December 3, 2023 • 37 mins
William Brown is an author, a licensed professional counselor, and a man who knows firsthand what it’s like to come out later in life. At age forty he told his wife of 18 years, and his children… that he is gay. What he’s learned since—helped him create the definitive “how to” book for coming out later in life.
Book Recommendation: Coming True: Seeking Truth in Self, Later In Life, by today's guest, William Brown. https://a.co/d/6cEM5Jj
Video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/5y_GJsqzcXg
Podcast website and for more resources about coming out LGBTQ+: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
Book Recommendation: Coming True: Seeking Truth in Self, Later In Life, by today's guest, William Brown. https://a.co/d/6cEM5Jj
Video version of this episode: https://youtu.be/5y_GJsqzcXg
Podcast website and for more resources about coming out LGBTQ+: https://www.OutLateWithDavid.com
Certified Professional Life Coach, David Cotton: https://www.DavidCottonCoaching.com
Contact me: david@davidcottoncoaching.com
© 2024 David Cotton Coaching, LLC. All rights reserved.The "Out Late With David" podcast and its content are the property of David Cotton Coaching, LLC. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from David Cotton Coaching, LLC is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to "Out Late With David" and David Cotton Coaching, LLC with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Watch the video version of this podcast at OutLateWithDavid.com
(00:04):
Hi, I'm David Cotton. I'm a father, a brother, a son. I'm a retired U.S. Air Force
Brigadier General, a former senior executive in the Department of Defense, a corporate vice
president, and now a life coach. At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world. I'm gay.
(00:31):
Join me as I talk with others who've made this coming out journey late in life to become
who they really are. You're listening to OutLateWithDavid.
My guest today is an author, a licensed professional counselor, and a man who knows
firsthand what it's like to come out later in life. At age 40, he told his wife of 18 years
(00:57):
and his children that he is gay. What he's learned since helped him create the definitive
"How To Book For Coming Out Later In Life." Join me today is Wambrown, author of the book,
"Coming True."
Welcome to OutlateWithDavid.
(01:19):
Thank you so much, David. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
In this book, I'll tell the listeners now. I wish it was the one that I had when I was going through
this journey myself. When someone has married for many years and they have kids and they're involved,
the idea of coming out gay is just terrifying, and it was for me. But in your book, "Coming True,"
you create this roadmap for doing this like a "How To Book." What was something that you wish
(01:42):
you had when you came out? I think I would have liked to have known that there's a roadmap ahead of
things that are going to happen, not that everybody's journey is exactly the same, but there are a lot
of similar markers and that the process just takes time. Having some idea of where this is going to
go and how it might go and how to work through it is kind of what I hope to be able to provide by
(02:05):
writing the book. So for you, of course, it started with your own coming out story. It was what
kicked it all. So can you tell us how that happened? I had in my 30s started experiencing some pretty
severe PTSD related to sexual abuse in my childhood. And once I started to look at that and work on
that and understand that, I was able to understand that a lot of the fear, shame, guilt I felt that was
(02:32):
part of that abuse situation had nothing to do with my own natural sexual attractions. That was the
beginning of me starting to recognize that my sexual identity was not indeed straight.
So when when when was that? How old are you? I was about 38, 39 years old and I went through a lot
(02:53):
of really great therapy around that. And it kind of left me at that point thinking, well, I'm not
straight. Maybe I'm bisexual. Maybe I can just make this work and and you know, I'll just keep this
to myself and I won't do anything about it. And I ended up just becoming more and more depressed,
more and more anxious as I started to realize, gosh, this is a thing I can't make go away. And then
(03:17):
the second thing that happened in my life around the same time my oldest child started to identify
is something other than straight. She was 14 years old. It took an incredible amount of courage on her
end to kind of share this and and talk about it and it became really hard for me as a dad to say, wow,
(03:39):
you're you're facing this and I'm not. So you're going through this process in parallel?
Was it absolutely then? Yes. And so kind of the pressures of those two things together
led me to seek some help start to understand what are my options. How could I do this? How do I start to
talk about it? And it led me to start the disclosure process with my wife and then the subsequent
(04:05):
changes that happened afterwards. So those were the two events that precipitated change in my story.
So when you said you started the disclosure process to your wife as I understand from your book,
she asked you questions. She did. I was just experiencing such levels of depression and anxiety that
it was clear something was wrong. By happenstance I ended up with a therapist who had walked this path
(04:30):
before me and at some point she started to look at his website and find out a few more things about him
and realized that was one of the spaces that he worked on. So that led her to ask the question,
is this something that's on the table? It was something I was preparing to have those conversations
but she bravely initiated it and I had to meet her there and say, you know what, yes,
(04:54):
this is the issue that I've been struggling with. But it began to run into that when you.
She was scared. She was concerned, afraid, did not know where things would go.
She also was amazingly understanding and wanted to give me time and space to continue to work on
(05:15):
this. She wanted some answers and at that moment I wasn't even ready to say, I am gay. I just was able
to say this is the thing I'm looking at. So she waited patiently for me to continue to work on that
till the day came where I was able to say, you know what, this is the truth about me.
When did you say those three words? I am gay. I said those to her about three months later.
(05:42):
When did you say them to yourself? Probably a couple of months before she asked the first question
that I was starting to have that language to myself and understanding what that word meant.
Because one of the things that I've noticed in the work that I do is lots of us had this definition
of what being gay meant and it meant a certain lifestyle or a certain mannerism or certain
(06:04):
all of these things that we were like, well, I'm not like that. So I'm not gay. So I had to understand
that the definition is not about all that stuff. It's simply about my internal settings for who I'm
affectionately and sexually attracted to and that's it. And so once I was able to get that definition
clear from myself and understand that it would be okay, that she will be okay, our family will be okay.
(06:30):
I was able to, you know, start to take the steps to live it.
Once you had the conversation with her, when did you expand the bubble to then include your daughter?
It was about, it was about a month after she and I had that conversation. We kind of took that time
(06:52):
to decide between ourselves is this something we could make work in a marriage or not? And we both
reached the conclusion that we couldn't. And once we made that decision, we decided telling the kids
first was most appropriate. And then we wanted to tell our extended families very quickly.
My kids were wonderful about it. They were sad. They had some questions, but, you know, they
(07:19):
approached it very lovingly. The fact that my wife and I sat together to tell them that they could see
that we were not. There was an acrimony there that, you know, we were approaching this with loving them
first, helped with that. Our extended families were a mix of reactions. My, my mother was
(07:40):
said all the right things about, I love you no matter what. And I didn't know this was happening
and my father was not so happy about it. It took him a while to first tell me that he was not happy
about it. And then it took even longer for him to kind of resolve his own fears about what was
happening. And reached a place where he was in the end very accepting and very loving. But that took time.
