Wendy Cole - "Gender is Between the Ears, and Not the Legs" - Out Late With David

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Music]

(00:12):
You're listening to Out Late With David. True stories of coming out later in life.
And now here's your host, David Cotton.
Today's guest transitioned mail to female in 2015 at age 67.
She says she had the feeling of not belonging to find her life.
She wasn't sure she even belonged to herself and believes gender is between the ears and not the legs.

(00:38):
To share her story and advice for others, joining me today from Providence, Rhode Island is Wendy Cole.
[Music]
Wendy, I am so glad you're able to join me today on Outley with David, and welcome.
Thank you so much for having me here, David. I'm really glad to be here, and I've enjoyed meeting you.

(01:05):
It's been nice to meet you. I'm glad we connected. There's so much I want to discuss today. Lots of questions.
But let's start with that feeling that you had of not belonging to find your life.
Tell me more about that. Is that me?
Okay.
When a person like myself is born, gender identity is formed in the frontal cortex of the brain during the second trimester of birth.

(01:32):
At the same time, heterosexual orientation is formed in the amygdala of the brain during the second trimester of birth.
It all begins there, only.
And those two settings in the brain, those things to get wired in the brain, don't change. They don't go away.

(01:54):
But as soon as I was born, I was assigned male at birth.
Gender is between the ears, not the legs.
That's just physical anatomy down there.
But through all the socialization from my parents initially, and family, and friends, and neighbors, and going into school, you find out that how you see yourself, I always saw myself as being more with the girls than with the boys.

(02:29):
In what way? Did you see yourself in that way?
It's just more comfortable playing with them. I was just more comfortable being with them. I didn't like being rough with the guys. I didn't like football or any of that kind of stuff.
And every time I tried to fit in, I would play football after school. And it was usually touch football, which usually got a little rougher.

(02:53):
And I was rewarded by being punished for breaking my classes. So it never really, really worked out for me. And I knew how I felt, but I didn't really have the words for it either.
And this is common for a lot of people like me.

(03:14):
Sometimes we just know how we feel, and it's a feeling. So by the time I was 10, I told my parents, I'm a girl.
How did they react to that when you said, I'm a girl? I actually just had this boy for 10 years.
Well, it didn't go well. I was immediately taken to a psychiatrist at a psychiatric center. We lived about 40 miles north of New York City.

(03:43):
And I was taken to the psychiatric center, the Craig House. And there I was told that, well, he told my parents once he has a career, a wife, a house and family.
I don't forget all about being a girl. I said, no, I won't. This is who I am. I was taken from the room. We had five sessions. And the whole thing ended with my parents telling me, if you don't stop insisting you're a girl.

(04:20):
You have to work really hard to repress this and don't ever go there again and all that kind of stuff. And then it was threatened with being committed to the psychiatric center and fixed.
Oh, mine.
What would involve being fixed in those days? I don't know. But this was 1958, 59.

(04:47):
And I assume it would have things to do with drugs and electro shock therapy or any of those kinds of things that they were doing that.
The DSM in those days still had, you know, being gay or LGBTQ plus as a mental illness.
Exactly. And I didn't give up. I repressed from there and hid it and did everything I could fit in and blend into heteronormative society values. And I just tried my very best.

(05:26):
By the end of my college career, I couldn't take it.
I didn't feel to hide it all those years, keeping it inside and repressed. Oh my God. It was horrible. I was depressed. I had anxiety. I had a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, a lot of fear.
And it doesn't go away. It just kind of ebbs and flows, but it's always there. It's always in the back of your mind from the moment I woke up until the time I went to bed.

(05:56):
I'd even go to bed at night, praying to fall asleep and wake up as a girl.
Yeah.
I realized that you had that what I'll characterize a negative experience with the healthcare, mental health care profession at the time.
Did you ever engage with or want to engage with a mental health person during those years of repression?

(06:17):
No. I was all about pleasing my parents and not getting committed.
I decided at the end of college that I was going to live the rest of my life, authentically the way I believed I was.
I actually got a psychiatrist.

