but you talk a lot about being authentic, but she goes, was that really what
it was? I said, authenticity is one piece of it. But I want to just be unapologetic about who I am in
the world. And she got really quiet. And she goes, you know what you do for people, but you just now

(22:43):
said it in a completely different way. She goes, you help them dump their excuses, face their fears,
and unapologetically be who they are. And for me, David, that was when I really got my authenticity.
I don't want to apologize to me being authentic is being unapologetic and being just the full

(23:05):
truth of you. That's it. And sometimes it's a hard pill to swallow. What's on your horizon personally
and professionally? Oh, that's a good question. Possibly a third podcast. I know that sounds crazy.
But that's coupled with a brand new book that I'm currently shopping, trying to get out there

(23:32):
with an agent with a major publisher. I would really like to go major publishing this go around.
It's called an apologetic. That's the book that's a long going to share for now because it's always
subject, but that will be the title of the book. And it's coming from that space of yes, but it's
coming from all that space of what I've learned over actually the years of doing life uncloseted.

(23:54):
So for the last two and a half, almost three years, I have been taking in the content and the ideas
and things people have said and things that I've adjusted to like, okay, well, what does it mean to
be truly living your life uncloseted, but also being unapologetically yourself in the world? And that's
become what the book has become. And so that's on the horizon. I'm

(24:17):
trustful that this year it will get an agent and representation. And if it doesn't, it will get
published. It will get published one way or the other. So that's kind of the biggest stuff. I may
wrap up a podcast. I'm still on the fence about life uncloseted. But we're at 650.

(24:39):
We will be at 650 some episodes come June or July. I love that podcast. But I almost feel like I need
to clear some energy for the next phase or whatever it is. And other than that, just trying to be
healthy, wealthy and wise. So that's the biggest things. Maybe it's like coming out, you'll know it when

(25:02):
the time is right. Yes. Yep. Yep. I've really, I said, I really appreciate all the beautiful stories
people have shared about coming out of cancer and, you know, different relationships and moving
into who you are and taking risks in a job or I mean, I had some really amazing guests who told
some amazing, amazing heartfelt, heart-centered stories about their own version of a closet.

(25:25):
I realized when I hit the 600 episode, I wanted to go back and start being true to my community.
Like life uncloseted is about living your life uncloseted as an LGBTQ+ person. I feel like it's
the time is right to get back centered on my community because of everything that's going on in the
world around LGBTQ+ rights and all these things. So we'll see if it continues to blossom, then I

(25:53):
feed off of my own fun and if it's going really well, then we could go for another 600 episodes.
As we leave, what is the one message you'd like the men who are coming out, let her life to know
and believe while they're on their own journey? You know, that's a great question, David, and I'm
going to leave it with a phrase that I say every time I have the privilege of being on a stage.

(26:17):
Well, I'm talking to the LGBTQ community or I'm talking to college students or I'm talking to a
business group about creating this unapologetic way of being in the world and yeah, I do this talk when
when I'm with entrepreneurs and business people because it's like if you're going to build a
business, you need to be unapologetic about it. You need to own every step of it. Don't let those

(26:38):
fears get in the way. Don't let the excuses. And regardless of how that talk, it's called a leap
out of your status quo life. It's one of my favorite talks to do. I always bring it back at the very end
to the reason that most people never get to where they're going. They never get past those excuses
and those fears and never feel the thrill of living an unapologetic life. It's because they don't

(27:04):
understand this. The truth of who you are is far more powerful than the false truth you're pretending
to be. So go show the world who you are. And I believe in that statement 100%. It's mine. I
love getting to share that. I say it to myself all the time like when I'm in my when I'm in my

(27:26):
stuff, I'm like, okay, that you're who you are is far more powerful than who you're pretending to be
right now. So come on, go show people and it bring it around. It energizes me. Sometimes it's
slaps me upside the head and I go lay in bed and cry. And then I get up and I go again. But I truly
believe that pretending to be something you're not is not a way to live. It's absolutely not a way to live.

(27:48):
That is powerful. And that's a perfect way to end today. Powerful stories, as you know,
as we share these, it's going to help people that we don't even know when they hear the stories.
They'll be comforted to know that not alone. So Rick Clemens, thank you so much for being here today.
You remain one of the superstars to me. 600 plus episodes just in one podcast. It's incredible.

(28:09):
Blessings to you. Thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you so much.
For me, the key takeaway in talking with Rick is the idea we all need to work past our
limiting fears and show the world who we really are living in unapologetic light.
I know I denied my true identity for too many years and doing such cause me and others pain.

(28:30):
I might have lessened the pain and I take it action to live a more unapologetic and authentic life
earlier. I can't change my past, but some listening now have the opportunity to change their
future and address their limiting fears. This doesn't diminish these fears, but if we never get past
excuses for not exploring and addressing the fears of the coach, therapist, or copy-dot,

(28:52):
you will, as Rick put it, never feel the thrill of living an unapologetic life.
The truth of who you are is far more powerful than the false truth you're pretending to be.
That's it for now. Join us next time on Out Late With David.
To hear more episodes, visit OutLateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching

(29:15):
services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.

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