Wayne Scott - Redefining Marriage: A Journey Through Non-Monogamy

Summary  

In this conversation, Wayne Scott shares his journey through a mixed orientation marriage, detailing the challenges and transformations he and his wife faced. They navigated the complexities of identity, love, and commitment, ultimately redefining their relationship through non-monogamy. Wayne emphasizes the importance of communication, patience, and the willingness to adapt as individuals grow over time. His story serves as a testament to the possibility of creating a fulfilling partnership that honors both personal and shared desires.  

Keywords  

mixed orientation marriage, non-monogamy, relationships, LGBTQ+, marriage advice, communication, love story, personal growth, therapy, bisexuality, coming out, LGBTQ+  

Takeaways  

• Mixed orientation marriages can thrive without ending in divorce.
• Communication is key in navigating relationship challenges.
• Non-monogamy can be a viable option for some couples.
• Patience is essential when exploring new relationship dynamics.
• It's important to redefine what marriage means to you.
• Love can persist through difficult transitions in a relationship.
• Couples can create their own rules for their relationship.
• Support from a therapist can facilitate difficult conversations.
• Children can adapt to their parents' non-traditional relationships.
• Personal growth is a continuous journey within a marriage.

Sound Bites  

• "It doesn't always end in divorce."
• "A new idea turned his marriage into a love story."
• "Your marriage can be whatever you want it to be."
• "It's okay to take a couple years to figure it out."
• "It can be whatever you want it to be."
• "They chose to break the rules and norms of society."

Audio Chapters  

00:00 Navigating Mixed Orientation Marriages
09:50 The Shift to Non-Monogamy
20:01 Lessons Learned from Non-Traditional Relationships  

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YouTube Channel:   https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvsthP9yClKI4o5LxbuQnOg  

Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton:  https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com  

Contact me:  mailto:[e-mail]  

© 2025 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved. The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
[Music]

(00:11):
You're listening to Outlet with David. True Star is of coming out later in life.
And now, here's your host, David Cun.
When one partner in a marriage is straight and the other is not,
it doesn't always end in divorce. Some couples choose what's known as a mixed
orientation marriage. My guest today is a psychotherapist who did exactly that.

(00:34):
He started his marriage fully monogamous, but 15 years in, things fell apart.
Today we'll find out how a new idea turned his marriage into a love story.
Joining us today from his home in Portland, Oregon, Wayne Scott.
[Music]
A hello, Wayne, and thank you for being here today at Outlet with David.

(00:55):
Thank you, David. Thanks for inviting me.
Glad to have you. You've got a new book that's coming out, and today we're going to talk about
mixed orientation marriage. Many of our viewers, they struggle coming out later in life and trying
to think what options they have in their life. Do I stay married? How do I stay married?
How that all works? But let's talk about you first before we do that, and get into that.

(01:17):
When you got married, very bluntly, did you know your gay or bisexual?
Or did you discover that later?
Yeah, I came out at a very tricky time to come out. I came out in the mid to late 80s in the darkest
period of the AIDS pandemic, and I knew at that time that I was bisexual. That's what I had told my

(01:38):
mother when I came out to her, when I was in my teens. But really, but that word bisexual,
it wasn't, it had a real pejorative stigma attached to it, right? People were suspicious of it.
The sexual identity politics in that time, if you recall, very, very polarized, and bisexuals in
particular were seen as the people who were going to bring the virus to the straight community.

(02:02):
So it wasn't a label that you used with pride or affirmation. I tended in the early days. Before
I met wife, I tended to describe myself as gay, even though, behaviorally, I was seeing both men
and women. That I think is already developmentally. That's what you do. At that age, you're feeling

(02:24):
around different possibilities, different types of relationships. When I first asked my spouse out
on a date, her first reaction was that she went to her girlfriends with us, like, "Why is this a gay guy
asking me on a date?" And in consulting with one of her mutual friends, she found out, "Oh no,
he actually is one of those guys who dates men and women." She was a little intrigued by that too,

(02:48):
because at the time she was identified very strongly as a feminist, as a woman who was interested in
men who did not fit the traditional mold. A lot of ways, in some way, that kind of made me more
attractive to her, I would say. So she rationalized that just because of the edge of who you were
in the time it was? A little bit. A little bit. One of the other interesting thing is,

(03:12):
prior to dating my spouse, I had, I think, two or three boyfriends of nine months to a year,
a short undergraduate relationship. But we never talked about monogamy. That was never on the table.
But during that time period, to be non-monogamous was becoming increasingly risky endeavor.

