Shaun Williams - founder of Gay Fathers Worldwide and Bent Couch Counselling - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Watch the video version of this podcast at outlaidwithdavid.com

(00:04):
Hi, I'm David Caden. I'm a father, a brother, a son. I'm a retired U.S. Air Force
Brigadier General, a former senior executive in the Department of Defense, a corporate
vice president, and now a life coach. At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world,

(00:30):
I'm gay. Join me, as I talk with others, who've made this coming out journey late in life
to become who they really are. You're listening to Outlaidwithdavid.
After 25 years of marriage, my guest today, a former construction worker, came out to his

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wife and four children. And since then, he's become a licensed counselor, formed a support
group called Gay Fathers Worldwide, and has now engaged to be married. This time to a man.
Joining us from Melbourne, Australia, Sean Williams.

(01:13):
Sean, thanks for joining us today. It's a cold winter day in Iowa. I hope it's warmer
and sunnier in Melbourne. It's a little bit nicer, David, but it's only 27 degrees. I'm not
sure what that is in Fahrenheit. I mean, the 60s, I believe. Yeah, that's not really warm,

(01:34):
but warmer than 27 Fahrenheit that I'm experiencing right now. It's great to be here, David. Thanks
for having me. You grew up in the 80s. What was it like at that time in Australia for gay
people? It was pretty much the same as I believe around the world. There was a lot of
gay bashing aids, it was prevalent. It was a time where I was teased at school or I was bullied

(01:59):
at school for being a little bit different. That was really challenging. It was a really
challenging time. The 80s were where I taught myself how to talk deeper, how to walk properly,
how to walk like a man. It was an interesting time in my growth. It was a challenging time

(02:21):
to me. When did you first know the juror date? I knew when I was about five. I remember when
I was being five, I was attracted to my mum and dad had a friend over a couple over and
he was in his dressing gown. I remember thinking, "That's very nice." I remember thinking,
"No one's ever going to know that I feel this way." I always knew I was different. There

(02:46):
was always a challenge there and I'd always ask myself, "Why am I different?" You got married
in the late 90s, I recall. Yeah, 95, I was married. How do you redact the decision then
to get married? My ex-wife now, she was my best friend. We hear this really commonly
with a lot of men that we did love our wives. We loved the connection. We loved the connection.

(03:16):
We loved the interaction. Our wives found something in us that I think they couldn't find
another men. I always say to people that are coming out, "We are unique." We are also
higher achievers and people pleases. I remember getting married and I remember thinking on the

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day I'm going to the grave with my secret because I don't want to hurt my family. I didn't
want to hurt my friends. I certainly didn't want to hurt my wife. She was my best friend. I remember
the day having photos taken, thinking, "Perhaps I need to stop this." The ball was rolling and

(04:05):
I was mentally already struggling. How heavy did that wheat feel at the time? It was very heavy.
It was very heavy. I had a great day. Our marriage was amazing. In our 24 or 24 or almost 25 years
of marriage, we had amazing time together. We had some great laughs. We had some great time.

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There was always that weight. It may have been emphasized when we watched a movie about a
gay couple or you saw an attractive man and you tried not to make it obvious that you were attracted.

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Then she would say things like, "Let's go and watch this gay comedy." I'm thinking that's the
last thing I want to do because it's quite triggering. We would go and do those sorts of things.
Every time that happened, I would get that pang of guilt and shame. It became a heavy weight.

(05:14):
How did you deal with that pang of guilt and shame when you get that?
I would just keep bearing it deeper and deeper. As I think a lot of us know, mentally, we do some
damage. We do a lot of damage by hiding our true selves. We do damage in damage. It takes a lot of

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time to reverse. We are hurt and we're hurting ourselves. For me, I put on this three-foot mask of
what I tell people. I was kind of gay to myself. I knew what the thoughts were in my head,
but I didn't connect the dots. I didn't know if it was slow or stupid.
I know that just in denial is probably a better way to put it, not wanting to be the way.

