Ron Bunnell - 39 years into his marriage before he came out to his wife; now living a full life - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Watch the video version of this podcast at outlaidwithdavid.com.

(00:04):
Hi, I'm David Codden. I'm a father, a brother, a son. I'm a retired U.S. Air Force
Brigadier General, a former senior executive in the Department of Defense, a corporate
vice president, and now a life coach. At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,

(00:31):
I'm gay. Join me as I talk with others who've made this coming out journey late in life
to become who they really are.
You're listening to Outlaidwithdavid.
My guest today was 39 years into his marriage before he came out to his wife. What happened

(00:54):
next was both joyful and sad. It's a story of love and sacrifice. And today at age 71,
my guest is living a joyful and authentic life. He'll tell us how we got to this place
in life and what he's learned. Join me from his home in Seattle, Ron Bunnell.

(01:18):
So Ron, welcome. It's great to have you here.
Well, thank you, David. I'm happy to be here.
10 years ago at 61, you were, I think, I recall 39 years in your marriage when you decided
to come out to your wife. What were the circumstances that led to that decision?
Well, I wouldn't say so much it was a decision as just a set of circumstances. I had been

(01:45):
communicating with a man by email and my wife happened to read the email. And she
couldn't, didn't make any sense to her. So she just said, "What is this?" And, you know,
I had really lived my whole life afraid that this secret would come out. And I mean, I

(02:13):
don't think there was a date. I didn't think, "What is today the day that it's going
to happen?" And I had decided that if something like this happened, I was not going to lie.
I wasn't going to try to cover it up. And so she said, "What is this?" And I said, "You
know, I'm gay." And I literally thought my life would end as I knew it, that my marriage

(02:37):
would end, things would happen with that work in France. And she just blew me away when
she said, "You know, Ron, I still love you. I want us to stay married." And we, I mean, we
actually was almost like we were falling in love again over the next few days. You know,

(03:02):
we talked intimately, talked in ways that we hadn't, had in three years. And just really enjoyed
and relished, you know, talking about our innermost feelings. And of course, for me, it was like
the first time in my life that I could really be authentic and come out as the person that

(03:25):
I really was. And to do that in this loving environment with Barb was just an amazing experience.
What do you think she was so, I guess, open to that when you were open, honest, and vulnerable
something you had hidden all those years? And it sounds like it surprised you under her
reaction. Oh, you know, either if it's just one word, it's love. You know, we had been together

(03:51):
for a long time, you know, married for 39 years, but they gathered longer than that. And she's
an open-minded person. She had gay friends. In fact, you know, she said, you know, how hypocritical
it would be of her to say, yes, people should be open and honest. Everyone except my own husband.

(04:15):
So we started, you know, like I said, very positively, but if it was a rocky road because it's one thing to,
you know, to believe in the concept and the idea of being married to a gay man, but you know,
things play out. A lot of challenges. What were the bumps then in that rocky road on the challenges

(04:42):
that you encountered? Well, we started to, we agreed that I would come out slowly. We started by
coming out to my kids. Well, I said, I'm gay. They go, oh, is that all? So that really went
surprisingly well. And then I came out to my brothers. I have three brothers and different reactions,

(05:10):
but all three said they loved me. Two of them are Christians, strong Christians, and one of them's
fundamentalists. And his reaction was, well, you're a sinner, but I still love you. And then when we
ended the discussion, he said, but you know, if you ever got married, I don't think I can come to your

(05:34):
wedding. But I just felt good that he was able to come that far. You know, the fact that he was accepting
and loving was a big gift. And then, you know, Barb did say that I could have a boyfriend. And so

(05:57):
and that's where things got complicated. So I would, you know, you know, go out with a man and,
you know, surprisingly, she wanted like, like, like, read a text to her updates on what's going on,
whatever. She does, she just couldn't stand to just stay home and think, oh my god, what's going on
here and not know anything. And was that loving supporting curiosity? Or do you think it was

(06:24):
something else type of curiosity? Well, I think it was loving and supporting, but also a way to cover
her own pain, you know, to, you know, she was sharing me. She was, you know, she always wanted to be
involved with my life. And here was a part of my life that I think she continued to want to be

(06:45):
involved with. But it was when she found that email, other than email, was there any
things that you had done or she had observed that had her downing? No, oh my gosh, she had no idea.
That just, no one did. It was a complete surprise to everyone that,
that I came out to. So you're out there looking for the boyfriend and trying to build relationship.