(03:33):
And I had had, in 1987, I had a very scary HIV scare, where a previous boyfriend was diagnosed with
AIDS. I had to go through the process of figuring out what my status was. In that era, the weight was
really, really long. The tests were not super accurate. And it was just nerve-wracking.

(03:54):
And so at the end of that experience, I was really clear that I did not want to be fully
around as much as I'd been up to that point. And that just so happened to coincide with when I met
my spouse and we had been dating for about a month, she said, "You know, given what everything that's
going on in the world, if we're going to be dating, I want us to be monogamous."
When she said, "I want us to be monogamous," that? I wanted to be monogamous. And for me, in my

(04:19):
frame of reference, that was news that that was something people talked about. Like, I was like,
"What a concept of." I really thought about that or heard about that. But I mean, I adored her.
I was crazy about her. And it also felt very safe after what I had been through. It felt like a

(04:41):
this, what a good idea that she's come up with. I would not have to worry about HIV.
And we would be a little bit, we would be this little protected container.
And did you feel that you could stay on that path and monogamy in that marriage as you move forward?
Yeah. As a 28-year-old, I thought I could do anything. And over time, it just wasn't enough.

(05:04):
Over time, we changed. People do change over the course of a marriage. We got older. We had three kids.
We went through a huge, long struggle with infertility in all the different tests and treatments
they have to do for that. And that took the whole whammy on your text life.
And I think about 14, 15 years in, I wasn't the same person I was at 28. And I really felt very deeply

(05:32):
and desperately like I had lost some very important part of myself that I'd forgotten who I was almost.
And the thing is, and the thing is, I'm not, and this I know is going to be familiar to many of your
listeners. I didn't have a way of talking about that with my spouse that wasn't me asking for divorce.
Like, our language was so limited in terms of how you could talk about, you know, I didn't know how

(05:58):
to explain to her. I am devoted to you. I adore you and want to stay with you. And I cannot ignore this
other part of myself. I did not know how to have that conversation. And so I didn't. We didn't have
a conversation. We had a crisis, right? And she found out that I was trying to connect with
men through the internet. And not something I am not in any way proud of or recommending to anybody.

(06:21):
It's a terrible thing to go behind one's spouses back. She found out I am not great at hiding things.
She found out. And that precipitated this crisis. She asked me to leave the house, which I did,
lived a couple blocks away in an apartment. But we had three children. So I was over every morning.
And whenever the kids were in the house, I was in the house because they were three. There were three of them

(06:44):
had different two of us. And while she was mad at me, and I was confused about what we should be doing,
we both knew that our three kids needed us and that one of us couldn't do it very easily alone.
So how far into the marriage was this then when that ship began to drift? 14 years.
14. Yeah. So when you said you couldn't do it alone, one of you couldn't do it alone,

(07:07):
what do you mean by that? What came out of that realization?
Um, even though we were real, she was really angry at me and I was really confused about what I wanted
to do with the relationship. We kept gravitationally, we kept coming back that we needed to take care of our
children together. And they think also over time, we also still loved each other. We couldn't deny that we

(07:31):
still loved each other cared for each other. I still wanted to hear about her day. She wanted to hear
about my day. We are, we're very deeply involved with each other's families, you know, in a very
warm connected way. And so it was very hard to sort of convince ourselves that divorce was the
right option for us. And at a certain point, we, you know, were working with a couples counselor

(07:52):
at about nine months in of working with us, nominally working on getting divorced, but not really
looking like we were very actively getting divorced. The couples counselor said, have the two of you
ever thought about a non-monogamous arrangement? Would you ever consider that? And earth, the earth
rocked at that moment. It was as if the Cascadia earthquake suddenly struck. I mean, I did not think

(08:15):
that, um, that a couples counselor, a licensed professional could say, uh, could, could say, you could
consider an open marriage. But uh, this woman, Lynne, this is all captured in the memo. She said, you
know what? Your marriage can be whatever you want it to be. And sure, an open marriage will be
harder because there won't be the same social support. So say in 2007, right, different from now.