(06:01):
It was denying that. Be the loving husband who cares about his wife. Best friend, great memories.
I don't regret any of the time I spent together. I just regret the pain it caused
true when I came out because that was not my intent, but I had to live to survive.
It's the last thing we ever want to do is hurt anybody. We don't want to hurt anyone. We don't

(06:25):
want to break. We don't come into this world wanting to hurt a single soul. We know that
talking to other men, that we do hurt people. We break hearts. It is, we have to face the reality that
we are living a lie. It is a lie. It does hurt people. I think once we come to the realization that

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we've made mistakes and you simply need to put one foot in front of the other and start rectifying
the mistakes and start letting your true life and start doing what you and I are doing,
reaching out, reaching out, telling men that on the other side, you can actually be your true self.
You can actually help. I quite often talk a lot about my legacy and someone said to me,

(07:18):
one day, they said your legacy was to actually come out and help other men. When I heard that,
I thought, finally, I have a place in this world and that was like a lightning bolt for me.
At that time, even when I set up the group in 2020, that was not my intention. I just needed

(07:41):
other people to talk to. I know what I think back in five years, I didn't think I'd be around today.
Where it's all about outreach and service to share the stories, to help men that were like you and me.
They're there today and so we're here for it.
Yeah. I was on a television show here almost two years ago just talking about my story.

(08:05):
And when I started in my business, I had a phone call and it was about 12 months after
the television show aired and he said to me, it's taken me 12 months to have the courage to call you.
But the day I saw you was the day I was going to commit suicide.

(08:26):
And I was and he said, and you stopped it because and so that is so powerful to me.
That speaks volumes. If we can stop one man from going down that dark and desperate,
lonely path, then our job is far bigger and greater than we'd ever expected.

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I've had that same communication from listeners actually that said, I'm alive because I found
your podcast and I found you. I'm going so powerful. It ups the responsibility level on our side of service.
But I think it puts it into perspective that people need connection and they need to know that there's

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other people out in this world just like them that saw no hope. And yet they found joy on the other side
went through a whole bunch to get there, but there was joy in there.
So yeah, for kids, which is a pretty sizable family and a real commitment.
How much did that weigh down on you and affect the turmoil that you're feeling about coming out?

(09:33):
The kids actually filled up the gap, filled up the gap because it was so much to do with the children.
And as a perfectionist and a people pleaser, I was there trying to do everything for the kids as well.
So I filled another gap and filled that that either thinking that we often do.

(09:57):
It wasn't until my oldest child, she was 16. She's now 20, 21, almost 22.
She came out and I remember sitting next to her thinking, you're coming out and I want to be there for you.
And I'm incredibly sad that I can't be true to myself so I can be there for you.

(10:25):
And then interestingly, when I came out, two of my other children have now identified as queer as well.
So I had the four, there's three queer children. And that's been fantastic, but it's also challenging
in its own right as well. One's non-binary and two of the Malaysians.

(10:49):
So there's been lots of learning, lots of learning for me, but also great that I can be really open
with my children now. I can talk to them openly about their journey, about difficulties they're having.
And of course I'll always be the day you're dead, but that goes without fame.

(11:11):
But there are times when I can connect with them on a level that is in the part of the community.
Did your daughter's coming out, motivates you at all, or inspire you to do that yourself?
It didn't inspire me. It didn't inspire me. And we were already, my wife and I were already having some

(11:32):
difficulties. And it was a really challenging time. So it was part of the, part of the
the journey was hearing my eldest daughter coming out at 16. It was very powerful for me.
More of my interview was Sean in just a moment. But first, instead of recommending a book,

(11:54):
I recommend joining the private Facebook group called Gay Fathers Worldwide.
Today's guest created this group after his own coming out when he couldn't find a safe space
to share his thoughts, experiences, and emotions related to his own coming out as a father and
husband. To find the group on Facebook, search for Gay Fathers Worldwide. As a gay father myself,

(12:15):
I am a member of this group and can attest to the value and support of being a member of this
community of 800 men on six continents. The group is moderated to ensure the discussions aligned
with the group's purposes. Again, search for Gay Fathers Worldwide on Facebook. It is a resource
that is easily accessible on your mobile phone or computer. For more books and online resources