(06:38):
And he started working with me. I started coming out to neighbors and all of that because I was living in a city in upstate New York, actually connected to New York.
And I was not on campus or anywhere near campus.
So I was coming out to people as he had instructed me to and it was working. It was fine.

(07:02):
I was actually having a good time trying to figure this all out.
In those days, there was no Google. There was no internet. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have information resources for any of this.
And I had tried through my college years researching different libraries, every from American University in Georgetown and Washington, D.C. all the way to upstate New York.

(07:27):
And I went to universities and you were I went to I would go to libraries and look to see what was there.
Well, my psychiatrist took me to a meeting quarterly meeting of psychiatrist in the area where I was going to be the case study patient.
And I was going to found out psychiatrist stood up after I was talking for 15 minutes or so and said, I'm going to see every all you rest of you next quarter looked at me and said, you're freak.

(08:02):
You should move to New York City and turn tricks like the rest of them.
Your own psychiatrist said that?
I know there was another psychiatrist in the meeting. It was about 20 psychiatrist there. And that's when I found out that according to the DSM and my diagnosis, psychological, no treatment, no cure.

(08:27):
See you later.
You're a freak. You need to go to New York City and turn tricks like the rest of them, which I had no idea David at the time once he meant by that.
None of this was visible to the outside world. And what I found out later is that it was all underground in Manhattan in San Francisco.

(08:51):
And in those days, too, I for appearing in public, I would be arrested when assigned male to birth. I would be arrested thrown in jail, find heavily.
And my name published in the paper. And that's why I found out the in 1969 why they had the riots at Stonewall.

(09:17):
And it was to drag queens in the transexuals that through the first bricks indeed indeed. Yes.
Which is why some people go, you need to embrace the tea and LGBTQ plus. The rest of us might not have life the way it is had that not happened. There's been involved. But it was.
But the thing of it was is in 1973.

(09:41):
The DSM for people who are gay changed right. It was no longer a psychological condition.
Right. So you had that experience though at that meeting where the psychiatrist had been up. How did you react to that?
If you walk through that door going home. And then how did you conduct your life since you'd already started to tell people who you really are?

(10:04):
Well, when I found out that my diagnosis really was that I had absolutely no medical support whatsoever, no therapeutic support.
And that essentially that that psychiatrist was right.
My only option was to live in a place like Manhattan, go underground and do whatever I could to survive.

(10:31):
There was no moving into society. It was not accepted. And gay changed in 1973. No, when it changed for people like me.
2012 almost four and a half decades later is when they changed the diagnostic. We've only had therapeutic and medical support and legal rights and all of that for 13 years.

(11:05):
And it's being eroded today. And they're working very hard and trying to erode it. But what I tell others is don't give up hope.
We're not going anywhere. We've always existed. And I'm not going back underground again. I'm not repressing. I'm not hiding. And that's the end of that.
And it's we have too much in the way of communication tools now. We walk around with cell phones all day long.

(11:37):
Which can be good on and bad as well.
It has its ups and downs. Yes. So from that intervening time from that experience with that psychiatrist that made that comment about you.
And to when you transition that 67 what happened those intervening years if you started you. I presume you must have stopped or something changed.

(11:59):
Otherwise, stop dead in my tracks, David. I kind of knew that what I've been told all the years by other doctors and by my parents that you know.
But I figured I'd give it a try.

(12:20):
I went to a technical I was interested in computers and at the time it was I went into a technical school to learn about computers and got a job with a computer company.
And I wound up getting married.
I had the career. I had the wife. I eventually had the house in the family.

(12:46):
Wow. And David after five years of that I couldn't have been more miserable.
It was very, very difficult just to repress everything.
And I immersed myself in my technical career working with I was first a manufacturing engineer and project manager for a computer company in Massachusetts.

(13:18):
And I immersed myself in that and I spent the last 18 years in the tech field as an independent contractor and consultant to working with all the Microsoft technologies.
And it was a great distraction for me.
I could just buried yourself in your work and your career, which I've heard this from more than one where their personality after coming out or transitioning is different than before because they used their work or focus of something to keep themselves distracted and occupied.