(08:40):
But um, but with really good communication and perseverance and dedication, you guys can make this
work. If you decided to make it work, you can make it work. You don't have to, you don't have to,
you don't have to take the stories that we're told about what marriage is supposed to look like,
you can make your own marriage. So what did that look like when she had a chance to sit down and

(09:00):
define that between two of you? I think there was a, there was a period of like this, this like,
in between period for a long period of time, it was an experiment. And you know, after Lynne
tossed that option out to us, we had a conversation about, well, maybe we could try this as an experiment,
maybe try for six months to a year. And then, um, and if it doesn't work, if it's intolerable,

(09:24):
then we just have the most amicable, generous divorce you can possibly have. We transitioned to whatever
the next phase of our relations is it's going to be. Um, but, but we found that, you know, with perseverance
and time and also we had support, we had a really good counselor supporting us that we were able to
figure out a way to have other relationships, but also protect our bond. We're back in the same

(09:48):
house together under the same roof. Eventually, eventually. Like, I think I think this actually
looks like a lot, how it looks in a lot of couples where they're separated where I get starts with me
in an apartment, you know, three blocks away. And then eventually, I'm over at the house all the time.
And then eventually I start to rationalize, well, could I sleep in the guest room some night?
And then eventually we make the guest room into my room, more depper rooms. You know, so eventually,

(10:11):
we were living under the same roof, but just in separate bedrooms. And that seemed to be an adjustment
that helps both of us. As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life
and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want. Together, we're all online those

(10:35):
persistent self-doubt that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly
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services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.

(10:59):
You're listening to Outlate with David.
So we have a conversation with the therapist and she throws out the idea of
nonmenogamy, which was really contrary to the baseline understanding of why you got married
and to move away from her father. You had to be that way. How did she react to that?

(11:20):
I mean, I think there was a period of deep uncertainty. There was a period where it felt like a real
threatening thing to contemplate. I think she was reluctant. I think she was ambivalent.
And I think that is how that does characterize. She didn't just embrace it immediately.

(11:42):
And either did I. Because it wasn't just her tolerating that I would be going out with guys.
We were going to do it in an equitable way. She was going to go out with guys too.
And in fact, when we sort of mapped out, well, what would it look like us to do this,
go down this path? One of the things we agreed is, well, because of the symbolism of it,

(12:04):
she had to go first. She had to be the one to start dating first.
Because she had already been betrayed. And if I just kind of jump out there, the hair in the race
ahead of the tortoise, it would very much look like I was kind of exploiting an arrangement.
It had to be her going first. She had to see what it felt like first.

(12:25):
How did you arrive at that conclusion that it had to be her first?
Is that her idea, the therapist idea?
That was very much, I think she and I collectively agreed that there was just no other way.
Because we were also conscious of the fact that all of our friends and family would know we would be
doing this, that they would be, we had to be sensitive to what it would look like to them.

(12:46):
And you know, and what it would feel like to us, you know, she again, she already was in the position
where she felt betrayed. Understandably, she felt betrayed. And so I, it was, I think it was just really,
it was respectful for me not to get too far out ahead of it. And again, I also would say, I was
as ambivalent as she was in the beginning. I didn't know 100% it was going to work. I just knew

(13:09):
what we had wasn't working too. How would your friends and family know you said they would know,
were you telling them or just through observation? Or, I think a little bit of both. I mean, we don't,
I think with, yeah, we would obviously to get through something like this, you have to be able
to talk to people, you have to be able to process what's coming up for you and all that kind of so,

(13:31):
so we had to have people we were talking to about what it was like. How do you get rid of that one?
I would say, and I would just say that that's hard because you break a lot of rules when you decide
to be non monogamous and even your best friends may have an, an evenness or uncertainty.
Partly because for many of our friends, they were never allowed to have a conversation either when

(13:55):
they originally got married. You know, it's not a conversation that people, you know, when people
decide to get married, it's not on the table whether you're going to be monogamous or not. It's not an
open discussion. You're just going to be monogamous, right? There's no room for the discussion.
But we were having the discussion and I think the fact that we were having a discussion could
potentially be threatening to a lot of our monogamous friends, but we had friends who were able to

(14:20):
flex and be there for us. Well, you said we're going to break a lot of rules. I guess I would
re-cast that as you might be breaking a lot of other people's rules, but you were actually defining
the new rules for your life as you move forward to stay together. There's a new rule set.
What compromises did the two of you have to make as you develop these new rules to go forward?