(12:35):
about coming out late in life, visit outlaywithdavid.com. Now back to more of my conversation with Sean.
You said you intended to go to the grave with this secret, the fact that you're gay. Did you really
believe you could die without anybody else finding out? Yeah, I did. I did. I went, it's interesting. I
talk about I have a mental health psychologist that I say that I've been saying why before I even

(13:02):
came out and he's become a really good, reliable therapist for me and I still see him. But I remember
going to him for about two years and I went in because I was feeling depression and anxiety.
And I wanted to deal with that. I just didn't realize that I'd eventually, the only way I could

(13:23):
really deal with what I was dealing with is by coming out. And when I eventually said to him,
I'm gay, that's when the real work really started. So he was the first one that I told. But before
that I was going to the grave, I was not going to tell a single soul. So how did that then progress

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after you said I am gay, you know, actually putting in words in the air and to somebody else's ear,
how did that affect you and shift then the whole process? So when I told him, he actually swore at me.
He swore at me because he was shocked. He wasn't expecting it at all. And we still laugh about it

(14:06):
because he said, right, and after he saw it, he said, right, now we're going to start working on
the process forward. And the following day I met with my wife and we went for a walk. And I told her
that I was gay. We walked for about three hours along the beach in Melbourne here. And it was December

(14:27):
2019. And yeah, we had a big discussion and she was obviously hurt. But I knew that I had to keep
the that momentum rolling. I couldn't keep living the way I was living, which was living with

(14:48):
depression, anxiety, sadness, anger. I wasn't being true to who I was.
And so we walked for about two hours. We talked. We cried. And then we discussed how we would tell the
children. And I said, I would because I was living outside the home for a period of time. I said,

(15:14):
I'd like to come and talk to them the following day. So it progressed really quickly.
So I sat down that night and I pinned them a letter in case I didn't didn't tell them everything
I wanted to tell them. So I pinned them a letter that I was going to leave with them. And I did
leave the letter with them after I told them. But we sat them down. And I remember my children just

(15:40):
saying, "Wait, glad you're home. When are you coming home?" And I said, I'm your mum and I met
yesterday and I'm not coming home. And the rest I'm not coming home is because I'm okay. And I need
to sort out my life. I need to sort out what I've done and what's going to happen from here.

(16:01):
That was probably one of the most difficult days of my life. My children were
sad, unconcullable. My youngest were nine and twelve. And it broke my heart. It broke my heart. I
eventually I didn't know what to do, but I knew I needed to leave them to grieve.

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My wife was angry and my children were sad. And I had to leave. And I felt like my heart had been
wrenched from me. And it was such sadness and sorrow and guilt and shame. And I thought to myself,

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what have I done? Why have I done this? It was heartbreaking. It was awful. And just looking back
even today, it still just makes me so sad that I had to get to that. But
I look back now and I probably like yourself. And and where I am now, I feel like I've got so much

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more control back in my life. I feel comfortable with who I am. I can say to people, I am a gay man,
I love him. I'm engaged to a man. I have a relationship with my children now. I have, you know,
I often say I'm actually a bit of father now. Because I'm present. I'm present.

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Interesting. And there's still some difficulties with the children and my ex-wife. But
you have, you know, you can't keep pushing them down. You can't keep suppressing everything.
And people quite often say, you know, the more you, you know, one lie becomes another lie becomes
another lie. But it's snowballs out of control. I feel now that I'm I'm juggling a little pebble.

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If that makes sense, it's not the snowball. So the pebble is just what I have to deal with on a daily
basis. And when I'm talking to men, you know, that are in that space that are just coming out. And a lot
of my clients are in that space. They reach out to me. And I say, the snowball will crush you.

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And it really does just crush you because you you can't see what the other side's like. And you
frightened. No one, no one likes uncertainty. But I think when they start to see your story, my story,
men on our group story, they start to go, they start to believe there's there's another side. There's

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a, you can be happy. You can start to live how you're supposed to live, not hide it.
Beautiful story. Thank you for sharing all of that. And what you went through, do you have any regrets
the way you came out or the way it transpired? And you might redo it if you could?
I perhaps wouldn't have done it as quickly. I felt like I had a responsibility to do it quickly.