(08:06):
I've heard many stories from people in the takeaway is, is don't always judge the first response
someone has as their final response. We've had a longer time to think about it and just unload
this on them. And now they've got a process. It's we need to give them the grace to go through whatever
they need to get to their, of say, it's destination, but to where they change over time. Yeah.
(08:30):
And it is, it can feel, it's, you know, that's so important to not put too much weight even
to positive reactions to understand that even positive reactions, you know, a couple of months later,
my mom started saying things like, are you sure? Is this just a phase? How, I'm not sure this could
actually, you know, she, she kind of had her own way of working through it. But those,
(08:56):
those reactions evolve over time. You said the kids felt sad. What do you think the basis of their sadness
was? You, you know, I, I've come to understand that it was more about the divorce, more about the fact
that we were not going to be living in the same house together. So when a man is weighing on the
decision to come out, you know, to his wife and family, because mostly men in your group as I
(09:18):
understand it, weight is today, you know, he thinks of all the possible repercussions and says, is
it worth it? You know, or do I just let, let the clock run out and I'll just, you know, stick it out,
I'll stay with this and I'll just be who I appear to be. And not do anything and how do you advise
them to look at that? I have not worked with a single person who ever said, I'm so, I so regret
(09:44):
that I did this. Even when there have been very difficult outcomes, I had, you know, it's rare,
but I have had some people who have lost family whose children have written them off. And their loss
is profound. And, but even in those circumstances, the idea of I don't have to live in secrecy anymore,
(10:09):
I can feel good about my integrity. The benefit of that is, is hard to know the magnitude of until
it happens. You could, you can tell people that you're going to feel this sense of relief and
freedom that means more than anything. But until you feel it, you have a hard time really believing
(10:33):
it. So it's, you know, it's letting them know that through this process, these are some of the
things you can expect. These are some of the things that you're going to struggle with. But here
are some of the answers and here are some of the ways to work through them. Helps encourages the
sense that it might be worth it. And then when they see people who, you know, like you or me or
(10:56):
other people who are like, we're on the side where we just live our lives now. We happen to be gay men,
but that's not really the focus of our lives. We're just people living lives and having relationships.
And suddenly those things at first, like, oh, I'm going to go on a gay date. I'm going to have gay sex.
And I'm going to have a gay this. Suddenly, I don't. I just have relationships and people in my lights and,
you know, reaching that place just takes some time to break through.
(11:22):
More of my interview with William in just a moment. But first, I'd like to recommend his book,
Coming True, Seeking Truth and Self Later in Life. I wish this book was available when I was on my
own coming out journey. William plots out the journey of self-discovery and authenticity, essentially
creating the manual for men who find themselves exploring their truth around their sexual identity
(11:46):
after living outwardly as straight. In the book he weaves insights and stories from his 10 years
facilitating Amin's therapy group where the participants focused on exploring and accepting their
sexual identity. Again, the book is coming true, Seeking Truth and Self Later in Life, but today's guests
William Brown. The more books and online resources about coming out late in life is at OutLateWithDabid.com.
(12:09):
Yeah, it's hard to go from the days where your tears running down your face. You have a headache and
you're not sleeping and your mind is obsessing to where now it's like, I'm kidding. Sometimes I'm literally
kidding. Yeah. When I, when I get up in the morning and laugh and say, you know, I had a great life,
loved all that I experienced, so no regrets for there, but that the dimensions I never expected
(12:34):
to change and how I feel. But then there's a little guilt to it. I must admit, in my case,
little guilt, because you say, I'm feeling so good, you know, knowing though what I went through and
what others went through. Yeah. Yeah. People feel more guilt and shame related to choices that
ended up hurting people we love. Then they do about their sexuality. They can reach peace around
(13:00):
sexual identity more easily, but that piece of, you know, that there are people that I love that
were hurt by some of the decisions and choices I made is something that takes some time to resolve.
And unfortunately, we can't go back and change them and many of us, as you said, wouldn't I wouldn't,
(13:21):
I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything really because the blessings are so big from, from some of
those choices, but all I can do now is live my life as somebody who's going to try to be honest
and forthright, intransparent and not live with secrets anymore. And just by living that way,
(13:44):
I'm changing things and that's all I can do to really correct that in the long run. But
resounding can be more than, they can be more present for those in your life that are still there as well.
It is. I mean, that's the thing they can benefit from. Yeah. We don't recognize how big of the gap
we built between ourselves and other people. I describe it as kind of this cushion that we built
(14:06):
up around this secret. And it was between us and everyone we loved. And now in its gone,
all of those people have room to be closer to us and we have room to be closer to them.
Again, that evolution takes a little time, but it's one of those things until you get some perspective,
you don't even realize how much of that space existed between you and the rest of the world.
(14:30):
You talk about that someone hold onto these faulty beliefs that hold them back.
We can maybe kind of touch on some of those faulty beliefs that you're outlining like being gay is a choice.
Yeah. Yeah. We hear it and we still continue to hear it in some circles that this is a choice.
And I always say people who come out later in life are the poster children for this
(14:52):
not being a choice because we did try to choose. We chose to try to be straight and it just couldn't
work. So that's my, you know, humorous way of saying this doesn't even make sense.
But we won't hold on to that in order to try to keep ourselves away from the fear and all of that
stuff. There are all kinds of beliefs that the world is going to end. I'm going to lose my job.
(15:14):
I'm going to be homeless that people will reject me and I will never have connection or relationship
ever again in life. There are beliefs that, you know, as in my case, some people have had sexual
abuse histories that that's why this happened and it caused it and that's all it was.
And it's very sad when those get conflated. And then there could be a belief that it's too late,
(15:42):
too old. It's just too late for me. It's too late for everybody.
And all of those help us hold on to denial and help us avoid kind of stepping into,
into kind of being our full selves. The way I tell people that visit my home, they see this
sitting on one of my tables and said, I didn't choose to be gay. I just got lucky.
(16:04):
So, uh-huh, uh-huh. So, you know, that's the way I look at it. Yeah.
Another faulty belief is same-sex attraction. It's just a phase. It'll go away.
And there, you know, and we can find reasons to believe that that it's, you know,
all guys look at each other in the shower. Of course, we notice each other's bodies.
It's, you know, how do you not do that? That this is, you know, just, I'm just kind of
(16:31):
young and horny and interested in anything and this will just go away. And once I just commit to,
to my marriage and to that that this will just peter out over time.
And that's simply not true. When it's something that is just naturally encoded in who we are,
(16:52):
it's not like I can, I'm right-handed. I can't suddenly wake up tomorrow and say, well,
I'm left-handed. It's never going to change.