(13:58):
And it's a distraction. And I was spending anywhere from 10 to 14 hours a day. And especially when I was doing my contract consulting work, I'd sit in front of the computer for 12, 15, 16 hours a day.
I guess I believe too that maybe by working so hard, people like you and me, we got validation as a human being through our work performance when we didn't feel validated for some of the thoughts we were having or who we might be if we hadn't figured it out yet.

(14:32):
That's an excellent point and very true.
I really do feel that it's a matter of resilience and determination to not give up.
I had hope that things could possibly change.

(14:57):
But every time I would go online and look, nothing had changed. And in fact, everything was kind of bleak.
So how long were you married in that marriage relationship with two kids? I've ever called two children.
Two kids? 40 years.
Wow. 40 years.
And in November of 2014, I was really, really done with vice.

(15:28):
I had struggled. I'd been through as much as I possibly could. And I just didn't feel I had anything else to live for. And I was just so tired of repressing this and hiding.
And I went, I went online and I looked. It was in November of 2014. I looked online.

(15:55):
Hey, it all changed in 2012.
Recognition by the medical community legally and therapy was possible now.
So I spent November and December of that year searching for a psychologist.

(16:20):
And I knew that I needed someone that could actually help me break loose and come free.
It is scary. I admit that. And all but I was doing this out of survival.

(16:42):
I needed to come out and be me in order to survive. I couldn't go on the way I was.
My health was not great. Blood work was terrible. I was type due diabetic and I was 70 pounds every year than I am now.
All that changed once I transitioned.

(17:05):
Can you find role models or I know of someone from a previous panel I put together about coming out and they call themselves a transition doula.
In fact, they told me about this book, Trans Bodies Trans Cells, which is a fantastic resource. It's very detailed.
You can see by its yes, stickness. Did you find anybody like that? A doula, a mentor, someone who had kind of gone down the path already that could help guide you or you on your own.

(17:35):
I was pretty much on my own. I didn't know any other transgender people.
I had never been part of the LGBT community. And in fact, you're going to find this hysterical.
Because gay people were scary to me in my previous life.
Because I was convinced they would figure me out and know there was something different about me.

(18:05):
Well, I did move into New Hope, Pennsylvania. I moved on to a very nice street, very social.
I found out from I had three gay couples that lived on that street.
Along with everybody else, it was a mixed community. It was wonderful.

(18:26):
Flowers were at my front door. Welcome to the neighborhood, Chad and Jason, number 15.
It's sweet.
I know. It was lovely.
And I found out that they were away for the weekend. So I waited until Sunday. I went down on a Sunday evening at around nine o'clock, knocked on the door and introduced myself.

(18:50):
And I'd only been living as myself for about a week at the time.
And really wasn't talking to many people at the time. But I decided what the heck I'm here.
I'm going to go be me and talk to these guys.

(19:12):
And I figured, okay, they're going to know all about me.
So I was told that there's a running bet in the neighborhood.
Are you a cisgender woman? Or are you one of the cross-dressers that come into town periodically for events?
And I said, neither.

(19:34):
Back it, I said, back in the old days, like before 2012, the first decade and the whole last century, I would have been called a transsexual.
And that's what I am.
I'm doing this. I'm living this way full time. I'm changing my legal identity. I'm going to have surgery somewhere or somehow.

(19:57):
I don't know when, but that's going to happen.
And that's the first time I ever said this to anyone.
I'm an open book. Ask me anything you want to and absolutely nothing is off limits.
Jason looked at me and said, Wendy, you shouldn't have said that in front of you.

(20:20):
He asked everything. I mean, he dove into everything, very personal the whole bit. It was fun. I had a great time with them.
I was open. They were open about what they didn't know and asked all kinds of questions.
And we talked from about nine o'clock on a Sunday evening until 3 30 on Monday morning.

(20:47):
I left David. I left their mind blown.
First of all, look about silly beliefs.
All those decades, I'm afraid of gay people because they'll figure about my secret.
No.

(21:08):
But it was it was a wonderful experience and I went on to do that for the next five years in New Home Pennsylvania, just talking with everybody.
It was fun. And I had a good time and I met a lot of people and it totally changed my life.