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But perhaps I would have sort of stepped back. It did do a, it I did a lot in a really short period of time.
From, you know, from leaving the home because my wife and I were fighting and a couple of days later
meeting the wife and then coming out to my children, it was really quick. It was, it was, it was like

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pulling off a band-aid. And I think perhaps I speak to men now about having a safety, a safety net or
just thinking about, I hadn't thought about where I was living. I hadn't thought about, you know,
we, a safe space for me. I hadn't thought about what my friends would say. So I hadn't worked through

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all of that. So what I do is a lot of men now is I work through that safe, creating that safety
space first, creating that really steady foundation. So when I came out, I felt like I just pulled the
rug out from everyone and walked away almost like, you know, one of those movies where you walk away,

(20:30):
the plane explodes behind you. That's what I felt like I had done. And so I teach, I work with men now
about having a plan and how to do it so that you're looking after yourself. I wasn't, I don't think I
looked after myself. I think, you know, I know I started drinking straight after that because that was

(20:54):
my way of dealing with the pain. And I didn't know where to turn to. I didn't, you know, apart from my
psychologist, which was once a, you know, once a four night, that hour would go really quickly. And
then I would be left to my own devices. I'm not knowing who to talk to, where to go. I didn't have

(21:17):
a safety net. And so I teach men now, learn from other men, talk to other men, reach out to the community.
And I just think that's really important just to find a really safe, non-judgmental space where
you can talk. And whether that's a counselor that's been through what you've been through or a group

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of men, but back then I couldn't find anything. And I, there was probably hundreds of groups to be
honest, but I couldn't find what I was looking for. And now I've found, when my process, I found the
husbands out to wise organization. And then there's gamma, which I did not interact much with. And I
was fortunate. I had a local group of men called the mankind project. It was a local group where you

(22:04):
can be open and vulnerable. But I agree you've got to have friends and connections in a safe person.
I had a confidant, which helped me. But also, I learned in talking to other men and my own experience,
is the spouse, thinking about the safety net the spouse has to be able to talk to
and relieve some of that tension and pressure. And know that when you come out to them, you don't

(22:28):
bring them into the closet with you. I wouldn't recommend that. You've got to give them permission to say,
talk to them, whoever you need to. Maybe you agree between the two of you, who that is, that population,
depending on where you are in the process. So they can feel safe as well.
Absolutely. It's about connection and understanding that you're not going through this alone.

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There are other people that have been through it. So those kinds of resources are really powerful
for the spouse as well. So now that you're personally out, the question comes as, how did the gay
community accept you? Did you worry that since you were so late in life that you would be a
friend, people, and the truth is out. It's really interesting actually because when I came out, I obviously

(23:14):
was reaching out and I reached out on social media to some private groups and I reached out
online to some private groups. And I'm a real storyteller. So if I reach out to a group, I'll tell
them my story. My story, I'd hidden that for so long. I needed to tell the world my story.

(23:36):
For the mountain top. Absolutely. What I didn't expect was the community was a little bit harsh.
I found a lot of men very judgmental, very angry that I had had children and I was coming out.
I came across some very angry individuals and I was taken aback and I was,

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I was, this isn't there. This is the community. I want to be a part of and you're pushing me away
because I have children. I'm telling you, I'm a gay man. I want to be part of your community.
There was a lot of anger. So I was reaching out to everyone that was angry with me.
And then I started to understand. Some of these people want children. Some of these people

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have been out all their lives. They've lost friends to, they've lost friends along the way.
So then I started to understand where their anger was coming from. So some of these men are still
really great mates. They've really taught me a lot. Well, Kudos for you to actually having the courage

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to continue the conversation in a positive way. Instead of just assuming and moving on.
Yeah. I think more importantly for me, it was about not defending myself, but I wanted to
understand their point of view. But I think it's a wonderful community. And that's why I wanted to work
in the community. It's why I made the very line to work with the community.