That kind of leads into the next faulty belief that you had is,
one way of it to manage a same-sex attraction, what pursuing a straight relationship?
And people believe that, that I'll be able to make this work. And that's where, you know, sometimes
(17:17):
married men who are closeted will find another married man who is closeted in their lives and
explore this a little bit and think, well, I got this, I got this, it's fine. I'm going to be able to
just scratch this itch once in a while and and all will be well. But it's still an incomplete
experience. It's still not being able to live where our attractions and who we love
(17:42):
and what's meaningful to us are not in alignment. And it's the misalignment over time that becomes
unbearable. The last two really are the ones that that struck me, the Armageddon factory,
you know, the fear of hopelessness and the lose everything if I come out.
Yes. And that is noted, I started using that term, the Armageddon factory years ago because it's
(18:08):
so common, it's just this belief that everything will end, the world will end, I will lose everything.
I will be destitute and alone and living under a bridge and that's really the only outcome.
And that we, our minds kind of build that story to help protect us,
(18:28):
to try to maintain the denial of the thing we're so afraid of. And then we only look for evidence
that that's true. Right? We don't look around and go, oh wait, there are other perfectly happy
functioning gay people in the world who have full happy life. We don't even notice that.
The one else could be true. Question. Exactly. It's exactly, but it's true to nearly everyone who's
(18:53):
been down this road. And for me personally, where I came out at 59, I'm now 64, you know, I'm just
too old to start over. Yeah. Yeah. No, first there's this belief that, you know, I'm just too old,
no one will want me. I'm going to be alone forever. Gay people are not going to like me either,
(19:15):
because I was married and I'm going to have no community at all. And those things could not be
further from the truth. And we don't have to look that far. We can look at, there are all kinds of
people who, for whatever reason, find themselves single later in life, whether it's through divorce,
whether it's through the death of a partner, those kinds of things. And people have been able to
(19:39):
find new lives and new relationships and those kinds of things. But it also speaks to the idea that
many people, especially many who come out later in life have this deep sadness about what they missed.
Then I'm missing something because I didn't get to have all those experiences. So I'm coming out.
(19:59):
And I'm, I'm going to be with all these people who've had all of these experiences. And I didn't
have them. And so I'm too far behind. I can't catch up. I'm never going to be able to have that. When in
fact, many of us learned a lot of really important skills around relationship and commitment. And
following through and sticking through things when they're hard. In fact, we're actually more prepared
(20:24):
oftentimes for really quality relationship than some of our peers are.
Intellectual and emotional maturity that we don't give ourselves credit for because we're stuck in
the overwhelming fear of hurting others. We stop to look at ourselves to say, oh, there has been a lot
I have worked through. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of my sexual orientation. I still have those skills.
(20:46):
So when someone is stuck in a habit, overwhelming fear of hurting someone, you know,
that need to do the right thing. How do you help them get past that hurdle to look at what the
future could possibly be like if they take a moment in pause? Well, first, it's, you know,
that process of credit, what we're talking about so far, which is understanding my own story and
how did I get here? Then simplifying the idea, what is my sexual identity? Making peace with what
(21:14):
that is and often it begins with a not straight. Sometimes it evolves to I'm bisexual. Sometimes that
evolves to I'm gay. And, you know, once we get solid with kind of what is our truth, then we're
going to be able to sit in a place to share our truth with a little more, a shortness, a little more
confidence and begin this next stage of things with what I like to call a posture of good news.
(21:43):
Because oftentimes, you know, people will sit down and be like, I've got this terrible thing to
tell you and I know you're going to be angry and it's horrible and we've already told them what
they're supposed to feel. But if we sit down and at least internally have a posture of,
this is a good thing that I've come to accept who I am and that I'm choosing to live true and
(22:08):
authentically. And if I can hold that posture as I have these difficult conversations, my whole
approach is going to change. The look in my eye is going to change. The reality of my emotions are
going to change. When I know and believe that it's actually good news that I know who I am and I'm
(22:29):
ready to talk about it. So when you're actually prepared to have that conscious conversation with your
spouse, is there a right or wrong time or place to have that? Yes and no. Right. Number one,
not having it is the only wrong thing. That is the only thing that becomes difficult.
(22:50):
Sometimes we can get too focused on, I got to find just the right time and just the right place.
It's got to be exactly perfect and it's another way to avoid that conversation because a perfect time
doesn't exist. Right. I give a lot of guidelines and suggestions about if this is a disclosure
that has not been discovered by a spouse where I am initiating this conversation, things that are
(23:13):
most important are a sense of privacy. Don't go out to a dinner at a restaurant and share this
information. It's going to explode, I promise. Have time available. Be honest. Be honest with your
emotions. Some people think, well, I've got to be strong while I talk about this because they're
(23:34):
going to fall apart. But that communicates that this isn't a big deal to me. And so being really
honest with the pain and how hard this is is important. And then being sure to get to the essential
truth about your sexual identity, don't beat around the bush. So say, I feel attraction for men.
(23:55):
Say I'm gay. Your spouse needs to hear the words. And it's the gift we give them because when they
have to wait for that or it's not clear, they're left not knowing what's true and holding on to some hope
(24:15):
that isn't really fair to continue to give them around this reality. So, you know, giving this,
being honest with emotions, having privacy, getting to the truth, but not feeling a pull to have
all the answers in those conversations. It's okay to say, I don't know. I want to work on that with
(24:38):
you. I'm not sure because that's often true, right? Does this mean you want to divorce and want to
marry some other man? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that yet. So, am being...
You say those after you reveal that truth through the I am gay, I'm attracted to men. How
were you wished to frame it? How much does the receiver hearing that actually hear after those words?
(25:03):
It depends on the person. And this is where, you know, every spouse is a different person.
And they will bring their own sense of beliefs to the table and some of those might get challenged
on all kinds of levels. But it starts an intense roller coaster ride for them.
(25:26):
Should they be prepared to the person's disclosing tell everything? Or should...
Yeah. I think the essential truth is what's most important.
Essential truth, I like that. And being guarded on some things, you don't have to share every detail
of everything that's ever happened related to this chair. And I know that might sound cold.
(25:47):
And there are some situations where if you feel like, if I need to share this to feel like I'm
being fully honest, or if there are things that your spouse is going to come to know, then tell them.
Let's stop the surprises, right? Let's head those off at the pass.
(26:07):
But the essential truth is what's most important because it really is the thing.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map
a course to achieve the things you really want. Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt
(26:30):
that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward
to discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
(26:53):
You're listening to Outlate with David.