(07:12):
How did that traverse? So I did go on some dates and even actually,
you know, went to San Francisco. We lived in Phoenix at the time and took a trip to San Francisco
with a man. And it was really, for me, very joyous to just, for the first of our life, just be totally,

(07:35):
you know, who I am. But shortly after that, you know, Barb asked me in the relationship. She said,
it was just too much moving too fast for her. And so I did. And then we, you know, we entered this

(07:58):
period that was just really tough for me because, you know, it was almost like, you know, I've been
suppressing all these feelings for so long. And then they started surfaces and it was like a
volcano coming up. I just wanted everything to come out. I wanted, I wanted a yell from the
mountain tops. I'm gay. And, you know, we had decided. And I think logically, I certainly from them,

(08:25):
just, you know, I understood why she wanted to move slow. I didn't want to come out to more friends
and wanted me to in the relationship. But it was just, it was just really a tough period. And I,
because I just couldn't see where it was going and how I could, I had this tiny taste of being

(08:47):
authentic and I wanted it to expand and to be even more. And so, you know, I started losing sleep.
I was just really anxious about things. And in one morning, I just totally broke down. I just,
I fell on the ground. I couldn't even, I couldn't even get up. And Barb came over and helped me up.

(09:11):
You know, we just cried together and bad. And then I also started therapy with just a
incredible therapist. I really did worry about this secret coming out. You know, it was a,

(09:32):
it was a part of me. You know, it's kind of surprising when other people don't see it.
But I, you know, I kept it a secret since I was nine years old. So I was pretty
accomplished. I can remember them the time when I told myself, oh my gosh.

(09:54):
I have to change. I have to keep this a secret. I,
when I was either nine or ten, our family was on vacation. We went to go see the first castle.
And my dad said, oh, you, each of your boys can go buy something in the gift shop. And I bought

(10:16):
this little manicure set. And my dad goes, oh, well, that's something for girls. And I think you
regretted the comment almost immediately, but it did really stung. And I realized, you know,
I, that's a sight of me. I have to hide it. I went back and look, you know, I guess it was a few

(10:40):
years ago at photos, when I was a kid. And before that incident, I was wearing these, you know, colorful,
flowery shirts and afterwards. It was all muted, graze and blues.
This is after the response to the nail. Yeah. And I, like I said, so I, it was a very conscious

(11:01):
decision. I cannot show this side of me. Whereever bullied as a kid in school or by family.
And then, you know, it's surprising. You know, I thought it was pretty good at holding this
secret, but you know, kids are pretty intuitive. And there wasn't incident. I was in sixth grade.
And somebody, we had this great big, you know, those big, big,

(11:28):
dictionaries that library sometimes have the giant, the big, we had one of those in my sixth grade class.
And somebody opened it up and wrote in black ink. Rod is a fag.
Hmm. Wow. And how did that feel? Oh my gosh. I just felt like, just, I just want to

(11:51):
create and test it and, you know, be invisible. And what do you think somebody thought that and
wrote it in the dictionary? Well, you know, I mean, I was, you know, I wasn't particularly athletic or,
you know, it certainly wasn't, you know, you know, a, you know, boyish. And, um, you know, I think,
like when we would play baseball, I would join in, but I'd say, well, I want to be the umpire. I don't,

(12:15):
like, no, I want to play. And I would go, you know, I'd play four square with the girls and, you
know, there were certainly signs there with that, that, that, that people could, could pick up. So,
I mean, reading signals in as a child from family and friends that, yeah, Ron's got to stay inside

(12:35):
this box. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's a norm. A norm was at the day. Yeah.
You're listening to Out Late with David. I want to share a book that dives deep into the experiences
of those and mixed orientation marriages. Much like our guest today is called Over the Cliff,
Gay Husbands in Straight Marriages by Bonnie Kay and Doug Dimmer. This book is a heartfelt exploration

(13:02):
of the complexities and emotional challenges faced by gay men who found themselves in straight
marriages. Bonnie and Doug offer not just personal stories, but also practical advice and support
for those navigating these difficult waters. They shed light on the often unspoken struggles and
the journey towards self-acceptance and truth. What I left about this book is its compassion and

