November 14, 2023 • 27 mins
This epidsode released in honor of National Transgender Awareness Week 2023.
Sara Abrams spent most of her life identifying as a man. While she never considered herself a member of the LGBTQ+ community, at age 57, she came out and transitioned from male to female, while remaining in a relationship with her female partner of 28 years.
Book Recommendation: Trans Bodies, Trans Selves: A Resource by and for Transgender Communities https://a.co/d/98A3Ocy
Podcast website: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
Sara Abrams spent most of her life identifying as a man. While she never considered herself a member of the LGBTQ+ community, at age 57, she came out and transitioned from male to female, while remaining in a relationship with her female partner of 28 years.
Book Recommendation: Trans Bodies, Trans Selves: A Resource by and for Transgender Communities https://a.co/d/98A3Ocy
Podcast website: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Music]
(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cotton.
I'm a father of brother of son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive in the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,
(00:26):
I'm gay. Join me, as I talk with others,
who've made this coming out journey late in life to become
who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
My guest today spent most of her life identifying as a man.
And while she never considered herself a member of the LGBTQ+ community,
(00:50):
at age 57, she came out and transitioned from male to female,
while remaining in a relationship with her female partner of 28 years.
Joining me today from San Francisco is Sara Abrams.
[Music]
(01:12):
Sara, welcome to Out Late with David.
Thank you, David. I'm really happy to be here
and I'm really happy to be able to share my story.
When you got married, at the time you identified as a man,
is that correct?
You know, the whole thing about identifying as a man,
but what I like to tell people is, I mean,
it's kind of humorous that I feel it kind of true is,
(01:34):
I was cosplaying as a man, but poorly,
because I didn't know how I was supposed to be in everything.
I didn't have male role models. It was just kind of touching everything.
But yes, at that point, I identified as a heterosexual cis male.
(01:56):
What was the early years of the marriage's life? Were you happy and content?
Well, I mean, honestly, I was never fully comfortable with it,
but I did as best as I could and looking back,
you know, there were kind of warning signs that I wasn't, you know,
maybe the healthiest I could be in the relationship,
(02:20):
mental health problems, you know,
the whole thing about transitioning or being trans,
it never really came up until much, much later,
so that was never the thing.
But I kind of always knew that I was different,
but I never really understood why or how,
until I discovered my true gender.
(02:43):
How are you fulfilling your needs to identify as a woman?
This all happened all at once for me,
realizing that I am trans.
I was 57, I was going through some rough times in my life in a therapy session.
My therapist just kind of asked me about, you know,
(03:08):
what about your sexuality and gender,
and you know, I, the way I've always felt like I had a strong feminine side.
You know, I was always kind of sensitive, I always had female friends,
those were always my close friends, I was never really able to bond with other men
(03:30):
and everything as much as I've been able to bond with women.
So from there, that was kind of like, you know, from saying,
I think I have a very strong female side.
It's just like, oh my god, I'm a woman, I'm trans, it was from there.
There were really very little, if any sort of like clues to this before.
(03:53):
It was never like, I never dreamt of being a girl,
I never, you know, it was never those kind of things.
But I knew somehow I was different.
And that's why I say it's like, cause playing as a guy,
because I wasn't really a guy, but it was just like,
okay, I'm trans, everything made sense.
And it was from there, it was just like, I was off to the race,
it couldn't wait to transition, look back.
(04:15):
Just, one conversation in a therapy session,
will the therapist ask you about your sexual identity and gender identity?
Absolutely.
And it clicked and, you know, she actually came out to me as non-binary person.
(04:37):
I say she because she goes like she, they pronouns.
And actually, I talked to her about a year ago.
So this is a couple years after I started my transition, I said,
so did you have any idea of what was going on with me or is my gender goes?
And she said, well, I thought there was something there, but you can't just come out and ask,
oh, do you think you're a woman?
(04:58):
You know, is that, do you think you're trans?
Cause that would have, I think that, you know, that question is very,
you'd get the sense of that out and everything.
But allowing me to kind of come to that conclusion by myself,
and that she did see something in me.
Wasn't quite sure, again, wasn't quite sure what it was.
But that was the moment.
(05:23):
It was amazing.
It really was amazing.
So what did it feel like to live inside your body before that moment?
Well, you know, as a thing, I never really liked myself.
I never really felt comfortable myself.
My big dysphoria was not being able to look at myself in the mirror.
Not like what I saw and not wanting to, to, to, to,
(05:45):
because it didn't, I don't know if it didn't seem like me or just wasn't comfortable with it,
whatever, I just could not bring myself to look at myself in the mirror.
If I had to call my hair, whatever, I wouldn't make eye contact.
I didn't love myself.
I didn't take care of myself.
I didn't, I wasn't, you know, a great partner.
(06:06):
I wasn't a great friend.