(14:40):
What compromises, I think dating people outside of your marriage
brings in a whole other level of threat and risk, right? That you have to figure out how are we going
to manage the sense of threat these other partners potentially pose to us. And so we tried a lot of

(15:02):
different things to see what could we do to reduce how threatening it felt when the night she went out
or the night that I went out. One thing that helped, if we were involved with someone over a period of
time, was for the partner to meet the boyfriend. That helped. So I would meet the guy she was going out
with, get to know them, have it be so that they weren't this stranger, right? And then she would

(15:28):
meet whatever guy that I was going out with. And yet, it's awkward, it's un-offended, it's easy,
right? But at the end of the day, we were both choosing good people, right? We weren't bringing
anybody into our lives who was a bad person. And in fact, I frequently, I would hear what she did
when she went on her dates with the guy she was seeing. I'd be a little jealous because I'd like,

(15:51):
that sounds really fun. I wish that I was going to that concert or I wish I was going to that poetry
reading. So, and we did really pick good people in our initial foray. I remember her first boyfriend,
very generous soul. And he would send back little gift for me. He had great taste and clothes,

(16:17):
right? He had great taste and clothes. And so he would send back clothes that he was tired of,
he didn't want anymore. I wanted you to take this to Wayne and see if Wayne might,
Wayne might like this. And I'd say it and I'd be like, that's a nice jacket.
Very weird situation, but it did sort of like it was hard to feel threatened by someone who's giving

(16:39):
you a really nice jacket. You're like, you know, he'd be a good guy. Guess what, it's running through my
mind too, is if you're dating people who had assumed their perspective, they're, there's something that
this is not a lifelong commitment that Wayne when he's dating me or when your wife is dating somebody.
Yeah. So how did they react to this environment? They found out about it because they may

(17:03):
start with, oh, I've got somebody forever. Well, they can't be forever because they're actually still
getting any in union at home. Absolutely. You know, we were always clear that we had a primary
relationship and that we were both basically only looking for people who were in the poly community
or for me, I was involved in a group called Hasbens Out To Their Wives. And I connected with another man

(17:26):
who same age had kids and was in a committed relationship with his wife, but with an agreement to
be open. And so that was the safest arrangement to possibly go into because we were both clear to
each other. Yeah, I'm not living in my wife. We're both very, very attached to our spouses. We can have
this special friendship with each other and they can know about it, but we're not, we're not ever,

(17:49):
it's never going to become something where we are going to be moving in together or making a
primary commitment to each other. So when you're both rotating, did you ever four come together and
do anything together as a group of four? It's interesting that you asked. We actually did. I
wanted the experiments. One of the experiments. At a certain point, I had been seeing a guy,

(18:12):
another how, brother, another guy, I met their husbands out to their wives. I'd been seeing him very
seriously. I wanted even my wife, that's a student in the book. I wanted her to meet him. She was like,
"Oh God, really? Are you sure? It's really been long." And if I don't want to, because it's nerve-wracking.
It's nerve-wracking to meet your husband, your friend. But the thing is, the guy that she was seeing

(18:36):
at the time, whose name was Eric, he said, "Yeah, it's going to be hard for you to meet Tim, the guy
that you're seeing, for her to meet Tim. How about if I come along? How about I come along as your
support?" And so we ended up having the four of us, me, my boyfriend, her wife, and her boyfriend,

(18:57):
and then who gets the check in that arrangement, do you think? Who gets the check? I mean, that's a really
complicated... There's all these etiquettes that have not been figured out yet, right? Look,
I don't remember who paid. I just remember dreading when the check came, because I was like, I really
don't know who's paying because... Yeah, wow. Interesting. I can't imagine being there quite regularly.

(19:21):
But I would... My jumps to my head though were the kids. The kids are at home, I assume. And mom and
dad are both dating. How do the children react to this arrangement that they're observing?
You know, our children knew about it. Our children knew about my sexual orientation.
I wish they cared more than they did. They just didn't seem to care. They're basic needs and what

(19:46):
they wanted from us was very separate and they got those things. And they just didn't seem
particularly interested in it. Over the ranges at the time. They were school-aged, so my youngest
would have been... When we started, my youngest would have been five or six, and my oldest would have been
maybe ten. So... Okay. So you went through this experiment and what is the status today? Are you still married?