What have you seen in your experience in research? Couples staying together,
divorcing, being in a mixed orientation marriage? I'll start with that. A mixed orientation
marriage is where we have two people who are married and one of them is straight and one of them
(27:14):
is not. I wish I could say I've seen lots of people make that situation work really well. I have not.
That does not mean it cannot. It just means I have not worked with people who have found a way to make
that work in a way that flourished. More often than not, this ends in separation, sometimes divorce.
(27:36):
It is the more common outcome, but it's not one that has to be decided the day of.
It can take a little time to work into that decision. My wife and I was more than a year after
disclosure when we got divorced. When our divorce became final, we took a lot of time with it.
(27:58):
There's no prescription on how that has to work, but research is limited. Research shows that
if the issue is homosexuality, marriages tend to last no longer than three years after disclosure.
If the issue is more truly bisexuality, on average, marriages last seven to ten years after disclosure.
(28:22):
How does one begin that new chapter as a gay man finding community self-acceptance?
I'm moving forward. Yeah, it's a matter of, I call it starting with some immersion experiences.
Not jumping in the deep end of the pool immersion, but starting to go to places where the assumption
(28:42):
that everyone here is gay, right? A gay bar or some event like that, where your presence is coming out.
You don't have to do anything. Yeah, you don't have to say anything. You don't have to do anything.
It's just an assumption. To start to get exposure to the greater community and understand that this
community is vast and wide and is varied as any other. Sometimes for some people it's going to a church
(29:09):
that has an LGBT focus if faith was important to them. Understanding that there's a lane for everybody
and what you believe that can exist with your sexual identity. As much exposure to those things
as possible, getting comfortable with them. I have many clients who would, they're like, "I've
(29:31):
never been to a gay bar. I don't want to ever go to a gay bar." They go to the gay bar for the first
time and they're like, "I hated it. It was as bad as I thought. It's terrible." Six months later,
they know everybody's name. The first immersion experience doesn't have to feel
but having those, getting a broad view of what this could mean, getting in meet-up groups,
(29:52):
wilderness groups, hiking groups, game playing groups, all kinds of things. It doesn't mean your whole
life is going to be gay for the rest of your life with only gay people but it is important to get
some comfort and familiarity with the full range of people who are part of this community,
understanding that there's a place where everyone. So what are that point? Now we probably have some
(30:14):
internalized homophobia that we've drugged along and we haven't kicked it out of our head yet.
Yep. How do they recognize that and deal with that?
It's number one, first, you have to recognize that there are men who came out when they were
16 years old and they're 70 years old now and they still have a lot of internalized homophobia.
It's not unique to just people who came out late but it's whenever we start to recognize
(30:39):
and if we're in a, let's say we go to a party or something and there's a whole range of different
types of gay men there. If we are offended by certain types and we want to run away from them because
we're afraid that I'm going to be seen as one of them, that's internalized homophobia.
You know, and it's when we step into those judgments about difference that we are stepping into
(31:06):
that and we're becoming the thing that we've feared. We feared being judged as different
and suddenly we're doing it and so you have to monitor yourself and really challenge that.
So during this whole process, the word that's thrown around a lot is living authentically or being
authentic. So what does authentic or being authentic really mean to you?
(31:27):
To me it means living is who I am, no matter where I am and no matter who I'm with.
I'm not keeping secrets and one of the big things around this is around the difference between secrecy
and privacy, right? Privacy is okay and we all get to have privacy. When we're choosing secrecy out
(31:50):
of shame, that's very different. If I'm choosing to keep aspects of my life private because I want
appropriate boundaries, that's perfectly okay. It's not sitting in shame, right? And so being authentic
is really just trying to show up consistently as possible in all the aspects of my life so that
there are different versions of me that I have to play. I judge based on what I know of your story
(32:16):
that coming out was a major turning point. How do you see that actually for you and how are you
navigating your life today as a game? It is, it's almost like two different lives to be honest.
There's almost, I have these moments where I feel like I lived one life and now I've lived a
different life and oh my god, they're just two different people. When in fact, they're not. And
(32:37):
fortunately at this point, I've been able to integrate my previous life and my current life
more fully with family and friends and those kinds of things. I've been very fortunate in that.
But it really is amazing how much my world changed. I went from living my life trying to be what
(33:00):
everybody wanted me to be to becoming a life of being who I am and then being able to connect with
people authentically and honestly and truly as all of who I am. And there are many things about who I
am that didn't change. I'm still, you know, have the same curiosities. I have the same sense of humor.
(33:22):
I have the same skill sets. I have a lot of those things are consistent. We don't become a brand new person.
But I don't live with that embarrassment or that shame or that censoring anymore.
And it's amazing the number of things that have come into my life. Both professionally,
(33:42):
relationally, I have a partner. He has his parents and they become like new parents to me.
Never saw that coming. You know what I mean? They're going to be these people in my life that I love
and love me back that I had no idea would be there. What do you wish a younger self would have known?
(34:07):
I think the thing that I would want them most to know is there is nothing wrong with them.
They are not broken or damaged or less than. The most important thing is to
seek help. Find someone to talk to about this. There are people who call me and they've held a gun
(34:36):
in their hand the night before. They've had a news surrounding them. And there are people who are in
those situations and don't call this is heavy stuff. It's important consequential stuff. Not to be
taken lightly. And so the the idea when I talk about find someone just reach out.
(34:58):
Know that I'm not the first and I'm not going to be the last. And there is help out there.
The darkest days can lead to the brightest days. And so being in that dark place sometimes is the
beginning of something wonderful. If we can just reach out and ask for a little help.
(35:22):
Well I'm going to thank you very much for sharing your personal story being vulnerable yourself and
also the experience and the insight that you gained through the years that you've hosted your own
group of men who were trying to understand their sexuality. These are powerful stories. And as you
and I both know that sharing the stories will help someone else. Yes. Something else will hear this
(35:42):
and help them to the next step of finding the help that they need to understand what their
journey is and what their destination could be. And I appreciate you bet and I appreciate certainly
the work you do and and bringing these stories to people you know again it just there are oftentimes
where we step into these roles and they're going to be ways that we don't know the difference that
(36:07):
you make. But just by having it out there in the world it takes it makes such a difference and
again it makes meaning from our own stories and it lets us know that we're still part of the world
and part of the community. So I appreciate very much the chance to be here and like I said for the work
that you do. Coming out is hard. Any time in life. But the later it happens the harder it gets.
(36:33):
William Brown skillfully articulates the things that hold us back from becoming our authentic cells.