You know, all these kind of things, I was very much alone,
a loner, didn't, never had a lot of friends.
And honestly, just kind of waiting for the, the clock to run out on my life and everything going,
I don't see a future for myself.
I never saw a future for myself.
(06:27):
I never saw goals for myself.
I never saw things to live for.
And that just completely changed as soon as I started, you know,
especially since I started hormones, about a month and a half after,
after I figured everything out.
So what is that transition process like then?
Once you had that realization of therapy session,
did you then look in the mirror that evening and you felt different about yourself?
(06:51):
It actually took a while.
It did take a while.
I was very excited the first, you know, month or so.
I think it was probably after maybe a week or so of being on hormones
and then being able to look at myself in the mirror,
looking myself and smiling at myself in the mirror,
and like, looking myself and going,
(07:13):
I love who I'm seeing in the mirror and seeing a woman in the mirror,
even though I did not look anything like a woman.
I mean, I was very much in the very, very early stages, short hair,
five o'clock shadow, all that stuff.
And it was just like, oh my god, I get it now.
This is truly where I'm supposed to be.
(07:34):
And from that moment on, I like looking myself to mirror.
I appreciate the way I look because I know I'm the person I'm supposed to be in.
And I was never that person before, and I never liked that person before.
It was very cathartic.
It was almost spiritual in a way.
And that kind of keeps going till today, you know, three years after I started.
(07:59):
I can relate it to some level, maybe not the same emotional level,
but it was very emotional. I looked in a mirror in a hotel room when I was on the road.
And I said, you know, David Cotton, you were a gay man.
Like, it's up against realization to where I can now, like you,
smiling kind of giggle about it because it feels so good to actually be authentic.
Oh, you actually understand what I think I do.
(08:22):
I start to understand what I think I feel like.
Obviously, a lot of people never get to that point for whatever reason.
And what their authenticity means is different from person to person to person,
but being able to live that and to live it just out and proudly.
And just like not really care about what other people think.
And I'm doing it for myself.
(08:44):
So what is living authentically mean to you? What's it look like?
Oh, I mean, just being...
I can obviously very visibly trans.
You know, I'm still working on getting my look and everything together.
But it's just like, I think people can see my authenticity and my positiveness,
(09:10):
all those kinds of things kind of show through.
And I definitely feel it. I definitely feel it all the time.
More of my interview with Sarah in just a moment.
But first, I'd like to recommend a book, "Trans Bodies Tran Selves,"
edited by Laura Erickson-Schroth.
I learned about this book from a gender transition doula
who offers support services to transgender people, their families,
(09:33):
and anyone exploring the relationship to gender.
The 23 chapters are written by different authors providing their insight and stories on various topics.
Again, the book is "Trans Bodies Trans Selves," edited by Laura Erickson-Schroth.
You're listening to Out Late With David.
Do you feel you get more positives from people when you're out in the wild of the world,
(09:57):
versus negatives, or neutrals?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean, I went through my life-preased transition pretty much with my head lowered
and not making eye contact with people, especially in public.
I would never kind of do that. I just felt awkward.
And now I get so much positivity.
(10:19):
And the thing is, living in the Bay Area, like I'm like 30 miles out the San Francisco,
San Francisco is like, "What if not the best place for queer people? This area is wonderful."
I am happy to say that I have not gotten any in-person comments or threats or anything like that.
(10:40):
And I know that's not what a lot of trans people go through that kind of stuff.
But I'm fortunate because I'm in a place where I accepted people are positive.
And if they're not positive, they don't say anything to me, which I appreciate.
I know I'm not everybody's, cup of tea and everything. That's fun.
(11:02):
But, you know, I don't get negative reactions at all. I really know.
So let's go back to that therapist session.
And now you go home and your partner of now 20 years would have been 25 years at the time.
How do you convey this news to her and then what's your reaction?
You know, honestly, thinking back on it, I don't really remember the conversation.
(11:27):
And I don't know if I told her right away.
I have one very close friend, my friend Miriam, who we've known each other for 40 plus years.
And she was actually the first person I told.
And I don't know how long after that I told my wife whether I told her right away or when exactly.
(11:52):
But we're both always allies at the queer community and she's continued to be an ally.
I appreciate, I appreciate her support.
And you're still to the other today?
We've kind of, it's kind of changed into a kind of a roommate situation.
And, you know, we're, don't really hang out or anything, but we're in the apartment at the same time.
(12:21):
I think in a way our emotional connection has become stronger than it was.
Because it's now we can be almost kind of like girlfriends, you know.
And just kind of talk about things that maybe we didn't talk about before.
But I certainly didn't feel comfortable talking about.
So yeah, it's kind of morphed into this different kind of thing, but it's nice.
(12:46):
How did your friend respond when you told her?
I think there was kind of, you know, there's a shock with everybody, but she was completely supportive from the get-go.
She was just wonderful.