(21:29):
And three years in that blood work, I said, that was horrible.
It's now good. Fantastic. The wait started to go away and the type 2 diabetic ended.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map a course to achieve the things you really want.

(22:01):
Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt that are holding you back.
You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward to discover your authentic self.
For more information about my personal life coaching services, or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.

(22:28):
You're listening to OutLate with David.
So before new hope, you were married with kids.
How did your wife react to your desire to transition or your your articulation to or who you really are?

(22:50):
In 2014, late in 2014, I told her I was looking for a therapist.
In the late 1970s, we'd been married for a while.
We had kids, we had a house, the career, the whole bit.
And I was absolutely miserable and I had been talking in my sleep about being a woman.

(23:15):
In your sleep. In my sleep. So your subconscious was, did it kind of out you to her at night?
Yep. So she woke me up and asked for an explanation and I decided I'm just going to tell her everything and will probably be divorced by morning.
And her statement to me the following day, what when I woke up was we're staying together as long as you don't do anything about this.

(23:49):
And I just basically agreed to it because what else was I going to do?
I didn't see any real benefit to getting divorced.
And what was I going to do? And my diagnosis hadn't changed. I'm sure of that. I was sure of that at the time and it hadn't.

(24:11):
So it was one of those things that was she knew and I knew, but we didn't talk about it. We didn't do any.
It was kind of like that thing that was in the room that nobody talked about.
And how long was that thing in the room until you took action?

(24:33):
Oh, at least 35 years.
I didn't do anything until I found out that the diagnosis had changed and I could get the support that I needed in order to do this effectively.
One of the things that I didn't learn going into this, I did go to my first therapy appointment.

(25:03):
I talked with her for 45 minutes or more. It was it was an intake session. So it was an hour and 15 minutes.
I poured my heart out. At the end, I'm standing up to leave and I was heading out the door and I turned and I said, I'll see you next Thursday.
And so are every Thursday. And what's your name?

(25:30):
And I immediately snapped back without thinking Wendy.
And my joy, she wrote Wendy on my file. And from that day forward, I was Wendy to her.
I found out a couple of years later I asked her, I said, when did you diagnose me? She said within five minutes.

(25:51):
That's good. But my my my ex now.
She was okay with me going for therapy.
Then I decided by my third therapy appointment, I was going to go to therapy as myself.

(26:12):
And then I went to therapy and I was like, I'm going to therapy. And I was like, I'm going to therapy.
I was like, I'm going to therapy. And I was like, I'm going to therapy.
And we had, you know, debated that the entire week before.

(26:43):
And it was the most wonderful experience. I did all my mental work of envisioning what it would feel like, what it would be like.
My therapist had got me into journaling all my thoughts.
She challenged for the from the very first session all the way through. She challenged all my beliefs as to why I couldn't do this.

(27:11):
It was good.
See, when I started, I had, I didn't know where this was going to lead.
And even in conversations with my wife at the time, you know, how do you know you're going to like it?
I don't know that I'm going to like living as a woman. I just know it's been me for decades.
And I can't die without trying it.

(27:35):
I'll just say my coming out. I had never experienced everything about being gay man.
I just knew in my head, though, that the way I was, that's what it was.
And I had to actually embrace it.
And realizing there would be impacts. So for you, where the kids still home, and then headed family and friends and colleagues and all that group of people react when all of a sudden, when these shows up on the scene.

(28:06):
One, I wasn't very social.
I was too busy all my life hiding.
So I didn't have many friends, co-workers. That was basically it.
And people that I knew from work and then neighbors.

(28:29):
That was it.
In terms, my parents were gone.
And my wife had known about this for several decades.
And her statement to me was, I worried when we were younger, I worried about it all the time.

(28:51):
Maybe he's going to do something about it.
And then what would that be?
And never expected in my 60s.
So, yeah, it was a complete surprise to her initially.
She said, go find a therapist I did.
He's drawn a book, the camel's back, as it were.