From those faulty beliefs that life as we know will end to our fear of hurting others. But if there's
one thing he seems sure about if you're gay, you're gay. It's not a phase and it's not going to change
and that the darkest days can lead to the brightest days. For the closet of gay man, isolation is our
(36:57):
worst enemy. So seeking help can be the first step to understanding and acceptance. Sometimes you just
need someone to hold your hand and show you the way and I think that's what William Brown has done
with his book Coming True. That's it for now. Join us next time on Out Late with David.
To hear more episodes visit outlatewithdavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching
(37:20):
services go to davidcottoncoaching.com.
Watch the video version of this podcast at OutLateWithDavid.com
(00:04):
Hi, I'm David Cotton. I'm a father, a brother, a son. I'm a retired U.S. Air Force
Brigadier General, a former senior executive in the Department of Defense, a corporate vice
president, and now a life coach. At the age 59, I told my wife, my kids, and the world. I'm gay.
(00:31):
Join me as I talk with others who've made this coming out journey late in life to become
who they really are. You're listening to OutLateWithDavid.
My guest today is an author, a licensed professional counselor, and a man who knows
firsthand what it's like to come out later in life. At age 40, he told his wife of 18 years
(00:57):
and his children that he is gay. What he's learned since helped him create the definitive
"How To Book For Coming Out Later In Life." Join me today is Wambrown, author of the book,
"Coming True."
Welcome to OutlateWithDavid.
(01:19):
Thank you so much, David. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
In this book, I'll tell the listeners now. I wish it was the one that I had when I was going through
this journey myself. When someone has married for many years and they have kids and they're involved,
the idea of coming out gay is just terrifying, and it was for me. But in your book, "Coming True,"
you create this roadmap for doing this like a "How To Book." What was something that you wish
(01:42):
you had when you came out? I think I would have liked to have known that there's a roadmap ahead of
things that are going to happen, not that everybody's journey is exactly the same, but there are a lot
of similar markers and that the process just takes time. Having some idea of where this is going to
go and how it might go and how to work through it is kind of what I hope to be able to provide by
(02:05):
writing the book. So for you, of course, it started with your own coming out story. It was what
kicked it all. So can you tell us how that happened? I had in my 30s started experiencing some pretty
severe PTSD related to sexual abuse in my childhood. And once I started to look at that and work on
that and understand that, I was able to understand that a lot of the fear, shame, guilt I felt that was
(02:32):
part of that abuse situation had nothing to do with my own natural sexual attractions. That was the
beginning of me starting to recognize that my sexual identity was not indeed straight.
So when when when was that? How old are you? I was about 38, 39 years old and I went through a lot
(02:53):
of really great therapy around that. And it kind of left me at that point thinking, well, I'm not
straight. Maybe I'm bisexual. Maybe I can just make this work and and you know, I'll just keep this
to myself and I won't do anything about it. And I ended up just becoming more and more depressed,
more and more anxious as I started to realize, gosh, this is a thing I can't make go away. And then
(03:17):
the second thing that happened in my life around the same time my oldest child started to identify
is something other than straight. She was 14 years old. It took an incredible amount of courage on her
end to kind of share this and and talk about it and it became really hard for me as a dad to say, wow,
(03:39):
you're you're facing this and I'm not. So you're going through this process in parallel?
Was it absolutely then? Yes. And so kind of the pressures of those two things together
led me to seek some help start to understand what are my options. How could I do this? How do I start to
talk about it? And it led me to start the disclosure process with my wife and then the subsequent
(04:05):
changes that happened afterwards. So those were the two events that precipitated change in my story.
So when you said you started the disclosure process to your wife as I understand from your book,
she asked you questions. She did. I was just experiencing such levels of depression and anxiety that
it was clear something was wrong. By happenstance I ended up with a therapist who had walked this path
(04:30):
before me and at some point she started to look at his website and find out a few more things about him
and realized that was one of the spaces that he worked on. So that led her to ask the question,
is this something that's on the table? It was something I was preparing to have those conversations
but she bravely initiated it and I had to meet her there and say, you know what, yes,
(04:54):
this is the issue that I've been struggling with. But it began to run into that when you.
She was scared. She was concerned, afraid, did not know where things would go.
She also was amazingly understanding and wanted to give me time and space to continue to work on
(05:15):
this. She wanted some answers and at that moment I wasn't even ready to say, I am gay. I just was able
to say this is the thing I'm looking at. So she waited patiently for me to continue to work on that
till the day came where I was able to say, you know what, this is the truth about me.
When did you say those three words? I am gay. I said those to her about three months later.
(05:42):
When did you say them to yourself? Probably a couple of months before she asked the first question
that I was starting to have that language to myself and understanding what that word meant.
Because one of the things that I've noticed in the work that I do is lots of us had this definition
of what being gay meant and it meant a certain lifestyle or a certain mannerism or certain
(06:04):
all of these things that we were like, well, I'm not like that. So I'm not gay. So I had to understand
that the definition is not about all that stuff. It's simply about my internal settings for who I'm
affectionately and sexually attracted to and that's it. And so once I was able to get that definition
clear from myself and understand that it would be okay, that she will be okay, our family will be okay.
(06:30):
I was able to, you know, start to take the steps to live it.
Once you had the conversation with her, when did you expand the bubble to then include your daughter?
It was about, it was about a month after she and I had that conversation. We kind of took that time
(06:52):
to decide between ourselves is this something we could make work in a marriage or not? And we both
reached the conclusion that we couldn't. And once we made that decision, we decided telling the kids
first was most appropriate. And then we wanted to tell our extended families very quickly.
My kids were wonderful about it. They were sad. They had some questions, but, you know, they
(07:19):
approached it very lovingly. The fact that my wife and I sat together to tell them that they could see
that we were not. There was an acrimony there that, you know, we were approaching this with loving them
first, helped with that. Our extended families were a mix of reactions. My, my mother was
(07:40):
said all the right things about, I love you no matter what. And I didn't know this was happening
and my father was not so happy about it. It took him a while to first tell me that he was not happy
about it. And then it took even longer for him to kind of resolve his own fears about what was
happening. And reached a place where he was in the end very accepting and very loving. But that took time.
(08:06):
I've heard many stories from people in the takeaway is, is don't always judge the first response
someone has as their final response. We've had a longer time to think about it and just unload
this on them. And now they've got a process. It's we need to give them the grace to go through whatever
they need to get to their, of say, it's destination, but to where they change over time. Yeah.