It's like I couldn't have asked for a better friend to kind of go through this and everything with.
And she's seen me through some, I mean, honestly, there haven't been a whole lot of low points during the transition, but she's seen me through a couple of bad portions.
(13:12):
And I love her to death.
I couldn't be more happy that we had reconnected after all those years and everything.
Yeah, she's just 100% behind me.
Great friend, awesome friend.
Any family members?
I have an older brother who lives very close to me.
(13:36):
I let him know and he was supportive.
I grew up in kind of a queer family.
My mom came out as a lesbian when I was like eight years old back in the early 70s.
And my mom always had queer people over her friends, a lot of queer people, a lot of people of color.
So it was very much a, you know, this kind of progressive household and everything.
(14:01):
My middle brother, she's gay.
So it's just like I'm, you know, my whole, all this brother, he's the only, only cis-hatten in the, in the family.
It's just kind of like he was totally, totally fine with it.
We don't have any kids, so there was nothing to, there was no discussions with children or anything like that.
(14:27):
You know, honestly, it's been, it's been very easy to, to come out to people.
Even my older friends and everything, most of them have been positive.
There may have been people that maybe are negative or whatever, but I don't hear from them.
And I realized very early in my transition that if somebody that I knew, even if I knew them for a long time,
(14:52):
but they were going to have a problem with this, that I really didn't need them in my life at this point.
You know, at this age, it's just like I, I have no room for that.
I really have no room for that.
It sounds like healthy boundaries if you needed them, but have it needed them, which is nice.
When some come out later in life, what I've heard from others' report is that they feel a sense of isolation.
(15:15):
Did you experience that at all?
I don't think so.
You know, try to find the community or tribe or whatever label you want to put on it.
I mean, finding my community took a while, but I never really felt isolated because I never really spent any time in the closet.
I mean, I let people know as soon as I know you basically, even at work, my coworkers, my coworkers were absolutely wonderful.
(15:40):
To a person, everybody was super supportive.
My work was super supportive.
You know, they asked if they could, if I wanted, you know, when I changed my, when I picked my new name,
and they said, well, we can't make it your official name on documents, so we can use it internally and everything.
I don't know if I've felt isolated. I felt like I wanted to grow my community and everything, which I've been able to do over the past couple of years.
(16:06):
But as far as isolation goes, no, and definitely not in a negative way.
What you mentioned, the legal documents and things at work, is there a process that you did or need to go through to change gender?
I submitted a legal request for name and gender change, which in California is very easy to do.
(16:28):
They make it very easy for people, trans people especially.
There's a lot of protections in California for trans people that are in other states, uncoarchially.
So you basically petition the court, say, I want to change my gender marker on my legal documents to email.
And the reason was because I already trans woman. There is like a five week period where it gets processed.
(16:55):
And I guess they go through to make sure that there's no sort of like legal reason why you can't change your name.
Like you're not trying to, you know, fool creditors or you have legal back, you know, anything like that.
I didn't need to appear in court five weeks later. They said it was ready, went in, picked up my documentation.
A couple days after that, I went both to Social Security and the DMB and changed it.
(17:21):
And again, those were very, very easy.
As long as I have the court order with me, I was a lot of use of it. I thought it was, which is really nice.
I am Sarah Abrams, a key male.
You mentioned that there are lots of protections in this state. You live in California and that there may not be others.
Do you have any concerns or thoughts on kind of a conservative shift of politics being a threat to LGBTQ+ people?
(17:46):
Oh, absolutely. It's sickening to see what's happening in Republican controlled states.
You know, I thought I came out kind of, you know, middle of 2020.
We have the election. Biden was elected. Trump was out and everything.
I thought this is a great time to be able to transition and be myself and everything.
(18:10):
And then here after that, the backlash just started happening and it was just overwhelming.
It's just like, he states just couldn't wait to find somebody, a new group to demonize where before it's been gay people.
It's been immigrants. It's been people of color.
They're always looking for somebody else to other to make the enemy.
(18:36):
And it's very discouraging.
And I realized that I have privilege because I live in California and I live in a very liberal area of California.
But that, for the most part, is not how trans people live in this country.
A lot of trans people never come out of the closet, never be able to be who they are, never be able to thrive and connect with other queer people.
(19:04):
And have a community that supports them and everything, have a family that supports them.
All these things that I kind of like kind of have taken for granted because it's been relatively easy for me.
So yeah, I'm very concerned.
(19:25):
If you lived in a different state that wasn't as open and affirming as California, do you think you would have followed through?
It's a really good question.
Yeah, I have no idea.
And knowing that my mother came out when I was very young and everything and she didn't really face any sort of backlash for being a lesbian and everything,
(19:46):
you know, that was very powerful too that queer people were just accepted around here.
It wasn't even that they were accepted. It's just your person.
You know, it's not who you are. It's just a part of you.