(13:23):
understanding. It's a beacon of hope for anyone who might feel isolated or confused about their
situation. Whether you're directly impacted or just looking to understand more about this experience,
Over the Cliff is a powerful eye-opening read. Now back to today's guests, Ron Bunnell.
[Music]
By grew up in Boulder, Colorado, I think you're a pretty open,

(13:47):
where you're trying to go to boys at that age. Well, I was. I mean, I can remember
like being with some friends and they would pull up on a playboy and you know,
look at the picture of their girls and I would just think, what do they see in this?
[Laughter]

(14:10):
But I didn't. I never really had a relationship with a boy until college.
And at college I did have a boyfriend. No? We both kept it under the QT. We did not want

(14:31):
anyone to know about it. In fact, he, I remember he didn't even want to admit that he was gay. He said,
you know, "Ron, I'm not a homosexual. I'm a ronisexual." He said, "I'm just very specific to you."
So we were both motivated to. So always Ron?
To keep it quiet. Well, I knew I was gay but still I was ashamed and wanted to change. I didn't

(15:01):
want to admit it. You married shortly after that because you were early 20s. I did. So I met
Barb in high school. I did. I remember I asked her, I said, "Well, what do you see in me?"
And she said, "Well, you know, Ron, you're just not like the other boys."
So, but you said that she was surprised when you did tell her though years later on what the difference is?

(15:29):
I don't think she ever made the connection that, you know, she knew I was sensitive. She,
you know, there's a lot of attributes, but she never associated with it being gay. She just thought
I was a kind-hearted soul. Were you making a conscious decision then? I have to be straight.

(15:49):
I have to act this way. And did you tell anybody else that I didn't tell anybody?
No, no. Except for the one man I had the relationship with in college, I never told anyone.
And the relationship with Barb, so I came back from college at Christmas break and she ran into my

(16:16):
twin brother and said, "Do you know if Ron Ron gets home, haven't looked me up." So I did and
we started a relationship that really flourished. Like I said, we really enjoyed each other's company,
had a real attraction. I did try to break it up once and, you know, a couple of weeks later,

(16:42):
she called me and said, "Ron, I'm just miserable without you." And I had to admit that I was miserable
without her too. And so I, we got engaged when I was still at senior in college and then we got married
in June of 1975, which is right after I graduated. And we had kids just a couple of years later.

(17:09):
And then I would say my life was really on automatic pilot. I mean, I was just, you know,
a consumer with work and my career. I had two kids at home and I was really, I was a very,
you know, devoted father and husband. And so that was really what our life was about for

(17:34):
until the kids left home. Yeah, there's a big shift from today's norms in the 1970s
to what was acceptable or not and what the boundaries are. You know, it is, I mean, so Stonewall was in 1969.
You know, so that, you know, you think about it. That was in New York City, right? That was at,

(17:55):
you know, some place in the Bible belt. So that was right when I was in high school. And my mother
was raised as a Southern Baptist and, you know, it, I, you know, I can look back and I say,
you know, I knew people that were gay and they had the courage to come out. So I can't say,

(18:19):
you know, that it was impossible to do, but it just sure seemed impossible to me.
You heard about Stonewall in 1969. Did you have any feelings for wanting to identify with
that group of people or? Well, I would, I would, I certainly have a sympathetic and with my friend
group, I would say that, you know, they, they were as well, but it's, it's different to say,

(18:47):
you know, what I want to support, you know, the gay community and then to be married, have kids
and say, oh, by the way, I'm gay myself, I just, that was just a leap too far from me.
So if her from other guests, when they entered into a relationship where they knew they were gay

(19:09):
at their core, but they were sticking to what society expected, that it had an impact on their
relationship with their spouse, maybe sexual and other things. Did that have any type of negative
impact on your relationship with her as you move through life together? Well, you know, we had,
you know, a good intimate relationship. You know, I would, I would, I would, I would say we had

(19:40):
a very good relationship. It really wasn't until I came out and then, you know, sort of fast forward
to meeting my current husband, Scott, that I said, you know, what, you know, sex and intimacy with a
woman can be great, but it's kind of like, you know, black and white film can be great.