(08:30):
And it is, it can feel, it's, you know, that's so important to not put too much weight even
to positive reactions to understand that even positive reactions, you know, a couple of months later,
my mom started saying things like, are you sure? Is this just a phase? How, I'm not sure this could
actually, you know, she, she kind of had her own way of working through it. But those,
(08:56):
those reactions evolve over time. You said the kids felt sad. What do you think the basis of their sadness
was? You, you know, I, I've come to understand that it was more about the divorce, more about the fact
that we were not going to be living in the same house together. So when a man is weighing on the
decision to come out, you know, to his wife and family, because mostly men in your group as I
(09:18):
understand it, weight is today, you know, he thinks of all the possible repercussions and says, is
it worth it? You know, or do I just let, let the clock run out and I'll just, you know, stick it out,
I'll stay with this and I'll just be who I appear to be. And not do anything and how do you advise
them to look at that? I have not worked with a single person who ever said, I'm so, I so regret
(09:44):
that I did this. Even when there have been very difficult outcomes, I had, you know, it's rare,
but I have had some people who have lost family whose children have written them off. And their loss
is profound. And, but even in those circumstances, the idea of I don't have to live in secrecy anymore,
(10:09):
I can feel good about my integrity. The benefit of that is, is hard to know the magnitude of until
it happens. You could, you can tell people that you're going to feel this sense of relief and
freedom that means more than anything. But until you feel it, you have a hard time really believing
(10:33):
it. So it's, you know, it's letting them know that through this process, these are some of the
things you can expect. These are some of the things that you're going to struggle with. But here
are some of the answers and here are some of the ways to work through them. Helps encourages the
sense that it might be worth it. And then when they see people who, you know, like you or me or
(10:56):
other people who are like, we're on the side where we just live our lives now. We happen to be gay men,
but that's not really the focus of our lives. We're just people living lives and having relationships.
And suddenly those things at first, like, oh, I'm going to go on a gay date. I'm going to have gay sex.
And I'm going to have a gay this. Suddenly, I don't. I just have relationships and people in my lights and,
you know, reaching that place just takes some time to break through.
(11:22):
More of my interview with William in just a moment. But first, I'd like to recommend his book,
Coming True, Seeking Truth and Self Later in Life. I wish this book was available when I was on my
own coming out journey. William plots out the journey of self-discovery and authenticity, essentially
creating the manual for men who find themselves exploring their truth around their sexual identity
(11:46):
after living outwardly as straight. In the book he weaves insights and stories from his 10 years
facilitating Amin's therapy group where the participants focused on exploring and accepting their
sexual identity. Again, the book is coming true, Seeking Truth and Self Later in Life, but today's guests
William Brown. The more books and online resources about coming out late in life is at OutLateWithDabid.com.
(12:09):
Yeah, it's hard to go from the days where your tears running down your face. You have a headache and
you're not sleeping and your mind is obsessing to where now it's like, I'm kidding. Sometimes I'm literally
kidding. Yeah. When I, when I get up in the morning and laugh and say, you know, I had a great life,
loved all that I experienced, so no regrets for there, but that the dimensions I never expected
(12:34):
to change and how I feel. But then there's a little guilt to it. I must admit, in my case,
little guilt, because you say, I'm feeling so good, you know, knowing though what I went through and
what others went through. Yeah. Yeah. People feel more guilt and shame related to choices that
ended up hurting people we love. Then they do about their sexuality. They can reach peace around
(13:00):
sexual identity more easily, but that piece of, you know, that there are people that I love that
were hurt by some of the decisions and choices I made is something that takes some time to resolve.
And unfortunately, we can't go back and change them and many of us, as you said, wouldn't I wouldn't,
(13:21):
I wouldn't, I wouldn't change anything really because the blessings are so big from, from some of
those choices, but all I can do now is live my life as somebody who's going to try to be honest
and forthright, intransparent and not live with secrets anymore. And just by living that way,
(13:44):
I'm changing things and that's all I can do to really correct that in the long run. But
resounding can be more than, they can be more present for those in your life that are still there as well.
It is. I mean, that's the thing they can benefit from. Yeah. We don't recognize how big of the gap
we built between ourselves and other people. I describe it as kind of this cushion that we built
(14:06):
up around this secret. And it was between us and everyone we loved. And now in its gone,
all of those people have room to be closer to us and we have room to be closer to them.
Again, that evolution takes a little time, but it's one of those things until you get some perspective,
you don't even realize how much of that space existed between you and the rest of the world.
(14:30):
You talk about that someone hold onto these faulty beliefs that hold them back.
We can maybe kind of touch on some of those faulty beliefs that you're outlining like being gay is a choice.
Yeah. Yeah. We hear it and we still continue to hear it in some circles that this is a choice.
And I always say people who come out later in life are the poster children for this
(14:52):
not being a choice because we did try to choose. We chose to try to be straight and it just couldn't
work. So that's my, you know, humorous way of saying this doesn't even make sense.
But we won't hold on to that in order to try to keep ourselves away from the fear and all of that
stuff. There are all kinds of beliefs that the world is going to end. I'm going to lose my job.
(15:14):
I'm going to be homeless that people will reject me and I will never have connection or relationship
ever again in life. There are beliefs that, you know, as in my case, some people have had sexual
abuse histories that that's why this happened and it caused it and that's all it was.
And it's very sad when those get conflated. And then there could be a belief that it's too late,
(15:42):
too old. It's just too late for me. It's too late for everybody.
And all of those help us hold on to denial and help us avoid kind of stepping into,
into kind of being our full selves. The way I tell people that visit my home, they see this
sitting on one of my tables and said, I didn't choose to be gay. I just got lucky.
(16:04):
So, uh-huh, uh-huh. So, you know, that's the way I look at it. Yeah.
Another faulty belief is same-sex attraction. It's just a phase. It'll go away.
And there, you know, and we can find reasons to believe that that it's, you know,
all guys look at each other in the shower. Of course, we notice each other's bodies.
It's, you know, how do you not do that? That this is, you know, just, I'm just kind of
(16:31):
young and horny and interested in anything and this will just go away. And once I just commit to,
to my marriage and to that that this will just peter out over time.
And that's simply not true. When it's something that is just naturally encoded in who we are,
(16:52):
it's not like I can, I'm right-handed. I can't suddenly wake up tomorrow and say, well,
I'm left-handed. It's never going to change.
That kind of leads into the next faulty belief that you had is,
one way of it to manage a same-sex attraction, what pursuing a straight relationship?
And people believe that, that I'll be able to make this work. And that's where, you know, sometimes
(17:17):
married men who are closeted will find another married man who is closeted in their lives and
explore this a little bit and think, well, I got this, I got this, it's fine. I'm going to be able to
just scratch this itch once in a while and and all will be well. But it's still an incomplete
experience. It's still not being able to live where our attractions and who we love
(17:42):
and what's meaningful to us are not in alignment. And it's the misalignment over time that becomes
unbearable. The last two really are the ones that that struck me, the Armageddon factory,
you know, the fear of hopelessness and the lose everything if I come out.