It's not an issue. It's a fact.
Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, this isn't like, oh, this is my trans friend. This is my friend.
(20:07):
Friend. Right.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back.
(20:29):
You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you and moving forward to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
(20:51):
I know some count I meet somebody and they find out I'm gay. They then go into the, oh, and they're not gay.
They say, oh, I've got this other friend such and such, you know, that's gay.
Do you ever experience things like that when you're meeting someone who?
It's like, I would transfer. Do you know my trans friend is just like, you know, I don't, but I'd really like to know them.
(21:16):
I really would do me because I think it's great for us to like meet and connect.
You know, we're all spread out. We're all through society. We're all over the place. It's not like we're centralized type of thing.
There's fewer of us than most other groups of queer people out there.
So many times I feel like, oh, you have somebody in your life that's trans.
(21:39):
If possible, I'd like to meet them and just introduce myself and see, because we've got a lot of things that we can kind of bond over.
A lot of stories are very different, but we have a lot of similarity too.
So Sarah seems pretty happy, upbeat, comfortable in life. What are your dreams for the future?
Well, I do have goals as far as my transition.
(22:04):
I've three years in transition. Generally speaking is up to five years, although that's it varies from person to person.
Everybody transitions differently. Everybody's transition is valid. What, whatever they decide to do.
There are a couple surgeries that I'm looking forward to do. And then I think I'm being a really good place where my body will more match my vision of myself.
(22:32):
Well, now that you've had this realization and you've transitioned, has that changed the way you look at the world and others?
Yeah, just trying to be more compassionate and empathetic.
Yeah, and it's really easy to do now. Now that I'm living that kind of life and everything authentically, it's so much easier for me to feel that way to other people.
(22:56):
I think Ejuice has a superpower. What do you think your superpower is?
It's kind of funny because I think it really is empathy, compassion, and really caring about people, feeling like I can do something for somebody, empathize with them, or make them laugh, get them out of the moment where they're feeling bad and everything.
(23:21):
That seems to be the thing that I'm actually able to do pretty well.
What's the biggest takeaway from this experience for you?
The biggest takeaway is everybody should transition at least once in their lifetime to see the other half lives.
That is the way to do it.
Okay.
Because you never know who you're up and pizza. No. Well, first of all, it's never too late. It is absolutely never too late.
(23:47):
Do I wish that I could have transitioned when I was 10 years old, pre-curity, whatever?
Part of me says, yeah, but part of me says, you know, realize how hard it would have been, you know? 50 years ago, what you're running into and everything?
My big takeaway is kind of like, I'm not a religious person, I don't have faith, but I'm kind of like, take away is I am where the universe needs me to be right now, and I feel overjoyed at being able to feel that way.
(24:23):
Because I never felt that way before.
So what advice do you have others who might be struggling either with their sexual or gender identity and whether they should come out and address it?
When you're ready to come out, when you're ready to find your authentic self, there is a community out there who will embrace you.
They are out there. Your chosen family is out there. No matter what your friends and your family saying everything, there is a community out there waiting to be there for you.
(24:56):
I had the fortunate opportunity to moderate a panel on coming out and one of the members with someone who had transitioned to identify as they he.
And they are now also a trans-dula. Did you have any experience or have anyone like that that's a trans-dula that helped you through the process?
(25:17):
No, not really. Aside from my therapist, she was very helpful as far as getting me things that I need.
But yeah, I think she was the closest one of that. I didn't meet another, really meet another trans person in person for six months maybe.
Afterwards, who I like everybody had a conversation with and everything. So yeah, she didn't have any trans friends or no, wait until it's at all.
(25:45):
No, as far as I know, I've never really interacted with a trans person in my life that I can remember, you know, on a personal level.
So I know or may have and just did not know that may haven't just not know it.
They were just them. They were just themselves. Exactly. Exactly. So the way it's in and never had a personal interaction with anybody that I need to be trans.
(26:12):
So the one thing I do want to say, but I am kind of disappointed that my mom never got to meet me of Sarah because I think she would have been tickled that I grew up to be a lesbian just like her.
Yeah, it would have been really fun. Well, thank you, Sarah, for your courage to share your story today. I know it's going to touch somebody.
(26:33):
It's going to be somebody's point of light or inspiration as they navigate their own path to their authentic self.
So thank you again for being open and honest and vulnerable today. Thank you.
Thank you, David. It's been wonderful talking to you.
I've heard others say gender transition is not a traditional coming out. I think transitioning is the ultimate coming out and is after all the T and LGBTQ plus.
(26:58):
We should not forget many of the key and transformational events and LGBTQ plus history that are related to the advancement of our queer communities rights strongly intersect if not were initiated by trans activists.
My coming out gay was very destructive to my life and that of my family and some friends. I can't imagine the additional complexities had my coming out been related to my gender and not just my sexual orientation.