(20:03):
With, with a man, you know, it's full technical error and the, you know, the fire over
sure going off. So, you know, I would say it was, it's only in retrospect that I would say that
things could have been better in that environment. Okay. Let's take the technical error and black and

(20:24):
white analogy real quick, because you said when you came out, you go to San Francisco with a guy
and just like I see rainbows and fireworks who are everywhere. Yeah. She's going not so fast.
Right. So she's reeling you back in. What I see is back into the closet.
And how did that go? And I do. Gosh, that, that was, like, that was just the toughest part of this whole

(20:47):
this whole journey. And, you know, I explained I'd, I started therapy. I did get on, um,
lexapro. That's the third. I, I put not have set up myself, but I have to say that
the lexapro had a remarkable impact on stabilizing me, but, but I really noticed I was just sleeping

(21:12):
better. But the third thing is is that, um, I joined how that, or it's husband's out to wives.
And that was just an amazing organization because it's, it's composed of, of, of men who are married,
gay men, they're out to their wives and they want to maintain their, um, the relationship.

(21:37):
And so it was very helpful for me. I started with just exchanging emails with the men
the part of the group, but also the bar because she would talk to the wives in the group. And, um,
so, so this, this really, you know, did, you know, just knowing you're not alone.

(22:00):
And that there's, you know, other guys out there in the same situation. And, and of course,
they reached out and were so supportive. And then, um, shortly after I joined the group, they had
their national, um, conference in Minneapolis. This would be in 2014. And, um, I went there and

(22:22):
that's where I met Scott. And, um, and we just had an immediate connection. We just, um,
really had a lot of affection for each other. He's just an easy person to, um, to love. Because,
you know, he's just down to our earth and respectful. And, uh, just one of these guys that every,

(22:45):
everyone loves. And, um, you know, I, I told Bar about him and she said, you know, she's ready to,
for me to have a boyfriend under two conditions. One that he'd be, um, out of state. Because she

(23:06):
didn't want this constant competition. And two, that she meet him and approve of him.
So, um, so we met in October of 14 in that December. Barbara and I flew up, um, to Seattle from Phoenix
where we lived. And we met, um, Scott and his wife. They picked us up to the airport and took us out

(23:30):
for a really nice dinner. And, um, halfway through dinner, Barbara leaned over to me and said,
well, you found a winner. Uh, so, uh, the two criteria were met in her mind. The two criteria were
met and she had evolved. I mean, to her credit, she went from saying, you know, a few months earlier,
I'm just not ready for it. I have a boyfriend to, um, you know, understand this need. And, and,

(23:55):
and here's a, here is a compromise that, um, we think we're thinking to, can work.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map
a course to achieve the things you really want. Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt
that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.

(24:20):
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward to
discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com. You're listening to Outlate with David.

(24:42):
One thing that comes to mind, you mentioned to him before that she had kidney disease and you don't
use a kidney to a network which allowed her to get a kidney from a match donor. Do you think that
had any effect on her openness and your long-term future and happiness? She had, um,
polycystic kidneys and, um, which is a disease that, um, doesn't really have any negative consequences

(25:10):
until, at least for her until age 55 and her kidneys started to fail. And, and that it wasn't until,
her early 60s that she really needed a transplant. I was planning to give her one of mind
because we were platylic compatible, but it turns out that she had developed, um, and, um,

(25:33):
antibodies to my antigens during her pregnancies and we no longer were compatible, which was devastating
news. And so we were part of the first ever pay it forward kidney chain. Matt Jones came down from
Potosky, Michigan, to Phoenix, to donate a kidney to my wife. And, um, a week later, I flew to

(25:55):
Tfilido, Ohio and gave a kidney and, uh, to Angie and then her mother don't pay it forward and
it just kept getting paid forward and it was, it really, it, it captured the imagination of the,
of the country of the world. It was all over the, all over the news and the three networks at USA

(26:15):
today and even serious publications like the new, you know, we can, doing, we're in trouble with medicine.
Um, um, and when you ask the question, well, does this impact our relationship? Well, I have to say,
so a week after I did it in a kidney, I, I came back to Phoenix and we were both recovering from
surgeries together and it really was a very intimate time for us to be experiencing, um, this

(26:44):
together of kind of a whole new lease on life. Um, you know, barb was literally, um, you know,
getting a new lease on life and it's, and I was recovering the surgeries and we, we just were
closer during those weeks of recovery than I think we had, had ever been before and created a, a real,

(27:10):
love of, you know, up for each other and love of life and, and energy. Um, so that happened in 2007.
Um, and so I think it did, it did, it did tighten our bond. Um, but, you know, it was also, it,