(20:11):
So we've been married. We've been together for about 35 years, and we've been in this phase of our
marriage, non-minogamous for about 15. Still together today. Yep. Very, very, very, very happily together.
So having been through this, what have you learned about marriage and relationships from having been

(20:37):
in and in now today, this mixed orientation marriage? I think one of the biggest
messages that I... that come home really strongly for me is that we live in a culture where there's
a very strict marriage divorce binary, where it's one or it's the other. And we have very narrow

(20:59):
definitions of what a successful marriage looks like, and people get annoyed and feel dissonant when
it doesn't look like that. And I think there's a lot of space in between those two ideas. There's a
lot of different ways to be married, and there's a lot of... there should be a lot of room to adapt

(21:20):
the form, to fit who you both are at different stages of your life. I mean, who we are when we're
28? Thank God I'm not the same person. It wasn't I was 28. I mean, seriously, I was a very good young man,
but like, what did I know about the world? You know, we can't possibly be held. I can't put
other things that we think we can do when we're 28. There has to be room. The structure of how we

(21:45):
partner with each other has to be flexible enough to let us grow and heal and adapt. Our bodies age
are sexual desires change and morph over time. People discover that they are bisexual or homosexual.
So there's got to be room for people to grow. I mean, one way I think about it is like

(22:07):
my spouse and I have had multiple marriages over time, like strung together. Like almost like a
strand of pearls. You know, every marriage is multiple marriages over time.
The same partners, what you're saying though, it's each of the life experiences.
Yeah, and you just recreate. It goes through iterations over time depending on how you evolve and

(22:30):
grow as people and how you negotiate. Well, this is how we're going to work it so that we're still
together. You know, so there's the things we do to preserve our togetherness and then there's
the things we do to allow ourselves to grow as individuals separate from each other.
So what do you see is the next strand in the strand of pearls for you, the next pearl that you're

(22:51):
going to add on as your marriage continues? What change do you see there? Good question. I mean,
our children, it feels like they just left even if they've gone a couple of years,
it still feels like they've just left. They're all in their early 20s now, so we're very much in this
like sort of getting to know what it's like to live just the two of us in this big house that feels

(23:12):
very empty. And you know, looking for other ways that we fill our time other than, you know,
taking children's places or, you know, worrying about tuition. So we still spend a lot of time together.
I see, I do, I see, primarily she's just one other guy at this point. And yeah, and it seems very

(23:33):
compatible. It's not taking anything away from anybody. From my anecdotal experience, some
mean come out later in life and they end up in a mixed orientation marriage at some level because
they don't want to come out publicly. They're kind of dragged, they're spousing the closet with them,
they stay either gay or by and they may have an agreement to, you know, have a boyfriend and have

(23:56):
some experiences outside of that. They don't want to upset, you know, the family life, but they didn't
go into it as consciously maybe as you did. So how could you give them some advice on how they might
negotiate that type of an arrangement as they try to go through that, you know, as a therapist
yourself and having been a man had experienced it. I think, I think one of the biggest lessons for me

(24:21):
was patience and giving yourself a wide birth of time to figure it out and to have, to experiment
with different ways of trying to make it work and create boundaries around it and know that you will
make, you will learn through making the mistakes through the things that don't work, right? So time,

(24:42):
giving yourself time, giving yourself grace, allowing, allowing room for each other to make,
for it to be rocky sometimes. It was not easy. And part of the reason I wrote the memoir, the memoir is
not a peaceful, easy story from, you know, they were monogamous one day and they were nominized. It
wasn't a switch. It was a long, painful period of time of figuring out and reckoning. And

(25:08):
and part of it, I wanted to honor for all couples who go through any kind of transition like this
that that's okay. It's okay to take your time to be patient with the messiness of the process.
Lots of messy, conflictual arrangements as you try to figure out what your way is. Because I think
I do think that there's something that happens because again, we've got this marriage divorce binary

(25:31):
in our culture. A lot of people when they see someone in a marriage that seems to be struggling,
they say, you know what, maybe you should leave him or maybe he's not worth your time. He,
you know, why don't you like, you know, give up on him? This is not worth it. No woman wouldn't put
up with this. And that's not helpful, actually. It's not helpful for people to tell you what to do.
It's a big stakes decision what you do with the marriage. And so it should take a couple years. Like,