(27:26):
As we in this episode, I want to honor the courage it took Sarah and others in the trans community to boldly address what they knew to be their authentic self and take the actions necessary to make it a reality.
See you next time on Outlet with David.
(27:51):
For more episodes, visit outlatewithdavid.com To learn more about David’ life coaching services, visit davidcottoncoaching.com
[Music]
(00:05):
Hi, I'm David Cotton.
I'm a father of brother of son.
I'm a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General,
a former senior executive in the Department of Defense,
a corporate vice president, and now a life coach.
At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,
(00:26):
I'm gay. Join me, as I talk with others,
who've made this coming out journey late in life to become
who they really are.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
My guest today spent most of her life identifying as a man.
And while she never considered herself a member of the LGBTQ+ community,
(00:50):
at age 57, she came out and transitioned from male to female,
while remaining in a relationship with her female partner of 28 years.
Joining me today from San Francisco is Sara Abrams.
[Music]
(01:12):
Sara, welcome to Out Late with David.
Thank you, David. I'm really happy to be here
and I'm really happy to be able to share my story.
When you got married, at the time you identified as a man,
is that correct?
You know, the whole thing about identifying as a man,
but what I like to tell people is, I mean,
it's kind of humorous that I feel it kind of true is,
(01:34):
I was cosplaying as a man, but poorly,
because I didn't know how I was supposed to be in everything.
I didn't have male role models. It was just kind of touching everything.
But yes, at that point, I identified as a heterosexual cis male.
(01:56):
What was the early years of the marriage's life? Were you happy and content?
Well, I mean, honestly, I was never fully comfortable with it,
but I did as best as I could and looking back,
you know, there were kind of warning signs that I wasn't, you know,
maybe the healthiest I could be in the relationship,
(02:20):
mental health problems, you know,
the whole thing about transitioning or being trans,
it never really came up until much, much later,
so that was never the thing.
But I kind of always knew that I was different,
but I never really understood why or how,
until I discovered my true gender.
(02:43):
How are you fulfilling your needs to identify as a woman?
This all happened all at once for me,
realizing that I am trans.
I was 57, I was going through some rough times in my life in a therapy session.
My therapist just kind of asked me about, you know,
(03:08):
what about your sexuality and gender,
and you know, I, the way I've always felt like I had a strong feminine side.
You know, I was always kind of sensitive, I always had female friends,
those were always my close friends, I was never really able to bond with other men
(03:30):
and everything as much as I've been able to bond with women.
So from there, that was kind of like, you know, from saying,
I think I have a very strong female side.
It's just like, oh my god, I'm a woman, I'm trans, it was from there.
There were really very little, if any sort of like clues to this before.
(03:53):
It was never like, I never dreamt of being a girl,
I never, you know, it was never those kind of things.
But I knew somehow I was different.
And that's why I say it's like, cause playing as a guy,
because I wasn't really a guy, but it was just like,
okay, I'm trans, everything made sense.
And it was from there, it was just like, I was off to the race,
it couldn't wait to transition, look back.
(04:15):
Just, one conversation in a therapy session,
will the therapist ask you about your sexual identity and gender identity?
Absolutely.
And it clicked and, you know, she actually came out to me as non-binary person.
(04:37):
I say she because she goes like she, they pronouns.
And actually, I talked to her about a year ago.
So this is a couple years after I started my transition, I said,
so did you have any idea of what was going on with me or is my gender goes?
And she said, well, I thought there was something there, but you can't just come out and ask,
oh, do you think you're a woman?
(04:58):
You know, is that, do you think you're trans?
Cause that would have, I think that, you know, that question is very,
you'd get the sense of that out and everything.
But allowing me to kind of come to that conclusion by myself,
and that she did see something in me.
Wasn't quite sure, again, wasn't quite sure what it was.
But that was the moment.
(05:23):
It was amazing.
It really was amazing.
So what did it feel like to live inside your body before that moment?
Well, you know, as a thing, I never really liked myself.
I never really felt comfortable myself.
My big dysphoria was not being able to look at myself in the mirror.
Not like what I saw and not wanting to, to, to, to,
(05:45):
because it didn't, I don't know if it didn't seem like me or just wasn't comfortable with it,
whatever, I just could not bring myself to look at myself in the mirror.
If I had to call my hair, whatever, I wouldn't make eye contact.
I didn't love myself.
I didn't take care of myself.
I didn't, I wasn't, you know, a great partner.
(06:06):
I wasn't a great friend.
You know, all these kind of things, I was very much alone,
a loner, didn't, never had a lot of friends.
And honestly, just kind of waiting for the, the clock to run out on my life and everything going,
I don't see a future for myself.
I never saw a future for myself.
(06:27):
I never saw goals for myself.
I never saw things to live for.
And that just completely changed as soon as I started, you know,
especially since I started hormones, about a month and a half after,
after I figured everything out.