(29:16):
In late February of 2015, I was going to a clinic in Philadelphia and start hormone replacement therapy.
And see how that felt for me.
It was great.
And all, but her response to that was we didn't discuss it.

(29:39):
And I said, there's nothing to discuss.
This is my transition.
There's a boundary there.
I'm doing this for me.
And that's what we're doing.
And she said, okay.
And in that case, we're getting a divorce.
And I knew the answer.

(30:02):
I asked why anyway.
I said, why?
And she said, you're going to develop breasts.
You're Lord knows what else you're going to do.
We did talk a long time ago about possibly surgeries, things like that.
So, I'm not a lesbian.
I'm not going to be married to a woman or live with anybody like that.

(30:26):
So, we're done.
Okay.
That was it.
What's your relationship like with her today?
We still stay in touch.
We communicate via textine, occasional phone calls.
And that's pretty much it.

(30:47):
Just before the pandemic started, I moved back into the house.
And I set up an apartment for myself in the basement.
At the time that I transitioned, we couldn't sell the house.
The market was so horrible.
So, we left it out of the divorce.
My daughter and grandkids moved into the house.

(31:10):
And I moved out.
And it was about 20, well into 2020.
My ex looked at me and said, "You know, it's really good.
You moved away."
You never would have transitioned as well if you'd stayed living here and stayed with me.

(31:36):
I said, "Yes, I know.
Everything would have been a compromise.
And I was not about to compromise my transition."
And that's what I advise so many others to do.
So, you've been through the process yourself now, seem rather comfortable.
So, what do you see as your calling your purpose today, now that you've transitioned?

(31:58):
Well, my purpose and my mission has been constantly evolving like I have.
I became very social.
I became very outgoing.
I wound up sitting at the raven, which was the one remaining last gay bar in New Hope.
Talking with everybody at the bar.

(32:21):
And during happy hour, which was fun and it was enjoyable.
And how can you do all of this?
And what do you...
Well, you knew when you were young that you might be gay, you know.
You did all of this.
Yeah, you had a career, yes.

(32:42):
You did all... yes.
Only the first between you and me, you became a G. I became a T.
My mission now is to take everything that I learned living there in New Hope.
All the experiences I've had talking with people and sharing this with people.
And work to create social change.

(33:06):
And humanize being born transgender for the rest of society.
That's the only way we're going to ever have any kind of acceptance or any kind of informed allies.
And that's my purpose.

(33:27):
And I'm also working with people in transition.
So you're now one of those coaches, do you lose yourself then?
Exactly.
Fantastic.
We're similar in that regard.
A lot of my clients are those that are thinking through what their sexual orientation is and their sexuality.

(33:51):
Right.
And that was the other thing too that I had repressed all those years.
Not only did I repress huge parts of my personality.
And repressed my desires to be social and all of that.
And I not only repressed all of that, but I also repressed my true sexual orientation.

(34:14):
And I found that out after I had surgery.
I had to go try it.
And it worked.
Everything was fine.
So what do you see as your future in anything in addition?

(34:37):
What you're doing today, being a guy to coach, a doula, a proponent.
And it sounds like a lot of time you're spending to educate our community on what the tea really means.
Right.
Exactly.
And I've also taken on public speaking as well as consulting.

(34:59):
And I've been working with the people who are dealing with people who are dealing with people who have transgender in their family.
And I've worked with them.
So what advice do you have for those that have someone in their family that's exploring their gender identity or the process of transitioning?

(35:20):
Family members who are witnessing a person doing this, you transition with that person.
That's one of the key components.
You have to become educated, informed as to what this is all about, how it feels for that person.

(35:42):
And by all means, accept that person unconditionally without judgment.
They have all these years of bias.
Of course.
Oh, gosh.
And that's where the whole education.
And that's one of the reasons why I've started public speaking as well.
I will have been invited to go to a church and speak there because there are people in that congregation that have transgender individuals in their lives.

(36:17):
Somehow or another either as part of their family or coworkers or wherever.
And they have questions.
And that's what I do.
I go out and answer those questions and give them a chance.
What advice do you have for those that are questioning their own or transitioning themselves?
It's.
See, I stated earlier that I didn't know any transgender people and I really wasn't part of the transgender community when I began my transition.