(25:57):
it's okay to take a couple years to figure out what creative form can this morph into to allow us
both to be the people we're supposed to be. Yeah, that patience is incredibly hard, I think,
to follow. I know when I came out, it was like I had been bursting. It just had to come out. Yep.
Yep. And maybe I might do things differently had I been more patient. Yeah. It's hard. I think especially,

(26:23):
you know, like I know when we had our crisis, our crisis, right? My crisis, which became our crisis,
I was very desperate and lonely, right? And when you're desperate and lonely, you do things
are not proud of. You know, because you just want something to help the loneliness go away.
But yeah, I think patience, lot of patience, or sometimes validations of thoughts that I've been

(26:49):
keeping in my head. Yeah. I want to share them to get validated that they're okay. And it's me. I
want that, you know, acknowledgement of who I really am that I've been hiding all these years. Yeah,
absolutely. And not necessarily thinking of all the second order effects of that. Yeah.
One of the discoveries I made as I was writing this, it wasn't the book I thought it was going to be.

(27:09):
You know, I originally I had done separate essays about different experiences we had on the past
to nonmenogamy, just kind of grappling with myself, trying to make sense of things that had happened
to us. Sometimes they thought they were funny stories, funny little stories about a marriage going to
rye. But then I realized that I certainly had like six or seven of these essays and I lined them up
chronologically and I thought, you know what, if I just filled in a couple gaps, I could have a

(27:32):
memoir here. And once I looked at all these episodes, all these stories together, I realized that
even though there was a lot of storminess, a messiness throughout, there was also an incredible amount
of devotion. This couple that I was writing about my spouse and myself, we could not

(27:53):
have tried these hard things unless we had the grace of each other's love.
Even though sometimes we thought we were angry each other, you know, we still, there was still,
you, it was undeniable that there is love through all these different stories of things that we
went through and I realized it somehow somehow even I was writing about a couple who think they're

(28:15):
getting divorced, I had actually written a love story. It's just a very unlikely love story.
It's a love story that's worn out of this very hot crucible of reckoning.
So what motivated you to want to share all this thought and experience and put it in a book?
You know, I think one of the things that helped me as I was coming to terms with my queer identity

(28:42):
when I was younger and when I was coming to terms with where we were going with our marriage
was that other people had written about their experiences. So the title, The Maps They Gave Us,
comes from a beautiful series of love poems that the lesbian poet Adrian Rich wrote to her lover
when they were first getting together and the line is whatever we do together is pure invention.

(29:06):
The Maps They Gave Us were out of date by years. So these are my queer ancestors. These are the
people lighting the path. You know, like there were people who went before me. I am not the first person.
We are not the first person people to be to be a mixed orientation arrangement to try

(29:29):
nonmenogamy as a container that might fit for us. Other people have done it and they are queer
and feminist people and we just need to read them, right? And they were, you know, GH Lawrence, Oscar Wilde,
EM Farster, James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, all these authors that I read, they're all in the memoir too.
Like I'm always grappling with some queer author who's speaking to me, lighting the way for me,

(29:51):
I had that gift, right? I had those authors give the gift of their vision to me. I wanted to be that
to somebody else too. Like I felt like somebody else had sort of lit the path as far as I could go.
I want to light the path even further for other people. Because again, I don't think I think there's
still so much stigma attached to these kinds of arrangements that it's much easier to just not talk

(30:16):
about it. Yeah, well, as you said, you're breaking someone else's rule as you define your new rules.
So the book is called the Church of Rules. The Church of Rules. The like, most people are really
scared of the Church. They're scared of their preachers, right? So yes, yes. Well, the book is called
The Maps They Gavis and I'm sure it's available over people by their books. Wayne Scott, thank you so
much for sharing your story today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, David. This is a great conversation.

(30:45):
It goes without saying that Wayne and his wife have a unique relationship. They chose to break the
rules and norms of society and boldly define the boundaries for the relationship they desired.

(31:08):
For them, they have truly redefined what marriage is and shown us that perhaps it can be whatever
you want it to be. It's an arrangement that requires honesty, trust and communication. Wayne and his
wife have proven it can work if both are committed. Thank you again to Wayne Scott. His book is called
The Maps They Gavis. Thanks for listening and join us next time on Outlate with David.

(31:36):
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