So what is that transition process like then?
Once you had that realization of therapy session,
did you then look in the mirror that evening and you felt different about yourself?
(06:51):
It actually took a while.
It did take a while.
I was very excited the first, you know, month or so.
I think it was probably after maybe a week or so of being on hormones
and then being able to look at myself in the mirror,
looking myself and smiling at myself in the mirror,
and like, looking myself and going,
(07:13):
I love who I'm seeing in the mirror and seeing a woman in the mirror,
even though I did not look anything like a woman.
I mean, I was very much in the very, very early stages, short hair,
five o'clock shadow, all that stuff.
And it was just like, oh my god, I get it now.
This is truly where I'm supposed to be.
(07:34):
And from that moment on, I like looking myself to mirror.
I appreciate the way I look because I know I'm the person I'm supposed to be in.
And I was never that person before, and I never liked that person before.
It was very cathartic.
It was almost spiritual in a way.
And that kind of keeps going till today, you know, three years after I started.
(07:59):
I can relate it to some level, maybe not the same emotional level,
but it was very emotional. I looked in a mirror in a hotel room when I was on the road.
And I said, you know, David Cotton, you were a gay man.
Like, it's up against realization to where I can now, like you,
smiling kind of giggle about it because it feels so good to actually be authentic.
Oh, you actually understand what I think I do.
(08:22):
I start to understand what I think I feel like.
Obviously, a lot of people never get to that point for whatever reason.
And what their authenticity means is different from person to person to person,
but being able to live that and to live it just out and proudly.
And just like not really care about what other people think.
And I'm doing it for myself.
(08:44):
So what is living authentically mean to you? What's it look like?
Oh, I mean, just being...
I can obviously very visibly trans.
You know, I'm still working on getting my look and everything together.
But it's just like, I think people can see my authenticity and my positiveness,
(09:10):
all those kinds of things kind of show through.
And I definitely feel it. I definitely feel it all the time.
More of my interview with Sarah in just a moment.
But first, I'd like to recommend a book, "Trans Bodies Tran Selves,"
edited by Laura Erickson-Schroth.
I learned about this book from a gender transition doula
who offers support services to transgender people, their families,
(09:33):
and anyone exploring the relationship to gender.
The 23 chapters are written by different authors providing their insight and stories on various topics.
Again, the book is "Trans Bodies Trans Selves," edited by Laura Erickson-Schroth.
You're listening to Out Late With David.
Do you feel you get more positives from people when you're out in the wild of the world,
(09:57):
versus negatives, or neutrals?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean, I went through my life-preased transition pretty much with my head lowered
and not making eye contact with people, especially in public.
I would never kind of do that. I just felt awkward.
And now I get so much positivity.
(10:19):
And the thing is, living in the Bay Area, like I'm like 30 miles out the San Francisco,
San Francisco is like, "What if not the best place for queer people? This area is wonderful."
I am happy to say that I have not gotten any in-person comments or threats or anything like that.
(10:40):
And I know that's not what a lot of trans people go through that kind of stuff.
But I'm fortunate because I'm in a place where I accepted people are positive.
And if they're not positive, they don't say anything to me, which I appreciate.
I know I'm not everybody's, cup of tea and everything. That's fun.
(11:02):
But, you know, I don't get negative reactions at all. I really know.
So let's go back to that therapist session.
And now you go home and your partner of now 20 years would have been 25 years at the time.
How do you convey this news to her and then what's your reaction?
You know, honestly, thinking back on it, I don't really remember the conversation.
(11:27):
And I don't know if I told her right away.
I have one very close friend, my friend Miriam, who we've known each other for 40 plus years.
And she was actually the first person I told.
And I don't know how long after that I told my wife whether I told her right away or when exactly.
(11:52):
But we're both always allies at the queer community and she's continued to be an ally.
I appreciate, I appreciate her support.
And you're still to the other today?
We've kind of, it's kind of changed into a kind of a roommate situation.
And, you know, we're, don't really hang out or anything, but we're in the apartment at the same time.
(12:21):
I think in a way our emotional connection has become stronger than it was.
Because it's now we can be almost kind of like girlfriends, you know.
And just kind of talk about things that maybe we didn't talk about before.
But I certainly didn't feel comfortable talking about.
So yeah, it's kind of morphed into this different kind of thing, but it's nice.
(12:46):
How did your friend respond when you told her?
I think there was kind of, you know, there's a shock with everybody, but she was completely supportive from the get-go.
She was just wonderful.
It's like I couldn't have asked for a better friend to kind of go through this and everything with.
And she's seen me through some, I mean, honestly, there haven't been a whole lot of low points during the transition, but she's seen me through a couple of bad portions.
(13:12):
And I love her to death.
I couldn't be more happy that we had reconnected after all those years and everything.
Yeah, she's just 100% behind me.
Great friend, awesome friend.