(25:12):
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map
a course to achieve the things you really want. Together we're all online, those persistent
self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable

(25:33):
goals. Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward
to discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
You're listening to Outlate with David.

(25:55):
So I think that coming out late in life is a kind of a special category of coming out.
From your perspective, how is that experience different for the man who come out
after decades of marriage compared to those that came out, you know, teens, 20s?
I have a real passion for the men that come out later in life. It's beautiful to see a man

(26:19):
actually saying, "I'm guy, I have children. I've made some mistakes that I'm happy now."
Let's talk about the gay father's worldwide. How did that come about? Are most of the men in that
group formally married or are there gay couples who have adopted, surrogacy? What is the mix of the

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group and also, but first, the genesis for you to create it? Because it didn't exist when I was coming
out. When I came out, I hopped on the grinder and I met another father. This was just as COVID,
I was just hitting in Melbourne. I talked to him online and he was a wonderful connection. All

(27:06):
of a sudden, this man understood me. Then he talked about another man that had children.
So, just before the major lockdowns here in Melbourne, we all caught up and we went for a walk.
This walk would have, I think, we walked around Melbourne for about five hours just talking.
This was September 2020. We were continually going for walks and just talking in a safe space,

(27:39):
talking about our experiences, talking about who we are. That connection with these two fathers
was incredible. I'd never felt such close friendship. I could talk to them about anything I was feeling.
There wasn't anything I couldn't talk to them about. I thought, "My goodness, me." Then I said to them,

(28:02):
I said, "I'd love to start a private Facebook group." Then we were walking the next day and I
said, "I've set the group up." It's already got a dozen men from around the world.
Oh my. I'd set up some real parameters about it being a safe space and that you had to answer
some questions. I basically made sure that these were men that were in the same boat as me.

(28:29):
So, they had been in a heterosexual relationship and had children from that relationship.
So, all of a sudden, we had these men talking around the world and then COVID hit and
hit pretty hard in Melbourne. Then we decided that we would start running monthly Zoom

(28:51):
connection calls. It now has over, I'm proud to say, it has over 800 members. It just keeps getting
bigger and bigger. So, I think last time we looked, it's about 45% Americans, 30% Australians. We've got
Canada, Europe. It's all over the world. Have you noticed any trends of the children of gay men

(29:18):
that the children have in common? We've actually noticed a lot of the children
diverse and many of them come out as gay or come out as queer. The children, I think, see that their
fathers as heartbroken as they are have had the courage to come out. There are some really sad stories

(29:44):
about children that are no longer being in contact with their fathers or they've been separated.
But then you hear wonderful stories about men that haven't had contact for many years. I know all the
sudden their children are having children and all of a sudden they're brought back in to be the
grandfather. Those are beautiful stories. But there are, you know, like anything, there's some heart

(30:08):
breaking stories about men whose children have deserted them completely. How old their ex-wife has
chosen not to speak to them again? There are a lot of queer children. I had that same experience
like you as well. Yeah. And it's really exciting. A friend of mine, he posted his highlights of 2023.

(30:33):
He was a strange from his family and a child had a grandchild and he's holding this new baby in
his arms in 2023. That's beautiful. I tell people to come to me, I said, the first reaction you get
made it positive, it may be positive, but play the long game. The changes, it's not a positive at first.
Just we'll go play, take the high road because it has the potential to change to where the

(30:59):
relationship will come back if it's important to you. If you want it to repair, then you've got to do
the work and do your part and be patient. Yeah, you do. And I think that's really interesting. It's
to be patient. It won't happen overnight, but I think if you can just show the world, be present in the
moment as you are. This is exactly who I am. And the children one day will understand they will come back.

(31:28):
I would agree. I would agree. I've learned so much about myself as a human being.
Oh my goodness, I just did. I'm so glad. So let's talk about what your new life, what's up?
You mentioned before that you're maybe getting married again. Yeah, so I, one of those dads that I met
originally, when we were walking, he and I just, it was magic. I can't express to you,

(32:00):
I've never in my whole life been able to talk about anything openly. And so, and when I met him,
I was working in construction. And construction was being really struggling with my job. Everything
sort of imploded to me all at once. My marriage coming out, my work. And so there was lots of

(32:25):
questions for me when I met my partner and I was struggling with, with work as well. And he said,
well, now's the perfect time to study. I said, oh yeah, why not try that into the fix as well? Why not?
You know, that's a great idea. And I sort of flippantly threw that off. But then the sea was planted.