Yes. And that is noted, I started using that term, the Armageddon factory years ago because it's
(18:08):
so common, it's just this belief that everything will end, the world will end, I will lose everything.
I will be destitute and alone and living under a bridge and that's really the only outcome.
And that we, our minds kind of build that story to help protect us,
(18:28):
to try to maintain the denial of the thing we're so afraid of. And then we only look for evidence
that that's true. Right? We don't look around and go, oh wait, there are other perfectly happy
functioning gay people in the world who have full happy life. We don't even notice that.
The one else could be true. Question. Exactly. It's exactly, but it's true to nearly everyone who's
(18:53):
been down this road. And for me personally, where I came out at 59, I'm now 64, you know, I'm just
too old to start over. Yeah. Yeah. No, first there's this belief that, you know, I'm just too old,
no one will want me. I'm going to be alone forever. Gay people are not going to like me either,
(19:15):
because I was married and I'm going to have no community at all. And those things could not be
further from the truth. And we don't have to look that far. We can look at, there are all kinds of
people who, for whatever reason, find themselves single later in life, whether it's through divorce,
whether it's through the death of a partner, those kinds of things. And people have been able to
(19:39):
find new lives and new relationships and those kinds of things. But it also speaks to the idea that
many people, especially many who come out later in life have this deep sadness about what they missed.
Then I'm missing something because I didn't get to have all those experiences. So I'm coming out.
(19:59):
And I'm, I'm going to be with all these people who've had all of these experiences. And I didn't
have them. And so I'm too far behind. I can't catch up. I'm never going to be able to have that. When in
fact, many of us learned a lot of really important skills around relationship and commitment. And
following through and sticking through things when they're hard. In fact, we're actually more prepared
(20:24):
oftentimes for really quality relationship than some of our peers are.
Intellectual and emotional maturity that we don't give ourselves credit for because we're stuck in
the overwhelming fear of hurting others. We stop to look at ourselves to say, oh, there has been a lot
I have worked through. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of my sexual orientation. I still have those skills.
(20:46):
So when someone is stuck in a habit, overwhelming fear of hurting someone, you know,
that need to do the right thing. How do you help them get past that hurdle to look at what the
future could possibly be like if they take a moment in pause? Well, first, it's, you know,
that process of credit, what we're talking about so far, which is understanding my own story and
how did I get here? Then simplifying the idea, what is my sexual identity? Making peace with what
(21:14):
that is and often it begins with a not straight. Sometimes it evolves to I'm bisexual. Sometimes that
evolves to I'm gay. And, you know, once we get solid with kind of what is our truth, then we're
going to be able to sit in a place to share our truth with a little more, a shortness, a little more
confidence and begin this next stage of things with what I like to call a posture of good news.
(21:43):
Because oftentimes, you know, people will sit down and be like, I've got this terrible thing to
tell you and I know you're going to be angry and it's horrible and we've already told them what
they're supposed to feel. But if we sit down and at least internally have a posture of,
this is a good thing that I've come to accept who I am and that I'm choosing to live true and
(22:08):
authentically. And if I can hold that posture as I have these difficult conversations, my whole
approach is going to change. The look in my eye is going to change. The reality of my emotions are
going to change. When I know and believe that it's actually good news that I know who I am and I'm
(22:29):
ready to talk about it. So when you're actually prepared to have that conscious conversation with your
spouse, is there a right or wrong time or place to have that? Yes and no. Right. Number one,
not having it is the only wrong thing. That is the only thing that becomes difficult.
(22:50):
Sometimes we can get too focused on, I got to find just the right time and just the right place.
It's got to be exactly perfect and it's another way to avoid that conversation because a perfect time
doesn't exist. Right. I give a lot of guidelines and suggestions about if this is a disclosure
that has not been discovered by a spouse where I am initiating this conversation, things that are
(23:13):
most important are a sense of privacy. Don't go out to a dinner at a restaurant and share this
information. It's going to explode, I promise. Have time available. Be honest. Be honest with your
emotions. Some people think, well, I've got to be strong while I talk about this because they're
(23:34):
going to fall apart. But that communicates that this isn't a big deal to me. And so being really
honest with the pain and how hard this is is important. And then being sure to get to the essential
truth about your sexual identity, don't beat around the bush. So say, I feel attraction for men.
(23:55):
Say I'm gay. Your spouse needs to hear the words. And it's the gift we give them because when they
have to wait for that or it's not clear, they're left not knowing what's true and holding on to some hope
(24:15):
that isn't really fair to continue to give them around this reality. So, you know, giving this,
being honest with emotions, having privacy, getting to the truth, but not feeling a pull to have
all the answers in those conversations. It's okay to say, I don't know. I want to work on that with
(24:38):
you. I'm not sure because that's often true, right? Does this mean you want to divorce and want to
marry some other man? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that yet. So, am being...
You say those after you reveal that truth through the I am gay, I'm attracted to men. How
were you wished to frame it? How much does the receiver hearing that actually hear after those words?
(25:03):
It depends on the person. And this is where, you know, every spouse is a different person.
And they will bring their own sense of beliefs to the table and some of those might get challenged
on all kinds of levels. But it starts an intense roller coaster ride for them.
(25:26):
Should they be prepared to the person's disclosing tell everything? Or should...
Yeah. I think the essential truth is what's most important.
Essential truth, I like that. And being guarded on some things, you don't have to share every detail
of everything that's ever happened related to this chair. And I know that might sound cold.
(25:47):
And there are some situations where if you feel like, if I need to share this to feel like I'm
being fully honest, or if there are things that your spouse is going to come to know, then tell them.
Let's stop the surprises, right? Let's head those off at the pass.
(26:07):
But the essential truth is what's most important because it really is the thing.
As a life coach, I'm committed to help you discover the passions in your life and help you map
a course to achieve the things you really want. Together we will unwind those persistent self-doubt
(26:30):
that are holding you back. You'll begin to see your passions more clearly and set achievable goals.
Throughout your journey, I'll be there to challenge and encourage you in moving forward
to discover your authentic self. For more information about my personal life coaching services,
or to arrange a complimentary consultation, visit davidcottoncoaching.com.
(26:53):
You're listening to Outlate with David.
What have you seen in your experience in research? Couples staying together,
divorcing, being in a mixed orientation marriage? I'll start with that. A mixed orientation
marriage is where we have two people who are married and one of them is straight and one of them
(27:14):
is not. I wish I could say I've seen lots of people make that situation work really well. I have not.
That does not mean it cannot. It just means I have not worked with people who have found a way to make
that work in a way that flourished. More often than not, this ends in separation, sometimes divorce.
(27:36):
It is the more common outcome, but it's not one that has to be decided the day of.