Any family members?
I have an older brother who lives very close to me.
(13:36):
I let him know and he was supportive.
I grew up in kind of a queer family.
My mom came out as a lesbian when I was like eight years old back in the early 70s.
And my mom always had queer people over her friends, a lot of queer people, a lot of people of color.
So it was very much a, you know, this kind of progressive household and everything.
(14:01):
My middle brother, she's gay.
So it's just like I'm, you know, my whole, all this brother, he's the only, only cis-hatten in the, in the family.
It's just kind of like he was totally, totally fine with it.
We don't have any kids, so there was nothing to, there was no discussions with children or anything like that.
(14:27):
You know, honestly, it's been, it's been very easy to, to come out to people.
Even my older friends and everything, most of them have been positive.
There may have been people that maybe are negative or whatever, but I don't hear from them.
And I realized very early in my transition that if somebody that I knew, even if I knew them for a long time,
(14:52):
but they were going to have a problem with this, that I really didn't need them in my life at this point.
You know, at this age, it's just like I, I have no room for that.
I really have no room for that.
It sounds like healthy boundaries if you needed them, but have it needed them, which is nice.
When some come out later in life, what I've heard from others' report is that they feel a sense of isolation.
(15:15):
Did you experience that at all?
I don't think so.
You know, try to find the community or tribe or whatever label you want to put on it.
I mean, finding my community took a while, but I never really felt isolated because I never really spent any time in the closet.
I mean, I let people know as soon as I know you basically, even at work, my coworkers, my coworkers were absolutely wonderful.
(15:40):
To a person, everybody was super supportive.
My work was super supportive.
You know, they asked if they could, if I wanted, you know, when I changed my, when I picked my new name,
and they said, well, we can't make it your official name on documents, so we can use it internally and everything.
I don't know if I've felt isolated. I felt like I wanted to grow my community and everything, which I've been able to do over the past couple of years.
(16:06):
But as far as isolation goes, no, and definitely not in a negative way.
What you mentioned, the legal documents and things at work, is there a process that you did or need to go through to change gender?
I submitted a legal request for name and gender change, which in California is very easy to do.
(16:28):
They make it very easy for people, trans people especially.
There's a lot of protections in California for trans people that are in other states, uncoarchially.
So you basically petition the court, say, I want to change my gender marker on my legal documents to email.
And the reason was because I already trans woman. There is like a five week period where it gets processed.
(16:55):
And I guess they go through to make sure that there's no sort of like legal reason why you can't change your name.
Like you're not trying to, you know, fool creditors or you have legal back, you know, anything like that.
I didn't need to appear in court five weeks later. They said it was ready, went in, picked up my documentation.
A couple days after that, I went both to Social Security and the DMB and changed it.
(17:21):
And again, those were very, very easy.
As long as I have the court order with me, I was a lot of use of it. I thought it was, which is really nice.
I am Sarah Abrams, a key male.
You mentioned that there are lots of protections in this state. You live in California and that there may not be others.
Do you have any concerns or thoughts on kind of a conservative shift of politics being a threat to LGBTQ+ people?
(17:46):
Oh, absolutely. It's sickening to see what's happening in Republican controlled states.
You know, I thought I came out kind of, you know, middle of 2020.
We have the election. Biden was elected. Trump was out and everything.
I thought this is a great time to be able to transition and be myself and everything.
(18:10):
And then here after that, the backlash just started happening and it was just overwhelming.
It's just like, he states just couldn't wait to find somebody, a new group to demonize where before it's been gay people.
It's been immigrants. It's been people of color.
They're always looking for somebody else to other to make the enemy.
(18:36):
And it's very discouraging.
And I realized that I have privilege because I live in California and I live in a very liberal area of California.
But that, for the most part, is not how trans people live in this country.
A lot of trans people never come out of the closet, never be able to be who they are, never be able to thrive and connect with other queer people.
(19:04):
And have a community that supports them and everything, have a family that supports them.
All these things that I kind of like kind of have taken for granted because it's been relatively easy for me.
So yeah, I'm very concerned.
(19:25):
If you lived in a different state that wasn't as open and affirming as California, do you think you would have followed through?
It's a really good question.
Yeah, I have no idea.
And knowing that my mother came out when I was very young and everything and she didn't really face any sort of backlash for being a lesbian and everything,
(19:46):
you know, that was very powerful too that queer people were just accepted around here.
It wasn't even that they were accepted. It's just your person.
You know, it's not who you are. It's just a part of you.
It's not an issue. It's a fact.
Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, this isn't like, oh, this is my trans friend. This is my friend.
(20:07):
Friend. Right.
You're listening to Out Late with David.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.
Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back.
(20:29):
You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you and moving forward to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
(20:51):
I know some count I meet somebody and they find out I'm gay. They then go into the, oh, and they're not gay.