(27:34):
it turned out to be, there was a negative part of this story and that is that, um,
um, her health started to decline, um, about this same time in 2015, you know, long story short, um,
she died, uh, January of 16. So this is a year and a half after, after I came out, um, and it was

(28:01):
only, um, 45 days after our divorce was finalized. Of course, had I known that, um, her health was declining
and that she only had, you know, less than a year to live, I would have, um, held off and you try to
make her last year of life the best it could be rather than, than one of the worst. Um, so that,

(28:24):
that certainly is, um, um, you know, when she died, a real source of, of guilt for me that, um,
transpired the way that it did. You should be happy for you today knowing, oh my gosh, I know she would,
she, I mean, on, literally in the hospital on her deathbed, she, she said, Ron, no regrets,

(28:46):
live your life. I should, you know, she wished me the best. Wow, that's really special. You know,
it's, it's a product of, you know, 40 years of love. So what do you have advice for a man
who, like you coming out later in life, exploring the possibility of experimentation, Mary,

(29:09):
if you're getting divorced, what would be thought you'd have for them as they sort through this
for themselves? You know, every circumstance is different and I, I, I hate to, um, I, I wouldn't give
any specific advice, um, because every, every situation is different. But I think if, if I was

(29:32):
going to give one piece of advice is if you, if you think, um, a certain path is the right one for
you, it is worth the pain to go through it and to, and to get to, to the, to the right place for you.
You know, pursue that path and, um, because I think you, you, you get through these challenges and,

(29:57):
and you end up at the other side and with a much, you know, much richer life, if you can just be
authentic to, to who you are. And, um, you can acknowledge, um, the love for your wife and acknowledge the,
the love for a man, um, but being authentic is, is the way to live. And I think we're so fortunate, um,

(30:24):
you know, to, to, to be, to, to evolve as far as, as we have, um, you know, so that people growing up
today, I mean, I have young friends who don't even have a coming out story. You know, I'm just myself.
Yeah. I mean, people year age, I mean, I don't know anyone that you're an age, my age that doesn't

(30:45):
have a coming out story. We all have coming out stories. Um, and they're all interesting and they're all
unique. Um, so you, we, we talked about a younger person than they, you know, which is the way to,
it's just the way they should be. Oh my gosh. I do have one burning question because I can get past
this in my head. Yeah. You said you had a brother that said, wouldn't come to a future wedding.

(31:10):
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So, um, Scott and I and Roger and Allie, uh, we were on vacation in Mexico
together and that's when I told, um, told them that we're going to get married and I'd say, I really
love for you to come in and they said, oh, we'd love to be there. And I said, what, what, what changed

(31:36):
your mind? And he said, God gave us lots of commandments, but the number one is love. And you know,
it just the journey, the personal journey that he taught and to end up at that spot just, you know,
it just meant so much to me. So he, he was my best man at the wedding and my, my, my other two brothers

(32:01):
should are were up there with me. Um, so yeah, I, you know, sometimes you just need to give people time
and, and, and, and, and, and, and they'll, and they'll work it through at our wedding. Um, we were
surrounded by love from friends and family. Um, you know, Barb had, had died before, obviously,

(32:23):
before the wedding, but her side of the family was there, you know, cousins and siblings.
We, we, we're very, very fortunate because, um, we just have the, the full love and support, um,
the both of our families. So, so we know that, um, that we have a lot of, a lot to be, a lot to be

(32:46):
grateful for. Or Ron, thank you for sharing your story today. You, sounds like you have a joyful life
and we know this is going to help others who are going through their own struggles for themselves. So,
it'll be a great service to them. Thank you very much for today. Yeah. Thank you. It was my pleasure.
Ron is a good example of why some couples choose to live in a mixed orientation marriage after one

(33:07):
of them comes out. He told the story of their loving life together, raising children, and even
donating a kidney for in her time of need. I was struck by the graciousness of Ron's wife,
wanting him to be happy and his fully realized sexual orientation, even supporting his desire for a
close relationship with a man. I was touched by the fact he believes his late wife would be happy for

(33:31):
him and Scott and the life they've built together. As Ron mentioned, he found the insight of the
husbands out to wives support group helpful. To find out more about husbands out to wives,
check our resource section on OutLateWithDavid.com. I'm David Cotton. See you next time.
To hear more episodes, visit OutLateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching

(33:56):
services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.
[BLANK_AUDIO]
[Music]

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ron Bunnell - 39 years into his marriage before he came out to his wife; now living a full life