(32:45):
And I remember being at work going, I'm making lots of money, but I'm incredibly unhappy.
And I thought, okay, so there was a couple of situations where I was, you know, I was actually
being bullied at work because I'd come out. And I thought, okay, this is, this is a sign that I need to

(33:11):
start making some changes. So I, my partner thankfully, I said to him, okay, I'm going to study.
Yeah. Sort of been couched then, counseling come out of that studying and doing.
Yes. Yeah, it did. So I knew then that I wanted to work with the LGBTQIA plus community. And,

(33:33):
yeah, I've been in business now. I remember October 2022, I opened the doors and it was, you know,
clients started coming through and it was what, as I expected, men reaching out
that were going through a similar situation to myself. So it's just been over 12 months.
But every day is wonderful. Every, I love my job. I come, you know, I can be dealing with the hardest

(33:59):
of life situations. But I love the connection. I love meeting new people. I love
talking to people about their journeys because what I see, even when someone's so broken and sad,
by working with them for a period of time and that might be a couple of months, that might be a

(34:22):
couple of weeks, that might be, you know, it might be 12 months. I love saying the turn around. I love
saying that the end, what the end product, because now it ever comes to an end of the product.
But I love seeing their journey and I, and there are times when we, some of my clients, we reflect on
when they arrived and we look at the journey and I say, can you imagine being where you are now

(34:51):
and people are just overwhelmed? They love the journey. And so I love, I come down, I'm upstairs in
in my house here and sometimes I float down the stairs because I just, and my partner just says,
you just, you look so light. Like you've dealt with people's issues all day. And I come down and I

(35:11):
feel like my buckets being filled because I'm helping other people. I didn't realize the power
of helping others. You're living the joyful purpose that you're undoclinered for. You didn't realize
until now. Yeah. You're blessed as they say. You're blessed. Yeah. I want to tell men, you're not broken.

(35:33):
You're loved. You know, you will find connection. I talk to a lot of men who lose friends and they lose,
you know, they lose family, they lose friends when they come out, but they find connection. There is
life after coming out. The hardest part is to say, I'm gay and then start dealing with it.

(35:54):
That's the biggest step. And if I can help and like yourself, if we could help one man just realize
that it's okay to be gay, it's okay to have those feelings to be sexually attracted to me.
Then our job's done. Well, Sean Williams, thank you so much for being here today.

(36:16):
A fantastic conversation. I know this will touch people that we don't even know or out there.
We may never hear from them, but they'll be comforted to knowing as you said, they're just themselves.
And there's a community out there that loves them. Absolutely.
Coming out can be a lonely and isolating experience. It is natural and normal to feel scared and

(36:39):
unsure of what the future holds. As Sean emphasizes, it is important to have a safe space to share
and explore our emotions with the others who have had similar situation.
Through his own coming out, he saw such a need and created the gay father's worldwide community
on Facebook as a safe space to meet other men with common experiences. Just knowing others have

(37:01):
traveled the same path and found a comfortable, if not joyful place in future, can be powerful and reassuring.
As we talked about in previous episodes, for the Clause of the Gay Man, isolation is our worst
enemy. In addition to seeking help from a therapist, coach or friend, finding a community of
others can help break the isolation as well as provide the insight from others and hopefully realize

(37:24):
there's the potential for a positive future even on the darkest days. That's it for now. Join us
next time on Outlate with David. To hear more episodes, visit Outlate with David.com.
And to learn more about personal life coaching services, go to DavidCottenCoaching.com.

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Shaun Williams - founder of Gay Fathers Worldwide and Bent Couch Counselling

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Shaun Williams - founder of Gay Fathers Worldwide and Bent Couch Counselling