They say, oh, I've got this other friend such and such, you know, that's gay.
Do you ever experience things like that when you're meeting someone who?
It's like, I would transfer. Do you know my trans friend is just like, you know, I don't, but I'd really like to know them.
(21:16):
I really would do me because I think it's great for us to like meet and connect.
You know, we're all spread out. We're all through society. We're all over the place. It's not like we're centralized type of thing.
There's fewer of us than most other groups of queer people out there.
So many times I feel like, oh, you have somebody in your life that's trans.
(21:39):
If possible, I'd like to meet them and just introduce myself and see, because we've got a lot of things that we can kind of bond over.
A lot of stories are very different, but we have a lot of similarity too.
So Sarah seems pretty happy, upbeat, comfortable in life. What are your dreams for the future?
Well, I do have goals as far as my transition.
(22:04):
I've three years in transition. Generally speaking is up to five years, although that's it varies from person to person.
Everybody transitions differently. Everybody's transition is valid. What, whatever they decide to do.
There are a couple surgeries that I'm looking forward to do. And then I think I'm being a really good place where my body will more match my vision of myself.
(22:32):
Well, now that you've had this realization and you've transitioned, has that changed the way you look at the world and others?
Yeah, just trying to be more compassionate and empathetic.
Yeah, and it's really easy to do now. Now that I'm living that kind of life and everything authentically, it's so much easier for me to feel that way to other people.
(22:56):
I think Ejuice has a superpower. What do you think your superpower is?
It's kind of funny because I think it really is empathy, compassion, and really caring about people, feeling like I can do something for somebody, empathize with them, or make them laugh, get them out of the moment where they're feeling bad and everything.
(23:21):
That seems to be the thing that I'm actually able to do pretty well.
What's the biggest takeaway from this experience for you?
The biggest takeaway is everybody should transition at least once in their lifetime to see the other half lives.
That is the way to do it.
Okay.
Because you never know who you're up and pizza. No. Well, first of all, it's never too late. It is absolutely never too late.
(23:47):
Do I wish that I could have transitioned when I was 10 years old, pre-curity, whatever?
Part of me says, yeah, but part of me says, you know, realize how hard it would have been, you know? 50 years ago, what you're running into and everything?
My big takeaway is kind of like, I'm not a religious person, I don't have faith, but I'm kind of like, take away is I am where the universe needs me to be right now, and I feel overjoyed at being able to feel that way.
(24:23):
Because I never felt that way before.
So what advice do you have others who might be struggling either with their sexual or gender identity and whether they should come out and address it?
When you're ready to come out, when you're ready to find your authentic self, there is a community out there who will embrace you.
They are out there. Your chosen family is out there. No matter what your friends and your family saying everything, there is a community out there waiting to be there for you.
(24:56):
I had the fortunate opportunity to moderate a panel on coming out and one of the members with someone who had transitioned to identify as they he.
And they are now also a trans-dula. Did you have any experience or have anyone like that that's a trans-dula that helped you through the process?
(25:17):
No, not really. Aside from my therapist, she was very helpful as far as getting me things that I need.
But yeah, I think she was the closest one of that. I didn't meet another, really meet another trans person in person for six months maybe.
Afterwards, who I like everybody had a conversation with and everything. So yeah, she didn't have any trans friends or no, wait until it's at all.
(25:45):
No, as far as I know, I've never really interacted with a trans person in my life that I can remember, you know, on a personal level.
So I know or may have and just did not know that may haven't just not know it.
They were just them. They were just themselves. Exactly. Exactly. So the way it's in and never had a personal interaction with anybody that I need to be trans.
(26:12):
So the one thing I do want to say, but I am kind of disappointed that my mom never got to meet me of Sarah because I think she would have been tickled that I grew up to be a lesbian just like her.
Yeah, it would have been really fun. Well, thank you, Sarah, for your courage to share your story today. I know it's going to touch somebody.
(26:33):
It's going to be somebody's point of light or inspiration as they navigate their own path to their authentic self.
So thank you again for being open and honest and vulnerable today. Thank you.
Thank you, David. It's been wonderful talking to you.
I've heard others say gender transition is not a traditional coming out. I think transitioning is the ultimate coming out and is after all the T and LGBTQ plus.
(26:58):
We should not forget many of the key and transformational events and LGBTQ plus history that are related to the advancement of our queer communities rights strongly intersect if not were initiated by trans activists.
My coming out gay was very destructive to my life and that of my family and some friends. I can't imagine the additional complexities had my coming out been related to my gender and not just my sexual orientation.
(27:26):
As we in this episode, I want to honor the courage it took Sarah and others in the trans community to boldly address what they knew to be their authentic self and take the actions necessary to make it a reality.
See you next time on Outlet with David.
(27:51):
For more episodes, visit outlatewithdavid.com To learn more about David’ life coaching services, visit davidcottoncoaching.com
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.