It can take a little time to work into that decision. My wife and I was more than a year after
disclosure when we got divorced. When our divorce became final, we took a lot of time with it.
(27:58):
There's no prescription on how that has to work, but research is limited. Research shows that
if the issue is homosexuality, marriages tend to last no longer than three years after disclosure.
If the issue is more truly bisexuality, on average, marriages last seven to ten years after disclosure.
(28:22):
How does one begin that new chapter as a gay man finding community self-acceptance?
I'm moving forward. Yeah, it's a matter of, I call it starting with some immersion experiences.
Not jumping in the deep end of the pool immersion, but starting to go to places where the assumption
(28:42):
that everyone here is gay, right? A gay bar or some event like that, where your presence is coming out.
You don't have to do anything. Yeah, you don't have to say anything. You don't have to do anything.
It's just an assumption. To start to get exposure to the greater community and understand that this
community is vast and wide and is varied as any other. Sometimes for some people it's going to a church
(29:09):
that has an LGBT focus if faith was important to them. Understanding that there's a lane for everybody
and what you believe that can exist with your sexual identity. As much exposure to those things
as possible, getting comfortable with them. I have many clients who would, they're like, "I've
(29:31):
never been to a gay bar. I don't want to ever go to a gay bar." They go to the gay bar for the first
time and they're like, "I hated it. It was as bad as I thought. It's terrible." Six months later,
they know everybody's name. The first immersion experience doesn't have to feel
but having those, getting a broad view of what this could mean, getting in meet-up groups,
(29:52):
wilderness groups, hiking groups, game playing groups, all kinds of things. It doesn't mean your whole
life is going to be gay for the rest of your life with only gay people but it is important to get
some comfort and familiarity with the full range of people who are part of this community,
understanding that there's a place where everyone. So what are that point? Now we probably have some
(30:14):
internalized homophobia that we've drugged along and we haven't kicked it out of our head yet.
Yep. How do they recognize that and deal with that?
It's number one, first, you have to recognize that there are men who came out when they were
16 years old and they're 70 years old now and they still have a lot of internalized homophobia.
It's not unique to just people who came out late but it's whenever we start to recognize
(30:39):
and if we're in a, let's say we go to a party or something and there's a whole range of different
types of gay men there. If we are offended by certain types and we want to run away from them because
we're afraid that I'm going to be seen as one of them, that's internalized homophobia.
You know, and it's when we step into those judgments about difference that we are stepping into
(31:06):
that and we're becoming the thing that we've feared. We feared being judged as different
and suddenly we're doing it and so you have to monitor yourself and really challenge that.
So during this whole process, the word that's thrown around a lot is living authentically or being
authentic. So what does authentic or being authentic really mean to you?
(31:27):
To me it means living is who I am, no matter where I am and no matter who I'm with.
I'm not keeping secrets and one of the big things around this is around the difference between secrecy
and privacy, right? Privacy is okay and we all get to have privacy. When we're choosing secrecy out
(31:50):
of shame, that's very different. If I'm choosing to keep aspects of my life private because I want
appropriate boundaries, that's perfectly okay. It's not sitting in shame, right? And so being authentic
is really just trying to show up consistently as possible in all the aspects of my life so that
there are different versions of me that I have to play. I judge based on what I know of your story
(32:16):
that coming out was a major turning point. How do you see that actually for you and how are you
navigating your life today as a game? It is, it's almost like two different lives to be honest.
There's almost, I have these moments where I feel like I lived one life and now I've lived a
different life and oh my god, they're just two different people. When in fact, they're not. And
(32:37):
fortunately at this point, I've been able to integrate my previous life and my current life
more fully with family and friends and those kinds of things. I've been very fortunate in that.
But it really is amazing how much my world changed. I went from living my life trying to be what
(33:00):
everybody wanted me to be to becoming a life of being who I am and then being able to connect with
people authentically and honestly and truly as all of who I am. And there are many things about who I
am that didn't change. I'm still, you know, have the same curiosities. I have the same sense of humor.
(33:22):
I have the same skill sets. I have a lot of those things are consistent. We don't become a brand new person.
But I don't live with that embarrassment or that shame or that censoring anymore.
And it's amazing the number of things that have come into my life. Both professionally,
(33:42):
relationally, I have a partner. He has his parents and they become like new parents to me.
Never saw that coming. You know what I mean? They're going to be these people in my life that I love
and love me back that I had no idea would be there. What do you wish a younger self would have known?
(34:07):
I think the thing that I would want them most to know is there is nothing wrong with them.
They are not broken or damaged or less than. The most important thing is to
seek help. Find someone to talk to about this. There are people who call me and they've held a gun
(34:36):
in their hand the night before. They've had a news surrounding them. And there are people who are in
those situations and don't call this is heavy stuff. It's important consequential stuff. Not to be
taken lightly. And so the the idea when I talk about find someone just reach out.
(34:58):
Know that I'm not the first and I'm not going to be the last. And there is help out there.
The darkest days can lead to the brightest days. And so being in that dark place sometimes is the
beginning of something wonderful. If we can just reach out and ask for a little help.
(35:22):
Well I'm going to thank you very much for sharing your personal story being vulnerable yourself and
also the experience and the insight that you gained through the years that you've hosted your own
group of men who were trying to understand their sexuality. These are powerful stories. And as you
and I both know that sharing the stories will help someone else. Yes. Something else will hear this
(35:42):
and help them to the next step of finding the help that they need to understand what their
journey is and what their destination could be. And I appreciate you bet and I appreciate certainly
the work you do and and bringing these stories to people you know again it just there are oftentimes
where we step into these roles and they're going to be ways that we don't know the difference that
(36:07):
you make. But just by having it out there in the world it takes it makes such a difference and
again it makes meaning from our own stories and it lets us know that we're still part of the world
and part of the community. So I appreciate very much the chance to be here and like I said for the work
that you do. Coming out is hard. Any time in life. But the later it happens the harder it gets.
(36:33):
William Brown skillfully articulates the things that hold us back from becoming our authentic cells.
From those faulty beliefs that life as we know will end to our fear of hurting others. But if there's
one thing he seems sure about if you're gay, you're gay. It's not a phase and it's not going to change
and that the darkest days can lead to the brightest days. For the closet of gay man, isolation is our
(36:57):
worst enemy. So seeking help can be the first step to understanding and acceptance. Sometimes you just
need someone to hold your hand and show you the way and I think that's what William Brown has done
with his book Coming True. That's it for now. Join us next time on Out Late with David.
To hear more episodes visit outlatewithdavid.com and to learn more about personal life coaching
(37:20):
services go to davidcottoncoaching.com.
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