(36:49):
I feel fortunate in that in one regard.
I didn't have a lot of the beliefs that exist within the community.
That first and foremost belief is that transition is difficult and takes a long time.
If that's what you believe, that's how it will be.

(37:13):
That's my statement to it.
I have helped people transition in a matter of months.
Once you remove the beliefs that keep you stuck in place and shift those thoughts to being more supportive and form new beliefs, it's amazing how quickly you can move forward.

(37:43):
It's those rules that we said we have a rule for something in our mind and we have to accept that that rule doesn't service well.
How else can we take that thought and pivot it to a rule that does service well?
Through my therapy in the first three months, I really got an education on thoughts, emotions, combined to form beliefs.

(38:12):
The only way forward is to change that.
I attend support group meetings around the country at times.
I'm invited and all of that.
I see the same people sitting in these meetings.
They share their lives to everybody in the meeting and then the meeting is done.

(38:37):
They're not making any progress.
I put that in something called STER STER.
If you're in a situation, it's the same.
But your thoughts around the situation, you can change.
Change your thoughts and changes your emotions.
If you can change your emotions, that can change your actions.

(38:59):
And then your actions are what is then the result?
STER.
Yes.
That's perfect.
That actually works.
I was following law of attraction for a while and got into that world.

(39:21):
I also got into following Dr. Joe D'Spenza.
My favorite book of his is Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself.
Chapter 7 and 8 are wonderful.
I've outlined everything that I did.
Wonderful.
But I transitioned in six months.

(39:43):
I was actually ready to do it by April.
From January to April.
It just took a while to find an apartment, make all the arrangements, do all that stuff.
You didn't have some years to plan your head a bit.
I think a few.
Before the six months didn't you?
With a little...
Actually, no.
I hadn't even thought about it other than that I had to repress this secret.

(40:07):
I wonder what was going on.
And I hadn't crossed dressed in over 35 years.
I couldn't do it.
It hurt too much to take it off and it reminded me of what I couldn't be.

(40:28):
And the listener wants to reengage or wants to engage with you.
I believe in podcasts and other things.
What's the best way to learn more about when the call or to reach out if they want to find that.
Well, meetwendycold.com is the best way to connect with me.
All right.
Well, thank you.

(40:49):
Thank you very much.
This has been fascinating to hear your story today.
From the beginning to today and how fast you did.
And it'll be inspirational for someone.
And as you and I know in this type of work, it'll touch somebody that will probably never know.
But usually in a positive way to let them know that they are not alone or they're not different or strange.
They're just who they are.

(41:10):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And it breaks my heart to see so many people just struggling with this.
When I know it can be...
I always tell my clients they'll find joy on the other side.
Mm-hmm.
It's there.
It's truly it.
Well, thank you for your time today.
I appreciate very much.

(41:31):
Thank you, David.
And for Lister's, we'll see you next time on Outlink with David.
[Music]

(41:57):
The obvious takeaway is as Wendy demonstrates, it's never too late to take charge and change the course of your life.
Follow your instinct and do what you believe is in your self-interest.
Others may not agree, but you are the one you're with 24 hours a day and life is too short to live a life unfulfilled and lacking of joy.
Granted, it won't all be perfect and there may be resistance along the way.

(42:19):
I'm inspired how Wendy has taken on the role of educator, not only in service of those who wonder who they are,
but for those who know who they are and desire a help from a role model along the journey.
And I'm happy to see how she has encouraged to share her story with the hopes to dispel the misinformation and prejudiced about the transgender community.

(42:41):
Early this year, she started a new podcast to support this effort.
It's called "Demystifying the Transgender Journey".
Thank you, Yen, to Wendy Cole for sharing her story.
That's all for now and until next time on Outlink with David.
To hear more episodes, visit OutlateWithDavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching services, go to DavidCottonCoaching.com.

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Wendy Cole - "Gender is Between the Ears, and Not the Legs"

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Wendy Cole - "Gender is Between the Ears, and Not the Legs"